# T45 Destroyer Engine Problems (merged threads) - This won't be a cheap fix!



## willincity

Type 45 destroyers: UK's £1bn warships face engine refit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35432341


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## Kaiser Bill

19 Frigates and Destroyers.......God save the Queen and all who sail in her. Amen. (Smoke)


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## slick

All,
Not all together unexpected - the way of these things, I am sure it will be fixed.

Yours aye,

slick


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## NoR

*Royal Navy’s £1bn destroyers need new engines after breakdowns .*

Royal Navy’s £1bn destroyers need new engines after breakdowns

The work will begin in 2019 but will be staggered over several years
The Royal Navy’s most modern warships are to be fitted with new engines because of repeated breakdowns.
Six Type 45 destroyers are to undergo major refits amid concerns over their reliability, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has confirmed.
The work will begin in 2019 but will be staggered over several years so that some vessels will be available for operational commitments at all times. The move follows reports of persistent problems with the engines and power systems on the destroyers, which cost £1 billion each.
In 2014 HMS Dauntless was forced to abandon a training exercise, while in 2009 HMS Daring lost power in the Atlantic on her first voyage to the US. She suffered more propulsion problems off Kuwait three years later.
“Total electrical failures are common,” according to an unnamed Royal Navy officer in an email seen by the BBC.
In a statement, the MoD told the BBC that to “address some reliability issues” it was considering options to “upgrade the ships’ diesel generators to add greater resilience to the power and the propulsion system”.

The rest of this article is hidden behind the Times Pay Wall.


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## NoR

The mistake is to go too hi-tech. The sea is not the place to do this. Tried and tested is what's required. A few shipowners have made this mistake as well.


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## Varley

Astonishing. One always expects the forces to have an 'ample sufficiency' (or, perhaps, 'ampereal sufficiency' in the current case). One economy Denholm did not make on their own vessels was generator capacity (when this was learned I know not, perhaps from managing vessels for clients with less foresight). Builder's power balance often makes uncomfortable reading to a practical operator who appreciates theoretical performance - mainly of the prime movers - may not be achieved in practice, or at least not for extended periods. Better corrected at the outline specification stage and more astonishing that the problem seems to have emerged after trials.

We wouldn't expect to know if the military load has grown since planning or even post delivery. Why load shedding does not protect essential loads is another matter, not that we want battles lost due to a preference trip either. The more complicated is the electrical scheme and its protection the more likely it is for some initially unseen failure mode to cause a blackout but I cannot envisage one where the solution would be more off line reserve.

Interesting (to me anyway) was that one redundancy improving modification to Blackgold Aquamarine would have introduced a failure mode where an overload in terms only of reactive power would occur. The solution we chose was to trip redundant propulsors and load up the remaining units to restore a 'normal' power factor. A plant with a preponderance of asynchronous rotating loads may experience such a problem if they are not run at MCR. Continuous running at MCR for plumbing possibly uncomfortable. Not so for electrikery, 100% good (100 plus a little bit not so good).


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## expats

*Type 45 problems...*

dispute.press/news/543494


The MoD doesn't record "Total Power Failures"?????????????


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## NoR

We went through a period on the old Cape York when we had a few total power failures so much so that we had the two black balls/ red lights ready to to be hoisted. It was a bit startling when it occurred, particularly at night. Everything sort of stopped, there was an eerie silence then lots of shouts and yells from the ER skylight..Probably a lot more exiting on a warship.

I'm trying to recall what happened with the gyro. I think we had to put a wheelman on and use the steering compass until the gyro was fully spooled up again.


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## expats

NoR said:


> We went through a period on the old Cape York when we had a few total power failures so much so that we had the two black balls/ red lights ready to to be hoisted. It was a bit startling when it occurred, particularly at night. Everything sort of stopped, there was an eerie silence then lots of shouts and yells from the ER skylight..Probably a lot more exiting on a warship.
> 
> I'm trying to recall what happened with the gyro. I think we had to put a wheelman on and use the steering compass until the gyro was fully spooled up again.


