# What is an Engineer Apprentice Worth?



## Ian J. Huckin (Sep 27, 2008)

Jeepers, the Engine Room is Aweful Quiet so I thought a new thread might be in order.....

Two sister ships were in Rotterdam together and I swapped one of our ER Apps. (Martin Hammond) for some washing machine spares from our sister ship.

A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do!


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

Ian, that puts a high value on our Martin, worth as much as washing machine spares!
Whose sister was she, did she do the washing well and what spare parts did you get for the lad?

Bob


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## country Captain (Dec 20, 2008)

Handy articles Engineer Apprentices, you'd have been lucky to get the remains of a box of dhoby-dust for an Engineer Cadet!


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## Satanic Mechanic (Feb 23, 2009)

country Captain said:


> Handy articles Engineer Apprentices, you'd have been lucky to get the remains of a box of dhoby-dust for an Engineer Cadet!


explain yourself man


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## Ian J. Huckin (Sep 27, 2008)

Satanic Mechanic said:


> explain yourself man


I believe our man Country Captain is on the cusp of creating some heated response. 

I read in this that an Engineer Apprentice is worth more than an Engineer Cadet. I will now retire to my well stocked bomb shelter.......incoming!!!!!!!


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## douglasjamesmichael (Nov 21, 2005)

In my experience.....Engineering apprentices at least know hold to hold a hammer - dangerous as it sounds and a "slider" Shifting Spanner - Baco's best....as for Engineering cadets - company premadonas who are frightened to get their nails damaged and are hell bent on promotion even though they are F***K**G stupid - god help us from cadets I have had to suffer several - know all know F**K all - don't get me started- also Apprentices know how to hold and use a file and a scraper........they can file and scrape a flat surface


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

douglasjamesmichael said:


> In my experience.....Engineering apprentices at least know hold to hold a hammer - dangerous as it sounds and a "slider" Shifting Spanner - Baco's best....as for Engineering cadets - company premadonas who are frightened to get their nails damaged and are hell bent on promotion even though they are F***K**G stupid - god help us from cadets I have had to suffer several - know all know F**K all - don't get me started- also Apprentices know how to hold and use a file and a scraper........they can file and scrape a flat surface


A little heavy Douglas . Please give all the members a bit of space . We were all in it together .


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## Burntisland Ship Yard (Aug 2, 2008)

I agree with Derek, and by the way I was one of those "premadonas" perhaps Douglas, that was your experience with your company.
We were treated well by the engineers, and learned lots and became just one of the boys. When I became a senior watch keeper, I treated cadets coming through exactly in the same way as I had been treated,and I passed on my knowledge to them.


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## cacique (Mar 26, 2005)

Not sure on the value of an Engineer Apprentice but once witnessed the value of a deck apprentice.

Was going alongside Lome, Togo and had to tie-up alongside another vessel already on the berth. The vessel was an old Greek freighter that had seen better days. The berthing was smooth (from an engineer's eyes !!) however the Master of the freighter was soon on deck shouting and screaming about damages.

Our Chief Officer (SN Member and hope you remember this John) went out on deck and engaged in verbal with the Master of the freighter. Suddenly the Master of the freighter looked up to our Bridge and his demeanor changed and he even smiled.

Our Chief Officer saw the deck apprentice on the bridge wing in his "whites" and, quick as a flash, negotiated that the Master should forget about damages in exchange for our deck apprentice.

The negotiation was never consumed, though we had one very worried deck apprentice.

Kind Regards, Cacique.


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## Basil (Feb 4, 2006)

Reminds me of an engine room pic from the sixties of me (4/E wearing dirty once-white boiler suit) standing next to engineer cadet in dazzling overalls striking stolzen pose (Sp?)
I'm sure he'd have considered cleaning fuel filters totally undignified. Wonder what became of him?
I'd post the pic but it would be a bit unfair 

Edited to say I think the post by douglasjamesmichael is hilarious - totally ROTFL (Jester)


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

There seems to be some confusion over what was an engineer apprentice and a cadet . In Brocklebanks all the engineers apprentices were those who went through the alternative apprenticeship scheme which was based on the RN articifers course . Cadets were in the Navigation department . Am I missing something ?

I was an apprentice with Brocklebanks and was given a very good education and practical sea going experience by excellent engineers ; that I passed on to the young ones came under my supervision in later years .

Ref a previous comment ; yes I can scrape in a bearing and have done so on many occasions ; I was taught by a Chief I sailed with Jimmy Grant from Glasgow ( Dont mess with it ! take a good cut )


One Mans View Derek


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

There does appear to be some confusion between the Cadet and the Apprentice. The Eng Cadets that Douglas may be "upset" about are the "Sandwich Cadets" which some of the Companies forced through in the 1950's for their own ends, most only did the one trip as it was not the life they were led to believe in the brochure. Looking back it makes you wonder whether some of these Companies had been told by HMG that National Service was going to end and were preparing for any shortfalls in 1960. The other problem for these lads was even after a few years at sea when they came ashore to carry on in the Engineering Trade the AEU would not give them a Section 1 card because they had not served a recognised Apprenticeship.


