# Rolls Royce diesels



## double acting

In the 1960s Clan Line built, I think it was 4 or 5 ships which had RR generators. They were mounted in the middles, ran at around 1800 revs (I think)

They did not in theory require any maintenance, apart from oil and water topping up if required. Bendix type electric starters were used. Above them was mounted a monorail which exited, via a removable plate in the after engine room bulkhead, into a cargo hold

The theory was that after so many hours they would be exchange for one which had been previously overhauled.

I only stood by one, but I did see the engine room serang prising the bits out of the acoustic barrier after one ran to destruction. The accident report was very brief., along the lines of "I was in the control room, pressed the starter button then watched the revs come up to normal, then off the scale, then drop to zero"

Were they ever brought into general use?


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## Varley

The Uiterwyk reefers (Polar this and that) had had them early on. All that was left of them was two (?)of their alternators which doubled as a BLM for the Siemens shaft generator system. Those and the rails from which the lead curtains which had been installed to catch the higher velocity pieces of scrap into which the engines converted themselves on regular intervals. E-S will tell us of the EM D/A on the Texaco Denmark but I would have no idea if of the same mark although I am fairly sure they were of the same 'Marque'.


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## Engine Serang

Oh it was a Rolls Royce alright and we engineers were ever so proud of it. A Merlin on our ship.
But a Merlin it was not, if ours had been fitted in a Spitfire wir würden heute Abend alle Deutsch sprechen.

And Varley would be striding around Douglas in a fetching pair of Lederhosen.


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## Tim Gibbs

double acting said:


> In the 1960s Clan Line built, I think it was 4 or 5 ships which had RR generators. They were mounted in the middles, ran at around 1800 revs (I think)
> 
> They did not in theory require any maintenance, apart from oil and water topping up if required. Bendix type electric starters were used. Above them was mounted a monorail which exited, via a removable plate in the after engine room bulkhead, into a cargo hold
> 
> The theory was that after so many hours they would be exchange for one which had been previously overhauled.
> 
> I only stood by one, but I did see the engine room serang prising the bits out of the acoustic barrier after one ran to destruction. The accident report was very brief., along the lines of "I was in the control room, pressed the starter button then watched the revs come up to normal, then off the scale, then drop to zero"
> 
> Were they ever brought into general use?


We had them as 2 x auxiliary generators (about 450kW each?) on the ACT 1 class of steam container ships in 1970. I had an injector blow out of the head and fill the generator flat with diesel mist. Fortunately I had just put my *** out before opening the generator flat door to investigate the issue of one of them loosing power(Smoke)
I seem to recall that someone told me the engines were originally designed for the Centurion tank. If true, it's a good job we never have to rely on them to defend the UK(EEK)


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## howardang

Tim Gibbs said:


> We had them as 2 x auxiliary generators (about 450kW each?) on the ACT 1 class of steam container ships in 1970. I had an injector blow out of the head and fill the generator flat with diesel mist. Fortunately I had just put my *** out before opening the generator flat door to investigate the issue of one of them loosing power(Smoke)
> I seem to recall that someone told me the engines were originally designed for the Centurion tank. If true, it's a good job we never have to rely on them to defend the UK(EEK)[/QUOTE
> I sem to remember them fitted to Atlantic Causeway and Conveyor - G2 Roro container ship around 1969.
> 
> Howard


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## dannic

double acting said:


> In the 1960s Clan Line built, I think it was 4 or 5 ships which had RR generators. They were mounted in the middles, ran at around 1800 revs (I think)
> 
> They did not in theory require any maintenance, apart from oil and water topping up if required. Bendix type electric starters were used. Above them was mounted a monorail which exited, via a removable plate in the after engine room bulkhead, into a cargo hold
> 
> The theory was that after so many hours they would be exchange for one which had been previously overhauled.
> 
> I only stood by one, but I did see the engine room serang prising the bits out of the acoustic barrier after one ran to destruction. The accident report was very brief., along the lines of "I was in the control room, pressed the starter button then watched the revs come up to normal, then off the scale, then drop to zero"
> 
> Were they ever brought into general use?


Port Chalmers & Caroline had 5 DV8 Rolls Royce V8 DGens, 1800 rpm which was max revs to get 60 Hertz. No flywheel, close coupled to alternator, no indicator cocks, individual coolers. Cramped into a large engineroom and third engineers nightmare. Original intent was every time back in UK 1 engine would be exchanged but understandably in the early 70's that didn't happen. So lifted up on deck if weather good or down No.7 hatch to do overhauls.
Atlantic Conveyor, emergency diesels were 2 x straight 8 RR. 

Dannic


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## Derek Roger

Brocklebanks had the first RR generator on one of our steam ships . Then Mahout and Markor both were fitted with RR Generatos as new builds > I found them very good . Derek


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## john g

Yes Mahout, Markor and the Cunard mickey mouse boats all had RR generators. Just needed looking after with very regular oil changes ,only downside was the cooling stack needed regular cleaning when in Calcutta and similar locations.


