# What is an Engineer



## Supern

Sorting through old papers from long ago and came across this with some of my late husband's papers: Goodness knows who wrote it originally.

Between the security of childhood and the insecurity of second childhood we find a fascinating group of humanity called "Engineers". They come in assorted sizes, weights and states of sobriety. They can be found anywhere on ships, at sea, at dances, in bars, in love and always in debt.

Girls love them, towns tolerate them and the Government supports them. An Engineer is lazyness with a pack of cards, bravery with a couple of drinks and the protector of the seas with a copy of "Men Only".

They have the energy of a turtle, the slyness of a fox, the brains of an idiot, the stories of a sea captain, the sincerity of a liar, the aspirations of a casanova and when they want something it is usually connected with a visitors pass.

Some of their interests are....... Women, drink, girls, booze, females, plonk and the opposite sex. They dislike answering letters, the "Old Man", the Mate, deck officers, Chief Stewards and stand-bye.

No-one else can cram into one pocket a little black book, a packet of crushed Players, a copy of his girl's photo, a comb, an old stationary-pad and what is left of their last pay.

They like to spend some of their money on girls, some on beer, some on poker and the rest foolishly.

An Engineer is a magical creature, you can lock him out of your home but not your heart, you can scratch him off your mailing list but not off your mind. He is hyour long away from home love, but all your shattered dreams become insignificant when yhour sailor docks, looks at you with those bleary, beery, bloodshot eyes and says, "Hi'y my sweet......


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## ianian

What a load of crap


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## Sebe

Steady on Ian, have you lost your sense of humour.


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## jg grant

I've lost my sense of humour too.


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## david freeman

excellent a pissing contest in the public loo's, ''Whos jet goes higher up the pocelain'' or can one spell ones own name in the freshly fallen snow??? An Engineer not gods gift, but the wife's nightmare, and the eng supers saviour???


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## chadburn

Without Engineers there would still be square wheels.


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## Varley

No. We would still have round wheels. They would, however, cost about 90% more.

This according to Pa's, presumably 'received' definition of his profession. "An engineer is someone that can produce for ten shillings what any fool can for a fiver".


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## woodend

My paternal grandfather was Chief Engineer with Canadian Pacific and I know he desperately wanted one of his two grandsons to follow in his footsteps. Unfortunately it wasn't to be, despite his stories, first my brother went on deck and then I followed suit seven years later. 
I have however always had an admiration for marine engineers especially during my years as Tug Master on the old coal burners. They put up with all the movements thrown at them.


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## David Williams

*Engineers*



ianian said:


> What a load of crap


Some people just cannot see a bit
of humour !!!!
Dave Williams


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## 5036

chadburn said:


> Without Engineers there would still be square wheels.


The engineers wanted to spend more money developing the square wheel for they saw in it a vision of the future of transport. The budget was discussed but the accountants wouldn't budge.
Now there is only one thing worse than an accountant who thinks he's an engineer and that's an engineer who thinks he's an accountant. He is the one with thoughts of power sitting with those that think they are God's. (Only an engineer can be a God, it says so in the bible.)
This engineer decided to save money by making the square wheel triangular. The new prototype was duly created at great expense and viewed with awe by the gathered throng.
"What's the advantage of the new design?" asked the chairman.
"It's cheaper because we got rid of one of the bumps." said the future God.


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## 5036

David Williams said:


> Some people just cannot see a bit
> of humour !!!!
> Dave Williams


Agreed. And inside the humour there are some great truths.


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## Dickyboy

chadburn said:


> Without Engineers there would still be square wheels.


This is the engineers end result..... :sweat:


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## A.D.FROST




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## ianian

Sebe said:


> Steady on Ian, have you lost your sense of humour.


J G Grant seems to think like me, lets be honest it was a bit derogatory, it makes out that ships engineers are a bunch of pissheads all the time, and no hopers.


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## BobClay

I visited Bletchley Park last weekend and they often referred to Tommy Flowers as a 'Post Office Engineer.' Although the guide at Bletchley most certainly didn't mean that in a derogatory way, I have heard it used like that (especially when i was with BT for a while.)
Tommy Flowers was one of the most brilliant engineers, Post Office or otherwise that has ever lived, and produced a machine that even the bright boys of Bletchley back in those dark days didn't believe could be done.
So the question 'What is an Engineer?' deserves to be treated with humour and not taken too seriously.
(Mind you, quite a lot of the ones I sailed with were pissheads.)

:sweat:


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## Varley

And our own calling had none of those, suppose!

A year or so ago our (IMarEST) President included an uncomplimentary joke about R/Os in his inaugural dinner speech. I was able to advise him later (in the gents I think) that he should have stuck to plumbing jokes as, like R/O jokes, they would probably be improved by the inside knowledge!


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## BobClay

Varley said:


> And our own calling had none of those, suppose!
> knowledge!



For sure. I'd have to say I would be a bit sad if I didn't qualify for the term considering the amount I've put down over a lifetime. What a waste of money that would be ..... (Pint)


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## Varley

I, too, was posting from a position of strength. Have your legs turned blue yet? Consultant borescopist promises me this fate, along with bleeding from every orifice and confusion. I have sent to Chums for trousers to match whilst I think what to do about the other er, um, where was I?


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## BobClay

The trick is to counter the drink by hacking up Snowdon (or a similar lump) as a form of counter-reaction. Engineers have an advantage at sea here because they grind up and down ladders and stairways all day (except Chief Engineers of course (joke.))

I still have nightmares about the day I took two feral kids up Snowdon on a high summer Sunday in the seventies knowing that at the bar on top (which I normally disapproved of) I could get a pint. BUT THEY SHUT ON A SUNDAY IN THOSE DAYS.

Since them I've always thought the Welsh are alien beings. (LOL)


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## ART6

ianian said:


> What a load of crap





ianian said:


> J G Grant seems to think like me, lets be honest it was a bit derogatory, it makes out that ships engineers are a bunch of pissheads all the time, and no hopers.


