# S.S. United States reportedly for sale



## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

According to one of her preservation advocacy groups, NCL has listed the S.S. United States for sale. Anymore information is welcome. Their press release: http://ssunitedstatesconservancy.org/SSUSCPressRelease021009FINAL.pdf


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## jasmacpm (Apr 22, 2008)

Now, if you'd said 'the United States' up for sale, I would have believed that! 

Jimmy.


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## Cutsplice (May 23, 2008)

I sure hope she is preserved, we owe her at least that much respect.


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## kewl dude (Jun 1, 2008)

Not much to preserve. Awhile ago she was towed somewhere to have all the asbestos removed. Doing so they also removed ALL interior screen bulkheads, cabins, furniture and fixtures. All she is a shell with eight oil burning boilers and four geared steam turbines and four shafts.

Greg Hayden


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## billyboy (Jul 6, 2005)

And rumor has it that the turbines are well clapped out through pushing her along at 40+ knots.
Shame. she was certainly one of the best looking ships of her time. I have a fond memory of watching her overtake us in the Solent back around 1962


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

Actually, there's still alot of bulkhead framing, and as near as I know, the cabin bulkhead material (sheetrock eqiv.) was all full of asbestos, so removal of it probably would have been inevitable for any public use anyway. According to an employee of one of her advocacy groups, who has been aboard fairly recently, the locations of cabins, staterooms, etc, are still quite distinguishable. And given money, a gradual restoration of interiors (over years) could fix the problem. The simplicity of her decoration should make that fairly simple.

As for her being "...eight oil burning boilers and four geared steam turbines and four shafts.", let's remember that her machinery is what made her so special. 

Also, according to one of her advocacy groups I spoke to yesterday, she was hauled out and her bottom was re-painted in the mid 1990's, there's a ship at the Suisun Bay Reserve Fleet (http://www.pmars.imsg.com/detail.asp?Ship=1812 ) that hasn't been hauled out since Korea!

Sorry to say, I think it was terrible the way they gutted Queen Mary's machinery, but I think you would all agree that restoration of United States's simple interiors and furnishings would be more affordable than replication of Queen Mary's machinery.


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## Chris Isaac (Jul 29, 2006)

But why would you want to do it?
The United States is for most of us a memory of a fine vessel hurtling back and forth across the Atlantic at tremendous speed, not an exhibition of 1950's american furniture. That is all she will be if restored as you suggest.
Take her out to the middle of the Atlantic, let her go down with dignity and let us all remember her as she was in her heyday.
In today's economic climate restoration is NOT going to happen..... stop dreaming and let her die!


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## duquesa (Aug 31, 2006)

*S.S United States*

Spot on Chris and the same goes for the rest. Their time has come.


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## Cutsplice (May 23, 2008)

We have differing opinions here, maybe us old seadogs should be scuttled, perish the thought. Ships to me were almost human, I loved them ,some nearly broke my heart others certainly took a liking to me.
I understand the SS United States was never delayed due to mechanical problems, that being so her turbines must have passed the ultimate test.
Give the Old Lady a makeover, use the bonuses thats earmarked for failed bankers etc as funds.


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## NicoRos (Aug 24, 2008)

If restoration of a reasonably well maintained ship like ss Rotterdam costs over 200 million euro, one can only imagine the price tag of the Big U. It wouldn't surprise me if the Rotterdam would lead a housing corporation to bankruptcy (she's still not open to visitors), so builiding a new ss United States from scratch in China would be more economical. Al least, I got mine (1:200 hand made model) for US 2500,00.


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

Chris Isaac said:


> But why would you want to do it?
> The United States is for most of us a memory of a fine vessel hurtling back and forth across the Atlantic at tremendous speed, not an exhibition of 1950's american furniture. That is all she will be if restored as you suggest.
> Take her out to the middle of the Atlantic, let her go down with dignity and let us all remember her as she was in her heyday.
> In today's economic climate restoration is NOT going to happen..... stop dreaming and let her die!


