# Ships telegraphs on ss America/ Australis



## Frankenstone (May 12, 2020)

Hi guys, just new here. I have a puzzling question about the telegraphs in the engine room of the ss Australis. I took some pictures in her engine room on voyage S61, in October 1977. I recently stumbled across these and had a closer look. Low and behold, on one of the telegraphs shown, it states “Back” instead of the usual “Astern”. The second telegraph is partially visible, and shows “Astern”. Does anyone know with any certainty as to why we have these two terms? Any telegraph I have ever seen has always shown “Astern”.
Comments appreciated, photo attached.


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

US built ship. "Back" was used in engine orders instead of 'astern' (but not always). Other telegraph dial looks slightly different so one might be a replacement?


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## Wallace Slough (Mar 21, 2009)

Interesting. I've seen "Back" used on US naval vessels, but never on a merchant ship. Naval vessels also use 1/3, 2/3, Full or Standard, and Flank whereas merchant vessels were Slow, Half, Full. I felt that the 1/3 and 2/3 orders were actually superior to Slow and Full as they are less likely to be misunderstood when heard orally.
I recall one incident on a MSTS Victory Ship when my order of Slow Ahead was misunderstood by the watch officer who ordered Full Ahead. The order was immediately countermanded by myself and Full Astern was ordered.


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## kewl dude (Jun 1, 2008)

Some USA built geared steam turbines I sailed the telegraph also had Dead Slow ahead and astern.


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## Brian.M (Sep 13, 2006)

Took a trip to UK and back on the Australis in 1969. This was a 35mm slide I obtained from the Purser showing the Captain and the engine room telegraphs. Sad end to the old girl.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Do I read that telegraph correctly, does it say "CLOSE DOORS"?

What's that?


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Watertight ones?


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Ah! Makes sense.

The photo you can see TWO telegraphs. 

One of them is partly hidden. It is a 'DOCKING TELEGRAPH'. Not to the engine room, it is to the focsle and the stern. They are all orders from the bridge for orders, Let go sternline, let go spring, Avast', etc. One handle would send orders to the focsle, the other sends orders to the aft mooring station.

This would be used if the telephone was out of commission.

The close telegraph is the engineroom. The orders for Full, Astern, Dead Slow, Half, Full etc as normal. In addition... COSE WATERTIGHT DOORs. The handle on the other side of this unit probably has the OPEN WATERTIGHT DOORS. These WT doors would be for Boiler Room, Engine Room and Shaft Tunnel WT doors. You know... for Fog or Imminent Collision.

The word BACK.... you hear in the old movies, submarines (US)…. you would hear commands like 'ALL BACK TWO THIRDS'? They would understand that BACK means the same as ASTERN. Because of the reduced space on the telegraph face the word is BACK... instead of the usual ASTERN.

Why would this ship have it. Probably not usual. The s.s. AMERICA was designed by William Francis Gibbs. He built many passenger ships and other ships, including the ss UNITED STATES. He was a bit of a 'safety freak'. In 1927 one of his ships, the MALOLO, Matson's new liner, was out on trials near Nantucket, 25 May 1927. MALOLO collided in fog with a Norwegian steamer JACOB CHRISTENSEN. Struck midships, right between the Boiler Room and the Engine Room. She was flooded and almost sank. She took on 7,000 tonnes of water. However, she was able to kept afloat and was towed back to New York and was repaired. I would guess that with this event in mind, he wanted to make sure a similar event might happen to the new s.s. AMERICA and so... Watertight Door Orders makes good sense.

I had lunch with his daughter, Susan Gibbs, last year. Interesting woman. She heads the ss UNITED STATES Conservancy.

Stephen


Remember: Four Telegraphs inside the wheelhouse. Two on port side, two on starboard side. One of for engines (twin screw) and one for Docking.
T


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Varley said:


> Watertight ones?