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Thanks for that Geordie , may clear the air a bit . Derek


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## Graham Wallace (May 6, 2006)

I may well be one of the oldest BP Marine Engineering apprentices on the SN website.

The 'Alternative Scheme for Marine Engineering Apprentices' started in BP in 1950/51 with 3 guys, one of whom stayed at sea . The first real intake started in 1952 with 48; 1953 with 66; 1954 with 71 in my 1955 intake with 74. We all sat for OND's in Marine /Mechanical engineering after 2 years at college. During the third year other S3 subjects were taken in related Marine Engineering areas.

In 1957 BP changed our apprenticeship reversing 3rd and fourth years so that the 1 year heavy engineering preceeded the 18 months apprentices seatime so that E/A seatime and J/E seatime was continuous. 

Intake for the following years increased slightly in numbers to around 100. I think the first BP female E/C was possibly Laura Nardon (?) around 2000 but would like some confirmation on that

In 1957 BP started sending some of these Apprentices to Willsden Technical college to study for HND's . I believe the temptation for these guys was not to stay at sea but went on to higher university education.

In 1965 the title was changed from Engineer Apprentice to Engineer Cadet and the 4 1/2 year time was essentially spent in the same manner as original years.

In later years BP did tinker with various Phases ,#III in particular send the guys to 6 months at South Shield Marine & Tech college n ow South Tyne College. Some may have gone to Glasgow College of Nautical studies instaed of SSM&TC.

Whilst at sea 1955 E/A boiler suits brown not white therefore bilge crawling to trace lines was not so detrimental to their look. Only on reaching J/E did I have white boiler suits, they eventually, still ended up black!

Never sailed in air conditioned control rooms. The best boilersuits I had were those bought in Port Said ( or was it Bombay ) with the short sleevs and cotton buttons. I always bought a pair of heavy duty shoes ( with laces) and had a double sole added, they still never lasted the time I spent aboard 

I must say I was glad I was an 'Apprentice' and not a 'Cadet', more down to earth.

For the last 10 years I have been actively searching for and making a database of old BP E/A, E/C's. To date I have located around 430 with names and information on another 2400. 

I think there must be possible 5000+ old BP Apprentice/cadets out there somewhere

Graham


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Thanks for that Graham . If you look at my photos you will see a copy / scan of my apprentice indentures .
I was indentured on 3rd Sept 1962 with the first year pay of Pounds Sterling of 180 ( seemed a lot then )
H aving sailed with Brocks for 12 years thereafter I do not recollect us as having 
Cadets only indentured apperntices ; perhaps it was a company thing .
Not sure what the difference would be .

Regards Derek


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## surfaceblow (Jan 16, 2008)

In the US the United States Merchant Marine Academy cadets were paid one half US Navy Ensign wages while on a ship for their sea time around 400 dollars a month during the mid 1970's and took 4 years to get an license. The Engineer Apprentice on the other hand was paid 200 dollars a month for the entire three years. First six months at school, one year on a ship and another 18 months back at school. At the end of both paths each had a Third Assistant Engineer's License and the apprentice was in Group Two and the Cadet was in Group Three for the union's job call. So it was easier to get a job while in Group Two then Group Three.


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## Graham Wallace (May 6, 2006)

Derek Roger said:


> Thanks for that Graham . If you look at my photos you will see a copy / scan of my apprentice indentures .
> I was indentured on 3rd Sept 1962 with the first year pay of Pounds Sterling of 180 ( seemed a lot then )
> H aving sailed with Brocks for 12 years thereafter I do not recollect us as having
> Cadets only indentured apperntices ; perhaps it was a company thing .
> ...


Derek,
Darned if I can find your scan of your apprentice indentures, so must be looking in the wrong place.....went to your profile then Gallery photos.

Just dug out my copy( dated 1955, aged 16+), my wages at I00 Pounds /year to 185, somehow think over the time it was increased to 200.

Surface Blow - At 3 Canadian $/ UK pound at that time my first year was around $300/ year, final year $600. With Canadian $ 75% of US at that time it makes it even worse............tho we were never unionised.

Graham


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## Satanic Mechanic (Feb 23, 2009)

Cadet, apprentice, call them what you will, they are people there to learn a job and as qualified Engineer its part of your job to teach them. I detest with an absolute vengence, and a vengence that has had more than one diving for cover, the attitude that they are not worthy of our teaching. 

Dead Easy - if you have a trainee who is no good when he qualifies - who do you blame? I know there are some out there who can't be helped but I get the worlds biggest kick out of seeing an ex cadet I have sailed with joining a ship I am on as a competent junior watchkeeper - its just like cleaning the engine when you have overhauled it - that extra little bit of polish.


