# Captains



## Frank P

I wonder how many Captains have sailed on a ship were the ship was the same age as themselves.

I have just been on the Black Watch and she sailed on her maiden voyage as the Royal Viking Star in 1972 and her present Captain Ingar Neerland was born the same year, both of them were 40 years old this year.

Cheers Frank.....


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## trotterdotpom

My first ship, Ross Polaris, was born the same year as me, but I didn't smell of fish. Come to think of it, my first girlfriend was also born the same year as me, but I didn't smell of fish. Mind you, I wasn't a Captain.

John T


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## James_C

I've sailed on a couple of ships where the Old Man was _younger_ than the ship itself.


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## Uricanejack

I sailed as a Cadet on a ship the British Hazel whic was a few months older than me. Built in 62. I have worked as 2nd officer, Chief Officer and Master on ships older than me. The last ship actualy older than me I worked as Master on was taken out of service a few years ago. I still work on a ship built in the mid 60s just a little younger. Telegraph controle, hydralic telemoters, hydralic ram stearing gear. just in museums . but the only systems I have never had fail. All the modern bridge controle, especialy electronic is just waiting to bite you in the ass. or so I have found. Not better just cheeper.


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## engineer64

I'm not sure this is the right thread, I want to know the regulations regarding the Master's right to have in his charge a firearm ?


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## jmcg

The numerous Merchant Shipping Acts were/are silent on this question.

Interesting indeed.

The Blue Funnel ships Master had access to a firearm. Maybe others too.

Discuss!

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## borderreiver

*fire arms*



engineer64 said:


> I'm not sure this is the right thread, I want to know the regulations regarding the Master's right to have in his charge a firearm ?


If I had one on board I would have shot the vetting inspecters


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## Duncan112

Apparently CNCo used to issue rifles to the officers and the master had a revolver, they were "withdrawn" after an "unpleasant incident" involving the agent around the islands, similarly Shell's "Mosquito Fleet" lost their guns after one or two injuries due to alcohol fuelled boredom. I'll ask around and see if I can get dates. 

I would imagine however that any lawful carriage of pistols would have been discontinued in the wake of the 1988 and 1997 firearms acts?


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## James_C

Firearms can still be carried, however they have to be licensed to an appropriate individual (therefore not the ship), and kept in approved storage.
The real problem is visiting foreign ports where the paperwork burden surrounding firearms can be quite horrific.


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## Barrie Youde

At least one Anchor Line shipmaster carried a gun.

This was Captain James McGill Brown aboard one of their "C" class passenger ships. I was a privileged child aged about 10 accompanying my Dad on a visit to the ship in dock in Birkenhead. We were in Brownie's room. He opened the drawer of his desk and showed me a great brute of a revolver. And then shut the drawer.

Never forgotten.


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## chadburn

I came ashore in 1981 and certainly before that date it was not unusual to have Firearm's onboard even on British flagged ship's, they were either Shotgun's or Pistol's and not just the OM had either or both. Whilst I was sailing under the Red Ensign I had neither, however, when I sailed under the Israeli Flag I was given a Pistol (due to the terrorist threat) which increased after 1972, when MF imploded I handed it back to the Armourer who told me to keep it, I kept it when I lived in Israel and aboard other non Israeli ship's I served on as C.E. until I called it a day. In those day's border security was not so tight. As far as I am aware at one time some Master's were issued with a Pistol as a protection measure against unauthourised boarding by "Orange" Force's during the period of tension in order to protect the content's of the Admiralty Safe, if for some reason they could not get the paperwork over the side in the weighted bag then they would have to set fire to the paperwork whilst covering any breaking down of his office door with what one site member called his wobbly Webley (no shredder's in those day's). If a vessel was going to Dock in "Orange" force controlled country the paperwork was removed along with the Pistol to the last British Embassy before entering "Orange" water's to be collected on the way out. My role at one time as a Boarding Officer (RNR) along with other's was to check and make the changes to the paperwork in the Admiralty Safe when Exercise's were taking place. In today's world James.C. is the best man to give the answer bearing in mind his ship's "other" role.


