# Arcane family jailed throught the proceeds of crime act petition



## wbeedie

Ladies and Gents

The McBRIDES run the seiner Arcane and starred in the BBC series Trawlermen

Member Dunmore form trawlerphotos posted the following on that site

Charlie Mcbride Arcane An appeal to reason

I have recieved this E-mail from a friend in Kilkeel.

"My friend Charlie Mc Bride and his son Charles Mc Bride, owners of the Kilkeel based trawler ARCANE, which figured in the BBC series "Trawler men" have been jailed last Friday for a period of 3 months by Liverpool Crown Court because they could not raise the money from the banks to pay a fine of £350 000. Since Friday, Karen Mc Bride has no news from her husband and they are not allowed to communicate. She is left to manage the crew and vessel which is in Scotland on her own. This is how the fishermen are treated like criminals, and the press is not interested in fishermen stories. Can we organise a petition to Release the Fishermen from Prison. (We don't see bank manager going to prison!) "End of Message


I know in these hard times it is quiet literally every man for himself but this is too far. Could some of our UK Members please send emails etc to various MPs,MSPs, members of Assemblies and other people with clout setting out the stupidity not to mention cost of such an action in these times.

All the Best William Power

This is something I think most members of both sites would have a shared interest

I have opened a petition on the No10 website if you wish to sign it the link's here


http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/FishermenPOCA/

Thanks


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## AncientBrit

So! You gonna explain what proceeds of crime netted them a 350,000.00 fine? You dont get fined money like that for swearing in church.
Does seem that there may be two sides to this tale.


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## benjidog

AncientBrit has a good point!

If you want members of the site to support this cause, can you tell us what led up to this fine as many of us have not heard of the case.


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## wbeedie

Apparently catching 15,000,000 pounds worth of fish in a 10 month period,if you had watched the last series of Trawlermen then all would be known


Fishermen jailed over scam fine
fish
The men were convicted of landing illegal quotas

Two Kilkeel-based fishermen have been jailed for not paying a confiscation order over landing "black fish".

Charles Leslie McBride was jailed for two months and his son, Charles Hubert, for three at Liverpool Crown Court.

They were fined £370,000 after being convicted of landing illegal quotas of fish in 2007. They appeared in court for not paying the outstanding balance.

The men appeared in the BBC Scotland series Trawlermen, about the lives of fishermen in Peterhead.

The 2007 they, and another County Down fisherman - Leslie Clifford Girvan - were ordered to pay back more than £1m which they netted through the quota scam to the Assets Recovery Agency.

Charles Leslie McBride, 55, his 36-year-old son Charles Hubert McBride, both Cromlech Road, and Leslie Clifford Girvan, 65, of Rooney Road, had admitted several specimen charges in January 2007 of landing fish stocks in excess of their permitted quotas.

The three fishermen, and two Kilkeel-based fish-selling firms of which they were directors, had made more than £15m from the criminal conduct.

The quota prosecutions were brought by the Marine and Fisheries Agency after the detection of inaccurate fish landing declarations involving 12 fishing vessels, some of which were owned and controlled by the men from January to October 2003.


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## K urgess

The details are here -
http://www.mfa.gov.uk/news/press/071211.htm


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## 3762dazzer

*Fines*

The issue I have ladies and gents is that these men have falsified records and landed fish which was almost certainly already dead.
No one has been injured or had anything stolen, they have committed a victimless crime against what most in the industry would consider dubious scientific evidence.

The fines are therefore not commensurate to the crimes, and no one else in the EU seems to impose such punishments.

They are otherwise hard working men who have now been jailed, these places could have been reserved for people who are a danger to you and I and our loved ones(MAD) 

Having been fined and imprisoned the authorities are now perusing them using the Proceeds of Crime Act, they are an easy target with easily identified assets.

This statute law was enacted to seize the assets of career criminals who had amassed their wealth through criminality, not hard work.

No one suggests that these men do not deserve punishment, but it seems you can bring the country to its knees and get away with a golden handshake and fat pension the only price for that is an insincere apology(Cloud) 

Sign the petition if you wish, if you disagree that's fine this is a democracy after all (for now!!!)


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## dom

*dom*

arent all fish dead when their landed??


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## AncientBrit

"The three fishermen, and two Kilkeel-based fish-selling firms of which they were directors, had made more than £15m from the criminal conduct"
"Sign the petition if you wish, if you disagree that's fine this is a democracy after all (for now!!!)"
I dont remember the section where is says that in a democracy, you only obey the laws you agree with.


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## stathers

*Overvishing is not a victimless crime*

There are many Nova Scotia and Newfoundland fishermen now without jobs because the cod stocks of the Grand Banks were overfiished by so many off shore boats. So they do not deserve the support of other trawlermen that are trying to earn a living.