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## Pat Thompson (Jan 25, 2006)

Greetings,

I am old enough now to remember when a bottle of Mouton Cadet was a bottle of Mouton Apprentice....but then of course we went metric and I could never fathom out the reason why, 'cos the good Lord, had he been metric would only have had 10 apprentices or were they apostles... ah well, nearly pill time again


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## surfaceblow (Jan 16, 2008)

Satanic Mechanic said:


> Cadet, apprentice, call them what you will, they are people there to learn a job and as qualified Engineer its part of your job to teach them. I detest with an absolute vengence, and a vengence that has had more than one diving for cover, the attitude that they are not worthy of our teaching.


Satanic Mechanic I agree with you. On the ships that I sailed on the teaching and learning did not end once you had a license. All the Engineers wanted you to be able to do the next higher position's job also. It likes life easier knowing that when you went on vacation all the equipment would be looked after the same way or better than when you left. Plus the more trained eyes looking at the equipment the easier the job is to keep the ship operating correctly. 

Joe


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## Ian J. Huckin (Sep 27, 2008)

I joined the North Yorkshire Steamship Company in 1968 and can distinctly remember my Dad having to sign across an unfranked stamp with the Queen on it. I was informed at the time, by the BSF, that I was part of the last intake of Indentured Marine Engineer Apprentices as from then on they would be refered to as Engineer Officer Cadets and would not be indentured. At that time the term of Indentureship was reduced from 4.5 yrs to 4 yrs.

My first years wage was 185 pounds with the BSF paying, I believe, 4 pounds ten shillings a weeks towards my lodgings. That just about kept me in the TOC H in Southampton but the 185 pounds was nowhere enough to keep me in the Globe Pub just across the road!!!


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## TIM HUDSON (May 16, 2007)

Douglasjamesmichael has the echo of a "professional third" ??? Some of whom resented any sea trained staff, I suspect chiefly because in a handful of years while they remained Third the thick useless cadets would be Chiefs. But of course to carry out their jobs in this elevated rank the ex-Cadets/Apps would be very heavily dependant upon their super thirds, ignore and disaster would of course ensue. Fortunately the majority of engineers were reasonable people. !


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

S.M. I do not know how old you are but I suspect you were not at sea when the Company Cadets were first "parachuted" in, pre Cadets it was Apprentices and the system/training worked very well whether the Apprentices were from shore-side and went to sea when they were 20yrs old or they were Shipping Company Apprentices. Both were on low wages whilst serving "their time". Adverts began to appear for Eng "Cadets" and if I remember correctly they showed an "Engineer" dressed in immaculate whites in a immaculate Steam Turbine Engineroom with his hands on throttle v/v looking at the guages, unfortunatly there was no mention or photographs of working on Boiler's or any other equipment, they were in my view misled and as they had no previous mechanical training it came as a shock to the majority (I now understand that around 74% only did the one trip) and a lot of them did not really want to know what could be termed as the "dirty jobs" so they were being "carried". No matter how many times you instructed them how to do it they did not want to know and just left it to the "time-served" men. The other problem was promotion/courses, it became quite clear to the time served men that the Cadet's who remained were the favourites and so a "culture" started to break out that "I am not training you on the job for you to take the promotion and money that I am going for"


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## Duncan112 (Dec 28, 2006)

I was a Cadet, unfortunately by the time I joined BP the days of time in a ship yard or heavy engineering works had finished, none the less I had two days workshop time per week in the first two years and two and a half in the third year, don't think I did bad, had no preconceptions about spotless boilersuits, however by the time I had cadets to train whilst I was 2/E and C/E the workshop time had all but vanished and there wasn't the time or manpower at sea to show them more than the rudiments of lathework, fitting etc.

Aspersion is being poured on those that have been Cadets rather than time served men but, pray tell, which ship yard or engine builder does one apply to for an indentured apprenticeship these days?

I'll shut up now otherwise this thread will be relegated to stormy weather!!

Duncan


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## Ian J. Huckin (Sep 27, 2008)

chadburn said:


> S.M. I do not know how old you are but I suspect you were not at sea when the Company Cadets were first "parachuted" in, pre Cadets it was Apprentices and the system/training worked very well whether the Apprentices were from shore-side and went to sea when they were 20yrs old or they were Shipping Company Apprentices. Both were on low wages whilst serving "their time". Adverts began to appear for Eng "Cadets" and if I remember correctly they showed an "Engineer" dressed in immaculate whites in a immaculate Steam Turbine Engineroom with his hands on throttle v/v looking at the guages, unfortunatly there was no mention or photographs of working on Boiler's or any other equipment, they were in my view misled and as they had no previous mechanical training it came as a shock to the majority (I now understand that around 74% only did the one trip) and a lot of them did not really want to know what could be termed as the "dirty jobs" so they were being "carried". No matter how many times you instructed them how to do it they did not want to know and just left it to the "time-served" men. The other problem was promotion/courses, it became quite clear to the time served men that the Cadet's who remained were the favourites and so a "culture" started to break out that "I am not training you on the job for you to take the promotion and money that I am going for"


*Chadburn* - When I joined my first ship the Geordie dispensed 2/E told me "you watch it you little Bast***, I'm after you" When I was put on the 12/4 the Scouser prof. 3/E told me he was paid to be an engineer, not a fuc**** school teacher. I was from the south of England and the whole ER staff were Geordies , Glaswegians and Scousers. Truth be known their shear crappy attitude towards me made me kick back, both in trying to learn, trying to drink and trying to fight.

