# T.I.D.tugs of WW2



## BillH

If all goes to schedule, my illustrated book on this subject matter should be in print in early September.

A4 of around 110 pages, it details the design concept, pre-fabricated construction methods etc and the careers of all 182 vessels.


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## david freeman

St Andrews Fish Dock Hull in the 70's ha two TID, that were voith synder propelled. The names for the two tugs escape me?? Memory???


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## BillH

david freeman said:


> St Andrews Fish Dock Hull in the 70's ha two TID, that were voith synder propelled. The names for the two tugs escape me?? Memory???


David,
there were five T.I.D.s at Hull owned by St Andrews and Hull Steam Trawlers
TRIUNIE ex TID 28
BERNIE ex TID 86
GILDER ex TID 87
KIERO ex TID 44
and DAGGER ex HILLMAN ex TID 79

All TIDs were steam powered with Compound two cyl. engines.

The Voith tugs came later and I think there were three of them the only names I recall being AURORA and NEPTUNE

United Towing had four ex TIDs - HILLMAN, BOWMAN, YEOMAN and FENMAN (HILLMAN was quickly sold to Pigott in Grimsby but not given a LADY name

Fosters had one - TIDSPUR

Further upstream at Selby BOCM had ARDOL, OCO which was sunk in collision, raised, repaired and renamed SELBY OLYMPIAN


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## john hardy

as the "chant" tankers were constructed in a similar manner, would you be doing a book on them in the future?


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## Dickyboy

Is this one of 'em?


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## BillH

john hardy said:


> as the "chant" tankers were constructed in a similar manner, would you be doing a book on them in the future?


No John, that would be duplicating already publish work.

Both the Chants and the dry cargo version Fabrics both researched by Rev Andrew Huckett, have recently been published over several editions by the World Ship Society Ltd in their monthly journal MARINE NEWS, Supplement 

I had started to compile the vessel details but stopped when I became aware of Andrews work being more advanced


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## john hardy

thanks bill, I didn't know that.


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## BillH

Dickyboy said:


> Is this one of 'em?


No, they are smaller than that. See the link

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/731146/title/sea-gem/cat/516


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## alaric

Does anyone have information on the TID tugs built by Malta Dockyard in the late 1960s?
Same hull design but powered by a Kelvin diesel and a modern funnel.
3 were delivered to East African Railways and Harbours and used in Dar es Salaam
Originally named TID1, 2 and 3 they were renamed Rufiji, Ruvuma and Ruvu.
Others of the same design were delivered to West Africa I believe.
The design, orders and supervision were provided by the Crown Agents, Millbank acting for the African clients.
Malta Maritime Museum has a very good model, about 1/10th scale. Tucked away in an upstairs store room when I last visited, not on public display.


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## BillH

alaric said:


> Does anyone have information on the TID tugs built by Malta Dockyard in the late 1960s?
> Same hull design but powered by a Kelvin diesel and a modern funnel.
> 3 were delivered to East African Railways and Harbours and used in Dar es Salaam
> Originally named TID1, 2 and 3 they were renamed Rufiji, Ruvuma and Ruvu.
> Others of the same design were delivered to West Africa I believe.
> The design, orders and supervision were provided by the Crown Agents, Millbank acting for the African clients.
> Malta Maritime Museum has a very good model, about 1/10th scale. Tucked away in an upstairs store room when I last visited, not on public display.


During my research for the book I was in touch with a retired Marine Superintendent from East African Railways & Harbours Company at the time based in Dar-Es-Salem, (Unfortunately his name mislaid) and he provided me with much the same information as you have. I also have the same image in the book.

“The specification for the tugs was drawn up by Crown Agents. I am not sure if they also provided the design, but from memory the lines were the same as drawings and photos I have seen of the original T.I.D.’s. I believe that West German and Netherlands yards tendered for the job, but the order was awarded to Malta Dockyard. They were built 1967’ish, with Kelvin T8 engines on a T.I.D. hull design with fairly modern funnel, basic unglazed wheelhouse and dealt with the barges at the port. Until 1970 they were known as Malta T.I.D. 1, 2 and 3. During 1970 modifications were carried out, the bulwarks were removed due to extensive damage, leaving just a 75 x 75mm angle toe board and the transom was rounded off each side with a 300mm radius. After modifications T.I.D. 1 became RUFIJI, 2- RUVU and 3- RUVUMA (all Tanzanian rivers). They gave good service during my time in Dar, but I have no knowledge of them post 1973”.


