# Deck Dept. U.D.H. or D.H.U.



## Peter_LT

Hello Folks,
In the process of transcribing crew lists, there's a deckie given the rating
description of U.D.H., and for the same guy in another list, he's shown as a
D.H.U. Now I know about E.D.H., but what does the "U" in these acronyms 
stand for?

Many thanks if you can clarify this for me.


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## John Crossland

Uncertified/Uncertificated


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## lakercapt

Deck Hand uncertified.
Usually an adult rating too old to be a S.O.S. (senior ordinary seaman) and not taken the E.D.H. (Efficient deck hand) certificate.


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## barrinoz

We used to say, "deck hand unqualified", for the reasons lakercapt gave.
barrinoz.


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## Peter_LT

Many thanks guys - that's another mystery solved!


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## Dickyboy

Commonly reffered to as a ''Dinkey Doo'' on the rare occasion that I came across one. Both on passenger ships in the 60s. I only recall two in the three years I was on passenger ships.


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## Donald McGhee

Peter_LT said:


> Hello Folks,
> In the process of transcribing crew lists, there's a deckie given the rating
> description of U.D.H., and for the same guy in another list, he's shown as a
> D.H.U. Now I know about E.D.H., but what does the "U" in these acronyms
> stand for?
> 
> Many thanks if you can clarify this for me.


Referred to somewhat uncharitably as Uneducated deck hand or Educated deck hand, but a common term for ayone not of AB rate, although there was always a degree of controversy abot the need for anything more than EDH (Efficient) and AB, which was the natural progression.


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## Dickyboy

I don't know if DHUs were recruted through the ''Pool'' or not. The two I knew never said how they came to be on board in the first place. There were restrictions on what they could and couldn't do workwise. Couldn't work aloft for example.
I never bothered to get my ABs ticket, I stuck with the EDH. Time served was all that was required after the EDH ticket, and as I was working on tankers, and usually flying too and from ships, I was too idle to go over to Southampton to get my ticket updated.
It's a long haul from the IOW to Southampton y'know!


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## Pat Kennedy

I sailed with only one DHU, and that was on Blue Funnel's Nestor.
He told us that he was an ex RN aircraft fitter of twenty years experience, but he said he loved the sea more than he did aeroplanes, so when he left the Grey Funnel Line, he went straight to the pool and joined the MN.
I have to say that regarding rigging and such, he was not much good, but he could spin a good yarn, and he was forever telling us how well fed we were compared to the Navy.
This man would eat anything left over after the rest of the crowd had finished their meal, he regularly polished off five or six duffs.
We called him the 'Bootle Gannet'


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## Dickyboy

Correct me if I'm wrong Pat, but I didn't think that Blue Flue were in the Shipping Federation and didn't recruit from the pool?


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## Pat Kennedy

Oh yes they did, although they had their own 'pool' of company men, and rarely needed to recruit from the Shipping Federation, from time to time they had to because there were men leaving Blue Flue to seek pastures new all the time. 
Pat.


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## Dickyboy

Oh I see, a bit like me with BP, far many more company men than from the Pool. The Pazzie boat men I was with in the mid 60s were virtually all recruited from the Pool, especially the boy ratings.
But I've always thought, from my earliest days at sea that Blue Flue had absolutely nothing to do with the Pool and always hired and fired through their own offices. So even today, many years down the line, I can still learn things.


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## jmcg

In the China there was always a degree of reticence before engaging a "Pool" AB.

One could "feel" the tension at times. Some "Pool" chaps could not or would not embrace the China's ideology or perceived servitude. It was an alien concept. There were, however a few that could and they tended to stay for a while.

I cannot remember too many "Pool" men being assigned their ship three or four days in advance of sailing - it was always at the last moment in my day.