By my third or fourth trip I was grudgingly accepted and by the time I finished my apprenticeship we were not exactly lovers or good friends but the attitude was a lot more healthy, I went on to sail another 22 years, the last 14 years as C/E and made every effort to break down those geographical divides that probably resulted in a lot of good young engineers leaving the sea.


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## Satanic Mechanic (Feb 23, 2009)

chadburn said:


> S.M. I do not know how old you are but I suspect you were not at sea when the Company Cadets were first "parachuted" in, pre Cadets it was Apprentices and the system/training worked very well whether the Apprentices were from shore-side and went to sea when they were 20yrs old or they were Shipping Company Apprentices. Both were on low wages whilst serving "their time". Adverts began to appear for Eng "Cadets" and if I remember correctly they showed an "Engineer" dressed in immaculate whites in a immaculate Steam Turbine Engineroom with his hands on throttle v/v looking at the guages, unfortunatly there was no mention or photographs of working on Boiler's or any other equipment, they were in my view misled and as they had no previous mechanical training it came as a shock to the majority (I now understand that around 74% only did the one trip) and a lot of them did not really want to know what could be termed as the "dirty jobs" so they were being "carried". No matter how many times you instructed them how to do it they did not want to know and just left it to the "time-served" men. The other problem was promotion/courses, it became quite clear to the time served men that the Cadet's who remained were the favourites and so a "culture" started to break out that "I am not training you on the job for you to take the promotion and money that I am going for"


Not teaching apprentices - sacking offence

Apprentices not willing to learn - find out why - 9/10 it is because it is not the job they imagined. Do they want to continue - yes - help them. Do they not want to continue - then help them in a different way so as they don't ruin their lives.

I detest this idea that 'time served' equals good . I have met as many numpty 'time served' folk as I have met truly good ex cadets - i.e a lot.

Whats in a name? - absolutely disgusting attitude.


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## Satanic Mechanic (Feb 23, 2009)

Ian J. Huckin said:


> *Chadburn* - When I joined my first ship the Geordie dispensed 2/E told me "you watch it you little Bast***, I'm after you" When I was put on the 12/4 the Scouser prof. 3/E told me he was paid to be an engineer, not a fuc**** school teacher. I was from the south of England and the whole ER staff were Geordies , Glaswegians and Scousers. Truth be known their shear crappy attitude towards me made me kick back, both in trying to learn, trying to drink and trying to fight.
> 
> By my third or fourth trip I was grudgingly accepted and by the time I finished my apprenticeship we were not exactly lovers or good friends but the attitude was a lot more healthy, I went on to sail another 22 years, the last 14 years as C/E and made every effort to break down those geographical divides that probably resulted in a lot of good young engineers leaving the sea.


Oh aye they could be real charmers couldn't they - sitting in their mangers.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

S.M. No need to be so offensive, all I am doing is explaining the situation as possibly Douglas saw it when it came to the promotion of the favoured. The problem with the initial Cadet system was that it was the wrong way round, the hands on/mechanical aptitude period should have come first, then the Academic/Officer side which I understand they did reverse eventually when they found so many were doing just the one trip when they realised the "job" was not as advertised.


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## Winebuff (Jan 11, 2010)

The advert that grabbed my attention was of an officer in full "blues" & cap standing at the bottom of the gangplank by an MGB GT (my dream car) with a head line offering all this and £80 week.

Never thought where he was going to keep the car for the 6months he was away.


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

The sad reality of the alternative engineering programme ( which in my view was a splendid programme for those who wanted to go to sea ) was that many who enrolled did so ( with their parents encouragement ) so that that could have two years at college ; ( not only free but being paid wages ) .

A lot fell by the wayside as soon as they got their OND ; some confided in me that that was their intent ( so no interest in going to sea at all )

We all signed a contact ( Indenture signed by our parent ; ourselves and the Company ) but many broke it with no recourse for the Company ;or to much bother to even pursue .

The Companies were the ones who spent a lot of wasted money . 
Those who stayed on and wanted a sea going career were well looked after and in general paid back to the Company what was expected of them. 
The general rule was that one commited to a two year contract after the appenticeship was complete . 

I am happy to have a clear mind on that matter .

Regards Derek


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

I thought there was only engineers from Glasgow, Newcastle & Liverpool, deck officers came from Hull and sparkies came from the south since they did not want to get their hands dirty.

Trust me us Geordies got our fair share of abuse from fellow Geordie senior engineers and my "cadet-ship" was hard both at sea and at college. 

