# These people are crazy!



## John Briggs

Video of a very hazardous ro/ro berthing in Greece.

http://gcaptain.com/high-risk-ferry...ed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Gcaptain+(gCaptain.com)


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## Frank P

That is unbelievable, thanks for the link John


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## donald h

Incredible, and dangerous!


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## billyboy

Definately Crazy John. Where was Health and safety.


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## Robert Bush

V. Good seamanship and great mooring gang. Notice the even strain on the moorings. Anyone can do it in good weather.

Brave passengers and drivers. Definitely need a new dock and fenders.

Is this an example of the oceans rising?


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## ben27

good morning john briggs.yesterday,20:43.re:these people are crazy.i watched your link.it is amazing.you have to give points for seamanship.getting the ferry in. but for bravery.the passenger deserve a mention.getting off and running into that mess on the dock!and the drivers,no regard for safety.just get off at any cost.but crazier still are the passengerts running to board.and cars getting on at any cost.they are a weird mob.have a good day.ben27


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## captain61

Great link John..They got there skills from us on the GD..[=D]
Stephen


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## LouisB

captain61 said:


> Great link John..They got there skills from us on the GD..[=D]
> Stephen


My stomach was in a knot watching those departing passengers. Health and safety??? The occasional large swell peaking and the shell doors open - doesn't bare thinking about.

LouisB. (Scribe)


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## John Dryden

Truth is it was not that a big swell at high tide, just a ferry turning round and away.


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## MikeK

R651400 said:


> This is the Aegean so "tide" is not really correct.
> The seas are caused by high winds as can be seen from the flapping of the berthing master's fluorescent jacket.
> The shout you hear is "grigora" which in Greek is "faster" or "hurry up!"
> #7... I doubt it!
> Anyone who has island hopped knows this is an every-day occurrence in and around the Greek islands high winds or not.
> The other video of NEL's Theofilos berthing in Lemnos harbour is equally as good.


Saw the same thing as a passenger from Piraeus to Limassol when we called at Rhodes. Nowhere near the same sea condition but it was bad enough where they couldn't land the doors fully. Couldn't believe it when she discharged/loaded the few cars with the doors 'floated' and just the fingers touching the concrete ! From the non reaction of everyone else, I took it as the norm on island services. This video proves it ! BTW I was on leave from a Finnish/UK ro-ro service and had landed more than a few doors over the years so this had me tripping over my jaw !


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## Hugh Ferguson

If anything remotely like that went on in Dover, the Harbour Board would be sued to the high heavens..........unbelievable!!!!


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## Blackal

Got away with it this time...............

(Like the Costa Concordia - got away with it for years.................)

Al


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## Barrie Youde

I remember once being critical of Greek maritime matters until a wise and kindly old pilot advised, "You should not be too critical. Greece is a poor country and, just as we all do, the Greeks survive as best as they can, sometimes showing remarkably good seamanship whilst on a shoestring budget."

The incident shown here was no Costa Concordia in the act of showing off. It was a ferry which was quite possibly providing a lifeline service for a community otherwise in isolation. When I was a pilot, one of the kindest of compliments ever paid to me (perhaps the kindest ever) by a shipmaster was, "You've done this before, haven't you?" I still treasure that moment. Whoever was handling the ferry in the incident shown here had clearly done it before. His knowledge of his ship and particularly his ground-tackle (I'd guess) must have been perfect. I don't see how he could have done what he did without knowing (i) the reasonably exact soundings (ii) the nature of the bottom and the characteristics of the holding ground and (iii) the competence and integrity of the mate on the fo'csle head and (iv) that his communication with the fo'sle was perfect.

Madness? Perhaps.

Skill? Absolutely.


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## Farmer John

I think the most frightening thing about this is the very scary way that traffic and passengers nearly got entwined. The ship handling was crazy but skilled, the traffic handling was potentially fatal.


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## Trader

Hugh Ferguson said:


> If anything remotely like that went on in Dover, the Harbour Board would be sued to the high heavens..........unbelievable!!!!


The mooring gang wouldn't even turn out in that weather Hugh. We almost had to throw the heaving line into their little huts if it was raining and blowing a gale.(Jester)


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## John Dryden

I have to agree with Barrie,s comments and Farmer Johns but Traders bit about throwing the heaving lines into the hut had me in stitches.


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## Samsette

*Seamanship*



R651400 said:


> I agree 100% plus with Barrie's comments and my experience during and post foc corroborates this.
> Anyone who has ferried out of Piraeus, Patras or Istanbul would know that what the video(s) show is everyday life not some odd occurrence.
> As far as seamanship is concerned I'd put my old "filos" Captain Philip Bougouris ex Hydra Navigation College up against anyone I sailed with in Blue Flue and he would win hands down.


