# MV Woolwich Watts Watts Co



## theaskew

Can anyone help,I am looking for a photo of
the MV Woolwich.I joined the ship as deckboy in Hull
In 1955.I would be obliged If anyone has any Information
about the ship or company Watts Watts.
Regards Artie


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## sparkie2182

my first navigation teacher was a master with watts watts and co.
his name was captain harry freeland. he died two years ago and is now buried in barrow.
harry was sunk 6 times between 1939 and 1945.

best regards........

sparkie2182


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## Geoff Garrett

Hello Artie,
I have a photograph of MV Woosung, purchased from Watts Watts by The China Navigation Co.Ltd. and which I believe was the former Watts Watts Woolwich and in which I served as Chief Mate in 1972-73. CNCo in fact purchased 3 vessels of this class those being the renamed Woosung-Wenchow and Wanlui.

Formerly, Woolwich-Wendover-Wanstead, ugly sons of *****es, (for wont of better adjectives) but excellent cargo ships.

If this indeed is the vessel you are looking for then email me with your postal address and I shall work out some way of getting a copy of my Woosung to you.
Rgds,
Geoff G.


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## Billy1963

Cargo ship Woolwich, 7,669grt built in 1955 was the third ship carrying that name owned by the Britain SS Co. (Watts, Watts & Co. Ltd) The ship was sold to Bulgaria in 1962 and renamed Luben Karavelov. She was scrapped at Slit in 1976.

V.H. Young and L.A. Sawyer Black and White ship negative collection has a photo of her for sale under the latter name.

http://www.ship-photos.dynamic-site...h_value=Luben+Karavelov&Submit=Display+Format


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## gdynia

Artie
Send me a PM with a contact Email address and I will forward you on a photo


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## R58484956

MV Wanstead 5664 tons built 1949 by Caledon SB Co;Dundee. 454.2 x 64.3 x 22.2. One 5 cyl diesel by Scotts S B, Greenock. DF,ESD,GYc, Radar.Code flags GFLS Registered London British flags. Owned by Watts Watts & Co Ltd.(managers)

MV Wendover same as above except built 1950 and code flags GFML


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## theaskew

Thank you Sparkie-Geoff-Billy,for your reply's & Information
on Watts Watts Co.
Thank you Gdynia for photo of Mv Woolwich it's agreat picture,
I really appreciate it.My first ship in MN.
Regards Artie


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## gdynia

Artie
Your more than welcome


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## theaskew

Thank you R58484956 for the Info' on Watts Watts Co
Artie


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## R58484956

All part of the service we provide for each other. Thanks


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## slick

All,
For Geoff Garrett, the MV Woosung was in fact the MV Woodford, in 1964 Mitsubishi Dockyard Engineers were surprised when thay came to alter the name as when they sliced the ---DFORD off the hull, the letters were found to be bronze and copper riveted to the hull, something of a dilemma I believe if memory serves that they were replaced with ---SUNG in bronze. The letters were polished, lacquered and edged in red.
A fabulous class of ships winners of the first ship to Montreal(?) on a couple(?) of occasions, silver topped canes all round!!
Yours aye,
Slick


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## stores

hi, my brother was on woolwich, i was on wanstead, can send full photos of woolwich, either by email or prints by post if you send address, stores.


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## stores

hi ,the 3 sold to china were of the wanstead class, totally different to woolwich, windsor and wokingham.they were wendover, woodford, wanstead, stores


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## stores

hi i have lots of photos of watts watts ships, over 40 different ships, about 100 photos, from 1905 to last one, allways willing to help anyone who requires a picture, maybe someone out there can help me aquire 2 i dont have, SAMOLAND AND FORT AUGUSTUS, both managed by watts watts in world war two, cheers, stores.


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## Geoff Garrett

"stores": Just a small point, the wanstead class were not "sold to china", they in fact maintained their British registry after being sold to London shipowners John Swire & Sons and for their wholly owned China Navigation Co.Ltd., being managed from their Hong Kong office.

Rgds,
Geoff.