Hmmmm. How about the Bridge Doors? Might get a draught on a windy, cold night. 2nd Mate might get disturbed.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Only an idle deckie would think of ringing down for a plumber to close the wheelhouse door! Or an idle approver of drawings that would allow it to be done by telegraph.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Everyone needs a job! 

WARWICK FORT. Every morning soon after sunrise I was told to call the E/R … 'Water on deck, Please'. The Mate, Malcolm Cameron did not wear any uniform. Only a 'Denholm Kilt'.... company issue towel, and Japanese seaboots. When the firemain was charged he would take a shower, salt water, out on the bridge wing.


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## skilly57 (Mar 11, 2008)

A Generator telegraph, a Docking telegraph, and four shaft telegraphs on the bridge of Queen Mary, Long Beach. Taken August 2018.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Queen Mary:

OUTER PROPELLERS FULL AHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!

INNER PROPELLERS FULL ASTERN!!!!!!!!!!


Makes sense. The engines have been idle for 53 years. If you walk too close to those telegraphs, you get an injury. No idea why they are not just left at STOP?

Stephen


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Generators telegraph? My my. Them Cunard deckies must have had a rare appreciation of spinning reserve.


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## Taroona (Apr 28, 2014)

Brian.M said:


> View attachment 198167
> 
> 
> Took a trip to UK and back on the Australis in 1969. This was a 35mm slide I obtained from the Purser showing the Captain and the engine room telegraphs. Sad end to the old girl.


I travelled Melbourne - Panama - Southampton on Australis in 1970, fifty years ago. I occupied one of eight berths in a cabin that was below water level and right next to the Port propellor. We counted every revolution, all the way, for thirty six days.

I share the sadness at her end. She was a wonderful vessel and I have great memories from that voyage. The daily fresh bread in the Dining Room was fabulous!


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Varley said:


> Generators telegraph? My my. Them Cunard deckies must have had a rare appreciation of spinning reserve.



'Deckies' didn't play with these telegraphs, they were for the 'Gingerbears' to play between themselves. Starting Platform to Generator Room, Steering Flat, to Boiler Rooms. Not even a repeater of these were on the bridge. They would disturb the peace and quiet on the bridge. 

Here is one of the Boiler Room telegraphs. 

Stephen


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## skilly57 (Mar 11, 2008)

Stephen, there was some jigger on the bridge who told me off when I climbed over the rope to get those telegraph photos.
I pointed out the shaft telegraph positions and their danger, and he replied "They are only dangerous to people like you who don't obey the posted instructions"!

He was dressed as a 2nd officer! Probably never been to sea in his life!


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

A pair of military ones (working. A shot of my playroom) by Evershed and Vignolles (as in the developers of the megger). They also produced a stoking indicator (Kilroy's) that indicated which furnace was to be stocked (I have another, later, pair but I think they are both engine room ends although they do work together).

An RN type on SH explained why there is no Standby, Dead Slow or FWE.

'Slow' is a set speed. 'Half' directs the engine room to observe the speed required conveyed by other means (not sure if the Mountbatten gear did not have something to do with that). 'Full' meant much the same as our double ring - "shiit or bust that-a'- way".


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

skilly57 said:


> Stephen, there was some jigger on the bridge who told me off when I climbed over the rope to get those telegraph photos.
> I pointed out the shaft telegraph positions and their danger, and he replied "They are only dangerous to people like you who don't obey the posted instructions"!
> 
> He was dressed as a 2nd officer! Probably never been to sea in his life!



LOL. I did have thought about the photos. My thought was, "Hmmm, I guess they have removed those brass railings since I was last on board." I guess they haven't! 

Years ago... like 30 at least, I was on board. There were a couple of guys at the Observation Bar. We were having a great discussion about the ship. One of them says, "You want to come with us on a tour?" I went and they were definitely not official guides at all. They also were armed with torches. Spent about two hours poking around the areas 'behind the scene'. Most of it was in shambles. Things never touched since last voyage. 


The 'Captain' on the Queen Mary... I don't think he has been to sea either!