*Probably a lot more exiting on a warship.* Love the understatement(Thumb)


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## Steve Hogg

*Type 45 problems*

Should this report really surprise us,no doubt some numbskull in the MOD is responsible for authorizing the purchase of said equipment,similarly the continuing farce over the two aircraft carriers where these so called experts cant even come to a decision over what aircraft will be deployed on them.Again seemingly "buy cheap buy twice"comes to mind ,or maybe the brown envelopes werent big enough! Hope the politicians have asked our enemies(whoever they are)to give us time to complete all necessary repairs and building before they attack us.[=P]


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## Enri

On the ferries to Zeebrugge, we used to have frequent black outs, normally when coming off the shaft alternators to go back on the generators. All the basic equipment was on the UPS system, basically batteries.


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## peterfgf

I've been trying to find some hard news about this all morning. The FT seems to have the only news that appears likely:

http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/01/29...-combat-ship-engine-to-cost-tens-of-millions/


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## Ron Stringer

Heard a former senior military man say on the BBC 'Today' programme that perhaps, in an attempt to recover lost ground, too much money and attention had been spent on the UK Air Defence project, to the deficit of the planning and development of the Type 45.

Another example of Whitehall short-termism and panic response?


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## Boatman25

What a surprise !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## twogrumpy

A BAE spokesperson: She added the Type 45s were one of the world’s ‘most capable air defence destroyers’.

So that's fine then, should anyone want to attack South Railway Jetty.


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## Dartskipper

Is this another case, on a more dramatic scale, of the MOD Procurement department cutting costs and making savings in the wrong places? We have all heard about Army equipment like radios not working in the field, and boots falling apart after a few miles of marching. Wasn't there also a problem with the new rifle when it was introduced?
The Navy, and Air Force, always seem to try and put too much gear and new technology into new equipment, and end up creating a technological nightmare. I met an ex RN rating who told me that when he first joined HMS Tiger, there was so much electrical equipment and machinery everywhere, he thought the designers had forgotten about space for the crew!

Roy.


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## Farmer John

I suspect the first war our defences are involved in are the ones between the various arms of the forces.


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## Varley

NoR said:


> The mistake is to go too hi-tech. The sea is not the place to do this. Tried and tested is what's required. A few shipowners have made this mistake as well.


I suspect that too but I would challenge your phrase "hi-tech". I suspect you mean overcomplicated and/or understood only by those unable yet to shave. There is elegant sophistication in simplicity which some technocrats still appreciate. On a similar tack electronics is cheap (perhaps not the Samson bit) and so we see discrete makers' controls becoming more outsourced and only programmed in-house as well as true integrated automation systems where the makers have to give up their operating philosophy to a contractor (like Norcontrol, I mean to imply no particular criticism)whose kit interfaces directly with the plumbing (distinctly different from simply pressing the buttons on the makers controls remotely/or automatically).


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## NoR

Varley said:


> I suspect that too but I would challenge your phrase "hi-tech". I suspect you mean overcomplicated and/or understood only by those unable yet to shave. There is elegant sophistication in simplicity which some technocrats still appreciate. On a similar tack electronics is cheap (perhaps not the Samson bit) and so we see discrete makers' controls becoming more outsourced and only programmed in-house as well as true integrated automation systems where the makers have to give up their operating philosophy to a contractor (like Norcontrol, I mean to imply no particular criticism)whose kit interfaces directly with the plumbing (distinctly different from simply pressing the buttons on the makers controls remotely/or automatically).



I think we all know what I meant by Hi-Tech. Your reply is a classic example of how to complicate a simple concept.

We're not all intellectuals.


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## LouisB

*Type 45 Destroyers Machinary Failure.*

Seemingly the entire commissioned Daring class destroyers are all suffering from a design fault that affects the electrical supply system.
The ships are fitted with two gas turbine alternators and two Wärtsilä diesels. Primary main propulsion is via induction motors running at around 4kv. Hotel services and weapon systems are supplied with various voltages and frequencies transformed down from the H.V. supplies.

Virtually all control of load requirements for both propulsion and weapons/hotel demand is fully computerised  for optimum balance in all conditions. Judging by reports in various defence blogs there is a phased program to install larger diesel(s). This will happen as the ships become available and will involve a hole to be cut into the diesel flat to install larger/different units. The ships have experienced lighting and hotel services electrical failure on exercise - according to what you read, the weapons systems also suffered partial failure as well. There are quite a few rumours from different sources that a problem existed and was known several years ago??


