# Harwich - Hoek Van Holland



## nevillethorndike (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi,

I have received this via the Dover Ferry Photos Forum contact form.

"(1) How many hours it took a passenger car ferry to cross the trans-North Sea from the Nieuwe Maas river at the Hoek of Holland to Parkeston Quay at Harwich (vice versa would be the same I’m assuming) during the 1950s– specifically on the ships that had the old cargo holds (not side doors)for the vehicles? These were not Ro-Ro’s. I am specifically looking at the year 1955, but including the time frame of post WWII until the 1960s.

(2) How many nautical miles is it from the Hoek to Parkeston Quay at Harwich?

(3) The names of the two most used British ferries, with vehicle cargo access, used on this route during the 1950s, such as the SS Arnhem?(I am writing about the SMZ ferries MV Koningin (Queen) Emma, and her sister ship, MV Prinses (Princess) Beatrix. I know MS Koningin Wilhelmina, joined them for the bi-daily service beginning in 1960. In 1968, a new generation of roll-on/roll-off car ferries replaced the almost thirty-year-old sister ships, leaving Wilhelmina as an emergency backup).

(4) How long, on average, it took to load, and unload, the cars from the cargo holds, and whether this time was factored into the time of the crossing – and thus, the need for sleeper ferries?"

Time to set the ol' cogs working and any comments would be appreciated

Rgds
Nigel Thornton (Admin @ http://www.doverferryphotosforums.co.uk/)


----------



## duquesa (Aug 31, 2006)

I was on this service long ago. Served on St.George & Avalon. The day service from Harwich to Hook was a full speed affair to make the arrival time around 18.00 at Hook. The return was not and speed was adjusted to make the arrival time at PQ. Can't remember any of the detail you are after but recall obviously all the mentioned ships. St.George would normally make the day passage on four engines but back overnight on two. Too long ago now to try remembering much else. The St.Edmund came in as well but I did not serve on her. I also remember the Arnhem and Amsterdam. I served more often on the train ferries to Zeebrugge and Dunkirk.


----------



## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

In 1955 Harwich-Hook services were run by turbine steamers "Amsterdam" (1950, 5,092grt) and "Arnhem" (1947, 4,891grt) of British Railways and motor ships "Koningin Emma" (1939, 4,353grt) and "Prinses Beatrix" (1939, 4,353grt) of S.M.Zeeland. The BR vessels were essentially 'night' boats with extensive berthing accommodation whereas the SMZ vessels had a much larger passenger certificate presumably for day operation. A limited amount of cargo, private cars etc was carried in conventional holds and craned on and off. Service speeds were about 21knots for the turbines and 21.5 for the Dutch ships.


----------



## nevillethorndike (Feb 9, 2006)

Sincere thanks to both.

Rgds
Nigel Thornton


----------



## loco (Dec 10, 2010)

On virtually the same run in the 50s were three BAOR ships, run for and on behalf of the British Armed forces in Germany, with their own train connections both in the UK and to Germany. They were EMPIRE PARKESTON, EMPIRE WANSBECK and VIENNA.

http://baor-locations.org/TroopTransport.aspx.html

DUKE OF YORK was also on the run in the 50s on the overnight service; she had a collision with, I think, HAITIAN VICTORY where the ferry lost part of her bow, with, i think, some casualties.

I remember the three Dutch and British ships mentioned, and cargo work was I think completed well within the port turnaround times-don't forget each ship only did one round trip every 48 hours. As stated, the British ships ran the night service, the Dutch ones the day service.It wasn't until ST GEORGE and KONINGEN BEATRIX were introduced in 1968 that the ships did a round trip in 24 hrs.

The WILHEMINA and AVALON sometimes acted as duplicate sailings in summer when the newer RoRos were fully booked (or was this duplication during the 'classic' ferry era-can't remember); and there was a brief period when there were three sailings each way in summer (0930, 1200 and 2200, roughly).

The AVALON undertook a series of cruises from Harwich when, I think, she was 'spare' after the introduction of the two RoRos. This ship was already out of date when she was delivered, in some respects; DFDS had just introduced the ENGLAND on the Harwich-Esbjerg service, and she was a motor ship and Ro Ro, rather than a turbine 'classic' ferry. As has been posted, until the 1968 RoRo pair, the ships had conventional holds and any cars were lifted on or off with appropriate gear by shore cranes.

Harwich-Hoek in a straight line is 105M, so about 110M when routing is taken into account.