My favourite place on board... Sir Winston's Restaurant. Great place!


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## skilly57 (Mar 11, 2008)

Stephen, the brass rails are still there - to the right in the first photo. The suedo-2nd is behind with his shirt hanging out, cuffs rolled up, and tie askew!

I seem to recall counting either 11 or 12 Telegraphs on the bridge in total! One would hope the message would always get through!

Agree with you on Sir Winston's. The food was superb. This location used to be the engineer's quarters back in the day. We stayed 3 nights.

And the 'Commodore'? Everette Hoard I think was his name. Saw him once and decided we didn't need to go there!


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

I had the best ever Steak Diane. Never seen it anywhere else as good as anywhere else... even on QM2!

Yes, evening is good fun. In many ways it is better than being on a cruise ship... you can't get seasick!

Deck stroll can't be beat. Always be out somewhere on deck... from 1000 hrs onwards until about 1700 hrs. On the hour... hear the horns. Same horn that was used in the film Poseidon!

Thanks for the photos!

Stephen


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## dannic (Mar 10, 2013)

Varley said:


> A pair of military ones (working. A shot of my playroom) by Evershed and Vignolles (as in the developers of the megger). They also produced a stoking indicator (Kilroy's) that indicated which furnace was to be stocked (I have another, later, pair but I think they are both engine room ends although they do work together).
> 
> An RN type on SH explained why there is no Standby, Dead Slow or FWE.
> 
> 'Slow' is a set speed. 'Half' directs the engine room to observe the speed required conveyed by other means (not sure if the Mountbatten gear did not have something to do with that). 'Full' meant much the same as our double ring - "shiit or bust that-a'- way".


Anyone else ever stay in Cunard's hotel in London, late seventies, office was behind it so got put in there for night after office visit before heading to heathrow to join. Think it was off Tottenham Court Road.

Lounge had literally dozens of telegraphs rescued from all the liners and cruise ships, dotted all over with brass plates on. Fascinating to see .
Dannic


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

An investment. Look at some of the asking prices are for single (genuine) therefore inoperable units. Not to mention ridiculous prices for replicas. What I can't understand is that I could afford the RN ones but not any from Merchant tonnage. Surely there must be far more of the latter around than the former.


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## howardang (Aug 3, 2008)

dannic said:


> Anyone else ever stay in Cunard's hotel in London, late seventies, office was behind it so got put in there for night after office visit before heading to heathrow to join. Think it was off Tottenham Court Road.
> 
> Lounge had literally dozens of telegraphs rescued from all the liners and cruise ships, dotted all over with brass plates on. Fascinating to see .
> Dannic


The Cunard International was at the start (London end) of the Hammersmith Flyover - I stayed there a couple of times. There were also some of the ship models which used to be in Cunard Buildings in Liverpool.

There was also a Cunard Hotel called the London International Hotel on Cromwell Road. I lived there for about three months when I started work in the Cunard Office after moving ashore in 1975. It was situated very close to the Cromwell Road Air Terminal, so it was used mainly by passengers while waiting for flights from Heathrow.

To the best of my recollection I don't think there were any items of nautical memorabilia in that hotel. 

Howard


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## YM-Mundrabilla (Mar 29, 2008)

Taroona said:


> I travelled Melbourne - Panama - Southampton on Australis in 1970, fifty years ago. I occupied one of eight berths in a cabin that was below water level and right next to the Port propellor. We counted every revolution, all the way, for thirty six days.
> 
> I share the sadness at her end. She was a wonderful vessel and I have great memories from that voyage. The daily fresh bread in the Dining Room was fabulous!


Taroona,
Your first post I see.
Welcome to SN.
YM (Wave)


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## Taroona (Apr 28, 2014)

YM-Mundrabilla said:


> Taroona,
> Your first post I see.
> Welcome to SN.
> YM (Wave)


You are most kind. Yes, my first post, but I have been reading for quite a while.