My hat is off to the Greeks. They need lessons from no one.


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## Blackal

Barrie Youde said:


> I remember once being critical of Greek maritime matters until a wise and kindly old pilot advised, "You should not be too critical. Greece is a poor country and, just as we all do, the Greeks survive as best as they can, sometimes showing remarkably good seamanship whilst on a shoestring budget."
> 
> The incident shown here was no Costa Concordia in the act of showing off. It was a ferry which was quite possibly providing a lifeline service for a community otherwise in isolation. When I was a pilot, one of the kindest of compliments ever paid to me (perhaps the kindest ever) by a shipmaster was, "You've done this before, haven't you?" I still treasure that moment. Whoever was handling the ferry in the incident shown here had clearly done it before. His knowledge of his ship and particularly his ground-tackle (I'd guess) must have been perfect. I don't see how he could have done what he did without knowing (i) the reasonably exact soundings (ii) the nature of the bottom and the characteristics of the holding ground and (iii) the competence and integrity of the mate on the fo'csle head and (iv) that his communication with the fo'sle was perfect.
> 
> Madness? Perhaps.
> 
> Skill? Absolutely.


 
Is it 'madness' or 'justifiable' ?

To me - They are playing the odds. 

Would you have your family embark/disembark from that vessel??

Al


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## Barrie Youde

I hope that I would consider all the cir***stances and then make my own decision, just as all the people in the video did.

In fact, on further reflection, I know that that is precisely what I would do.


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## randcmackenzie

Some people got their feet wet, what's the big deal. As Barrie said they had done it before.


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## Blackal

randcmackenzie said:


> Some people got their feet wet, what's the big deal. As Barrie said they had done it before.


Plenty of Egyptian hot-air balloon flights gone before, too..................

Al


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## Barrie Youde

A major difference between a Greek island ferry service and an Egyptian hot-air ballon trip is that one is (usually) a matter of necessity and the other is (usually) a matter of frivolity.

There is no comparison which could realistically be made between the two.


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## John Dryden

I just watched it again,perfectly controlled,foot passengers and cars,then a wagon and a couple of latecomer motorcycles and away,look in the background and no one missed it.Some gear came off it though,one bloke was struggling to carry his load!


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## Blackal

Both activities have been done plenty of times before, and it makes no difference what the purpose is. Therefor - I would say the analogy is fair.

Al


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## Barrie Youde

Al,

You have identified the point where we disagree. In my own view it makes a very great difference as to what the purposeof any risk might be. It seems highly unlikely that any of the people using the ferry would ever give any thought to a hot air ballon ride. How many of us ever do so?


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## Donald McGhee

Very entertaining and symbolic of what can be done when OSH, unions, weather etc are ignored. The end in this case justified the means no matter what your views on safety, seamanship etc are. 
Superb ship handling and heartening to see the shore gang doing what was necessary. In this clip you have to take it at face value, never mind all the sacred cows mentioned.


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## Barrie Youde

Hi, Donald,

Am not at all sure that the weather was ignored. I would suggest that it was most carefully and professionally calculated! It was obviously a borderline case of whether the exercise was feasible or otherwise.

Otherwise I agree with you entirely!


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## Blackal

Donald McGhee said:


> Very entertaining and symbolic of what can be done when OSH, unions, weather etc are ignored. *The end in this case justified the means no matter what your views on safety, seamanship etc are. *
> Superb ship handling and heartening to see the shore gang doing what was necessary. In this clip you have to take it at face value, never mind all the sacred cows mentioned.


That makes no sense to me.............

Here's a scenario for the "great seamanship" supporters to ponder.........

Your son and his wife are on that vessel in similar cir***stances.

You have your two grandchildren staying with you.

The ship founders, or the ramp collapses - for any one of a number of reasons - human failure, mechanical failure or freak wave........

Your Son and daughter don't survive..........

I would suggest that you would vigorously pursue the operators/master of the vessel through the courts - and be citing the "recklessness" of the company and master.........

If it is "reckless" there, it's "reckless" here.

Tell me you wouldn't? 

Al


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## Barrie Youde

Al,

Your argument is hypothetical.

The video is actual.

It would be a mistake to imagine that the Greek law of recklessness is the same as the English law of recklessness. In the case of the video, no accusation of recklessness has been alleged -let alone proven- against anybody in any Court, anywhere, as far as we know.


