# When prop and rudder come out of sea



## Robert S. Smith (Feb 14, 2016)

Hello - I am writing about a trip I took on the Chitral between Kobe (Jp) and Hong Kong and we hit a typhoon Judy, 63? The sea was so rough that the ship pitched so that the stern came out of the water so prop and rudder were in the air. What is the technical term for when this happens? What are the consequences when this happens? The ship is not steerable?

I was a steward so don't have the technical language or understanding for when this happens.
Thanks,
Bob Smith


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Over speed and possible trip of main engine.

In such weather conditions steerage would always be difficult. The "Iron Mike" would be off and man at the wheel would be the norm in the Bluies I sailed in. "Old Man" in the wheelhouse throughout monitoring conditions, heading and speed.

BW

J


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Robert S. Smith said:


> Hello - I am writing about a trip I took on the Chitral between Kobe (Jp) and Hong Kong and we hit a typhoon Judy, 63? The sea was so rough that the ship pitched so that the stern came out of the water so prop and rudder were in the air. What is the technical term for when this happens? What are the consequences when this happens? The ship is not steerable?
> 
> I was a steward so don't have the technical language or understanding for when this happens.
> Thanks,
> Bob Smith



"Ship steering badly." "Unable to maintaining steerage."

When prop and rudder come out of the sea and at the same time the bow is buried in the sea you could say the she is "Heavily pitching." or "Pitching and rolling heavily." 

Unlikely the whole rudder and propeller out of the sea. If it does it would be for seconds because once the stern roses it will buried right right down in the sea. Of course the rudder is out of use for 50% of the time and likely the propeller revolutions are drastically reduced.

For descriptions. Flat sea, table set for dinner. Moderate sea. Put the ropes on the chairs and wet the table cloth. Storm, No soup. Full Storm: Sandwiches. Full disaster: condensed mill & water or barley sweets.

Stephen


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Hi Robert,

The is no special term that I remember. Just "severe" or "extreme" pitching/rolling and, in the engine room, overspeeding/underspeeding, as the prop is free in the air, then buried suddenly under water. In extreme cases, you would need to operate manually the engine throttle. Under heavy pitching, the engine governor would handle the momentary overspeed and then pick up/correct the momentary underspeed as the propellor "digs" back into the water. 

If you had hard over helm during such an event, for example, turning head-on into an oncoming wave, it may also be possible that the pressure relief valves would blow on the steering gear and you would have to keep a good eye on the level of hydraulic oil and make-up tank. Again, under heavy conditions, all would be fine and the hunting gear would quickly reset the helm to the correct angle.

One thing you would have to check is the main engine sump level. If, due to the pitching/rolling the level dropped, the engine would cut out. This happened not so long ago to a Norwegian ferry where, to save a buck or two, they had filled the sump to the bare minimum. As the vessel turned into a beam sea, all power was lost and they could not restart the engine.

In heavy conditions, it would also be wise to put two generators on the board, just in case one cut out.

Rgds.
Dave


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## Robert S. Smith (Feb 14, 2016)

jmcg said:


> Over speed and possible trip of main engine.
> 
> In such weather conditions steerage would always be difficult. The "Iron Mike" would be off and man at the wheel would be the norm in the Bluies I sailed in. "Old Man" in the wheelhouse throughout monitoring conditions, heading and speed.
> 
> ...


Thanks - Clarification: Sorry for lack of terminology but I was in catering department afterall! "Iron Mike" is this the auto pilot system on board ship? "Over speed" - does this mean the ship is being driven too fast? and possible "trip" of main engine - not sure what this means = malfunction? 
Cheers
Bob


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

Robert S. Smith said:


> Thanks - Clarification: Sorry for lack of terminology but I was in catering department afterall! "Iron Mike" is this the auto pilot system on board ship? "Over speed" - does this mean the ship is being driven too fast? and possible "trip" of main engine - not sure what this means = malfunction?
> Cheers
> Bob


When I was eng sprog 2nd trip n Atlantic causeway, in heavy seas/storm conditions there was a strategically placed stack of steel washers which were adjusted accordingly under the governor arm to stop it shutting off fuel when the screw became airborne.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Dave,

Bob is writing from a ship in 1964, He might be talking about a ship with a steam steering engine fitted aft in the poop directly over the rudder and with a triple expansion main engine! In heavy weather the auto pilot would off and the quartermaster would be steering manually.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Bob,

Sorry, I missed the name of the ship. You were CHITRAL, P&O. 13,821 grt, Length 557 ft, beam 70.2 ft. 5 hatches, 231 passenger in one class. 196 crew. Single Screw, Parsons geared turbines from Penhoet, St Nazaire. 12,500 S.H.P. 

Stephen


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Robert @ #5

The "Iron Mike" was a mechanism and a supporting component of the automated steering system . I would rather doubt that it could be described as an "auto pilot" system. Would give way to an AB on the wheel when approaching/departing port. The Iron Mike in operation at sea also freed up a member of the deck crowd for other duties.

Overspeed of the engine could be resultant of propeller free of the water. ME could trip out. ie. shut down, with generators to follow. Good folk (Engineering Dept) are more learned than I am on subject matter. I am but a mere cowboy spanner-man!

In the conditions you describe I would have imagined a reduced speed unless he was trying to get ahead of it (typhoon).

Hope this helps.

Good thread.👍

BW
J


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Iron Mike.... is what it actually is... an 'automatic steering system'... or 'auto pilot'. The term auto pilot is a means to keep the heading. It doesn't 'pilot' the ship anywhere until someone sets the heading.

SJC

*Iron Mike and the Compass*
Posted on December 31, 2010 by azimuth64
Iron Mike is the old sailor’s name for the autopilot. These days he is likely to go by the name “Otto” or some other variation of the name.


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## AlbieR (May 18, 2007)

I don't know if it was a standard phrase but during many watches at the engine controls in the Indian Ocean when the governor was unable to control the revs we called it "surging"


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Yes AlbieR, you are right:
Surge = Over revving of the engine (prop out in the air, no rsistance to turning).
Stall = Under revving of the engine (Braking for on the prop).

Very familiar terms (unfortunately!) with gas turbines!