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## Varley

Engine Serang said:


> Oh it was a Rolls Royce alright and we engineers were ever so proud of it. A Merlin on our ship.
> But a Merlin it was not, if ours had been fitted in a Spitfire wir würden heute Abend alle Deutsch sprechen.
> 
> And Varley would be striding around Douglas in a fetching pair of Lederhosen.


Something like:


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## OilJiver

Varley said:


> Something like:


STEP 7 requires your immdt attention Sparks.


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## Varley

Fix the second step down or, "Humbly ask the Heavenly Father to remove my shortcomings", otherwise 'embrace humility'? I think you would agree that without my shortcomings your eye would have been distracted from the step by my gaily decorated undercomings.


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## OilJiver

Note guest eyes already distracted _away_ from offending “shortcomings”. Perhaps would advise he be offered some of that Riesling you’re chugging, in case “gaily decorated undercomings” come into view.
Whatever - suggest timely fix of second step down. (Then maybe Step 8 not reqd).


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## howardang

dannic said:


> Port Chalmers & Caroline had 5 DV8 Rolls Royce V8 DGens, 1800 rpm which was max revs to get 60 Hertz. No flywheel, close coupled to alternator, no indicator cocks, individual coolers. Cramped into a large engineroom and third engineers nightmare. Original intent was every time back in UK 1 engine would be exchanged but understandably in the early 70's that didn't happen. So lifted up on deck if weather good or down No.7 hatch to do overhauls.
> Atlantic Conveyor, emergency diesels were 2 x straight 8 RR.
> 
> Dannic


Atlantic Causeway also had 2 emergency RR diesel generators.

Howard


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## Nick Jones

I "fondly" remember the RR generators on the Manipur ex Cunard Ivernia. As you said John G. needing constant attention. How many did we lose in the States, before we sailed along with the Chief Engineer. Power wise they where not bad, I had one continue to make power with a rod flapping out on the crankcase, before it shut down on loss of oil pressure,but that's another story.
Cheers,
Nick Jones.


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## Engine Serang

Varley said:


> Something like:


Not really Lederhosen in Munich, more like Pontefract Man on holiday in Blackpool with knotted hankie in pocket.

ps. Braces could be a smidgen wider. Must keep up with fashion trends.


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## Burntisland Ship Yard

The Danish class has RR emergency alternators up on the old man's deck {"D" deck I think], on my first trip the RR alternator had 86 running hours on the clock, when we went to dry dock in May {I think} the roller was used as shore side power and we all stayed on board.


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## Engine Serang

The Danish Class were a bit troublesome but less so than the Hamburg Class, which were really Shell M Class.
A story about the Denmark from an old shipmate;
from Jim Smith Engineer Officer "
On a nice sunny early May day 1972 in Lisbon in the company of a number of well refreshed engineers we proceeded to join this vessel. As we neared the vessel low and behold we could see a great yellow monster astride the poop. It had four stubby legs and a long silver snout, it was being held in position by great wires. A huge lead came from the aft accommodation and also held the monster. A quick pull on the hipflasks and we could see the legendary words on the monster K O N G. A surge of excitement went through us, they had caught the legendary King Kong of movie fame, albeit it was not big and hairy, but yellow with a long snout was fine.

"We had visions of cruising the African coast exhibiting the monster, what money we would make, permanently overflowing hipflasks, a lady or two and other nice things. As we neared the vessel we could make out further writing on the monster "Kongsberg Gas Turbines" it said,what a let down.

"We got aboard the vessel and met the other engineers who were leaving in a hurry. They muttered words concerning spacial turbo alternators, which in our condition meant new technology afoot.
No wonder men of our calibre had been specially selected to join this vessel, it said so on the letter.

"We got down below agog to see this new alternator and Tommy Copeland 2nd Engineer directed us to it. It was a bloody big empty space. Tommy said we don't have any trouble with it, its the only thing on the ship we don't have any trouble with. It does not give out much power as its in a parallel universe. I started to worry about this vessel.

"Tommy asked if any of us had motor qualifications and I foolishly said I had a class 2 motor and I had been on motor ships in Blue Funnel. He turned me around and there was a banging abortion, The Headless Moron. I started to worry more about this vessel. We were set for a horror story King Kong vs The Headless Moron with us in between. Tommy had a direct approach to engine room management and he said if you have a motor ticket you must know about gas turbines. I will give you the book and you can get on to King Kong in the morning. You look like a fine sober engineer. I was about to dispute these matters when Tommy mentioned he had a bottle or two of four bells and a case of cold ones in his cabin. I decided to postpone any dispute and told him he dripped common sense.

"When I awakened in the morning we were in the middle of the ocean. I went out to inspect King Kong in the cold light of day, I did not like what I saw. It was a great yellow tin box on two axles with four wheels, it had a towing mechanism, over run braking and was restrained on the deck with shaped plating to contour the wheels. It was wired down. A large cable tray was positioned between the box and the aft accommodation with the power and control cables. Central heating piping ran water to a lube oil cooler about the size of my w-lly. I was now distinctly worried about this vessel.
On consulting the tome I was astounded to discover the machine was for Arctic use only.