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## Frank P

Having read the MFA article I see that the men pleaded guilty to 33 offences (involving £15,000,000), so they probably committed more offences. I think that they were lucky to get away with only 3 months in jail.
Cheers Frank


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## Frank Holleran

The thing with these sort of activities, is that if they had not been caught they would still be doing it, the intention is deliberate...


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## mwebster56

AncientBrit said:


> "The three fishermen, and two Kilkeel-based fish-selling firms of which they were directors, had made more than £15m from the criminal conduct"
> "Sign the petition if you wish, if you disagree that's fine this is a democracy after all (for now!!!)"
> I dont remember the section where is says that in a democracy, you only obey the laws you agree with.


There isn't such a section, but the fact is that if Heath hadn't signed away these British Fishermens birthright, (to ingratiate himself with the Commissars in Brussels) these quotas wouldnt exist. Have you ever been to Spain and seen the locals eating baby hake that haven't even reached spawning age? where do you think that these fish come from? How many of the fishermen who catch these are prosecuted? 
The EU quota system means that if a trawlerman lands his net and it is full of dead fish of the 'wrong' type'they have to be thrown back to rot. You can bet your life that this is only rigouresly enforced here. This is the real scandal.


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## Fieldsy

3762dazzer said:


> No one suggests that these men do not deserve punishment, but it seems you can bring the country to its knees and get away with a golden handshake and fat pension the only price for that is an insincere apology(Cloud)
> 
> Sign the petition if you wish, if you disagree that's fine this is a democracy after all (for now!!!)


Their jail terms are only an issue in relation to what many bankers, businessmen and MPs have been getting away with. Sounds like the fishermen deserve their sentences, but their crime is minimal in comparison to what the financial numpties have been doing (failing) and then awarding themselves big bonuses. A pity our system doesn't support long jail sentences for them - as they've done greater harm to society.


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## AncientBrit

I originally posted in this thread because there was a need for some clarification as to what these people had been up to that earned such a hefty fine, but as usual, here come the EU quotas.
Despite constantly seeing photo's in SN of bigger and better fishing vessels being built as we speak and seeing monsterous sums of money being made illegally, which would imply that even bigger sums of money are being made legally, whenever the subject appears in this Forum it always ends up with fishermen going the sack-cloth and ashes route and complaining bitterly about the EU quotas.
This my friends, is very similar to when one is having an intelligent discussion about religion and the other person starts quoting the bible..... Further conversation is pointless!
Regards
Bob


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## EJR Williams

After All Said & Done Wasn't it the Accountants / Bankers that said to the ship owners that you could get more money from investing in the markets, hence the demise of the majority of British Fleets (I wonder who's laughing now) --- not that i bear any grudges againts the demise of the Briish shipping Federation!!!!


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## 3762dazzer

*Clarity*

Just a couple of points

The 'Crime' is victimless, government policy put the Canadian fishermen out of business not an 80 foot fishing boat some 3000 miles away!

The point of a democracy is that you obey the rules but have the right to voice your opposition, no one is suggesting anything else. (Hence the petition) 
I'm merely pointing out that our liberties in this country have been eroded over the past 10 years like no other time.

The broke the law and deserved their punishment, the fine and the prison sentence are not commensurate to the crime, would it make more sense to allow the men to continue working and pay the fine off ???

Of course the fish are dead once landed, I assume that comment was made in jest, if it wasn't then to explain, the fish will be dead once hauled on board.

The petition is to try and stop the government authorities using the POCA to remove assets from ordinary people who are not career criminals, its rather like customs seizing a £15000 car for 'importing' too many **** or booze.

If your happy with the current state of affairs that's fine


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## wbeedie

Bigger crime to dump prime fish back into the water dead boys,the British fishermen are at the forefront of all the conservation methods in Europe,time to pull out of the CFP not that that will happen now seeing as how BROON has signed the treaty yesterday without a thought for what the common man wants,and here was me thinking the UK wanted rid of Dictatorships


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## ROBERT HENDERSON

I have signed the petition for the reason Wbeedie and others have given.

Regards Robert


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## mark m

AncientBrit said:


> I originally posted in this thread because there was a need for some clarification as to what these people had been up to that earned such a hefty fine, but as usual, here come the EU quotas.
> 
> Would you not agree AncientBrit that the EU IS the problem .(Thumb)


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## mwebster56

mark m said:


> AncientBrit said:
> 
> 
> 
> I originally posted in this thread because there was a need for some clarification as to what these people had been up to that earned such a hefty fine, but as usual, here come the EU quotas.
> 
> Would you not agree AncientBrit that the EU IS the problem .(Thumb)
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly!
Click to expand...


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## benjidog

Please make allowances for my ignorance of the fishing industry, but common sense suggests that if everyone was allowed to catch whatever they wanted, there would be nothing left pretty damn soon and ALL fishermen would be out of a job whatever their nationality.