BW

J


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## Pat Kennedy

Other companies also had their own 'pool', such as Cunard and T+J Harrisons, but did recruit from the Shipping Federation from time to time.
As John said, in BF, you got your assignment a few days before sailing, on the pool it was usually the day before, sometimes the same day.
Regards, 
Pat(Thumb)


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## Dickyboy

When I was on the Pool, Southampton, I was Deck Boy, JOS & SOS.
And being with lads of my own age and rank, we all thought that we were the Bees Knees. Being on the Pool, independant, free spirits, prepared to go where ever we wanted to, whenever we wanted to. We looked down on ''Company Men'' who had to go where they were told when they were told by their bosses.
When I grew up a bit, got my EDH I soon became a company man myself (With BP) and enjoyed the better pay, conditions and certainty of work that that gave me.
I suspect that Pool Men wern't assigned to ships until the last minute to save wages, the Pool was owned by the shipowners afterall.
I joined BP, not through the Pool, but applying to them directly through a letter. My Pool was Southampton, so I would have had to continue shipping out of there, had I stayed with the Pool, and that would have meant a seagoing career in Passenger boats, and I didn't want that.


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## jmcg

Dickeyboy

In later years the "Pool" could and indeed did send you to a ship in another UK port that would or could be serviced by a local -if there were any available. I joined Fyffes jobs in Southampton and Barry -two well established "Pools". 

Towards my end in '83 there were comparatively few AB's around compared to the halcyon days of the late 60's and 70's. That could have been a contributory factor in the transiting "pool" sailor.

BW

J


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## Pat Kennedy

At least when working for Blueys you had a good idea of which ships were in dock, both in Liverpool and Birkenhead, so when your leave was up and you reported in to Odyssey Works, you knew more or less where you would end up.
On the pool, I used to buy a copy of the Liverpool Journal of Commerce at the Mersey Ferry terminal and read the list of ships in dock,and estimated departure dates. That way I was forewarned what was likely to be going through the pool that day. 
Sometimes, if you told the pool guy that you fancied a trip in a tanker, for example, he would graciously do the honours. I got some real good jobs off the pool.(and some stinkers)


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## dom

*dom*

being on the Pool in Leith i joined more ships around the UK than i ever did joining one in Leith


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## Windsor

Bit late to put my twopennorth in I suppose but I always understood DHU stood for Deck Hand Utility.
Windsor


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## Pat McCardle

Donald McGhee said:


> Referred to somewhat uncharitably as Uneducated deck hand or Educated deck hand, but a common term for ayone not of AB rate, although there was always a degree of controversy abot the need for anything more than EDH (Efficient) and AB, which was the natural progression.


AB had a Lifeboatmans certificate + 3 years sea service, if you had an EDH, 1 years sea service if you passed the exam at sea school, where you got 6 months advance of sea time, but no LBC that is the rate you stayed at(Thumb)


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## brimar

I always thought you had to have a Lifeboat Cert before you could achieve EDH.I remember taking mine in Durban while with Union Castle as an SOS. All the time that I was with Union Castle there were always at least one DHU onboard.


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## cueball44

I recall the beginning of the 70s on the tugs UTC before we were compelled to go for tickets, standing on the deck of the ''Welshman'', the mate showed up and asked why we were standing around, one of the lads replied while pointing to this new lad who had an ABs ticket and was on more money than us ''we are waiting for him to show us the way'', to which the mate turned round and said ''ok you have made your point, now lets get this towing gear ready''. Soon after we were all required to go for tickets. 'cueball44'


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## Hamish Mackintosh

dom said:


> being on the Pool in Leith i joined more ships around the UK than i ever did joining one in Leith


Like you, I was on the Goole pool, and if one wanted to ship "deep sea" one had to travel to other pools


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## PADDY

Sailed with two D.H.Us. on Blueys, both Ex-Army men.


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## Pat Thompson

Greetings,

And I always thought it stood for "Deck Hand Unwashed" (exclam)


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## trevor page

I signed on the Ferries as DHU after many years sweating my guts out in the boiler room deep sea, later took my lifeboat ticket at Liverpool and my EDH at St. Katherines Dock., Then went back deep sea.