"All the lights went out and some one in the engine room run up King Kong, I run up as well, up the bloody deck, past the manifold and took cover behind the windlass. With the whining and screaminig I thought I was being chased. With King Kong running the poop deck was like a Heathrow runway.

"As I approached aft on my way back a message came that Tommy wanted me on the Hedemora, it had collapsed. I thought what have I got myself into..."


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## Varley

You will note that none of these tales of woe are plumbing and not battery stacking. I can believe you have recognised the benefit of braces and probably of a belt or two as well.


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## Derek Roger

john g said:


> Yes Mahout, Markor and the Cunard mickey mouse boats all had RR generators. Just needed looking after with very regular oil changes ,only downside was the cooling stack needed regular cleaning when in Calcutta and similar locations.


Going up to Calcutta was a problem and we had the 2 Chinese fitters stand by and clean the duplex sea water filters fitted on each generator on a regular basis to prevent overheating . The filter mesh was very fine as the cooler stack tubes were of small diameter .
The worst problem was when at anchor in Calcutta at dusk and dawn the shrimps would rise up towards the surface and the duplex filters had to be continually cleaned for about an hour ; as soon as one was cleaned and put back in service the other had to be opened up and cleaned with an air hose to blow out the tiny shrimps ; quite a pile after about an hour ( had to be cleaned up right away or an awfull stink of rotting shrimp in the hot generator flat .

To prevent potential black outs while navigating the Hoogly one of our Chief Engineers ; Bill Sherett can up with a great solution which worked perfectly . While in Cal we had a pipe fitted to the swimming pool drain line overboard with suitable valves . The procedure was to fill the swimming pool with clean water before navigating up to Cal 
or down from Cal and when it was shrimp time or a lot of debris in the cooling water the Auxiliary salt water cooling was shut off and the valves opened to let the swimming pool water gravitate down through the coolers . Worked perfectly with the adequate pressure head from the pool and as I recollect we had enough in the swimming pool to last for about 6 hours. 

Magic Derek


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## Varley

My 18. Sod it. I meant ALL not none


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## Ron Stringer

Varley said:


> My 18. Sod it. I meant ALL not none


In vino, veritas?


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## Varley

23.54z. Definitely post prandial so not without the lubrification of a Rochas or two. (Probably only one. Two bottles a night is a bit much for the ageing constitution).


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## Engine Serang

A Rochas or two?

The Memsahib uses that as perfume. One of youse must be wrong. Does your drink have a floral aftertaste?


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## Varley

Now a lady who wore Fine Tawny might turn even my head!


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## Burntisland Ship Yard

Hi Serang / Peoples "The Danish Class were a bit troublesome but less so than the Hamburg Class, which were really Shell M Class.
A story about the Denmark from an old shipmate;
from Jim Smith Engineer Officer "
On a nice sunny early May day 1972 in Lisbon in the company of a number of well refreshed engineers we proceeded to join this vessel. As we neared the vessel low and behold we could see a great yellow monster astride the poop. It had four stubby legs and a long silver snout, it was being held in position by great wires. A huge lead came from the aft accommodation and also held the monster. A quick pull on the hipflasks and we could see the legendary words on the monster K O N G. A surge of excitement went through us, they had caught the legendary King Kong of movie fame, albeit it was not big and hairy, but yellow with a long snout was fine."

King Kong was fitted onto the Copenhagen, however what replaced King Kong was a Kawasaki beast of a T/A, depending on what was on the board, you could start the IG blower without having to start the diesel. I think the same type of T/A was fitted later on in the Spanish class.

Irrespective happy days !


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## Engine Serang

Varley said:


> Now a lady who wore Fine Tawny might turn even my head!


You live and learn. I never venture beyond a Fonseca and its never let me down. Bit back a few times.


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## Davo Davidson

*RR diesels*

Sailed with a bloke who served his time with RR, said they were fitted in centurion tanks and some fishing boats as main engines and were no problem, they were designed to run at 1500 revs but were increased to 1800 for the 60Hz frequency, therein lay the problem


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## Engine Serang

Rolls have taken a bit of a kicking, and deservedly so, but I have to say Dormans were no great shakes.
And as for Fodens, the less said the better.


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## Tim Gibbs

Engine Serang said:


> Rolls have taken a bit of a kicking, and deservedly so, but I have to say Dormans were no great shakes.
> And as for Fodens, the less said the better.


 And then there were the Ruston RPHCZs attempting to run at 1200 rpm .......(Cloud)


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## john g

if I remember rightly the Mahout occasionaly had issues with auxy cooling when running full astern which was overcome with the swimming pool mod.


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## Derek Roger

john g said:


> if I remember rightly the Mahout occasionaly had issues with auxy cooling when running full astern which was overcome with the swimming pool mod.


John the swimming pool mod was only done for the Hooley / Calcutta .. We never bothered to fill the pool at any other time ; it was done to overcome the very small bore cooling tubes in the cooler which required a very fine mesh in the duplex filters fitted to each generators aux cooling water inlet . A decent size of cooler would have been the correct and simple fix for Rolls Royce who were not Marine experts .