Or am I missing something?


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## wbeedie

benjidog said:


> Please make allowances for my ignorance of the fishing industry, but common sense suggests that if everyone was allowed to catch whatever they wanted, there would be nothing left pretty damn soon and ALL fishermen would be out of a job whatever their nationality.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


No the fishing needs to have WORKABLE rules whether closed areas for certain times,more selective gear to stop the caching of juvenile fish.
Days at sea at this time of year could causesevere injuries as when the vessel is at sea regardless if fishing or dodging they loose that day so skippers are inclined to work in weather where they would have kept the nets aboard and the crew dry ,the quota system and ICES advice needs to be done away wwith as its all done by guesstimates and over the past EIGHT years prime fish have had to be discarded because of the cod restrictions and British/Irish fishermen are bearing the brunt of the CFP when French and Spanish boats go unchecked,the rules need to be rewritten to take proper checks, the fisherie research vessels tow for half an hour and are nnot getting true readings of what is in areas,the seal population around the British isles take more fish than the trawlers,other fisheries are being hammered with new rules ie the nephrops fisheries in the west coast where there are no traditional cod grounds was almost closed to help the recovery plan,black fish is and always was a problem but the fine handed out was rediculous and out of proportion to pay in the time frame when fuel prices were going up ,forcing running costs to rise and the price of fish the same as 20 years ago, the laws used were for the use of the system to claim money from drug dealers and other major criminals and it has failed dismally in that so they targetted the owners of a fishing vessel who were jailed for not being able to pay it back,I would love to hear how the crown worked out the values of the fish caught ,probably what the shops charged and multiplied it by the aount landed adding 2 and 2 together to get 15

There are counties that work the no discard rule in their waters and that includes guts and offal going back into the marine enviroment and the stocks are healthy,am not sure about the Faroes waters but certainly a few years ago they used to shut areas for a few months at a time and no fishing after dark and the fish being landed is well in the safety limits

the government here need to get an accurate picture of what is being caught and set quotas from there and not from faulty scientific data whichwould probably prove the fish are there and not in danger and watch what is being caught year in year out to evaluate and alter the quotas for the following years


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## wbeedie

Information explaining the scientific information on anothr forum by Davie Tait


DavieTait
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Re: SOME INFORMATION IF YOUR INTERESTED.
« Reply #8 on: Today at 04:06:23 PM »
Reply with quote
The North Sea Herring Fishery was shut from 1977 to the mid 1980's and the North Sea Herring stocks are very healthy indeed now. In fact the North sea Herring fishery has either been credited or is on its way to being credited with MSC ( Marine Stewardship Council ) sustainable fishery status.

I worked as a Fishery Scientist for 9 years , brought up in a fishing family ( we had the last traditional sidewinder to fish out of Aberdeen ) , and I've seen all sides of the industry except the political one ( I was a Fishery Officer in 1987 ). The current fleet is only 30% of the numbers that were in the industry 20 years ago and with the limit on the numbers of days each vessel is allowed to fish in a year and with the considerably larger mesh sizes ( including adding a square mesh panel which allows undersize fish to escape uninjured ) the true effort in the North Sea from UK boats is less than 18% of the amount 25 years ago.

The Cod stocks are far far healthier than they have been for the last 40-50 years. Boats have to steam up to 200 miles to get away from Cod ( they don't want to catch them just to have to dump them dead overboard because of the stupid EU regulations ). The problem lies in the "Science" of stock assessment. It is just not a Science its more guesswork than that. They went from 1 hour tows on the old FRV Scotia ( the standard in use for over 100 years by the Marine Lab in Aberdeen ) to 30 minute tows on the new FRV Scotia. I did the comparative survey between both ships , us on the old boat towing 60 minutes the new boat towing 30 minutes both using the same gear , and they did not catch 50% of the weight nor all of the species on the new Scotia.

Cod and Saithe ( Coley ) need longer than 30 minutes to tire out and fall back into a net as both species are strong swimmers and even the Marine Lab has film of Saithe swimming out of the mouth of a net when it was hauled. The problem with that is that if you are not towing long enough you will not catch Cod or Saithe meaning your "scientific assessment" means your view of the stock is that it is in decline when it wasn't!!!

That is the entire knub of the problem with the jailing of both of these men. They have been sent to prison based on "quota" assessments that are in themselves not based on good scientific principles. Another fact not mentioned is that the Inland Revenue was paid the full amount of TAX on the over quota fish so does that mean that the Inland Revenue are themselves guilty of earning money from crime thus liable for a large fine under the proceeds of crime act ?? In Scotland that is called Reset and is a criminal offence...



Also from the same source the monetary value paid

It isn't just the fact that this could put them out of business with the loss of 6 jobs its the fact that there are 7 jobs onshore in the ancillary / support trades ( including the shops , car dealerships , etc [ I used to collect this info in 1987 when I was a Fishery Officer and the figure is still valid to this day ] ) so you have not 6 men claiming Jobseekers Allowance but a total of 48 out of a job.