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## Bridie

Was "sacked" by Blue Star as a Deck Cadet (not suitable officer material - fraternised with crew) and so signed on the Dundee pool. Herbie tried to persuade me to try another company, but I agreed with Blue Star's thoughts of me! I was DHU on two ships, then took EDH and Lifeboat at St Katherine's. Finally AB.


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## Klaatu83

All this is an indication of the extent to which shore-side management have been complicating sea-going personnel with a lot of unnecessary and incomprehensible acronyms. There used to be a time when ships employed entities know simply as "Ordinary Seamen". However, somewhere along the way, that job description seems to have became too straightforward for the people back in the home office with the suites and ties. Now, in place of "Ordinary Seaman", American merchant ships have either a "General Vessel's Assistant" (GVA) or a "Deck-Engine Utility" (DEU), depending upon which company and union are involved. However, regardless of which grandiose title they bestow upon the gentlemen in question, they are still the same old "Ordinary Seaman" we've always had. I suppose this is all a result of the same mindset that has somehow magically transformed the cashier in a shop into a "Sales Associate".

Incidentally, back in the days when we had "Ordinary Seamen", one of the principal distinctions was that an Able Seaman was required to be able to distinguish colors. I don't know about the British Merchant Navy, but I encountered a surprising number of otherwise-competent professional seaman who never got their AB do***ents simply because they were color-blind, and who remained Ordinary Seamen throughout their entire sea-going careers. I even recall a highly experienced Bos'n who was actually officially rated as an Ordinary Seaman, simply because he happened to be color-blind, and had thus been unable to get an AB do***ent.


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## PeterDD

Rather uncharitably the "Company" seamen in BP referred to the DHU as "Daft, Hopeless and Useless".

Happy New Year!


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## brimar

I remember on leaving Sea Training School back in the early 60's that you had to take a Ministry of Transport Sight Test which included a Lantern Test which detected if you were colour blind.
All changed now as I think you have to go to an MCA Appointed Doctor for a medical which includes a sight test....If you are fit and healthy and you can see, you are then presented with a 'ENG1' Certificate


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## cueball44

PeterDD said:


> Rather uncharitably the "Company" seamen in BP referred to the DHU as "Daft, Hopeless and Useless".
> 
> Happy New Year!


There were many men who could do almost anything aboard a ship (especially on the deck) but could not write it down, i do not think any of those could be referred to as ''daft,hopeless or useless''.(Smoke) 'cueball44'


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## Binnacle

brimar said:


> I remember on leaving Sea Training School back in the early 60's that you had to take a Ministry of Transport Sight Test which included a Lantern Test which detected if you were colour blind.
> All changed now as I think you have to go to an MCA Appointed Doctor for a medical which includes a sight test....If you are fit and healthy and you can see, you are then presented with a 'ENG1' Certificate


brimar, I think you are slightly confused. An ENG1 is the Articles of Agreement which all crew sign (except apprentices) on joining a foreign going vessel. You would certainly not be presented with such a do***ent, which is retained by the master until the agreement expires.


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## Ray Mac

Binnacle said:


> brimar, I think you are slightly confused. An ENG1 is the Articles of Agreement which all crew sign (except apprentices) on joining a foreign going vessel. You would certainly not be presented with such a do***ent, which is retained by the master until the agreement expires.


An ENG 1 means that you are fit to go to sea on any articales be them FG or HT you cannot sign on without your ENG 1, sometimes you may only be allowed to do HT or standby.

Ray


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## brimar

Sorry 'Binnacle' not confused at all !....i think you may be a little behind the times.
(ENG 1) Seafarers Medical Certificate (MSF 4104/ REV06020
is issued by the Government of the United Kingdom in compliance with the requirement of article 2(a)(iii) of the Merchant Ships (minimum standards) Convention 1976 (ILO No. 147 & No.73) & the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification & Watchkeeping for Seafarers,1978,as ammended in 1995.
These days it all comes under what is know as STCW 95

More info on The MCA Web Site, search:- MSN 1765(M)

Cheers, 
Brian.


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## Dickyboy

PeterDD said:


> Rather uncharitably the "Company" seamen in BP referred to the DHU as "Daft, Hopeless and Useless".
> 
> Happy New Year!