LouisB. (Scribe)


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## Ron Stringer

LouisB said:


> There are quite a few rumours from different sources that a problem existed and was known several years ago??
> 
> LouisB. (Scribe)


Well the first of the class (HMS Daring) was commissioned in 2009 and the last in 2014, so there has been plenty of time for design faults to be detected. Someone has been keeping the wraps on things but a recent complaint from a serving member of the RN seems to have brought things into the (relative) open. Frequent blackouts are not really what you would expect to get when spending £1.5 Billion.


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## jmcg

I have heard (BBC) that the intention/solution is to fit a third generator to augment the existing two. Going to open her sides up to fit.

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## Union Jack

*I suspect the first war our defences are involved in are the ones between the various arms of the forces.* - Farmer John

Sadly too often the case.

*I have heard (BBC) that the intention/solution is to fit a third generator to augment the existing two. Going to open her sides up to fit*. - Jmcg

Technically, and space permitting, this is actually no big deal, particularly compared with cutting into the very specialised hulls of nuclear submarines during refit. Financially, it's another matter.

Jack


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## LouisB

Union Jack said:


> *I suspect the first war our defences are involved in are the ones between the various arms of the forces.* - Farmer John
> 
> Sadly too often the case.
> 
> *I have heard (BBC) that the intention/solution is to fit a third generator to augment the existing two. Going to open her sides up to fit*. - Jmcg
> 
> Technically, and space permitting, this is actually no big deal, particularly compared with cutting into the very specialised hulls of nuclear submarines during refit. Financially, it's another matter.
> 
> Jack


When all is said and done re alterations/additions/cost etc of work that will have to be carried out to bring the class up to the standard expected, there remains many questions to be answered. The main one I imagine is how can it be that the designed electrical requirements of the vessel were so out of line with the generating capacity as fitted? My very limited knowledge of MoD naval architects/ designers when it was done by DG (Ships) in Bath was that this sort of cock up was to be avoided at all costs - usually done by designing a large redundancy into electrical systems. Maybe too many fingers in the pie with modern warship design and build these days??

LouisB. (Scribe)


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## Varley

NoR said:


> I think we all know what I meant by Hi-Tech. Your reply is a classic example of how to complicate a simple concept.
> 
> We're not all intellectuals.


I like to think that I champion simplicity in things electrical. It seems (again) that I fail to express that well.


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## howardws

Where on earth will it be possible to fit another generator - presumably a pretty big one - in a warship? It's not as if they have lots of void spaces that can be utilised. I would imagine that space will have to be made by rearranging the entire engine room.


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## peterfgf

Varley said:


> I like to think that I champion simplicity in things electrical. It seems (again) that I fail to express that well.


It is a complicated issue and I think Varley has a valid opinion. Sourcing components from different contractors leads to blurred responsibilities in the event of problems ("not our problem Guv"). Mixing Diesel alternators and gas-turbine alternators, with different dynamic characteristics, and the transients arising from the power electronics required for the main propulsion motors was never going to be easy. If, on top of that, you have inadequate power margin to cope with surges and spikes, then something is going to give. I would have thought that there would be a facility to shed consumers automatically, but there may be little or no discrimination on a warship. This may then point to some sort of problem with the electrical system dynamic characteristics. 

There is unlikely to be enough space to fit another engine, especially low down in the ship where it will not upset the stability too much. It may however be possible to shoe-horn in Wärtsilä 16V200 Diesels to replace the present Wärtsilä 12V200 engines.

Peterfgf


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## Dartskipper

I expect they will end up bolting a container with a mains generator in it on the foredeck, cunningly disguising it as another battery of surface to air missiles.

Roy.


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## A.D.FROST

Remember the QE2(Ouch)Just as well they don't fly


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## Engine Serang

Ah Varley, you'll never make it to admiral if you insist on sticking to old fashioned ideas such as simplicity, reliability, tried and tested. To be promoted in a 21st Century navy you must find a bandwagon to jump on. It helps if you have in your Pussers Grip an admirals hat with two rows of scrambled egg and a half dozen nice management speak phrases. 
When the T 45 was in the embryonic stage we spoke of little else other than:

The All Electric Ship
Integrated Electric Propulsion
IEP, (see above)
The Tyranny of the Shaftline
We must reduce the Noise of the Gearbox
Enhanced ASW Capability.

If you fail to make Admiral there may be the consolation of a lucrative consultancy with a supplier or other supporter of this most exciting and forward looking technological advance.