6 crew , say roughly £6000 a year income tax each = £36,000
42 shore jobs , say roughly £4000 a year income tax each = £168,000
Boats tax , I am well out of the loop on this so will be a rough figure

So without a rough figure for the boats tax thats £204,000 a year in income taxes paid to the government. If these tax payers had been put out of a job and had to claim full benefits it would have cost the rest of us tax payers something in the reason of the following per week each.

If we say that all of the tax payers above are over 25 ( most likely correct ) then they are entitled to £60.50 Jobseekers Allowance , would be entitled to claim tax credits for children and if they are in a council house they can claim housing benefit , rates relief , etc.

If we assume 1/2 of them are in council housing thats 24 x £100 ( roughly ) per week each for housing benefit making that figure for a year including Jobseekers allowance = £200,304
The other 24 getting just Jobseekers Allowance = £75,504
or a total of £275,808....

So assuming the boat pays around £75,000 taxes then instead of £275,000 being paid into the tax coffers we would have to pay out the same amount... a difference of £550,000 down the tubes

So you can see just how ludicrous this situation is. Yes they caught more Cod than they were allowed to but that was the only way they could keep the boat from going out of business with the costs to the tax payer above. Yes they should have been fined but only using the fisheries Legislation which would have meant no more than say £100,000 for these offences. A much more reasonable sum to try to raise in a time of financial turmoil.


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## benjidog

Please don't think I am having a go at fishermen - I have great admiration for the work they do in very difficult cir***stances but this does not seem to be a black and white case. I don't think anyone could justify throwing back fish once caught - it just doesn't make sense from a conservation point of view as the fish die anyway.

You seem to be arguing for different rules rather than a free-for-all which is good and I am happy to defer to your knowledge of what might be better.

But I have to ask why you think the people (and I assume this is just a few people) who ignore the rules now would take notice of new rules? 

Is it not reasonable to expect fishermen to continue to argue for reform of the rules or laws based on a more scientific approach (which I would heartily support) but to work within the current laws until they are changed?


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## wbeedie

The current rules are basically unworkable due to monetary reasons 15 days at sea ,13 fishing 6 of a crew to have a pay that is liveable on for a month ,for it to be worthwhile fish prices would have to double ,would you pay a teenner for a fish supper outo of the chippie at that price the chip shops would close ,the factories would close so its catch 22 ,the rules are draconian ,when the cod recovery plan was announced in 2002 the skippers were pannicking at the thought ,areas of the sea were proposed to be shut where there is not any cod ,the same mistakes are being made now , water temperatures are climbing and that has been attributable to bigger cod catches further north than previous years but the fisherman has been altering gear at major costs to them selves where nets can cost uwards of £6000 ,the inshore boats in the west coast have until April 1st to replace codends at £600 as shot when they are just staring to get out and earn money not like the foot and mouth and BSE where farmers were given money to cover for herds of cattle to be destroyed ,the fisherman has to make these changes out of his own pocket, fuel prices last year at an all time high when vessels were burning on average 25,000 litres a TRIP ,there is no other trade expected to work with their hands tied behind there backs like this industry and and the rules change more often than those at a feminine rights march as Billy Connoly once said "We want his now ,we want it right away but dont go to sleep as it will be different tomorrow"


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## val 100

The Act used to jail these 3 was not invisaged to be used as it has been used here.surely this is more minor than drug offences where whole lives and families are destroyed,kids been hit and killed by drunk drivers who get 3 mnths on appeal?This act was supposed to curtail arms,drugs and other serious crimes endangering the public.I was fined £5k in 1992 for a minor fisheries offense,the 2 guys either side of my case1 had broken into pub stole **** and booze the other has put his wife in hospital the w-end before,both got community service!


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## 3762dazzer

*Actual reason they have been jailed*

These 2 men have been jailed not for not paying the fine but for trying to PAY the damn thing.
The only collateral they had was the boat and as the Serious and Organised Crime Agency had frozen all their assets when they tried to secure a loan against the boat they were held in contempt of court and sent to prison with NO appeal allowed.

This is exactly what I want the SOCA to concentrate on(MAD) 

If anyone wants to challenge that this sort of thing isn't to hit a financial target please convince me I'm all ears(Thumb)


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## Highlander

I have just read the two above posts by Val 100 and 3762 dazzer, the act, that McBrides have been jailed under, that is the biggest pile of hypocrisy I have ever read in my life, this is now called a 'political conundrum of hypocrisy". I just hope for the McBrides, that the petitions will someway help to get an early release. Whoever wrote that act, that jailed the McBrides needs to have another look at what is written and is made aware, of what is actually in that piece of legislation.