For some reason, while I was with BP we took on a couple of Somali seamen. (This was on a Brit crewed ship) I can't remember why when or where they got taken on. Or whether they signed on as DHU's or not. But your description of DHU fits the bill with them.
This was in the late 60s- mid 70s.


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## Binnacle

brimar said:


> Sorry 'Binnacle' not confused at all !....i think you may be a little behind the times.
> (ENG 1) Seafarers Medical Certificate (MSF 4104/ REV06020
> is issued by the Government of the United Kingdom in compliance with the requirement of article 2(a)(iii) of the Merchant Ships (minimum standards) Convention 1976 (ILO No. 147 & No.73) & the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification & Watchkeeping for Seafarers,1978,as ammended in 1995.
> These days it all comes under what is know as STCW 95
> 
> More info on The MCA Web Site, search:- MxtSN 1765(M)
> 
> Cheers,
> Brian.


My apologies Brian, the confusion is on my side. To check about the ENG 1 I consulted my ship's business textbooks which are 1950 vintage, obviously behind the times.


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## brimar

No probs Binnacle.....I also find it difficult at times keeping up with changes that the MCA make........Had to upgrade my Old Boatmans Licence last year to the New 'Boatmasters Licence'.what a proformance that was !!
Cheers,
Brian.


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## Tom(Tucker)Kirby

Does anyone remember Mr Rep at Mann Island Liverpool? he usually gave you a choice of three ships to pick from, if you refused all he would suspend you, so I would say to him I would like to go to Brazil or Japan or the States, or wherever and he would send me off to the relevant shipping lines, if nothing was available I would then go the London Pool. That way I visited everywhere in the world. And how many of us remember the old Pool at Canning Place? Speaking of Acronyms, we all know of those in the Discharge book such as VG. VNC. and DR. has anyone ever asked for and received a "Endorsment Not Required". It is an option to spite the old man if you know he is wrong and vindictive. DHU's many of them in Blue Flu. and CPR.


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## E.Martin

*Dhu*



John Crossland said:


> Uncertified/Uncertificated


If I remember right a DHU was not allowed to go no further than 12 ft off the deck.


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## Thenavigator4

If a DHU was not allowed more than 12 feet off the deck, how does that apply when painting the ships crest or the side off a stage? It puts you more than 12 feet above sea level! Or what about sujeeing the bridge front!
Ernest


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## berniedonnelly

if i remember correctly ,most DHU's were employed on a seasonal basis by sealink etc, they were ex royal navy seaman who had no ''formal '' merchant navy qualifications and remainded DHU's untill they attained there EDH and lifeboat tickets, never heard of them sailing ''deepsea'' as uncertified seaman could only work hometrade or on unfederated ships ie crescent,everards etc... hth

Bernie


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## Anchorman

[ never heard of them sailing ''deepsea'' as uncertified seaman could only work hometrade or on unfederated ships ie crescent,everards etc... hth

Bernie[/QUOTE]


Hi Bernie.
My brother started off DHU. He was 18 and too old to go to training school. His first ship was the PARDO deepsea. In fact he never went coasting. After 12 months he did EDH etc. He recalls working up the mast first trip, so I guess that blows the 12 ft rule out of the water. That was early 60s
Regards
Neil


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## slick

All,
Another TLA (it may have come up elsewhere) DBS we used to encounter them in Australia looking for a passage back to the UK.
I seem to remember that they were not paid?, what happened to them when they returned to the pool as I think they were mostly 'jumpers'

Yours aye,

slick


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## matthew flinders

slick said:


> All,
> Another TLA (it may have come up elsewhere) DBS we used to encounter them in Australia looking for a passage back to the UK.
> I seem to remember that they were not paid?, what happened to them when they returned to the pool as I think they were mostly 'jumpers'
> 
> Yours aye,
> 
> slick


I think the pc term for 'jumpers' was 'failed to rejoin'.


