# Qnr



## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

The piece about the solar plane having reached 'the point of no return' reminded me of one of those Q Codes that, as sea-going R/Os, we were never likely to use. There was another long-winded one about pointing a searchlight at a cloud - but I can't remember it. Reaching the QNR always sounded so dramatic and I remember once sending QNR when crossing the Atlantic in the RAF just because I wanted to use it! Can anyone tell me the one about the searchlight and the cloud? I think it included 'occulting if possible'.
W


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

QUQ. All about shining a searchlite on a cloud .... Wonder if anyone ever used it.

John T


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

QUQ.

Shall I train my searchlight nearly vertical on a cloud, occulting if possible and, if your aircraft is seen, deflect the beam up wind and on the water (or land) to facilitate your landing?

Please train your searchlight on a cloud, occulting if possible and, if my aircraft is seen or heard, deflect the beam up wind and on the water (or land) to facilitate my landing. [AP13]

QNR I am approaching my point of no return.

(I suppose QNR? would be a rather strange interrogative! Much like Am I going Astern?)


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Was QNR an official Q Code or just one of those made up ones like the one for "Send with other foot" (can't recall it now)?

John T


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## holland25 (Nov 21, 2007)

Was it QRR?


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## Searcher2004 (May 3, 2012)

QUQ 

Shall I train my searchlight 
nearly vertical on a cloud, 
occulting if possible and, 
if your aircraft is seen or 
heard, deflect the beam up 
wind and on the water (or 
land) to facilitate your
landing?

Please train your searchlight on a
cloud, occulting if possible and,
if my aircraft is seen or heard,
deflect the beam up wind and on the
water (or land) to facilitate my
landing.


I have the full list in a small text file if anyone wants it!

S2004


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## Searcher2004 (May 3, 2012)

holland25 said:


> Was it QRR?


QRR is, I think, "Are you ready for automatic operation?"


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## Searcher2004 (May 3, 2012)

trotterdotpom said:


> Was QNR an official Q Code or just one of those made up ones like the one for "Send with other foot" (can't recall it now)?
> 
> John T


"QLF?"


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks for the chapter and verse re QUQ. 
QNR was in the full list ... I think the list in the book of regs did not include those intended for aircraft. In the RAF we also used the Z code but were permitted to use the Q code in cases where there was duplication. I think that commercial point-to-point stations also used the Z code.
W


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

Re QLF: one in the list means, "Your keying is defective." But I can't remember it.

As an aside to the above, "lid" is slang for "an incompetent operator" but does anyone know the origin of this?

W


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

QSD. Your signals are mutilated. Originally Your keying is defective. 
QRR I am ready for automatic operation . Send at .....WPM.

Source: Handbook for Marine Radio Communication by Lees and Williamson 1993.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

QLF --- that's it Searcher, thanks. I think it meant "Send with Left Foot". Maybe it originated at Ibrox Park.

Personally, I never used it, I tried to be nice. I did do a sarcastic "comma" once in a while though.

John T


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

QLF. So that's how I was being asked to send! I thought it was only my ear that had the problem not the hand.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

trotterdotpom said:


> QUQ. All about shining a searchlite on a cloud .... Wonder if anyone ever used it.
> 
> John T


They certainly did John. All Airfields had one.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

RFA vessels and RN, in addition to Aldis and 10 inch pedestal mounted signalling lamps, had a 20 inch projector. In the case of RFAs, this was mounted on the monkey island. Its light was derived from two carbon rods electrically energised to provide an extremely bright light.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

chadburn said:


> They certainly did John. All Airfields had one.


Thanks, Chadburn. I think the QUQ code was to facilitate landing. I didn't know about the ID signalling - would have been a treat to see one operating over Thornaby.