I have been away from Scotland for nearly forty years, I do not believe how, the British Political System, can be so, contemptuous. I am embarrassed and ashamed, of the entire Westminster system of so called justice, this isna justice its a 
"lynch mob" attitude towards the entire British Fishing Industry, or, what is left of it.

Jim.


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## Kenny&Debra

*Well as the other half is (Thumb) , I can tell you from insider wifie knowledge that you'll find that the reason the McBrides were jailed is because it was a way out of the fine imposed on them- which was ridiculous to say the least. 
The fault lies at whatever person who had no knowledge of the Fishing Industry imposed this very substantial fine.....and actually although you are all up in arms at them being "jailed"...it is the best option I hate to say it. Believe me someone knew that it would be kinder to "pay back" what was remaining of the fine, in jail days, rather than bleed them dry when they didn't have it.
Put it this way...the fine was too much for a very controversial misdemeanour - if they were released due to the petition...however many days were left which they did not serve could then be calculated as remaining fine owing and who would pay it ?
We would all have to walk to the houses of Parliament to keep the McBrides from the wolves, and I bet many would do just that !
As it is, they will serve half the time they were jailed for, and that would be the end of the matter...no more fine to pay. (Plus they do not have to pay council tax etc while they are in there.) 
Jail sounds horrible, but I know which I would choose if I were in the same boat of a huge fine like that...I would say I can't pay it, and I will serve the time for it.....the fact the whole thing is a political football in the first place is why the sentence is so little....there are some red faces just hoping it will all go quiet on the subject I bet.
The whole thing needs looking at by people in the know, both in the Fishing Industry and the Political spectrum....Alec Samond lol !!!
Maybe then this farce of a warning to all will never happen again.
I don't know which prison they have been jailed in, but if it's a Scottish one they will be well looked after, and will get help with every need or social problem caused to them and their family. The only thing they will not have is freedom for a few weeks, but they will have Satelite TV, Computer Games Consoles, Gym, Snooker, Films, help on release, and loads more.

Debra*


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## OLD HAND

I agree and disagree with Debra there maybe some truth that some of the fine not all of it may go away,(they had already paid 100000 pounds) the fact is that the two men in question where not in court with the option of saying we have no more money and go to jail for a while and forget all about it,that option was never there.The only option these men ever had was go to court with no money and be sent down for 6months and still have to pay the fine or ,under legal advance,use the only assets they had left to raise the remaining money knowing a court judgment was in place that meant they where not allowed to diminish their assets but they where at least paying nearly the rest of the fine(penny's left compared to what they had paid and where paying.)
Stuck between a rock and a hard place what could these men do, can any body tell me a bank in our GREAT COUNTRY UK that is lending personal loans at that amount, and what a year it has been for these men with fuel the highest its ever been.The pressure on these guys fishing days no boat should be out in putting boat and lives at risk because they can't afford to be ashore with this ridiculous fine hanging around their necks like a noose.And where they shown any mercy,there where numerous options open to the court prison was the last resort,these men have suffered injustice after injustice.
There where 17 other people involved in the original case did any of them have the ARA call on them .Some of their fines where as little as 800 pounds,the judge could only fine them what they could afford as he said it would benefit nobody putting people out of business.But these men have been victimized they are no more guilty than the other 17 but here we are tow years letter still going on and the ARA wants every thing they own. 
So to say as Debra ''I know which I would choose if I were in the same boat of a huge fine like that...I would say I can't pay it, and I will serve the time for it'', believe me if that had ever been an option they would have done that two years ago.


http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/FishermenPOCA/

SUPPORT THE MCBRIDES


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## Kenny&Debra

Good post OLD HAND !
Any fine is seen as "paid" when they are sent to prison - time served in lieu of remaining fine if you know what I mean. Pity they weren't sent to prison up here....grapevine and all that(Thumb) 
Seems like they've been sent down the river from the off...something smells eh ! Others do far worse and nothing happens to them.
Here's hoping it goes quick for them and they are back home soon.
Debra


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## Tmac1720

Are you sure a fine is regarded as paid if you are sent to jail? As far as I know when you get out the fine or balance is still due. The jail time was for contempt of court for not paying the fine.


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## wbeedie

There were 19 individuals and companies found guilty in this case , the first 16 were fined a total of £208,700 with fines varying from £800 to £30,000 but the final 3 including Charlie and his Son had fines and the only ones to be subject to the Proceeds of Crime Act to a total of over £1m. How they come to the conclusion that 16 , who were involved in the same overfishing , should pay 20% of the fines and penalties of the 3 left is beyond me.

