# Ship / boat



## jenno (Dec 21, 2006)

Can anyone please tell me the difference between a boat and a ship?
Maybe a stupid question, but not if you now the answer

Thanks
Jenno.


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

Nothing stupid about the question Jenno - if you dont know ask, please ask.

The definition of a ship varies as there are various opinions on the matter, however I have always understood the definition of a ship being *' a vessel that is capable of carrying its own boats '* and the definition of a boat being *' any small craft capable of being carried on a ship '.*

Hope that helps.

Chris.


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Jenno,

I stand to be corrected by my peers!

A floating transport, for want of a better description, is a VESSEL.

A boat is a small vessel, i.e. tugboat, rowboat, canal boat. Really, people should say "boat" and not "ship".

A ship, if I can remember correctly, is a five or more masted, square rigged sailing vessel. Ship is therefore a classification of a type of sailing vessel, as in schooner, barque, brig, clipper.

I hope that I have got this right!

Regards,

Dave


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

Dave,

Navies have warships, overall they are still called warships even if they are Destroyers or Frigates et al that is just a description of the type of ship they are, as are Tankers, Liners, Containerships they are all ships, their names just describe their job. 

You are right with your description of sailing ships but the same applies, a two masted barque is still a ship though the name barque describes her rig as such and how many masts she has.

There are various ships such as Lightships types of ship - etc and a vessel has a number of definitions it can hold water such as a drinking vessel as well as float on water such as a ship or boat for that matter.

Chris


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

As many members will know, this is one of my favourtite subjects. It always annoys me when people refer to a ship as a boat. Aboard Oriana for example every passenger referred to her as a boat, and of course shoreside language for everything else aboard a ship.

I once heard the captain of the old Arcadia when I worked on her telling a passenger off for calling his ship a boat. He said "Madam, the only boats connected to my ship are lifeboats". 

Over the years, shipping experts like this captain and others have told me the following:

A ship has covered decks, a boat does not.

Ships carries boats, boats do not carry ships.

The only large vessel known as a 'boat' is a submarine.

David


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## notnila (Apr 26, 2006)

I've always explained it by"A boat is what you board when the ship sinks!"


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## oldbosun (Jul 8, 2004)

As far as sailing ships go, a 'ship' is one that is square rigged on all masts.
If the last mast is not square rigged and the others forward of it are, then its a 'barque'. Then there are schooners etc.

But only the first I described is truly a sailing ship.

But to tell you the truth, whenever I saw any of them, I might say to myself "There goes a sailing ship", even when it was the "Pamir" which was in reality a barque, but I'd never say to myself "There goes the Pamir. one of the last money earning sailing barques" 

But we don't always talk technical do we. 

Is a fishing trawler a "Fishing ship"? or a fishing boat.? It's got covered in decks , a large crew, and carries boats, that makes it a ship?. But in my sea days we'd never refer to it as a 'fishing ship'.

Anything that floats and and is big enough to use the term, is a 'ship' to me.


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

you can get a boat on a ship.................

you cant get a ship on a boat.........................................


shakespeare


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## Jan Hendrik (Feb 14, 2005)

Sounds like a complete repeat of same discussion held on SN abt 2 years ago.

David, apart from a submarine being a boat, then what about supplyboat (sometimes also called supplyship) and tugboat some of which are bigger than ships.
I do however agree with your explanation.

I remember the discussion at the time was never ending but quite amusing.
Then there is sometimes a difference in which language you speak or from which country you origin as also in German, Dutch and French you have a differential but sometimes these are used in another way.i.e. a ferry (incl the super large ones holding 1000 pass.) in Dutch is quite often called a "veerboot" or ferryboat and not a ship.
It will always remain a bit of a confusing topic.
Regards,
Ja


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Oh dear .... this is a very old argument reawoken. I guess there will be no universal agreement but for what it's worth here are some definitions from "The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea":

*Boat:* The generic name for small open craft without any decking and usually propelled by oars or outboard engine and sometimes by a small lugsail on a short mast. Some exceptions to this general definition are fishing vessels and submarines, both of which are generally known as boats irrespective of their size. Some coastal naval attack craft used during the two world wars were also called boats.

*Ship:* From the Old English _scip_, the generic name for seagoing vessels as opposed to boats, though submarines are known as boats as are the different types of fishing vessels.