John T


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## Paul Braxton (Jul 21, 2005)

light was derived from two carbon rods electrically energised to provide an extremely bright light

Sounds like a piece of kit that was briefly in vogue (at least it was out here in NZ) in the early '60's, a device for producing UV light for tanning! You plugged it in, set it down in front of yourself, then carefully, using the goggles provided, separate the two carbon rods, thus producing an extremely bright arc, which was supposed to make you tanned and gorgeous! How about that.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Got any snaps, Paul?

John T


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## Roger Bentley (Nov 15, 2005)

*Z Codes*



Worldspan said:


> Thanks for the chapter and verse re QUQ.
> QNR was in the full list ... I think the list in the book of regs did not include those intended for aircraft. In the RAF we also used the Z code but were permitted to use the Q code in cases where there was duplication. I think that commercial point-to-point stations also used the Z code.
> W


W, I have the 1932 C & W Service Code book and this contains the Z codes used. The second and third letter seem to have been related to the query. e,g. ZAP =Acknowledge Please. ZAN = We can receive absolutely nothing. ZTH = Transmit by Hand. Cheers, Roger


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## meechingman (Feb 20, 2005)

Worldspan said:


> As an aside to the above, "lid" is slang for "an incompetent operator" but does anyone know the origin of this?


I'm not an R/O, merely a lowly radio ham, but I can remember the expression 'LID' coming up in conversation a few times while I was preparing to sit my RAE. General consensus at the time was that it was an acronym for 'low intelligence device'.


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## Bill.B (Oct 19, 2013)

Used Z codes all the time on RFA's


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Worldspan said:


> Re QLF: one in the list means, "Your keying is defective." But I can't remember it.
> 
> As an aside to the above, "lid" is slang for "an incompetent operator" but does anyone know the origin of this?
> 
> W


I never heard "Lid" used in that sense. It was used as an abbreviation for "sh1tlid", aka Oxtail.

John T


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## Searcher2004 (May 3, 2012)

trotterdotpom said:


> I never heard "Lid" used in that sense. It was used as an abbreviation for "sh1tlid", aka Oxtail.
> 
> John T


Origin of "LID" - how long have you got? (Jester)

One of many theories is that the old landline telegraphists used a sounder for reception and sometimes this was difficult to read. They found that putting a tobacco tin (either the tin or the lid - it varies with the teller) on the sounder gave some crude amplification and improved the "note" giving better readability. The drawback to this theory is that modifying your sounder in this way would have no effect on either your fist or the standard of your operating. 

I've heard "LID" used on the ham bands as a (usually anonymous) comment on bad operating, e.g. a three minute string of CQs followed by the callsign once or calling a DX station on his frequency instead of the requested offset. 

Worth doing a Google search on "ham radio LID" if you've got a day to waste! 

73

2004


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks to meechingman and John T for the replies to my query about the term "lid". In fact, it goes back to the early days of telegraphy and I'm sure that "device", in the electronic sense, is fairly recent. The origin suggested to meechingman when he did the RAE course is redolent of "save our souls" for SOS and I'm sure that this can be discounted. In fact, I think that "lid" is primarily used in amateur radio circles and perhaps it's only R/Os with such links that make use of it. By the same token, I know that 73 has a long history going back to the early days of telegraphy but I did sometimes wonder whether R/Os who sent it were perhaps fellow radio amateurs. 

Since my post about "lid", I've dug deeper and come across a lengthy thread elsewhere. I'll either edit this post with the link or come back when I've checked. I'm currently using an unfamiliar iPad and fear I might lose all this text unless I post right now!

W


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

The place to go is:

english.stackexchange.com

The section is "English Language and Usage" and the query is "How did the term lid come to mean poor operator".

But Google will get you there just as fast.

W


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks to Searcher2004 for your input: I didn't spot your post till later as we were both writing at the same time.
W


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Thanks Worldspan and Searcher. Not being a Ham, I'd never heard the term "lid" but it's just clicked that it's from the old time landline telegraphist jargon (should that be "telegrafist"?).