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## billmaca

There is a video somewhere of something like this in the Faroes ,but with the folk having to time it and jump,no ramp,families included, if you live on a small island you have to get used to a bit more if you want to get of and on in the winter


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## Barrie Youde

The whole point of any discussion on this video, surely, is that it is far from plain sailing?

There are obvious and large risks involved and there is huge skill involved in overcoming them. 

On reading Blackal's posts, the words of Voltaire came to mind:- "I disagree with what you say, but I'd defend to the very death your right to say it."

The greatest point of disagreement is on the matter of motive. It is very difficult to have sympathy with anybody whose sole motive is self-indulgence in a hot air balloon. But that argument does not apply here. This is lifeline stuff. Much like an RNLI coxswain veering down, from windward, onto a ship in distress and effecting a rescue. It is highly laudable. I've no doubt whatsoever that the Master of the ferry would have known when to say "Enough. It can't be done. It's untenable." 

The thing which the video shows was that the ferry service was tenable, if only just.

Hats off.


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## Boatman25

I can remember once maybe twice being taken to Wallasey to see my cousins when I was little, we were on the ferry across the Mersey and it was very rough in the river, when we got on board we had to jump on the ramp when told by the ferryman and when we got off we had to do it again as well as when we came back, I loved it my parents were very unhappy doing it


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## Donald McGhee

In the case of this particular feat of madness, skill, carelessness, or superb seamanship, whatever you may wish to call it, I stick to my comments. We won;t all agree with each other and rightly so, that's what makes SN such a great site.
The fact that the shore gang actually turned out is worthy of mention, the fact they got wet and stuck to what they were doing is again worthy of mention. I wonder if our people in UK or even NZ would have done it?
The skipper is obviously very good at what he does, given the size and general condition of the wharf. When you look at the size of the ship compared to the inadequate berth he had to be pretty good, even in good weather!
I seldom deal in what ifs, only in what is. Too much time and energy is spent on what if, as opposed to what is, case in point being the ship size, wharf size, weather conditions etc. It occurred in Greece, where ferries are more a way of life than many countries and while I grant that there is probably a degree of bravado and maybe even recklessness I still applaud the skippers ship handling. The behaviour of the drivers, passengers etc, well, they choose to use this service and I daresay this is a fairly common occurrence. Can't see folk and cars flying about like that on the Rothesay/Wemyss bay run!!
Have a good day.


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## reefrat

Met many seafarers during my time in Greece, and despite the condecension of many northern europeans towards them I found after I learned to speak the language and had seen them in action, that they were superb seaman making do with limited means and little reward. The holding must have been good and the line crew were on the pace, tripleing up the weather stern line in jig time. I have seen this sort of thing many times ;it is common when the meltami really cranks up and the pax being islanders for the most part knew the score grigora indeed


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## Blackal

R651400 said:


> ...and perfectly obvious why to anyone who reads the rest of your posting.


Thanks for that.................

It was the text in bold which made no sense to me, as it said that it was justified - no matter what side of the safety argument you agreed with? That is quite clearly - a falsehood.



Barrie Youde said:


> The whole point of any discussion on this video, surely, is that it is far from plain sailing?
> 
> There are obvious and large risks involved and there is huge skill involved in overcoming them.
> 
> On reading Blackal's posts, the words of Voltaire came to mind:- "I disagree with what you say, but I'd defend to the very death your right to say it."
> 
> The greatest point of disagreement is on the matter of motive. It is very difficult to have sympathy with anybody whose sole motive is self-indulgence in a hot air balloon. But that argument does not apply here. This is lifeline stuff. Much like an RNLI coxswain veering down, from windward, onto a ship in distress and effecting a rescue. It is highly laudable. I've no doubt whatsoever that the Master of the ferry would have known when to say "Enough. It can't be done. It's untenable."
> 
> The thing which the video shows was that the ferry service was tenable, if only just.
> 
> Hats off.


The Voltaire analogy is beyond me, I'm afraid - but to pick up on your assertion that the balloon enterprise was 'self-indulgant' is not how I would see it.

In both cases the operator has a 'duty of care' for the passengers.
If a footpassenger got washed into the sea and drowned - is the master absolved of responsibility? Legally? Morally? 


To say that the ferry service is 'tenable - only just' puts it just to the inside of the elastic snapping - where it goes horribly wrong. That's too close for me.

We obviously have diametric views on this - perhaps I have been too long in an industry which emphasises the 'duty of care'.

Al


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## Barrie Youde

Al,

If Voltaire's observation (it is not an analogy) is beyond you, then I'm truly surprised. It is one of the most simple and inspirational thoughts which I have ever heard expressed.