Also, on low revs on a Diesel engined ship, crud (oil, soot, unburned fuel) can build up in the turbocharger - This can turn the turbocharger into a gas turbine with resultant surging - This may be fatal for the TC! This happened on Barber Perseus. On Barber Priam, at slow speeds, we would briefly go to full speed to blow all the crud out.

Rgds.
Dave


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Seeing as Chitral was a steam turbine vessel, we have to add another layer to the case - The reduction gearbox.

Prop out - surge of prop with back torque on the driven end, forcing the gear teeth. 
Prop back in - stall of prop, braking of gearbox, but the turbine woud be trying to catch up!

Very difficult, and juggling the boiler water level at the same time to prevent a flame-out!

Rgds.
Dave


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## AlbieR (May 18, 2007)

Thanks Dave, glad to know my memory is still sound. Was the condition you described with the turbos called "barking", could be cheek clenching frightening!!
Albie


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

No Albie, I don't know if there was a term for it. From a fellow engineer who was onboard her, there was first a HT alarm, then an overspeed alarm. The TCs were normally 8.5 (7-9), 8.0 (4-6) and 7.5 (1-3) x1000 rpm. This event bent the gauge hand which was calibrated at 0-12.5 x 1000 rpm!

Apparently, the only way to stop it was to blank the intake off with floor plates, thus strangling it of air and then sort of blank off the exhaust from the manifold. 

Another effect of slow steaming was acid rain - low temperatures and excessive condensation in the waste heat boiler. Perseus suffered the ignominy of the WH BLR rotting out and falling onto the engine heads!

She was a bit of a Jonah, I suppose. She also bent her 600 Ton ramp and hit the quay in NOLA, opening several ballast tanks!

Priam (my ship) was very different, and we quickly learned from her sister's errors.

Rgds.
Dave


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Turbo Charger problem

Two weeks ago large vessel had TC failure. Tug COMMANDER dispatched from Bahamas to pick up tow. 5 days to make up connection. 5 days (slow) to bring vessel to Bermuda. Xmas Day, tow arrived at King's Wharf, Dockyard. Would have stayed longer to watch the vessel berthed, but my lunch was waiting! The replacement TC had been flown to Bda and was waiting when vessel arrived. Also two TC engineers flown to carry out the work. Great day for Christmas!


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## YM-Mundrabilla (Mar 29, 2008)

What is a TC, please?


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

enjoy this web site-TC Turbo charger, engineering terms a fan, compressor worked off engine exhausts that compresses the natuaral air intake into any internal combustion engine, marine, car. lorry, plane, railway engine- Sound usually ahigh pitched whine???
While on this web site you would be enlightened may be to read, all the engine, deck and other pages to pick up the noral seamans command/understanding of what ones ships mates are trained to combat, in fair and foul weather, while on passage or on standby ( leaving arriving in port- narrow seway like the channel, or singapore straights where the marine traffic-ships are in their many numbers, and various draughts and need deep water to navigate safely.


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

the shortest sea I have experienced on ER watch is in the Medi south of sardina making for marcellies-france soluton by the bridge was to reduce speed and just keeping a headway into the weather, so the ship maybe pitched, but does not roll so violently.


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## YM-Mundrabilla (Mar 29, 2008)

captainconfusion said:


> enjoy this web site-TC Turbo charger, engineering terms a fan, compressor worked off engine exhausts that compresses the natuaral air intake into any internal combustion engine, marine, car. lorry, plane, railway engine- Sound usually ahigh pitched whine???
> While on this web site you would be enlightened may be to read, all the engine, deck and other pages to pick up the noral seamans command/understanding of what ones ships mates are trained to combat, in fair and foul weather, while on passage or on standby ( leaving arriving in port- narrow seway like the channel, or singapore straights where the marine traffic-ships are in their many numbers, and various draughts and need deep water to navigate safely.


Thanks CaptainC.....
Always just 'turbo' in my game (rail).


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## Tim Gibbs (Apr 4, 2012)

makko said:


> .......................
> 
> ..............Also, on low revs on a Diesel engined ship, crud (oil, soot, unburned fuel) can build up in the turbocharger - This can turn the turbocharger into a gas turbine with resultant surging - This may be fatal for the TC! This happened on Barber Perseus. On Barber Priam, at slow speeds, we would briefly go to full speed to blow all the crud out.
> 
> ...


About 30 years ago we had an anchor handler with four Wichmann 9AXAG 2-stroke engines. They defo did not like low power running and would pass oil into the the exhaust manifold which built up nicely until full power was demanded whereupon the oil caught fire and the turbocharger became more like a gas turbine. It was quite scary watching the tacho climb well above the max. design speed before we could stop the engine and blank the air intake to kill the fire .


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## Ian860B (Dec 17, 2015)

Tim Gibbs said:


> About 30 years ago we had an anchor handler with four Wichmann 9AXAG 2-stroke engines. They defo did not like low power running and would pass oil into the the exhaust manifold which built up nicely until full power was demanded whereupon the oil caught fire and the turbocharger became more like a gas turbine. It was quite scary watching the tacho climb well above the max. design speed before we could stop the engine and blank the air intake to kill the fire .





makko said:


> Seeing as Chitral was a steam turbine vessel, we have to add another layer to the case - The reduction gearbox.
> 
> Prop out - surge of prop with back torque on the driven end, forcing the gear teeth.
> Prop back in - stall of prop, braking of gearbox, but the turbine woud be trying to catch up!
> ...


No governor on turbine steam ships, only an overspeed device (Aspinall), fair bit of inertia in the gearbox and prop shaft so the speeding up and slowing down can usually be lived with, sudden opening and closing of the throttles will drive the boiler room nuts, as if they did not have enough trouble trying to maintain a visible water level in the boiler. 
IanB


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

What a great thread this is with excellent contributions . No WOKE contributors so far

Times of old returning to S/N.✅

Keep them coming chaps

BW to all for 2022.

J


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## Julian Calvin (Feb 2, 2011)

Re helmsman.
On many vessels I have inspected, there is no wheel helm.
Question. Is there still a requirement for anyone to have an official “steering ticket”?


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Julian Calvin said:


> Re helmsman.
> On many vessels I have inspected, there is no wheel helm.
> Question. Is there still a requirement for anyone to have an official “steering ticket”?