I know the 73 origin but I didn't when I used to use it.

Here I go again, 73s.

John T


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## Basil (Feb 4, 2006)

I was told that the name 'pundit' was used because it sat out there like an all-knowing wise man.
I recollect the Paull airfield east of Hull made their own by jumbling up the symbols of an old gas discharge sign in a perspex box.


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## Searcher2004 (May 3, 2012)

trotterdotpom said:


> Thanks Worldspan and Searcher. Not being a Ham, I'd never heard the term "lid" but it's just clicked that it's from the old time landline telegraphist jargon (should that be "telegrafist"?).
> 
> I know the 73 origin but I didn't when I used to use it.
> 
> ...


"Telegraphist" is correct I believe, John. 

As for "73s", is it correct to use it in plural? As "73" is "best regards" isn't "best regards's" incorrect? (==D)

'04


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## Searcher2004 (May 3, 2012)

Basil said:


> I was told that the name 'pundit' was used because it sat out there like an all-knowing wise man.
> I recollect the Paull airfield east of Hull made their own by jumbling up the symbols of an old gas discharge sign in a perspex box.











Photo of what I believe is a Pundit light at the Norfolk & Suffolk Aviation Museum at Flixton in Suffolk, UK. IDed by my father-in-law who is ex-RAF ground electrics tech.

73 de '04


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## beedeesea (Feb 28, 2006)

Thanks for the link, Worldspan. I don't recall "lid" or "73s" being used in my (short) time at sea. It also got me to wondering about the origin of the custom R/Os had of addressing each other as "Old Man". Did it exist from the very start, and was it amongst British operators only?

Brian


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Searcher2004 said:


> View attachment 95562
> 
> 
> Photo of what I believe is a Pundit light at the Norfolk & Suffolk Aviation Museum at Flixton in Suffolk, UK. IDed by my father-in-law who is ex-RAF ground electrics tech.
> ...


That looks a fairly modern one, punching Pundit Light on to the Internet brings some good results of the various models that were built over the years.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Searcher2004 said:


> "Telegraphist" is correct I believe, John.
> 
> As for "73s", is it correct to use it in plural? As "73" is "best regards" isn't "best regards's" incorrect? (==D)
> 
> '04


I was kidding about "telegrafist", Searcher (see previous posts about QLF, etc).

73 comes down to us from the two figure codes used by old time landline telegraphists. There is a claim that it originally meant "All my love" and was eventually modified to mean "Best Regards".

"Best regards" is already a plural. "Best regards's" is not only incorrect, it's impossible. "73s" is correct by virtue of its mass adoption by operators all over the place.

John T


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

beedeesea said:


> Thanks for the link, Worldspan. I don't recall "lid" or "73s" being used in my (short) time at sea. It also got me to wondering about the origin of the custom R/Os had of addressing each other as "Old Man". Did it exist from the very start, and was it amongst British operators only?
> 
> Brian


I suspect it was only used by British operators, Brian. I never heard anyone else (coast or ship stations) use it. Personally I always thought it was redolent of "slap up feasts in the dorm" and managed without using it. 

Probably if you sent GM OM to a Taiwan coast station they would have wondered what you were on about.

John T


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## Paul Braxton (Jul 21, 2005)

Sorry, Trotter. (post 18), no photo's of the infernal device. It was certainly interesting to use. There was a distinct smell of ozone in the room during and after. The carbon rods didn't last all that long if I remember rightly. You had to keep replacing them and they were damned expensive. Quite a strange piece of kit all up.


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## Moulder (Aug 19, 2006)

I exchanged the abbreviation "OM" with practically every English speaking station that I worked during the 70s and 80s - and, I might add, with some non-English speaking ones as well.

