# Why did P and O always fit 2 main rx?



## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Hello all,

Does anyone know why P and O always fitted 2 main rx to their ships - even the cargo ships...?

My first ship was a P and O Box boat, Ariake/GWED - she had 2.

Here is a pic of a P and O gas tanker- with 2...

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/data/530/img00115.jpg

I can understand pax ships having 2, but why cargo ships?

Mind you, I'm not complaining! 2 main rx was a luxury....


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

One piped down the "Communal AE".............Avoid the "whinging"


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## Bill Greig (Jul 4, 2006)

I only ever had the one on which ever ship I was on. Two? luxury!!
Regards
Bill


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## Tony Selman (Mar 8, 2006)

I don't know the answer but it might be something to do with the way P and O manned their ships. I took the photo that Troppo refers to on Gambada in 1973. From an R/O perspective, P and O tankers, gas carriers AND passenger ships were manned by P and O Bulk Shipping Division (BSD) and the cargo ships were manned separately by General Cargo Division (GCD). It is possible that this is some form of duplication of equipment along passenger ship lines, perhaps another R/O knows the answer. In the photo you can see that there is an Oceanspan 7 which acts as H/F back up to the main transmitter, and not long after this the company doubled up on two very powerful main transmitters. Most ships had two Kelvin Hughes radars with an inter switching unit so all this coupled with a very generous amount of spares gave you every chance of keeping the kit going.

P and O were a great company to work for and I was very happy there.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Yes, we had two STR1600 main tx on GWED as well.

For a first tripper, it was amazing...!

All downhill from there, alas...


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

Nice pic of the two Apollos side by side - you guys were spoilt rotten ;-)


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## Naytikos (Oct 20, 2008)

Niarchos invariably provided two main receivers. These were almost exclusively Eddystone 830s. The exceptions were nine bulk carriers which were disastrously fitted with Crusader/R408. Nothing wrong with the R408; best analogue Rx I ever met, but an Eddystone was installed in addition when each of the ships made their first visit to Skaramanga.
If one knew the ropes, it wasn't difficult to get hold of yet a third Eddystone while at the yard, but it might not be an 830. 

Having two decent receivers opens up a world of possibilities; listening to ball-by-ball while working traffic or taking the press comes to mind.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Naval ship comcens always have at least 4 or 5 rx.

Often more.

Wonderful.


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## Keith Adkins (Apr 21, 2006)

Just to put a dampner on this subject, my first ship, Somali/GFTF, only had the Mercury(MF) and Electra(HF) receivers in 1958. Mind you that was beter than an Atalanta and Alert receivers
Memories Ah memories!


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

A mate of mine (who was the one in the UK Government making the decisions) was telling me the story of Cunard, who could not wait to get rid of the R/O's on QE2 come GMDSS....


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

R651400 said:


> Overkill or perhaps a lack of confidence in their R/O's?
> Blue Funnel by comparison with their attitude towards radio plus infinite parsimony updated only when the regs changed or a radio inspection failure.
> Every Liberty Sam class Blue Funnel bought at the end of the war and there were at least five remained MF only during their entire Blue Funnel and Glen Line service.



Could it be that P and O took radio seriously?


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

"Cunard, who could not wait to get rid of the R/O's on QE2 come GMDSS..."

Tell me about it!!!


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

R651400 said:


> Not sure what you mean by seriously in the context of my posting #10.
> Direct employ or radio company we were all governed by the same regulations.
> As an example of my era I believe Brocklebanks installed equipment that I understand was inhouse built or for a better word homebrew that complied with the IOWT regulations of the time.


I meant that they were not afraid of spending money when it was justified.

I meant that there must have been a radio department manager with authority to specify the equipment fit, rather than some deck super who knew bugger all about radio and was interested in the bottom line.

I meant that they saw the value of having 2 receivers (and 2 transmitters) to make the R/O's job easier, and therefore increase efficiency.

Ergo, they took radio seriously...


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

And could switch one thru to the Communal AE.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Regulations had nothing to do with the fitting of any radio room equipment beyond the SOLAS minimum of Main & Reserve MF transmitters, main & Reserve receivers, autokeying device and 500 kHz auto alarm receiver. (The Reserve transmitter and the Reserve receiver only had to be capable of working on 500 kHz).

A lot of British R/Os became quite snooty when speaking of radio installations, believing the Red Duster meant high standards. However there were quite a lot of UK ships that only had a basic installation as outlined above (and they were not all tramp outfits). The much-condemned 'FOC' vessels were generally far better equipped.

