# is a brig a boat or a ship?



## vodkafan

Are the various types of Brigantines, Brigs and Hermaphrodite Brig considered as ships, or as boats, as they have only two masts?


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## stein

Good question - as the term ship and ship-rigged is sometimes meant to describe a three masted fully rigged ship, what will then a brig-rigged ship be? I will suggest a brig-rigged ship. But to be on the safe side I will look it up in Falconer's dictionary. He describes _ship_ as a general name given to all vessels navigating on the oceans, though in sea-language more particularly applied to three masted vessels with three-piece masts. A _brig_ as a small merchant vessel with only two masts, and a _boat_ as a small open vessel conducted on the water by rowing or sailing.... which of course makes one ask whether everything with a deck is therefore a ship. :sweat:


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## Scelerat

vodkafan said:


> Are the various types of Brigantines, Brigs and Hermaphrodite Brig considered as ships, or as boats, as they have only two masts?


Use "vessel" instead ......


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## Robert Hilton

There is some overlapping between "ship" and "boat." A vessel carried on board a ship must be a boat, but a submarine is termed a boat as are motor torpedo boats, motor gun boats, air-sea rescue boats and a plethora of others. A ship can be narrowly defined as a vessel square rigged on three or more masts, or more broadly defined as a seagoing vessel with sail or mechanical propulsion.


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## Barrie Youde

Again I would agree entirely with Robert and add that whether a brig might be called a boat or a ship would depend entirely on the context. It could be either or it could be neither, for all of the reasons which Robert explains.

As to context, a quick dip into the Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea might be a useful starting point.

Even "vessel", as Scelerat suggests, might be perfectly right; or it might sound hopelessly formal and/or pedantic.


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## vodkafan

Barrie Youde said:


> Again I would agree entirely with Robert and add that whether a brig might be called a boat or a ship would depend entirely on the context. It could be either or it could be neither, for all of the reasons which Robert explains.
> 
> As to context, a quick dip into the Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea might be a useful starting point.
> 
> Even "vessel", as Scelerat suggests, might be perfectly right; or it might sound hopelessly formal and/or pedantic.


Vessel will do fine; thanks for everyone's input.


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## stein

In Northern, continental Europe at least the term ship as square-rigged ship (as contrasting with a barque) had some competition from the word frigate. A full rigged ship was often called frigate-rigged, or frigate-ship, or sometimes plain frigate without carrying a single gun. There is a book by Basil Lubbock called the Blackwall Frigates, about a type of ship that had a linear development from the old East Indiamen, and though these were unarmed passenger vessels, they were all invariably painted to look like a naval frigate.


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## trotterdotpom

Just curious, why did being confined in a cell become known a being "in the brig"?

John T


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## Scelerat

trotterdotpom said:


> Just curious, why did being confined in a cell become known a being "in the brig"?
> 
> John T


An interesting question, and I would also be interested in the answer!


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## Barrie Youde

According to Wikipedia, the expression "brig" in terms of incarceration arises from the habitual (in USA) use of a brig as a prison-ship.

Sounds as likely as any!


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## Sister Eleff

I was told the simple (probably over simplified!) difference between a boat and a ship was that a ship carried cargo, where as a boat carried people. Not to say that passenger ships are boats, it's just that their passengers *are* the cargo.


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## trotterdotpom

Barrie Youde said:


> According to Wikipedia, the expression "brig" in terms of incarceration arises from the habitual (in USA) use of a brig as a prison-ship.
> 
> Sounds as likely as any!


Thanks, Barrie. Should have thought of that.

John T


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## Cisco

I can't stand the use of the word 'vessel' meself.....

I prefer the Scandi use of m/s rather than m.v.

I though you could carry a boat on a ship but you couldn't carry a ship on a boat.

If the discussion is about sailing ships then a brig is a brig cos its not a ship.

However no matter what you are talking about its not a boat.

When talking to the great unwashed - dirt dwellers and the like - I would call it a sailing ship.


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## Cisco

Sister Eleff said:


> I was told the simple (probably over simplified!) difference between a boat and a ship was that a ship carried cargo, where as a boat carried people. Not to say that passenger ships are boats, it's just that their passengers *are* the cargo.


Common parlance for the Union-Castle passenger carrying thingos was 'Mail Boats' ... they also had 'Fruit Boats' .... a queer sort of a company indeed.