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## sparkie2182

i am sorry my post concerning captain harry freeland was not really on topic.....
but i just wanted to bring his memory to bear on a site he would have loved.
he served his time with blue funnel......but..... command was a "dead mans shoes" situation. harry was somewhat more ambitious than that.
he took a masters position with watts. watts and co....and sailed through w.w.2 with them.

at his funeral, the vicar produced an old ..."sepia" coloured piece of paper,given to him by harrys family, and explained that it was a letter of commendation from an american navy commodore....to harry, sent to him from the u.s. during the war years.
his ship was so shot up...in a dreadfull state ....upon reaching american waters from the u.k......that it was not considered possible by the u.s. navy for it to be seaworthy for the return to the u.k...repaired and loaded with vital supplies....in time for its alloted convoy back across the atlantic.
harry freeland made sure his ship was fully seaworthy.....loaded....and ready to sail.....as required.....(as anyone who knew him would have expected)....in time.....and ready to take the dangerous voyage home...irrespective of what was thrown at him and his ship.
this was what the letter was about......a real commendation.
between 1939 and 1945........he was sunk 6 times.

he later became port pilot in aden and rangoon........and subsequently settled in the u.k. as a teacher in a secondary modern school.
as a 11 y/o boy.......so keen to join the m.n.......he took me under his wing....and in his own time.....taught me navigation to G.C.E. O level....
which helped me gain entry to nautical college. as my eyesight was not 20/20
i became an r/o........but my love of navigation continues to this day.
i knew harry as an somewhat irrascible man.....not a sufferer of fools gladly.....when people talk of "a man of the old school" i always think of him.
and when others talk of some footballer or sportsman as a hero.....i also think of him...and his kind....for there were many.................and smile.

best regards to all

sparkie2182


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## stores

hi geoff, my mistake, i should have said china nav co, getting old and forgetful, i am a fairly new member and think this site is ace, the help given is great and the scource of information never ending, thanks, stores.


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## theaskew

Thanks Stores
Ive sent you PM message
Artie


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## Eric Bennett

Geoff Garrett said:


> Hello Artie,
> I have a photograph of MV Woosung, purchased from Watts Watts by The China Navigation Co.Ltd. and which I believe was the former Watts Watts Woolwich and in which I served as Chief Mate in 1972-73. CNCo in fact purchased 3 vessels of this class those being the renamed Woosung-Wenchow and Wanlui.
> 
> Formerly, Woolwich-Wendover-Wanstead, ugly sons of *****es, (for wont of better adjectives) but excellent cargo ships.
> 
> If this indeed is the vessel you are looking for then email me with your postal address and I shall work out some way of getting a copy of my Woosung to you.
> Rgds,
> Geoff G.


Hi Geoff
Just come across your comments. The Woosung was previously the Woodford. I was AB on the Woodford in 1951 when each man had his own cabin. I saw her at Mount Maunganui NZ as the Woosung around 1980. I said to one of the Hong Kong crewmen, what terrific accommodation. He did not know what I was talking about as they had turned the crew Quarters into cargo space created a small foc's'l.
Regards
Eric


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## John Rogers

I sailed on two of Watts Watts ships, made two trips on the Willesden and one on the Beckenham. Good ships and crew,would of stayed with the company but I had a girl friend that wanted me to quit the sea and come home. Stores if you have any good pictures of these two ships would appreciated a copy,the ones I have are not too good as they both look as if they are in need of a paint job.

John.


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## slick

All,
MV WOODFORD, prior to my joining her in 1964 I believe the Captain had been killed in the Philipines.
Can anyone fill in the details?,
Yours aye,
Slick


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## petesake

hello all ex woodford's i sailed on her in 1962 during cuban crisis, was R/O and lived in a small eerie just below the bridge. liked the ship and the crew, though most of AB's disapeared ashore in the states. good captain.payed off in birkenhead drydock. never sailed on a ship like her afterwards and finally swallowed anchor in 1964 to become ships tech trudging round docks. pete