Of course deep-sea trawlers left them all behind, including most of the passenger liners, when it came to radio installations.


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## Tony Selman (Mar 8, 2006)

Having worked for both, I can assure you that Brocklebank's and P and O had great confidence in their R/O's and expected very high standards of maintenance from them. As previously stated P and O equipped their ships very highly and also supplied a lot of spares. Brock's were not quite as good but they were nonetheless a very good company to work for and also very well equipped. Both companies had quite large Radio Departments run by a Superintendent supported by several very experienced ex R/O's.
The story of Brock's having home made equipment is true although I did not personally sail with it. I believe it dates from WW2 when an emergency receiver was made by the Department and had a designation similar to HP1 with the HP standing not for High Power but Huntley and Palmer, denoting the origin of the outer casing! Certainly no post war built ships had such equipment.
As Troppo says, both companies did take radio very seriously and I for one thoroughly enjoyed my career because of it.


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## Roger Bentley (Nov 15, 2005)

*Brocklebank receivers AC1940 and AC1944*

Hi Tony, Yes you are quite right two receivers were developed by the radio department largely due to the expert advice of George Kellam who worked with Bailey the senior radio superintetnedent. They were indeed housed in what looked like biscuit tins and designed to eliminate as much as possible radiation from the IF frequencies. This radiation was used by a lot of intercept operators to try and find illicit use of radios during the war and after. Regards, Roger


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## Tony Selman (Mar 8, 2006)

Thank you Roger. I had a feeling you might come up with the answer.


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## gwzm (Nov 7, 2005)

Brocklebank's SS Mahronda/GDNB had two Redifon R50M receivers and a Brocklebank-built emergency receiver of later vintage than the HP models. The R50M usually used on MF was U/S and I had called GNF with the closing TR, before docking in London, whilst listening on the emergency receiver. That resulted in a bollocking from him because the emergency receiver didn't have QSK and he'd been trying to break in.

Happy days,

GWZM/John


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

The later generation marconi consoles (Conqueror/Apollo/Sentinel/Lifeguard N) were quite flexible.


I used to use the Lifeguard N AA as the 500 watchkeeping rx and the Sentinel as the MF working rx - the Lifeguard N had a BFO, and was quite sensitive. 

I normally left the Apollo on HF.

The Salvor 3 em tx was good on the coast as well.


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## RayL (Apr 16, 2008)

This is slightly off-topic, but never mind.

The recent new do***entary about Bletchley Park in the war made the interesting point that receiver technology made their work possible. The Germans were unaware that we had receivers capable of picking up their distant coded traffic in the first place, let alone the hope of decrypting their messages.


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

Sentinel

Lovely piece of kit...........fault finding paradise.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

DSP rx are the go these days. 

Superb performance...all done in DSP. Even at the front end, now....

The days of analogue "physical" receivers are numbered.

You can use a touch screen monitor and a USB "VFO knob"...

Have a look here...

http://www.flex-radio.com/Products.aspx?topic=PowerSDRv2


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## Naytikos (Oct 20, 2008)

Try fault-finding on that!!!


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## Norm (Jun 21, 2006)

RayL said:


> This is slightly off-topic, but never mind.
> 
> The recent new do***entary about Bletchley Park in the war made the interesting point that receiver technology made their work possible. The Germans were unaware that we had receivers capable of picking up their distant coded traffic in the first place, let alone the hope of decrypting their messages.


Ray. My father was one of the listeners to the German traffic. Messages were sent in bursts of 5 letters. No clue what they meant, and then posted to Bletchley P.O. Box 25.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

For RayL and Norm. My OM, a blind man, read German traffic also. The receiver was an American Hallicrafter Sky Champion. 
Apologies for off topic entry.


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## Tony Selman (Mar 8, 2006)

Overkill? P and O obviously did not consider it to be so but some (many?) other companies only fitted one main receiver. Who is to say who was right, if they have the money and want to do it then so be it. We as P and O R/O's obviously benefitted by having that level of back up but it did not stop us still fixing the kit when it broke down.
I can't answer your question concerning the whole P and O Group policy. I joined P and O in late 1969. I was offered the choice of GCD or BSD as mentioned above. I chose BSD and therefore manned the passenger ships, tankers (Trident) and gas carriers. At that time I am almost certain GCD comprised P and O cargo ships only and as the Radio Superintendent who interviewed me offered me the choice of cargo ships they must have been responsible for their manning, and equipment fit, as well. NZS manned their own ships. I am relatively sure that Hain's and Strick's were manned by Marconi's but someone else can confirm that. Subsequently all the constituent cargo companies were merged into one and I do not know what happened after that. There are GCD R/O's on the board so they will know.