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## alaric

BillH said:


> During my research for the book I was in touch with a retired Marine Superintendent from East African Railways & Harbours Company ant the time based in Dar-Es-Salem, (Unfortunately his name mislaid) and he provided me with much the same information as you have. I also have the same image in the book.
> 
> “The specification for the tugs was drawn up by Crown Agents. I am not sure if they also provided the design, but from memory the lines were the same as drawings and photos I have seen of the original T.I.D.’s. I believe that West German and Netherlands yards tendered for the job, but the order was awarded to Malta Dockyard. They were built 1967’ish, with Kelvin T8 engines on a T.I.D. hull design with fairly modern funnel, basic unglazed wheelhouse and dealt with the barges at the port. Until 1970 they were known as Malta T.I.D. 1, 2 and 3. During 1970 modifications were carried out, the bulwarks were removed due to extensive damage, leaving just a 75 x 75mm angle toe board and the transom was rounded off each side with a 300mm radius. After modifications T.I.D. 1 became RUFIJI, 2- RUVU and 3- RUVUMA (all Tanzanian rivers). They gave good service during my time in Dar, but I have no knowledge of them post 1973”.


Thanks, it is me, Dick Goodey you are quoting.


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## BillH

alaric said:


> Thanks, it is me, Dick Goodey you are quoting.


Morning Dick, good to hear from you again. I thought the text looked familiar.

I suffered a PC malfunction a while back and lost a fair bit. Fortunately I had several backups so with a new PC in place it was painstakingly reloaded although some files had to be updated.

Best wishes

Bill


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## alaric

BillH said:


> Morning Dick, good to hear from you again. I though the text looked familiar.
> 
> I suffered a PC malfunction a while back and lost a fair bit. Fortunately I had several backups so with a new PC in place it was painstakingly reloaded although some files had to be updated.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Bill


Looking forward to reading your book Bill. Do you have a definitive definition of TID?
Would like to know what happened to the African TIDs, east and west after 1973.


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## BillH

alaric said:


> Looking forward to reading your book Bill. Do you have a definitive definition of TID?
> Would like to know what happened to the African TIDs, east and west after 1973.


Extracted from book

Since introduction in 1943, the name T.I.D. has been one of the most debated subjects. Even now, it is often argued as to which derivation of T.I.D. is correct. Below are some, if not all the opinions expressed through time.
1. Tug Invasion Duties
2. Tug Invasion Duty
3. Tug Inshore Defence
4. Tug Inshore Duties
5. Tug Inshore and Dock
6. Tug In Dock
7. Tug Intermediate Design
8. Tug Inland Developed
9. Tug Inland Distribution
10. Temporary Invasion Design.
Although, also referred to as being short for TIDDLER, the most logical choice, based purely on the scope of their recorded employment, appears to be either “Tug Inshore Duties” or “Tug Inshore and Dock”, the latter being the preferred. While T.I.D may be the official class nomenclature they were often referred to as TIDs . Both name formats were used when painted up on the hull and the names quoted for the small number that made their way into Lloyds Register were always referred therein as TID xx rather than T.I.D.


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## alaric

Thanks Bill, I was hoping that your research had finally pinned it down but it seems it remains a matter of opinion.
I favour Tug Inshore Duty, but it is just an opinion.


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## Somerton

In the 1950/60s the Belfast Harbour Commissioners had 3 harbour tugs 2 Tids the Sir Milne , Somerton and a diesel tug Sir Kenneth . She was built by Charles Hill in Bristol with a H and W engine . I was mate in the Sir Kenneth . Skipper in the Somerton when she was relieving the Sir K . Both the Tids were oil fuel steam tugs . Happy days . 
Alex C .


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## BillH

Somerton said:


> In the 1950/60s the Belfast Harbour Commissioners had 3 harbour tugs 2 Tids the Sir Milne , Somerton and a diesel tug Sir Kenneth . She was built by Charles Hill in Bristol with a H and W engine . I was mate in the Sir Kenneth . Skipper in the Somerton when she was relieving the Sir K . Both the Tids were oil fuel steam tugs . Happy days .
> Alex C .


SOMERTON and SIR MILNE went south and ended their days alongside at Malahide, unfortunately submerged


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## loco

Two still alongside in Maldon, Essex, but apparently unused though under restoration.

One named TID 172, the other BRENT.

A friend took photos about June of them there.

martyn


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## BillH

loco said:


> Two still alongside in Maldon, Essex, but apparently unused though under restoration.
> 
> One named TID 172, the other BRENT.
> 
> A friend took photos about June of them there.
> 
> martyn


Thanks Martyn,

T.I.D.172 was towed from Mistley after the restoration project ran out of money.
BRENT has been in preserved vessel service but is going through a refurbishment


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## Dartskipper

Brent was operated by the P.L.A immediately after the War when my Dad worked for the dredging department of the Authority. He was amazed that she was still in existence so many years later.


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## BillH

Dartskipper said:


> Brent was operated by the P.L.A immediately after the War when my Dad worked for the dredging department of the Authority. He was amazed that she was still in existence so many years later.