I have no doubt that, at this moment, the best engineering brains in UK are now in a huddle busily constructing Ass-Covering stories for release to a gullible and lazy press.
Will heads roll? I believe there is a Petty Officer or a Junior Officer somewhere being lined up to take the rap and the Chaps will live to fight another day. Don't forget its only taxpayers money. Defence of the Realm etc, blah, blah, blah.


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## Dartskipper

When the RN took over the Lake Class cutters from the United States Coastguard on Lend Lease during WWII, a Lt Commander from the Engineering branch was given a crash course of instruction on the Turbo Electric machinery they were all equipped with. This gentleman, Russell Linsell, then had to pass his new knowledge on rather quickly to all the engineers on the other cutters, so that they could sail home. Later on, he was asked to write an instruction manual for distribution to the engineers who would be looking after all the other American built vessels fitted with similar installations.

Surely, somebody in the Admiralty must know that there is knowledge available about such methods of propulsion, or is it the case as Engine Serang says, of wonderfully whizzy efficient technology, with no margin for error or overload?

Looking at it as an outsider, it is typical of modern thinking....."That looks great, let's give it a go..."

Roy.


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## Varley

But that IS my band wagon! (or one of them anyway). I was trying to explain my understanding of complication and integration not recommending either - like explaining to a cadet what may be had in Bugis Street whilst recommending abstinence. There are, alas, none so blind as those that will not see!

For all sorts of good and foreseeable reasons it is however, more usual for the problems to mount with age and not emerge in early life as a chronic ailment.


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## Varley

Dartskipper said:


> When the RN took over the Lake Class cutters from the United States Coastguard on Lend Lease during WWII, a Lt Commander from the Engineering branch was given a crash course of instruction on the Turbo Electric machinery they were all equipped with. This gentleman, Russell Linsell, then had to pass his new knowledge on rather quickly to all the engineers on the other cutters, so that they could sail home. Later on, he was asked to write an instruction manual for distribution to the engineers who would be looking after all the other American built vessels fitted with similar installations.
> 
> Surely, somebody in the Admiralty must know that there is knowledge available about such methods of propulsion, or is it the case as Engine Serang says, of wonderfully whizzy efficient technology, with no margin for error or overload?
> 
> Looking at it as an outsider, it is typical of modern thinking....."That looks great, let's give it a go..."
> 
> Roy.


You have given me the opportunity to draw a red herring across this recent RN Machination by repeating one of Father's stories about another. When chatting with one of 'his' ERAs who had been on one of the lease lend 'Woodbines' at take over it emerged that the plant was so unsound that they could not keep up with the water consumption.

ERA "We were on Number nine Fresh Water tank by the time we made it across".

Father "How many tanks did you have".

ERA "Eight"


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## LouisB

Engine Serang said:


> Ah Varley, you'll never make it to admiral if you insist on sticking to old fashioned ideas such as simplicity, reliability, tried and tested. To be promoted in a 21st Century navy you must find a bandwagon to jump on. It helps if you have in your Pussers Grip an admirals hat with two rows of scrambled egg and a half dozen nice management speak phrases.
> When the T 45 was in the embryonic stage we spoke of little else other than:
> 
> The All Electric Ship
> Integrated Electric Propulsion
> IEP, (see above)
> The Tyranny of the Shaftline
> We must reduce the Noise of the Gearbox
> Enhanced ASW Capability.
> 
> If you fail to make Admiral there may be the consolation of a lucrative consultancy with a supplier or other supporter of this most exciting and forward looking technological advance.
> 
> I have no doubt that, at this moment, the best engineering brains in UK are now in a huddle busily constructing Ass-Covering stories for release to a gullible and lazy press.
> Will heads roll? I believe there is a Petty Officer or a Junior Officer somewhere being lined up to take the rap and the Chaps will live to fight another day. Don't forget its only taxpayers money. Defence of the Realm etc, blah, blah, blah.


I think that a previously used phrase by petergf "different dynamic characteristics" will play a large part in the final wash up of who or what to blame. As is the nature of this type of soul searching it is doubtful if all will be revealed. On a lighter note, until I actually obtained and used one, I always thought a Pussers Grip had different connotations similar to facial hair known as 'buggers grips'.


LouisB. (Scribe)


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## Basil

Bring back steam turbines and turbo alternators!
Quiet search on electric pods and full speed on geared turbine or electric motor.