Do they have a case for being victimised by the state , being treated out of all proportion for the same offence as others in the same case or something similar ?? I think they do and I think its abysmal that they are not allowed to appeal the conviction for contempt of court ( what part of the Human Rights act allows no appeal ?? none of it I think !! )


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## Kenny&Debra

Hubby works in the system...so yes I know that the sentence would be the fine paid within the 2 years....and if not all paid by then the remaining is commuted to time served in days/weeks. Pity they ever paid any of it as that would have been commuted to days as well once the time to pay was up.
I checked and he says he is pretty sure their fines and sentences in England work the same as Scotland....so going on that, the fine will be seen as paid once they have served their time.
He also said they can be given ANY fine the courts fancy...even if it's something they have no means to pay....the courts don't care if you can't pay it...a fine is a fine at any amount....also he said that if they are owing any other fines that those can be run concurrently with this one and all can be paid off with this time served.
They can appeal the sentence if they think they have grounds...but they would need a lot of huge names on their case to do this....as any appeal can also carry the risk of making the sentence even more ! Personnaly I would try the European Court of Human Rights...but in this case, it's the Europeans who set the rules on Fishing, so they might just throw it out and have no sympathy.
It stinks but that's governments for you !
Debra(Thumb)


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## cryan

I am not a fisherman but I do make my living by going down to the sea in ships. It is disgracefull for any person who has ever put a piece of fish in their mouths to ever condone, never mind prosecute a fisherman. As the fishwives of Newhaven where I'm from used to say, "It's no fish your buying it's mens lives!" I have signed the petition as i feel strongly for the rights of all seamen as today we are mostly treated as criminals and terrorists where ever we go in the world. In most of the marine world it is the stay at homes who usually make the rules about a world they can't possibly understand nor have any notion to learn about. and for the most part we let them revel in their ignorance but when they are throwing us in jail something must be done. As for this case something doesn't add up to me, if they had made £15million over and above of what they should have legaly then surely they should have been able to pay the fine? as they couldn't I suspect some office accountant has got his sums wrong. Oh and don't get me started on the quango that is the environment agency!


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## cryan

But yes the EU is a great idea which does not really work in practice, and not just for fishing.


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## Highlander

CRyan,

A very well written statement and understanding about the fishing industry, your comments, from the Fishwives, how, very, very true is that saying.

All the best.

Jim.(Thumb)


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## OLD HAND

Our Constitution (Declaration and Bill of Rights 1688/9 makes clear, "That excessive bail ought not to be required; nor excessive fines imposed; nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted”. These are from our Constitution, the law above the law, the foundations upon which all other laws are or should, be built.
Clause 29 Magna Carta makes clear that "for a trivial offence, a free man shall be fined only in proportion to the degree of his offence, and for a serious offence correspondingly, but not so heavily as to deprive him of his livelihood. In the same way, a merchant shall be spared his merchandise, and a husbandman the implements of his husbandry, if they fall upon the mercy of a Royal Court. None of these fines shall be imposed except by the assessment on oath of reputable men of the neighbourhood".Section of the Western Morning News.


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## Highlander

Old hand,

You have been very,very busy with your research, well done, makes for good reading.I imagine, these laws will be used by the courts,when it suits them and to their own advantage. I wonder if any lawyer, might be just reading your post, maybe ,better still, somebody may know the lawyer and send your quote to that the person representing the McBrides.

Jim.


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## OLD HAND

AS a Kilkeel father and son duo are jailed for not paying a confiscation order over landing excess fish stocks, the real price of how basic food is brought to our diner table becomes alarmingly evident.
Fifty five year-old Charlie McBride and his son Charles Hubert, were jailed for two months and three months respectively, at Liverpool Crown Court on Monday.
Back in January 2007, Charlie and his son stood with 23 other defendants at the same court to plead guilty to a charge of illegally landing excess fish stocks, known as black fish.
Speaking in an interview with The Outlook last year, Charlie spoke candidly about the situation and voiced fears over the looming prison sentence if he couldn't find the money.
He said back then if he was to be jailed: "After release, I will still be expected to pay the fine, plus eight per cent interest."
The added financial pressure of legal fees of £130,000 and a second Confiscation Order of £10,613 against his company McBride Fishing, which he has already paid, will see Charlie fishing the North Sea until he's 70 years old.
This was the first time in British history the Assets Recovery Agency (ARA) was involved in such a case against fishermen, who are legally bound by the EU to throw their fish kill back into the sea in order that their fishing quotas remain.
The ARA, whose main role was to prevent crooks like drug or people traffickers benefiting from their crime, ordered Charlie and his son to pay two Confiscation Orders, one of which is for £400,000.
On 10 June 2008, six months were up - the time scale given to Charlie to pay up.
These days Charlie and his crew on board The Arcane, fish the North Sea for three weeks at a time, in order for his trip to pay. He said: "Fuel prices have increased 400 percent in the last four years. Basically this means that 50 per cent of a fisherman's catch goes towards his fuel costs never mind paying off substantial fines."
Charlie and his trawler were recently the subject of a BBC do***entary - Trawlermen - which highlighted the plight fishermen are under.
James Dawson, the cameraman and director of the series, said: "Charlie was bearing the consequences of his recent fine and I was struck by the financial pressure he is under to fish in violent storms that most fishermen wouldn't go out in."
A representative from the fishing industry this week described the sentence as a disgrace. He stormed: "Now fishermen who are trying to make a living are being thrown in jail."


