# Sailing into the wind?



## Jim the Sawyer

During my greenhorn study-up on sailing, I am trying to get a better picture of what sailng craft do (or did) when trying to sail against the wind. I have read a little bit about it, but am still having a little trouble understanding.

I've read that the fore-and-aft sails allow a better angle of progress than the full-rigged sails do, but the full-rigged sails are better for speed and efficiency in favorable winds. It is easy for me to see that would be the case, unless the spars of full-riggers were able to rotate around the mast.

I also understand (I think) the concept of apparent wind. So one thing I am curious to know, is what angle different rigged ships could make, going into the wind.

For my example, let's suppose we have four vessels. A full-rigged ship, a barque, a barquentine, and a schooner. In this example, let's suppose that all four of them have essentially the same hull, and it is a medium size hull (maybe between 100 and 150 ft. long) and the four hulls are pretty much identical in length, beam, shape, proportions, weight, etc. All four vessels each have three masts, and are as identical as possible except for the rigging. They each have a fully competent crew and no extenuating cir***stances.

So. Let's suppose the wind is blowing steadily from due north at a moderate rate. 10 knots? And let's suppose that all four vessels are in the same place, and all are attempting to sail due north. No ocean current to consider.

At approximately what angle to the apparent wind can each of the four vessels tack? Does it make a difference the intensity or consistency of the wind? I am assuming that of the four, the schooner will be able to go closer to the wind than the rest.

If some of the vessels are not able to sail as close as 90 degrees to the wind, are they just out of luck until the wind changes? Do they follow the wind sideways (crosswise to their intended path) until they find favorable winds? Do they get blown backward, away from their intended course?

Yes, I am very new to all this. (Whaaa)


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## TOM ALEXANDER

Just a generality - yes your schooner would probably be able to sail closer to the wind than the others. The apparent wind has very little to do with sailing close to the wind as far as angle is concerned as it is a product of hull speed. (Given similar hulls there would probably be little difference.) Sail shape is the most important thing and square sails are difficult to present a straight luff when hauled.(Rotated to present a favourable angle to the wind.) As far as true wind is concerned a shooner would probably be able to sail at an angle of 45 degrees to the true wind, whereas the full rigged ship would at best sail about 68 degrees to the wind. The ship would be further hampered by the extra leeway she would make by presenting more hull area to the wind. The barque would be the next up the scale, and then the barquentine, which I would presume wold normally strike the square sails on the foremast and basically turn herself into a schooner. Regarding the leeway aspect though, the course made good would not be as high as the angles I have quoted. With some (a lot?) of vessels it is more productive to bear off a little to increase hull speed and make better progress to windward. Running before the wind a square rigger with stun'sls would do better.


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## Jim the Sawyer

Ok, that makes sense. So if the schooner could do 45 degrees, it might do better to make 50 degrees instead. The ship would have to do about 75 degrees, which means it would take a long time for it to make much progress.

Then I am wondering about sail area and the types of sails needed. I guess that depends mainly on the intensity and direction of the wind. I see some pictures of craft underway with only small bits of sail set here and there, and some with about half of it set, and then of course you see full sail. The danger I guess is that if you have too much sail set in a strong wind, things start to break. (Cloud)


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## stan mayes

Hello Jim,
Many years since I served in sailing barges at age 15 - 1936 to June 1941 but I remember it as a hard life and I learned a lot..Three times wrecked on the East Coast..
With a fair wind it was easy but with an adverse wind and tacking we kept the bob (house flag at top of the topmast) in line with the headstick of the topsail.
As they were shallow draught and flat bottomed we used leeboards when tacking.
Regards,
Stan


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## Jim the Sawyer

Wow, Stan, my hat's off to you! Not too many of the professional rigging sailors left with us these days. I wish I could meet you and learn a lot of the things you remember.

I just don't think there is that level of seasoned veterans of the sail at work today-- oh there may be some, but now-adays, sail is no longer the regular way of life for commerce, that it once was. I guess most people who sail with the wind do it only because they want to, not because it's a normal career choice.