As to duty of care, legality and morality, it seems quite clear that Greek law would apply here. I have no qualification in Greek law and do not pretend that I might have. I have no qualification in morals of any kind.

A service which is tenable, only just, is still tenable. On your own view, the island would have no ferry service.

Your suggestion that you might have been too long in an industry which emphasises the duty of care are your own words and nobody else's.


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## Ron Stringer

The passengers and the would-be passengers were all acting of their own free will, could clearly see (and had ample opportunity to evaluate) the risks involved. Nobody forced anyone to go ashore or to board the vessel in the existing conditions. What we saw was a pretty slick operation on behalf of the professionals involved in providing a service for a grateful public who, of their own free will, took risks that they judged to be acceptable. What could be more laudable than that?

Presumably there were other, unseen, people who decided it was not for them and they preferred to stay where they were until the next ferry was due and/or the sea conditions abated. All those that we watched could have done the same. Travel in many places is more challenging than waiting at a bus stop or getting on the Tube, but people in those places still have to travel - life must go on.


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## Barrie Youde

As to the legal aspects of personal injury suffered by passengers, there is an ancient Latin maxim "volenti non fit injuria" which, loosely translated, means that a person who willingly takes part in a risky activity cannot complain (either legally or morally) when injury is suffered in consequence of having taken part. The maxim has been diluted in recent years in English law by the enormous development of the "duty of care" principle and even more so by the statutory Health & Safety regime which has taken much of human life by the throat if not by the gonads. The many absurdities which have arisen in consequence in the last forty years are well do***ented. Many of them are embarrassing to read.

My guess (and it is nothing more) as to Greek law would be that the "volenti" principle remains far more alive than it does in UK.


As to tenacity and the breaking point of elastic, then, in those cir***stances, the very highest levels of skill, management and maintenance are called for to ensure that breakage does not occur; the greatest skill being in knowledge of the breaking points and the requirement not to exceed them. No breakage occurred here.


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## Barrie Youde

As our own economy becomes increasingly precarious, I wonder if we might perhaps see a reversal in UK of the H&S nonsense and some resurgence of the volenti principle?

The fact that we cannot continue with the way of life (and its developments) as known in the past is self evident.

It seems probable that we will eventually need to adopt a more robust and responsible attitude towards risk in order to survive.


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## trotterdotpom

I'm assuming the "volenti principle" refers to people accepting responsibility for their own actions. Maybe it will have to start in the US where Ambulance Chasing lawyers created the litigious society that has spread throughout the western world.

John T


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## Barrie Youde

Moderation in all things, advised the Arisotle,
In either cabbages or kings or contents of the bottle;
Or politics or pleasure or the sharpening by grind:
Observe, observe the measure lightly; seek and ye shall find.

Take the noonday altitude, the highest it will get;
Allow a little faultitude; allow a funny set;
Allow a little more. Then take a stab. Just take a guess.
And that is your position fixed. Peut etre. More or less. 

And, when the odds are stacked against you, moderate them, too.
Have a go! And give it welly – that is what you do.
Don’t just give up because the forecast says that things are risky;
And don’t rely at all, until it’s over, on the whisky.

Necessity, my friend, has given birth to much invention.
The guiding hand of God protects all men of good intention.
He double checks His anchors and His windlass and His Mate;
His engines and communications; these He will debate.

And only when He’s satisfied that all things work full well,
He’ll double check the weather in the very jaws of Hell:
And if it then seems tenable and feasible and right,
He’ll go for it, and serve His fellow men by day or night.

The deed is done. We have survived. A miss as good as mile.
Who dares wins, for all our sins, survival is our style.
It always has been, always will be. Years and months and weeks.
Moderation in all things. We learned it from the Greeks.

BY


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## Barrie Youde

#45

You might well be right, John. It has to start somewhere.


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## John Dryden

Heres on for Al to sink his teeth into..proper crazy!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59b_1335633237


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## Barrie Youde

Puk Ek!

And flat calm, too!


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## James_C

Blackal said:


> We obviously have diametric views on this - perhaps I have been too long in an industry which emphasises the 'duty of care'.


I would very much disagree that the oil industry emphasises a duty of care, all it has done in recent years is explicitly emphasise a duty of blame.
The result is a culture of fear, both open and subconsciously at all levels in the industry, with the result being the moddy coddling, petty, window dressing nonsense labelled as 'safety' which infects that industry and goes beyond the realms of reasonableness. This is the same nonsense meticulously obeyed by all as they're too scared to do otherwise, that or they've had their fingers burnt by turning 'thought criminal' and offering a contrary opinion.