I did learn alot of different disciplines as was required of a marine engineer and with all due respect to shore trained apprentices they would be trained in a certain field as a fitter, ship-wright, plumber, welder and would be very good at that but it was limited to that field. Cadets had to learn across the board so maybe they were not as good a fitter as one from a ship yard but could that good fitter also be a welder or a welder be a fitter etc etc. 

At the end of the day I learnt more from an ex chief engineer from the QM while at college in Gasgow and then from Alan Lowery a C/E who learnt his stuff in Newcastle and I would like to think that I learnt from them in teaching others whether they were cadets or apprentices. 

I believe I did get promoted quicker but I had spent 4 years training as a marine engineer and not as fitter etc so I was a big step ahead plus I had numerous qualifications which the other lads had to pass still. 

Anybody who knows me will read my comments for what they are. I am a marine engineer and solong as you worked hard and if you did pass the exams good look to you all. This is not meant as a slight on either us ex cadets or those who served an apprenticeship.

PS. the biggest pr1ck was from Sunderland/Newcastle and one of the best was from south of London.


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## Satanic Mechanic (Feb 23, 2009)

chadburn said:


> S.M. No need to be so offensive, all I am doing is explaining the situation as possibly Douglas saw it when it came to the promotion of the favoured. The problem with the initial Cadet system was that it was the wrong way round, the hands on/mechanical aptitude period should have come first, then the Academic/Officer side which I understand they did reverse eventually when they found so many were doing just the one trip when they realised the "job" was not as advertised.


Chadburn - I'm innocent m'lud. Sorry I was aiming at the attitude you were citing not at you personally.(Thumb)


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## Graham Wallace (May 6, 2006)

What is an Engineer Apprentice worth”? Back in the early days of the ‘Alternative scheme for Marine Engineers’ I would say one heck of a lot for their Employers.

I can only speak for BP, Their Pilot Scheme started in 1950/51, 5 years after the war ended when BP were expanding their decimated fleet, their engineers were older, new shore trained engineering personnel were joining as J/E’s but would take years before certificated, some were from Marine Industries but many were not ( I spent the summer of 1956 in Thom Lamont Pump works in Paisley, their apprentices finishing their 5 year could be J/E’s—the place was a nightmare, 50 years back into the Industrial Revolution, naturally I enjoyed it…………………..There was a new breed in the works, young men interested in joining the Merchant Navy at a younger age ( getting a profession and pay with money to spare , at times) in a process specifically designed to produce a continuous supply of technically competent engineroom officers. They certainly did not have the detailed and at times ponderous 5 years shore side industrial apprenticeship, but hopefully were selected for their very specific FUTURE value to their employers. 

The other slight incentive at that time was not to enter HM National Service in the Army, I was still forced to register at 18, for the Royal Engineers, was I nuts !

I personally really enjoyed my apprenticeship ,I was educated at a Grammar school which had no technical facilities , I had been messing about in boats all my life and having suspect vision could not join the Navigating field. BP had sent an engineering prospectus to my school, God knows why as their clientele list was going to be miniscule, so at 15 ½ applied to BP only to be told to apply next year! I did and never looked back.

In the early days I knew nobody who entered the programme to get an OND and leave without carrying on into further years; in fact many did not pass the OND, only 5 of 24 in my year. It was probably different once the scheme was expanded to introduce the ‘Sandwich’ style HNC/HND and I can see the temptation to wander off in the path of higher education. I find it hard to understand why BP would entertain that path, the OND was accepted for Part A Second & C/E’s and very few took Extra C/E, so what was their rationale? Changing from ‘Apprentices’ to ‘Cadets’ was just a modern approach, to ‘raise the status bar’ but with exactly the same result……..J/E’s, who only needed OND’s to attain C/E’s certificates.

It was simpler in those days, I guess it is quite different now and I am quite out of date.

To me it was a fabulous experience and I absorbed everything thrown at me like a sponge, some other apprentices who had been at technical school were more blasé, they had done most of it before! But we all went through the Apprenticeship sea time as sheep being sized up by the wolves. My first ship was a 12000 ton diesel tanker built 1947 and feeling her age in Sept 1958, the 2/E was in his late 30’s a dour hardworking/hard drinking Scot , the 3/E older but more carefree, luckily the C/E was a relatively young man with an open mind ( Tony Lowson). We apprentices had a task book based on all aspects of the Engine room and ancillary equipment and luckily this C/E was interested and pushed our tasks improving our knowledge. Amongst other things I learned to trace pipelines like never before, I guess nobody else knew where they went (??), bilge crawling is an art ( no way to keep a boiler suit clean down there). By the time I had finished my 18 month at sea as an E/A I knew BP’s engine rooms, one steam one diesel and was not a green watch keeping J/E.

In later life I continually made sure ‘I‘knew where pipelines went and what was in them.

I paid my dues to BP and served a 2 year contract on a steam ship ,experience of continual main diesel engine maintenance at each port was not too my liking, I took my steam certificate and unfortunately for them walked away from BP and the sea. But I have always missed the running and operation of marine equipment, it was in the touchy-feely era , walking the plates , sweating cobs/salt tablets, listening and looking, never believed any gauge until you had tapped it at least once, never once thinking it could be a dangerous occupation, and mainly fabulous company (there were exceptions).

