# Sidetone or not?



## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

I'm trying to remember whether sidetone was available when I took my morse tests at Riversdale in 1975? I seem to remember we had to take the exam without any sidetone at all or am I just imagining things?


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## beedeesea (Feb 28, 2006)

Not when I did mine in Dublin 1962.

Brian


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## Searcher2004 (May 3, 2012)

Wasn't sidetone considered to be "un-British" or something? Like bug keys and calling CQ on 500kc? 

Lack of sidetone seems to not just confined to marine as I don't think any of the British WW2 military sets I've come across had it, whereas American stuff always did.


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## Chris Jenkins (Mar 16, 2014)

When I took my 2nd & 1st class in 69/70 there was no side tone, and throughout the course none was used (or connected). It was only when I served on newer vessels that one was available...although the buzz of the keyed transmitter was enough !

Chris


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

I did my ticket in 1979 and we had sidetone for the exams and the entire course....


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## Chris Jenkins (Mar 16, 2014)

I remember we were told at the College that side tone was not permitted for the exam, so would not be used.

It seems that the policy was changed at some time during the 70's then ?... Perhaps when the MRGC came in ?


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## Moulder (Aug 19, 2006)

Took my PMG morse exam in June 1971 and sidetone was allowed then. 

(Thumb)


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Sidetone was not permitted when I did my PMG in 1962.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I don't think we had side tone when I did my 2nd Class (about '68). Probably a good job because my morse was so beautiful, I would have been mesmirized. When I did General (about 1979), I was so blase I could have done it with my foot with or without sidetone.

John T


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## Chris Jenkins (Mar 16, 2014)

trotterdotpom said:


> I don't think we had side tone when I did my 2nd Class (about '68). Probably a good job because my morse was so beautiful, I would have been mesmirized. When I did General (about 1979), I was so blase I could have done it with my foot with or without sidetone.
> 
> John T


Surprised you had to resit the morse test for the General, weren't the speeds the same ? (or perhaps they just wanted to swoon at your lovely tones) (Jester)


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## Bob Murdoch (Dec 11, 2004)

No sidetone when I did my 2nd Class at Watt Memorial in 1958 or 1st class in Auckland NZ in 1962.
Cheers Bob


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## Denis Picot (Sep 2, 2008)

Sidetone indeed......wot's that ??? P.M.G. 1958. Never 'erd of e !


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## 5TT (May 3, 2008)

No sidetone permitted for the MRGC in 1976, and even now whenever I operate a straight key instead of the usual electronic keyer on 
my amateur station I still prefer to turn the sidetone off.

= Adrian +


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## ian fears (Dec 1, 2005)

not allowed in 1969


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## beedeesea (Feb 28, 2006)

Surprised to hear that, Adrian.......I would have thought that most Ops preferred to listen to what they were sending.

Brian


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Interesting piece on the news last night about the unusual way of using Morse. The chap who was responsible died yesterday, he was an American Serviceman who was captured by the North Vietnamese. They put him up for a filmed interview, whilst he was being interviewed he blinked in Morse 'that he was Tortured'. The N.V. never caught on to what he was doing. A Brave Man.


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## gwzm (Nov 7, 2005)

Sidetone wasn't allowed when I took my First Class PMG at James Watt Memorial College, Greenock, in 1963. I still prefer to use a straight key without sidetone qnd concentrate on the feel/clicking of the key. That said, the noise of a Marconi 365 is quite distracting because the cover acts like a resonant soundbox.
gwzm


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## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

I've just signed up with the ROA so I shall ask my old morse teacher when I get the bumph through.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Chris Jenkins said:


> Surprised you had to resit the morse test for the General, weren't the speeds the same ? (or perhaps they just wanted to swoon at your lovely tones) (Jester)


Duh, silly me! You're right, Chris - I didn't have to re-sit the morse test for the General cert. I'd forgotten that. No wonder I didn't know if they permitted sidetone or not.

John T


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## 5TT (May 3, 2008)

> I would have thought that most Ops preferred to listen to what they were sending.