I, having been born the day after christmas 1975, don't remember her in her heyday. And no offense, but further, people who can_ will_ just keep getting fewer. Pieces of history are probably more educational to the people who _can't_ remember them. As fleeting as our time on earth is, it would be folly to believe that historic objects are preserved for posterity for the exclusive, or even primary, benefit of those who originally remember them.

She is and would be far more than an expression of 1950's furniture, even if she became a floating museum and/or hotel and never left the dock. I think many people have enjoyed the Cutty Sark over the years, and would probably be greatful that some late 19th century shellback, who probably said the same thing, wasn't listened to.


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

duquesa said:


> Spot on Chris and the same goes for the rest. Their time has come.


So would you also have the HMS Warrior, Victory, USS Constitution and all the others scrapped? Hasn't their time come as well?

I fail to understand the logic, that since she isn't what she was, she should be destroyed: "...Take her out to the middle of the Atlantic, let her go down with dignity and let us all remember her as she was in her heyday..."

A bit selfish, isn't it?

The pyramids of Egypt aren't what they used to be: "...most pyramids were faced with polished, highly reflective white limestone, in order to give them a brilliant appearance when viewed from a distance..." Since they're not what they used to be, shouldn't we just knock them down? What about the great paintings, hasn't exposure to sunlight, oxidation, etc. faded their colors over the centuries, so shouldn't we now make a bonfire of the Louvre?

Independence Hall in Philadelphia was probably a more interesting place when Ben Franklin & co. were actually present and making world history. But I don't believe the building should be demolished on account of the fact that nothing so interesting is going on there today. 

Nor have I ever heard it forwarded that a lack of fulfillment of original purpose was a rationale for the demolition of historic buildings, so why should it apply to historic ships?
Ships are more expensive than buildings to maintain, and accordingly, money will decide that, and that is proper, allowing for obeyance of the laws, etc.

Finally, I want to address this evident belief that it is somehow a violation of some law or moral code of some sort to prevent the scrapping of ships. I believe it is fair to say that most ships are scrapped because: 

1. The owners have no further use for them, and neither does anyone else.
2. Economic gain, and often substanital gain, can be had by harvesting the residual (scrap) value of the steel itself. I don't believe this worked so well in the case of wooden ships, so accordingly, the scrapping industry wasn't what it is now. 

If someone _does_ have another use for the object, and wants to spend their money that way, it would be immoral, and quite possibly illegal, to interfere. The same has always been true of bulidings, among other things, for example. In a private effort, I'd contribute money, and it would be my place, and _not_ anyone else's, to decide that. And as for public money, we all know how that's decided. 

Attaching various philosophical ideas to all of it is therefore really rather impertinent. Elsewhere on this site, someone chastised us that saving ships is folly because ships aren't human (when did an historic building, or any other, have to be human to be worth saving?) and, amazingly, went on to justify scrapping because it was wrong to deprive something, _living or not_, it's intended purpose! How? Are you going to hurt the inanimate object's feelings?

So you can personify an inanimate object, to justify it's destruction, but without asking it first?


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

NicoRos said:


> If restoration of a reasonably well maintained ship like ss Rotterdam costs over 200 million euro, one can only imagine the price tag of the Big U. It wouldn't surprise me if the Rotterdam would lead a housing corporation to bankruptcy (she's still not open to visitors), so builiding a new ss United States from scratch in China would be more economical. Al least, I got mine (1:200 hand made model) for US 2500,00.


Well, it sounds like someone over there needs to ask the folks taking care of the Queen Mary how they managed it. For 42 years and counting.

The massive WWII battleship USS North Carolina was saved by donations raised by school children:
http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/ref/nchistory/jun2007/school.html


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## ssr481 (Feb 2, 2008)

*SS UNITED STATES - Maiden voyage*



billyboy said:


> ...her overtake us in the Solent back around 1962


Funny you should mention her speed.. in 1952, whilst on a picket mission, the then radar picket submarine USS REQUIN (SSR-481) was in the Atlantic and her air control center picked up a fast moving surface contact. Stationed about 10 miles away (I think) from a US aircraft carrier group, REQUIN picked up the contact.. exchanged signals and found it was the SS UNITED STATES on her speed trials... my source, when I asked what speed, wouldn't tell me.. said it was, as far as he knew..still classified.