Derek


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## Derek Roger

I cannot recollect which of the Brocklebank steamship had the 1st prototype Rolls Generator fitted or if it was provided with a sound insulated compartment . The Mahout and Markhor were fitted with two sound insulated compartments each with its own air supply and exhaust ; one Port and the other Stbd. and each contained 2 machines .
During the instalation of the first unit on the steamship Ben Page ( from Yorkshire and always with pipe in mouth was one of the engineers at the time )
When I sailed with him on the Moss Tanker Lucigen ( the nightmares reurn ) he related how during the installation of the Rolls was done mostly by one man in a set of working RR coveralls and supervised by a number of " office types " clad in suits and white lab coats .
When the installation was almost complete and preparing for a test run Ben pointing with finger asked what was that gauge for ? One of the suited lab coat whallas smiled and replied " That is to show you the lub oil pressure going to the engine " Ben replied " Then why is it positioned before the oil filters "
Silence then much muttering between the white coats .
Next morning sure enough there was the poor guy in the coveralls redoing the piping and placing the oil gauge after the filters at the engine inlet .
Much giggling and joy to all the Brocks engineers in particular Ben Page .

Happy Days Derek


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## reefrat

We won a contract to supply and operate the PRC with 6 complete remote area exploration crews, Among the gear were 4 Rolls Royce 450 Kva generators per crew. We had used 8V92T or the more prefered Cat power packs in the past, and were assured by the supply mob that Rolls were more expensive but much better. The Cats would run for years as did the Jimmies with regular oil and filters changes. Every couple of years we had to pull heads of the Jimmies as the water gallery seals would get a bit soft but that was the only spanner work required. The rollers were a nightmare, if you did not adjust the valve clearance ever 250 hours they would wear out the tappet faces, get missaligned and fracture the tappet arm. We complained bitterly to the purchasing mob, all 24 of them were the same.
News filtered up to us on the tibetan plateau later that the chief buyer was riding around Houston in new Roller


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## Dartskipper

There have been a few mentions of Rolls Royce diesel engines being used in Centurion tanks. I think this must be disinformation broadcast by the RR installation gangs to give themselves some credibility.

Centurion tanks, like the Cromwell before it, were powered by a Meteor V12 petrol engine which was developed by Rover from the Rolls Royce Merlin V12 petrol engine. (A cut down V8 version was installed in the Thornycroft Mighty Antar tank transporter. This engine was configured to run on diesel fuel and was called the Meteorite.) I believe that in later years the Rover Meteor was modified to run on any available fuel.

I have known of straight 6 cylinder RR diesels being used in small vessels, which may have been produced in the Perkins factory in Peterborough where various straight 6 Volvos, Caterpillars and other varieties were churned out. They were painted the correct colour (yellow for Cats and green for Volvos for example) when they came off the line. So all those proud owners of their twin screw Volvo or Caterpillar powered motor cruisers may have been a little miffed if they found out that they were in fact being propelled by a pair of masquerading Perkins 6354's.)


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## BlueScouse

Is this a Rolls Royce? From the Manipur ex-Ivernia 1976.
My first trip as cadet for 3 weeks.
Was told it was a Rolls but a long time ago but now memory not so good.


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## makko

BlueScouse said:


> Is this a Rolls Royce? From the Manipur ex-Ivernia 1976.
> My first trip as cadet for 3 weeks.
> Was told it was a Rolls but a long time ago but now memory not so good.
> 
> View attachment 193581


Whether a RR or other, what a filthy, dishevelled appearance!


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## Engine Serang

makko said:


> Whether a RR or other, what a filthy, dishevelled appearance!


Port State would not be impressed.


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## OilJiver

Can’t be only one here who’s seen worse!!


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## Engine Serang

So have I but not in the past 10-12 years. Not if you want to sail on the evening tide.


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## Pat Kennedy

makko said:


> Whether a RR or other, what a filthy, dishevelled appearance!


That Ivernia did have engine room problems. I was in her for four voyages from brand new. Crossing the North Atlantic outward bound from Liverpool she developed a heavy rolling motion which resulted (we were told) in the cooling water intake breaking the surface whereupon klaxons would start screeching down the pit and the engine would shut down.I
Despite modifications in drydock after voyage 1, it was still a regular feature when I left her.
(Thumb)


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## Basil

makko said:


> Whether a RR or other, what a filthy, dishevelled appearance!


Oh c'mon; it's not a Concours d'Elegance.

ISTR that the TSYT brigs each had a pair of RR main engines with VP props.

Recollect, as volunteer assistant eng. controlling the engines from the bridge, the CE had told me to keep the revs the same with power changes by altering pitch.
The OM walked up and told me, a real MN engineer, to leave the pitch and change RPM.
My first thought was 'Skip, you have never been in the real Merch!'


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## Olaf_the_blue

BlueScouse said:


> Is this a Rolls Royce? From the Manipur ex-Ivernia 1976.
> 
> Looks vaguely familiar Blue. If I remember correctly there would have originally been a brass RR plaque on the casing at the right of the picture. (You can see where it used to be.) They were invariably stolen as everyone wanted a RR souvenir.
> My first vessel with the ANL was the Bass Trader. A 4,129 gross ton RORO, built 1961, at the State Dockyard Newcastle....(No, the Australian one! You lot pinched the name from us, same as you pinched the corner of our flag.) She had three of those sitting on the plates in the middle of the engine room and a considerably larger RR up fwd driving the bow thruster......When it wasn't bursting into flames.