I'm sure most ops do Brian, but listening to the rhythm of the key clicks is how we were taught and for me, hearing the sidetone as well is a distraction so I turn it off, it's just a personal preference.

Interestingly, I don't recall being easily able to turn the sidetone off with the gear I operated at sea (when one was available), but then I used an electronic keyer which requires a different technique and a sidetone is required.

= Adrian +


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## GW3OQK (Jun 10, 2010)

We had side tone at Brooks Bar for practice and morse test. I believe that without it you can not judge for yourself the perfection of your sending. Maybe lack of sidetone accounted for crap morse from some operators. I joined a couple of ships which did not have side tone and immediately ran a wire from the tx sidetone output to the rx sidetone input via a potentiometer to control the level. 

I still admire old time land telegraph operators for communicating by the clicking of their sounders. Perhaps it was like the 365 key, the sound of the front contact closing being slightly different to that of the back. I still use the 365A and like to hear side tone and clicks.

Andrew


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## 5TT (May 3, 2008)

> Maybe lack of sidetone accounted for crap morse from some operators.


(EEK) Only one way to settle this Andrew, c'mon, put up yer dits and dahs !! 

= Adrian +


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

For R651400. Ref Ted Whitehead. He also decried the use of sideswipers and said they were for those who couldn't master a pump key. Fred Boetcher had moved onto teaching fault find and techy lecky when I was in LNC. A damn good lecturer too.


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## Chris Jenkins (Mar 16, 2014)

trotterdotpom said:


> Duh, silly me! You're right, Chris - I didn't have to re-sit the morse test for the General cert. I'd forgotten that. No wonder I didn't know if they permitted sidetone or not.
> 
> John T


Well done John....my memory is worse believe me !

One thing we always thought strange was that the requirement to go into GKA was a 1st Class PMG, but that became a General or 1st Class when the MRGC was introduced. As 1st Class was 25 wpm PL and General was 20 wpm I often wonder if this caused some problems... especially as the 2nd class speed was the same as the MRCG, but did not permit entry into a UK coast station.


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## Chris Jenkins (Mar 16, 2014)

Now I wasn't aware of that...thanks !


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## Larry Bennett (Aug 28, 2005)

Definitely no sidetone for the MRGC exam in 1976. Used it of course whilst under training so you could get used to the rhythm. In our mock MRGC test the lecturers involved at Brunel Tech (Lofty Allen and Bill Donley) used to wander around the room slamming doors, talking to each other and making distracting noises to see if we could still send reasonable morse without the sidetone AND not being put off!
Larry +


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

R651400 said:


> I'm a firm believer your morse creed comes from those who teach you.
> King Ratt's Leith Nautical College morse guru Ted Whitehead ex Queen Mary/GBTT joined LNC when I was taking my 2nd Class PMG and morse instructor previous to Ted was Fred Boetcher ex RMS Andes/GCQV.
> Two of the finest exponents of the morse art anywhere.


What is side tone please and why was it used on some occasions and not others?(Thumb)


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## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

chadburn said:


> What is side tone please and why was it used on some occasions and not others?(Thumb)


Sidetone is when you use a morse key you get a beeping noise from the equipment you're using. No sidetone is when you rely on the keyclicks caused by using the key.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

endure said:


> Sidetone is when you use a morse key you get a beeping noise from the equipment you're using. No sidetone is when you rely on the keyclicks caused by using the key.


Thank You for your explanation(Thumb)


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

R651400 said:


> If they had kept one structure with a proviso that the 2nd Class entrants had to achieve 1st Class within a set period or leave they would not have had their unexpected RO2 turnover.
> Ridiculous rules such as RO2's could only man a GKA bay during nights or at coast stations during the quiet 2 hour period of a H8 ship!
> I lasted less than two years under this regime but with hindsight I think they did me a big favour.


Only pommy bureaucrats could devise such a scheme....(Jester)

Surely morse speed was the major determinate for coast station proficiency? Test 2nd class holders at 25 WPM...

