# Best position for ship handling.



## rogd

I've just watched a short video of two Carnival cruise ships in a 'minor' collision some where in Mexico.
Now, I was a leckie and I know very little of ship handling, but it seems to me that these floating housing estates cannot be easy to control.
My question to you Deckies is what is the best bridge position from which to control a ship, aft, midships or forward?
Roger.


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## dannic

rogd said:


> I've just watched a short video of two Carnival cruise ships in a 'minor' collision some where in Mexico.
> Now, I was a leckie and I know very little of ship handling, but it seems to me that these floating housing estates cannot be easy to control.
> My question to you Deckies is what is the best bridge position from which to control a ship, aft, midships or forward?
> Roger.


Many much smaller cargo ships had manouvering station aft of No.4 hatch. Never saw it used tho.
Dannic


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## James_C

Amidships, high up on an open bridge wing giving you an excellent view of proceedings fore and aft is for me the best spot. Plus you're a lot closer to the pivot point when manouvering.


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## Norm

With the advent of azimuth pod variable speed, variable pitch, variable rotation propellers, bow and aft and mid thrusters etc, computer control, cameras, screens and god knows what else the best position is the one where control of same is grouped together. It is probably because of all this technology that more accidents haven't already happened. But wait..there is the weather. A sudden gust of wind on all that freeboard would push a ship for just the small distance it needs to collide with its dockside neighbour.
In June this year the MSC Opera crashed into a smaller vessel in Venice. Captain said the "engine locked"...eh?


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## harry t.

*ship handling*

No matter the whereabouts of the ‘bridge’, - for’ad, midships or aft, such as on a ‘muzzle loader’. The usual sensible position for the master or pilot is to con the lady from the bridge wing where you can best judge the vessels parallel body as you come alongside, particularly if she’s only single screw with a small rudder. 
Always have an anchor at the ready.

With variable pitch props and, thrusters etc – its ‘wee buns’.


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## lakercapt

A very good question but there are many factors to consider. As a previous reply with azipods, CPP, thrusters, etc there is many choices.
On the Great Lakes, I sailed boats with the pilothouse for'd and others with the pilothouse aft, fixed pitch and with and without bow or stern thrusters.
Each had there own challenges but I thought the after end was the best place to handle the boat but others may find it differant.


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## Tony Drury

Always found the ships bar worked best for me!!!

As they would say today - stay safe lol!


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## harry t.

*An exception to an earlier post.*

One tour on a ship that differed from the ‘norm’, i.e., - steaming in towards a berth, bow first, on any FG ship. As below.

On a shallow draft heavy lift vessel with the bridge and accommodation right for’ad, twin diesel electric engines and two large rudders, tho’ no thrusters fitted then. Discharging at almost any port, particularly in NW Europe, no matter the wind effect on the deck cargo, it was preferable to turn the lady about and proceed stern first to the berth. A well-behaved girl, a dream, just keep an eye on that parallel body, make any necessary engine adjustments to correct drift and it made the job an absolute pleasure.

Note; in earlier days, if your previous ships were steam powered, as likely as not you’d have developed some bad habits swinging the engine telegraphs, the chief will be quick to advise – ‘slowly now, a notch at a time’- that, was the difficult bit.


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## Pat Kennedy

I was in Harrison's Tactician, which had the bridge just aft of #2 hatch. Steering was difficult at first but I eventually got used to it, the tall mast on the focsle was a great help,


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## Wallace Slough

I too found it difficult to conn a ship when the bridge was well forward. I'd stand on the center line of the ship and sight down the jackstaff, but it was always difficult. You'd have to be constantly aware that the entire length of the ship was wagging her tail at you! Conning from aft or near amidship as on older vessels was much easier.


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## tunatownshipwreck

Pat Kennedy said:


> I was in Harrison's Tactician, which had the bridge just aft of #2 hatch. Steering was difficult at first but I eventually got used to it, the tall mast on the focsle was a great help,


I'm wondering if the Romanians copied this design (Tactician) with some modifications.


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## lakercapt

On "Lake" boats when the pilothouse was right for'd there was a steering aid right on the bow called a "spearpole". For night time it had a small light.
It had a winch controlled from the pilothouse to raise it up when approaching the lock gates.


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## kewl dude

When I was a kid growing up on Shenango Furnace Company ships it was called a steering pole.

Attached: SchoonmakerLocks60s-E.jpg (119.3 KB)

Greg Hayden


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## Pilot mac

Norm said:


> With the advent of azimuth pod variable speed, variable pitch, variable rotation propellers, bow and aft and mid thrusters etc, computer control, cameras, screens and god knows what else the best position is the one where control of same is grouped together. It is probably because of all this technology that more accidents haven't already happened. But wait..there is the weather. A sudden gust of wind on all that freeboard would push a ship for just the small distance it needs to collide with its dockside neighbour.
> In June this year the MSC Opera crashed into a smaller vessel in Venice. Captain said the "engine locked"...eh?