You are taking this far to seriously Ian. In my days we almost took pride in our reputation as pissheads and womanisers, and we could laugh at ourselves (when we weren't laughing at the mates and ROs). We could do that because we and all of our deck colleagues knew that when the s**t hit the fan we would deliver, just as we knew that they would. Maturity perhaps is being able to laugh at oneself and find the humour in the laughter of others.



Dickyboy said:


> This is the engineers end result..... :sweat:


Straightforward enough! It might look complicated to the uninformed, but we knew how it worked!

There was something I read a long time ago entitled "What is an engineer". I can't remember much of it now but it was in much the same vein as the first post, but I recall snippets like:

To an optimist the glass is half full. To the pessimist the glass is half empty. To the engineer the glass is twice the size it needs to be.

When a new product is fully developed and market-ready it should be enhanced with a few more bells and whistles that none of the customers thought they needed but which presented a challenge to the engineering department.

If something works the first time, it needs enhancement.

Mechanical engineers create weapons. Civil engineers create targets.

Marine engineers power ships across the oceans without the faintest idea of where they are going, driven by back seat drivers who have only a passing idea of what the engine is and what it does but believes passionately that it can evade the laws of physics when necessary.

And the five stages of an engineering project: first the concept, then the euphoria, then the build followed by the "Oh s**t!" moment, concluded by blaming the innocent and rewarding the uninvolved.

Who else could possibly want to be anything other than an engineer? (?HUH)


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## Irvingman

Supern..... Thanks for posting this light hearted article. It must have amused your late husband for him to keep it tucked away with his papers for all these years.(Thumb)
John
(Engineer with a sense of humour (*)))


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## TommyRob

Thank goodness for ART6. I thought I was on the wrong site for a while there.


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## Dickyboy

Art 6
That photo I posted of the valve wheels was taken on a WW1 German submarine. So I would imagine they would have been operated by Ratings.


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## BobClay

Dickyboy said:


> Art 6
> That photo I posted of the valve wheels was taken on a WW1 German submarine. So I would imagine they would have been operated by Ratings.


I took this also in a submarine.

To an engineer, this is heaven.

To a Sparky (or at least what they might have become since) this is something that needs to be replaced by some computers and several thousand sensors and activators. (Oh, and a reliable power source.)

[=P]


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## Mad Landsman

#24 :
Nice shiny things, Things that actually do stuff when you move the levers and turn the wheels. That's good! 

And what looks like nicely kept Drummond lathe in the foreground, what more could one need? - Well maybe a bit of daylight and fresh air perhaps.(Smoke)


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## BobClay

Mad Landsman said:


> #24 :
> Nice shiny things, Things that actually do stuff when you move the levers and turn the wheels. That's good!
> 
> And what looks like nicely kept Drummond lathe in the foreground, what more could one need? - Well maybe a bit of daylight and fresh air perhaps.(Smoke)


I had thought of cropping that picture so that only the top half was displayed, but yes that would have been wrong. That's a nice shade of green and without doubt the cleanest lathe I've ever seen. Of course this vessel is in the Royal Naval Museum in Portsmouth.


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## 5036

BobClay said:


> I had thought of cropping that picture so that only the top half was displayed, but yes that would have been wrong. That's a nice shade of green and without doubt the cleanest lathe I've ever seen. Of course this vessel is in the Royal Naval Museum in Portsmouth.


Should that read "Royal Naval Museum in Gosport."? 

Amazing place and well worth a visit. We had a tour from one of the original crew. Sent shivers down my spine, I dived in LR3, a fibreglass mini-sub then owned by Fred Olson Oceanics which is also there.

Before we closed the hatch for a dive we set a clockwork cooking timer to twenty minutes, set the barometer to surface pressure, closed the hatch and carried on with the pre-dive checks. Before we even got into the water, the alarm went off. Without thinking you reset the alarm to twenty minutes, turned on a fan which you timed to 90 seconds which dragged the whole atmosphere of the two metre diameter sphere through some crystals which took out all the CO2. The bell pressure dropped so you turned on a little needle valve that replenished the atmosphere with pure oxygen until the barometer matched surface pressure. And that continued every twenty minutes for up to fourteen hours. If you didn't do it, you died. Simple. That was engineering and that's what you did.

ps I worked in the Pisces boats which were positively primitive and I was told by the old hands that on the original boats the observer hung onto a rope that held the hatch shut until the water pressure forced a seal. I was fortunate that P8 and P10 had latches.

pps I hate the water and I can't swim. Not that it would have been a help.


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## Dickyboy

BobClay said:


> I took this also in a submarine.
> 
> To an engineer, this is heaven.
> 
> To a Sparky (or at least what they might have become since) this is something that needs to be replaced by some computers and several thousand sensors and activators. (Oh, and a reliable power source.)
> 
> [=P]


All I can see is noise, lots and lots of noise.


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## BobClay

Have to admit that's the only time I've been on a submarine. (In Gosport/Portsmouth/sumwhere darn sarf.)

Generally speaking during my time at sea on Merchant Ships the better plan was to stay on the surface of the sea rather than go below it. Having been through that sub (HMS Alliance) I'm filled with admiration for those who chose to do that.

It is an engineers world for sure, and as you say, well worth a visit.

What I'd like to do now is visit a modern nuclear submarine in the same way, but I suspect I'm not going to live long enough for one of those to appear in a museum.


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## BobClay

Dickyboy said:


> All I can see is noise, lots and lots of noise.


The engine room on that sub is fitted with speakers which make engine noises as part of the 'atmosphere.' Quite normal practice in museums (at Bletchley they have a speaker under a bush in front of the mansion that periodically makes BSA Motorcycle noises to mimic the constant flow of despatch riders back in the day.) 