What did technical skills have to do with it? There were separate techs to maintain the gear....


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## GW3OQK (Jun 10, 2010)

Adrian, 5TT, how about a sked! Straight keys at dawn may be a problem but one evening 1900 about 3545 could be OK. With or without sidetone. I might even use my ex RN tx and Marconi 365A.

The usual Dueling I do is on the Banjo by the way.
73
Andrew GW3OQK


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## charles henry (May 18, 2008)

gwzm said:


> Sidetone wasn't allowed when I took my First Class PMG at James Watt Memorial College, Greenock, in 1963. I still prefer to use a straight key without sidetone qnd concentrate on the feel/clicking of the key. That said, the noise of a Marconi 365 is quite distracting because the cover acts like a resonant soundbox.
> gwzm


Took my first class PMG at the Ibrox radio college. Asked if I could use a bug and was told OK. (Never had a second class PMG)

Built and used an electronic keyer (Single 6SN7 by memory) for some years then switched to a Vibroplex which I still use on hambands.

Ahh memories
Chas


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

I was indeed an RO2 at GKZ, only allowed on WT outside single op periods !! The turnover was quite rapid. The OC came into the Ops room one afternoon to tell us someone would be arriving tomorrow. During the evening, we got a QTO Hull TR with the addenda .....'Sorry chaps but this pays better', and at a starting pay of £917 per annum, I expect it did !!

David
+


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## Ancient-Mariner (Mar 30, 2009)

I was at Riversdale January 1975 to Easter 1977. MRGC, DoT Radar & MEC.

There was no sidetone when keying during the MRGC exam, not so sure about Morse classes though. ISTR using a largish contact gap so as to get a feel of what I was sending.

I remember noticing during the exam that there was a fly jobby on the sending card for punctuation and accented letters.....

Cheers!


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## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

Ancient-Mariner said:


> I was at Riversdale January 1975 to Easter 1977. MRGC, DoT Radar & MEC.
> 
> There was no sidetone when keying during the MRGC exam, not so sure about Morse classes though. ISTR using a largish contact gap so as to get a feel of what I was sending.
> 
> ...


Was Jim Loughlin still teaching morse with his Vibroplex?


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## Ancient-Mariner (Mar 30, 2009)

endure said:


> Was Jim Loughlin still teaching morse with his Vibroplex?


Yes, I seem to remember that he did, at least on one occasion, although I don't think that he was a regular Morse teacher for the MRGC group that I was in.

Cheers!


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## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

Just had a reply from Jim Loughlin who used to teach morse (to my year at least) at Riversdale. Because sidetone wasn't mandatory at sea we were required to pass our sending tests without sidetone. They just took our headphones off us for the sending test.


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## beedeesea (Feb 28, 2006)

That seems the best explanation, Endure.

Brian


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

The shortage of staff had a bit of a bonus in that it meant loads of overtime, so sort of compensated. On DD at GKA in early December, I remember sitting at a TAS machine for two days just sending QTC's and SLT's on a direct line to Interflora Sleaford. I supposed you could say that was without side tone, as there was no local copy with a TAS tape machine !! .............. (yes, I did say SLT's !!)

Luckily the RO2 bit was 'resolved' not long after that. 

David
+


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## jimg0nxx (Sep 1, 2005)

David,
Do you mean all those SLTs I sent to Interflora (Morden Surrey I think) were never actually sent by post?
Jim


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

jimg0nxx said:


> David,
> Do you mean all those SLTs I sent to Interflora (Morden Surrey I think) were never actually sent by post?
> Jim


Next thing they 'll be telling us they used all those Gold Francs in the *** machine!

John T


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## Chris Jenkins (Mar 16, 2014)

R651400 said:


> To pass the GKA induction course TAS test the new entrant RO had to send thirty standard telegrams (blind) without one single error.