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## Varley

Oh! Take me back to a T boat too Basil. Nonetheless electrical propulsion has a good record for reliability (and flexibility). The T2s would not have been jumboised if the plant had not been suitable for continued manageable use.


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## sternchallis

I was working for a US shipyard on some tankers for supplying jp5 to their bases.
The mcry set up was Sulzer RNDM with PTO, 3 Cat ( large dozer engines) for alternators that could start up automatically and go on the board without human intervention.
So we are at Full Ahd on heavy oil or even fss running on just the PTO with Hotel and ER load and the super said right, "Full Astern". He got some funny looks from the shipyard people who had no seagoing experience. 
As the engine slowed down the PTO tripped, blackout , a Cat started went on the board, the ME making all sorts of noises, stopped, started to change over camshaft to go astern, backfires through the TC's. She started, went Astern, no harm done and proved all the EM's claims.
But would the shipyard have put that on the sea trials list, probably not.
Which proves the point that you still need somebody with operational experience to prove designs and put a ship into scenarios that might happen.


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## Varley

LouisB said:


> I think that a previously used phrase by petergf "different dynamic characteristics" will play a large part in the final wash up of who or what to blame. As is the nature of this type of soul searching it is doubtful if all will be revealed. On a lighter note, until I actually obtained and used one, I always thought a Pussers Grip had different connotations similar to facial hair known as 'buggers grips'.
> 
> LouisB. (Scribe)



I hope you were not disappointed LouisB. I have known many alternators of different characteristics, both mechanical and electrical. The most common being that of T/A with D/A.

The only pain in this regard was five identical generators, the staring-out difference was that they were arranged to run isochronously in both speed and voltage (returning back to set point, very quickly and exactly, after a load change).

Subjectively I am happy only with a network with a comfortably sloppy droop. Isochronous to me just meant ABB attending in Peterhead every visit to tinker - Kongsberg (I am really not trying to pillory them) were uncomfortable putting their electric DP together with a switchboard running in droop (or claimed so on Simon Labrador's trials). It would be interesting to know how this class is specified. Anyone?


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## Dartskipper

#30. The points raised by Engine Serang are interesting, because in the article about these ships in today's DM, it reveals that in 2009, the Commons Defence Committee published a report on the Type 45. It says that MP's remarked that the "persistent over-optimism and underestimation of the technical challenges, combined with inappropriate commercial arrangements were leading to rising costs." Each vessel ended up costing close to £1 Billion.
An MOD spokesman stated; "In our defence review last year, we committed to improving the Type 45's power and propulsion system through a series of machinery upgrades during planned maintenance."

So that's all right then, it's good to know that the chaps have got their finger on the pulse, all is well, and there's nothing to get excited about.

Yeah, right......(Cloud)

Roy.


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## A.D.FROST

I always thought Electricity was magic, now watch how millions of pounds disappear proving it.(EEK)


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## LouisB

Dartskipper said:


> #30. The points raised by Engine Serang are interesting, because in the article about these ships in today's DM, it reveals that in 2009, the Commons Defence Committee published a report on the Type 45. It says that MP's remarked that the "persistent over-optimism and underestimation of the technical challenges, combined with inappropriate commercial arrangements were leading to rising costs." Each vessel ended up costing close to £1 Billion.
> An MOD spokesman stated; "In our defence review last year, we committed to improving the Type 45's power and propulsion system through a series of machinery upgrades during planned maintenance."
> 
> So that's all right then, it's good to know that the chaps have got their finger on the pulse, all is well, and there's nothing to get excited about.
> 
> Yeah, right......(Cloud)
> 
> Roy.


An extremely good point and relevant to the present discussion. On a personal level, I had not researched the T45 on a political/parliamentary basis. just what my own people who were involved have told me. The latter days of my involvement with naval ship construction was a wake up call regarding overall observance by MoD inspectors. Long time ago, but even then, they believed what the overall design stated!


LouisB. (Scribe)


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## Dartskipper

*If you can fix a bike...*

Then we can train you to fix a Type 45 Destroyer! (Jester)

Well, that's what a recruiting advert that has been running on the telly tonight is telling us. Nice to see that they are getting somebody to fix the cock up. (Thumb)

Roy.


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## Engine Serang

Of course someone will fix the problem but it will not be Monty Pythons Bicycle Repair Man or your average Batty Wallah, although they may have assisted in drawing up the contract spec. 
One wonders if these floating power stations are still under guarantee? Were they accepted as fit for purpose? If so, by whom?