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## Eric Bennett

I sailed on the Woodford when she was only one year old from 9th July1951 to 16th December 1951 trading from the Continent to Montreal. She was then the latest thing in freighters. Steel rolling hatches, electric winches with the controls side by side so that one man could work two winches at the same time, although the dock workers refused to do this. Each man had his own cabin with a bed rather than a bunk. There was a proper laundry and a cafeteria system with a choice of menus and an excellent Greek chef in place of an ordinary cook. Plenty of games like darts, table tennis etc; It was rumoured that this was all due to Mrs Watts, the wife of one of the shipowners as she reckoned that Merchant Seamen were getting a raw deal and were not recognised for the part they played during WW2. The only reason that I paid off, was that I could not stand the Eastern Canadian winters. Never saw a ship roll like her though.


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## tam123

slick said:


> All,
> MV WOODFORD, prior to my joining her in 1964 I believe the Captain had been killed in the Philipines.
> Can anyone fill in the details?,
> Yours aye,
> Slick


I sailed on the woodford I think it was 1961-2 I joined the ship in Genoa the Captain's name I think was Gilchrist he changed out with Cap Patteson ex rn the first mate was cyclone solomns that. was the year she opened the st lawrence river for trade in canada she then tramped the med. as for single bed cabins the catering boy were 4 in a cabin.tam123


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## howard james

*mv wendover*

hi geoff i done my first trip in the Wendover March 1960 to April 1961

i also have a model of the Wendover i had it made some time ago.
also have you read a book called a deck boys diary all about mv Willesdon very good read, did you ever come accros a Capt Pierce who was the skipper of the Wendover.just abit of info
regards howard james


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## Pat Kennedy

I always thought that Watts Watts were a mythical shipping company. I never saw one, but there was always someone who knew someone who had sailed in one, and the tales of the sumptious accomodation, and the "steak for breakfast" was just unbelievable, especially if you were sharing a cabin with five others, below decks on the Empress of Britain.
why werent they all like Watts Watts?
Pat


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## Monket

Picture of the Woolwich here.

http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum Ships/Old Ships W/slides/Woolwich-06.html.


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## Monket

Another Watts Watts thread here.

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=3629


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## Monket

Pat Kennedy said:


> I always thought that Watts Watts were a mythical shipping company. I never saw one, but there was always someone who knew someone who had sailed in one, and the tales of the sumptious accomodation, and the "steak for breakfast" was just unbelievable, especially if you were sharing a cabin with five others, below decks on the Empress of Britain.
> why werent they all like Watts Watts?
> Pat



I was on the Weybridge and it's all true. Crew's accomodation was in the tween decks.

http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum Ships/Old Ships W/slides/Weybridge-01.html


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## howard james

howard james said:


> hi geoff i done my first trip in the Wendover March 1960 to April 1961
> 
> i also have a model of the Wendover i had it made some time ago.
> also have you read a book called a deck boys diary all about mv Willesdon very good read, did you ever come accros a Capt Pierce who was the skipper of the Wendover.just a bit of info
> regards howard james


 p s did anybody sail on wendover?


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## Trader

Howard,
Have a look in my Gallery to see a picture of the Wendover stuck in the ice near Montreal in Dec.1959 which I took from the Manchester Vanguard.
Alec.


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## Bill Davies

Pat & Alec,

Watts Watts was an excellent company and without doubt the finest British company I sailed with fresh from BF. Accommodation and food was as good as I am sure you heard. Very innovative company in their hull design. Excellent cargo carriers.
Holts would have benefited from their admin dept.

Bill


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## howard james

*wendover*



Trader said:


> Howard,
> Have a look in my Gallery to see a picture of the Wendover stuck in the ice near Montreal in Dec.1959 which I took from the Manchester Vanguard.
> Alec.


hi alec im new to the site and dont know how to veiw your gallery? also i was on the Manchester Progress may to aug 1969 
regards howard 
id like to see that photo if possible


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## Trader

*Wendover*



howard james said:


> hi alec im new to the site and dont know how to veiw your gallery? also i was on the Manchester Progress may to aug 1969
> regards howard
> id like to see that photo if possible


Howard,

If you click on Gallery and then scroll down to Cargo Ships then top right you will see a box Search. Type in Wendover press GO and you will get the photos up.
These photos must have been taken the trip before you joined if you joined in April 1960.
We used to walk across the ice to exchange books and magazines etc. with the Wendover.
I also sailed in the Manchester Progress but not the same one as yourself, I sailed in the first one built in 1938 and scrapped in 1965.
I did ten years with Manchester Liners in all, a good company with some good crews. Happy days.