Roy this extracted from the book typifies the detail of one of 182 vessel histories

T.I.D. 159 c/s GCML
O.N. 181130. 54g. 0n. 65.0 x 17.0 x 7.4 feet.
C.2-cyl. (12½” and 26” x 18”) by John Dickinson and Sons Ltd., Sunderland. Boiler by John G. Kincaid and Co. Ltd.,
Greenock. Oil fuel. 220 IHP. 8.5 knots.
05.11.1945: (Ministry Job No. A/MS/1368) launched by Wm. Pickersgill and Sons Ltd., Sunderland (Yard No. 286) for the
Ministry of War Transport, London, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
09.04.1946: Registered at Sunderland, vessel No.10 of 1946. 
12.04.1946: Completed for the Ministry of Transport, London, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle,Hull, manager at the Ministry). Placed in lay-up under care and maintenance of Townsend Bros. (Ferries) Ltd.,London. 
xx.091946: Sold to the Port of London Authority.,London. 
17.10.1946: Registered in London, vessel No.378 of 1946.
28.02.1947: Registered as BRENT. 
xx.07.1970:Sold to the Stour Salvage Co. Ltd., Mistley, for demolition. 
01.06.1971: Sold to Ron and Janet Hall, Maldon, for preservation. 
20.06.1971: Berthed at Hythe, Maldon. Regularly in steam on the East Coast and further afield.
xx.08.1994: Placed in lay-up due to boiler concerns. 
xx.10.2002: Dry-docked at Maldon. Bottom overplated and hull partially re-plated. 
21.12.2010: The Steam Tug Brent Trust formed. 
10.07.2011: Vessel placed in the ownership of the Trust. 
2019: Still in existence. Restoration in progress


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## Dartskipper

Thanks for the comprehensive history, Bill. I saw her at Maldon a few years ago. She deserves to be conserved.

Regards,
Roy.


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## russellward

*NZ's Equivalent*

A consortium of NZ boatbuilders with limited experience in steel built around 20 YTLs for the US Army for service in the Pacific during WW2. The first few were built in Australia and deemed unsafe but with some tweaks to the lines done by the RNZN Dockyard, they proved to be very capable tugs. I think the hull shape was quite aesthetic. With 14 tons of direct reversing 6 cyl Atlas Imperial and huge fuel tanks down low, they had a massive righting moment and were certainly uncomfortable in a steep sea (aren't most tugs?). The NZ Navy took three uncompleted ships post war and finished them off. One became a dockyard tug, one a diving tender and one was based in Westport. Fine ships and about the only time I've had a yodel at the leward rail at sea was on the dockyard one Arataki. But only the one time....


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## Stephen Carter

*TIDs*



BillH said:


> SOMERTON and SIR MILNE went south and ended their days alongside at Malahide, unfortunately submerged


Bill, not quite, I remember once in the mid 1980s when I was in Drogheda in the TID Salisbury, I travelled on the train down to Malahide to view the Sir Milne and Somerton derelict on the beach. Some years later in 1994, again in the Salisbury, I was in a little port just on the north side of Clogher Head called Port Oriel, and there was either the Sir Milne or Somerton. She had been bought and the new owners had tried to motorise her by fitting a lorry engine and gearbox into the after accommodation with a v belt drive to the propshaft which had been disconnected from the steam engine by removing the propshaft bolts. I doubt it was successful as there was no thrust bearing and I have a feeling she was broken up at Port Oriel. I cannot now remember which of the pair this was. Both Sir Milne and Somerton when at Malahide where owned by Jack Martin and Freddy Oldham, the same people I bought the Salisbury from. Stephen


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## BillH

Hi Stephen,

That was SIR MILNE

I based my submerged statement on a set of photographs shown to me some time ago by the late Chris Trumann of bot vessels sunk alongside at Malahide.