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## E.Martin

*Mast*



Anchorman said:


> [ never heard of them sailing ''deepsea'' as uncertified seaman could only work hometrade or on unfederated ships ie crescent,everards etc... hth
> 
> Bernie



Hi Bernie.
My brother started off DHU. He was 18 and too old to go to training school. His first ship was the PARDO deepsea. In fact he never went coasting. After 12 months he did EDH etc. He recalls working up the mast first trip, so I guess that blows the 12 ft rule out of the water. That was early 60s
Regards
Neil[/QUOTE]

If your brother went up the mast, hung himself off and lowered himself with the gantline on his on his first trip at sea he did well,maybe he came down the ladder on a bosuns chair with a hook attached.
12 ft rule regarding a DHU you could not order them to 
go over 12ft the choice was theirs.


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## Hamish Mackintosh

When I joined my first ship a coaster in 1949, there were two AB"s and Two "sailors"(I took the place of one of the saliors who had payed off)I was a JOS, I have never heard the rating of "Sailor" mentioned again, but I cannot recall the rating of EDH being around in 1949 either.


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## E.Martin

*Edh*



Hamish Mackintosh said:


> When I joined my first ship a coaster in 1949, there were two AB"s and Two "sailors"(I took the place of one of the saliors who had payed off)I was a JOS, I have never heard the rating of "Sailor" mentioned again, but I cannot recall the rating of EDH being around in 1949 either.


I do not know when the EDH started,I got mine in 1950.


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## Hamish Mackintosh

E.Martin said:


> I do not know when the EDH started,I got mine in 1950.


Sorry, I am not implying EDH was not around in 1949, My queiry was more on the "Sailor" rating, I was on the coast, and I remember sailing with JOS,SOS, Sailors,and AB's, but never ran into the rating again after about 1951


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## barrinoz

I've posted my father's discharge book pages in my photo gallery and it's interesting to note (I've just checked because of this thread) that he signed on as 'O.S.' for a few years, then as 'Sailor' for a few years, then as A.B. First sign-on date was 1918. Final one 1940. Some of the older hands would probably know when the rating 'Sailor' was discontinued.
barrinoz.


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## matthew flinders

Hamish Mackintosh said:


> Sorry, I am not implying EDH was not around in 1949, My queiry was more on the "Sailor" rating, I was on the coast, and I remember sailing with JOS,SOS, Sailors,and AB's, but never ran into the rating again after about 1951


Does anyone remember which rank/s counted as AB when calculating for the payment of shorthand money? I don't think DHU or even JOS counted but I have a recollection that two SOS = 1 AB. No doubt those with a better memory will put me straight. Thanks


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## Hamish Mackintosh

I don't recall short hand money being calculated that way,on the "Ivybank' we were always short handed around the NZ and Oz coasts,and as I recall, we were given the missing crews stipend, divied up between us all,at payoff time of course, and as things turned out, I was in debt on my actual wages after being out close to two years, but with short hand money, Sundays at sea, and overtime, I had a fair sized pay off, I had of course sent an allotment home to my dear old Ma


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## Anchorman

matthew flinders said:


> Does anyone remember which rank/s counted as AB when calculating for the payment of shorthand money? I don't think DHU or even JOS counted but I have a recollection that two SOS = 1 AB. No doubt those with a better memory will put me straight. Thanks



We paid 2 ABs off in Sydney with "alcohol" problems. 2 DHUs who had never been to sea signed on for the trip back to UK and we got shorthand money,so guess you are right. Not sure about the 2 SOS=1 AB but do seem to recall something about this.
Rgds
Neil


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## matthew flinders

Hamish Mackintosh said:


> I don't recall short hand money being calculated that way,on the "Ivybank' we were always short handed around the NZ and Oz coasts,and as I recall, we were given the missing crews stipend, divied up between us all,at payoff time .....


Yes, you are right to a degree. The calculation was employed by the owners to reduce the amount of the divi.