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## lancslad

Looking at this with interest. I sailed on 4of the 7 Cunard mickey mouse boats, Samaria, Parthia, Ivernia and Scotia. All had 4 RR gen sets in 2 relativly soundproof rooms. The engines were developed for British Rail twin rail cars and set at a 45degree angle underslung. The mounting was different to accomodate the sumps, but all the tapped holes were in our blocks for the different mounting applications. The engines were exchanged for rebuilts but I do not know what the time frame was.
I was an engr app on Samaria and ended my transatlantic career on Scotia as 4th. As such I looked after the purifiers and was instructed not to shut down the DO purifier except for cleaning. The RR diesels required clean fuel.
I remember one trip up the Chesapeake Bay in winter where we had to clean the RR sea water filters every 15 mins to remove the fine ice particles.

Scotia had no such problems in the winter St Lawrence river. The gens used the after peak tank for cooling ,topped up to overflow by an aux sea water pump. The main Sulzer 6rd76 was cooled from the Double bottom tanks.


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## lancslad

BlueScouse said:


> Is this a Rolls Royce? From the Manipur ex-Ivernia 1976.
> My first trip as cadet for 3 weeks.
> Was told it was a Rolls but a long time ago but now memory not so good.
> 
> View attachment 193581


Yes thats one The tank is the fresh water/sea water heat exchanger with the RR plate on it. The SW filters were at deck plate level. That engine was clean compared with the main Sulzers which had major lube oil problems with the exhaust valve seals.


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## OilJiver

Pat Kennedy said:


> ...she developed a heavy rolling motion which resulted (we were told) in the cooling water intake breaking the surface whereupon klaxons would start screeching down the pit and the engine would shut down..


Aye Pat, fairly common smaller/shallow draft vessels. (& not most fun as you’ll remember)


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## OilJiver

Engine Serang said:


> So have I but not in the past 10-12 years...


Yes. Long time ago now, but once took over a job where all 4 main DGs _looked_ V presentable – smart even. But none could take full load & 2 had _disquieting_ LO dilution.
Later learned previous maintainer was reputed “_sh1t engineer but fcuking good painter!_” Not wrong.


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## Varley

I have no doubt that this little trick would work (or be thought to work) in similar cir***stances although I have to say a Rollergenerator would have been likely to reveal itself more obviously (and more noisily).

Afran Equator. A difficult ship suspected of being so before taking over from managers using Italian crew (which is one reason I was there).

The boiler had an auxiliary burner to top up waste generated steam production for the T/A. OK when alight but refused to light automatically and could not be turned down sufficiently to stop it cutting out. So UMS running would have been difficult. This behaviour we were not told of. Evidence to the contrary - satisfactory T/A performance evidenced by lack of hours on the diesel (A Ruston ? - anyway known for fuel dilution problems). The T/A had no running hours meter with which to cross check had we had the urge to do so.

When the difficulty of keeping the boiler automatically fired was recognised we did give thought to the running hours meter.

An examination of its terminals showed that one grub screw slot was fan shaped from being done and undone so many times. Connected when it was logged as running. Disconnected when it was running without the benefit of an honest historian!


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## Engine Serang

Be suspicious of the engineer with a white boiler suit, Checklists with all boxes ticked, all Planned Maintenance completed by due date and a Log Book without teacup rings, smudges or sweat stains on it. 
Change the oil filters or brasso the copper piping? I know what I would prefer. Generally if it looks too good it probably is too good.


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## Derek Roger

Another problem with the RR Generators on the Mahout / Mahkor were incidents which happened twice . The first on my watch when I was sailing 3rd Eng ; I could hear very heavy hunting of the Alternator loads and went to the switch board only to find I had no control of the load sharing ; the no 4 alternator seemed to be the culprit with the load behaving erratically with huge swings , I started another machine and tried to parallel with no joy ; I then tried to shed all the load on the bad machine and tried to get it to trip off the board on reverse current without ant luck . Finally I got a plastic bag the spare air filters were shipped in and put it over the air filter inlet and chocked of the air supply to the machine which shut down in seconds and tripped off the board on reverse current . I then synchronised the other machine I had running and got the preferential trips all set again ; we were lucky not to black out. The culprit machine was found to be very low on oil ; the problem found to be upon examination to be a failed turbocharger oil seal ( The RR turbo chargers were supplied with oil from the engine oil system ) thus the engine was getting an ungoverned supply of fuel ( Lub oil ) direct into the air supply and hence the hunting and uncontrollable load sharing .
After that both Mahout and Markhor always had a couple of plastic bags hanging on hooks on the adjacent bulkhead .
I was always wary of turbo chargers that were fed with oil from the engine system instead of their own lubrication system which was only a small volume of oil which would burn off very quickly.