The full details below

T.I.D. 152 c/s GCBX 
O.N. 180165. 54g. 0n. 65.0 x 17.0 x 7.4 feet.
C.2-cyl. (12½” and 26” x 18”) by J. Dickinson and Sons Ltd., Sunderland. Boiler by John G Kincaid and Co. Ltd., Greenock. Oil fuel. 220 IHP. 36.4nhp. 8½ knots.
Post 1972: Unspecified type diesel.
12.07.1945: (Ministry Job No. A/MS/1361) launched by Wm. Pickersgill and Sons Ltd., Sunderland (Yard No. 279) for the Ministry of War Transport, London, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
07.09.1945: Builders Certificate issued.
08.09.1945: Registered at Sunderland, vessel No.17 of 1945. 
17.09.1945: Completed. Allocated to the South East Asia Command, (T. Phelan and Co. Ltd, Liverpool, appointed as lay-up managers).
20.03.1946: Owners restyled as the Ministry of Transport, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry). 
10.07.1946: Sold to the Belfast Harbour Commissioners, Belfast.
20.11.1946: Arrived at Albert Quay, Belfast, under tow of DUCHESS OF ABERCORN (309g./37), from Liverpool.
16.01.1947: Registered at Belfast as SIR MILNE, vessel No.1 of 1947.
29.01.1947: Moved as T.I.D. 152, from Clarendon Dock into No.2 Graving Dock. 
10.02.1947: Returned to Clarendon Dock as SIR MILNE. 
1972: Sold to C.J. Martin, for demolition at Malahide, Eire . Owner however, cut propeller shaft just astern of the steam engine and fitted a large lorry engine and gearbox in the after accommodation.
1984: Owner bankrupt. Lying at Malahide, Eire. 
199x: Whilst attempting passage from Malahide to Bangor, in gale force winds, was blown ashore at Port Oriel, Eire.
05.08.1995: Seen derelict and partially demolished at Port Oriel.
01.03.2005: Pieces of the stern and boiler seen on the beach at Port Oriel, Co. Louth.

T.I.D. 156 c/s GCKY
O.N. 180175. 54g. 0n. 65.0 x 17.0 x 7.4 feet.
C.2-cyl. (12½” and 26” x 18”) by John Dickinson and Sons Ltd., Sunderland. Boiler by Alexander Anderson and Co, Motherwell. Oil fuel. 220 IHP. 8½ knots. 
08.09.1945: (Ministry Job No. A/MS/1365) launched by Wm. Pickersgill and Sons Ltd., Sunderland (Yard No. 283) for the Ministry of War Transport, London, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
06.11.1945: Registered at Sunderland, vessel No.27 of 1945.
08.11.1945: Completed.
10.11.1945: Placed in lay-up, under care and maintenance of J. Phelan and Co. Ltd., Liverpool. 
20.03.1946: Owners restyled as the Ministry of Transport, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
10.07.1946: Sold to the Belfast Harbour Commissioners, Belfast. 
12.07.1946: Arrived at Albert Quay, Belfast, towed by DUCHESS OF ABERCORN (309g./37), from Liverpool.
19.08.1946: Moved as T.I.D. 156, from Clarendon Dock into No.1 Graving Dock. 
21.08.1946: Registered at Belfast, as SOMERTON, vessel No.15 of 1946.
18.09.1946: Returned to Clarendon Dock. 
1972: Sold to C.J. Martin, for demolition at Malahide, Eire. (may be J. C. Martin)
1984: Owner bankrupt. Lying at Malahide, Eire. 
pre 1994: Owner deceased and vessel in charge of a keeper. No ropes available for mooring so keeper burnt holes in the bottom and she became tidal.
04.12.2004: Seen lying sunk at Malahide.
06.2005: Wreck reported as having been raised and demolished at Howth.


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## Stephen Carter

*Tids*

Bill,

I do not think it was Jack Martin who attempted the conversion. I think Jack was involved in a business called A C Cranes at Dublin and Freddy Oldham was Frederick Oldham Ltd of Liverpool, scrap dealers. They often bought and sold vessels in partnership including quite a number of tugs over the years. I am pretty sure that Carmet Tug Co bought the Dunheron, ex Golden Cross, from them and going back to the 1930s Frederick Oldham Ltd stripped the machinery out of the concrete tug Cretegaff when owned by Portus. I think the Sir Milne was acquired by some other parties who carried out the conversion, I have a vague recollection of her being intended for use diving on wrecks to salvage non ferrous materials, but I cannot remember who told me this, possibly the late Captain Ian Metcalfe. 
Stephen


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## loco

There used to be a steam tug in Harwich/Felixstowe named GARY GREY (GARY GRAY?) which was owned by the owner of Grey tugs/Felixarc towage.

Was this a TID, please? I remember seeing it steam, and on Grey's moorings of Shotley, many years ago, but then it just seemed to have disappeared.

Martyn


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## BillH

If the same vessel, then no, not built until mid fifties and diesel powered

GARY GRAY
O.N. 186095. 37g. 0n. 56.9 x 16.4 x 5.9 feet.
6-cyl. 4 S.C.S.A. (8¾” x 11½”) Blackstone ER4M type by R. A. Lister (Marine Sales) Ltd., Dursley. 360bhp. 10kts. 5½ tons bollard pull. 
1954: Completed as JAYCEE by P. K. Harris & Sons Ltd., Appledore (Yard No. 55) for Clements, Knowling & Company Ltd., London. 
21.8.1954: Registered at London.
21.2.1962: Purchased by the United Towing Company Ltd., Hull and renamed LIGHTERMAN. 
21.1.1970: Owners restyled as United Towing Ltd. 
1974: Humber Tugs Ltd., appointed as managers. 
20.9.1977: Sold to Felixarc Marine Ltd. (Donald Gray, manager), Felixstowe and renamed GARY GRAY. 
1988: Sold to Heysham Boat Charters (Simpson & Sons), Heysham. 
1995: Sank at her moorings at Heysham. Declared beyond economical repair. Subsequently refitted for Hampson Marine Towing, Fleetwood. 
199x: Reported sold to Silas Oates, Falmouth and renamed GARRY GRAY for service at Holy Loch. 
3.2005: Offered for sale at £37,000, but continues laid up in 2010. 
201x: Sank at moorings in Holyhead. Subsequently raised and removed for breaking at Garston


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## loco

Thanks for the reply, Bill, about GARY GRAY.