And well I remember it


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## hawkey01 (Mar 15, 2006)

Jim,

no never a one - SLT - was sent by post to Interflora. We had as others have mentioned a dedicated tlx number for Interflora and in the hay days there were hundreds to send. Thankfully this meant that we did not have to copy them. All other standard SLT's - those posted - had to be copied for our accounts. In the early days we had a gigantic machine with rollers and a large pipe out the window for ventilation. It was fed with ink and a chemical, the name of which I have forgotten but very similar to the stuff used for dry cleaning. If this monster was not suitably ventilated or was unwell in any way there were often RO's slouched over telex machines in a state of asphyxia. If it failed we had to copy them manually with a typewriter. 

Hawkey01


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

Jim

This was in the run up to Christmas don't forget. Volumes were enormous and so tempy private wires were arranged, so yes, I did send SLT's to Interflora Sleaford. I think they had a standard telex machine at their end. I stopped every 20 or so and asked 'So far.......... ??' Someone was always there, no doubt doing their bit. They could interrupt you though, tapping keys would jump the tape forward. 

As I say, it was the run up to Christmas and for us detached duty men 09-2300 shifts were commonplace. As a lowly RO2, I needed the money !!

I was at Riversdale 1962-63, and seem to remember an older Morse & Regs instructor called Webster. Think he may have been ex-Mauretania. The story goes that his part piece to impress the passengers was to say 'This is a message coming in', let it roll a bit before getting a pencil from the many in his top pocket and start to write it down. I do remember Mr Loughlin though. 

David
+


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## RO Vintage (Feb 13, 2008)

Atlantic College Dublin 1964 As I Remember All Morse Keys Had A Side Tone
Thanks To Paddy Delaney, Anyone Remember Atlantic? One Thing I Remember
Is When I Got My First Side Key You Had To Have A Side Tone, Or At Times You
Would Be Sending Rubbish. Good Memories.
George Savage Ex Marconi.


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## Rhodri Mawr (Jul 6, 2008)

In 1966 - no sidetone was allowed in the PO morse exam. At Newport, we did have it was advised not to use it for this reason. Get used to sending the dits and dahs without it.

Speeds then were 20 wpm for 2nd class and 25 wpm for 1st Class. That all ended when the MRGC was introduced. The speed for that was only 20 wpm.


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## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

Was there any reason to have 2nd and 1st class tickets? Did 1st class folks get any more money?


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Yes, but not a lot, I can't remember how much. Also 1st Class tickets were required on passenger ships, including ferries (over 250 passengers I think).

John T


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## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

trotterdotpom said:


> Yes, but not a lot, I can't remember how much. Also 1st Class tickets were required on passenger ships, including ferries (over 250 passengers I think).
> 
> John T


They never asked me to sail on a passie ship B\)


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

They didn't ask me either, but a few days after I got my First Class I got a job offer from Townsend Ferries. Somebody must have tipped them off. It was quite a good job but I was more interested in the wide blue yonder than I was in Dover and Zeebrugge.

John T


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## richardwakeley (Jan 4, 2010)

I was on one passy boat - Centaur, VIP to 9VG run in 1979. R/O had to have 
1st class, but i can't remember if this was regs or just Blue Funnel policy. we carried 220 passengers, so only one r/o on h8, just under the requirement for 
h24.
As for sidetone, I didn't need it in my earlier years at sea. But later, when working as assistant lecky on gearbulkers with a tape recorder on 500, and an inmarsat-a for most radio traffic, i found that when i had to send an occasional telegram my morse had become crap and i needed the sidetone.


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## expats (Mar 9, 2013)

R651400 said:


> I'm a firm believer your morse creed comes from those who teach you.
> King Ratt's Leith Nautical College morse guru Ted Whitehead ex Queen Mary/GBTT joined LNC when I was taking my 2nd Class PMG and morse instructor previous to Ted was Fred Boetcher ex RMS Andes/GCQV.
> Two of the finest exponents of the morse art anywhere.


The best morse I've ever heard was by 'Dick' Moody at Southampton College....


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## ian fears (Dec 1, 2005)

Dick Moodys morse was pure music although he didnt teach it at Soton a guy called Fisher did [ 67 to 69 ]


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