Hope this helps.

Brian


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## Phil Saul (Jan 20, 2006)

Pompeyfan said:


> As many members will know, this is one of my favourtite subjects. It always annoys me when people refer to a ship as a boat. Aboard Oriana for example every passenger referred to her as a boat, and of course shoreside language for everything else aboard a ship.
> 
> I once heard the captain of the old Arcadia when I worked on her telling a passenger off for calling his ship a boat. He said "Madam, the only boats connected to my ship are lifeboats".
> 
> ...



Hi David,
In my more than 10 years at sea in the sixties and seventies I can never recall anyone referring to the word ship other than in a general sense.
The guys in the mess and the saloon always referred to 'boats', as in Ben boat, Clan boat, Prince boat, P&O boat, etc and never Ben ship, Clan ship, P&O ship.
liners were referred to as passenger boats while tankers were just tankers.
If it was good enough for the guys I sailed with it was good enough for me and I always refer to boats, not ships.
It may not have been PC but it was the real world.
Regards Phil (Thumb)


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## oldbosun (Jul 8, 2004)

That's right Phil Saul, I agree with you a hundred percent. A huge ship, we called a Benboat or a Castle Boat. We knew they were Ships but we called them Boats. Royal Mail Boats, Blue Funnel Boats, Cunard Boats and on and on and on. We knew they were ships, we shipped out on them, we didn't boat out on them.
Yes, this subject did crop up in Ships Nostalgia years ago, and I think we all agreed that ships are ships and boats are boats. 
Can we let people who come on the website know how us seamen look upon this subject and let them look at the postings and see that we,us seamen, only we know how it is. 
We will give explanations, but the bottom line is what we have already told them over the years is that you must listen to the men who know.
Seamen are not interested in semantics that were never in their lives, To them (us) a ship is a ship and a boat is a boat and we always knew the difference. It was unsaid amongst us because we knew without saying.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Yes, we are going over old ground. But it is good because there are very important issues here that go way beyond the boat thing.

Yes, as Phill says, we often referred to the ships we sailed on as boats. When working for P&O we referred to the Orient Line ships as 'O' Boats, Union Castle as Cape Boats, and so on. The difference is that it was slang, and we KNEW it was slang. This is nothing to do with the PC world, but below deck talk which in itself was different to shore side language.

The majority of people ashore really think a ship is a boat, not in slang terms but in reality terms. They are looking at it in a completely different way than crew. If they hear a crew member referring to the ship as a boat, they think it correct. They don't know that the crew is speaking in slang terms. 

The captain I referred to knew this, and called Orient ships 'O' boats himself, but he like other crew knew the difference, passengers didn't and that was his very point. He would not allow below deck slang to teach passengers incorrect terminology. In other words below deck slang or otherwise stayed below deck.

There is a much wider issue here however affecting the very fabric of the nautical profession. It is not just the boat thing. Crew would not be sloppy with other things. You won't hear them call a deck a floor, baulkhead a wall, or deckhead ceiling and so on. Deck crew in particular would never bring shore side language aboard a ship in that sense. 

Having said that, they are allowing passengers to use shore side language without correcting them often going along with them hence me using the word sloppy. I think they are scared to put them right because they are paying their wages?!. Old school captains of the passenger 'line voyage' era did not see it that way however. 

When aboard Oriana for 6 weeks I never once heard a passenger use shipboard language. I told one that emergency instructions was on the bulkhead in his cabin. He told me that his was on the wall. I asked if he had a bulkhead in his cabin, he said he had no idea. 

Many of us on this site are either current or former crew. Rather than arguing over this boat issue, whether we used the term as slang or not we should all be singing from the same hymn book regarding the demise of nautical terminology in general. 

Modern day cruising is killing nautical terminology. When aboard Oriana, and indeed other cruises, I would say that 99% of the passengers had no idea of any of the terminology aboard. They didn't even know where port and starboard was, and when inside some had no idea which way the ship was going. And in passenger drills they were again clueless which frightens me to death if there was ever a major incident miles from land. They were hearing shipboard terms but some had no idea what it meant. 