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## cmakin (Apr 20, 2007)

jasmacpm said:


> Now, if you'd said 'the United States' up for sale, I would have believed that!
> 
> Jimmy.


It has already been purchased.


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## John Callon (Dec 20, 2008)

*United States*

Purchased by whome.
John C.


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

Links to some recent news articles:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/technology_news/4304181.html

http://www.charleston.net/news/2009/feb/18/ship_lovers_fear_fabled_liner_lost72017/

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2009/02/15/news/local/14428056.txt


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## capnfab (Jan 9, 2009)

Being a tugboat kind of guy, I never really got into liners too much. I preferred the rough & tumble, contact sport of the maritime biz, tugboating.

Anyway, I developed an interest in the Big U after seeing her sitting at Norfolk International Terminals on one of my first trips as a tug deckhand in the early 80's.

To me, that ship looked as though she was at sea doing 30 knots even when moored alongside.

Anyway, many years later after I had gotten my ticket to sail as tug skipper and working for McAllister Towing of Philadelphia, I was assigned to head down to the Delaware Capes with the tug "Eric McAllister" and meet the "United States". This was in the summer of 1996 I believe.

She was at the end of the tow cable of the "Smit New York" and heading up the Delaware Bay & River for a layberth at Packer Avenue Marine Terminal after a 40 day tow from Russia.

Tug "Eric" rendezvouxed with 3 other McAllister tugs for the slow escort upriver. I was made fast to her starboard quarter to assist with steering, propulsion and braking.

During the course of the tow overnight, we met several tugs & tows outbound for sea. Much oil is transported out of the Delaware by tugs and barges homeported out of New York and crewed by tug crewmen from New York as well.

Listening in on the pilots talking with the outbound tows, a few of the veteran NY tug skippers remarked on seeing her again after so many years.

I distinctly remember one captain of a Bouchard tug saying, "She's a little worse for wear but, home." I wrote this down in my tug's logbook at the end of the day...

The next morning passing by Paulsboro, New Jersey, an American flagged tanker, one of the former Gulf Oil tankers built at Beth Steel's Sparrows Point yard was alongside at a petroleum & chemical terminal.

It seemed as her entire crew, from the Master & mates on the starboard wing to the steward's department gang manning the rails at the after house, cheered and waved as we passed slowly by.

3 long, mournful blasts sounded from her whistle in the stack...enough to choke up the saltiest of the saltiest if you ask me...a moment in my career I will never forget.

We soon got her alongside and made fast, the tugs and pilots dismissed and headed back to our tie up station across the river.

I shot several rolls of film and I have every intention of posting them here soon if I can ever figure out how to resize them below the 500mb limit...

But...if anyone would like an image sent to them in a large format, drop me a line at: Email deleted as per site rules, please use PM for initial contact - Steve W mod team and I will be happy to send you some.

Hope you enjoyed my little recitation of another day at work.


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## Chris Isaac (Jul 29, 2006)

needadditionalinformation said:


> A bit selfish, isn't it?


Probably it is selfish, but it is my opinion and as such is bound by its nature to be selfish!

Examples you give such as the Pyramids are specious, they have been there since time immemorial and have not required the huge rebuilding costs.

The other thing I would ask is....if the United States were restored, who would visit it? We would, plus tourists visiting whatever tourist attraction was on board. But could they ever recapture the essence of this erstwhile wonderful vessel.... I doubt it.


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## David Wilcockson (Jul 10, 2005)

ssr481
Her speed topped out somewhere in the region of 42 knots I read some time back, but stand to be corrected on that.
Cheers,
David


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

Chris Isaac said:


> Probably it is selfish, but it is my opinion and as such is bound by its nature to be selfish!
> 
> Examples you give such as the Pyramids are specious, they have been there since time immemorial and have not required the huge rebuilding costs.
> 
> The other thing I would ask is....if the United States were restored, who would visit it? We would, plus tourists visiting whatever tourist attraction was on board. But could they ever recapture the essence of this erstwhile wonderful vessel.... I doubt it.