Ship handling with all these 'extras' can bring you a fresh set of problems. There can simply be too much 'going on' and very easy to forget that you have left a thruster/pod running. This can be mitigated by putting all your assets through an interface and giving you a single joystick control.

Regarding best position, I think its down to what you get used to. I was Master of ships with a forward bridge which initially felt wrong but you soon get used to it. I was a Pilot for 25 years and have no preference, every job is different. The only thing I would ask for is an uninterrupted view , you would be surprised by how many ships arrive with cargo piled so high that visibility be seriously impaired. And who ever designed ships with no bridge wings ie no view at all of the ships side?

regards
Dave


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## rogd

Many thanks for the replies gentlemen.
The video I mentioned is on G Captain.
Surely if a vessel is manoeuvring so close to another moored vessel there should be someone down aft to keep the bridge informed of the situation as it develops.


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## Mad Landsman

There is more footage on Marine Insight:
https://www.marineinsight.com/video...campaign=Feed:+MarineInsight+(Marine+Insight)
Also some footage shot from the Oasis of the Seas can be found on YouTube. 

It appears that The Carnival Glory was actually heading towards Oasis of the Seas, which was berthed, and some attempt was made to turn away, perhaps hence the stern pivoting into the other ship.. In any event she passed very close across the bows of Oasis. 

This seems to bring into context to OP question - The bridge team were maybe concentrating on not hitting what was in front of them to realise what was going on behind.
Carnival Glory does not have Azipods.


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## seaman38

Pat Kennedy said:


> I was in Harrison's Tactician, which had the bridge just aft of #2 hatch. Steering was difficult at first but I eventually got used to it, the tall mast on the focsle was a great help,


I think there may be a little difference between 'ship handling' and being a helmsman (Smoke)


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## Pat Kennedy

seaman38 said:


> I think there may be a little difference between 'ship handling' and being a helmsman (Smoke)


You usual snarky comments not abated I see.(Smoke)


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## Ian Lawson

Depends very much on what type of mooring/berthing you are considering. If, for instance, I was berthing a ship 'alongside' it would make very little difference where I was positioned. If mooring at a SPM then midship bridge is handy and reduces the reliance on the second pilot on foc'sle. If a CBM then I prefer being aft which gives a good overview. Orientation is lost in CBMs with midship accommodation.


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## OilJiver

seaman38 said:


> I think there may be a little difference between 'ship handling' and being a helmsman


Plenty of my time at sea, Master/ship handler had only prop and rudder available for manipulation of his vessel. So in any manoeuvring situation, ship-handler would give verbal (_wheel_) orders to helmsman and telegraph (_engine_) orders to engine room. 
Some engine orders _occasionally_ a tad more _urgent_ than others. And whilst all senior engineers capable of being at engine controls on standby, some markedly better than others in responding to more _unrelenting_ rings of telegraph. Mainly on account of adept _feel_ for the job and familiarity of response from it.
So I guess _probably_ all same upstairs. Ship handler might well recognise helmsman skillsets and _probably_ not want to exchange places with any of them.


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## harry t.

*Experienced helmsmen certainly do make life easier*

from a letter home;
"On first arriving in the Gulf it didn’t take long to realise these GP1’s (helmsmen) knew every port, creek and submarine mooring buoy better than me, making it so much easier to settle into the job. The Bangladeshi crew are river boat men, not at all used to heavy seas and sadly are given to going around wearing lifejackets when the seas get rough. At least in anything but calm weather they don’t abandon the steering wheel for prayers. Most disconcerting arriving on the bridge to find the wheelman and the petty officer down on the praying mat totally oblivious to the safe navigation and her bowling along at a rate of knots, the old engine groaning because the wheel has jammed hard over. We had supplied fuel to the airport until the Sheik decided to pave the desert, so it was back to the bitumen and the odd job backing up to rigs with F.O. His unmarried female relatives all lived just across the creek from our berth. They and all the children would come out to wave as we swung close by into the berth, as we could be seen over the compound’s perimeter walls. We always gave a wave back after giving them a blast on the ship’s whistle. Clearly, a highlight in their day"


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## seaman38

Pat Kennedy said:


> You usual snarky comments not abated I see.(Smoke)


Alas, it was not a snarkey remark, merely an observation, every Master/Pilot/OOW appreciates a good helmsman. However if you wish to take it as a snarkey remark then that certainly is your prerogative.

I do hope that you have a happy New Year, as I wish all others also


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## lakercapt

We on the "Lakes" rely upon our "wheelsman" great deal as most have all the river courses and locks memorized and are a back up should you, through tiredness inadvertently make a wrong helm order.


