# Dems



## al1934

I hope I am in the correct forum?

I am trying to help an old shipmate to trace his father's WW2 service. I have a copy of Page 2 of his Service Certificate - he entered the RN in '43, was trained in GLENDOWER and WELLESLEY and then his account was borne by PRESIDENT III, where he was shown as Acting AB with the Non-Substantive Rate of Act. Seaman Gunner (DEMS). His account was borne from '43 to '45 in PRESIDENT III and then in PEMBROKE until '46.

I would like to find out details of the Merchant Ships he actually served in. My oppo has found a photo of CAMERONIA, and references to pay slips in CALEDONIA and SAMTWEEP (yes, that is the name on the pay slip!). These were all Merchant Ships.

Can someone please advise where I should look? I can find no record whatsoever of the SAMTWEEP online. His pay slip clearly shows he was paid 6d per day from January to August '44 and the ship name is clearly written in capitals.

The photo of CAMERONIA, taken in Novia Scotia, shows it to be crowded with men on the upper deck. Again, I can find no reference to her.

Any help will be appreciated.

Best wishes


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## stan mayes

Hi Alick,
Samtweed was a Liberty ship and as you have his time from January 1944 he went to Baltimore to join the ship as she was newly built then...She then went to ports in the Medi and evenntually returned to the UK in September 1944
I cannot understand the 6d per day payment as he was RN..As DEMS he signed on the ship as Deckhand at 1 shilling a month -his pay was from the RN.
I had a Merchant Seaman gunners certificate and was paid 6d per day.
Cameronia was a troopship -Anchor Line of Glasgow and she is recorded as arriving in Halifax on 15th August 1945 and sailed the following day.
She had been to Halifax in 1939 and 1942 but that was before he joined the RN
Caledonia was sunk on 28th April 1941.
Regards,
Stan


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## IAN M

Alick

As DEMS gunners were sometimes transferred to other ships when abroad, it is unlikely that your friend's father travelled to Baltimore from the UK to join the Samtweed. 

Like Stan, I can't understand the 6d per month. DEMS (Maritime Regiment) were paid 1/- per month and DEMS (RN) were paid 3/6d per month. They also received their service pay, but not the War Risk Allowance paid to merchant seamen.

It would be helpful to get a copy of the Samtweed's 'AGREEMENT AND LIST OF THE CREW', i.e. The Articles, which may be available from the University of Newfoundland, Maritime History Archive, St. John's, NF, Canada A1C 5S7.

Regards

Ian


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## Roger Griffiths

You need to look at the Crew Agreements for the relevant years of SAMTWEED official number 169809 It would not be impossible for him to have picked up the ship in the US. Does his service record mention SAKER?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=17&image1.y=15

CAMERONIA Official number 144242
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...ldSearchNumber=12326&fldInvert=0&SearchInit=6

Best bet is to go to Kew to view.

DEMS were paid a nominal sum and appeared on Crew Agrements usually as Deck Hands for legal reasons. The Crew agreement or Logbook will tell you the correct amount he was paid. Of course this would have been subsidised by his RN pay but this would not be noted in the Crew Agreement.

Roger


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## al1934

Thank you very much for your responses, Stan, Ian and Roger.

I have a copy of Page 2 of his RN Service Certificate : after training in GLENDOWER and WELLESLEY stone frigates he was listed as being borne by PRESIDENT III (an accounting base) and PEMBROKE, which was the RN Base at Chatham. His Service Certificate only lists RN establishments, not Merchant Ships. No mention of SAKER.

However, my friend has now found a Port of Glasgow pass (Seaman's Permit to enter or leave Glasgow Docks) dated 17 April 1945 for the duration of his ship's stay in port, which proves that his father was onboard CAMERONIA at that time.

Also an account of wages dated December 1944 Port Said to 2nd February 1945 Port of Glasgow, which highlights that for the month of January 1945 the CAMERONIA was at sea transitting from Port Said to Glasgow.

His Ministry of War, Transport, pay slip for SS SAMTWEEP clearly shows 14.1.44 to 26.8.44 - 226 days at 6d per day - total earnings £5.13s.0d. Too late to claim he was underpaid now...

By the way, Roger, the NA link to CAMERONIA doesn't work any more. The search facility for the NA has been handed over to Discovery - Heaven help us now.

Best wishes


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## Roger Griffiths

Try again
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...dSearchNumber=175945&fldInvert=0&SearchInit=6
Why they have to change things I do not know. I had just come to terms with PROCAT and then they altered it to the CATALOGUE and now we have DISCOVERY. Makes work for some I suppose.

Roger


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## Hugh MacLean

Alick,

DEMS are difficult to research and usually only the crew agreements of a known ship is the only way to go.