It has to be taken for granted that Type 45's are not T2 tankers, whose simplicity impressed all who worked down below. When I left Texaco in the mid '70's they still had 5 T2's and every Engineer wanted his next ship to be one.

Electricity can be complicated stuff and Type 45's are top end examples of a quart of electricity squeezed into a pint pot. The prime movers generate at some kilo voltage and frequency, are we all still on board? I imagine its the consumers who are causing the problem, the diversity of voltages and frequencies needed must result in harmonics. Big systems like the CEGB and the National Grid had the infrastructure to deal with harmonics but in a warship the space for remedial equipment is limited. Even the Queen Mary 2 had problems with harmonic filters.

There are many SN'ers whose knowledge of dc and wavy dc humbles me, I would be in awe of their take on this problem. An additional prime mover indicates that the electrical growth margin has been exceeded,surely this is unlikely and can be accomodated by preferential trips on non-essential consumers. Did the system designers, not the bike mechanic, take any advice from Lecky who knows all about complicated stuff like reactive power, power factor, inductive and capacitive loads, 1st 3rd 5th etc harmonics which may have reduced the actual generation capacity to a virtual capacity.

The Ships Nostalgia Design Bureau could teach those boffins a thing or two.


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## Ron Stringer

Dartskipper said:


> Then we can train you to fix a Type 45 Destroyer! (Jester)
> 
> Well, that's what a recruiting advert that has been running on the telly tonight is telling us. Nice to see that they are getting somebody to fix the cock up. (Thumb)
> 
> Roy.


Bike repairers required by the RN.

Typical British Press cock-up; they always get things wrong when maritime matters are involved. There they go again, reporting electrical problems when all that is wrong is that the chain sometimes comes off when changing gear.

Those new recruits will soon have 'em fixed and back on the road again.


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## Duncan112

Genuine question, was the quality of vessels procured for the RN better when the RCNC was in charge?


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## fred henderson

For many years cruise ships have been built with all electric propulsion machinery, using a power-station that also provides electricity for all other ship services. There are usually five diesel driven alternators, three large and two smaller. This enables the power station output to be matched to the ship's electrical load requirement at all times. Some cruise ships also have a combination of gas turbine and diesel; the Queen Mary 2 with a top speed similar to a Type 45 for example. I do not know of any cruise ships that need to indulge in load shedding at any time. 

Until the Type 45's RN warships had dedicated propulsion machinery and separate power generation for all other services. Very short period load shedding is sometimes used in warship design, because of power requirement surges from weapon systems - when a gun mounting first starts to turn being one source. This is only for seconds and the galley is not usually still in operation during action stations!

About 20 years after cruise ship designers, the RN accepted that the power station system was far more efficient. They could have sought advice from the cruise ship world. Although non are built in the UK, all Carnival ships are designed in Britain. It seems however that usual MoD and BAE know best attitude has prevailed, with the usual outcome for the British Taxpayer.


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## LouisB

fred henderson said:


> For many years cruise ships have been built with all electric propulsion machinery, using a power-station that also provides electricity for all other ship services. There are usually five diesel driven alternators, three large and two smaller. This enables the power station output to be matched to the ship's electrical load requirement at all times. Some cruise ships also have a combination of gas turbine and diesel; the Queen Mary 2 with a top speed similar to a Type 45 for example. I do not know of any cruise ships that need to indulge in load shedding at any time.
> 
> Until the Type 45's RN warships had dedicated propulsion machinery and separate power generation for all other services. Very short period load shedding is sometimes used in warship design, because of power requirement surges from weapon systems - when a gun mounting first starts to turn being one source. This is only for seconds and the galley is not usually still in operation during action stations!
> 
> About 20 years after cruise ship designers, the RN accepted that the power station system was far more efficient. They could have sought advice from the cruise ship world. Although non are built in the UK, all Carnival ships are designed in Britain. It seems however that usual MoD and BAE know best attitude has prevailed, with the usual outcome for the British Taxpayer.


*A very quick paste from an MoD site*.

Two WR-21 advanced cycle gas turbines with alternators and two Wärtsilä 12v200 Diesel Generators providing 4,160 volts each.

The ship features an Integrated Electric Propulsion System, where high quality AC voltage and frequency is delivered to both the electric motors and used to power the ship at the same time.