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## Wallace Slough

In reply to Post #20 , what a difference a good versus bad engineer can make at the controls! Many years ago I piloted a States Lines Colorado class into Oakland. The next day I shifted the same ship from Oakland to Pier 80 in San Francisco. What a difference! The First Engineer must have been off for the shift and whatever engineer was on the throttle was a disaster. I finally turned to the Captain and said "what's going on???" We managed to get the ship alongside safely and it really illustrated the difference between a good engineer and a bad one.
Another example was Sitmar's Fairsky. She was known in the bay as "Miss Piggie." Twin screw, single rudder, and Italian engineers. Not a good combination.


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## dannic

Wallace Slough said:


> In reply to Post #20 , what a difference a good versus bad engineer can make at the controls! Many years ago I piloted a States Lines Colorado class into Oakland. The next day I shifted the same ship from Oakland to Pier 80 in San Francisco. What a difference! The First Engineer must have been off for the shift and whatever engineer was on the throttle was a disaster. I finally turned to the Captain and said "what's going on???" We managed to get the ship alongside safely and it really illustrated the difference between a good engineer and a bad one.
> Another example was Sitmar's Fairsky. She was known in the bay as "Miss Piggie." Twin screw, single rudder, and Italian engineers. Not a good combination.


2nd trip cadet, on the sticks in controlroom of Scythia, as she had had her bridge control /UMS revoked, Chief told me not to be so enthusiastic with starts! wait a minute or two and it saves the air compressors! Not something I ever did, except occasionaly in US when pilots demanded so many starts.
Dannic


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## kewl dude

re: Chief told me not to be so enthusiastic with starts! wait a minute or two and it saves the air compressors!

I never sailed a motor ship all steam but I experienced the same thing with pilots. T2's it took seven seconds to reverse the direction of the main motor. It did not take that long to pull or push the lever, but it took that long for the relays carrying propulsion voltage -located behind the switchboard - to do their things. When you are getting a new bell every five seconds what do you do? 

The engineer or oiler keeping the bell book works up a sweat trying to keep up. T2's, unlike geared turbines, could go from ahead to astern in 7 seconds. The main motor just reverses. Geared turbines you needed to shut off the one throttle while opening the other throttle but you could do both at the same time. Regardless the main engine needed to wind down to zero prop rpm then wind up again. 

Greg Hayden


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## harry t.

*in changing times*

Emailing an old friend, a Ch/Engr. on changes we shared, and not for the better in the 80’s.

“…………. would agree with that, sure remember those two BP tankers the bosses took on, in no time they made a complete change of the E/Rm.staff, all ex. the sub-continent. It didn’t seem to bother them, the owners or charterers that discharging times on both ships had jumped from a respectable 30 hours to 104. There was no way I was going to volunteer to work a Gulf/E. Africa on either of them.
It was hard enough watching out for the Iranians in those days, one trip I was steaming in to discharge at a submarine mooring buoy at Mina Qaboos. The CPO was standing by at the ready to launch the work boat, if you fluffed it on the run in when backing up to this buoy with only a single anchor, you’d have to go back out and try again. From the ‘Stand By’ I gave the usual rings on the telegraph to reduce speed. Instead of her now going dead slow she was still bowling along at full sea speed. So, it was back out to sea thru’ a jam-packed anchorage. Same business as you experienced, my old Ch/Engr Tony, replaced by an Indian “driver” earlier that year, but on this trip the crew manager had supplied a certificated Chief Engineer from the Bombay pool. I arrived on the control platform to find the ‘driver’ just sat on his stool watching, but saying nothing to this bloke who had taken over ‘his’ engine room. You could smell the ‘fear’ off this new arrival. A good kick took the stool from under the driver, unkindly, I told him to answer the bloody telegraphs. Later, he was back to his old self, a happy chappie, when he got his old job back. 
Come to think of it, some of the worst/more dangerous imposters had bought their tickets in Malta (same, same- recognised by the UK), HM Customs had …….……..”


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## Kevin Robertson

*Understanding modern technology and ship handling*

The Captains who con these vessels - and I agree some are behemoths (vessels not Captains) - are extremely well qualified as ship handlers, as well as having the necessary qualifications and sea time to be a Captain. Their "ship handling" training is updated regularly and assessed regularly

The kit on the bridge is not limited to only 5 RADAR (including Bow and Stern RADAR), but but up to 5 GPS (high accuracy), CCTV, multi wind sensors and at least 2 echo sounders. All are integrated into screens that give a clear picture of what is going on.

There will also be 3-4 other bridge officers AND a pilot on board, feeding information to the Captain. Until a MAIB report comes out we can all but speculate, but I would put money on either a temporary system or propulsion failure. This is not a "Costa" incident


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## kewl dude

Captain Albert in his blogs now and then attaches screen shots:

Screenshot20171018145115-E.jpg
DSC05854-E.jpg

20191119-19-nov-2019-blog-5- duckfoot-E.jpg
This is the - duckfoot - of the Koningsdam which is a sort of spoiler that pushes the stern onto the water and that improves the fuel efficiency. 