I'm sure we had a smallish steam tug in Harwich harbour in the mid 80s-maybe it was TID 172 from Mistley, though. Whichever one it was, there was lots of smoke from the funnel when it was moving!

Martyn


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## shinz

russellward said:


> A consortium of NZ boatbuilders with limited experience in steel built around 20 YTLs for the US Army for service in the Pacific during WW2. The first few were built in Australia and deemed unsafe but with some tweaks to the lines done by the RNZN Dockyard, they proved to be very capable tugs. I think the hull shape was quite aesthetic. With 14 tons of direct reversing 6 cyl Atlas Imperial and huge fuel tanks down low, they had a massive righting moment and were certainly uncomfortable in a steep sea (aren't most tugs?). The NZ Navy took three uncompleted ships post war and finished them off. One became a dockyard tug, one a diving tender and one was based in Westport. Fine ships and about the only time I've had a yodel at the leward rail at sea was on the dockyard one Arataki. But only the one time....


Hi Russell, from memory, there was a YTL(?) moored in the Kaiapoi river up till about the time of the earthquakes, maybe earlier, I think I have some photos of it somewhere but not digital. I need a scanner. 
Steve.


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## spongebob

russellward said:


> A consortium of NZ boatbuilders with limited experience in steel built around 20 YTLs for the US Army for service in the Pacific during WW2. The first few were built in Australia and deemed unsafe but with some tweaks to the lines done by the RNZN Dockyard, they proved to be very capable tugs. I think the hull shape was quite aesthetic. With 14 tons of direct reversing 6 cyl Atlas Imperial and huge fuel tanks down low, they had a massive righting moment and were certainly uncomfortable in a steep sea (aren't most tugs?). The NZ Navy took three uncompleted ships post war and finished them off. One became a dockyard tug, one a diving tender and one was based in Westport. Fine ships and about the only time I've had a yodel at the leward rail at sea was on the dockyard one Arataki. But only the one time....


Russell , the two tugs were in service at the dock yard when I served my time and I worked on the engines of both while in the ICE shop .
I posted long ago about the mix up of the telegraph wires , must find and repost.

Bob


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## russellward

spongebob said:


> Russell , the two tugs were in service at the dock yard when I served my time and I worked on the engines of both while in the ICE shop .
> I posted long ago about the mix up of the telegraph wires , must find and repost.
> 
> Bob


Yep please do. Some skippers had difficulty manoeuvring in night corners as it was. Some used to play great tunes on the telegraph without waiting for the engineer to get it on. Brought a roar from below audible through the skylight. "Make up yer f....g mind yer bastard" and then the sound of the air compressor having to be started because there was precious little air left for another start.
I heard about the Manawanui running a bearing and it being remachined in situ with a new white metal bearing to suit.


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## russellward

shinz said:


> Hi Russell, from memory, there was a YTL(?) moored in the Kaiapoi river up till about the time of the earthquakes, maybe earlier, I think I have some photos of it somewhere but not digital. I need a scanner.
> Steve.


Might have been Arataki on her inexorable journey to the knackers in Dunedin. But she'd have been there before the earthquakes. I don't think James O'Brien made it that far south once she left Westport.


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## shinz

russellward said:


> Might have been Arataki on her inexorable journey to the knackers in Dunedin. But she'd have been there before the earthquakes. I don't think James O'Brien made it that far south once she left Westport.


Hi Russell, spot on I think, this post from this site https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/112886/title/kaiapoi/cat/505 confirms it for me at any rate, I'm sorry to read it was scrapped, a quick google found me some more info on that too. It was probably about 10 years before Dave's post I saw it there I think.
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/long-life-ends-slipway. I thought she was quite a handsome little vessel, much like the TIDs in their own way.
Steve.


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## alaric

We have debated what the initials T I D stand for.
Now what about Y T L?
Being American, could it possibly be Years Too Late??


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## loco

Having spoken to a former tug skipper, he informs me that GARY GRAY was indeed a motor tug, and that it was TID172 which was on the mooring buoys in Harwich harbour during the mid 80s.

