# Noon day sights



## Geoff Gower

Anybody remember the process of working out noon sight. Foolishly never saved my old sight books!


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## Cutsplice

Got all my sight books, have not looked at any of them for years, I still got the principles of working them in the grey cells, or at least I think I have. Will have a look at my books over the weekend, and check how much I have forgotten.


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## Geoff Gower

wow ! that's great-was not prepared for such a swift answer. I bet a few memories will come flooding back when you start looking through them !! I wish I had saved mine now= Cheers- Geoff


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## 8575

Geoff, my memory is struggling to comprehend what I'm looking at when I dug out my archive of sights. If I can figure out how to upload a scan of one example I kept it may help prompt your own grey matter into navigation mode!


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## woodend

I was never neat enough to keep my sight books! Worked on the principal get it on the chart A.S.A.P. However I do have copies of Burtons and Nories which get looked at......occasionally. Would you like a copy of the relevant pages?


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## Hugh Ferguson

Noon Derby we called it:-
That's the Owner's son in _black_ shoes!!!

Glenroy sight book 1953.


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## hamishb

Hugh Ferguson said:


> Noon Derby we called it:-
> That's the Owner's son in _black_ shoes!!!
> 
> Glenroy sight book 1953.


Correct me if I am wrong but there appears to be 2 pairs of black shoes visible
Regards
Hamish


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## Julian Calvin

Have my record of noon and star sights but what do all those numbers mean and where did they come from????
Must dig out my Nories again.


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## Tony Shaw

When I first went to sea as third mate and when doing the morning sight followed by the noon 'fix' my sight book was a little like a Janet and John book with each line of calculations prefixed by dep,d.lat,etc. I left the sea only to return several years later. Am I glad that I kept my sight books and I was able to understand straight away on my 'next' first day at sea what I was actually doing. I actually had my "answers" well before the second mate, but that was more to do with him not trusting a calculator. I had bought my first one, a simple one (no trig.calcs on) ,in Copenhagen costing me about £30. Now you can get them 10 a penny !!!


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## Geoff Gower

woodend said:


> I was never neat enough to keep my sight books! Worked on the principal get it on the chart A.S.A.P. However I do have copies of Burtons and Nories which get looked at......occasionally. Would you like a copy of the relevant pages?


Hi and thanks-- I have the books, it is just my memory that's forgotten the procedure to work out. the sights. Keep navigating life !


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## Geoff Gower

Tony Shaw said:


> When I first went to sea as third mate and when doing the morning sight followed by the noon 'fix' my sight book was a little like a Janet and John book with each line of calculations prefixed by dep,d.lat,etc. I left the sea only to return several years later. Am I glad that I kept my sight books and I was able to understand straight away on my 'next' first day at sea what I was actually doing. I actually had my "answers" well before the second mate, but that was more to do with him not trusting a calculator. I had bought my first one, a simple one (no trig.calcs on) ,in Copenhagen costing me about £30. Now you can get them 10 a penny !!!


Sounds like mine!. Taught to do them that way by King Teddies and did it till my coming shoreside in 1962


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## Geoff Gower

Julian Calvin said:


> Have my record of noon and star sights but what do all those numbers mean and where did they come from????
> Must dig out my Nories again.


They represent, I think, what the "sat nav" does these days. Nories was a master-piece-- to add you refer and add, to divide you refer and deduct- wonderous stuff of old!


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## Geoff Gower

Hugh Ferguson said:


> Noon Derby we called it:-
> That's the Owner's son in _black_ shoes!!!
> 
> Glenroy sight book 1953.


Heathen !! black shoes with "whites" !!! no, no, NO. Bet the Old Man had a word to say.


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## Hugh Ferguson

Geoff Gower said:


> Heathen !! black shoes with "whites" !!! no, no, NO. Bet the Old Man had a word to say.


 What, what, to the owner's son?? The other guy with black shoes was the 2nd mate; Arnold was his name I believe. The big chap was an Aussie, Noel Joyce. Captain's name escapes me at the moment-well it was 67 years ago aboard the maiden voyage Stentor. 
She had been up to Kure and our half-deck ash tray was a bit of molten glass somebody had picked up in the ruins of Hiroshima!