I have a couple more stories about the RR Alternators which will have to keep for another day ; however I found them to be good machines ; lightweight and efficient but very loud . Always did the overhauls in the sound proofed well ventilated compartments in perfect conditions with the running machines in the other compartment.

Happy Days Derek


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## sternchallis

Engine Serang said:


> Rolls have taken a bit of a kicking, and deservedly so, but I have to say Dormans were no great shakes.
> And as for Fodens, the less said the better.


I thought Fodens were trucks.
Possibly Horizontal Commer Two Strokes with superchargers.


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## sternchallis

Pat Kennedy said:


> That Ivernia did have engine room problems. I was in her for four voyages from brand new. Crossing the North Atlantic outward bound from Liverpool she developed a heavy rolling motion which resulted (we were told) in the cooling water intake breaking the surface whereupon klaxons would start screeching down the pit and the engine would shut down.I
> Despite modifications in drydock after voyage 1, it was still a regular feature when I left her.
> (Thumb)


Pat,
You need to roll a long way for a salt water suction to come up for air, and would the engine shut down on SW pressure, perhaps not, more like the Lube Oil sump was a bit low and that would tend to shut the engine down if the roll was too long. The cure for that, is to add more oil to the sump, as in the Viking Passenger ships example.
If she was going over that far and the engine was cutting out I think you would have been in serious trouble. Was she light ship?


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## Engine Serang

Ton Class minesweepers had two Foden driven generators for ship services and a much bigger Mirlees for the pulse system.


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## sternchallis

Just to side track- I don't suppose there are any IT Nostalgia websites, they live such boring lives writing code all day. Perhaps they could wax lyrical about the days of DOS or Windows 95.

The experiences that come out of this website are so interesting, we lived a charmed life, no job shoreside in later life was any bother as we had trained the hard way with a myriad of machinery of many different makes and problems. 
You couldn't get the makers man in middle of the Pacific, you just fixed it. 

Very few went on training courses like they do today, it was a case of Romper suits at 9.am your training starts then, unless you got the short straw and your DoB started soon as you crossed the weather step.


Sounds like some had more problems than others. Cannot say I ever was on a ship that had the sort of generator problems stated above, but we had 4 NA Rustons 450 rpm on DC , 3 in use with a full fridge cargo or 4 TC 6& 8 cyl Allens running at 600 rpm on AC that weren't over stretched even on the blood. 
On a Brazilian built ship we had 3 truck size engines for generators as it was general cargo and they gave no trouble after the maiden voyage when we had to replace some bushes in the fv pockets on all 3 engines, due to a design fault.


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## johnBP1

If I recall correctly BP tried an RR gen on one of their tankers (dont know the name) according to a "pal" it worked great and was hauled out on dry dock...


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## Pat Kennedy

sternchallis said:


> Pat,
> You need to roll a long way for a salt water suction to come up for air, and would the engine shut down on SW pressure, perhaps not, more like the Lube Oil sump was a bit low and that would tend to shut the engine down if the roll was too long. The cure for that, is to add more oil to the sump, as in the Viking Passenger ships example.
> If she was going over that far and the engine was cutting out I think you would have been in serious trouble. Was she light ship?


No, she was down to her marks. But, she did roll heavily on the outward passage to New York. Homeward bound she pitched
heavily, but no engine shutdown. 
I did four voyages in her and this was the regular scenario.
In all other respects she was a fine ship on a brilliant run.
(Thumb)


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## holland25

sternchallis said:


> I thought Fodens were trucks.
> Possibly Horizontal Commer Two Strokes with superchargers.


Remember the Commer two strokes had a couple as trucks,not very good engines.


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## skilly57

The RNZN had 16 x 72 ft HDMLs delivered in 1943 - all built in USA with Greymarine diesels. In the late 1950s the Greys were replaced by marinised Foden 2-stroke truck engines. The Foden Mk 1s and Mk 6s were inline 6-cylinder engines. But some boats got the Mk 12s, which had two side-by-side inline 6-cylinders cast in the same block. The two crankshafts were geared together at the aft end before disappearing into a Twin Disc gearbox. Stupid part was, all three engine models swung the same dia & pitch prop. So the Mk 12s guzzled twice the juice for the same speed as the other two types!
I spent 5 years on these boats in the RNZNVR. I think the Rootes blowers buggered my hearing before I even went to merchant ships with quieter engines.
Attached is a photo I took in 1972, in the bowels of HMNZS Kuparu (P.3563). This boat has recently been restored, and is now happily steaming around NZ (2018 photo attached) with these same engines in her, but spares are very scarce. The exhaust noise has a very distinct 'cackle' to it when running around 1800 rpm. We have 4 of these boats still running around NZ.

The 850 sister ships built in the UK during WWII had 8L3 Gardners installed - a much better idea. I visited HMS 'Medusa' in Gosport last year - she is very well cared for, and still does around 300 hours/year on her original Gardners.