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## Pat Kennedy

slick said:


> All,
> Another TLA (it may have come up elsewhere) DBS we used to encounter them in Australia looking for a passage back to the UK.
> I seem to remember that they were not paid?, what happened to them when they returned to the pool as I think they were mostly 'jumpers'
> 
> Yours aye,
> 
> slick


Slick, 
DBS was the acronym for 'distressed British seaman'
Could have applied to all of us at some time or other I guess.
I was paid off an iron ore carrier in Madeira with dysentery, and after recovery in hospital, I was shipped home on the next passing British ship as DBS. 
It happened to be Royal Mail's Andes, and I was treated well, fed regularly and allowed to do whatever I pleased, within reason.
After arrival in Southampton, I asked if I could sign on for the next cruise, as I was well impressed with the ambience of that particular ship.
Regards, 
Pat(Thumb)


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## PollY Anna

Pat sorry to stick my pennies worth in but DBS stood for Distressed British Subject. Agree we were the only poeple that took advantage of the service but it was for the use of all. Fred and other coasting companies would use DHU's It was a good way to get Deep Sea if you didn't get to Sea School (under 17 and a half) but I sailed with them we had one on a trip lasting nearly a year and it went all over the World and he signed on from the Liverpool Pool
your neck of the woods. I was on the London Pool Presscott Street (Dock Street) and it was known as the Flyout Pool you could be flown out to anywhere in the World at a moments notice (2 hours to get a British Passport can't get it that quick today). Any way it's all a long way in the past such happy days.

Ron


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## Hamish Mackintosh

PollY Anna said:


> Pat sorry to stick my pennies worth in but DBS stood for Distressed British Subject. Agree we were the only poeple that took advantage of the service but it was for the use of all. Fred and other coasting companies would use DHU's It was a good way to get Deep Sea if you didn't get to Sea School (under 17 and a half) but I sailed with them we had one on a trip lasting nearly a year and it went all over the World and he signed on from the Liverpool Pool
> your neck of the woods. I was on the London Pool Presscott Street (Dock Street) and it was known as the Flyout Pool you could be flown out to anywhere in the World at a moments notice (2 hours to get a British Passport can't get it that quick today). Any way it's all a long way in the past such happy days.
> 
> Ron


Depends who you ask


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## Ray Mac

matthew flinders said:


> I think the pc term for 'jumpers' was 'failed to rejoin'.


 or skinned out:sweat:


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## Tom(Tucker)Kirby

*D.b.s.*



slick said:


> All,
> Another TLA (it may have come up elsewhere) DBS we used to encounter them in Australia looking for a passage back to the UK.
> I seem to remember that they were not paid?, what happened to them when they returned to the pool as I think they were mostly 'jumpers'
> 
> Yours aye,
> 
> slick


 a D.B.S. does get paid if the skipper allows him to sign on and he works until arrival in U.K. and he gets the usual discharge in his book. 
but no workie no pay.


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## barrinoz

D.B.S. or Distressed British Seamen as we referred to them were usually guys who had skinned out and got caught or gave themselves up (usually after sobering up (Jester)). I had one as a cabin mate on the ***berland. He replaced the skinned-out cabin mate I'd had up till then. If they worked, as this one did, they got paid the going rate. No watches and no overtime, though, from memory.
barrinoz.


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## Binnacle

PollY Anna said:


> Pat sorry to stick my pennies worth in but DBS stood for Distressed British Subject. Ron


Any British subject may be sent home DBS at the discretion of a British consular officer. Carried two DBS home from Vancouver, neither of them were seafarers. As you rightly say, DBS does indeed stand for Distressed British Subject.


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## PollY Anna

Binnacle 

Thank you for agreeing with my statement on DBS's. (See post 55) It still goes on and they are expected to pay back the cost's. They are normaly flown today lets face it there are few British ships and even less British Seaman.

Ron


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## trotterdotpom

I always thought DBS stood for Distressed British Seaman - interesting to hear the proper term. These days we are "Citizens" instead of "subjects" so I suppose it is DBC.

Remember carrying one home from Vitoria, Brazil, on Common Bros "Iron Crown. He was a Junior Engineer (I think) and had fallen in love. He stayed in the hospital on board, Luckily he spoke the language - Geordie.

John T.


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