# Female captains 19th century



## vodkafan

Question from out of left field here. Are there any recorded instances of female Captains from the 19th century in the UK? If so how did these women attend the training colleges and the three or four years required at sea?
Is there any other route for a woman to obtain a Captaincy, ie owning their own boats , gaining experience of sailing and then taking the exams as an independent?
Were there any laws that would forbid a woman from doing so?
For that matter, at what size of vessel did an owner need to hold a Captains licence? I am thinking here of someone who may have owned say, a Thames Barge or a Norfolk Wherry, capable of coastal or cross-channel trips and therefore "under the radar" of the authorities of the time.

I know these are weird questions, they are research for a speculative novel.
Any help or speculations based on some firm knowledge gratefully received.


----------



## Scelerat

There may have been women who owned vessels that did not require certification for their owners/operators. However, I've certainly never heard of a woman gaining a Master's ticket before the 1980's, I would guess, at the very earliest. The very first female Cadets were loosely contemporary with the end of my cadetship in the mid 1970's.


----------



## vodkafan

Scelerat said:


> There may have been women who owned vessels that did not require certification for their owners/operators. However, I've certainly never heard of a woman gaining a Master's ticket before the 1980's, I would guess, at the very earliest. The very first female Cadets were loosely contemporary with the end of my cadetship in the mid 1970's.


Thanks Scelerat. It's about what I expected. So no captains then. What sort of vessels did not need certification back then? (in the 19th century I mean, not the 1970s) Small privately owned fishing vessels or cutters perhaps?


----------



## Robert Hilton

I thought the British master's ticket was first made a requirement in 1850. If this is wrong, could someone please inform me?


----------



## Barrie Youde

My own understanding, for what it might be worth, is that for any vessel trading within Home Trade limits (i.e. from any UK port to any port between the Elbe and Brest) no certificate of any kind was mandatory until well into the second half of the 20th century.

For trade Foreign-Going (i.e. beyond those limits) it might well be the case (as Robert suggests) that a Master's Certificate became mandatory in about 1850. Certification at any level was introduced only in about 1840, as far as I know; and even then on a voluntary basis.


----------



## vodkafan

Barrie Youde said:


> My own understanding, for what it might be worth, is that for any vessel trading within Home Trade limits (i.e. from any UK port to any port between the Elbe and Brest) no certificate of any kind was mandatory until well into the second half of the 20th century.
> 
> For trade Foreign-Going (i.e. beyond those limits) it might well be the case (as Robert suggests) that a Master's Certificate became mandatory in about 1850. Certification at any level was introduced only in about 1840, as far as I know; and even then on a voluntary basis.


 That's good info Barrie thank you. This is what interests me, these bits and loopholes of voluntary certification; what about vessels that were NOT used for trade but privately owned for recreational sailing? I know that these were possibly very rare, but I am stretching a point for plot purposes.
Nowadays you hear the odd stories of some amateur who has bought or even built his own boat and goes off sailing around the world, or pop stars who own big yachts; these are certainly not captains but they are allowed to be skippers of their own vessels. How does that work legally?
I am thinking that there must have been even less legal controls back then?


----------



## Barrie Youde

I'm fairly sure that in the 19th century there was no mandatory certification of mariners at any level, save only for vessels engaged in foreign trade.

As to private yachts (or any vessel owned and used purely for pleasure), the Yachtmaster certificate was not introduced until the mid-20th century.

On further thought, in the case of a Home Trade vessel carrying 12 or more fare-paying passengers, I think that there probably was a requirement for a Home Trade Master's Certificate; but if no passengers were carried, then I'm quite sure that no certificate was required.


----------



## vodkafan

Barrie Youde said:


> I'm fairly sure that in the 19th century there was no mandatory certification of mariners at any level, save only for vessels engaged in foreign trade.
> 
> As to private yachts (or any vessel owned and used purely for pleasure), the Yachtmaster certificate was not introduced until the mid-20th century.
> 
> On further thought, in the case of a Home Trade vessel carrying 12 or more fare-paying passengers, I think that there probably was a requirement for a Home Trade Master's Certificate; but if no passengers were carried, then I'm quite sure that no certificate was required.


Thanks Barrie that's all stuff I can use. I have just been looking at the current UK regs and under 24 metres and less than 80GT for a "pleasure vessel " any Tom, Dick or Harry can be his own skipper, which is rather frightening to be honest.


----------



## stein

This theme was discussed some years ago, and I think I remember then citing some feminist webpage on the matter with at least one American female as master. In Scandinavia the skipper-owner was common in coastal traffic, and when he died early, his wife who had often served as defacto mate, sometimes took over.


----------



## vodkafan

stein said:


> This theme was discussed some years ago, and I think I remember then citing some feminist webpage on the matter with at least one American female as master. In Scandinavia the skipper-owner was common in coastal traffic, and when he died early, his wife who had often served as defacto mate, sometimes took over.


That's interesting stein many thanks. What sort of coastal vessels were typical in Norway at that time? I have a particular interest in Norway quite apart from this reasearch, and if I can find a good excuse would like to incorporate it in the plot!
I have read of Wherrys and Thames Barges that undertook cargo carrying trips as far as Norway, which was probably stretching the Home Trade Limits a bit.


----------



## vodkafan

Wow hold the bus I have just found pictures of a "Nordland Jagt" from 1890. It looks like a modern Viking longship!! That's kind of exciting


----------



## stein

I found it, here:

http://www.nps.gov/safr/learn/historyculture/maritimewomenhistory.htm

The thread:

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=74338&highlight=female+masters
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=18482&highlight=female+masters
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=43551&highlight=female+masters


----------



## vodkafan

Great stuff ! Stein thanks again


----------



## stein

vodkafan said:


> Wow hold the bus I have just found pictures of a "Nordland Jagt" from 1890. It looks like a modern Viking longship!! That's kind of exciting


There was the Jakt (which should not be mistaken for the Nordlands -Jekt, as far as I know there never was a Nordlands Jakt), there was the ketch rigged Galeas, and there were several forms of Skøyte.

Here is a Jekt, as will be noticed she square rigged:

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/49580/title/jekt/cat/533

And here is a Jakt (with a Jakte-Galeas in the background):

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/40260/title/working-boat-/cat/533


----------



## vodkafan

Yes my mistake I see that the Nordland boat should not be called a jakt. And the Jekt is also very different. I found some pics of the Hardangerjakt, that is a pretty design.

It looks like the Galeas has a second, mizzen mast gaff rigged ?


----------



## vodkafan

I found a pic of a skoyte :
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/350928995939961732/

Is that also a ketch? Although I thought a ketch couldn't have a bowsprit. Getting confused here, sorry. Why so many slightly different boat designs but similarly rigged? It is very interesting


----------



## Bill Morrison

I have wondered about woman skippers since seeing a photograph of one in a book I have. The caption reads Mrs Gamble, well known skipper in sailing rig. I have researched her through various record sites with no success.


----------



## vodkafan

Bill Morrison said:


> I have wondered about woman skippers since seeing a photograph of one in a book I have. The caption reads Mrs Gamble, well known skipper in sailing rig. I have researched her through various record sites with no success.


 Great pic. The plot thickens. Could she have been a lifeboat skipper?


----------



## TOM ALEXANDER

Not British, but an American woman, Mary Patten, showed one did not need a ticket to captain a vessel, even a full rigged clipper!

http://www.maritimeheritage.org/captains/pattenJoshua.html

http://www.marinersmuseum.org/sites/micro/women/goingtosea/whither.htm


----------