Skilly


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## Rosels

A sight for tired old eyes Tony. Almost had a stiffy . Sleeping on the ER plates probably didn't help the ears. And also the blaspheming when icky wouldn't cooperate probably contributed to the hearing issues. Good times


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## OilJiver

sternchallis said:


> You need to roll a long way for a salt water suction to come up for air, and would the engine shut down on SW pressure, perhaps not,....?


You do indeed need a bit of a roll (or pitch) on for the sea boxes to break surface. But on a smaller vessel in a big sea it happens sometimes. And when it happens and SW pump(s) lose suction, the ship’s motion can make it v difficult to get them primed again. So JW & LO temps start to come up & it is those high temps (not low SW press) that may cause/necessitate the job shut down. Far from ideal.


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## sternchallis

Yes, thats a good way of describing the sound of the the Foden, a Cackle.

Now you are talking Gardners, they were the Rolls Royce of diesels.
I remember as an apprentice going on a visit to Gardners factory in Patricroft, near Manchester. 
We saw everything from casting the blocks to machining the crankshafts on the strange lathes, assembly and testing. Quite an interesting day.
Later in my apprenticeship they took one out of a Snibbie ( small wooden Danish fishing boat) dismantled it completely, boiled up the block and and rest of the parts to degrease them , we then fitted new white metal bearing, initialy using engineers blue, then taking leads and scraping in the bearings.
They were well built and dependable, real plodders.

As soon as you start upping the rpm and powers of engines and lightening them then you start to see problems.

You often see Gardners as truck based generators at these mobile Fair Grounds, to power the rides, perhaps driving DC generators.
Sadly this marque has now disapeared, taken over and shut down.
Other makes I came across were Russel Newbury (a favourite of canal boats in their smaller models), Rustons, Mirlees, Listers, Petters, Pellerpone Ricardo( pre-combustion chamber using a *** end type cartridge start, the French were involved with this one, weird fuel pump and injector).


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## Varley

Rolls Royce of diesels? The Sunderland Forge of Switchboards.

Damning with no praise.


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## Engine Serang

The Marconi of marine radar.


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## stevekelly10

johnBP1 said:


> If I recall correctly BP tried an RR gen on one of their tankers (dont know the name) according to a "pal" it worked great and was hauled out on dry dock...


The British Lancer had an emergency Rolls Royce generator on her when I sailed on it 1972. Cannot remember it ever being a problem ?


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## Varley

Engine Serang said:


> The Marconi of marine radar.


Certainly of the Radiolocator (as in the models on T. Denmark and not, I think, designed by MIMCO) the Radiolocator models I had on the GTVs (including then the only S Band transceiver) were a different and altogether better kettle of fish.


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## skilly57

Rosels said:


> A sight for tired old eyes Tony. Almost had a stiffy . Sleeping on the ER plates probably didn't help the ears. And also the blaspheming when icky wouldn't cooperate probably contributed to the hearing issues. Good times


Almost expect Humperdink to come around the corner!!

Happy New Year Robin.

Gotta say, the 2.4 ton per side Gardner installation looks far nicer than those screaming little half-ton Fodens. The Gardners didn't even need 1000 rpm, let alone the 2,200 sometimes seen in these boats! 

The Gardners would have sounded like a lullaby too!


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## jmirvine

Engine Serang said:


> Ton Class minesweepers had two Foden driven generators for ship services and a much bigger Mirlees for the pulse system.


Some had 3 Fodens and a Napier Deltic for the Pulse generator. Main engines were also Deltics, but bigger.


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## david freeman

I just wonder who design and build the RN Main gas turbine plants--do Rolls have a better, more appreciative engineering audience, rather than this SN clientele, who take the name of RR with a pinch of salt?


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## YM-Mundrabilla

The Commonwealth Railways here in Oz bought three Budd railcars from the USA in 1950. These were fitted with two GM 6-110 series diesels. During the 1960s it was intended to replace all six GM engines with RR C6TFH MK4 engines. Only one railcar was so fitted with, apparently, disappointing' results.


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## Engine Serang

david freeman said:


> I just wonder who design and build the RN Main gas turbine plants--do Rolls have a better, more appreciative engineering audience, rather than this SN clientele, who take the name of RR with a pinch of salt?


RR aero engines have not been totally trouble free over the years.


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## Varley

No one was damning their petrol or gas turbine offerings only those modelled on Dr. Rudolph's proposal. One, in their case, which should have been turned down.


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## Varley

Varley said:


> Certainly of the Radiolocator (as in the models on T. Denmark and not, I think, designed by MIMCO) the Radiolocator models I had on the GTVs (including then the only S Band transceiver) were a different and altogether better kettle of fish.


Bugger. A post of John T's has reminded me that the T. Denmark's were the dreaded Raymarc. Quite easy to fix usually something my boss found handy the amount of practice he got.