HTH

martyn


----------



## CarolineWGW (May 9, 2019)

Hi Everyone: This is CarolineWGW, and I am the lady writing an enormous book (over 800 pages to date) for the past 8+ years. This thread was started for me by Nigel Thornton. Getting primary sources and properly citing works is vital. I am looking for eddyw and the terrific answer he wrote on January 16, 2018. Did this come from the book, _Harwich-Hoek Van Holland: A 100 Years of Service_ by Miles Cowsill, Frank Haalmeijer, and John Hendy? I cannot get a hold of this book, and very much need to know the pages you quoted, or if you wrote this off the top of your head, I would need your full real name to cite in my book. Please feel free to Google me. I am Caroline Wolter Hall writing, _Marion's Daughter, Carol_©2010. It was difficult to navigate my way here, so I hope that I may be notified by email, if there is an answer. I am very grateful. Thank you so much.


----------



## TommyRob (Nov 14, 2010)

I seem to recall the Koningins left at 12.00 and were alongside for discharge at 18.00.


----------



## CarolineWGW (May 9, 2019)

TommyRob. I'm sorry. Your answer makes no sense to me. Very frustrating. I am writing an 800+ page book. Please be more specific. Only one was a Queen; the other a Princess. 
If people are giving answers they find in a book, I need to cite that book and its page numbers. 

EddyW's answer sounds like it was quote from a book I do not have access to. 
I need a knight in shining armour. 
Canadian gal writing Pulitzer in Ontario, Canada. 
Thanks so much men! 
Caroline Wolter Hall


----------



## loco (Dec 10, 2010)

CarolineWGW;

Somewhere I have the book 'Harwich Hoek van Holland; 100 years of service'.

If you need specific answers, please ask and I'll try and find the book.

Living in Harwich all my life, and working for the Harwich Harbour Authority for the last 33 years, I do have some memories and photos, and also some family members worked on the later ST GEORGE, ST EDMUND, and STENA NORMANDIE/ST NICHOLAS.

Martyn


----------



## CarolineWGW (May 9, 2019)

eddyw said:


> In 1955 Harwich-Hook services were run by turbine steamers "Amsterdam" (1950, 5,092grt) and "Arnhem" (1947, 4,891grt) of British Railways and motor ships "Koningin Emma" (1939, 4,353grt) and "Prinses Beatrix" (1939, 4,353grt) of S.M.Zeeland. The BR vessels were essentially 'night' boats with extensive berthing accommodation whereas the SMZ vessels had a much larger passenger certificate presumably for day operation. A limited amount of cargo, private cars etc was carried in conventional holds and craned on and off. Service speeds were about 21knots for the turbines and 21.5 for the Dutch ships.


Hi EddyG. 

Caroline here. I hope you're doing well. I thought I already messaged you about where you got this information from, but it's hard to navigate this site. 

Please can you tell me where you found the following you wrote:

In 1955 Harwich-Hook services were run by turbine steamers "Amsterdam" (1950, 5,092grt) and "Arnhem" (1947, 4,891grt) of British Railways and motor ships "Koningin Emma" (1939, 4,353grt) and "Prinses Beatrix" (1939, 4,353grt) of S.M.Zeeland. The BR vessels were essentially 'night' boats with extensive berthing accommodation whereas the SMZ vessels had a much larger passenger certificate presumably for day operation. A limited amount of cargo, private cars etc was carried in conventional holds and craned on and off. Service speeds were about 21knots for the turbines and 21.5 for the Dutch ships."

If you completely wrote every single word off the top of your head, I need to cite you with your full name, credentials, and how you would like it to appear in my 800+ page book. 

If you found some, or part of the information in this book (or any other book), 'Harwich Hoek van Holland; 100 years of service,' I really need to know the page numbers as I cannot get a hold of this book (or the name of any book you did use) please. I cannot use your information unless I know where it came from. 

Thank you so very, very much. I'm truly grateful. Please feel free to email me at [email protected]. I'm finding it too difficult to navigate in here. I'm getting a little frustrated with the number of people writing back quoting Wikipedia. 

Warmest regards,
Caroline in Keswick, Ontario. Canada


----------



## Gijsha (Mar 2, 2015)

Caroline, The book mentioned by you is available here: https://www.boekwinkeltjes.nl/su/?q...=&img=0&oud=0&t=1&n=1&prijsvan=0.00&prijstot= at low cost.
Regards,


----------