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## engineer64

I asked the question because a Tanker I sailed during 75, the Master had a revolver. On the poop deck we rigged a target & did some shooting practice.


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## pilot

Engineer64. Sounds like Mobil? Rgds.


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## Aberdonian

*Ships Firearm*

In ’57, at sea in the Liberty ship Tielbank one morning, the Old Man came out onto the wing of the bridge and fired a “testing” round over the side from the ships .38 Smith & Wesson revolver. 
At the time, I thought all the Company’s vessels carried a pistol in the Master’s safe.

Aberdonian


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## Peter Trodden

On the Ulysses (Blue Flue)1956,we had two 303s on the bridge and a Webley Pistol in the chart room. We left Belowan with 4 Sumatran Tigers for Rotterdam Zoo.These were carried as deck cargo in wooden cages on the Top poop deck above the Chinese accom,. A load of meat came on board with these Tigers and instructions on how to look after them on passage. This was the Lampies Job (for a few extra OT hours a day) There were a few worrying times in bad weather,when the lashing on the crates slacked off,and the ABs had to tighten up.Also in very hot weather the Chinese complained of the smell coming down their vents into the accom,. We got them to Rotterdam OK but I often wondered if they had of got loose,what would the reaction have been?(EEK) Bullits flying across the after deck,deck hands scurrying up stays and the poor Chinese crew would have been the first on the Tigers menu.(Jester) ttfn. Peter.


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## CAPT.BOB

I sailed with a BOT acquaintance who had been with Jardines and knew of a Eng Superintendent on the China Coast who had been known as Two Gun Thompson because he carried a couple of pearl handled 45's.
We reckoned that he may have been the father of one of our Masters, also a Thompson, who was born in Shanghai.


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## Duncan112

Seems the rifles and guns were withdrawn from CNCo's fleet in 1968 - they were originally carried as defence against pirates but there was a worry that the Chinese crew might sieze them and use them against the officers.

I got my wires a little crossed as regards the shooting incident - a Phillipine agent used his own pearl handled revolver on the Master of a chartered vessel when the Master refused to use ship's gear to load logs of unspecified and excessive weight. It was a Watts Watts Master who sadly died shortly after the incident.


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## Robert Bush

Back To Masters Younger Than Their Ship I Sailed With Two Canadian Masters Who Were Younger Than The Ship 'estevan' Built In 1912.

On Guns The First Master I Sailed With While Anchored In The Shatt Al Arab Fired His Pistol In The Direction Of Some Balams Aproaching One Night With Suspicious Motives. They Made Off.


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## chadburn

Engineer64, judging by the other contribution's you have read it was not unusual for a Master to have a Pistol at his disposal which was most probably a legacy of WW2, this is why I could not understand why all the fuss was about them from certain member's in regard's to arming Merchant Ship's against the Pirate's. The carrying of weapon's on board was not something new to some of us including yourself.


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## Jon Vincent

I do remember BP ships carried a revolver and a box of shells in the old mans safe, as c/o I had to sign a piece of paper to say that I had witnessed the master disposing of same over the side. Later that trip I was talking to my counterpart on another BP ship, he said that they were dumped as some old man had got drunk and made a really bad job of shooting himself in the head in Little Aden, never ever heard if this was the real story or not.


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## chadburn

Jon, BP Tanker's usually carried Divertord's in the Safe in the event of the "Orange" Forces acting up.


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## kewl dude

My Dad Clem Hayden, born August 1912 sailed the Col James M Schoonmaker, born in 1911, a dozen years. I grew up spending a lot of time on board during summer school vacations.

The Schoonmaker was sold by Shenango in 1968 my Dad was C/E, then sailed by a number of different companies. Cleveland-Cliffs changed her name and she retired in Cliff’s colors mid 1980s to Toledo to become a museum ship.