(Thumb)


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## Andy (Jan 25, 2004)

trotterdotpom said:


> "Best regards" is already a plural. "Best regards's" is not only incorrect, it's impossible. "73s" is correct by virtue of its mass adoption by operators all over the place.
> 
> John T


Tragically 'Best 73's' in voice modes can often be heard on amateur bands (Cloud)


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## beedeesea (Feb 28, 2006)

trotterdotpom said:


> I suspect it was only used by British operators, Brian. I never heard anyone else (coast or ship stations) use it. Personally I always thought it was redolent of "slap up feasts in the dorm" and managed without using it.
> 
> Probably if you sent GM OM to a Taiwan coast station they would have wondered what you were on about.
> 
> John T


It was in pretty common usage in the 60s, at any rate, John. It was the origins of it that interested me. As you say, a touch of the "What-ho, Old Bean" about it. Not sure, but I had always thought of the early ops as being working/middle class men, rather than public school types.
Toodle pip,
Brian


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## Roger Bentley (Nov 15, 2005)

When I first went to sea as an RO September 1950. OM was used extensively as was RGDS for regards. GM, GA and GN also used. Greek ships used KLM KLS KLN for same periods of the day. I believe shortly after partition in 1947 Indian operators used JH for Jai Hind, and Pakistan ops PZ Pakistan Zinda Bad.
Can't say I ever heard either on the Indian Coast in the mid 1950s. Cheers Roger


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

beedeesea said:


> It was in pretty common usage in the 60s, at any rate, John. It was the origins of it that interested me. As you say, a touch of the "What-ho, Old Bean" about it. Not sure, but I had always thought of the early ops as being working/middle class men, rather than public school types.
> Toodle pip,
> Brian


Indeed old fruit. Just what I was thinking. Not many of us types giving up our midnight feasts to slum it with you lot. I mean, attached collars and button up cuffs! Sometimes there was no ice for the G&T! and as for a slice of lime - you'd think they only taught about scurvy in top hole schools. Maybe you were just trying to emulate the superior mannerisms of those few of 'us' that did deign to join you but it would be bad manners to suggest it.

(Or perhaps you were climbing while 'we' were doing the reverse). 

(Am told be one who was that the ladies did counter the hail with Old Girl).

Pip pip, must dash Nanny's calling me for tea.


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## beedeesea (Feb 28, 2006)

"Maybe you were just trying to emulate the superior mannerisms"

Might be some truth in that, David. Weren't there strong objections in some quarters to ops being granted officer status, so hence a desire to "talk a bit like wot the toffs do".

Brian


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

I was told that P+O R/Os used OC (old chap).

With regard to the query from beedeesea about OM _("It also got me to wondering about the origin of the custom R/Os had of addressing each other as "Old Man". Did it exist from the very start, and was it amongst British operators only?")_, I noticed that French stations would use "Mon vx" (mon vieux) when working each other in French, "Mon vieux" being the equivalent of "Old Man".

W


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks, R651400, for pointing out the connection between AR and au revoir ... that had never occurred to me. Another link that's not often made is between "PAN PAN PAN" and the French word "panne", which means "breakdown". By the same token, Sécurité means Safety, as in Safety Message.

A possible connection between the German (amateur only, I think) Morse signal 55 (best success) and two capital letters is intriguing. It would be interesting to know when German radio amateurs started using 55. As far as I know, 55 is not used elsewhere.

W


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

No doubt about OM being in common use at UK Coast stations and on Uk ships but I never heard it from non English speaking stations. Interesting to hear about the French equivalent, maybe other countries had one too.

I'm dubious about AR originating from "au revoir" - the letters are run together and could just as easily be described as RN or EC. Presume 55 is Ham speak - I'm similarly dubious about the Hitler connection, why not just send HH?

What does VA stand for in French?

John T


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

beedeesea said:


> "Maybe you were just trying to emulate the superior mannerisms"
> 
> Might be some truth in that, David. Weren't there strong objections in some quarters to ops being granted officer status, so hence a desire to "talk a bit like wot the toffs do".
> 
> Brian


A battle the plumbers fought before we did I think. I think initially we were Wireless Operators.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Did the powers that be ever listen to what was going on on the air?

