# Help to identify this ship, please



## rachman (Mar 13, 2012)

Hi,
This photograph turns up in an album relating to a yacht based at Penarth, South Wales in 1913. I have tried a web search but to no avail as the name and port of registration are not quite fully legible. Neither can I turn up any companies with the M logo, other than Matson, and they seemed to be Hawaii specific at that time so unlikely.
I think the name is Ciudad de Mo....something or other and the port of registry could be Monterrey or Montenegro, perhaps?
Any help you can give will be much appreciated.
Thanks
Phil


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## Robert Hilton (Feb 13, 2011)

You could try Ciudad de Montevideo. There were two passenger vessels that looked a bit like her plying between Montevodeo and Buenos Aires in the 1950's. I think the other was Ciudad de Buenos Aires. The registry might be Montevideo, but this is all a wild guess.


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## Johnny Walker (Mar 27, 2010)

I think that the ship is the Ciudad De Montevideo as already mentioned there is a photo on the 'Ship Spotting' website with some information on her builder and build date (1915) etc. Which looks quite similar but with different funnel markings.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Here is photo of the ship.


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## Johnny Walker (Mar 27, 2010)

I think that the Funnel is for the Cia Argentinia de Navigacion (Mihavonovich) Ltda The company had a red funnel with a white M, It is beyond my capabilities to show the link but if you google Flags of the world web site or just use the company name and follow the links you will find it. Oddly enough on the Shipstamps.co.uk site there are images of the ships Ciudad De Buenos Aires and the Ciudad De Montevideo and I think that the latter is the ship you are looking for there is also an awful lot of information on the site about the ships which should lead you in the right direction for information about the ship.


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## rachman (Mar 13, 2012)

Many thanks, gentlemen - that's the one. Now just have to figure out if she ever visited the Bristol Channel and why her photo is in that album!
Terrific response, thanks again
Phil.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Here are a couple of colour official company postcards. They seem to show the funnels are black with white M. Additional, there are other... B&W unfortunately, the hull appears to be black instead of grey and the funnels appear to be a very light colour, buff or white with black tops.

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Two B&W photos showing the later livery.


Black hull. Black funnel top. White band and lower might be buff, even pale blue. Does not look like red.

Stephen


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

I enlarged the bow section and it is the "Ciudad de Montevideo"


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## rachman (Mar 13, 2012)

Brilliant, thanks for the extra information and pictures.
We are now thinking that perhaps the original photo I posted was taken on departure from Cardiff, rather then Penarth (we think she may have been too big for Penarth) and that she called in there to bunker coal for her delivery journey across the Atlantic to the River Plate, en route from the shipbuilder at Birkenhead. The date entry in the album is 1914-1915, so sounds about right. Of course, this is just speculation until we can show that she did in fact call in to Cardiff. Do you have any suggestions of anyone who might keep registers of ship movements at Cardiff for this period? Thanks again, Phil


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

These two ships are very American style... similar as US East Coast steamers.

Re delivery to the Plate. I doubt she would have had the capacity to make the run in one hop. Probably went south to the Canaries then over to Trinidad and then down to the coast to Plate. 

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

GOOGLE THIS LINK. VERY GOOD INFO & PHOTOS

Index of /ArchivoFotosGral/Buques Mercantes/C/CiudaddeMontevideo

Name

Last modified

Size

Description




Parent Directory - 
722x1cdaddeMontev.jpg 2011-06-16 14:31 1.2M 
722x1cdaddeMontevDS3..> 2011-06-16 14:31 237K 
722x1cdaddeMontevDS3..> 2011-06-16 14:31 46K 
722x2.jpg 2011-06-16 14:31 1.0M 
722x2Arqueox10.jpg 2011-06-16 14:31 384K 
722x2Arqueox35.jpg 2011-06-16 14:31 63K 
2504-CdaddeMontevide..> 2011-06-16 14:29 2.3M 
2504-CdaddeMontevide..> 2011-06-16 14:28 256K 
2504-CdaddeMontevide..> 2011-06-16 14:29 50K 
2504A-CdaddeMontevid..> 2011-06-16 14:30 2.2M 
2504A-CdaddeMontevid..> 2011-06-16 14:29 183K 
2504A-CdaddeMontevid..> 2011-06-16 14:29 35K 
3034-CdaddeMontevide..> 2011-06-16 14:30 2.1M 
3034-CdaddeMontevide..> 2011-06-16 14:30 251K 
3034-CdaddeMontevide..> 2011-06-16 14:30 48K 
8803CdaddeMontevideo..> 2011-06-16 14:32 1.0M 
8803CdaddeMontevideo..> 2011-06-16 14:32 304K 
8803CdaddeMontevideo..> 2011-06-16 14:32 56K 
CdeMontevideo-01-lg.jpg 2011-06-16 14:32 124K 
CdeMontevideo-01-x4.jpg 2011-06-16 14:32 23K 
CdeMontevideo-02lg.jpg 2011-06-16 14:32 135K 
CdeMontevideo-02x4.jpg 2011-06-16 14:32 27K 
CdeMontevideo-03-lg.jpg 2011-06-16 14:32 91K 
CdeMontevideo-03-x2.jpg 2011-06-16 14:32 11K 
CdeMontevideo-03-x4.jpg 2011-06-16 14:32 20K 
CdeMontevideo-x100.jpg 2011-06-16 14:32 16K 
CiudaddeBsAs-Momtevi..> 2011-06-16 14:32 178K 
Thumbs.db 2011-06-16 14:32 7.5K 
_vti_cnf/ 2011-06-16 14:47 - 
ciudaddeMontevideo-2..> 2011-06-16 14:32 192K 
ciudaddeMontevideo-2..> 2011-06-16 14:32 62K 
ciudaddeMontevideo-d..> 2011-06-16 14:32 40K 
ciudaddeMontevideo-d..> 2011-06-16 14:32 224K 
ciudaddeMontevideo03..> 2011-06-16 14:32 189K 
ciudaddeMontevideo03..> 2011-06-16 14:32 52K 
ciudaddeMontevideo03..> 2011-06-16 14:32 143K 




Apache Server at www.histarmar.com.ar Port 80


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Like these.....