Martyn


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## russellward

shinz said:


> Hi Russell, spot on I think, this post from this site https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/112886/title/kaiapoi/cat/505 confirms it for me at any rate, I'm sorry to read it was scrapped, a quick google found me some more info on that too. It was probably about 10 years before Dave's post I saw it there I think.
> https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/long-life-ends-slipway. I thought she was quite a handsome little vessel, much like the TIDs in their own way.
> Steve.


She was in reasonable nick when she hit Dunedin as part of Swann's Navy. He who stitched the local Area Health Board up for countless millions with felonious accounts for IT services never rendered. He was caught out and the liquidator, keen to ket his fees out of the entrails flogged her off for a pittance along with the 60' diesel tug Hikurangi. Arataki was scrapped to raise some dosh for the refurbishment of poor old similarly neglected Hik.


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## spongebob

I seem to remember that one of the tugs and a 72' HDML were moored in the river alongside the Paeroa Maritime Museum . The tug disappeared but the ML remained for a while. I am about to drive past on Thursday so I will check.
Russell, re the tug telegraph, cannot find the post but it related to the fitting of new stainless steel actuating wires from the wheelhouse to the engine room .
The fitter and his apprentice ran the wires through a devious course , connected same and tested for free and easy full scale action but they failed to check that 'full ahead' on the bridge rang full ahead in The ER.
They had lost the wire end positions when the wires crossed over out of sight so when the skipper rang half ahead to clear the berth the ER responded with half astern and further double rings saw the tug stern trying to move Stanley point further north. A lot of yelling , a lot of embarrassment all round.
It was a longer story so if I find it .........


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## russellward

BillH said:


> If all goes to schedule, my illustrated book on this subject matter should be in print in early September.
> 
> A4 of around 110 pages, it details the design concept, pre-fabricated construction methods etc and the careers of all 182 vessels.


Put me down for a copy please, Bill. Autographed title page of course!


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## russellward

spongebob said:


> I seem to remember that one of the tugs and a 72' HDML were moored in the river alongside the Paeroa Maritime Museum . The tug disappeared but the ML remained for a while. I am about to drive past on Thursday so I will check.
> Russell, re the tug telegraph, cannot find the post but it related to the fitting of new stainless steel actuating wires from the wheelhouse to the engine room .
> The fitter and his apprentice ran the wires through a devious course , connected same and tested for free and easy full scale action but they failed to check that 'full ahead' on the bridge rang full ahead in The ER.
> They had lost the wire end positions when the wires crossed over out of sight so when the skipper rang half ahead to clear the berth the ER responded with half astern and further double rings saw the tug stern trying to move Stanley point further north. A lot of yelling , a lot of embarrassment all round.
> It was a longer story so if I find it .........


The old back to front telegraphs trick. And they fell for it again! That was the ex HMNZDT Manawanui. She was sold to the Maritime Park at Paeroa NZ for a dollar or so and then (in typical museum style) neglected her for 30 years by which time her engine was pronounced to be seized (I wonder why!) and then she started weeping oil from somewhere and the local bureaukrauts demanded that she be destroyed forthwith if she couldn't be moved under her own steam. So they panicked and the crane man gave his services in exchange for the engine which he hoisted out in one and had running within months back at his shop. Nothing wrong with it at all. Still gets run up for display on occasion. 
So now we have but one left in original running condition -the James O'Brien in Picton NZ.


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## spongebob

russellward said:


> The old back to front telegraphs trick. And they fell for it again! That was the ex HMNZDT Manawanui. She was sold to the Maritime Park at Paeroa NZ for a dollar or so and then (in typical museum style) neglected her for 30 years by which time her engine was pronounced to be seized (I wonder why!) and then she started weeping oil from somewhere and the local bureaukrauts demanded that she be destroyed forthwith if she couldn't be moved under her own steam. So they panicked and the crane man gave his services in exchange for the engine which he hoisted out in one and had running within months back at his shop. Nothing wrong with it at all. Still gets run up for display on occasion.
> So now we have but one left in original running condition -the James O'Brien in Picton NZ.[/QUOTE
> 
> That has brought my memories into line, yes it was the diving tender tug . Which one had the Fairbanks -Morse engine? , it was always referred to as the Douglas Fairbanks engine.
> Great time , great memories in the ICE shop what With Lieutenant Wilkie and his fishery protection patrol coming home Friday after a few days in the gulf with confiscated undersized crayfish selling cheap to the boys .


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## russellward

The three I knew -Manawanui, Arataki and Kawateri (who became James O'Brien) all had Atlas Imperials but we did build 20 or so of them and a Fairbanks may have slipped in somewhere.


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## spongebob

russellward said:


> The three I knew -Manawanui, Arataki and Kawateri (who became James O'Brien) all had Atlas Imperials but we did build 20 or so of them and a Fairbanks may have slipped in somewhere.