I found 55 in a list of Amateur Radio abbreviations - "Best Success", as you said, R65. Maybe it originates in the old Western Union Landline codes as a Greetings message. R65. I thought the German reference was to Heil Humperdinck rather than Harry Himmler but still find the idea a bit doubtful.

DAN also used to send GA (Guten Abend) and whatnot. I suppose stations did that everywhere with their own flag ships.

John T


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Thanks R65. you'd have to be keen to use the HH salute after a hard day's keybashing but, who knows? Different times. As for the swastika resemblance to 55 .... Maybe, but there's nothing "Runic" about that Hindu symbol.

john T


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## frangio (Jan 20, 2012)

Paul Braxton said:


> light was derived from two carbon rods electrically energised to provide an extremely bright light
> 
> Sounds like a piece of kit that was briefly in vogue (at least it was out here in NZ) in the early '60's, a device for producing UV light for tanning! You plugged it in, set it down in front of yourself, then carefully, using the goggles provided, separate the two carbon rods, thus producing an extremely bright arc, which was supposed to make you tanned and gorgeous! How about that.


I had a friend who had one of these lamps on advice from his Doctor. Used to treat very bad acne! Wonder if they are now known to cause skin cancer?

Then again Doctors used to recommend that asthmatics took up smoking!


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

A school fellow I remember had some form of UV treatment for his acne. Looked like a scorched tomato after a session.

I picked up a tin of Potters Asthma Remedy in an antique shop in Onchan a year or so ago - a green tin otherwise very similar to one for Colman's mustard powder:

For the relief of Asthma Hay Fever & spasmodic affectations of the respiratory tract. THIS is a compound powder for burning and inhaling the fumes. In the severe paroxysms of Asthma it will bring relief.
---------------
For CHILDREN-

For spasmodic coughs and croup it should be burnt in the bedroom, especially at night. The cough is relieved and sleep procured.

---------

For outdoor use -

POTTER'S ASTHMA CIGARETTES and ASTHMA SMOKING MIXTURE, will be found invaluable.

FORMULA

Stramonium 30%
Lobelia 15%
Tussilaginis Folium 30%
Anisum 7%
Potassii Nitras 18%

It was still on sale in 1977 and there is a BMA article on it's misuse as an hallucinogenic drug! (can't paste but just Google the stuff).


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## Naytikos (Oct 20, 2008)

posted by John T:


> _No doubt about OM being in common use at UK Coast stations and on Uk ships but I never heard it from non English speaking stations. Interesting to hear about the French equivalent, maybe other countries had one too._


Greeks used FLM (translates as 'my friend') and Germans MF (also translates as 'my friend').

The derivations of Pan Pan and Securite are in the ITU Regs.

Sorry but using the MacBook today which doesn't have either accents or a Greek keyboard so these comments lack a degree of realism!


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

R651400 said:


> Try SS for size t.p!


Whoops, misinterpreted that one too - a bit too cryptic for me.

John T


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

frangio said:


> I had a friend who had one of these lamps on advice from his Doctor. Used to treat very bad acne! Wonder if they are now known to cause skin cancer?
> 
> Then again Doctors used to recommend that asthmatics took up smoking!


I believe UV tanning salons have been banned in Australia - they were given a year to close down. Can't really understand why they need them here anyway, you can get skin cancer by walking down the road for a packet of ****.

John T


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## cueball44 (Feb 15, 2010)

frangio said:


> I had a friend who had one of these lamps on advice from his Doctor. Used to treat very bad acne! Wonder if they are now known to cause skin cancer?
> 
> Then again Doctors used to recommend that asthmatics took up smoking!


Maybe the Doctors in the old days thought Asthmatics smoking a thick roll up of "Old Friend" first thing in the morning was sure to clear their chests.(Ouch)


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