However something tells me the real time decibel level in the sub was just a tad higher than those of that speaker. (EEK)


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## Supern

Goodness me its a bit of fun, can you lot not laugh at yourselves, take life so seriously. It depicts young engineers having fun, fun have you all forgot what that is. I have been to sea on submarine as well as with my husband. I had fun when I was young and I still have fun and laugh, so come on this too serious. If you find it crap well then you have the problem ha ha.


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## Sebe

Supern said:


> Goodness me its a bit of fun, can you lot not laugh at yourselves, take life so seriously. It depicts young engineers having fun, fun have you all forgot what that is. I have been to sea on submarine as well as with my husband. I had fun when I was young and I still have fun and laugh, so come on this too serious. If you find it crap well then you have the problem ha ha.


Well said! (Thumb)


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## uisdean mor

*Fun*



Supern said:


> Goodness me its a bit of fun, can you lot not laugh at yourselves, take life so seriously. It depicts young engineers having fun, fun have you all forgot what that is. I have been to sea on submarine as well as with my husband. I had fun when I was young and I still have fun and laugh, so come on this too serious. If you find it crap well then you have the problem ha ha.


Indeed Supern. Well said. It was fun and a sense of adventure that got us into and out of all sorts of scrapes but which also formed us as adults into reasonable and tolerant beings. You keep on having fun and I will join you when i can. (Applause)


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## Tony Morris

(Thumb)


Supern said:


> Goodness me its a bit of fun, can you lot not laugh at yourselves, take life so seriously. It depicts young engineers having fun, fun have you all forgot what that is. I have been to sea on submarine as well as with my husband. I had fun when I was young and I still have fun and laugh, so come on this too serious. If you find it crap well then you have the problem ha ha.


Can't agree more(Thumb)


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## sternchallis

A.D.FROST said:


> View attachment 155649


Was that a Wally Trickett special, from back of the oil book.


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## 5036

Supern said:


> Goodness me its a bit of fun, can you lot not laugh at yourselves, take life so seriously. It depicts young engineers having fun, fun have you all forgot what that is. I have been to sea on submarine as well as with my husband. I had fun when I was young and I still have fun and laugh, so come on this too serious. If you find it crap well then you have the problem ha ha.


God bless you!


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## James_C

That dit about Engineers is actually a variation on another old dit about Seamen in general.
I quote:

"THE SEAMAN. 
Between the inner sense of infancy and the recklessness of humanity there is a being known as the seaman. 
A seaman can be found in bars, in arguments, in bed, in debt and intoxicated. 
They are tall, short, fat, thin, dark, fair but never normal. 
They hate ships food, chief engineers, writing letters, sailing on fridays and dry ships. 
They like getting mail, pay off day, nude pin ups, sympathy, complaining and beer. 
The seaman's secret ambition is to change places with the shipowner, to own a brewery and to be loved by everyone. 
A seaman is Sir Galahad in a brothel, a pyschoanalyst with a Readers Digest on the table, Don Quixote with a Discharge Book, the saviour of mankind with his back teeth awash, Valentino with a fiver in his hand and democracy personified in a Red Chinese prison. 
A seaman is a provider in war and a parasite in peacetime. 
No one is subjected to so much abuse, wrongly accused so often and misunderstood by so many. 
He has the patience of a saint, the honesty of a fool, and the heaven-sent ability to laugh at himself. 
When he returns home from a long voyage no one but a seamen can create such an atmosphere as he walks through the door and utter those magic words 'I'm home, get your gear off and have you got the beer in? 
And when he has told of his adventures and his money is spent, he sadly says farewell and returns to sea once again. 
I was one of those GREAT MEN."

I've seen a few variations of the above, but they're all very similar. Often seen in many different ships and in different companies, usually typed out and posted on the bulkhead in the bar for the appreciation of those who actually had a sense of humour and was not a professional misery - unlike some of the obvious perennial whingers who've posted on this thread. 
I'm in no doubt those same shall find some contrived and convoluted way to be offended regardless - they must have been a barrel of laughs on a long trip.


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## funnelstays

BobClay said:


> I took this also in a submarine.
> 
> To an engineer, this is heaven.
> 
> To a Sparky (or at least what they might have become since) this is something that needs to be replaced by some computers and several thousand sensors and activators. (Oh, and a reliable power source.)
> 
> [=P]


How the Friar Tuck did they get the main engine in the workshop?


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## BobClay

funnelstays said:


> How the Friar Tuck did they get the main engine in the workshop?


Two main engines in the workshop ..... :sweat:


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## jg grant

To answer, an engineer is a tradesmen who usually served his apprenticeship in a shipyard but I have known some who worked in the pits. Never figured that one out. In essence, he is part of the crew, and without him the ship would not function. A bit like everyone else aboard really. Nothing more or less. Some I knew could kick a ball but.


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## A.D.FROST

jg grant said:


> To answer, an engineer is a tradesmen who usually served his apprenticeship in a shipyard but I have known some who worked in the pits. Never figured that one out. In essence, he is part of the crew, and without him the ship would not function. A bit like everyone else aboard really. Nothing more or less. Some I knew could kick a ball but.


You left out sewing machine engineers at least they worked on a shaft 6" dia (pit prop) at the pit, they must have had one(LOL)


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## Ron Stringer

Not a sewing machine maintainer but I sailed with a junior engineer who had served his apprenticeship in the jute mills of Dundee. I don't know if he was a good engineer but he was great fun at parties, both around the UK coast and deep sea. 

Made for a great ship-mate (as opposed to ship's Mate).


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## chadburn

jg grant said:


> To answer, an engineer is a tradesmen who usually served his apprenticeship in a shipyard but I have known some who worked in the pits. Never figured that one out. In essence, he is part of the crew, and without him the ship would not function. A bit like everyone else aboard really. Nothing more or less. Some I knew could kick a ball but.


Would this be after National Service ended?