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## TOM ALEXANDER

Jim the Sawyer said:


> Ok, that makes sense. So if the schooner could do 45 degrees, it might do better to make 50 degrees instead. The ship would have to do about 75 degrees, which means it would take a long time for it to make much progress.
> 
> Then I am wondering about sail area and the types of sails needed. I guess that depends mainly on the intensity and direction of the wind. I see some pictures of craft underway with only small bits of sail set here and there, and some with about half of it set, and then of course you see full sail. The danger I guess is that if you have too much sail set in a strong wind, things start to break. (Cloud)


Not only break, but when over pressed any sailing vessel, if caught with a sudden gust (especially when caught in a katabatic wind) from a different direction can be set on her beam ends (if something doesn't break first!) That is why prudent sailors will reduce sail overnight when such winds cannot be seen approaching, but when they do it is often with unexpected direction and ferocity. (Cloud)


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## Jim the Sawyer

There's a term I am new to. Beam ends? I know that beam means the side of the ship, or a direction to the side of the ship, perpendicular to the vessel. But what are beam ends?


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## Westsail

*Beam ends*



Jim the Sawyer said:


> There's a term I am new to. Beam ends? I know that beam means the side of the ship, or a direction to the side of the ship, perpendicular to the vessel. But what are beam ends?


Hi

I'm a pleasure sailor and am in awe of those who are vets of working under sail. Being on your beam ends means being knocked down on your side by that strong wind. Prudent mariners reef early.

Best

Bill. (Thumb)


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## NoR

The schooner might point four points to the wind but she wouldn't make that good.


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## oldseamerchant

stan mayes said:


> Hello Jim,
> k*kept the bob (house flag at top of the topmast) in line with the headstick of the topsail.*
> 
> Stan


I like that. Similar reasoning in 'Arklow the Last Days of Sail'


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## Barrie Youde

#7

My own understanding of the expression is that it refers to the beams which run athwart (i.e. across) any ship at right angles to her keel (or midship line) as an integral part of her construction. Thus, when a ship heels over at an angle of 90 degrees ( or anywhere approaching it, and for any reason) she can quite properly be described as being "on her beam ends".


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## Jim the Sawyer

Barrie Youde said:


> #7
> 
> My own understanding of the expression is that it refers to the beams which run athwart (i.e. across) any ship at right angles to her keel (or midship line) as an integral part of her construction. Thus, when a ship heels over at an angle of 90 degrees ( or anywhere approaching it, and for any reason) she can quite properly be described as being "on her beam ends".



Ok, that makes sense. I never would have come up with it myself, but it makes sense.


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## John Briggs

Jim the Sawyer said:


> Ok, that makes sense. I never would have come up with it myself, but it makes sense.


Not only makes sense but it is correct!


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## Davie M

I am also a leisure sailor,
A fore and aft rig would be more efficent going to windward and was I believe, a developement that came from the middle east. The modern fore and aft rig works on the slot system and can be likened to an aircraft wing and is more efficent going to windward and kept as near vertical to the surface of the water,ie, the vessel is upright.
I own a small yacht and use Stan Mayes system with the flag on the mainsail headboard,it works every time.
What Stan omitted to mention was these barges were often sailed by a man and a boy, and still are, although now for pleasure. It was a very hard way of earning a living.
As the yacht heels the sails become less efficient,however,on modern yachts a lot depends on the cut of the sails.Depending on what the yacht is built for,racing or cruising will dictate how the sails are cut during manufacture, some are cut flat, some are cut radially creating the upper surface of a wing when set. Some have the shape created by the crew depending on the weather conditions.
Going downwind my yacht sails faster with the wind on the quarter than dead astern. The thing that has always held a facination for me about sailing is that
you can read volumes on how to sail a boat but until you actually try it. You then begin to understand, in a very small way, why it took so long for sailing vessels to get from A to B and would where possible anchor and wait for a fair wind and tide.
All because they wanted to sail into the wind, no wonder steam became popular.
I hope this is not too far away from your original question
Davie
.


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## Jim the Sawyer

That's helpful, Davie! I don't know that I will ever actively participate on a sailing vessel, but if I ever get to take passage on one, I will probably overwhelm the crew with questions!
(==D)


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## NoR

*Apparent wind.*

Because the vessel's motion generates a wind component, the apparent wind at the sail is not the same as the ambient wind. Really fast boats 'tack' down wind because the motion of the boat means that the wind is no longer astern.
I wonder how this effect payed out in square riggers, they could shift down wind.