So don't lets argue over incidentials like as crew you referred to Ben boats or whatever and still do. That is crew slang. The problem is that landlubbers don't know that. But there is a far bigger problem. Modern cruising is destroying the very fabric of nautical terminology. It goes far beyond the boat thing. The entire nautical profession is being torn to shreads. Go aboard a cruise ship and you would think you were in a holiday camp because the language is exacly the same. 

We have difference of opinion on this site, but surely there is not one member who would want to see nautical jargon/terminology destroyed completely due to the modern day cruise passenger. Would you?. David


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## ruud (Dec 6, 2004)

Ahoy,
Make up your mind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Ruud

Some of those listed proves my very point. Some in the boat section is slang. Banana boat is slang, yet it is listed as a boat. Vessels used for this purpose are usually ships, cargo liners because they ply a regular 'line voyage'. Car boats as listed as boats are ships. Ugly looking things, but certainly ships, not boats. The latter once again is slang. And a hovercraft is most certainly not a boat. It is an amphibious craft. I once asked a hovercraft pilot this very question, and he said it was not a boat. And he is a pilot, not a sea captain. 

There are a lot of flaws in the Wikipeda descriptions. But in general, it is pretty good. At least they refer to a cruise ship as a ship!. David


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## ruud (Dec 6, 2004)

Ahoy David,
Therefor Wikipedia is developing still its site,by asking to provide much as possible,but mostly they are well informed,it's a good free encyclopedia.
Note:
*This article does not cite any **references or sources**.
*Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. (help, get involved!)
Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed.
This article has been tagged since *June 2007*.


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## oldbosun (Jul 8, 2004)

I don't think we're arguing Pompeyfan. We're just putting across a point of view as we see it, just as you are.
Actually, it appears that we are all just about in agreement with the bottom line being that us seamen are quite comfortable with our terminology about ships and boats, boats and ships. A tanker is a tanker. We know what it is. But maybe we would have to term it an oil carrier to a landsman, or an oil carrying ship. But to us...................tanker. 
We know what we're talking about, but landspeople don't understand what we're talking about because our nautical language is a mystery to them and the only way they will solve the mystery is to find out the way we did, and that is to go to sea and spend a few trips learning it and becoming comfortable with it.

Smoko lads!! or in a factory, "tea break" 
ATB SHIPmates


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

It was smoko Down Under Old Bosun, and nammit here on the Isle of Wight, now there is another thread?!.


I agree with you entirely. You can certainly look at tanker or oil tanker and so on. But what I see here is a direct ship/boat thing. In addition to that is the entire nautical terminology which I think we all agree on.

As for Wikipedia, yes they are a very good free encyclopedia, and still developing as Ruud says, but I do notice errors like for example referring to a hovercraft as a boat. Also, a banana boat is slang, although some may not agree which is fair enough. Bascially, is the vessel carying the bananas a ship or a boat in reality?!. 

I can see more errors regarding medical matters in Wikapedia because I am far more qualified to speak about that than nautical matters. My nautical knowledge comes from working at sea, listening to qualified professionals from merchant navy captains to naval admirals plus looking up history. I was also connected with Uffa Fox of course and all the people he knew all with nautical background. I listened to them rather than any other source. David


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## gdynia (Nov 3, 2005)

David

Boat will always be termed in the Nautical slang. How many people refer to Container Ships as Box Boats. Its a thing we will never get rid of.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Neville

I totally agree. The problem I see is that when the general public hear nautical professionals calling a ship a boat, they think it correct language not realizing it is slang. David


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## Tmac1720 (Jun 24, 2005)

Harland and Wolff *ship*yards known by one and all as "The *boat* factory"


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

The Royal Navy always refer to tankers as "oilers". They did that even if she was full of octane. And for those who are not sure what an octane tanker is, she's carrying 100 octane petrol (benzine) for aircraft, and I'm glad I never found myself in one of those during the war!


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## Bearsie (Nov 11, 2006)

Well... we have the Love "Boat" and since it was on TV for years that must be correct? (Smoke) 
On the other hand the Vikings called their "boats" Lange skip (Long Ship) but they had no deck.... (Thumb) 

As far as tourist boats? In my Opinion only land language should be used and not "nautical" language, since the "nautic" population on these ships is minuscule and majority rules!