The prime movers are two induction motors able to provide 20MW (27,000 hp) each driving variable pitch propellers

_*Original design electrical requirements would have been known, with any deviation, either added to or subtracted from. The possibly unknown factor for demand spikes could have been the overall computerised control systems programming. Any mistake's on maximum consumption whether in cruising or combat situations should be traceable from the final design drawings and spec's. We shall probably never know for certain.


*_LouisB. (Scribe)


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## Varley

If that is a direct cut 'n paste it can't be written by technical type.

Alternators providing x volts each. Whatever may be x, without power stated is uninformative - you could get the voltage with a transformer from a domestic light fitting.

"Each". Not much good if they were different. "High quality AC voltage AND frequency" - my, my clever folk or does MoD N have vessels with AC at no frequency (a blackout perhaps?).

"Two induction motors are the prime movers" - we seem to have an oozlum bird configuration here.

Written for a press release I guess.


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## Satanic Mechanic

im just not getting this one, it's a pretty straight forward configuration as far as I can see, with four gene's, two propulsion motors and the usual inverters. The reports all seem to say that they are suffering power failures - ie blackouts and the generators need replaced which does sort of imply that the problem is a lack of capacity. But it is extremely difficult to comment further on it as we don't know any details as to operation configuration, i will however put my head above the parapet a little bit and say this - surely to god they don't have a lack of capacity on a day to day basis with four dirty big gene's and if the problem is a lack of capacity it must be in 'maxi whizz' mode, in which case the work around is very straight forward - slow down. 

That said the reports of the symptoms and the cure just don't match up right for me so I'm afraid we are all working with those two spoilers of good comment - assumption and conjecture


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## Satanic Mechanic

Varley said:


> If that is a direct cut 'n paste it can't be written by technical type.
> 
> Alternators providing x volts each. Whatever may be x, without power stated is uninformative - you could get the voltage with a transformer from a domestic light fitting.
> 
> "Each". Not much good if they were different. "High quality AC voltage AND frequency" - my, my clever folk or does MoD N have vessels with AC at no frequency (a blackout perhaps?).
> 
> "Two induction motors are the prime movers" - we seem to have an oozlum bird configuration here.
> 
> Written for a press release I guess.


It's a terminology thang, hopefully not written by anyone technical on the project! I get what they mean though


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## Farmer John

I know from experience that any technical subject that I know anything about that has been reported in a newspaper has been woefully incorrect in some aspect or another. I see no reason why subjects I know nothing about should be any more accurately reported.


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## Peter Titman

*Somebody else's cock up no doubt....*

God help us with trident then if we can't get a little boat's lights on. Ships or anything designed by accountants and politicians in my book flounder eventually (NHS) once they have extracted there fees.


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## Satanic Mechanic

Peter Titman said:


> God help us with trident then if we can't get a little boat's lights on. Ships or anything designed by accountants and politicians in my book flounder eventually (NHS) once they have extracted there fees.


The bad news is that MoD ships tend to be designed by the MoD and not politicians.


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## Dartskipper

One slightly worrying fact was divulged in the paper yesterday. According to the report, the contract for the supply of the machinery for the ships did not include any spare parts. A guarantee was signed for, but it seems that any spares required to put right any faults would be charged to the RN, not the manufacturer. No spares were bought to put on the shelf either. Is this common practice these days? An old friend of the family was ex RN engineering department, and he said they had no problem getting stuff from the stores in his day. But that was in the 1960's. 

Regards,

Roy.


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## Dartskipper

My previous post about the RN advertising for chaps who can repair bikes to join up to learn how to fix a Type 45 is looking less bizarre now. Sky News broadcast a report tonight about a professional racing cyclist who was caught cheating because his bike had a small electric motor hidden within the frame. Sky News got hold of such a bike, and also spoke to the inventor. The motor hides in the tube of the frame between the seat and the pedals, driving them through a shaft and gearbox. The battery lasts for up to 90 minutes, and can be hidden under the seat, or in a dummy water bottle.
So Ron Stringer's post now makes complete sense! Don't need engineers, just loads of cyclists pedalling like mad below decks.

Roy.


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## Ron Stringer

Dartskipper said:


> So Ron Stringer's post now makes complete sense! Roy.


When that happens you know for sure that things are seriously wrong!


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