That Indonesian guy "on the wheel" on Costa Concordia had no steering ticket. Whether he understood helm orders is quite another matter.

As an aside, as a first tripper in Blue Funnels' Clytoneus the Old Man (Capt. Stubbins or Stubbings) had me on the wheel for a total of the required 10 hours before issuing the Steering Certificate. I still have it somewhere. As a paper copy it was never entered in my Dis Book. One certainly needed evidence of the Steering Ticket before sitting the Lifeboat, EDH and AB exams.

BW
J


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## Julian Calvin (Feb 2, 2011)

Julian Calvin said:


> Re helmsman.
> On many vessels I have inspected, there is no wheel helm.
> Question. Is there still a requirement for anyone to have an official “steering ticket”?





Julian Calvin said:


> Re helmsman.
> On many vessels I have inspected, there is no wheel helm.
> Question. Is there still a requirement for anyone to have an official “steering ticket”?


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## Julian Calvin (Feb 2, 2011)

In STCW there is the requirement for an AB to have ability to steer vessel.
BUT on many vessels giving someone steering control is also handing over engine control.
Is a Master going to allow this?


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## Julian Calvin (Feb 2, 2011)

Julian Calvin said:


> In STCW there is the requirement for an AB to have ability to steer vessel.
> BUT on many vessels giving someone steering control is also handing over engine control.
> Is a Master going to allow this?


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## Julian Calvin (Feb 2, 2011)

Mine attached.is this still a requirement?


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## John Jarman (Sep 17, 2009)

I didn't have a "Steering Ticket" when I was given the helmsman's job of steering the Fulham IX(if memory correct) up the Thames from G'end to Barking. It was 1954 and me just 10yo though. I was told by my dad, "Just keep the jackstaff in the middle of the river". An unforgettable memory. The real helmsman had said, "Let the lad have a go".

JJ.


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## John Gowers (Jul 18, 2018)

~11 Yes the engine and turbo chargers would surge, speed up, when the prop came fully or partionally out off the water, could be quite scarry.
As some one has said earlier if an engine is run on slow revs carbon builds up in the Turbo Charger and to get rid of this on slow steaming we used to go up to full speed once a day, I think for an hour, to blow all the carbon out of the T/B. Bye the way this is the same as a car engine if you drive like an old lady going to the shops all the time you should take it out and blast it along the motorway now and again, of course always observing the speed limit.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

John Jarman said:


> . It was 1954 and me just 10yo thou I was told by my dad, "Just keep the jackstaff in the middle of the river". An unforgettable memory. The real helmsman had said, "Let the lad have a go".
> 
> JJ.


As a Sea Cadet in FRANCONIA the tender went across the Harbour to bring Captain Smith back on board. The Bosun, John King says, "Just keep a steady bearing on that ****ehawk!"


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## Robert S. Smith (Feb 14, 2016)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Bob,
> 
> Sorry, I missed the name of the ship. You were CHITRAL, P&O. 13,821 grt, Length 557 ft, beam 70.2 ft. 5 hatches, 231 passenger in one class. 196 crew. Single Screw, Parsons geared turbines from Penhoet, St Nazaire. 12,500 S.H.P.
> 
> Stephen


Yes, correct!
Bob


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

John Jarman said:


> I didn't have a "Steering Ticket" when I was given the helmsman's job of steering the Fulham IX(if memory correct) up the Thames from G'end to Barking. It was 1954 and me just 10yo though. I was told by my dad, "Just keep the jackstaff in the middle of the river". An unforgettable memory. The real helmsman had said, "Let the lad have a go".
> 
> JJ.


interesting young man, did you become a Thames waterman. later in life? Again the Fulham X! was she not a 'Flat Iron' trading coal from Jarrow on the Tyne to Kingston Power Station on the Thames, or was she a fly ash dumper from Kingston powers station,, or other power stations on the lower reaches of the thames to the dumping grounds off Southend?? Just outside the smooth water limits of the thames??
Again you raise many an interesting subject of the Thames navigation Tidal reaches, below Teddington, and the half tide locks at Richmond, and the care that was required by all ships, small and large when negotiating the Bridges in the lower reaches of the Thames, from a draft point of view {tide] and upper/super structure clearance with each bridge, a subject which was I believe discussed at the Marchioness and Bow Belle enquirey?


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Robert S. Smith said:


> Yes, correct!
> Bob



Must have been a lovely ship... cargo passenger. How long did you sail in the ship? 

Stephen


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

John Gowers said:


> ~11 Yes the engine and turbo chargers would surge, speed up, when the prop came fully or partionally out off the water, could be quite scarry.
> As some one has said earlier if an engine is run on slow revs carbon builds up in the Turbo Charger and to get rid of this on slow steaming we used to go up to full speed once a day, I think for an hour, to blow all the carbon out of the T/B. Bye the way this is the same as a car engine if you drive like an old lady going to the shops all the time you should take it out and blast it along the motorway now and again, of course always observing the speed limit.


Another term for it is an "Italian tune up".All the best for New Year 🥳 .


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

taffe65 said:


> Another term for it is an "Italian tune up".All the best for New Year 🥳 .


Priceless.😊

BW
J


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## John Jarman (Sep 17, 2009)

Captain C. No, I eventually became a power station engineer but I think my dad, as a Thames pilot, was thinking I'd follow in his shoes. My eyesight made it not possible (back then?), but I think he and mother, thought I should get some early training before that was detected around age 16.
I can't remember if the Fulham IX was a Flatiron but I did several trips on her and many others, mostly when my dad knew the skipper and generally going up river. I have the records of every ship he piloted from his account books, so could probably work out roughly when I did that trip.

JJ.
PS. just looked up Fulham 9. Yes - Flatiron. On that trip maybe it was just going to Barking PS.


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

John

Did you ever service Battersea Power Station?. The two Stothert &Pitt cranes on the jetty have now been completely refurbished. Some historians claim that the jetty was at some time serviced by 3 S&Ps. However, other claim that there were only 2 cranes there.

My last "big" job was there 2 years ago although still fitting out today.

Will take some time to recoup the £12 billion invested.