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## Geoff Gower

*Glen line & Blue funnel*



Hugh Ferguson said:


> Geoff Gower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heathen !! black shoes with "whites" !!! no, no, NO. Bet the Old Man had a word to say.
> 
> 
> 
> What, what, to the owner's son?? The other guy with black shoes was the 2nd mate; Arnold was his name I believe. The big chap was an Aussie, Noel Joyce. Captain's name escapes me at the moment-well it was 67 years ago aboard the maiden voyage Stentor.
> She had been up to Kure and our half-deck ash tray was a bit of molten glass somebody had picked up in the ruins of Hiroshima!
Click to expand...

I take it that you were a good Company man, did you ever come across a guy Ian Johnson who spent his life with Blue/Glen before finally moving to OCL ?


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## Stephen J. Card

As 2/M always ruled a neat sight book.... day after day. Finally as Mate.. then the day came when for star sights. On my first leave I designed my own Star Sight Form... professionally printed on tear off pages in pads of 50. Still have some pads left!

So... was an easy form and using the NC-77. Using for seven stars.


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## trotterdotpom

You lads loved those stars, didn't you? I sailed with a Mate called Kent (surname) and he named his son "Rigel". Doomed him to a lifetime of answering the question: "Is that with an "n" or a "r", Nigel?"

John T


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## 8575

Stephen J. Card said:


> As 2/M always ruled a neat sight book.... day after day. Finally as Mate.. then the day came when for star sights. On my first leave I designed my own Star Sight Form... professionally printed on tear off pages in pads of 50. Still have some pads left!
> 
> So... was an easy form and using the NC-77. Using for seven stars.


I did something very similar when 2nd mate for a.m. and noon (running copies off from a hand-cranked duplicating machine [Banda or Roneo?] from a wax original) but got castigated by one master who said the sight book may be required by a court as evidence should there be a mishap with the vessel. Personally I thought one could keep the sheets after use for as long as required for the same purpose but the master of all he surveys had spoken so I wasn't about to argue; that sort of thing came later when I was mate! I certainly don't recall ever keeping sight books for eternity either.


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## Stephen J. Card

You should have given a brand new Brown & Ferguson Sight Book and given it to the OM and ask to rule the forms out for yourself and the 3rd Mate also! ;-)

Surely the sights might have been used in an inquest, but on a sight book, loose paper or whatever would have been just good.


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## China hand

trotterdotpom said:


> You lads loved those stars, didn't you? I sailed with a Mate called Kent (surname) and he named his son "Rigel". Doomed him to a lifetime of answering the question: "Is that with an "n" or a "r", Nigel?"
> 
> John T


Ja, but it was good, trying to get a good 7 star job without that rogue p/l which always came just outside the "cocked hat". I was Mate for oinks (68~82) and never lost the enjoyment of stars.


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## 8575

Stephen J. Card said:


> You should have given a brand new Brown & Ferguson Sight Book and given it to the OM and ask to rule the forms out for yourself and the 3rd Mate also! ;-)
> 
> Surely the sights might have been used in an inquest, but on a sight book, loose paper or whatever would have been just good.


Never had Brown Son & Ferguson books in Bank Line - just a plain book which you drew up yourself. Deck Log Books were modelled on the Brown type though - the name "Clutha" type rings a bell!


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## Duncan112

All still available Waighty - exactly right on "Clutha" http://www.skipper.co.uk/catalogue/stationery/page/3


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## Barrie Youde

THE MATHS MASTER

So poor was I at school at maths, with GCE approaching,
My father asked, “D’you think that you might benefit from coaching”?
“Yes, I think I would,” I said, as I could clearly see,
(And Father could as well, of course,) that I was going to sea.

A neighbour was a genius: his name was Bill Caruth,
A mathematics teacher (then retired); the simple truth.
He took me in and sat me down at green card-table baize.
He asked “What is your problem? These are most important days?”

I said I did not know; and that was why I’d come to see him.
He smiled. He clearly knew why parents were prepared to fee him.
“Do this. Do that. Now do another.” Thus, he sounded out,
The possibilities for progress, hopelessness or doubt.