Alec.


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## howard james

Trader said:


> Howard,
> 
> If you click on Gallery and then scroll down to Cargo Ships then top right you will see a box Search. Type in Wendover press GO and you will get the photos up.
> These photos must have been taken the trip before you joined if you joined in April 1960.
> We used to walk across the ice to exchange books and magazines etc. with the Wendover.
> I also sailed in the Manchester Progress but not the same one as yourself, I sailed in the first one built in 1938 and scrapped in 1965.
> I did ten years with Manchester Liners in all, a good company with some good crews. Happy days.
> 
> Alec.


 cheers alec got all that ;was great to see the wendover again,and yes it was a newer manchester progress,i aggree too of the best companies i sailed with thanks again alec regards howard.


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## howard james

*only survivour*

does anybody know of a head or a haines line ship that went down possibly some way off coast of ireland/atlantic around 1951 with only 1 survivour' or any other companys vessels about that time?


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## howard james

*Lost At Sea*



howard james said:


> does anybody know of a head or a haines line ship that went down possibly some way off coast of ireland/atlantic around 1951 with only 1 survivour' or any other companys vessels about that time?


Thanks to this wonderfull web site i was e-mailed by a member from austraila
all the info on the ship concerned it turned out to be SS ELETH a coaster belonged to Messrs,William Thomas & co of Liverpool she left Birkinhead bound Dundalk,she fuonderd off the coast ireland on 31st jan 1951 i now have a full report by the board of trade of the sinking. thanks to our ausie friend.
any one interested can view report on ships research on this website under title lost at sea


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## Bill Davies

*W*illiam *T*homas *&* *C*o *L*td. (Oriel Chambers, Liverpool). Better known as Welsh Thieves and Colonial Liars.


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## howard james

*lost at sea*



Bill Davies said:


> *W*illiam *T*homas *&* *C*o *L*td. (Oriel Chambers, Liverpool). Better known as Welsh Thieves and Colonial Liars.


Hi Bill got your message about the owners

did they have a bad name sounds like it ? have you any history on the company i would be greatful to hear your comments or any history you have ,


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## Bill Davies

howard james said:


> Hi Bill got your message about the owners
> 
> did they have a bad name sounds like it ? have you any history on the company i would be greatful to hear your comments or any history you have ,


Howard,
William Thomas & Co were well established ship owners who date back to the 19th Century and owned Cape Horners (i believe). They apparently went into coasters and I do not know too much about them save that they were referred to as Welsh Thieves and Colonial Liars by many of the 'crowd' in the 'China Boats' who were in the main Welsh. It was much like T & J Harrisons were referred to as 'Hungry Harrisons' & 'Two a fat and one a lean' (Funnel Marks.) Can't give you any more than that I am sorry to say. Sailed with several ABs who sailed in their sailing ships but they were old men (my age) in the late 50s and thus commenced there sea career at the turn of the 19th Century and earlier. 

Brgds

Bill


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## muldonaich

heard the same thing myself about them sailed with a few oldtimers that sailed on them it was hard to beleive some of the stories kev.


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## Bill Davies

Howard,

Just a small aside. There was a book published many, many years ago 'Sail Ho!' which was a biography of Sir James Bisset who started in sail and ended up Commodore of the Cunard Fleet. If my memory serves me right, he commenced his career with William Thomas & Co Ltd of Liverpool. First of all in their office in Oriel Chambers and thence seagoing. I would recommend it to all SN members. 