20100808-bridge-team-worrying-about-green-ice-E.jpg
When Captain Albert was captain of Prinsendam 2010.

2018-nov-28-blog-1-Bridge Team with all the officers present-E.jpg

Wasn't there a sudden burst of 30+ knot winds at that Mexican crash? 

Attached:
Screenshot20171018145115-E.jpg (246.0 KB) 
DSC05854-E.jpg (111.2 KB) 
20191119-19-nov-2019-blog-5- duckfoot-E.jpg (128.0 KB) 
20100808-bridge-team-worrying-about-green-ice-E.jpg (61.2 KB) 
2018-nov-28-blog-1-Bridge Team with all the officers present-E.jpg (86.4 KB)

Greg Hayden


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## harry t.

*Understanding modern technology and ship handling*

in my experience owners will only fit this expensive equipment when its deemed absolutely necessary, as stated, but if the man in command lets his dick take charge, such as in the ”Costa” incident, all is lost. Many years ago, at a reception celebrating the maiden voyage, the technical director overheard the master make some disparaging remarks about newly fitted “aids to navigation”. – returning to the UK the 2nd radar and an ice facsimile were removed from the voyage expense disbursements, just because the captain claimed when talking to a guest, - he could smell the ice.


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## seaman38

harry t. said:


> just because the captain claimed when talking to a guest, - he could smell the ice.


He'd have a job doing that in today's fully enclosed bridges.

Reminds me of the time I joined a ship in drydock which had had a brand new True-Motion radar fitted (50's) and me with my brand new True motion certificate in hand, couldn't wait to get started, forget it !the radar was kept on Relative display as the Master didn't trust these new fangled things, and he was a relatively young man, late 40's, not only that we needed permission to put the radar on.

Next ship had no radar, no gyro, no auto pilot, duff echo sounder and D/F, Columbus would have been proud of us.

But would I do it all again? you bet your bottom dollar I would, what the results would be I hate to imagine (==D)


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## Ron Stringer

seaman38 said:


> Reminds me of the time I joined a ship in drydock which had had a brand new True-Motion radar fitted (50's) and me with my brand new True motion certificate in hand, couldn't wait to get started, forget it !the radar was kept on Relative display as the Master didn't trust these new fangled things, and he was a relatively young man...


He may have had good reason to distrust True Motion radars of the time ... see post #28 *here*.


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## harry t.

*Understanding modern technology and ship handling*



seaman38 said:


> not only that we needed permission to put the radar on.
> Next ship had no radar, no gyro, no auto pilot, duff echo sounder and D/F, Columbus would have been proud of us.
> 
> But would I do it all again? you bet your bottom dollar I would, what the results would be I hate to imagine (==D)



indeed, I've been with old boys like that. They worried a fuse might blow -'then where would you be?'
Looking at any one of a number of vids on utube, some of the misfortunes experienced when berthing, particularly at Caribbean finger piers, could have been avoided. It’s all very well having extra navigational aids and the extra staff (most are superfluous in any case) to feed information info to El Capitano or a pilot. It’s what he/they do with this info.- no matter how little or how much. The most recent vid of a cruise liner coming in to berth, port side too, with the port anchor underfoot, didn’t require much imagination to guess he was going to wreck the pier, and cause some damage (specially the paintwork) to his ship. Simply, what was in the man’s mind that possessed him to order the dropping of the wrong anchor in the 1st place? Any experienced ship master will use ’his own good judgement’, always.


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## seaman38

Ron Stringer said:


> He may have had good reason to distrust True Motion radars of the time ... see post #28 *here*.


I do take the point you are making, however most Masters, 1/m in the 50's did not have radar tickets, it not being compulsory at their time of sitting for their certificates of competency and mis read the information on the PPI (self also guilty), it is only after a radar course that you learn to correctly plot the target. I have sailed with Masters who did ask a lowly 3/m to explain the PPI target plot. The point I was making is that the company had spent a lot of money installing that new equipment, surely it would have been prudent for the company to have sent the Master and/or C/O on a radar course during the drydocking, the school was in the same city.

When I became a Supt I requested the owners (at owner's expense) to send all their Masters and C/O on radar courses if they did not have a certificate, which surprisingly they did.


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## sternchallis

dannic said:


> 2nd trip cadet, on the sticks in controlroom of Scythia, as she had had her bridge control /UMS revoked, Chief told me not to be so enthusiastic with starts! wait a minute or two and it saves the air compressors! Not something I ever did, except occasionaly in US when pilots demanded so many starts.
> Dannic


Then you have the phone call to the bridge, " You have 2 choices, 3 toots of the whistle or one start, your move". 

Those old chestnuts.


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