“Your algebra is quite ok. Your geometry and trig.
Now, I can see your problem. It is simple: and not big!
You’re careless with arithmetic! You’re lazy, idle, slack!
I’ll get you up to speed and duly on the proper track.”

And so he did, by long-division, long multiplication;
Kindly, with encouragement; without humiliation.
He honed my hopeless errors ‘til they were no longer made,
‘Til even I could see that I, (perhaps,) might make the grade.

At school my mathematics Master (dear old Townie Brown)
Was puzzled and delighted as he looked me up and down.
“Commendable in effort”, Townie wrote on my report,
“With consequent result”. (He was a gentleman and sport.)

Midsummer came and GCE. The moment, then, of truth.
How much was I reliant on the skill of Bill Caruth?
The papers came and went in that examination hall.
I slogged it through. I knew that I had given it my all.

Six weeks later came results: and back to school to hear:
Said Townie Brown, “Your paper was the best result this year!”
And still I lacked the guts to tell the simple honest truth:
That the credit wasn’t Townie’s. No. It went to Bill Caruth. 

BY 
23.04.2014

I still have my sight-books from my own short deep-sea career. They are mainly a mess, to start with. I still recall the kindness of Peter Broomfield (otherwise an apparently heartless bastard), however, on my third trip in Memnon Jun/October 1960. At noon one day, my sight put the ship within signalling distance (and perhaps even within hailing distance) of his. Broomfield, the Mate, said, "You're getting the hang of this, aren't you?" A little kindness goes a long way.


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## gadgee

Julian Calvin said:


> Have my record of noon and star sights but what do all those numbers mean and where did they come from????
> Must dig out my Nories again.


Would love to be able to do it all again, really enjoyed celestial navigation but Julian echoes my sentiments!


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## Stephen J. Card

Nope. No Brown Son & Ferguson sight books on any other ship I've ever seen! Up from second mates I lived just up from Darnley St where Brown's 'factory' was located. Bought my own sight books from them.

Bought a few other text books direct from them also. Found them they would sell 'damaged' books for pennies.... damaged corner or perhaps the dust jacket torn... or a scuffed mark. Good enough for me.

All Denholm ships kept a 'technical library' in the chart room... Brown Son & Ferguson supply.


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## madbob

Sight books. Still got them. Found in the loft a couple of years ago. Mice hadn't chewed these for some reason. Memoirs of many years of global voyaging, although some Shipmasters I have sailed with would describe it more as "exploration".


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## slick

All,
Like all others here, I too am proud of my handiwork there are a couple of sight books in my book case which are reminisced over in moments of nostalgia.
I am glad I kept them it reminds me that at one time I wasn't too bad at Maths and had a reasonable grasp of Spherical Trigonometry.
Five star fix nothing quite like it except Venus on the meridian.

Yours aye,


slick


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## Mikey Hall

Anyone recall Baker Position Line Charts?


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## slick

Mikey Hall,
Yes, I used them regularly, another "nugget" in the plethora of aids.

Yours aye,

slick


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## Robert Bush

Many years (61) ago was 3rd and then 2nd Mate on a cable repair ship. As cable down time was very expensive we had to be accurate with our navigation. Four mates with Marc St. Hilaire and Burtons or Norries took stars and plotted them on perspex allowing for the runs between sights. Close in we used horizontal sextant angles and even an ancient optical range finder as the ship was thirty years old.

Regarding Brown, Son and Ferguson. Have pleasant memories of them and the Nautical Magazine a truly family concern. The last Brown editor, Richard was upset that his uncle sold the mag to Sea Breezes. I bought several of their pubs including H. J. Pursey's construction and stability and even The Malim Sahib's Hindustani and How to build a canoe.

The old Almanac was always a good read with international contributors. Greek owners were very faithful users up until a few years ago. Loved the old distance tables.


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## James_C

Andrew Weirs still buy Browns Almanac for their ships, in addition to the HMNAO version. Lots of weird and wonderful stuff in it, I always enjoy showing our cadets the paper on Geodesic distances v Great Circle by a 'Captain Doctor' - it normally makes their heads spin!