I am no seasoned mariner, such as most of the members are, but I have always loved ships. I think it is in my Scottish (Australian) blood. My great grandparents were from Glasgow and I am certain that, had I been born there, I would have gone to sea. My only difficulty would have been choosing between the deck and the engine room.

By my mid-twenties, I had achieved my ambition to cir***navigate the world by steamship. My maritime beginnings took place on Bass Straight, on board TSS Taroona (Alex Stephen 1934) between Melbourne and Tasmania (Burnie and Devonport). I fell in love with her cruiser stern.

Taroona was a "flat-bottomed boat", having a sufficiently modest draught to navigate the Tamar River, to Launceston. I think it made her a bit rough in high seas but I always enjoyed that (one of the few).

When I eventually made my first visit to the Clyde, fifty years ago, I was totally impressed to see the source of the success of the British Empire. More difficult to discern, now, I consider.

I married a lovely girl who gets sea-sick at the sight of a ship, so my seaborne travels have been long curtailed. Cruise ships do not appeal to me, anyway.

Whilst working in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, as a Graduate Apprentice in engineering (at C A Parsons Pty Ltd), I had the honour of interacting with many a "sea-going engineer" who had come ashore. They all knew Young and Jackson's pub, in Melbourne! They taught me much.

My Scots landlord was retired, but he had grown up in Belfast (they followed the work) and he recounted to me his memories from taking lunch to his father who was working in the Harland and Wolff yard, then busily constructing RMS Titanic.

We were living just up the road from the Swan Hunters yard, where the Mauritania had been built. It involved no more than a stroll to see the launching of a "supertanker". I recall seeing the launching of both Esso Hibernia and Esso Northumbria, without consulting my notes.

Enough from me, for now. Thank you, all.


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## skilly57 (Mar 11, 2008)

More Queen Mary photos - I knew there was another telegraph somewhere!

Third photo - Queen Mary - the Steering Telegraph! Funnily enough, it is in the Steering Flat beside the compass.

First photo is the Aft Engine Room Control Flat, with Telegraphs for Port Inner shaft, Boiler Room, & Stbd Inner Shaft.
The boiler rooms have all been gutted completely, as has the Fwd Engine Room and the Fwd E.R. Control Flat.

Second photo is same Boiler Room telegraph as Stephen shows above, but it has moved over the last 30 years, and now three screws are missing from the cover plate, not just two!

How many crew did they have aboard just to jingle all the telegraphs I wonder?


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Probably just the Engineer Cadets... just like Nav Cadets!

Did you like the two models of NORMANDIE and TITANIC?

On a QE2 crossing I saw a passenger looking at one of my paintings... intently at the detail. I said, "So, you like marine paintings?" He said, "Sure, but models are my thing." I went right back, "You are Roberto Pirrone!" Right on. It wasn't a hard guess... dressed all in black and with a 'dog collar'.

Stephen


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## skilly57 (Mar 11, 2008)

More telegraphs on Queen Mary!

Up fwd I found the Anchoring Telegraph and the Mooring Telegraph.
These units have not been maintained to the same degree as the Bridge telegraphs unfortunately.

Also shown is Sir Winstons, situated above the Verandah Grill, and situated right down aft. The Verandah Grill was completely gutted by Long Beach Council when they first bought the ship, but the original interiors were eventually located in a warehouse ashore and the current managers have now restored the V.G. to nearly it's original condition. Our guide unlocked the Grill for our benefit and I have a photos from in here as well.


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## skilly57 (Mar 11, 2008)

Stephen, the models are incredible!

I don't know if they were located here when you visited, but they are all now in a 'Shipyard', located on the Stbd Promenade Deck.
Before entering the Shipyard, one is greeted by a 26-ft long Lego brick model (250,000+ bricks) of the Queen Mary (photo attached).
Once on the Promenade Deck proper there are many models, but the quality & workmanship of the Titanic model struck me the most. Numerous photos are attached below, but it was sometimes very hard to get good photos due to the sunlight coming in. Morning photos would be better. We had just come across from Southampton on the QM2 6 weeks earlier, in thick fog the entire voyage. We saw nothing, and heard nothing except the fog horn.
I believe we enjoyed the days & history aboard the Queen Mary far more!