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## Phil Randall

*EX Port Line*

I sailed as Sen 2nd Engineer on the Port Chalmers in 1970. I seem to remember that we had 3 RR Alternators and one Turbine Alternator running from waste heat boilers. The RR's gave us more trouble than enough and we had a spare on the deck which we changed later in the trip. The Port Caroline had more problems than we did and they were very proud of their "Black Museum". Pretty much any fault you could dream of was experienced. Rolls Royce were mystified as they claimed that that model was used in trains with no problems. During the course of the trip we lost all power entering the Brisbane river. On investigation we found that the suction pipe in the fuel tank was drawing from the very bottom of the tank and we had been running on contaminated fuel since the ship was built, which might explain why we were continually changing injectors.
The company had great difficulty getting the ships delivered as they were the last order for the yard and were a year behind schedule. The Chalmers was not returned after the first engine trials with pages of faults to be ironed out over the first few trips. Both ships were scrapped in the eighties.
Phil Randall.


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## alaric

*Gardners*

A wonderful craftsman built engine that will last indefinitely given a little love and care. As Sternchallis says, still in daily use running travelling fairs.
There were as near 'Africa Proof' as machines got, back in the 1960-70s.
They are probably still going there as well?


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## Dartskipper

alaric said:


> A wonderful craftsman built engine that will last indefinitely given a little love and care. As Sternchallis says, still in daily use running travelling fairs.
> There were as near 'Africa Proof' as machines got, back in the 1960-70s.
> They are probably still going there as well?


Some were certainly exported to China in the 1980's to drive irrigation pumps. A Gardner Service agent in Brixham used to sell on old engines that had been replaced in the local fishing fleet.


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## dannic

Phil Randall said:


> I sailed as Sen 2nd Engineer on the Port Chalmers in 1970. I seem to remember that we had 3 RR Alternators and one Turbine Alternator running from waste heat boilers. The RR's gave us more trouble than enough and we had a spare on the deck which we changed later in the trip. The Port Caroline had more problems than we did and they were very proud of their "Black Museum". Pretty much any fault you could dream of was experienced. Rolls Royce were mystified as they claimed that that model was used in trains with no problems. During the course of the trip we lost all power entering the Brisbane river. On investigation we found that the suction pipe in the fuel tank was drawing from the very bottom of the tank and we had been running on contaminated fuel since the ship was built, which might explain why we were continually changing injectors.
> The company had great difficulty getting the ships delivered as they were the last order for the yard and were a year behind schedule. The Chalmers was not returned after the first engine trials with pages of faults to be ironed out over the first few trips. Both ships were scrapped in the eighties.
> Phil Randall.


Chalmers and Caroline had 5 DV8 rolls, 4 athwartships and fifth fore and aft on port side! Plus turbo alternator but it was in pieces when I joined, I got the job of installing overhauled rotor, as fiver! would never be used because never running fast enough to generate enough steam for t/a.
Had been talk of installing two rustons or similar for ballast voyages down in shaft tunnel, but never happened.

Dannic


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## reefrat

Some friends clubbed together and bought an old HDML with a Gardner, The normal weeekends were day outings round the bay with wives, girlfriends kids, dogs and plenty of ekskies full of XXXX, One bloke drove and the women and children had picnic lunches on deck,, the blokes sat below beside the engine on special cut down plastic chairs (less than 4 foot headroom) drank our tinnies and listened to the Gardner slide along @ 300 rpm. while the girls passed us prawn sandwiches Engineering heaven.


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## henry1

Never sailed with an RR generator but had a 4/E who had when he was in Harrisons of Liverpool, he said they had four working when they left Liverpool and entered London with one and a half. In the end their C/E told them if there was an alarm to stop it from the control room and not to go to check it because it would have self destructed before they reached it.
That story is one that stuck in my memory.


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## skilly57

https://www.facebook.com/savingkuparu/videos/1024326404609035/

The 'FODEN CACKLE" from P.3563, filmed late in 2019. This 1943 HDML is still leading an active life, in private hands, in New Zealand.


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## dannic

Dartskipper said:


> There have been a few mentions of Rolls Royce diesel engines being used in Centurion tanks. I think this must be disinformation broadcast by the RR installation gangs to give themselves some credibility.
> 
> Centurion tanks, like the Cromwell before it, were powered by a Meteor V12 petrol engine which was developed by Rover from the Rolls Royce Merlin V12 petrol engine. (A cut down V8 version was installed in the Thornycroft Mighty Antar tank transporter. This engine was configured to run on diesel fuel and was called the Meteorite.) I believe that in later years the Rover Meteor was modified to run on any available fuel.
> 
> I have known of straight 6 cylinder RR diesels being used in small vessels, which may have been produced in the Perkins factory in Peterborough where various straight 6 Volvos, Caterpillars and other varieties were churned out. They were painted the correct colour (yellow for Cats and green for Volvos for example) when they came off the line. So all those proud owners of their twin screw Volvo or Caterpillar powered motor cruisers may have been a little miffed if they found out that they were in fact being propelled by a pair of masquerading Perkins 6354's.)


Read in Autocar magazine last month that Chieftain tank had Rolls Royce opposed piston engine, must be something like Napier Deltic ….heaven help us!!

Dannic


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## Dartskipper

*Chieftan Tank Engine.*

There is one of these engines on display at the Tank Museum in Bovington. It's a huge beast, and some accounts say that it was very high performance, but even higher maintenance!:sweat:


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## Steve Oatey

They were rumoured to use a gallon per mile, plus a gallon to start up.


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