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## jimg0nxx (Sep 1, 2005)

Having sailed in two Hains ships, they had the normal Marconi fit of the period. Trelissick had a CR300 Rx and Oceanspan transmitter and Trecarrell Atlanta Rx and Oceanspan Tx. Also sailed in BI's Devonia and I think she had Mercury/Ellectra Rxs and Globespan TX.
This was of course before P & O group revolution, when they started the different passenger, cargo etc divisions.

Jim


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

R651400, even I know that those letters stand for General Cargo Division and Bulk Ships Division (I think). I think BI, Hains Nourse and Stricks were manned by Marconi until the creation of the GCD. What a bonus, two receivers and a Strick's run!

John T


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

I never understood why many shipping companies were so tight-fisted when it came to the provision of radio and other electronic devices. A ship is an asset with a value of several million dollars, probably more than a lot of factories. That asset, unlike a factory, does not have ready access to emergency services and is often subject to environmental conditions far in excess of those met in most factories ashore. Service and spare parts needed to repair faulty utilities are not 45 minutes away, as ashore. Nevertheless, there are few factories of similar value (and with such expensive contents) that are set up with just a single telephone that can only be operated by one, specially-trained, operative.

Duplication of communications (and I don't restrict that to emergency-only facilities) and essential electronic equipment would seem to me to be the minimum requirement, not an overkill. Having a second HF receiver would remove any risk that a change of orders might not arrive in time. How many calls did we receive of the nature "She is due to sail in one hour and the radar isn't working. Can you get someone down to fix it or we will miss the tide?" The cost of such a delay would more than pay for an additional radar and would have obviated the risk of such delays and removed a lot of hassle from the Master's life. 

Extra radar? Don't you know that we need to upgrade the Board Room furniture this year. And the carpet in the reception area is looking a little worn. Do get your priorities right!


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## Tony Selman (Mar 8, 2006)

R651400, I most certainly am not getting carried away with my own P and O importance, mainly because I do not have any. If you read the whole thread you will see that I described what BSD and GCD stood for and referred to it in my last message and it seemed easier to refer to those letters rather than keep repeating the full names.
Trotterdotpom sums it up perfectly in that the three companies he mentions were manned by Marconi men, as far as I know even though they were part of the larger group. To the best of my knowledge only the P and O Divisions described earlier and NZS employed their own R/O's directly. I can only repeat my earlier comment in that the two companies I worked for, ie Brocklebank's and P and O, were both excellent companies to work for, they equipped their ships well, they treated their employees well and most certainly expected the R/O's to repair the equipment, whether it was duplicated or not. I am sure many other companies had exactly the same policy and were equally good to work for. I leave it to others to comment on that.


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## Tony Selman (Mar 8, 2006)

R651400, you probably cannot get the point because I am not trying to make one. You may think 2 receivers are overkill, others may not, it is just a matter of opinion. I am well aware that Blue Funnel were excellent employers and there have been any number of threads from their former employees in every department that confirm that. They were in fact the first company I applied to but they had no vacancies. I am in a regular exchange of banter with one of my good friends who worked for them for many years over the Holt's policy of the Senior R/O doing the Pursers work and the 2nd R/O doing the watchkeeping. It is just that, banter, and equally has nothing really to do with this thread. Companies are excellent in different ways.


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## G4UMW (May 30, 2007)

Norm said:


> No clue what they meant, and then posted to Bletchley P.O. Box 25.


Voluntary Interceptor (V.I.) logs were sent to P.O. Box 25, Barnet. The Radio Security Service was headquartered at Arkley View, about 2 miles north of Barnet.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

2 main rx and 2 main tx were certainly _not_ overkill.....just sensible....


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

Troppo said:


> 2 main rx and 2 main tx were certainly _not_ overkill.....just sensible....


Agreed. It eases the R/O's work and its sensible in avoiding possible delay due equipment downtime however short. A good decision (Applause)


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

These days, I hear that all communications equipment is duplicated and ships are not supposed to sail without it all working. I bet that happens!

John T


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

They can sail without the duplicated equipment working, but it must be fixed by the next port.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Troppo said:


> They can sail without the duplicated equipment working, but it must be fixed by the next port.