Bill


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## howard james

Bill Davies said:


> Howard,
> William Thomas & Co were well established ship owners who date back to the 19th Century and owned Cape Horners (i believe). They apparently went into coasters and I do not know too much about them save that they were referred to as Welsh Thieves and Colonial Liars by many of the 'crowd' in the 'China Boats' who were in the main Welsh. It was much like T & J Harrisons were referred to as 'Hungry Harrisons' & 'Two a fat and one a lean' (Funnel Marks.) Can't give you any more than that I am sorry to say. Sailed with several ABs who sailed in their sailing ships but they were old men (my age) in the late 50s and thus commenced there sea career at the turn of the 19th Century and earlier.
> 
> Brgds
> 
> Bill


 thanks for your comments bill i am a bit naive i have the full report on the loss of the ss eleth in a e-mail that was sent to me but dont know how to post on this thread can you help?


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## howard james

Bill Davies said:


> Howard,
> William Thomas & Co were well established ship owners who date back to the 19th Century and owned Cape Horners (i believe). They apparently went into coasters and I do not know too much about them save that they were referred to as Welsh Thieves and Colonial Liars by many of the 'crowd' in the 'China Boats' who were in the main Welsh. It was much like T & J Harrisons were referred to as 'Hungry Harrisons' & 'Two a fat and one a lean' (Funnel Marks.) Can't give you any more than that I am sorry to say. Sailed with several ABs who sailed in their sailing ships but they were old men (my age) in the late 50s and thus commenced there sea career at the turn of the 19th Century and earlier.
> 
> Brgds
> 
> hI again bill ]I think i have worked out welsh thieves and colonial liars,
> would it be William Thomas AND Co Ltd W.T.and C.L ?


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## Bill Davies

howard james said:


> Bill Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Howard,
> William Thomas & Co were well established ship owners who date back to the 19th Century and owned Cape Horners (i believe). They apparently went into coasters and I do not know too much about them save that they were referred to as Welsh Thieves and Colonial Liars by many of the 'crowd' in the 'China Boats' who were in the main Welsh. It was much like T & J Harrisons were referred to as 'Hungry Harrisons' & 'Two a fat and one a lean' (Funnel Marks.) Can't give you any more than that I am sorry to say. Sailed with several ABs who sailed in their sailing ships but they were old men (my age) in the late 50s and thus commenced there sea career at the turn of the 19th Century and earlier.
> 
> Brgds
> 
> hI again bill ]I think i have worked out welsh thieves and colonial liars,
> would it be William Thomas AND Co Ltd W.T.and C.L ?
> 
> 
> 
> It certainly is! Oriel Chambers, Liverpool
> 
> Brgds
> 
> Bill
Click to expand...


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## Wessong

John Rogers said:


> I sailed on two of Watts Watts ships, made two trips on the Willesden and one on the Beckenham. Good ships and crew,would of stayed with the company but I had a girl friend that wanted me to quit the sea and come home. Stores if you have any good pictures of these two ships would appreciated a copy,the ones I have are not too good as they both look as if they are in need of a paint job.
> 
> John.


Hello John,

My father was second mate on the Willesden between 1953 and 1956. I have a couple of photographs he took (got keen on photography while at sea). He had also been an apprentice on the Willesden for a year in '49 - '50. Can send the photos to you, and will post on the site when I get organised. He also served on about half a dozen other Watts Watts ship from mid 1940s till late sixties (he then went to Nigerian National Line for a couple of years, then Australian National Line till mid 1970s after he married my mother, a women from Sydney).

Thanks,

Gavin


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## william middleton

hi howard,i was on the GREENWICH signed on in antwerp on 10thmay 1957 and paid off on the 4thsept.1958 under the command of captain pearce.then i joined the wkinghamfor 2 short voyages then signed on27/12/58 in avonmouth paid off in belfast 17/11/60 2 long voyages captain was lewis someting cant make out his signature in my discharge book R580444.regards bill middleton


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## howard james

hi william i was on the wendover may 1960 toapril 1961 paid off genoa signed on liverpool was my fist ship capt pierce i recall was a good skipper 
regards howard


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## tam123

slick said:


> All,
> For Geoff Garrett, the MV Woosung was in fact the MV Woodford, in 1964 Mitsubishi Dockyard Engineers were surprised when thay came to alter the name as when they sliced the ---DFORD off the hull, the letters were found to be bronze and copper riveted to the hull, something of a dilemma I believe if memory serves that they were replaced with ---SUNG in bronze. The letters were polished, lacquered and edged in red.
> A fabulous class of ships winners of the first ship to Montreal(?) on a couple(?) of occasions, silver topped canes all round!!
> Yours aye,
> Slick


tam 123
I was on the Woodford 1960 first shop up to Montreal and I didnt get any gold cane(Frogger)


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## John Rogers

Wessong said:


> Hello John,
> 
> My father was second mate on the Willesden between 1953 and 1956. I have a couple of photographs he took (got keen on photography while at sea). He had also been an apprentice on the Willesden for a year in '49 - '50. Can send the photos to you, and will post on the site when I get organised. He also served on about half a dozen other Watts Watts ship from mid 1940s till late sixties (he then went to Nigerian National Line for a couple of years, then Australian National Line till mid 1970s after he married my mother, a women from Sydney).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gavin


Hi Gavin,
I must have missed your father as I sailed on the Willesden from Jan thru July1952,and the Beckenham August until the end of Sept 1952 .

John.


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## stores

*mv wanstead*

i was on mv wanstead in 1962 , joined in antwerp, paid off in glasgow around 10 months later, running around the medie then canada and great lakes to detroit then back to medie, woodford was on same run, 2nd engineer was a short scotsman, 3rd was half indian, we called him curry and rice, chippy was scouse, donkeyman was greek, engine storekeeper was jock wallace, my mate another cleaner in engine room was danny nimmo from glasgow, think he had been on woodford, he got lovesick and paid off in genoa, paid his own and replacements air fare, had 2 germans AB,s only broke down once in ten months, good old Doxford,s , messman paid off sick at Gib, the run was, Antwerp, Lisbon, Valencia, Barcelona, Genoa, Leghorn, Naples, Pireaus,Izmir, Lattakia,Lisbon, Montreal, Toronto, Hamilton, Buffalo,Sarnia, Detroit,Montreal, Quebec, Three Rivers, then do it all again.STORES.(Thumb)


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## petesake

some time since i visited this watts watts thread, my trip with mv woodford ranks as best. hopeless doxford engines for size of ship and we stopped dead in gale force winds. we ploughed up someones back garden in the mississipi when they failed completely, left a lovely wedge shape in his back lawn. the funnel was painted out four times with different charters and from bangkok to hongkong, we had 500 pigs on deck and watered the pigs whilst existing on a pint per day ourselves. lovely trip and fond memories... pete


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## charlie formosa

tam123 said:


> I sailed on the woodford I think it was 1961-2 I joined the ship in Genoa the Captain's name I think was Gilchrist he changed out with Cap Patteson ex rn the first mate was cyclone solomns that. was the year she opened the st lawrence river for trade in canada she then tramped the med. as for single bed cabins the catering boy were 4 in a cabin.tam123


I was on Woodford as a catering boy 1961/62. I joined in naples. We used to sail to Montreal and the Med.


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## Tony Veale

Tony Veale Junior Eng and 4th on Watts Watts M.V. Weybridge. !965- 1967.
Is there anybody out there from the same period.


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## defence1

*Woodford*



Eric Bennett said:


> Hi Geoff
> Just come across your comments. The Woosung was previously the Woodford. I was AB on the Woodford in 1951 when each man had his own cabin. I saw her at Mount Maunganui NZ as the Woosung around 1980. I said to one of the Hong Kong crewmen, what terrific accommodation. He did not know what I was talking about as they had turned the crew Quarters into cargo space created a small foc's'l.
> Regards
> Eric


Hi Eric I was on the Woodford in 1953, if you were still on her you may remember me. I was a JOS. First trip was to Montreal and down the St Lawrence. Would have sailed out of Avonmouth most likely. Second trip was to Australia via Canary Islands and Capetown. I have searced many times to find any of the crew that is of the few names I can remember. I'm a bit old in the tooth now so I guess you must be getting on Also. hope to hear back from you.
Cheers
Frank


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