BW

J


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## Robert S. Smith (Feb 14, 2016)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Must have been a lovely ship... cargo passenger. How long did you sail in the ship?
> 
> Stephen


Hello Stephen: I was on the Chitral for two years, 1963-1965. I worked on her as a PRS (Public Room Steward) - serving drinks in the lounges on the upper deck. She was a great ship - service from London to Yokohama. Originally built for the Belgium Congo run from Antwerp - when Congo got its independence P&O bought the two sister ships (Cathay and Chitral) on the cheap and put them to work on the Japan run. At the time the "Asian Tiger" economies were starting to roar and so having two cargo-passenger liners doing this run (10 weeks round trip) made good business sense for P&O. 
I'm currently writing a memoir and trying to describe the experience of getting hit by the super typhoon "Judy" (Sept, 63) on our way home from Kobe to Hong Kong. Hence the question about the prop and rudder coming out of the sea. I remember laying in my bunk and hearing the prop coming out of the water and making this weird sound before going back into the sea again. It was pretty scary. At some point the passengers came up to the lounge and sat there with their life jackets on. Also there were ropes put up in the corridors for passengers to hold onto. I think most of the crew stayed in their cabins for the duration. I think Captain Randall tried to outrun the storm - he had a reputation of getting to port on schedule - probably wanted to keep his record intact. As part of the catering department - I didn't have any knowledge to how the ship was run during the storm. So am trying to fill-in the gaps!

Happy New Year (2022) Everyone! Thanks for the information.
Cheers,
Bob


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## BlueNote (Feb 22, 2020)

Robert S. Smith said:


> Hello - I am writing about a trip I took on the Chitral between Kobe (Jp) and Hong Kong and we hit a typhoon Judy, 63? The sea was so rough that the ship pitched so that the stern came out of the water so prop and rudder were in the air. What is the technical term for when this happens? What are the consequences when this happens? The ship is not steerable?
> 
> I was a steward so don't have the technical language or understanding for when this happens.
> Thanks,
> Bob Smith


I think the term might be that the prop is "cavitating."


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## polaris.smith68 (Dec 31, 2021)

Robert S. Smith said:


> Hello - I am writing about a trip I took on the Chitral between Kobe (Jp) and Hong Kong and we hit a typhoon Judy, 63? The sea was so rough that the ship pitched so that the stern came out of the water so prop and rudder were in the air. What is the technical term for when this happens? What are the consequences when this happens? The ship is not steerable?
> 
> I was a steward so don't have the technical language or understanding for when this happens.
> Thanks,
> Bob Smith


I served on the M.V. Teakbank '65 to '67 as 5th/4th engineer. The vessel was a 4 pot Doxford, max sea speed revs around 95rpm, there was an Aspinal Governor attached to the rear of the engine. Going south bound to the west coast of south America the weather was most times foul, plenty of rock and roll and pitching, when prop came out of the water there was a sudden surge in revs, the said governor (which was mechanically connected to the fuel pumps) shut/lessened the fuel to the injectors which slowed the revs down. This prevented 'over-revving', 
Hope this helps.
Wishing all you guys who went down to the Sea in ships, an abundant New Year.
Michael Smith


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

I don't think cavitation is the correct term in this case. Cavitation occurs when low pressure on the back side of a blade and causes bubbles to appear on tips of the blades. Takes when in higher speeds. (Lots of stuff this on Google, but too technical!) When a vessel is pitching the speed would be reduced so 'cavitation' would not occur.

Stephen


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## soccerover (Mar 30, 2009)

The engineers on this forum have covered all the prop/rudder queries wonderfully - as a mate I experienced this many times in typhoons - the vibration was very noticeable when the prop came out but the terrific vibration caused when the bow plunged back into the sea we used to call "pounding" - the vessel literally shuddered from bow to about midships when it was very violent. Guess it depended very much on the wave frequency versus vessel length and of course speed.


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## Iangb (Aug 28, 2009)

Had this happen once back in the 60s on the 6750t Aussie container ship Kooringa while crossing the Australian Bight (Melb-Freo). We were buried in a monster wave so deep that instead of shedding water, she floated out stern first. The ER thought that we had lost the prop because of the sudden overspeed.
Needless to say there was a fair bit of damage with set up fo'c'sle coamings, displaced rails etc, and the first two container rows destroyed.
(Pic taken on arrival Fremantle).









We spent the next few hours hove-to stern to weather trying to secure what was left of the deck cargo, and cleaning the sticky mix of sweetened condensed milk and carbon black from the bridge windows.


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Stephen J. Card said:


> "Ship steering badly." "Unable to maintaining steerage."
> 
> When prop and rudder come out of the sea and at the same time the bow is buried in the sea you could say the she is "Heavily pitching." or "Pitching and rolling heavily."
> 
> ...


I used to love that so English comment written up in the log book when heavy weather was encountered and the ship was performing like a demented seal with everyone clinging to whatever was handy. viz:- "vessel pitching and rolling (and as an apologetic afterthought) heavily at times"


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## Robert S. Smith (Feb 14, 2016)

gordonarfur said:


> I used to love that so English comment written up in the log book when heavy weather was encountered and the ship was performing like a demented seal with everyone clinging to whatever was handy. viz:- "vessel pitching and rolling (and as an apologetic afterthought) heavily at times"


*Amen.*


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## Hygromia/3rdShip (May 5, 2018)

I was a 2nd trip apprentice on Shell Tanker, SS Vermetus (35000 T) heading to Boston from Venezuela with heavy fuel oil when we hit a N Atlantic winter hurricane on Feb 1969. Totally battened down and 120+ knot winds. We were hove-to for 4 days. A steam turbine with back-to-back Foster Wheeler D boilers. 
We had to time the pitching for when the prop was out of the water. One engineer would shut in the Main Steam valve and a junior would knock off a burner of each boiler. It was horrendously tiring, especially when 2 or 3 waves were close together and the stern would slam down several times, often throwing ER staff to the deck.. 
Overspeed, and we certainly would have, would have tripped the boilers, then lost steam, then steerage. Not a good situation!
On the 4th day, when the weather had moderated slightly, I ventured up the boiler room - when ladders were horizontal, and got to the funnel deck. I was shocked to see the size of the waves - higher than the main mast. The mate told us we had 30+ metre waves.
Our on-deck cargo heating lines were demolished.. As we were allowed out on deck, the weather flattened off considerably the weather turned freezing cold and hand rails were 6" thick. Chief Eng took us 3 apprentices out to view the steam windlass and the 3/8' steel guards were smashed against the helical gearing. Perfect job for us apprentices to repair!!
When we got into Boston, the snow was a metre deep with 4 M drifts and the Gale + wind was -20C.
Roads all shut and nowhere to pumpour oil, even if we could. Had to get shore crew to make new cargo heating steam lines before we could heat cargo up to a pumpable rate.
Good stuff - saw Creedance Clearwater Revival at a club.