Who will fix it en route to the next port? Doesn't sound like the original intent of GMDSS to me!

John T


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## Naytikos (Oct 20, 2008)

Posted by R651400
_



Though I accept as a possibility I have never heard of any ship anywhere being delayed due to radio/radar equipment failure

Click to expand...

_Perhaps not quite what you meant, but one of the bulk carriers mentioned in my first post was delayed in Newcastle NSW by an overly diligent radio inspector doing a spot check (as the Aussies and S. Africans were prone to do).
This particular official took exception to the normal Crusader/R408 desens system where a small internal relay would disconnect the aerial input within the receiver when the key was pressed. Of course this produced a tremendous racket from the loudspeaker, but it was the standard MIMCo way of doing it. 
After a heated discussion the official was asked to indicate the paragraph in whatever regulations he was following which specified the approved method of desens.
Of course, he didn't have a copy with him and in the time it took for him to return to his office to find one the ship sailed.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

R651400 said:


> Though I accept as a possibility I have never heard of any ship anywhere being delayed due to radio/radar equipment failure and I'd like to see any forum R/O admit to ever being in this situation.
> I cannot vouch for radio companies but I'm pretty certain if this happened direct employ or freelance same R/O would be out on his posterior next port of call.
> An entirely different scenario, I have known one ship held up in Hamburg without a R/O and my regret to this day was not taken it on when I had the opportunity.


I was on a ship in Tasmania when a shore crane collected the DF loops and we weren't permitted to sail until they were replaced. A complete joke really because there was nowhere to calibrate the DF until we were well on the way to the next port. I didn't get the sack and neither did the crane driver.

I worked for a few shipping companies and don't ever recall holding a ship up for a maintenance issue, but they didn't expect miracles. McGyver might be able to make a klystron out of a ball of string and a lump of chewy, but Icertainly couldn't.

I did join a couple of ships that had no RO, but, unfortunately, I didn't know about either until I got there.

John T


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

R651400 said:


> Though I accept as a possibility I have never heard of any ship anywhere being delayed due to radio/radar equipment failure and I'd like to see any forum R/O admit to ever being in this situation.



Ha ha ha!

When I was a radio surveyor, I personally detained at least half a dozen ships with inoperative radio equipment, and the radio surveyors who worked for me regularly did the same.

I'm not talking about esoteric supposed "faults" like Crusader/R408 desens system, either.... (LOL)

Gross faults like emtx u/s, emrx u/s, aa u/s, akd u/s, main antenna or em antenna corroded to the point of uselessness, feed through trunk rooted, batteries rooted (a favourite!)...AND some of these fine vessels had just passed a class society "radio survey"....

(EEK)


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Times have changed since we went to sea (perhaps more so since IMO got its act together in the 1970s and '80s).

Concerning radio surveyors: in the '90s and the early part of this century, MIMCo acted as the UK's radio surveyors and inspectors. In the case of British ships, if we found serious deficiencies against the British regulations at survey, we withheld the survey certificate until the problem was fixed. The ship could not sail without a valid certificate. Dispensations were given for minor problems, allowing for rectification at the next port and submission of evidence that the work had been carried out.

In the case of Port State inspections of foreign ships, radio stations found to have serious deficiencies against the IMO basic requirements (i.e. affecting their ability to send and receive distress alerts and/or communications) were reported to the nearest MCA office. There the decision was taken whether or not to detain the vessel until the fault was repaired. 

So for the past 15-20 years at least, while the UK radio surveyors themselves have not had the power to detain ships, the findings of their surveys and particularly their Port State inspections have resulted in the detention of many vessels.

Compliance with IMO standards for most vessels require that the ship has a working radar; for some classes of ships the requirement is for two working radars. Non-compliance with significant IMO requirements is an automatic justification for detention. Surveys of radars and other navaids were not carried out by the radio surveyors but by MCA's own surveyors, who had the power of detention.

Of course today all radio surveys on UK ships are carried out by surveyors employed by Class (effectively the ship's insurers) and not by the maritime authorities.


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## Tai Pan (Mar 24, 2006)

I did 8 years with Blue Funnel and I only ever had one fault, the decoupling condenser on the antenna of the oceanspan failed. The maintainace at Odyssey works was excellent so we only needed one main RX, although the Redifon stand by rx was good. I wont comment on P&O as tony will stab me with his sword next time we meet.