The brilliance of everything fades in time, which is why there is nothing "specious" about my analogy, and that is why your arguement that the fading of former glory necessitates destruction of something is nonsense. By this theory, everyone over 30 or so should be committing suicide!

Please re-read the part of my article that explains the simple and inescapable economic and legal factors that actually decide these matters. _Your_ money won't be paying for any of this.

As for the selfish nature of your opinion, they never _need_ be so. You are not the only person on earth with rights and prerogatives. Please recall that deciding how other people get to spend their money whether they like it or not, isn't your place.

If you prefer to remember her as she was, no one will require you to patronize her preservation.


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## Bruce Carson (Jun 14, 2005)

Captain, thanks for your reminiscences--truly a pleasure to read.

Bruce


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

In addition to being on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places, according to one source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_United_States), she still holds the Blue Riband for the fastest Westbound crossing time. 

Also, "...The United States usually operated on six of the eight boilers. The multiple number of machinery spaces, namely, two boiler, two propulsion machinery and two auxiliary rooms, utilized a crew of 49 licensed engineers, with 13 standing watch at any one time. This exceeds the number required by the Coast Guard, but undoubtedly was a major factor in not having any unscheduled downtime..." SNAME TRANSACTIONS, Vol.84, pg 179

Was anything like thirteen licensed engineers on watch at once common for large passenger ships like these, i.e., Queen Mary, etc.?


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## cmakin (Apr 20, 2007)

John Callon said:


> Purchased by whome.
> John C.


The one who raised US$750,000,000.00


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## cmakin (Apr 20, 2007)

needadditionalinformation said:


> In addition to being on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places, according to one source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_United_States), she still holds the Blue Riband for the fastest Westbound crossing time.
> 
> Also, "...The United States usually operated on six of the eight boilers. The multiple number of machinery spaces, namely, two boiler, two propulsion machinery and two auxiliary rooms, utilized a crew of 49 licensed engineers, with 13 standing watch at any one time. This exceeds the number required by the Coast Guard, but undoubtedly was a major factor in not having any unscheduled downtime..." SNAME TRANSACTIONS, Vol.84, pg 179
> 
> Was anything like thirteen licensed engineers on watch at once common for large passenger ships like these, i.e., Queen Mary, etc.?



I don't know how they are run now, but the SL-7's had two licensed engineers on every watch. Two "day thirds" and a first on day work, too. When I sailed on the MacLean there was certainly plenty to do (1n 1981).


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## John Callon (Dec 20, 2008)

Who raised $750,000,000.00. This is not rocket science - which Company, Consortium or whatever. Or are you taking the p...


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

I think we have a joke on top of a joke here. 

If the_ S.S._ United States is at issue, her acquisition should be cheap. 

The nation, however looks like about a $7,500,000,000,000 proposition.


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## John Callon (Dec 20, 2008)

I guess you could be right there Bill. I am going over to New York in 3 weeks time so will check out the situation.
John.


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## capnfab (Jan 9, 2009)

*Time is running out...*

From a friend's blog here in the States. 

http://tugster.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/mystery-no-more-1/

Perhaps, it is time to let her go.


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## kewl dude (Jun 1, 2008)

Let her go. Once she was gutted she was useless. Replicating that today is just not justified or affordable. Eons ago all the ships both my Dad and I sailed were scrapped except the Col James M Schoonmaker:

http://www.dotoledo.org/Explore-Tol...es-S.S.-Col.-James-M.-Schoonmaker-Museum-Ship

http://tinyurl.com/mqobbc2

Now a Toledo Ohio museum ship that too is having a rough patch. She was moved a few years ago to a new under construction museum. 

Quote

The National Museum of the Great Lakes will open in April 2014.

Visit the SS Col. James M. Schoonmaker Museum Ship, once the largest freighter on the Great Lakes will be open for special events and special tours in 2014. 

Unquote

Greg Hayden


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