At that time (1962) BP were into the 10th year of E/A’s who were slowly moving up the promotion ranks and displacing many of the older Engineers, the first E/A to reach C/E arrived 12 years after starting his apprenticeship in 1952. I can only hope that these modern company trained marine engineers would go out of their way to participate in the training of further years of E/A’s. I have the feeling that it was in the early 1970’s that BP began to eliminate the old ‘professional’ 3/E’s, their times were over? I think the sea times for E/A’s in the earlier years were harder than later years due to the senior engineers being the older less inclined staff. The older C/E’s I came across were not anti -E/A’s but were a little lost as how to help.

There were a limited number of Shipping Companies willing to take on Apprentices in this new scheme, in 1953 Swansea Tech only had 7-BP and 3-Shell E/A’s .In my time at Acton Tech in 1955 it was 5-BP, 8-Shell, 2-Esso, 1-Caltex , 2-BI ,2-NZSL, and 1-Port Line, so more companies participating. I guess just about all of them now run E/C programs, and young qualified professionals interchange so all companies’ profit.

I hear the scheme has been adjusted over the years for modern times and I do not necessarily like what I hear, but that is the way things go.

So are Apprentices (and Cadets) worth a lot?………………….Hell Yes!, and those who are not will leave.

As a final note I never came across Female E/A’s (or E/C’s), but am just beginning to find that BP in later years started them up and I am informed there were good ones, so I will now start adding them to my BP E/A (and E/C) database and will be delighted to meet some.

Graham


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## Billieboy (May 18, 2009)

The question of shoreside time served, and seafaring apprentices, will always rub people up the wrong way. The low manning scales of today don't help either. 

I've had a prof 3/e destroying generator heads when assembling them, by using a socket set spanner instead of the correct tube spanner when fitting glow plugs. 32 heads in total! When asked; the answer was, "It fell in the Bilges!" .

To solve a problem on one vessel, I supplied and fitted a new second hand lathe, then put a turner on board for five days, turning spare parts for pumps and valves, the advantage being that the engineers could talk directly to the turner and get exactly what they wanted to finish the job. for two days the turner was teaching engineers and cadets how to use the lathe properly and in some cases giving people their first lessons in turning. The project cost about 20K quids but the total repairs carried out and parts fitted/surveyed was worth at least 30K, with the training for free.


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## Satanic Mechanic (Feb 23, 2009)

Its the idea that the inability to use a lathe, milling machine or weld means you are not an engineer. 

I can do all of them but welding is the singulary most boring pursuit known to mankind and if someone else wants to do it - they are more than welcome to it.

Turner/fitters can be taught to keep watches and operate machinery same as plant operators can be taught to turn, fit and weld. Cadets get a grounding in all of the disciplines and like all of us there things they are better that than others.

As one particularly bitter and twisted old prof 3/E screeched at me one day as I set up a PID controller "Thats not Engineering" reply " Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean its not Engineering"

Same guy when he had seriously upset me over the treatment of a cadet "Back in my day you learned by getting a slap" - some guys just set themselves up(Jester)


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

Sean the Greek (SM), I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not but what I was trying to say was in my cadetship I learnt all of the disciplines, maybe not the best in any one in particular but I did know how to be a plant operator, I could use most machines that where in any workshop, and I loved welding & brazing so at the age of 20 I had some experience and some qualifications. 

I was a 4th engineer and joined with a brand new J/E who was 22 yr old and had been one year out of his apprenticeship. That had been with Rolls Royce, not the diesel side but from the areo side. Poor guy had never used a spanner bigger than 1/2" and as for a flogging spanner. Anyway he was willing to learn and later I was C/E and he was a very good 3/E.


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## Ian J. Huckin (Sep 27, 2008)

*Apprentice/Cadet*

I started this thread hoping that you guys would have some fun with it and I have truly enjoyed ALL the comments...so now I better put in my ha'p'th.

At one stage I was 2/E waiting for a C/E job but it was pretty much "dead mans shoes" at that time so I sort of ended up being a professional second.

The best thing that came out of it was that I sort of absorbed the task of being an "engineer officer cadet training officer" too, I had an inordinate amount of engineer officer cadets and I can only recall one out of many who walked after his first trip. If I recall the trip was a weather disaster, a mechanical disaster and the ports were crap. He left because he found it boring!

Anyway, right across the board the young chaps that I interfaced with were all willing and able, plus they were fun and got up to just the right amount of mischief.

It was a huge pleasure to me when, eventually some of them moved through the ranks to actually relieve me (no jokes please!). However, when that started happening I left and joined another company (SSM) and was sailing C/E three weeks later.

Never saw any cadets after that as times had changed, but I recall those times as a real joy. Working alongside them doing scavenge inspections, pulling units and setting them loose on purifiers and compressors was great.