Their non-refrig general cargo ships were called 'black boats'....


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## TOM ALEXANDER

Going back to sail, Somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory, when it came to the British Navy, whether a brig was called a ship, or a brig, depended on the rank of the commanding officer??


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## Barrie Youde

Likewise, when somebody is said to "run a good ship", the "ship" in question is invariably an organistaion which might or might not be recognisble as any kind of vessel at all.

Hence, the context is all-important.

In Liverpool, almost every vessel is referred to as a boat of some kind, from the very grandest Cunard-boat downwards. The ships of the liner-companies were referred to, invariably, as CPR-boats, China boats, City-boats, Clan-boats, NYK Japan boats etc, etc, etc by anybody and everybody connected with maritime commerce.

Context, of course, applies also to Liverpool itself, where very little is revered except football and the Beatles!


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## Pat Kennedy

Barrie Youde said:


> Likewise, when somebody is said to "run a good ship", the "ship" in question is invariably an organistaion which might or might not be recognisble as any kind of vessel at all.
> 
> Hence, the context is all-important.
> 
> In Liverpool, almost every vessel is referred to as a boat of some kind, from the very grandest Cunard-boat downwards. The ships of the liner-companies were referred to, invariably, as CPR-boats, China boats, City-boats, Clan-boats, NYK Japan boats etc, etc, etc by anybody and everybody connected with maritime commerce.
> 
> Context, of course, applies also to Liverpool itself, where very little is revered except football and the Beatles!


The exception Barrie, might be tankers. I never heard reference to Shell Boats or BP Boats, that just doesn't sound right.
Regards, 
Pat(Thumb)


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## Cisco

Pat Kennedy said:


> The exception Barrie, might be tankers. I never heard reference to Shell Boats or BP Boats, that just doesn't sound right.
> Regards,
> Pat(Thumb)


An expression on the Aussie coast was 'home boat'.... which covered any UK flagged ships ... including Bank boats but excluding tankers...


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## Cisco

Not Aussie expressions but I recall 'Joe Shell' and for BTC ( Burgoo, Tripe and Curry) tankers 'Red Sea Beetles'.... and my education was paid for by 'Uncle Stan'....


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## Barrie Youde

#17

Quite right, Pat.

A tanker was frequently referred to as a "tank".

Similarly as to boat/ship, the ultra-modern container ship, including the very largest yet conceived, is invariably referred to as a box-boat.


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## Cisco

In Oz bulk carriers ( coal or iron ore ) were called 'dirt boats'


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## stein

_Tanker is never a boat in English_ - that may be so, but in Norwegian "tankbåt" is perfectly OK. "Tankskip" is definitely harder work for the tongue... 

I wonder whether ship and boat is perfectly translatable into other languages.
Ship - navire - Schiff, boat - bateau - Boot, vessel - vaisseau - Fahrzeug?


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## Pat Kennedy

I think in Spanish, Barco means both ship and boat, whereas Vapor means steamship.
In Tagalog, the Philippine language, they spell it Barko, and Bapor


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## Pat Kennedy

Barrie Youde said:


> #17
> 
> Quite right, Pat.
> 
> A tanker was frequently referred to as a "tank".
> 
> Similarly as to boat/ship, the ultra-modern container ship, including the very largest yet conceived, is invariably referred to as a box-boat.


And a big un was referred to as a _Whopper_!
Pat(Jester)


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## stein

Pat Kennedy said:


> I think in Spanish, Barco means both ship and boat, whereas Vapor means steamship.
> In Tagalog, the Philippine language, they spell it Barko, and Bapor


In my five language copy of Paasch's "From Keel toTruck" the first translation is Ship; Vessel. That is two words in German, three in French (Batiment; Vaisseau, Bateau), but in Spanish nine! Buque, Barco, Bajel, Nave, Nao, Navio, Embarcacion, Vaso, and Bastimento.


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## trotterdotpom

stein said:


> In my five language copy of Paasch's "From Keel toTruck" the first translation is Ship; Vessel. That is two words in German, three in French (Batiment; Vaisseau, Bateau), but in Spanish nine! Buque, Barco, Bajel, Nave, Nao, Navio, Embarcacion, Vaso, and Bastimento.


That slow boat to China was a right bastimento.

