# A dangerous game ?



## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

News is that the latest EU directive for maritime matters is to certfy crew members to be able to do tasks which are normally only associated to officers.

Some of these duties will include, loading and stowage of cargo, and some navigational tasks.

Although the UK Government has signed up for the agreement, they have, along with Trade Unions expressed their concern for allowing crew members to undertake such tasks.

Seems to me to be a case of "Do as Big Brother says".

Rushie


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Firstly, nice to see you back Rushie. News stories has bucked up again?!.

Yes, it could be very worrying if crew are able to do tasks which are normally only associated to officers. Another crazy EU directive on the face of it. But if properly managed, it may not be so crazy. For example during my era crew in general were far more experienced in lifeboat drill than they are today if recent cruises I have been on are anything to go by. This is because all crew whatever rank and department had the chance to take their lifeboat and steering ticket. Most took the lifeboat ticket only. I, although being a medic, was also deck department so after passing my lifeboat ticket, was given my own lifeboat on Arcadia which I also was cox of in anchor ports. I also did my steering ticket meaning I could steer the ship or take her into port if need be as well as launch the lifeboat and take it out. We were taught by officers on board, but exams were ashore except to final of steering ticket doing mine on Canberra and lifeboat exam in Hong Kong. These exams including navigation of course. Also in those days, unlike today, there were far more British(European) quartermasters etc who also steered the ship. Today, there are none on P&O at least. There are a few still on board, but do jobs once done by lower ranking European deck crew.

Therefore, if managed correctly I welcome this move because it would mean that more crew are better qualified in an energency something that has bothered me on modern cruise ships I have sailed on as passenger. As far as I know, crew are no longer given the chance to take their lifeboat or steering tickets. This could explain why drills are so poor these days except that is for Black Watch which I sailed on recently. The crew at passenger drill were far more profesional as I said in my report. However, whether any other than officers could launch and drive a lifeboat or the ships itself etc is another matter. The only worry would be if lesser trained crew took the place off officers. If this is to save money, then it is a worry just as it is in hospitals where other staff go on a short training course then take over jobs done by doctors. You simply cannot cut corners to save money be it at sea or on land. David


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

Cheers David,

I'm working full time in London at the moment and don't get the time I used to to post things, but will keep trying.!

Rushie.


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Like most things it could work if common sense is applied. There has been a similar argument about the division of labour between doctors and nurses going on for over a century. Many standard medical procedures can be carried out by properly trained nurses leaving the doctors to do the expert stuff. 

If it can work with medicine I don't see why the same should not apply on board ships.

The problem is that the driving force may be cost-cutting and that the required training is not provided. If that happens "there may be troubles ahead!".

Brian


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## jim barnes (Dec 7, 2005)

was tempted to put my spoke in but decided to shut up, can manage to get into trouble without assistance (lowly deck hand?)


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## Anchorman (Jan 13, 2006)

This idea could get messy if they decide to implement it the other way round. Just remind me how did I used to splice this B****** wire. (only joking)


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Brian, I don't want to stray from the shipping theme for fear of being told off, but being as brief as I can on a very contentious issue in reply to your comments above, the problem with medicine is it does always work when others take on something they were not properly trained for. Being properly trained in medical procedures takes years. I could tell you stories that would make your hair curl. A standard medical procedure is not always as standard as you think because so many things can go wrong. It took me 5 years just to qualify in a specialised area, and another 5 to say I had a bit of experience. I taught anatomy and applied anatomy etc in situ on dead people to medical students, nurses and other medical professionals some already trained such as nurses. They were all good at theory, but when I put a scapel in their hands it was a different story. Believe me, there are horrendous mistakes being made daily that rarely if ever make the headlines, and many of these were due to standard procedures carried out by less qualified staff or something not spotted by less qualified staff meaning that those who were qualified to deal with it at source were not called in time. I have seen things I cannot discuss in public for confidential and other reasons, but if you knew what they were, you would understand that being properly trained takes years. There is no such thing as a simple procedure allowing doctors to concentrate on expert stuff. This is why the NHS is a bigger mess than ever now because the wrong people are put in jobs they are not properly trained for to try and save money. Lives are being lost as a result of an NHS in deep crisis. 

Anyway, I had better get back to shipping matters having said my bit!. 