However, before you go trawling through crew agreements send and email to the following: [email protected]

Be specific and stress that he was a DEMS gunner and you have his military records but are interested in the Merchant Navy ships he served in.

CAMERONIA link for 1945 crew agreement - try this: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=bt+381/3335

Regards
Hugh


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## stan mayes

Hi Alick,
If he joined Samtweed on 15th January 1944 he joined her in Baltimore where she was newly built and he made the maiden voyage as she sailed from there on 20th January.
Complete ships crews went to Canada and the US to join newly built ships..
Pals of mine went to the US with crews in Queen Mary and Aquitania..
To check the movements of Samtweed during his time in the ship go to Arnold Hague's - Convoyweb.. Click on Arnold Hague's Ports Database then Click 
Ship Search then type in box Samtweed and it records all convoys and ships movements with dates...
Regards,
Stan


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## al1934

Many thanks for all the assistance! I will follow up navysearch and convoyweb, thank you.

By the way, this photo was in my friend's father's possessions. He is one of the Seamen. We are wondering if someone can identify the size of this gun and is it the normal thing a merchant ship would carry? We are guessing it would play havoc with their deck plating??


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## Hugh MacLean

Looks like a 4 or 4.7 inch gun. This gun is on a merchant ship and was used mainly for defence against surfaced submarines. The deck would have been reinforced for the mounting. Looking at the number of gunners, it would be consistent with one of the bigger ships like the CAMERONIA. 
Looking again it could be a 6 inch and there are at least three Maritime Royal Artillery gunners also in the photo.

Regards
Hugh


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## Roger Griffiths

Looks more like a 6 inch to me. Maybe four Maritime Royal Artillery gunners? 
regards
Roger


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## IAN M

I was in the crew which crossed on the Queen Elizabeth to take over the new Samite in Baltimore. The DEMS gunners, RN and Maritime Regiment, joined in Baltimore and I would be surprised if DEMS ever travelled to the States with the crew. 

Many months later, we returned to Baltimore for repairs. The DEMS gunners left the ship and, subsequently joined another one. And, prior to sailing again, another lot (RN only) joined the ship.


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## John Rogers

Hugh MacLean said:


> Looks like a 4 or 4.7 inch gun. This gun is on a merchant ship and was used mainly for defence against submarines. The deck would have been reinforced for the mounting. Looking at the number of gunners, it would be consistent with one of the bigger ships like the CAMERONIA.
> Looking again it could be a 6 inch and there are at least three Maritime Royal Artillery gunners also in the photo.
> 
> Regards
> Hugh


Nice friendly crew,even holding hands.(*))


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## John Rogers

al1934 said:


> Many thanks for all the assistance! I will follow up navysearch and convoyweb, thank you.
> 
> By the way, this photo was in my friend's father's possessions. He is one of the Seamen. We are wondering if someone can identify the size of this gun and is it the normal thing a merchant ship would carry? We are guessing it would play havoc with their deck plating??


An old friend of my dad was a Navy Gunner (DEMS) during the war. After the war I sailed with him when he was Bosun on the Athel Line.
He would tell me that on one ship he was on every time they fired the gun the galley stove would collapse and soot would be all over the galley,the cooks would go crazy.


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## al1934

John Rogers said:


> An old friend of my dad was a Navy Gunner (DEMS) during the war. After the war I sailed with him when he was Bosun on the Athel Line.
> He would tell me that on one ship he was on every time they fired the gun the galley stove would collapse and soot would be all over the galley,the cooks would go crazy.


My last ship was a destroyer, HMS CARYSFORT. We had three 4.5" mountings. If you were beneath any of them when they fired, all the dust would be shaken out of the punkalouvres and cover everything in the compartments.

I want to thank all you kind people who have responded to my queries. You have been very helpful to my friend John, who is going to join ShipsNostalgia and thank you himself.

Best wishes


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## glojoh

*Thank You*

Hi everyone,
I thought it only both right and proper to join this forum and offer a really *BIG* *THANK YOU* to everyone for all the extremely helpful information they have put forward. It has gone a long way towards filling in the details of my father's war time service.

Yes I am the person that my good friend Alick was referring to. My father never really talked about his war time service and I guess we never really talked that much at all.

Thanks to the links that have been supplied I have now been able to send off an enquiry to find out what Campaign Medals he would have earned, as looking at the various dates that come up on the convoys he sailed in, I am guessing he will have a number of those medals?

Regarding the gun he is sitting on, I agree with those that suggest a calibre of at least 6". The ships that I served on had 4.5" guns and the barrels were a MUCH smaller diameter. Indeed it would have been interesting to watch folks trying to sit on them in a similar way as in that picture. 