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## JohnBP

Original post was/is "rubbish". Who died in WW2 when the torpedo struck, the engineers on watch. Who died keeping the lights on and the bilge pumps running when the Titanic sank, all 22 engineers. its a tough lonely life.


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## sternchallis

Ron Stringer said:


> Not a sewing machine maintainer but I sailed with a junior engineer who had served his apprenticeship in the jute mills of Dundee. I don't know if he was a good engineer but he was great fun at parties, both around the UK coast and deep sea.
> 
> Made for a great ship-mate (as opposed to ship's Mate).


We used to have a saying, " He was magic in the Bar, but b****y useless down below". Maybe that applied in his case.

One ship I was on as a fledgling 2nd Engineer, I only had a 3rd & 4th and a cadet. All good engineers, but this brand new ship was falling apart and all 3 generators needed work on the plus the main engine (still under guarrantee). The Radio Officer volunteered his services helping the lads on the generators whilst I worked on the ME.
He said he would be bored stiff whilst in Bridgetown or Port of Spain and it would give him a thirst for the evening. He did a good job and was a great help.
Jim Horsburgh a Macaroni man.


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## Supern

Thank you to all that get it, engineers worked very hard, they were very good at their job but that does not mean they could not also enjoy themselves. The ones who were form 60's to the 80's had the fun before we had to consider terrorists, and lock everything down. There was freedom for fun. Now there is no freedom for fun and that is so sad. No parties on the ships anymore, lock down of this and that. Those of us born after the war we are the lucky ones we had good jobs, and fun. Cannot see today.


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## jg grant

Hello chad #43 , could you clarify the question?


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## sternchallis

Despite all the lock downs I don't think ships are in port long enough to organise or even hold a party.
Unlike those good old days when you were 2 months on the Kiwi or Aussie coast, parties several times a week to the early hours of the morning, then turning to at 9 am for a day of pulling units or running up or down a 6 hatch ship working cargo in the 2nd & 3rd mates case. You were glad to have a night between ports or going back deep sea just for an early night from the partying.
No doubt the ************** and forced draught jobs are telling their grandchildren about the parties on the Star, Port and Savill boats in their youth.


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## chadburn

jg grant said:


> Hello chad #43 , could you clarify the question?


When National Service ended a number of Ships Engineers and Deck people called it a day and left their positions without warning in some cases, there was difficulty in recruiting and the net was widened. The situation was fine for us who stayed at sea as the promotion ladder opened up although it sometimes meant changing Companies as I did.


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## spongebob

In NZ the prerequisite for going to sea as an engineer was five years apprenticeship in a certified heavy engineering workshop. These included the Devonport Naval Dockland , Mason Brothers, Seagar bros, and United Repair in Auckland, the Railway workshops around NZ , plus similar companies in other main ports. Other shops were rated as 4/5ths time shops and required the apprentice to serve additional time at a fully rated shop. 
I joined NZ Shipping co's Rangitane as junior engineer in 1957 and although I had received a thorough training at the Naval Dockyard as a civilian apprentice , Including total rebuilds of Loch Class frigate stream engines and high speed Diesel engines ,plus time in the machine shop, the refrigeration shop and the drawing office , I became a complete novice when confronted with a pair of six cylinder Doxfords. 
Never the less the training eventually shines through, the big flogging spanners, the heavy lifts, the taking of leads , accurate dimensional readings to check for wear etc and life went on.
When the ship sailed from London I was still the junior/ 3rd freezer engineer as we were carrying chilled cargo to NZ but there were replacements in all ranks, a new second and three new juniors , two from Midlands weaving or spinning mills who initially viewed the engine room with complete awe. 
Were the British shipping hard up for engineering crew then? I later found that the NZ Union Co was recruiting certificated engineers and mates from the British Merchant. Service due to severe shortages on the NZ coast and in fact the ship Navua waited in Lyttelton for 24 or more hours awaiting the arrival of a C/E flying in from the UK prior to us sailing for Melbourne. 
One 2/E on my ship was met on arrival in port by a 'Blue Boat' at the Auckland harbour entrance waiting to transfer him to another vessel in stream ready to depart. As I recall there were shortages all around in NZ even in 1950's.
One lad who joined my ship as a first tripper had served his time with the biggest shop in Christchurch but when helping me to take leads of a main engine bottom end he innocently asked it they were in there to take up the slack! A leg pull? no he had never seen it done before but he turned out to be a competent engineer once he settled in . 
It takes all sorts to man a ship.

Bob


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## chadburn

Let me put it this way Bob, there were a number of people in the M.N. who were draft dodging and not just the Engineers. You were liable for Call Up between the age of 18 to 23 and although the Labour Office had no Computers in those days they knew exactly where you were ashore or afloat. When they called a halt to N.S. in 1960 (although men were still doing N.S. after that year) it was the starting gun for those who wanted to come ashore usually at the 'request' of their Wives, employment prospects ashore were very good for time served Engineers around that time.
Because of this the net had to be widened to industries that were not considered previously for the supply of Ships Engineers.
I have always thought that with B.P. Tankers being partly owned by HMG they were made aware of the plans for the end date of N.S. sometime before and started the Sandwich Cadet programme in preparation for the foreseen losses.


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## A.D.FROST

Never a true a word.You can't judge a engineer by the size of his shifter


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## 5036

Last night I took my son and 16 of his friends (and our wee dog) out to dinner to celebrate his 21st birthday. It was a major milestone in my life. We lost his mum and his sister to cancer 18 years ago and raising him on my own has given me so much pride and pleasure. 
There were equal numbers of girls and guys, two of the guys were German, one girl was Swiss. All are doing engineering degrees at Strathclyde University. All are in the keelboat sailing team and have competed across Europe in major regattas. Having been out with them all before, having had them all crew for me as skipper on many occasions I see the same old bonds and ties and lust for life that we seafaring folk had when we were of that age. There are no barriers at sea and engineers seem to play and work that little bit harder and in doing so know when to conform but more often when to go outside the box.
As the evening drew on I knew, as Chief, when it was time to retire, close the door and reflect with a fine 20 year old. I didn't want to know and hoped the morning would not end up with a visit to a police station to use diplomacy, guile or sweeteners to extract the miscreants and not delay sailing.