2012 the ship was dry-docked and the starboard side of the ship returned to Shenango colors with the Cliff’s colors remaining on her port side.

The Schoonmaker was re-christened one hundred years to the minute from her original christening:

http://maritimematters.com/2011/07/ss-col-james-m-schoonmaker-a-century-later/

Lots of nice color pictures here including pictures of the Masters office and adjacent stateroom, all very 1911. 

The Schooner was moved from her long time berth in 2012, which was the very spot she had loaded her very first cargo, coal, on her maiden voyage. 

Attached two pictures from the Toledo Blade showing the move. Two pictures prior to her conversion in 1951-52. Replaced her triple expansion quad with a 5,000 HP GE geared turbine and her original equipment scotch boilers replaced with a pair of oil burning D-types I believe CE.

http://jmschoonmaker.org/

The Schoonmaker is now moored starboard side to alongside the under construction The Great Lakes Historical Society Maritime Museum, image attached swiped from above website.

Greg Hayden


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## trotterdotpom

Was there any weapons training available for these armed and dangerous Captains? Most people who are required to be armed have to be qualified.

I did run into one or two Old Men who I wouldn't trust with a water pistol.

John T


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## chadburn

trotterdotpom said:


> Was there any weapons training available for these armed and dangerous Captains? Most people who are required to be armed have to be qualified.
> 
> I did run into one or two Old Men who I wouldn't trust with a water pistol.
> 
> John T


John, I would have thought that during the War they would have received training, the Pistol in the Admiralty Safe was issued to the Ship along with the Sailing Order Folder and passed on a bit like "The Key".(Smoke)


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## alan ward

Some years ago I saw in an auction house catalogue a cased pair of Colt Navy revolvers.With them came proof that they had been owned by a master of the Cutty Sark.Interesting I thought and promptly forgot about them until I saw them in the Greenwich Nautical Museum.


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## Duncan112

When pistols were banned in the UK, certain exemptions were allowed for weapons of "historic" value. One weapon that surfaced was alleged to be the one carried by 5/O Lowe on the night of the sinking of "Titanic". Except that when researched it was found to have been manufactured some years later and was destroyed along with many other firearms. I was looking for the "Daily Telegraph" report on this (and failed!!) but came across this http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Titanic webley&f=false which may supply some small amusement - space time rift indeed - I suspect someone trying to work the oracle and keep a souvenir.


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## Barrie Youde

#23 

Did somebody mention Shaw Savill? Was it in Hobart?


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## trotterdotpom

chadburn said:


> John, I would have thought that during the War they would have received training, the Pistol in the Admiralty Safe was issued to the Ship along with the Sailing Order Folder and passed on a bit like "The Key".(Smoke)


Sorry, thought the thread was about ships in peacetime. I did sail on a couple of ships where the Captains had a revolver in the safe. Both regarded it as a bit of a joke.

John T


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## chadburn

Sorry John so was I, my inclusion of that great film "The Key" has sent you on the wrong Tack, the revolver was part of the ship's equipment rather than the property of the Master which was passed on to the new Master during wartime and indeed Post War. The revolver's were Webley's which were easy to look after rather than something like a Browning Automatic. It was part of the Post War planning that there was an assumption that the Orange Forces would start were the German's left off (Blockade) until someone pressed the big red button.


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## Clanline

Back in the 60's on Tintagel Castle we had a Lee-Enfield 303 WW1 vintage rifle keft in the flare locker with the ammo in the captains safe. 

In an emergency it would have been useless as it was smothered in grease, wrapped up with oil cloth so would have taken half the day to prepare!

Photo of the gun after cleaning with yours truly on page 4 of my gallery.

I was always pleading with the captain to let me test it with some ammo but he always refused!


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## Samsette

Back in the days of the Monkbarns mutiny a revolver would have been a politically correct piece of equipment for a ship's master. Arming a ships master due to a state of hostilities, i.e. war, would be dangerous. The entire BEF was well armed, remember?


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