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## Chillytoes (Dec 9, 2006)

When I took my family there in 1983 there was none of this "Shipyard" stuff. Obviously they have done a fair bit of work since then. I do remember that the Engine Room tour was well attended and received (run by an old Haggis-basher) but the deck stuff - people wandered off after a very short time, leaving the guide almost to himself.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Did you ever go to 'collision' down in the hold? It shows how an accident happens and then a collision. You get splashed a bit. Different. 

The Pirrone models...

YouTube: search Father Roberto Pirrone

Titanic, Lusitania, and Normandie Cutaways on the Queen Mary 

Discussion about the models. Quite interesting. His did all of this work was done at a time when it was not easy to find all of the plans and photos etc.

The Lego model. Have not seen that one. Looks like it started out to be one by Fincantieri and then decided, "Forget the curves. Let's make just ONE huge square and then add a pointy bow and stay at that." And that is how cruise ships are built today... or they look like it!


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## Frankenstone (May 12, 2020)

Thanks for clarifying ships telegraph idiosyncrasies.


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

There must be a Bar Order Telegraph somewhere on the QM; Gin and Tonic, Whiskey and Soda and a Sweet Sherry for the Ladies.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Engine Serang said:


> There must be a Bar Order Telegraph somewhere on the QM; Gin and Tonic, Whiskey and Soda and a Sweet Sherry for the Ladies.



Captain's Bar... I mean Cabin.

Used for cocktail parties at lunch time.


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## skilly57 (Mar 11, 2008)

Nope! No gin telegraphs in the captain's cabin. I even checked the wardrobe for evidence of sly grogging, but nothing in sight!


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

My friend Russel was First Officer in CARONIA. The officers went to the lunchtime party, waiting for the passengers to arrive. They arrived to find the Old Man was rather the worse for drink. I save embarrassment they put him in the bathtub and told him to keep quiet. The passengers invited for the drink were told that captain had been sent on urgent business. All went well. A bit later, one passenger lady wanted to go to the WC. Before they could point her to the public WC in the alleyway said, "Oh, I know where to go and she barged into the captain's WC. She sat on the throne and suddenly the bath curtain was swished away and there was the captain with a big grin... minus his teeth. The lady gave a shriek and the came was up! 

Russel made three of four world cruises in CARONIA... late 1950s. One of reports from the master sent to office, "Mr 'S' had made three cruises in this ship. He seems to have the idea that Cunard's annual World Cruise is put entirely for his own amusement and enjoyment!"

Stephen


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Brian.M said:


> View attachment 198167
> 
> 
> Took a trip to UK and back on the Australis in 1969. This was a 35mm slide I obtained from the Purser showing the Captain and the engine room telegraphs. Sad end to the old girl.


Looks like his stripes are wrong, surely the flats would be either side of the diamond so its symetrical, unless you have the curl instead of the diamond.
Though I suppose some companies do not follow tradition.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

The master's braid, two straight stripes below and two above with diamond is old style Greek braid. I remember many of this on some ships and also in photos. The stripes were slightly wider and the spacing was different. 

Things have changed. A lot of people wear American braid. Cunard uses Norwegian braid... except the Engineers who still use the old Cunard lace.
P&O seem to be using Royal Navy braid. Some of them are copying the RFA diamond style. Italians are not the old braid... now something quite differently.

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

*Greek braid.*

Here a sample of old Greek braid. In the photo, the Chief Officer on the t.s.m.s. LAKONIA. Fire and sinking after Christmas 1963.

The uniform is very similar to British style. Even the QM's cap is Brit style.

Stephen


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Never heard it called Greek braid, but was Standard MN that you described Stephen, in BSL it was optional to go for RN pattern. 