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## wbeedie

Posted on trawlerphotos 

To Davie Tait, Wbeedie, Dunmore, members of Trawler Photo, and everyone who is supporting them.
It says " We cannot thank you enough for everything you have done and are still doing for us and for your support."
"I hope and pray that no other fishermen have to go through what we have suffered this past 5 years specially these past few weeks. ...He speaks about the conditions in jail and about the jobs they have been given (makes you think of the film Midnight Express). He speaks about his wife Karen, who is also serving a sentence. He (Charlie) has just been told that he is getting out on Licence on the 14th of this month but cannot go back to sea until license expires. Still not sure when young Charles is getting out but hopefully it wont be too long after me. ... They still expect us to pay £ 286 000 plus 8% interests when we will be released. We already paid over £160 000 in legal fees these past 5 years.
All that for a few boxes of fishes already dead.
Again thank you. "


so the fine still stands a flippin disgrace if you ask me


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## Highlander

Aye Willie,


I have just read this latest post about the McBrides, good news for Charlie, can you explain, what it means, that he is released on a "licence"? Aye, it is still a disgrace that they have to pay the balance,as I said in another forum, its, "lambs to the slaughter".

Jim.


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## wbeedie

Well here is another story totally unrelated Jim,same lines look at the punishment though

Originally Posted by BBC
A drug trafficker is thought to have become the first man in Scotland to be made to hand over the profits he earned from dealing behind bars.

George Bryceland, 47, has been ordered to give up the £1,050 he was caught with as he left Perth Prison.

He was caught moments after being freed from a eight-and-a-half year sentence imposed for trafficking £180,000 worth of ecstasy, cocaine and amphetamine.

Police had received a tip-off that he had continued to sell drugs in prison.

Proceeds of crime

At Perth Sheriff Court, Sheriff Michael Fletcher ordered Bryceland, from Dundee, to hand over £1,050 cash to the Crown under the Proceeds of Crime Act.

Police found the cash on him as he left Perth jail in August 2007.

In December 2006, while he was serving in prison, he was caught with heroin and was convicted and fined for possession of the class A drug.

Bryceland was jailed for eight-and-a-half years in 2002 after raising suspicions among bookies when he placed a series of massive bets around Dundee.

One betting firm alerted police to Bryceland's activities under rules designed to combat money-laundering from the proceeds of crime.

He would regularly bet two or three thousand pounds on a single horse and sometimes spent as much as £30,000 a day gambling.

Police later seized £180,000 of drugs from cars linked to Bryceland.

Time for the Macbrides to start importing from Columbia would have got a lesser punishment


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## Kenny&Debra

*Never heard of fine still to be paid after days in jail for non payment....must be something to do with the English system....unless they are just making up laws now to suit themselves...definately a strange case that should be looked at ! I know that once you have been jailed for non-payment in Scotland that is the end of the matter. 
Were they caught in English or Scottish waters ??? 
Maybe something could be done on those grounds as English law should not apply to Scottish waters if that is where they were trawling.
The legal system is full of unfair tarrifs that's for sure. Murderers should be hung and everything else should be fair and just....to me this is just a political sentence in which a warning should have been delivered firstly...and the same sentence to all offenders if they flouted the warning.
And yes the family always has a sentence as well....I hope they have some good luck when they get home...they've had such a hard time.
Debra

*I have just re-read what has been posted and I see it is not a court fine but a marine agency fine, - in which case the rules are different.
It all comes down to the way the warrant is worded as well.
Also when push comes to shove....they made 15 million pounds on their crime....so there was money "somewhere" to pay for the small proportionate fine they were told to pay(not even a 30th of the criminal gain)....and some of the others who were also in the dock it says, were fishing in boats owned or controlled by them...or a company in which they were directors in...which is I suppose why they are the ones with the fine and not the others. Plus this has been going on for some time apparently.
Also a lot of hearsay and stories being said by some, as some of what has been posted as truth heard from within is definately not the case in the justice system.*


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## bern66

I wonder if the rest of the EU fisherman are observing the Fishing regulations, as our UK men appear to be doing. Although not in this case obviously,


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## wbeedie

They werent jailed for non payment they were jailed for trying to get a loan on the boat after their assets had been frozen and held in contempt , thats why the fine has still to be paid


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## Highlander

Aye Willie,

Just read that other article, that just stinks how the bloke got away with that carry on behind bars. Mind you, similar has happened here and probably still is. Willie, I like many others just cannae fathom, that they were in, "contempt of court", to try and prevent themselves being jailed, for non-payment of the fine.
The entire legislation, needs and has to be overhauled to prevent this for ever happening again.As you will agree Willie, changing legislation doesnt happen overnight. In the meantime, how many others, may face the same reality, while they try to rehash the legislation. Rehash being the operative word, as the whole CFP is an utter hash up

Jim.