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## twogrumpy

Call me old fashioned, but I always thought an engineer was someone who had been to uni. and gained a degree, or at least an HNC or HND, which possibly held more currency in days gone by than they do today.

Many employers tag Engineer on the end of a job description when the more suitable technician should probably be used.

Where I served my time they covered all courses from C & G up to HND, in all naval dockyard trades/skills, if you were really really clever,they sponsored you through university and you could end up being a member of the Royal Corp of Naval Constructors, the peak of shipbuilding and repair, this of course in the day when we actually built and maintained a large quantity of ships.

This is quite entertaining, paragraph 2 "The Merch" gets a mention. http://portsmouthdockyard.org.uk/A Dockyard Apprentice in the 60s (2).pdf

Of course there was the old time worn joke. Q: How many people work in Portsmouth Dockyard? A: About twenty of them.


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## BobClay

Perhaps it's just me, but I sailed with many very good what at the time were referred to as 'professional third engineers' who could run rings around their superiors in terms of the job, but had psyched themselves into going no further. I think a great failing of the industry at the time. And I'm saying this as an electronics officer on ships where the lecky had been removed by the bean counters of that era.


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## sternchallis

Twogrumpy: The Portsmouth apprentice was very interesting, reminds me of my first 15 months on a Shipbuilding Industry Training Board course at Selby , West Yorkshire. 
We had all the trades to design and build a ship and outfit it almost.
Naval Architects, draughtsmen, loftsmen, boilermakers and platers, fitters coppersmiths and brass finishers electricians, but the college did not have the funds to do such a large project.
All the lecturers had been craftsmen in their time, unlike present day school 'resistive material teachers' Woodwork and Metalwork , to you and I, who have never picked up a hammer and chisel (or rapped their knuckles with the hammer) in anger to earn a living.

When I went back to my company, the first thing they issued you with was a 2lb hammer and cold chisel, the rest you bought yourself.
Very little time was spent bench fitting, but outside on the trawlers repairing steam and diesel engines, plus winters spent in the freezing dry dock bottom wathing the fitters and labourers remove the props and rudders for survey. Drawing out the brass and lignum vitea stern tube bush for re-wooding.
By it was b****y cold up in Hull with an Easterly wind off the Russian Steppes, blowing down the dry dock, being in an east/west location.
They used to use a series of hammer taps on the hull to signify in /out, ahead/astern. The best was 7 , which was Tea Up!!
Or smoko in Merch parlance.
Despite all the standing watching except in the last year, it is surprising what you learnt and joined your first ship as jnr, alongside a jnr from a sewing mc factory.

I remember we were coasting round from Avonmouth to Liverpool and the 2nd asked what engines had I experience of, so I reeled off half a dozen makes, non of which we had on the ship (probably surprised him as well). She was a Harland & Wolf flying bedstead with NA Ruston generators, neither of which I had worked on, but could relate to the Rustons. But a flying bedstead, what a sight to behold to see that running at 4 am coming down the ER ladders, with the smell of hot oil and steam.
I ended up having 6 marvelous months on there, my first trip.
As the only junior I was on day work with the 2nd and helped him draw his sausages and work them out.
Must go now, we are off foxtrotting and walzting this evening.


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## jmirvine

Ron Stringer said:


> Not a sewing machine maintainer but I sailed with a junior engineer who had served his apprenticeship in the jute mills of Dundee. I don't know if he was a good engineer but he was great fun at parties, both around the UK coast and deep sea.
> 
> Made for a great ship-mate (as opposed to ship's Mate).


I also served my apprenticeship in the jute mills of Dundee before joining the MN. It was good training for a Lecky and I enjoyed my time at sea. 

There isn't one jute mill left in Dundee these days. Of the 4 that I worked in, (South Mills group), 2 have been flattened and houses built on the site. The other 2 have been gutted and converted to flats!

I saw what was happening to the tanker fleet in 1974/75 and was able to transfer to the offshore side where I remained for the rest of my career.

Not a bad life all round.


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## chadburn

As part of their Apprenticeship lads had to go for HND or C&G by their employers by means of day release to the local College now known as a University.


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## Supern

Of course there are variations and this thread is a real eye opener. So many posters feel that such a ditty is a reflection of them for some reason. All it is is a bit of fun and I also have the ancient mariner ditty as well. My late husband had a great sense of humor and he was a very good engineer as were his friends. However we laughed and had fun.

To the person who posted about ************** that is not acceptable these days and they young ladies are probably grandmothers now and I am sure that they are not discussing what went on in their youth. Look back in fondness, and do not judge and look down on people its not acceptable these days its not politically correct.


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## jg grant

Chad #49 . I agree there must have been draft dodgers. I would have missed it personally but by that time , at seventeen I had been around the world. Walked on the beach at Waikiki , been terribly used by a girl in Japan , pissed in Oz paid off in Liverpool. Like many MN crew in those days we did far more than two years NS. Remember too, that the BMN was larger than the the rest of the worlds merchant fleet combined, so there was a need for us. God we were so noble !!


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## Varley

What! Not **************? What would the politically correct terminology be then? Pertly buttocked bush-tottie formerly known as bunny? There was no political correctitude in times nostalgic and those are the times we recall here. 

Perhaps 'engineer' could also be defined as someone who can define a problem in a precise and efficient manner without deliberately introducing semi-translucent verbiage to conform with fashion.


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## twogrumpy

#56 

So much to agree with in that post, the old Yards used to cover much more than actual hull construction, we even had guns and missiles.

"When I went back to my company, the first thing they issued you with was a 2lb hammer and cold chisel, the rest you bought yourself".