Nautical language should be reserved for coasters and other true ships ! [=P]


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## joesoap (Sep 4, 2005)

Whatsinaname
I recall being at the wheel on the 'Tyria' when we picked up one of the pilots on the Chesapeake Bay pilotage heading for Baltimore , ot was it Newport News . Anyway the yankee pilot entered the wheelhouse and the old man welcomed him with outstretched arm ''Welcome aboard pilot''. '' Glad to be of service capin Smith'' hollered the pilot taking the smokin stogie from his lips . ''Smythe '' corrected the old man ''Captain Smythe '' he repeated . ''Smith , Smythe, **** or ****e it's all the same to me capin'' bluterd the pilot. There was some coughin and a splutterin going on in that wheelhouse I can tell you and boy was I glad to be relieved at the wheel. I laughed all the way down aft and it makes me smile to this day. Cheers !


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## 6639 (Apr 20, 2006)

with ref to sparkies earlier quote. unless it's a destroyer on top of a u boat?. oooops sorry lads. political correctness?


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## GEORDIE LAD (Sep 6, 2005)

Sea Lawyers of the World. UNITE!!!!(Jester)


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## johnalderman (May 27, 2006)

Terminology is changing all the time, is it a bad thing? Pompeyfan says passengers on a cruise don't know port from starboard but seamen of yesteryear would not recognise the term "Port" as in left hand side of the ship it is a relatively modern term which by Pompeyfans argument should not be used.


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

And let us not forget the Sam Boats (Liberty Ships) and the good old Port Boats (Port Line)
John.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Jack

I am arguing nothing, just pointing out fact. And I have never said port and starboard should not be used, quite the opposite

Port and starboard has certainly been used during my lifetime, and long before. It was essential to use correct terminology when taking my steering and lifeboat ticket for P&O, and indeed when young learning how to sail. I have said who my sailing neighbour was in other posts, and you do not have to be a rocket scientist to work out who he also sailed with. If I had not used port and starboard when steering the yacht and tacking etc, I could have been thrown in the Tower of London!.

On a shipping site, I find it quite odd that any member would dispute the use of correct nautical terminology. Surely during our lifetime at least, we were all taught the same thing at sea?.

As for passengers not knowing terminology aboard a ship. Well, time will tell. The proof will be in the pudding as they say. I have always predicted mayhem should something go wrong at sea. Total mayhem due to people panicking not knowing what to do could turn a serious situation into a worse one. Passengers don't know what to do at passenger drill, so will they suddenly know what to do and learn port from starboard etc when they have to?!. Many people have been ridiculed for foreseeing something, only to be proved right. 

I hope I am wrong. Nothing would please me more than to be wrong in anything. Even in my job I always hoped that I was seeing wrong when I saw cancer under the microscpoe. The patient often refused to believe it. Ufortunately I was right, but wished I had been wrong.

All I am saying in these threads is please lets keep nautical terminology as it is, as we were all taught. The same goes for my medical training. Yes, language changes, everything moves onto a certain extent. A house changes, you make alterations, build on new extentions and so on. But you don't change the foundations. That is all I am saying. A boat will always be a boat, and a ship always a ship and terminology aboard a ship/boat(with a few exceptions perhaps)more or less is the same whether, now, in the past or in the future.

That is all I am saying because I am getting fed up to the teeth of saying the same things over and over again be it boat, ship or origin of liner etc. I was taught the correct way by some of the finest people of their time all at the very top of their trade, and will never forget that, or sway from that. Friends, some who helped teach me are telling me to knock it on the head as I am getting nowhere, and I tend to agree. David


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Terms are carried over. I mentioned this thread to a colleague and he was of the opinion that the vernacular will modify the terms. For example, we don't say generally "send me and email". It has become shortened to "Email Me!" and this in a very short time.

My original reply was to use the original (archaic?) meaning. 

When at sea, it was always the "boat". Just like "Going up the road" or "Throw it over the wall", when ashore, it would always be "Is it time to get back to the boat". And they were the Blue Funnel boats for me! My father sailed on the "China Boats". All in all, a lively discussion and I see a commonly developing line in this thread, it is what we with seatime under our belts care to call it. And thats the way it should be! Got to go, I need my SHIFTER and its almost time for SMO - KOE!