I believe in the RN now they have dropped the Department colours of Purple for Engineers, Green for Electrical & Wireless, Blue for Shipwrights ( only saw that once when officers from a BI ship visited us, chippy was white and crew 
????) White for Grocers, Jack Dusty's, Red for Medical. 

At a Rememberance parade somebody asked if I was a Surgeon Commander, couldn't tell his red from purple, but had to put him right, 2/E MN. I did read if a MN C/E transferred to the RN he would take the rank of Lt Commander, so loose 11/2 stripes as they have half or a narrow stripe as well.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

*Greek braid*

The Greek and Brit braid is different. It is just the place of the diamond.

On the Greek (see Captain Zarbis, LAKONIA) shows the two lower straight stripes with the two upper with the diamond. See also the standard MN or UK... the two middle trips are made into the diamond and the straight upper and lower.

The 'Greek braid' was known like that.

I seem to remember that BSL and a few other 'liner' companies wore RN braid, but a much thinner stripe. Union Castle used as well I believe. P&O wore simple shoulder 'flash'. Orient wore a zig zag stripes.

Shaw Savill… straight, no curl, no diamond. Captain & Cheng 4 stripes. Mate and 2/E, 3 stripes, 2nd Mate and 3/E, 2 and a half, 3rd Mate and 4/W had two. 4th Mate and 5/E …. 1 stripe.

Stephen


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Yes, that's the one I know. 
It was explained to me once that until you achieve a Certificate you can only wear the half diamond, so J/e, 5/e & 4/e had the same stripe of half a diamond. 
This was the stripe that SM Bass put on my uniform when I first went to sea in 1973 and I left it until I became 2/e and then went for the curl. I only sailed two voyages (4-6 month a voyage) in each rank apart from 3/e which was 3 months before being made up to 2/E.
The 3/e could put an extra stripe up but still the half diamond. 
I have also seen the likes of the Chief Freezer with 3 straight stripes and Chief Lecky the same or with a diamond if he had HNC. 
A lot of Chief Freezers were 3/e's, did not want to go for 2nds, but did a side step as Freezer, often had sailed as 2nd Freezer in their early days. There was the odd Freezer that served their time ashore on refrigeration, so quick promotion to Chief Freezer. At one time before a 2nd went Chief he would do a few voyages as Chief Freezer (those would have been the days of Snr 2nds, J2's, Snr3rd and J3's), bit like when you did sea time for an endorsement, you may be classed as xtra 2nd ( steam or motor time), so you retained your status and sat on the top table with the OM.

The only time a comment would be made on stripes was if you put your curly eppaulettes on the wrong shoulder in tropical uniform and go into the saloon, then it would be a case of beer for the lads. A social fine as it were. And there were a few of those.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Take a walk on some cruise ships and will have 'Cruise Director' with the same amount of gold as OM, Chief , Hotel Manager etc!


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Stephen,
That's one type of ship ( if you can call them that) I won't be going on.

So what is a cruise director? Is he in charge of all the dancers, hairstylists and anybody that doesn't run the ship.
I assume the hotel manager is a cross between the Grocer and the head waiter a grand title for the old Chief Steward.

That is a different world. The old Saga Rose was more traditional in ranks and jobs.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

sternchallis said:


> Stephen,
> That's one type of ship ( if you can call them that) I won't be going on.
> 
> So what is a cruise director? Is he in charge of all the dancers, hairstylists and anybody that doesn't run the ship.
> ...



There are Cruise Directors and there are Cruise Directors! The best of them are worth their weight in gold. Some of new CD's are very young and little experience and it shows. The cruise lines (some of them) because they can promote and pay peanuts! 

Some fine CD's in Saga Rose.. like Tony Dent. Saw him of the SoD just last Xmas. Just as rude as before! Everyone misses the ROSE!

Ah, a photo taken on the ROSE final cruise. The tall fellow in the light coloured jacket? Recognise him? Had dinner a few times with him. I told him a bad joke... well in poor taste. He loved it! Here it is: What is green and 6 ft tall?

Stephen


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