Our lot gave you a tool box and an assortment of files which we were sick of the sight of after 6 months filing.

As for purchasing your own tools, when I started in Chatham we were encouraged to buy our own tools from Naval Stores, and yes they all had the good old crows foot marking. This I feel encouraged respect and care of the equipment, on arriving in Portsmouth I asked about the procedure for buying tools and I was looked at as if I had just arrived from Mars, the attitude in the two ports was totally different.

The method of selection I went through was much as described, the blackboard with list of trades and the numbers required in each trade. I was lucky, they wanted 10 electrical fitters, I had come ninth in the exam, so YAY I got what I wanted.

#58 
Not sure college was considered compulsory, though lack of interest was certainly frowned upon, as I found out. After so many years in education I wanted to get out on the job.

As for **************, were they not from West Africa, and while not having enjoyed the experience, were the ones on the Aussie/Kiwi coast known as Ring Bolts.
There was a yarn that did the rounds that one of our mighty ships had a change of orders, with the old man having to do an emergency port call to discharge the passengers.(LOL)


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## chadburn

M.L. probably depended on the Company.


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## sternchallis

# I believe Ring Bolt(er)s were those ************** or JB's that had stowed away between Kiwi ports. They would probably do the same on another ship to get back home, or perhaps they were of 'no fixed abode', they would be fed by the crew as there was always plenty of food.
As soon as the phone was connected up to the ship, it would be ringing, some female asking if there was a 'party on the Star boat'? Especially if you were coming in foreign.
First night the officers bar used to get the forced draught and heavy lift jobs, white trash that could drink anybody under the table on spirits. 
After a couple of nights of their doubtful company, we would call up the local nurses home or the telephone exchange and much more pleasant girls would come down.
There was the old chestnut, when a girl would say, "I have never been on a ship before, but isn't your weather step high", or "Your back spring is looking a bit slack".


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## twogrumpy

Sadly serving on tankers, we rarely got the chance to sample many of the delights you cargo men were able to partake of.

Well, most of the time.(Pint)

Where the ******* did I go wrong.


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## sternchallis

twogrumpy said:


> Sadly serving on tankers, we rarely got the chance to sample many of the delights you cargo men were able to partake of.
> 
> Well, most of the time.(Pint)
> 
> Where the ******* did I go wrong.


Sailing on tankers!

I almost went down to London to BP in 1967/8 for an interview to be an gadget, but decided against it. Then when coming out of my time was writing round companies for a job as JEng. I went for an interview with Bibby's in Liverpool and could have had the job,( in fact after saying no, they sent a pleading letter, as I had medium speed diesel experience and they had a bunch of Paxmans dancing around the ER) they were paying much more than the cargo liner companies, but had bulkers, tankers and gas carriers going to such places as Northern Russia and other exotic mooring buoys in Africa and the Perishing Gulf, did I realy want that, no I wanted to see the world, which I did, often spending a week or two in one port, the most was 6 weeks in Wellington , Kiwi and 9 weeks on the coast discharging and loading. I had heard horror stories from ex apprentices who had sailed with Ben and Clan lines, BI to India and Far East.
We had clean fast ships 18-20 knots to quite civilised places, even Argentina and Brazil, South Africa back to the UK. When the company changed some ships to Reefer Tramping we saw the other side of the coin, like Guyaquila for bananas, but that was just a few days load, all by hand, no cranes: up a creek in the Philipines for bananas for Iran. Was able to take out a lifeboat in the Shat-el-Arab anchorage weather permitting, to go ship visiting, swopping films, beer and cargo ( bananas or frozen lamb).
We lived the life of Riley.


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## chadburn

twogrumpy said:


> Sadly serving on tankers, we rarely got the chance to sample many of the delights you cargo men were able to partake of.
> 
> Well, most of the time.(Pint)
> 
> Where the ******* did I go wrong.


Wanting to fly at 30,000ft without an Aircraft, in the 1960's there seemed to be Tankers exploding at an alarming rate, to hell with that I thought but better than the liquid sulpher carriers I reckoned.


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## Supern

Varley said:


> What! Not **************? What would the politically correct terminology be then? Pertly buttocked bush-tottie formerly known as bunny? There was no political correctitude in times nostalgic and those are the times we recall here.
> 
> Perhaps 'engineer' could also be defined as someone who can define a problem in a precise and efficient manner without deliberately introducing semi-translucent verbiage to conform with fashion.


If only the younger gen could understand. Now we have to watch our ps and qs, some of us that is not me.


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## A.D.FROST

sternchallis said:


> # I believe Ring Bolt(er)s were those ************** or JB's that had stowed away between Kiwi ports. They would probably do the same on another ship to get back home, or perhaps they were of 'no fixed abode', they would be fed by the crew as there was always plenty of food.
> As soon as the phone was connected up to the ship, it would be ringing, some female asking if there was a 'party on the Star boat'? Especially if you were coming in foreign.
> First night the officers bar used to get the forced draught and heavy lift jobs, white trash that could drink anybody under the table on spirits.
> After a couple of nights of their doubtful company, we would call up the local nurses home or the telephone exchange and much more pleasant girls would come down.
> There was the old chestnut, when a girl would say, "I have never been on a ship before, but isn't your weather step high", or "Your back spring is looking a bit slack".


How come the Shore Side Bosun used to be the BIG fat and hugely one and had to be serviced to keep the party going(I got sick of rigging a Block and Tackle and having to attach a 4by4 to my Rs to stop falling in)(Hippy)


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## sternchallis

Now theres a ************.


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## John Jarman

A.D.FROST said:


> How come the Shore Side Bosun used to be the BIG fat and hugely one and had to be serviced to keep the party going(I got sick of rigging a Block and Tackle and having to attach a 4by4 to my Rs to stop falling in)(Hippy)


She said "Did you take any precautions?".