John T


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## Aberdonian

*Schuts (?)*



stein said:


> In my five language copy of Paasch's "From Keel toTruck" the first translation is Ship; Vessel. That is two words in German, three in French (Batiment; Vaisseau, Bateau), but in Spanish nine! Buque, Barco, Bajel, Nave, Nao, Navio, Embarcacion, Vaso, and Bastimento.


I have often wondered about the expression, "Dutch schuts (sp.)."
When in GSNC short-sea boats, we tended to defame these small coasters for "stealing our trade." (Jester)

Keith


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## stein

Schuit → boat, vessel, craft, ship. It just has to be the origin of or Norwegian “skøyte.” We imported many Dutch words in the time when a lot of us were soldiers, sailors, maids and prostitutes in Holland. “Skøyte” (Vodkafan asked for a definition) was once a double-ended decked boat with the rudder wholly outside and one mast. But as fishing boats, pilot boats, rescue vessels etc. got bigger they often retained the term used on the original vessels in that trade


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## Barrie Youde

There were Dutch schuyts and there were Dutch schuyts.

Some of the latter-day versions which I recall were as sophisticated as anything which could be crammed into 499 tons gross; while others were not.

An older version would sometimes be described as "a doodlum-clink" as a reference to her under under-powered diesel-engine; with communication by "hand-lead and smoke signals". (Shades of Para Handy without the haggis.)


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## Duncan112

Pat Kennedy said:


> The exception Barrie, might be tankers. I never heard reference to Shell Boats or BP Boats, that just doesn't sound right.
> Regards,
> Pat(Thumb)


But within those two companies the various classes of vessel were referred to as "Boats" - Birdie Boats, River Boats, R Boats, O Boats etc


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## Aberdonian

Barrie Youde said:


> There were Dutch schuyts and there were Dutch schuyts.
> 
> Some of the latter-day versions which I recall were as sophisticated as anything which could be crammed into 499 tons gross; while others were not.


The smaller UK-flag coasters sailing out of the old London Dock were once known locally as "toshers." 

Keith


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## Barrie Youde

#31

Thanks, Keith!

Do you know what the origin might be?


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## Aberdonian

Straight from Wiki: "A tosher is someone who scavenges in the sewers, especially in London during the Victorian era. The word tosher was also used to describe the thieves who stripped valuable copper from the hulls of ships moored along the Thames."

Not at all certain where the connection with coasters is!

Keith


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## China hand

Being and ex Bank Boat and Blue Star Blood Boat, A Boat, Reefer Boat man, I always thought that boats were boats and ships were ships. But then this doesn't really help the fact that brigs are brigs and not boats or ships. It's all rather confusing really(Hippy).


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## Pat Kennedy

Barrie Youde said:


> There were Dutch schuyts and there were Dutch schuyts.
> 
> Some of the latter-day versions which I recall were as sophisticated as anything which could be crammed into 499 tons gross; while others were not.
> 
> An older version would sometimes be described as "a doodlum-clink" as a reference to her under under-powered diesel-engine; with communication by "hand-lead and smoke signals". (Shades of Para Handy without the haggis.)


Ive heard them referred to as Dutch Clogs


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## Robert Hilton

Aberdonian said:


> The smaller UK-flag coasters sailing out of the old London Dock were once known locally as "toshers."
> 
> Keith


Small tugs for towing lighters on the London River were called toshers. This was sometimes loosely extended to any small vessel as a "little tosher."


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## werner_ju

Back to the terms brig or ship:

In English terms a brig is no ship because with sailing vessels in English terms a ship has 3 fully rigged masts. Calling a ship a 3-masted ship is wrong because a ship always has 3 masts. More than 3 masts are counted, same as with barques.

Regards,
Werner


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## Shipbuilder

I always feel that this question is just put on to wind people up!(Cloud)
a ship is something with three square-rigged masts. If it doesn't have them, it is obviously a "boat" Such as the battleboat Warspite (Doesn't have three square-rigged masts!)(==D)
Therefore, everything should be changed.
Warships to Warboats.
Shipping Lines to Boating Lines.
Tall Ships Race to Tall Boats Race, 
Shipwrecked to Boatwrecked.
Abandon Ship to Abandon Boat.
Ship's cat t Boat's cat.
Shipping Lanes to Boating Lanes.
(Jester)
Joking, of course! Call them what you will(EEK)


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