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## ninabaker

That mooring squad were the heroes - no lifejackets even. The one thing I do think they might have had ready for this situation would be a simple grab rope towards the righthand side of the berthing platform so that anyone who lost their footing would have something to grab before getting washed off the side.

Scary stuff nevertheless, not least since not all those disembarking were necessarily regular passengers on the route and migh be expected to be feeling pretty wobbly after the crossing in that weather.


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## John Briggs

Reading all the comments regarding the seamanship of the Greeks brings to mind an incident from Jeddah back in 1969.
A Greek tramp, old, rusty and looking neglected, was berthed just astern of us. The ship was owned by the Master and
Chief Engineer.The Master came on board and asked me if he could check our chart portfolio as he had no charts for his next destination.
I readily agreed and he proceed up to the bridge with some note paper and a dog eared school atlas.
After a few hours at the chart table he returned to his ship and they sailed the following morning.


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## Barrie Youde

How refreshing it is to see the hypocrisy of the "safety first" culture blown sky high.

Our lives have witnessed larger and larger ships propelled with increasing frequency into places which remain resolutely the same size. Why so? It cannot be on the grounds of safety.

It seems obvious that the natural order of human thought is:-

1. Is there a need to do it?
2. What profit will be made by doing it?
3. Can it feasibly be done?
4. Can it be done safely?

Safety, in my own experience, comes at some distance along anybody's chain of thought.


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## joebuckham

5. Αναρωτιέμαι τι ΠΡΟΣΤΑΣiΑ ΤΗΣ ΥΓΕiΑΣ έλεγα για αυτό


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## trotterdotpom

joebuckham said:


> 5. Αναρωτιέμαι τι ΠΡΟΣΤΑΣiΑ ΤΗΣ ΥΓΕiΑΣ έλεγα για αυτό


That's easy for you to say.

John T


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## Barrie Youde

#55

In English, please, o wise one?


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## trotterdotpom

#55 

It's all Greek to me.

John T


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## Boatman25

It says, *I wonder what health and safety would say about this *


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## Barrie Youde

#59

And what view do most of us take of the regime of Health & Safety?


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## Klaatu83

Looks as though it was blowing at least force 7. Personally, I'd have preferred to wait until the gale blew out before attempting this. The very first captain I ever sailed with, a very wise guy, used to have a saying that I never forgot, "Your Schedule Is More Flexible Than Your Ship". Apart from the risk of damage to the ship and there obvious hazard for those line-handlers, there is also the danger to the passengers embarking and disembarking. This is, indeed, nuts!


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## Mad Landsman

joebuckham said:


> 5. Αναρωτιέμαι τι ΠΡΟΣΤΑΣiΑ ΤΗΣ ΥΓΕiΑΣ έλεγα για αυτό


Grae*** est, non legitur - veritas. 

Didn't you mean:

Υγεία και την ασφάλεια 

(?HUH)


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## Mad Landsman

R651400 said:


> Plenty building sites in and around here and not a hard-hat in sight.
> Nothing more incongruous than a gaffer in collar and tie with a hard-hat.
> Do the supply tartan as well as blue and yellow?


I used to have a *white* one - we were referred to as 'snowdrops' by those looking down.


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## Robert Bush

Do not agree it was nuts.

Do agree it was good seamanship with a competent crew and line handlers.


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## Blackal

John Dryden said:


> Heres on for Al to sink his teeth into..proper crazy!
> 
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59b_1335633237


Looks like they all participated of their own free will..............

Good job it didn't happen in deeper water though....

Al


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## John Dryden

Another view from the shore:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwJg0as3U3c


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## Barrie Youde

Guts, skill and a way of life.


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## Blackal

Barrie Youde said:


> Guts, skill and a way of life.


Guts are fine when you are dealing with only your own life - when you are responsible for others' I don't think it is up there as a desirable attribute.

Total reliance upon the anchor(s) laid out - ignoring the "what if?"

It's called "playing the odds".

I doubt if any of you have the courage of your (apparent) convictions where, if you or your loved ones were the subjects of an accident in those conditons - would retain those convictions...

Al


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## Blackal

ninabaker said:


> That mooring squad were the heroes - no lifejackets even. The one thing I do think they might have had ready for this situation would be a simple grab rope towards the righthand side of the berthing platform so that anyone who lost their footing would have something to grab before getting washed off the side.


They "played the odds", and on every occasion so far ( I think) - they have won........

Who knows - when it's you and your kin on that ferry- they may not be so lucky. 

So - Punk......... Do you feel lucky?


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