I said "Yes, I tied my Rs to the bedpost".

JJ.


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## Supern

sternchallis said:


> # I believe Ring Bolt(er)s were those ************** or JB's that had stowed away between Kiwi ports. They would probably do the same on another ship to get back home, or perhaps they were of 'no fixed abode', they would be fed by the crew as there was always plenty of food.
> As soon as the phone was connected up to the ship, it would be ringing, some female asking if there was a 'party on the Star boat'? Especially if you were coming in foreign.
> First night the officers bar used to get the forced draught and heavy lift jobs, white trash that could drink anybody under the table on spirits.
> After a couple of nights of their doubtful company, we would call up the local nurses home or the telephone exchange and much more pleasant girls would come down.
> There was the old chestnut, when a girl would say, "I have never been on a ship before, but isn't your weather step high", or "Your back spring is looking a bit slack".


So were you successful with these young ladies. Yes we had ring bolters on the ship I was on with my husband but you know they were just like men, take what you please and maybe they were the real women who had equality, not the little woman sitting home waiting. A lot of them probably got married and had very successful marriages because their husband's treat them as equal just like mine did and we were married for forty years until unfortunately death us do part.


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## A.D.FROST

Supern said:


> So were you successful with these young ladies. Yes we had ring bolters on the ship I was on with my husband but you know they were just like men, take what you please and maybe they were the real women who had equality, not the little woman sitting home waiting. A lot of them probably got married and had very successful marriages because their husband's treat them as equal just like mine did and we were married for forty years until unfortunately death us do part.


OUCH!(Flowers) many a long trip made longer with the gift you did not want to give.


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## trotterdotpom

That "What is an Engineer?" screed was one of a series ... "What is a Captain?", "What is a Chief Steward?", "What is a Radio Officer?", etc. They were meant to be amusing - not sure why the mecanistas are getting so sensitive about it.

As far as I know, Black Ham were in Africa and JBs were in New Zealand. Maybe they were liberated, I dunno, I sort of think they were just up for a laugh and a load of free booze. Similar women appeared on the UK coast too - those were the days, what would we have done without them?

John T


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## Varley

We would have done without them exactly what we did do when we were without them!


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## trotterdotpom

That's very philosophic, David. No wonder I'm short sighted.

John T


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## A.D.FROST

Apparently on these crew less ships he's in a redbox on the bulk head with a hamer & shifter with a notice "Break Glass in an emergency" (egg)


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## 5036

My brother went for his morning constitutional on a newly docked Bluey in Liverpool and was slightly taken aback by an extreme JB coming out of a shower naked. 
"Have you never seen one of these before?" asked the well experienced lady with the lovely local accent.
"Not with teeth!" replied bro'.


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## A.D.FROST

Whist attending one of these Kiwi parties,one of the Australasia girls shouted at the top of her voice "I may not be a virgin,but I've still got the box it came in"While her sister was smothering the first trip cadet with her ample breasts, on gang watch "I eat first trippers for breakfest"(Frogger)


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## ianrobson36

What is an engineer, please go to page 5 of this list and read the engineroom poetry. it says everything you need to know.

Gingerbeer


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## colcur

chadburn said:


> As part of their Apprenticeship lads had to go for HND or C&G by their employers by means of day release to the local College now known as a University.


Three nights a week and a Saturday morning for my ONC course in Sunderland. The Saturday morning class was particularly disenchanting as it consisted of "Principles of Electricity" and "Calculus". Not even an early release from work to get to the college on time during the week. As a 17 year old, doing S2 of the ONC course it was a rude awakening to what adulthood entailed, but I got there and was exempt from some of the 2/E and C/E parts of my tickets.


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## ART6

I recall the time when I was not long from my seagoing career and newly-married. My new wife was experiencing some female problem that I couldn't understand, so I called out our GP. He was a particularly arrogant guy, and he carried out a cursory examination, checked her blood pressure, prescribed medication, and set off for the bedroom door. I asked what he thought was wrong with her and what the medication was supposed to do, but all I got was a supercilious glance and "You wouldn't understand if I told you."
I refused to let him out of the room until he did. He then with great patience explained what the blood pressure instrument did, and seemed rather surprised when I said that we engineers had been using similar instruments long before he did, and that it was we who had created them for him in the first place.
The row went on, with him insisting upon his superiority until I snapped "OK. I am just an engineer and could not be expected to understand you, but.....When you go into your surgery in the morning and click the light switch, what happens? When you take your car to be serviced do you know how that is done to allow you to drive to your next patient? All the instruments that you have in your surgery -- where did they magically come from? Who made them?
I recall a long simmer, then I said (something like) "The reality is, Doctor, that you can only do one thing, and you couldn't do that without the engineers in the power stations that give you light, or the mechanic that can fix your car, or the engineer who designed and made your tools. Without all of them you wouldn't have a job! So don't tell me what I wouldn't understand, because I might understand much more than you damned well do!"
We were assigned a new GP after that, and the departure of the earlier one was no loss!


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## tsell

I had to post this somewhere... I just returned from having a few beers with some mates, a couple of whom are former seamen.
Alec, a Scot and former ships engineer, always with a few jokes to tell said, "A group of us retired engineers, have formed an association," and looked around for a response.
I fell for it and asked, "Ok, what do you call it?"
Alec grinned and said, "What else, Association of Retired Ships Engineers." It took a couple of minutes for the penny to drop.
Dolly (surname Dolman) former radio officer, known for his quick wit said, "That's only half a name."
Alec asked him, "What would you call it then, Dolly?"
Dolly said, "Association of Retired Ships Engineers Having Overall Limitless Engineering Skills!"
Alec bought the next round!! (==D)

Taff


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## Barrie Youde

#83 

Dear Taff,

That is the most perfect bollox. The person with limitless skill at anything has yet to be born.

As to Art's claim (#82) that no medic could practice without the latest engineeered developments in modern instruments, that, too is bollox.