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## Steve Davis

Have a look on YouTube with this link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWGOlpj4YwE


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## Uricanejack

I posted this on a sailing forum some time ago
I'm sure you guys know all about secants and haversines

Longitude by Chronometer

Hav LHA =(Hav ZX- Hav(lat Dif Dec) )sec Lat sec Dec

Where 
ZX = Zenith Distance.
Sec= Secant. 

You might not have head of a Secant. 
A secant is a sine for dummies. Back in the day cleaver people like actual mathematicians’ figured out the average professional seaman was really not very good at math probably having left school at 14.

So the invented secants which are 1/ sine the advantage of which is us dummies don’t have to do any division. Multiplying by a secant is the same as dividing by a sine. 

There are also cosecants and cotangents for the same reason. 

You might not have heard of a haversin either.

Half a versin. Which is of course as clear as mud.

A versin is 1 minus sine.

A haversin sine = (1 - sine)/2

The old long hand logarithm method of figuring out spherical trigonometry problems are based on the haversin formula. 
The advantage of which it is always positive again trigonometry for dummies. It was all , so we did not have to figure out if we should add or subtract multiply or divide.

It was all look just it up and add it up. 

Most of the template is much the same as for other methods of calculating a sight.
Just the order is a bit different.

I found this template in an old note book. In reality I would abbreviate it a bit but I left the extras in there things like date. Looking back at one of my old sight books where I left the date out. Is not very helpful.
Local time or LMT would normally be just part of my rough prep work. On the back page. 

















Date 
Dr Lat.
Dr Longitude

Local Time
Longitude
Approximate GMT

Chronometer
Error
Correct GMT

Declination
d correction
Declination 

DR Latitude
Declination
Lat Diff Dec

GHA
Increment
GHA

Sextant Altitude
Index Error
Observed Altitude
Dip
Apparent Altitude
Total Correction
True Altitude
90- True Alt
True Zenith Distance.

Natural haversin TZD
Natural haversin Lat Diff Dec.
Natural haversine

Log haversine
Log Secant Latitude
Log Secant Declination
Log haversine LHA
LHA

LHA
GHA
Observed Longitude

A Correction
B Correction
C Correction
True Azimuth.
Position line


A Few notes.

If Sun is in the East use the Bottom of the page in the tables to determine LHA
If Sun is in the West use the top of the page in the tables to determine the LHA 

Although I refer to the longitude as an observed longitude it is not your longitude.
What you have calculated from your observation of the altitude of the sun at an observed time is the longitude your position line crosses your DR Latitude.

To obtain an actual position or longitude you still have to do the Sun run to Noon which you can do to apparent noon. And plot on a plotting sheet. For apparent noon. 
The Cross with your position line and your observed latitude from apparent noon will give you your longitude.

Or you can run to 12 noon

At Apparent Noon or 12 Noon you can still use the same trick with the C correction to calculate your longitude instead of plotting.


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## Uricanejack

*Marc St Hillair*

This is from back in the day when I did everything long hand. Using Nories Tables. By have sine formula using logarithm tables and traverse tables to calculate runs for DR’s 

A Template for a Sun Sight run to Noon by Marc St Hiliar.
This template fit vertically into an A 4 hard note book. I would use the back page of the previous day for rough figuring and to figure out time of apparent noon. 

Most of the templates I have seen have each section laid out separately all over the page. Makes it easy to mark in an exam setting.
Back in the bad old pre satellite days most of us used a vertical column layout. Which has a few advantages. One of which was taking 3 sights in quick succession and working them out together using the same DR. 

I would start by figuring out a rough DR for Noon. From this determine the approximate time of apparent noon. Choose an approximate time to take am sight i.e. 2 hours before Noon whole numbers make the distance run easier. Sun preferably not to low i.e. less than 20 altitude. Lower the altitude the greater parallax and greater errors.
The total correction is an approximation and parallax varies with temperature.

The closer your azimuth is to 090 the better your noon cross and your longitude.