The world turns, and here I am now as a Senior Site Project Manager for the worlds largest Hydroelectric Power Station re-furbishers and I just took on three Millwright apprentices, aged 34, 42 and 48. Funny world eh?????


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## surfaceblow (Jan 16, 2008)

Ian I known the feeling of being the second for a long time. 

While I was First Assistant Engineer on the Mormac Star the Chief Engineer who use to be the Administration Assistant to the school I went to. Most of the Cadets that came onboard were from Kings Point where the Chief went to school. It was standard operating procedure that the Chief would write all the good evaluations for the Cadets that came our way. While I was to write only the bad ones. After awhile the Kings Point Coordinator came to the ship to find out why I was writing the bad evaluations. 

The New York Kings Point Coordinator and I had a past history when I was an apprentice. I was working on the Deck Lights up the Cross Trees when the Kings Point Coordinator aka Fat Fu** or just plain Fat asked for the Cadets. The AB at the gangway pointed to me on top of the Cross Tree. When I came down the ladder and I was carrying my tools and lights in a bucket Fat started to dress me down for not being clean shaved and not wearing clean khaki's. After a few minutes of the dressing down I lowered my bucket when Fat asked me what I have to say for my self. I answered 1. The Captain told me to get a hair cut and shave and the Chief Engineer told me not too. 2. I do not go to your school.

All of the evaluations was to take into account where the Cadet was in their training program so most of the faults was not with the Cadet themselves but the lacking of training at the school. Only a few of the faults was on attitude. 

My first good Cadet evaluation that I wrote while I was Chief Engineer the package I was given did not have the self franked envelope as per the instructions so I added a note to Fat Fu** where was the F****** envelope.

Joe


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

so Joe, you not like fat people ? (*))


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## surfaceblow (Jan 16, 2008)

No, I grew in to being one of the many fat people around. Fat Fu** was the Kings Point Cadets nickname for him. 

Joe


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Satanic Mechanic said:


> Chadburn - I'm innocent m'lud. Sorry I was aiming at the attitude you were citing not at you personally.(Thumb)


(Thumb) SM, as you are still working for those ever decreasing Pension Benefits I will send you a tin of Pilchards in tomato sauce for your bait box. You will need a Cow Mouth to get it open(Jester)


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## Billieboy (May 18, 2009)

Haven't heard, "cow mouth", since I was an apprentice and had to make a few, in the blacksmith's shop!


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Billieboy, as you know, no Machine Mart or B&Q in those days, we had to make your own tools or buy them from the local Army Surplus Stores complete with arrow.


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## Billieboy (May 18, 2009)

Cow mouths were handy for cleaning up grooving in slipper plates and on slippers on the up and downers, then there were Diamond gouges, cross cut and straight cut chisels for dressing up and cutting key ways. Never had much of my tool kit from the broad arrow shop, my fitter always drummed it into me to make your own tools and never buy them, it saved beer money! The same with Turning, although if one could get a set of form tools together, then there was lots to be earned in crib pins and poker handles! As well as the odd clock case finnial.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

We come from the same background Billieboy, oil groove cutting was an enjoyable art to me as I alway's made sure I left my own particular "flourish/mark". When it came to good spanners the boad arrow were top quality especially if they required the help of a "knocking stick", the smaller lighter end we did indeed make ourselves.


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## ccurtis1 (Aug 16, 2007)

In the spirit of the original posting
"Apprentice boys are half a crown, standing up or sitting down"


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## john g (Feb 22, 2005)

Derek Roger said:


> Thanks for that Graham . If you look at my photos you will see a copy / scan of my apprentice indentures .
> I was indentured on 3rd Sept 1962 with the first year pay of Pounds Sterling of 180 ( seemed a lot then )
> H aving sailed with Brocks for 12 years thereafter I do not recollect us as having
> Cadets only indentured apperntices ; perhaps it was a company thing .
> ...


Hi Derek, 
I started with Brocks same as yourself but in Sept 65. I had indentures signed by parent and witness so was an apprentice. As far as I can remember I ,and others,were apprentice's in the eyes of Davy McGrowther. However a certain captain J P Brand was appointed a training officer and henceforth all correspondence started "Dear Cadet....." which at the time was annoying. It is interesting to note all Blue Flu guys were classed as cadets but that was blooeez for you. Maybe that is what prompted the comments about cadets being non too clever and intent on promotion as I read somewhere B/F carried numerous fitters. Regarding the deck they in Brocks were also apprentices. As I have mentioned before you served your time in Brocks and just got on with it ....no f**ting about!


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

john g said:


> Hi Derek,
> I started with Brocks same as yourself but in Sept 65. I had indentures signed by parent and witness so was an apprentice. As far as I can remember I ,and others,were apprentice's in the eyes of Davy McGrowther. However a certain captain J P Brand was appointed a training officer and henceforth all correspondence started "Dear Cadet....." which at the time was annoying. It is interesting to note all Blue Flu guys were classed as cadets but that was blooeez for you. Maybe that is what prompted the comments about cadets being non too clever and intent on promotion as I read somewhere B/F carried numerous fitters. Regarding the deck they in Brocks were also apprentices. As I have mentioned before you served your time in Brocks and just got on with it ....no f**ting about!