Remember the lines from Amazing Grace? " 'Tis grace has brought me safely here. 'Tis grace will see me home. "

Best wishes,

B


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## Varley

Barrie, You'd better join us alumni of the Fast Action Response Team. Or perhaps just a bit too fast this time.

(Chairman, old FARTs)


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## Barrie Youde

#65 

Thank you, David.

Please sign me in.

Am I required to kiss your boots?


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## Varley

Dear me, no, Barrie. Given the topic it is position more to be ventilated than venerated. We are satisfied when occasionally we elicit a passing compliment on our remaining abilities from the youngsters.


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## Barrie Youde

#87 

Thank you, David.

This reminds me of a trip to New York in 2006. I endure a hearing problem; and the long flight had exacerbated a build-up of wax in my ears. I paid (through the nose) for a visit to a hospital to have my ears syringed. Upon successful completion I thanked the attractive young lady-medic, saying, "Thank You. I could kiss your feet!"

With a round turn I was brought into her PC world when she proclaimed - in a loud voice - "THAT WILL NOT BE NECESSARY!"


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## tsell

Barrie Youde said:


> #83
> 
> Dear Taff,
> 
> That is the most perfect bollox. The person with limitless skill at anything has yet to be born.
> 
> As to Art's claim (#82) that no medic could practice without the latest engineeered developments in modern instruments, that, too is bollox.
> 
> Remember the lines from Amazing Grace? " 'Tis grace has brought me safely here. 'Tis grace will see me home. "
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> B[/QUOTE
> 
> Barrie, the word used by Dolly for the sake of the acronym, was actually 'limited' but in deference to the gentle nature of our many engineering members, I chose to use the word 'limitless'! Sorry guys, but it didn't change the meaning!!
> (No correspondence will be entered into...)
> 
> Taff


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## GWB

Always remember when I sailed on the Southern Cross in the Tavern Bar the Deck Officers always told the the ladies they were Officers but Enginers replied we are Engineer Officers and Gentleman.


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## sternchallis

GWB said:


> Always remember when I sailed on the Southern Cross in the Tavern Bar the Deck Officers always told the the ladies they were Officers but Enginers replied we are Engineer Officers and Gentleman.


 And a find judge of the other.


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## Deepankar Choudhury

Engineers are responsible for the style and construction of seagoing veins and components, concentrating mainly on their internal techniques. Simply put, they style the onboard electrical, ecological and space techniques onboard everything from oil systems to cruise liners.


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## BobClay

I was watching a Star Trek film tonight in which Scotty (played with much gusto by Sean Pegg) returns to the Enterprise to find her cart wheeling through space, full of huge holes, lights out, systems failed everywhere, engines dead … an absolute catastrophe !!! 

He looks around and comments: "One day I've been off this ship. One bloody day !!!"

Now that's an engineer !! :sweat:


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## Engine Serang

Probably had a Scouser Second.


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## BobClay

Engine Serang said:


> Probably had a Scouser Second.


He had a funny looking small alien type fellah with him. He did look a bit like a scouser … (Jester)


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## Varley

Could he have needed a small Alien key?

(Off to EBAY Bob! you know where you left it.)


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## BobClay

I've been OUTJOKED !!! …. (again) … :sweat: (EEK)


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## Russ Lowdon

*The third engineer*








I found this among my Grandfather's papers, He was a C/E on board an old steamer ( triple expansion 3 leg'er and 2 scotch boilers) lost at sea during 2nd ww


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## Bill Morrison

While searching for some thing else I came across this. I have never heard it before but it seems to originate from around 1970.


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## Engine Serang

BobClay said:


> I've been OUTJOKED !!! …. (again) … :sweat: (EEK)


I prefer quantity to quality.


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## Engine Serang

Or is it the other way around?


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## uisdean mor

Bill Morrison said:


> While searching for some thing else I came across this. I have never heard it before but it seems to originate from around 1970.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZarYb3muqNg


Hi Bill, Here is a wee link to a related piece of work. I helped Margaret with some of the work - see - http://gracenotepublications.co.uk/...aught-us-skills-for-life-by-margaret-bennett/

Margaret is a folklorist and mother of Martyn Bennett of musical fame but sadly no longer with us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyn_Bennett 
I hope it is of interest. Rgds


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## Bill Morrison

uisdean mor said:


> Hi Bill, Here is a wee link to a related piece of work. I helped Margaret with some of the work - see - http://gracenotepublications.co.uk/...aught-us-skills-for-life-by-margaret-bennett/
> 
> Margaret is a folklorist and mother of Martyn Bennett of musical fame but sadly no longer with us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyn_Bennett
> I hope it is of interest. Rgds


Hi Big Hugh (I don't speak it.) Thanks for your reply I had noticed Margaret's publication while searching through the web for a song The Engineer. I think the original was recorded by Will Fyffe in the 1920's but this is the one I remember.
Regards Bill.


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## Deepankar Choudhury

An engineer who designs operates and maintains machinery and equipment used in ships, offshore installations, or elsewhere at sea.


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## douglasjamesmichael

Nice bit of humour....however as one of the Engineering fraternity...I would like to add that we are a breed that can make something out of nothing...with limited resources...as the AA or RAC do not do visits in the middle of the Atlantic.....However I have seen many many examples of the Deck side "bagging off" One interesting occasion in New York....the Old Man announced he was going to see a friend in Downtown Manhatten.....returning the following morning.....next trip the Old Man had his wife onboard...again we docked in New York.....The Mate asked if he could bring his girlfriend onboard for evening meal...it was agreed....As the Mate and his his girlfriend entered the Wardroom.....she (the girlfriend)looked over at the Old Man.....Hi John how are you? not coming over this trip.....????....Mrs Captain got up and went to their cabin followed by Capt. John.......I wish I had been a fly on the wall that night......the atmosphere was "frosty" the next morning.


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