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## John Jarman (Sep 17, 2009)

jmcg said:


> John
> 
> Did you ever service Battersea Power Station?. The two Stothert &Pitt cranes on the jetty have now been completely refurbished. Some historians claim that the jetty was at some time serviced by 3 S&Ps. However, other claim that there were only 2 cranes there.
> 
> ...


I never went to Battersea PS. JM. I think it was decommissioned as a PS before my time or around then ('62), so can't say about cranes. It's an iconic building though and deserves to be kept - can't say that about most which followed. The picture I found only shows 2 cranes but what year?

JJ.


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## Biggles Wader (Jul 18, 2013)

Battersea power station is luxury apartments now, though the building has been kept as part of the development. The two cranes have been kept as well I believe.


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## Victor J. Croasdale (Nov 28, 2016)

Stephen J. Card said:


> "Ship steering badly." "Unable to maintaining steerage."
> 
> When prop and rudder come out of the sea and at the same time the bow is buried in the sea you could say the she is "Heavily pitching." or "Pitching and rolling heavily."
> 
> ...


On one trip on the "Loch Maree" we were in Longbeach CA. close to the RMS Queen Mary and a group of went across for the tour. We sat in the dining room whilst the tour guide, a young kid, solemnly explained that in rough weather they would soak the table cloths with water to stop the plates sliding about. We listened with fake incredulity until he had gone, then we laughed our ****s off.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

John Jarman said:


> I never went to Battersea PS. JM. I think it was decommissioned as a PS before my time or around then ('62), so can't say about cranes. It's an iconic building though and deserves to be kept - can't say that about most which followed. The picture I found only shows 2 cranes but what year?
> 
> JJ.
> View attachment 689989
> ...


Battersea power station decommissioned 1975.


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

The picture that JJ posted is quite old - how old I do not know. However, the void between the apartments on the right and what was known as the Switch House West is another set of glass so called luxury glass house apartments. The top suite is owned by the singer Sting and is reported to have cost £9million. Last year it was reported as valued £14 million. It was an extension of the Circus West phase of the overall development. Most if not all occupiers are of Far Eastern heritage,

There is now just 12 meters between the apartments and the PS (Switch House West) boundary wall - a perfect vantage point the following.

During our considerable time and package there we were entertained each Monday morning at 11.00 by an Eastern lady in one of the glasshouses going about her household cleaning routine stark naked. She hoovered, polished and cleaned the internals al fresco before finishing on the sliding balcony doors. Then a wave to all on Switch House before drawing the drapes.

Pure theatre and a good exhibition of how to do a thorough cleaning job without the irritation of clothing. Always well attended. 

One of the station stacks can and does emit fake plumes of smoke/steam whilst another vents off her own CHP emissions.

Very few British born workers were on the re-construction/fitting out- mostly Romanians, Bulgarians and Albanians although they were guaranteed and received the going rate and benefits of the London construction boom.

Sorry a bit off thread.

BW
J


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## shinz (Sep 29, 2018)

gordonarfur said:


> "vessel pitching and rolling (and as an apologetic afterthought) heavily at times"


Reminded me of a trip across Cook Strait probably 40 or so years back, Aranui I think, the vessel cork screwing over quartering seas, pitching & rolling as described & every time it went over the crest there would be a thump thump thump vibration through it as, what I supposed, the prop came out of the water. A lot of unwell pax, my usual fix of a railways pie & mug of coffee held good till we made the sounds.
The previous comment about an Italian tune up struck a memory cord too, while at uni & fixing other guys cars, the work shop I used to go & get welding done after I'd stripped bits out had a Merc 190SL brought in by it's little old lady owner for its tune up as it was running rough . The boss would give it hell up the northern motorway & it would be running like a dream when she came back later. I've always had a grin at that.


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## jonti (Mar 5, 2008)

Robert S. Smith said:


> Hello - I am writing about a trip I took on the Chitral between Kobe (Jp) and Hong Kong and we hit a typhoon Judy, 63? The sea was so rough that the ship pitched so that the stern came out of the water so prop and rudder were in the air. What is the technical term for when this happens? What are the consequences when this happens? The ship is not steerable?
> 
> I was a steward so don't have the technical language or understanding for when this happens.
> Thanks,
> Bob Smith


Happens all the time in rough weather on RN ships, nearly always at meal times with the ship exercising with others. The stern then drops down, the bows reach for the sky and they drop down in a series of steps like walking down stairs. Happy to remember but nasty at the time. Jonti


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## John Jarman (Sep 17, 2009)

Ron Stringer said:


> Battersea power station decommissioned 1975.


Yes Ron, I googled it myself.
JJ.


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

shinz said:


> Reminded me of a trip across Cook Strait probably 40 or so years back, Aranui I think, the vessel cork screwing over quartering seas, pitching & rolling as described & every time it went over the crest there would be a thump thump thump vibration through it as, what I supposed, the prop came out of the water. A lot of unwell pax, my usual fix of a railways pie & mug of coffee held good till we made the sounds.
> The previous comment about an Italian tune up struck a memory cord too, while at uni & fixing other guys cars, the work shop I used to go & get welding done after I'd stripped bits out had a Merc 190SL brought in by it's little old lady owner for its tune up as it was running rough . The boss would give it hell up the northern motorway & it would be running like a dream when she came back later. I've always had a grin at that.


Run em hot,like your women ,always puts a smile on their face🍻


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

soccerover said:


> The engineers on this forum have covered all the prop/rudder queries wonderfully - as a mate I experienced this many times in typhoons - the vibration was very noticeable when the prop came out but the terrific vibration caused when the bow plunged back into the sea we used to call* "pounding"* - the vessel literally shuddered from bow to about midships when it was very violent. Guess it depended very much on the wave frequency versus vessel length and of course speed.