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## Tai Pan (Mar 24, 2006)

R651400 said:


> Overkill or perhaps a lack of confidence in their R/O's?
> Blue Funnel by comparison with their attitude towards radio plus infinite parsimony updated only when the regs changed or a radio inspection failure.
> Every Liberty Sam class Blue Funnel bought at the end of the war and there were at least five remained MF only during their entire Blue Funnel and Glen Line service.


yes but there was always an H/F Bluie handy to do its QSP.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

R651400 said:


> On full quotes above (which I rarely do) I was wondering if you and I were on the on the same maritime radio planet?
> Your sarcasm aside and looking at your kick off as 1980 just how many of the six ships multiplied by your subordinates' failures flew the Red Ensign?


I was a surveyor from 92-99 - during the introduction of the GMDSS and last gasp of W/T ships.

Most detentions were flag of convenience ships. However, quite a few had European R/Os....amazingly....


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Just back from a twilight walk...funny how one's brain wanders.

We did _indeed_ detain a certain boat flying the red duster...

The most famous of them all....the flagship of the British MN -* GBTT*.

She had converted to GMDSS, using that awful STC Senator junk. 

The interlock on the GMDSS HF transceiver PA cabinet was u/s, so some bright spark had pulled the interlock out into the servicing position. So the PA door was open....on the bridge..... (EEK)

We didn't _technically_ detain her, but it was made plain, in no uncertain terms, that it would be in their best interests to replace the interlock before sailing....shame to delay all those passengers, Captain....

(Jester)

My opposite number in MCA and I thought it was a great joke when we met in London at IMO some time later....he had _no love_ for Cunard...who (as I said earlier) were pushing him very hard to get rid of R/Os.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Maybe they got rid of the one who was there then. I bet he went Troppo!

John T


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Ha! Yes...


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

"he had no love for Cunard"

A little worrying for a civil servant.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

sparkie2182 said:


> "he had no love for Cunard"
> 
> A little worrying for a civil servant.



Oh, he is a consummate professional - he treated all shipping companies fairly. 

He left that job 10 or more years ago...so it is academic now, really.


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## Tai Pan (Mar 24, 2006)

R651400 said:


> On the contrary Tai Pan this particular voyage I remember most of my QSP RQ's Med thru Indian Ocean were snatched up by either GTZX or GZWF.
> Even over Christmas with a Chinese crew there was little or no personal HF tfc and in Far East waters MF was a doddle excepting one occasion when I was helped out by a P&O Strath I think whose call was GDDT.
> The only ship I've ever been on where the Old Man, Jock Chapman, had his own telegraphic address. Annchap Glasgow!


Sorry about that, never did sail on one, but remember doing many QSP especially out Java way. However I did 6 months at Odyssey works with Jim Shuttleworth and Van der Meer when I was leaving . The first job I was sent on was to a Sam ship that had been laid up for a while. Task was to clean up the radio room and check the equipment, used mountains of Brasso. (Thumb)


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Tai Pan said:


> Sorry about that, never did sail on one, but remember doing many QSP especially out Java way. However I did 6 months at Odyssey works with Jim Shuttleworth and Van der Meer when I was leaving . The first job I was sent on was to a Sam ship that had been laid up for a while. Task was to clean up the radio room and check the equipment, used mountains of Brasso. (Thumb)


Brasso was murder on aerial de-coupling condensers. Did you spoil your 
record?

John T.


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## Tai Pan (Mar 24, 2006)

trotterdotpom said:


> Brasso was murder on aerial de-coupling condensers. Did you spoil your
> record?
> 
> John T.


That solves the problem I had. 
The radio room really required steam cleaning and Mr Muscle, but they were pleased with the result


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

R651400 said:


> Troppo thanks for your reply. For R/O manned vessels the list of failures in your #49 is truly amazing.
> I take it by rooted you are talking neo-aboriginal vernacular and not a typo?
> Both freelance companies I sailed with had a preference to UK certificated R/O's and my last even though all his ships were Greek flag and therefore required to carry Greek R/O's, Marchessini would hear nothing of it, excepting in my time there was one FCC qualified American.
> Story has it a replacement Greek R/O joined one of Marchessini's ships somewhere in the East Med en route to the USA and when the ship got to Gibraltar he was dumped tout de suite.



Ha ha!

Yes mate - "rooted" is Australian vernacular for utterly unserviceable....

(Jester)

Without wishing to urinate in anyone's pocket, UK R/O training was world class. Aussie training wasn't bad, but not UK standard....


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