Correct, I have found my old list, 


The Fairbanks Morse was aboard the old liberty boat
The Officers motor boat had a Gardner
The Commodores Barge had a Ford Mercury V8 conversion.
The Fairmile's and 72 ft HDMLs had Gray Marine diesels that replaced the Atlas engines and when I left there was talk of replacing the Grays with Fodens to standardise with British Admiralty.


Bob


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## CaptainKiwiSteve

*T I d tugs*

Greetings Cpt Steve Buttling here now living in the USA 
I worked 5 years on HMNZ Dockyard tug Arataki with then skipper Don Moore Engineer Bert Williamson Peter Robinson Vince Harding and Tony Steele .Aratakis i d YTL 627 
Manawanui was then the dive school platform with both powered by Atlas Imperials ( singles) A very lively ride in a head sea and a roller in beam seas !! Had some great times aboard her with a great crew


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## loco

I've just visited and been aboard the BRENT in Maldon. No charge, donations gratefully accepted. They are currently trying to raise money to replace the boiler tubes.

The TID 172 alongside her has had quite a lot of hull plating replaced. some of it a bit crudely. I understood from the volunteers on the BRENT that the TID 172 is being moved to a new owner on the Medway; but there is currently a problem in arranging the necessary paperwork for the tow.

Martyn


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## BillH

Received my advance copy this morning and happy with the end result. The publisher has advised me as below. Will post further details as I receive them

T.I.D Tugs of WW2
The publisher (World Ship Society Ltd) has advised the following

"As to pricing & availability it will be £10 (WSS members) / £15 (non-members) plus postage, but will not be available until stock arrives at our Chatham storage facility (circa 6th November). and a dispatcher in place to deal with orders"


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## BillH

T.I.D Tugs of WW2
Today, I received this e-mail from a friend in Belgium

Good afternoon Bill,
Earlier, the doorbell rang and the postman handed me over the book about the T.I.D. Tugs you wrote.

I am flabbergasted for the details you were able to find. You have delivered a very good book and it will be on my desk for the next couple of weeks to browse it throughly.

In the meantime I can already congratulate you on the splendid work done about the T.I.D. tugs. From every page the thorough research can be read.. It can definitely be said that this book is a real "must".


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## alaric

How can I buy a copy of the book?
I can find no information on the WSS website


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## BillH

Publishers advert - minus the front cover image

LATEST BOOK FROM THE WORLD SHIP SOCIETY
THE T.I.D. TUGS OF WORLD WAR TWO

There were several British standard tug designs constructed during the war years, ranging from the large deep-sea Assurance and Bustler classes and the 164 vessels forming the thirteen classes with EMPIRE and ROCK prefixed names. The numerically largest class of 182 steam-powered vessels known as the T.I.D.s (or TIDs) was the smallest in actual vessel size. The need had been identified in 1942 for a small versatile tug easily adaptable to a variety of tasks which could be built using mass production procedures without clogging up slipways of yards better suited to the construction of larger vessels. The chosen shipbuilder was Richard Dunston Ltd and a tug was designed which would be of all-welded construction with no bent frames and twisted plates. Standardised boilers and engines, built by numerous different companies, were installed after launching which occurred within seven days of receipt of the prefabricated units. Once completed the T.I.D.s were employed on naval and army duties as well as commercial work under civilian control. Initially they operated from various U.K. ports, participated in the D-Day landings and were soon to be found in Ostende, Rouen and Gibraltar. By 1945 many T.I.D.s were being prepared for shipment to the Far East where they would replace vessels lost during the Japanese invasions. With the cessation of hostilities many T.I.D.s were sold for demolition, some remained in Admiralty service while others found worldwide employment. This A4 size, softback book contains the meticulously researched career histories of all 182 T.I.D.s. Sixteen of them are known to still be in existence although the final fates of a further 40 are unclear despite the author’s exhaustive research into the subject. The book is illustrated by 112 black & white, 38 colour photographs and nine drawings.

Available from WSS Book Sales, 49 Mount Road, Mitcham, Surrey, CR4 3EZ, United Kingdom or by Email from [email protected], price £10 to members (quoting membership number) or £15 to non-members plus P & P £2.33 (UK), £5.50 (Europe) & £5.45 (RoW). Payment may be made by GBP cheque or credit card. For the latter please state whether Visa or Mastercard and quote card number, exact name on card, card expiry date, card validation number and address of cardholder.


Also https://coastalshipping.co.uk/home/2113-the-tid-tugs-of-world-war-two.html


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## bonnie lass

I have Somerton’s propellor in my garden. My cousin bought her for scrap when she was cut up in Howth


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## loco

I'm trying to renovate a 1;144 scale model of a TID, from a kit.