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## wbeedie

Taken from Trawler phhotos even worse news for the boys

dunmore's Avatar 
dunmore dunmore is offline
Skipper

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dunmore East
Posts: 3,255
Default
"Hopefully you will be reading this this evening."

I HAVE RECIEVED AN EMAIL FROM kILKEEL AND IT DOES NOT MAKE FOR POLITE READING

"The jobs the boys were given was bin collectors in the prison, because they had excrement thrown at then, bottles of urine, and serynges, they had to get hepatitis vacination. But the prison doctor came to them or Charlie this evening and said that they made a mistake with the vaccination and don't want to say what they were vaccinated for. They want to give them some other injection but Charlie is totally refusing. He is running out of phone credit and Karen does not know what to do, she cannot contact his solicitor. I said this to a frenchman, skipper of the boat and they are raging. This is enough. waht can we do? I mailed davie. This is sad, unbeleivable."


THIS IS AN UTTER DISGRACE


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## wbeedie

A link for non UK residents ishere a lot of French boys leaving supporting comments also


http://www.petitiononline.com/f1sh1ng/petition.html

At this moment 1200 sigs on the UK/Expats Petition and 80 sigs on the other


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## Highlander

Willie,

Thats fine to hear that there are 1200 sigs on the expatriates petition, I hope this will do some good and that the legislation is sorted out, soon, this year no a few years time.

Jim.


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## japottinger

Arcane is lying at Fraserburgh **** and span as having coming off the slip, who is looking after her?


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## OLD HAND

Their fish sales agent


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## wbeedie

Taken from another site comment from old hand

The rays of morning light that bring the end to a long nightmare have not yet arrived for the McBride family.
The McBride’s are back in Liverpool Crown Court again on the 16th of October as they have not been able to pay all of their confiscation order and have been warned by their legal team that if they cannot come to an agreement with SOCA (Serious Organised Crime Agency) as to the actual value of their remaining assets before that date then Judge Dread may very well evoke the suspended sentence that was given in December 2007, which was if the total fine was not paid in full with in the 6 month period given then Charles Snr would be sentence to 2 years and 3 months and Charles Junior would be sentenced to 2 years and 6 months.


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## Highlander

Willie,

Not a good read, that last post of yours, seems the court is determined to put them behind bars. I would have thought, that a Fisheries Minister might have gone and taken up their cause, but it would appear, since being released earlier this year, that everybody had forgotten about the McBrides.
Aye Willie a its a right sair fecht,,,,,,,,,,,,, ( a real problem) 

Jim.


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## coble

free them have not done any thing wrong the british GOV in jail


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## Kenny&Debra

This sorry saga still going on ? I told you the courts would jail them so many days for a certain amount of what is left of unpaid fines, and they will as well, unless they can come up with something new cir***stances wise or there is a change of feeling in government. If they feel they have done wrong- they will carry it through....I feel sorry for the skipper, he doesn't look well enough for the stress, but the law is the law, though they might take his health into consideration. If they can do it for Ronnie Biggs why not a hard working skipper ! I dont think they realised what they faced until it was too late. Wasn't worth the risk.
Debra


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## Shane Johnson

The law is the law as far as the UK jobsworths are concerned.
As a former deckhand on a Spanish trawler I can assure you that there is no worry whatsoever against over fishing, misreporting or catching undersized fish.
I was disgusted at what was kept but was threatened with the sack if I kept on moaning.
That being said, the fish we kept were dead anyway so where do you draw the line.

The real criminals in this sorry saga are the inept and corrupt politicians who sold the UKs fish for the proverbial bag of European silver and those who continue to trumpet the cause of the EU instead of fighting for the people they are supposed to represent.

Rant over.


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## slick

All,
What a sorry tale, hard working people being persecuted, it is just not right but where do we go from here?
The only good news in UK fishing almost unreported was of the Constant Friend and the Girl Rhona and the phenomenal catch of Anchovy at £2,000 a tonne.
Oh, by the way I cannot see the Tories getting anything back from Europe least of all fishing concessions - there are no votes in it.

Yours aye,


Slick


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## Gloucesterman

I'd just like to say that the government....all governments are completely out of touch with what's happening with fish stocks. While they were saying that Cod stocks were depleted and near collapse we were seeing Cod everywhere. We were trying to avoid catching them to conform to regulations and just couldn't get away from them! The McBrides were made an example of plain and simple. Lots of fisherman were doing exactly the same as them, they just were not caught.


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