A term that I had forgotten! Bay of Biscay, Blue Funnel Super P, Phrontis. My first trip and I was sick as a dog for two days. I couldn't bear going down to the ER because the smell of HFO would nauseate me!

Anyway, the Super P's were (in my opinion) not good "sea ships", very prone to rolling and pitching heavily. Apart from calling my "Uncle Huey" repeatedly, I finally got my sea legs and enjoyed, when off watch, sitting in the bar (which ran abeam across the accom) which had panoramic windows with a good view forward. I was fascinated watching large waves hitting the forepeak and washing over the deck, sometimes showering the accom. The corkscrew motion and pounding was impressive, like an echoed bass drum getting quieter as the wave passed aft. More impressive still was doing a keel duct inspection during the pounding! Apart from the drumming, there were also strange squeaks and squawks! It probably impressed me more because it was my first trip. We had joined in Antwerp, Dec. 26 1981, New Year was rung in transiting the English Channel, after loading explosives at Gravesend.

Thanks for triggering the memory! Happy New Year to all!

Rgds.
Dave


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

I thought the term was "racing" when the propellor came clear of the water.
The main engine governor would kick in and reduce the rpm immediately.
Hope the engineers had not been fiddling about with this ver sensitive piece of equipment as "Woodward" governors were very sensitive !!


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Yes, a racing prop. The Woodward should NEVER be touched! It is a very sensitive piece of kit.

I looked at a static diesel generator various moons ago. It had suffered an overspeed incident and wrecked the crankshaft, Quite why the governor did not cut in was never established - the Woodward governor technician tested it and it was A-OK. Even computer simulations could not come up with a scenario. At the end of the day, it oversped and suffered damage, no problems there with coverage.

Rgds.
Dave


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

I recall on one ship I was on we had problems with the Woodward governor and the representative was required to fix it. No one admitted to have been fiddling with it. Prior to departing he handed the 2/E a small tool for adjusting it. Should it be necessary!!! Knew he would be paying us another visit later!!!!


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Yes, Lakercapt, more than likely! The only adjustments are "by the book" with the tuning knobs on the front. In many cases, even they have a cover with a lock to avoid people's itching fingers!

Rgds.
Dave


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## rssmith1264 (Jan 3, 2022)

Hello Dave & Lakercapt, We are talking about the P&O cargo-passenger ship the Chitral (prev. the SS Jadotville). She was originally built in France for the Belgium Congo run. Powered: Steam - D.R. Geared Turbine engines by their builders. Screw: Single - 12.500 SHP. 
Question: Would she also have a Woodward governor?
Regards,
Bob


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Hi rssmith1264,
In my experience, Steam Turbines usually have a "bespoke" overspeed trip designed by the manufacturer. The Woodward is a standard piece of kit for Diesel engines. I am trying to remeber if I have a picture somewhere - If so, I will get back! Again, from memory, they have a feedback circuit to lower/increase steam inlet (i.e. available power). I know of one case where it was installed the wrong way round - This led to the turbine increasing the speed until destruction. I will work on my memory now!
Rgds.
Dave


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## John Gowers (Jul 18, 2018)

Here is a picture of a woodward governor






Governors


Our governors are used worldwide to provide reliable and precise control of speed and output in power generation, marine, pump, compression, and vehicle applications.




www.woodward.com


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## Ian860B (Dec 17, 2015)

makko said:


> Hi rssmith1264,
> In my experience, Steam Turbines usually have a "bespoke" overspeed trip designed by the manufacturer. The Woodward is a standard piece of kit for Diesel engines. I am trying to remeber if I have a picture somewhere - If so, I will get back! Again, from memory, they have a feedback circuit to lower/increase steam inlet (i.e. available power). I know of one case where it was installed the wrong way round - This led to the turbine increasing the speed until destruction. I will work on my memory now!
> Rgds.
> Dave


Had Woodward governors on steam turbine cargo pumps on tankers, yes worked very well only had to top up the oil occasionally, one thing I noticed when we had one opened up was that the governor was driven via a plastic coupling, hate the thought of what would happen when the coupling sheared.
IanB


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

Ian860B said:


> Had Woodward governors on steam turbine cargo pumps on tankers, yes worked very well only had to top up the oil occasionally, one thing I noticed when we had one opened up was that the governor was driven via a plastic coupling, hate the thought of what would happen when the coupling sheared.
> IanB


I'm pretty sure the cargo p/p turbine would be protected with an overspeed trip, perhaps the coupling material is designed to fail to protect the governor if the whole job takes off,bit like shear bolts on a PTO say on a tractor?


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## Tim Gibbs (Apr 4, 2012)

Heavy weather wasn't much fun on an LB Doxford with the dreaded Aspenall governor. It tripped the fuel pump suction but, being a common rail fuel system, there was quite a lot of pressurised fuel to keep the engine running for an uncomfortable few seconds. It was a good plan to become a manumatic governor at the controls 😎


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Further to my previous post, it has just come to me that turbine (gas/steam) overpspeed trips are axially operated. An overspeed will force the rotor to move axially and the actuator is operated by the axial movement of the rotor shaft collar. The Woodward operates directly on the operational speed (rotation) of the engine.

Hence, when a turbine overspeeds, the rotating blades can contact the static blades. This can liberate blade material and the whole shebang goes south very quickly! Once there is contact and debris in the casing, the rotor will act like a corkscrew. The movement is towards the exciter/coupling/alternator. Usually in such an event, the alternator windings will also suffer contact damage, requiring a rewind.

Two particular cases come to mind: Firstly, a 360MW steam turbine which went from 2400 rpm to zero "in less than two minutes. In this event, the hydrogen seals on the alternator were wrecked (large alternators are cooled with hydrogen) and ignited due to metal-to-metal contact. On another, a 380 MW gas turbine using natural gas as fuel, after the contact and flame-out, gas exited the casing. The fire/explosion/movement ruptured lubrication lines, leading to the entire enclosure burning up. At least on a Diesel, you can cut the fuel and it will stop more quickly and less disastrously!