At sea, it is slightly different, certainly from my era. Many stewards for example became very competent coxswains ferrying passengers to and from the ship in anchor ports, and some passed steering tickets. However, although they had people lives at stake in once sense, it is far different to treating patients or picking up a scalpel or some other medical procedure which seems simple on the surface, but can become a nightmare. David


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

David, I think that the analogy that Brian was trying to make is where a nursing sister of 30 years experience has to show a junior houseman how to do the job, even though technically the 'doctor' is 'more qualified' - My own sister, now retired, often found herself in that position.
On board ship it can be related to an old and senior deck hand having a huge amount of practical skill, but not many tickets, being able to suggest a suitable course of action to his senior officer. This happens in many many jobs.
If the objective is to give everyone the chance to either show their skill, or show that they will never be able to aquire such skills, then it is a good idea.
If, however, the idea follows what we have grown used to: i.e. The skill level is reduced to meet the lowest candidate, then it should be resisted at all costs.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Clockman, I know what you mean. Of course a nurse with years of experience will know more in general than a junior houseman, but that is not my point. And sadly, because this is a shipping and not medical site, I cannot explain fully what I mean. David


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## John Briggs (Feb 12, 2006)

I am a bit like Jim Barnes on this one - very wary of sticking my oar into murky waters. Let me just say that managed properly it could work very well indeed. This is one of the major principles behind bridge resource management - every single person on the bridge from the master to the deck boy can contribute in a valuable way to the safety of navigation. The master should not be considered to be infallible and should be challenged (challenge in the BRM context) if any person on that bridge has doubts about his intentions.

I could go on for hours about the competence of various people on board. In my opinion it does not come down to rank, it comes down to the individual person. For that reason a regulation saying, for example, that an ordinary seaman can keep a radar watch is doomed to failure. However if the regulation is worded to say that if the master considers it safe then an OS can...etc. the regulation could work very well. 

I have been ashore for some years now and may be completely out of touch but in my days the master was very aware of the competence of his crew. There were some officers (fully qualified) that you worried about when leaving them alone on the bridge and there were some seamen in whom you had full confidence in many situations. I see no problem in training seamen for various bridge watchkeeping duties provided it is done with a bit of common sense. I have probably said enough to get myself into all sorts of trouble and I have not said enough to fully explain my thinking on this complex subject - so be it!


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

A great post John, you have not said anything to get yourself into trouble. The shipping industry need people of your vast experience. I know things have changed today, you only have to go on the bridge of a modern ship to see that, but experience is priceless in any era. David


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## Brad (Oct 11, 2006)

I reckon its a great idea. Ever sailed with good crews from the Phillipines before? Some of them are quite capable of putting a position on the chart, and really - with everyone banging on about fatigue management these days, a more equal division of labour would have to be a good thing. At sea I always value an experienced Bosun or AB far more than I would a pimply faced boy standing watch as 3rd Mate for his first trip.

The only thing I worry about is accountability. If the Ratings are to start to take on work traditionally associated with Officers, then will they also take on the responsibility when things go pear-shaped? UNtil they get that sorted you'll probably find Ratings doing the work and the officers running around behind them closely checking whats been done and finding themselves thinking "I might as well have done this all myself anyway"


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## PAULD (Sep 6, 2006)

its happening all over part trained people doing part of a job, and thats the problem when it goe's t*t* up they don't know what to do, and some other poor sod gets a s**t cart dropped in their lap and is expected to sort it out


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## PollY Anna (Sep 4, 2006)

I agree with John. On a personal note I think there are too many people sitting on their backsides in Brussels coming up with ideas on things that possibly they are one step removed from reality!

As a 1960 Deck Hand of various ranks I had to go through a process of being supervised on my steering by officers of the watch and when I paid off I had to obtain from the Master a note to the effect that I had done 10hrs Min. on the wheel. That did not tell the whole story, but I don't think in those days any skipper would have signed his name to a note for the shipping office if he thought that the person in question was not up to it.

I then had to serve a min. amount of time, ie as apprenticeship, before I could take my life boat ticket and my E.D.H tickets. It was so comprehensive that I could have launched a Lifeboat by myself.

So from reading the above articles it seems that the training has gone only one way, south. The above tickets were obtained in St Katharine's Dock, still remember sailing a life boat under sail round an empty dock.


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