Hi there ;
It was Dave McGrowther we reported too ; he was a friend of my fathers and was 4th Eng when my father was 3rd mate on the Matheran many moons ago .
JP Brand was also a friend of my fathers ; I was on the Masirah as 5th eng with Brand as old man in 1967 ; he almost fired a few of us over some trivia in Middlesbrough ( using the duty mess instead of getting dressed up for lunch in the saloon ; we were in drydock and working our nuts off ) I did not see eye to eye with him at all .
It was just after that I think when he took over the apprentices training .


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## albatross1923 (Sep 18, 2006)

I served my time with Barclay Curles North British Engine Works Glasgow 71 years Ago
Feb 1939/ Feb1944 i was Employed as a Apprentice Engineer
when my apprenticeship was finished i did two more years i was then classed as a Marine
Fitter CADETS were non exsistant i had a good training for going to sea
ALBATROSS 1923
EX MARINE ENGINEER


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## cmakin (Apr 20, 2007)

surfaceblow said:


> In the US the United States Merchant Marine Academy cadets were paid one half US Navy Ensign wages while on a ship for their sea time around 400 dollars a month during the mid 1970's and took 4 years to get an license. The Engineer Apprentice on the other hand was paid 200 dollars a month for the entire three years. First six months at school, one year on a ship and another 18 months back at school. At the end of both paths each had a Third Assistant Engineer's License and the apprentice was in Group Two and the Cadet was in Group Three for the union's job call. So it was easier to get a job while in Group Two then Group Three.


The Cadet ends up with a degree, too, while the apprentice does not. The State Maritime Academies had their own school ships, however occasionally one of their cadets would make a "commercial" cruise. Not sure if they got paid, though.


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## cmakin (Apr 20, 2007)

surfaceblow said:


> No, I grew in to being one of the many fat people around. Fat Fu** was the Kings Point Cadets nickname for him.
> 
> Joe


Geez, I forget his name. But his reputation was legendary. I sailed out of San Francisco for my Cadet shipping and the Academy Training Rep (ATR) for the west coast was just a voice on the end of a phone. I recall wearing my uniform on my first ship. I even made the mistake of coming aboard with it on. We did have to wear it at meals, too; although that was the only one of six ships that I sailed Cadet on that required it. The KP boiler suits were also quickly discarded for something out of the slop chest. For the most part, all the engineers that I sailed with as a Cadet were helpful in training me; the best just let me go with the tools. 

I recall one chief that I thought was going to be a problem. He was an old school type from Georgia, on a Lykes Pacer class ship. He wasn't happy about being on the west coast, and he certainly wasn't happy having a Cadet and one from the west coast at that. When I reported to him he looked at the paper work and sneered, "Is your name Carey?" I answered in the affirmative. He pulled back, looked me up and down and then said, "I got a son name Carey, and he ain't worth a f**k either!". I was lucky because this was the fifth ship I had sailed on, and was pretty familiar with the equipment and certainly not afraid to get dirty (had to hand clean the superheaters on the Pacers). After a couple of weeks we didn't do too badly. To be honest, I don't recall ever getting a bad evaluation at the end of a voyage.


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## surfaceblow (Jan 16, 2008)

I sailed on the Shirley Lykes while I was still going to school. It was also my last ship before heading back to school. I was just leaving the machine shop when the Third asked me for two Crescent Wrenches so I handed the Third the Crescent Wrench from my back pocket. The Third just looked at the double headed wrench with its 4 inch and 6 inch heads and gave me back the wrench called me MAYTAG and went to get his own tools from then on. MAYTAG (washing machine) the Agitator type. 

Joe


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## Ian J. Huckin (Sep 27, 2008)

albatross1923 said:


> I served my time with Barclay Curles North British Engine Works Glasgow 71 years Ago
> Feb 1939/ Feb1944 i was Employed as a Apprentice Engineer
> when my apprenticeship was finished i did two more years i was then classed as a Marine
> Fitter CADETS were non exsistant i had a good training for going to sea
> ...


Well my friend, I still regard you as a Marine Engineer.


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## ANDYP2 (Jun 11, 2009)

Today an ex- marine engineer apprentice / cadet is worth their weight in beer, as the unique blend of practical engineering skills across a wide & diverse range of disciplines is becoming extinct. 
I joined Shell as a Cadet in the late 70's and my father signed indentured papers, although I cannot recall any photo's of smiling chaps in white boiler suits.The 1st 2 years @ college taught us theory in the classroom and how to use a lathe & make a lathe tool in the workshop. "Summer schools" had us taking pistons out of the college engine donated by Reardon Smiths and there was the fortnightly trip out in the ex- inshore minesweeper to get us used to noisy engines.
Trips away were "challenging" at times but on the whole good fun, yes the senior guys had their fun with us but there were opportunities for revenge if you played the game.


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