Three things that I cannot make out from photos, on this website or via Google, are;

1) What lifesaving and firefighting appliances were there? I can only make out a single lifebuoy either side of the bridge on some photos, and no 'FIRE' box for a hose anywhere. Did they carry a small boat somewhere?

2) Did they have any sort of winches/windlass fore and aft? I can only make out a small cross-shaped bitt forward, plus a small hand windlass, based on a couple of photos and a visit to BRENT.

3) Did they carry an anchor? Again, I can find no photographic evidence for this-except BRENT has one hanging off on the stbd bow.

Could any of you inform me of answers to these questions, please?

Many thanks.

Martyn


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## BillH

Suggest you obtain a copy of 
THE T.I.D. TUGS OF WORLD WAR TWO by W. J. Harvey 2019 World Ship Society

WSS Book Sales, 49 Mount Road, Mitcham, Surrey, CR4 3EZ, United Kingdom or by Email from [email protected], price £10 to members (quoting membership number) or £15 to non-members plus P & P £2.33 (UK), £5.50 (Europe) & £5.45 (RoW). Payment may be made by GBP cheque or credit card. For the latter please state whether Visa or Mastercard and quote card number, exact name on card, card expiry date, card validation number and address of cardholder.


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## Tassie48

After TID53 Later Teal information please she worked Gisborne port in the 1960s tassie48


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## BarryGibson

loco said:


> I'm trying to renovate a 1;144 scale model of a TID, from a kit.
> 
> Three things that I cannot make out from photos, on this website or via Google, are;
> 
> 1) What lifesaving and firefighting appliances were there? I can only make out a single lifebuoy either side of the bridge on some photos, and no 'FIRE' box for a hose anywhere. Did they carry a small boat somewhere?
> 
> 2) Did they have any sort of winches/windlass fore and aft? I can only make out a small cross-shaped bitt forward, plus a small hand windlass, based on a couple of photos and a visit to BRENT.
> 
> 3) Did they carry an anchor? Again, I can find no photographic evidence for this-except BRENT has one hanging off on the stbd bow.
> 
> Could any of you inform me of answers to these questions, please?
> 
> Many thanks.
> 
> Martyn


Have you seen this website about the building of a model TID tug? There's also a book that can be downloaded with more details on building the model.








TID 164 - Naval Tug - TiNY's Modelling Site


This is a site showing Tiny's Model Boat and Train building skills.




sites.google.com


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## loco

BarryGibson said:


> Have you seen this website about the building of a model TID tug? There's also a book that can be downloaded with more details on building the model.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TID 164 - Naval Tug - TiNY's Modelling Site
> 
> 
> This is a site showing Tiny's Model Boat and Train building skills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sites.google.com


Thanks for the link.

An excellent model, very impressive, especially as it is a real 'steamer'.

Unfortunately, the link to the build website seems no longer valid.

I'll take photos next time I go to Maldon for a visit.

Martyn


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## BillH

Tassie48 said:


> After TID53 Later Teal information please she worked Gisborne port in the 1960s tassie48


T.I.D. 53 c/s MJQZ 
O.N. 169349. 54g. 0n. 65.0 x 17.0 x 7.4 feet. 
C.2-cyl. (12½” and 26” x 18”) by the North Eastern Marine Engineering Company (1938) Ltd., Sunderland. Boiler by Davey, Paxman and Co. Ltd., Colchester. Coal fuel. 260 IHP. 8½ knots.
Post 1950: Unspecified type Paxman diesel.

16.11.1943: (Ministry Job No. A/MS/829) launched by Richard Dunston Ltd., Thorne (Yard No. 462) for the Ministry of War Transport, London, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
04.01.1944: Registered at Hull, vessel No.2 of 1944. 
06.01.1944: Completed. Allocated to War Department duties.
26.09.1945: Returned to the control of the Ministry of War Transport.
27.09.1945: Place in lay-up.
20.03.1946: Owners restyled as the Ministry of Transport, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
xx.09.1946: Sold to the Westminster Dredging Co. Ltd., London.
29.11.1946: Hull registry closed, consequent of re-registry in London
03.01.1947: Renamed W.D. TEAL. 
14.08.1950: Stranded on a sandbank on the River Dee and sank
11.09.1950: Salvaged and towed to Mostyn and later to Bromborough Dock, subsequently repaired, re-engined.
1965: Operated by the Westminster Dredging Australia Pty Ltd., on contract at Gisborne Harbour, New Zealand.
1969: Transferred to Singapore for dredging work.
1971: Sold to Transworld Marine Ltd., Singapore and renamed TEAL. 
1971: British Mercantile Registry closed, consequent of sale to Singapore.
9.1972: Seen operating off Katong. 
1974: Lying derelict, aft end submerged, at owner’s yard at Jalan Samulun, Jurong Town, Singapore. 
Final fate unknown.


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