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## stan mayes

Davie M said:


> I am also a leisure sailor,
> A fore and aft rig would be more efficent going to windward and was I believe, a developement that came from the middle east. The modern fore and aft rig works on the slot system and can be likened to an aircraft wing and is more efficent going to windward and kept as near vertical to the surface of the water,ie, the vessel is upright.
> I own a small yacht and use Stan Mayes system with the flag on the mainsail headboard,it works every time.
> What Stan omitted to mention was these barges were often sailed by a man and a boy, and still are, although now for pleasure. It was a very hard way of earning a living.
> As the yacht heels the sails become less efficient,however,on modern yachts a lot depends on the cut of the sails.Depending on what the yacht is built for,racing or cruising will dictate how the sails are cut during manufacture, some are cut flat, some are cut radially creating the upper surface of a wing when set. Some have the shape created by the crew depending on the weather conditions.
> Going downwind my yacht sails faster with the wind on the quarter than dead astern. The thing that has always held a facination for me about sailing is that
> you can read volumes on how to sail a boat but until you actually try it. You then begin to understand, in a very small way, why it took so long for sailing vessels to get from A to B and would where possible anchor and wait for a fair wind and tide.
> All because they wanted to sail into the wind, no wonder steam became popular.
> I hope this is not too far away from your original question
> Davie
> .


Yes Davie they were two handed and very hard work.
I was mate in a 300 tonner Celtic for over two years with Bill West of Frinsbury as skipper..He would not have a Third Hand although there were double bunks in the foc'sle.
During my time in them we were wrecked three times in gales on the coast..Each time we were rescued by RNLI lifeboats after sending up distress flares...We were paid by the freight so the quicker we delivered we got our money quicker!!
Young skippers pushed and punished the barges in any weather..
Older skippers ran for shelter when a blow was imminent.
Regards,
Stan


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## Davie M

NoR said:


> Because the vessel's motion generates a wind component, the apparent wind at the sail is not the same as the ambient wind. Really fast boats 'tack' down wind because the motion of the boat means that the wind is no longer astern.
> I wonder how this effect payed out in square riggers, they could shift down wind.


Could it be that it might have something to do with the size and position of the sails on each mast, not all spars are at the same height on all masts. I am looking at a painting of Cutty Sark as I type this,it seems reasonable to assume that the "slot" between the sails works horizontally downwind and with the different sail size allows the wind to flow thro from aft to for'd, zigzaging up and down as it travels.


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## Jim the Sawyer

It also confuses me a bit as to how the wind flows in, around, through, over, and into the individual sails in the overall rigging plan. Obviously some of the sails overlap each other. If you simply had one mast, and square rigged sails on it, there would be no overlaps, and slight gaps between all the sails. But some of the ships seemed to have the sails set up such that the wind, coming ostensibly from the rear of the ship, would hit the sails on the mizzenmast and that would block the full force of the wind from hitting the sails on the mainmast, and the more masts you have, the more overlap there is, such that the sails further forward are getting less direct wind than the ones aft. I guess, as you say, the point is, that vessels rarely sail with the wind directly astern.

Maybe that is why fast vessels can make better speed tacked away from the wind a bit, rather than directly downwind, because more sail area takes direct wind gusts, rather than broken-down leftovers spoiled by other sails. Just my wild guess.


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## charles henry

Relative to the types of sails available. My experience during the period where I was an ardent sailor formulated the following rule.

No matter what kind of sail you buy it is NEVER the one you need.

This is an addendum to the statement that, "A boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money


Chas


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## TOM ALEXANDER

charles henry said:


> Relative to the types of sails available. My experience during the period where I was an ardent sailor formulated the following rule.
> 
> No matter what kind of sail you buy it is NEVER the one you need.
> 
> This is an addendum to the statement that, "A boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money
> 
> 
> Chas


BOAT -- Bring Out Another Thousand! (Jester)


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## Jim the Sawyer

charles henry said:


> Relative to the types of sails available. My experience during the period where I was an ardent sailor formulated the following rule.
> 
> No matter what kind of sail you buy it is NEVER the one you need.
> 
> This is an addendum to the statement that, "A boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money
> 
> 
> Chas


These sound like some of Murphy's Nautical Laws.

he has some land-based ones, too, like:
If you keep something for 20 years, thinking you'll need it, and never use it, and throw it away, you'll need it a week after throwing it away.

And:
If you stop at the red light and you put the transmission in neutral and let the clutch out, the light will turn green immediately. But if you keep it in gear with your foot on the clutch, it will take five minutes to change.

I'm sure some of the nautical ones would be things like: The anchor only grabs hold of the bottom when you are trying to pull it up. If you want it to anchor you, it drifts.
(Jester)(K):sweatFrogger)


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