Best Regards to all,

Dave


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## johnalderman (May 27, 2006)

I used the word argument as in debate not dispute. However we all learn the terminology of our day, modern terminology would in the eyes of sailors long gone be like a foreign language, I was using the term "Port" as and example, it would not for instance be correctly used to depict the left hand side of a ship in days gone by but is acceptable today, in the future gods knows what sea going terminology will become common practise, maybe wall will one day replace bulkhead and be accepted as correct, just as you accept port to be correct today.


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

John,

You are reiterating my theory!

Dave


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

I hear what you all say, but boat as we used at sea was slang, that is the difference.

As for port, I can't see this changing in the forseeable future no more than I can see the heart getting a new name. As for this moment in time, it would be a good idea for people to learn what side of the ship it is today, and not worry about what it may be called tomorrow or any other nautical term come to that. David


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## Malcolm Frost (Mar 27, 2007)

*Boats & Ships*

Ships carry boats,Boats do not carry ships.

Malcolm


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## Keith Adams (Nov 5, 2006)

After WWll, especially in the 1950's, many of the larger shipping companies vied to have as many of their ships as possible fly the Blue Ensign rather than the Red Ensign, and in order to be hired on as a Mate one had to commit to joining Royal Naval Reserve ... it is my understanding it had something to do with the idea that in the event of another war they would not be subjected to small boat RNR and RN Officers being placed aboard company ships in responsible positions along with all the Navy stuff they brought with them. A lot of it stuck on the larger ships when most Mates became RNR and to my mind much snobishness grew around flying the Blue Ensign ... P & O seemed to carry it to an extreme ... only P.S.N.C. in the 1920s had as much BS ... more Navy than the RN ! ... no wonder the Oldman (sorry, Captain) took exception to his vessel being called a boat. It is apparent that the vast majority of site members disagree with him, and I am one of them. Despite all that, as far as the Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea is concerned, a boat is a small non-seagoing vessel propelled exclusively by oars. 
Right now I do volunteer work on the LIBERTY SHIP "Jeremiah O'Brien" and in 1960 I served the whole year on a SAM-BOAT ("Samidway") "Scholar"... both built with the same plans ... both proper terminology of their time. Snowy


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

On the continent at least, all yachts have now become ships, all yachtsmen sailors and captains, and every time it blows at all, its force 9... It irritates me, as there's a reason for boats having become ships here, namely the wish of yachtsmen to wear the boots, as it were, of professional sailors.
I saw a ceremony recently (2003) in St. Malo were the A.I.C.H., the association of Cape Horners, were dissolved, because those living who had gone westward past the Horn under square rig were becoming very few and frail. But there were a number of British yachtsmen who had woved to keep the association going under the same name. The master of ceremonies, when asked about this, was not mild in the voice when he said: "Why can't they start their own club?" -I believe we all here can understand that man, and I believe somewhere around there lies the origin of some of the heat in this discussion. Yes, a sailor can call his ship a boat, and he has at times through the ages, but a sailor who has paid his dues is still entitled to pride in what he has done, and the company he kept, and have the right to tell off offensively chummy intruders; as in: "That's not a ship, that's just a boat". I think it's where you call a boat a ship that's important. (But mostly it's not that important, a word is just a tool used in communication, it's not what it describes. That Larboard became Port, was to distance the sound of the word from Starboard, when the orders "helm down", and "helm up" were replaced with the advent of steam. Left will not replace port, as this side changes with the way you are facing). Or so do I think. Regards, Stein.


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## Chillytoes (Dec 9, 2006)

This all boils down to - "Where you stand depends on where you are standing."


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## Richie2012 (Apr 15, 2007)

This what i was told when i started my job and calling the ship a boat
you can fit a boat on a ship but you cant fit a ship on a boat 
Dont know if thi shas been said already 
Richie


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## masthead (Apr 16, 2007)

I as POMPEYFAN was always told YOU CAN PUT A BOAT ON A SHIP BUT CANT PUT A SHIP ON A BOAT //// that useually calms landlubbers!!!


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

By definition a boat is a vessel of 500 tons or less . Over 500 tons is a Ship.

The tonnage being Gross registered tons if my memory serves me well . 
Derek


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

In my Post above I forgot the good old Fort Boats when I mentioned Sam boats(Liberty) and the Victory Ships.
John.


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## GEORDIE LAD (Sep 6, 2005)

It is general usage on the Great Lakes to call them boats,but in our agency business,the "salties" are called ships......Doug


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