I did a thorough investigation of the gas turbine. After trawling through boxes of operational and maintenance records, I found the "smoking gun"! During the event, operators reported that the control system had frozen, leading to the overspeed. I discovered that the entire overspeed system was reliant on the computer control system, hence when it froze, control of the turbine was lost. (I also discovered that, in the upgrade to the very nice touch screen system, the mechanical overspeed was deemed obsolescent and disconnected.) 

During the last major, the backup battery for the overspeed was due to be changed but the new one supplied, whose designation was the same, had terminals which were different. It was decided that the battery was "all right", without any knowledge of the electronic logic for the overspeed system. Cost of the battery, USD3.99, cost of a new turbogenerator, USD36,000,000! Incidentally, it also became evident that, due to the SNAFUs in the control system, as contact happened and the rotor slowed initially, the "disjointed" control circuit increased the fuel to the burners!

Consequently, I always maintain a very healthy distance from operating turbogenerators.............!

Regards,
Dave


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

typo: "rotor shaft collar" should read "rotor shaft thrust collar".


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## rssmith1264 (Jan 3, 2022)

From what I can gather from this conversation. In simple layman’s terms: In a rough sea when the ship's prop comes out of the water - resistance to suddenly no resistance (the prop is “racing”) this could damage the shaft or main engine. To prevent this damage occurring there is a system called a “governor” which kicks-in (trips) when the prop is out of the water - racing. The governor somehow puts the propeller into a safe mode until it goes back into the sea where it should normally be. Is this the basic idea?


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

That is correct, rssmith1264! Sorry to have rambled on so much.......... ;-)
Rgds.
Dave


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## rssmith1264 (Jan 3, 2022)

Dave - Thank you. Am glad I got the scoop on this "prop out of the sea" problem from the engine rooms perspective!


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

rssmith

A most enjoyable opening thread and subsequent postings from all.
I look forward to your next query.

If you have the time search for the DERBYSHIRE thread in bulk carriers you will find the gist of an end of watch comment between 2nd Mate, 3rd Engineer and myself on her sister ship. During the 12-4 rounding the Cape in ballast 2nd called ER to ask of any concerns "down below" . The answer was no. 2nd mate was concerned about how v/l was performing in huge seas. His concerns were sound at the time and persuasive later on in years.

A tragic eventuality.

BW
J


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

I agree, John. A thoroughly enjoyable thread!
Happy New Year!
Rgds.
Dave


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

AVON BRIDGE... another one 'those' type OBO with flush deck. In any kind of weather the OOW would turn the  searchlight on. In an instant you could see what was happening over the bow. If there was any chance of seas coming over the bow the Old Man was to be alerted. I think 1974 (about) EDEN BRIDGE took a couple of seas over the bow and the FP bulkhead buckled. The damage was not seen until later. Had DERBYSHIRE been built with a full focs'le she might not have gone down to the bottom.


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Stephen

I have deliberately desisted from introducing the loss of the Derbyshire to this excellent thread of prop out of the water.

As the thread has now satisfied the OP I will now summarise the call from Bridge to ER on English Bridge as there is relevance- albeit remote.

We had rounded the Cape in ballast to Mina -al -Ahmadi. We were in heavy weather, rolling and pitching heavily. I was on lookout on W, of B. /wheelhouse. 2nd mate doing what 2nd mates do as well as keeping his watch. Unlike some, he was a talkative, friendly & likeable chap and we had already struck up a good rapport.

The OBOs were awful ships in poor weather as all who sailed in them will attest.

We rode the crests and troughs and in doing so the bow would plunge down on each howler. We watched and wondered.

2nd mate caller ER, asking if all was well when we plunged. No issues at all responded the 3rd E and who appeared somewhat puzzled as to the call.

We maintained lookout and concluded that she was acting strangely and certainly not what either of us had ever experience -even in worse weather conditions

As was the norm following our watch we would join the ER watch for a tea or beer in the night pantry. The 3rd Engineer quizzed the 2nd mate as to why he called down ( not a usual occurrence) at the time . Discussion followed including prop out of the water and possible consequences. I remember the discussion very well as can always recall the 2nd mates comments/observations. *He was convinced the ship was acting like a banana in front of the bridge ! But no prop out of the water or overspeed of M.E.?*

We sailed on arriving Mina Christmas Day. Worked all day in ER (she was a GP manned v/l) and sailed for Europort on Boxing day. Had an fire in Junior Eng.cabin off Las Palmas - fortunately the alarm sounded , sprinklers worked and we were OK. I got out of her in Europort and not long after I believe the 2nd mate got a command with a German gas outfit.

As we all know the Derbyshire and English Bridge (later Kowloon Bridge) had difficulties in the Frame 65 area. The class and demise have been well hackneyed on this platform

BW
J


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Excellent summary of that JMCG. 

The important thing is that, when she took the green, the prop never exited the water. As you say, the banana effect (hogging/sagging) and extremely, extremely worrying. 

One for our original poster, rssmith: A "stiff" ship and a "tender" ship, in all of the conditions to be experienced in normal navigation and heavy weather. Sobering.

Best Regards,
Dave


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

jmcg said:


> *He was convinced the ship was acting like a banana in front of the bridge ! But no prop out of the water or overspeed of M.E.?
> 
> 'Flexing' in heavy weather is completely normal. OBO, tanker, bulkcarrier, container ship or even a simple reefer ship. The ships is built this way. It becomes a problem is the there is no release of the tension in the hull. Large OBO's etc, perhaps you want to change your trousers after 4 hours on the bridge. The bow bends and the ripple can be seen as it runs the length of the ship and then you get the bump.
> 
> ...


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes Stephen. I have served on bulkers, reefers and small container ships. All behaved as designed. 

Definitely not so MV English Bridge. 

Thanks for direction to You Tube.

BW
J


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

I too noticed on the Ocean/Lakers built at Govan for Canadian companies how they would bend and flex when in a seaway. This as they were not conventional ocean ships being 730 feet long and 76 feet wide. A 10/1 ratio is not what normal ocean ships are.


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## rssmith1264 (Jan 3, 2022)

It's me again: What actually happens if the governor doesn't trip when the prop is out of the water? There's a mechanical failure? How bad is that?