On a nice day, with a clear sky and a clear horizon I could be picky about time. 
On a nasty day I’d look for the Sun and horizon all watch and take what I could get.

Use DR Noon longitude to determine time of apparent noon. You can use equation of time and Longitude 
converted to time 

or my preferred method next less.
LHA Apparent Noon = 000 Deg 00 Min 
Add Longitude east positive west negative.
GHA of Sun at Apparent Noon.
From almanac take next less whole Hour GHA
Subtract from GHA at apparent Noon
Difference.
Enter increments with difference will give minutes and seconds after Whole hour.

GMT Hour minutes and seconds for apparent noon at DR 

I would pre-calculate my approximate apparent noon sextant angle far right column. 

By Nories tables using haversine formula and logarithms.

The advantage of the haversine formula and logarithms is everything is just simple arithmetic adding up no subtraction

Hopefully there are no misleading typos or other errors


Sight 1 Sight 2 Sight 3 


Chronometer. 
Error. 
GMT. 

GHA 
Inc 
GHA 
Long 
LHA 

Dec 
d cor 
Dec 
Lat 
Lat Dif Dec 

Sextant Alt 
Index E 
Observed Alt 
Dip 
App Alt 
Total Correction 
True Alt. 
90- Alt 
True ZD. 


Log hav sine LHA 
Log Cos Lat
Log Cos Dec
Log Have sine
Natural Havrsine
N Haversine Lat Diff Dec
Natural haversine TZD

True Zenith Distance.


Calculated Zenith Distance
True Zenith Distance 
Intercept.

A Correction
B Correction
C Correction
Azimuth

From this point you can get a plotting sheet 
Or continue with calculation.
I used to use traverse tables as fastest. 

DR Lat Long 
Intercept x Azimuth D Lat Dlong
Intercept Terminal Point Lat Long	

Use Traverse Tables again to run intercept terminal point to Noon. 

Next bit is optional do you want a position at Apparent Noon or 12 Noon? 
I would usually calculate a position for 12 Noon. 

If you want a position at apparent noon. Run DR to time of apparent Noon

I would run my DR to 12 Noon. This would require me to run my observed latitude taken at apparent noon to 12 Noon.

This next part could be ether. 

Intercept Terminal Point Lat Long
Run To Noon D Lat D Long
Noon DR Lat Long



This next bit might not make sense, but it works. Remember your intercept terminal point is just a position on your position line, 

Observed Noon Lat
Run to noon or not

Observed Noon Latitude. 
DR Noon latitude DR Noon Longitude.
Diff Lat

You can calculate the difference between your Noon Dr Longitude and the longitude your position line crosses your observed latitude using the C Correction.( The C Correction is the ratio of your position line) 

Difference Lat x C Cor.= D Long D Long
Noon Latitude Longitude


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## Harry Grainger

and so say all us !
Glad I was an engineer ! !


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## muldonaich

Good one Harry you always had a great sense of humour brgds kevin


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## borderreiver

All this brings back the good old days. Joined one ship with no nores no havesins. Only 90 degrees tables. This brought back class roomm memories to get the plus and minus in the right quantrant .


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## Mikeirwin

Waighty said:


> Never had Brown Son & Ferguson books in Bank Line - just a plain book which you drew up yourself. Deck Log Books were modelled on the Brown type though - the name "Clutha" type rings a bell!


I seem to recall "coates marine sight books" in Common Brothers.


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## Chris Field

I remember that on the "City of London" (1954-5) there was something of a ritual concerning the noon sight. The skipper (Capt.Jeffers) would insist that he, the second and third mates and at least one cadet were all up there for the event.
I don't know whose result was the accepted one...


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## dunsteaming

still have some of mine mainly voyage from calcutta to port of spain 79 days


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## Scelerat

Chris Field said:


> I remember that on the "City of London" (1954-5) there was something of a ritual concerning the noon sight. The skipper (Capt.Jeffers) would insist that he, the second and third mates and at least one cadet were all up there for the event.
> I don't know whose result was the accepted one...


But we can all guess!


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## Varley

You mean it's not the cocked hat that's king but one with scrambled egg?


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## Leratty

Oh such cynicism David


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