I dread to think of the effects these guns would have inside a merchant ship perhaps not designed to carry such a large weapon and when they were fired they would certainly make it known they had gone bang!! I am guessing the ship's rats, cats and sea dogs would not have appreciated the shock that must have been transmitted through the metal platings, but it would certainly be a good way of waking up anyone that might have been a heavy sleeper?? 

Folks very kindly supplied links to the National Archives... By crikey it highlighted just how computer illiterate I am. One day I will find a way of opening up those links and perhaps finding the information but at the moment I am going round in circles (Whaaa)

Oh well enough of my waffle but THANK YOU VERY MUCH for all this much appreciated information (Applause)


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## glojoh

There has been some EXCELLENT information posted on this thread all of which has given me the kick up the backside that was needed to solve my own little domestic mystery.

I believe it is now only right and proper to update EVERYONE that has been so helpful.

I have my father's original Certificate of Service but this has been as much use as a pork chop in a synagogue. It simply states my father was attached to HMS President III from December 1943 until January 1946.

I took the plunge, contacted Director Naval Personnel, sent off the £30 but also made sure they were aware of the fact I had the Certificate of Service. I also mentioned he was a DEMS rating and was shown on the books of HMS President III.

Within a few days I got a reply stating they had found his records but needed more time for further investigations.

Last night I sent off an e-mail repeating the fact I had his Certificate of Service and got the following two replies  The second was unsolicited it was an unexpected, nice follow-up to the first:
_
Dear John, 

Thank you for your recent email. Unfortunately it is impossible to say how much you are going receive in the way of the service history at this stage, on past experiences on HMS President III, they have a lot of Lent's. You would also get a copy of the DEMS (Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship's) record if he served on them and also a copy of the Medal Entitlement Card. 



Yours Sincerely

Hello John, 

President III was an accounting base in Bristol, it all depends where the Navy wanted to send him and they were short on crew, it could be that he was on and off ships DEMS or (SS) Steam Ships (Lent's or duties) all the way through his service. He may well have been based at HMS President III throughout, we just don't know until we trace his service history which is due on or before 24/10/2012. 

Yours Sincerely_

I am more than impressed with the service I have received and we must all appreciate that during times of war, records might not be as accurate as when a country is at peace. 

Hopefully this post might be beneficial to anyone who had a relative who served as a DEMS rating during the Second World War.

It looks like these ratings were moved from ship to ship as and when required and all I now have to do is sit back and wait.

Thanks again for all the MUCH appreciated advice.

John


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## glojoh

IAN M said:


> I was in the crew which crossed on the Queen Elizabeth to take over the new Samite in Baltimore. The DEMS gunners, RN and Maritime Regiment, joined in Baltimore and I would be surprised if DEMS ever travelled to the States with the crew.
> 
> Many months later, we returned to Baltimore for repairs. The DEMS gunners left the ship and, subsequently joined another one. And, prior to sailing again, another lot (RN only) joined the ship.


Hi everyone,
Firstly a quick thank you again for all the help and I did send away for my service record. 

I am now in receipt of all the available information and was wondering if anyone can give any further input on the following

Contrary to what is being suggested my father did travel to the United States and this is the relevant extract:




Does anyone know what LY3 is please?


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## IAN M

They obviously had several drafts and the LY may have stood for Liverpool-New York.


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## glojoh

IAN M said:


> They obviously had several drafts and the LY may have stood for Liverpool-New York.


Hi Ian,
Thank you for the reply and is it a guess or you are sure of the answer? I am not being facetious or rude, just simply curious as my brain is asking why just use 'Y' for New York? 

At first I thought it might have been leave prior to deployment and then it was suggested that this might have been the code for an outward bound convoy.


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## Hugh MacLean

glojoh said:


> At first I thought it might have been leave prior to deployment and then it was suggested that this might have been the code for an outward bound convoy.


Not so much an outward bound convoy but more like an outbound ship in a convoy. Each troop ship had its own code. These codes changed every voyage so difficult to pin down the ship from records.

Regards
Hugh


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## glojoh

Hugh MacLean said:


> Not so much an outward bound convoy but more like an outbound ship in a convoy. Each ship had its own code. These codes changed every voyage so difficult to pin down the ship from records.
> 
> Regards
> Hugh





Hugh MacLean said:


> Not so much an outward bound convoy but more like an outbound ship in a convoy. Each ship had its own code. These codes changed every voyage so difficult to pin down the ship from records.
> 
> Regards
> Hugh


Excellent reply and that would explain the 8 days. Would I be correct in assuming that might have been a fast passage?

My distant memories tell me he went across on one of the 'Queen's'??

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

John


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## IAN M

Just a guess. L first letter of Liverpool and Y last letter of NewYork. There were no LY convoys. 

Regards

Ian


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