And what is a "tender" and "stiff" ship referring to - the degree the structure of ship is "flexible" in heavy seas? I wont go on to ask about the "Banana"!
Bob


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

makko said:


> Hi rssmith1264,
> In my experience, Steam Turbines usually have a "bespoke" overspeed trip designed by the manufacturer. The Woodward is a standard piece of kit for Diesel engines. I am trying to remeber if I have a picture somewhere - If so, I will get back! Again, from memory, they have a feedback circuit to lower/increase steam inlet (i.e. available power). I know of one case where it was installed the wrong way round - This led to the turbine increasing the speed until destruction. I will work on my memory now!
> Rgds.
> Dave


The steam turbines ME i sailed with were Pamatrada, and they had Aspinal Emergency governors. The auxilaries TA/s where Allens manufacture of bedford, and the feed pumps and cargo/ballast turbine pumps were of wiers manufacture
for details of emergency governors one may have to read a standard Marine engineering book, that one studied at sea and for the BOT TICKETS [1960/s]


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## dudleyhorscroft (Oct 17, 2021)

rssmith1264 said:


> It's me again: What actually happens if the governor doesn't trip when the prop is out of the water? There's a mechanical failure? How bad is that?
> 
> And what is a "tender" and "stiff" ship referring to - the degree the structure of ship is "flexible" in heavy seas? I wont go on to ask about the "Banana"!
> Bob


 'stiff' ship is one with a small period of roll. A 'tender' ship is one with a long period of roll. The result is that the stiff ship returns very quickly to an upright position - with upright being referred to the surface of the water, not the vertical as referring to gravity. This means that when there is a swell in any direction other than dead ahead or dead astern, the ship will roll quickly as she passes through the swells. This can mean violent transverse acceleration in the accommodation, with crockery crashing in the galley, drawers shooting out from under bunks, and the persons in the bunks being painfully ejected. Standard procedure on one ship I sailed on was to shift everything movable to the deck just in case!

By contrast a tender ship reacts very slowly to the swell. A case in point, on the Khuzistan north of the Mozambique channel with a heavy swell, the Doxford broke down for some hours. We lay broadside on to the swell and the wind. The swell had a period of about 9 seconds, timed over several swells. We rolled, but no more than about two degrees - by the time we stated to roll to one side the next swell was upon us and starting to roll us the other way. Most comfortable. But we must have been doing several knots sideways to judge from the upflow of water on the weather side, which produced a near calm patch of water. 

Unfortunately, later that night, after getting under way, and having engine revs greatly reduced to reduce the pounding from the bow bouncing off the top of the swells, and having the secunny advising he could not keep the ship's head up with the helm hard over, the Master decided to turn and head due north. This put the swell on the port quarter, and reverting to normal sea speed, our period of encounter with the swells must have been very close to her rolling period. Result very slow but large rolls, about 30 degrees perhaps, don't know as I was ejected from bunk to the clash of crockery, went up to bridge, and made 'remonstrations' to the personnel there and had her head altered to north east to put the swell dead astern, to have the serang very shortly come up to advise that large chlorine cylinders in the deck cargo had broken loose. Took about an hour and a half to finish securing them.


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Any comments on the "Speed Roll"?

Unlikely if on one of Freds.

BW
J


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

jmcg said:


> Any comments on the "Speed Roll"?
> 
> Unlikely if on one of Freds.
> 
> ...


On a Cape run p&o containers ship,think it was new zealand Pacific, vividly remember sat in armchair in video/games room resisting gravity by holding onto bulkhead handrail until overcome and sliding downhill like a bobsleigh and got ejected out of armchair onto a fellow engineer who was wedged against opposite bulkhead in his chair.I,m a beefy chap and he got the wind knocked out of his sails,he wasn't right for a while.That was on passage from kiwi to Cape horn.


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## BobRyder (Feb 10, 2016)

East coast fishermen called it "Throwing the wheel."


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## rssmith1264 (Jan 3, 2022)

BobRyder said:


> East coast fishermen called it "Throwing the wheel."


Interesting! Thanks


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

good evening all you east coast fishermen, young and old: I am confused and wonder if this is a throw away remark, made in a convivial atmosphere on the shoreside retreat,
Why I say is that as or if I am correct in my days studying for my apprenticeship in the MN, and my short term employment in Hull Fish docks., A fishing vessel=deepsea- such as a trawller, a drifter, and seign netter, have a relative deep draught, and a trim buy the stern, The only fishing vessel that i can see can be upended, stern out of the water is a Beam trawlwer if the beams become snagged on the sea bed.
so i am just throwing in the towel-not the wheel. Regards,


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## BobRyder (Feb 10, 2016)

captainconfusion said:


> good evening all you east coast fishermen, young and old: I am confused and wonder if this is a throw away remark, made in a convivial atmosphere on the shoreside retreat,
> Why I say is that as or if I am correct in my days studying for my apprenticeship in the MN, and my short term employment in Hull Fish docks., A fishing vessel=deepsea- such as a trawller, a drifter, and seign netter, have a relative deep draught, and a trim buy the stern, The only fishing vessel that i can see can be upended, stern out of the water is a Beam trawlwer if the beams become snagged on the sea bed.
> so i am just throwing in the towel-not the wheel. Regards,


Well, Cap., after spending about 35 years as a line-trawler, Scottish seiner, handliner and another life searching for missing aircraft, sunken vessels and lost cargo, I assure you that more than a few times the prop/props and rudders under the sterns of whatever vessels I was running became devoid of water to push. (and NOT from grounding) Yes, the North Sea rigs were far deeper than USA east coast boats, but not so true of Gulf of Mexico oil supply boats, nor those of the Chilean Naval Armada. I stand, at 80 years of age with more than 8,000 days at sea. I have thrown many wheels but was never upended. Cheers!


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

you old sea dog!!! good to get your ribald comments on paper, I note then with my tongue in cheek? PS My nick name is 'Captain Confusion' called after my later days in the British MN under the 'Red Duster' ; However who I am is a Enginner with a BOT C/E Ticket, and I for my sins only served in the the Rank of second engineer, So Kind sir, I respect your remarks with honour. I am merely 79 years old as I type,


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