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Here a photo from the 50s.

Only two funnels, enlarged and cut down.

I would suspect she was converted to a motor vessel at some point.

Stephen


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

re "Ciudad de Montevideo" 
Some basic details here:
http://shippingandshipbuilding.uk/v...age=15&ref=202918&vessel=CIUDAD+DE+MONTEVIDEO

This has completion date 1/1915. In your photo the openings in the hull at main deck level have been closed so that could indicate preparation for delivery voyage. Not sure why she should have diverted to Cardiff since presumably ample coaling facilities on Mersey?


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

eddyw said:


> re "Ciudad de Montevideo"
> Some basic details here:
> http://shippingandshipbuilding.uk/v...age=15&ref=202918&vessel=CIUDAD+DE+MONTEVIDEO
> 
> This has completion date 1/1915. In your photo the openings in the hull at main deck level have been closed so that could indicate preparation for delivery voyage. Not sure why she should have diverted to Cardiff since presumably ample coaling facilities on Mersey?



Yes, thinking the same. Completion 1915. War time. Quite possible she was down to Cardiff for coaling and then join a convoy. No idea how she went there. Might have been Canaries then Trinidad. Azores, Bermuda then down south. For sure would not be able to take that voyage without coaling several times.

These opening on main deck might have been steel doors that could be opened and closed as required. Would be interesting to see a deck plan. The main deck might have been 'steerage' and cabins on the two decks above for First/ Second. That main deck might have also for mail or cargo as well.

Stephen


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## rachman (Mar 13, 2012)

Most interesting! Here are deck plans, for de Buenos Aires, but I would imagine identical to her sister


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

Convoy system didn't come in till later (1917?). U boat offensive only just starting in Jan 1915 though already some sinkings in W Approaches. It might have made sense to sail via N Channel from Liverpool which would make Cardiff even less likely. On the other hand she had a fair turn of speed (16 knots) and would have been relatively low risk? (Oh er- forgot about the Lusitania!)


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

eddyw said:


> Convoy system didn't come in till later (1917?). U boat offensive only just starting in Jan 1915 though already some sinkings in W Approaches. It might have made sense to sail via N Channel from Liverpool which would make Cardiff even less likely. On the other hand she had a fair turn of speed (16 knots) and would have been relatively low risk? (Oh er- forgot about the Lusitania!)




Thanks. If the ship was heading south, to get to Canaries or elsewhere that direction, I doubt she would have wasted the coal to go over N. Channel. Might have been of course.

The two side openings in the hull to get into the lower decks. Note the 30 cwt crane and the adjacent hatch down to the lower hold. A bit of a laugh. MooreMacCormack built two large ships in the 1950s, ARGENTINA and BRASIL. They made a real fuss about having a crane to lower cargo through the side port... same as out little vessel above.

Stephen


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## rachman (Mar 13, 2012)

Thank you for your further observations, gentlemen.
It might help to give a little background to the origin of this photo. The photograph is in a sea-diary covering 1913-1914 belonging to the schooner 'Shearwater' (photo attached) which was registered at Penarth Yacht Club and owned by Joshua Symonds Neale, who was running a deep-sea trawler operation based at Cardiff Docks that had been set up by his father, Joshua John Neale. The family lived in Penarth. At the outbreak of war in August 1914, 'Shearwater' was taken on as Motorboat Reserve number 40, doing coastal patrols for the first 12 months of WW1. Owner Joshua Symonds Neale and his crew served as RN Volunteer reserves. He went on to serve full time on HMS Hermione. The Shearwater sea-diary and its photos belong to a friend of mine for whom I am doing some research - his great uncle was a crew member. We feel that perhaps the Ciudad de Montevideo photograph was taken from onboard Shearwater, as the steamer sailed past the Penarth cliffs on her way to the South Atlantic. The lighting and what can be seen of the cliffs all add up to this being a calm Bristol Channel morning tide departure.
However, this, of course, is all speculation as we have no do***ented proof that she visited Cardiff or Penarth, but then again, why would an otherwise random photo of her appear in a totally unconnected sea diary?
In the Shearwater photograph, note the white ensign.
Thanks again everyone.


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

Thanks rachman. I still remain a 'doubting Thomas'. Some comments. (1) To me the photos taken on "Shearwater", obviously taken with a camera with a good quality lens on B&W film, appear significantly different, qualitatively, from that of the "Ciudad de Montevideo" which looks as though it has been 'colourised' or 'tinted ' pink for effect and thus processed differently . (2) The screws are evidently stopped and she is almost dead in the water which is odd if she was photographed steaming off to Montevideo having passed the "Shearwater". (3) The location is clearly not Cardiff Bay (4) Similarly the topography doesn't look much like the coastline around Penarth. Apart from Penarth Head, which has high sheer cliffs the shoreline is relatively low lying.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2f/89/d4/2f89d49d5ed670790ae7ee740f84c606.jpg
Regards

PS There is a reference to her having reached St Vincent, Cape Verde Islands on March 3 1915. St Vincent was a coaling station. It may be possible to work back to estimate when she might have been at Cardiff.
https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-08-HMS_Macedonia.htm

Wirral Archives have records of the builders Cammell Laird and there may be some reference there to arrangements for the delivery voyage. Worth a try?
https://www.wirral.gov.uk/libraries.../do***ents-we-hold/cammell-laird-shipbuilders


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