# Offshore workers



## billyboy (Jul 6, 2005)

Offshore workers about to get a kicking from the tax man now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/north_east/7638490.stm


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## Ray Mac (Sep 22, 2007)

It's a kick in the teeth for all workers offshore, I was on the Stena Wellserver many years ago she was a ship then I cannot understand the Revenue thinking otherwise(MAD) (Cloud)


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

I read about this in a national newspaper, it an absolute disgrace. Richard Branson, oops sorry, I meant Sir Richard Branson wrote an article in the Daily Mail whereby he admits spending a lot of time abroad in one of his houses to avoid paying tax, so that he can give more to charity, yeah! and I've just seen a pig flying past my window.
There many other super rich people in this country who avoid paying tax, these are the people that should be targeted, not ordinary workers.

Regards Robert


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## Geoff_E (Nov 24, 2006)

I think a lot of this comes from the fairly indiscriminate issue of discharge books to personnel (non merchant navy) working on ships, rigs etc.

The tax concession was originally targeted at seafarers only i.e. deck, engine room & catering personnel. The issue of discharge books to people outside these categories began in the late '80's, early 90's and has led to quite a bit of bad feeling


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## Pat McCardle (Jun 12, 2005)

Geoff_E said:


> I think a lot of this comes from the fairly indiscriminate issue of discharge books to personnel (non merchant navy) working on ships, rigs etc.
> 
> The tax concession was originally targeted at seafarers only i.e. deck, engine room & catering personnel. The issue of discharge books to people outside these categories began in the late '80's, early 90's and has led to quite a bit of bad feeling


Hear Hear(Thumb)


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## jimmys (Jan 5, 2007)

If a vessel is designated as not being a ship it will not come under the various regulations for ships ie. load line, safety equipment,manning etc.

I can see some problems in this direction with these vessels if they are at sea.

The issue of discharge books was so that the persons working on the vessels could easily be signed on as crew. Lots of them on passenger ships not deck engine or catering.

regards
jimmy


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## Geoff_E (Nov 24, 2006)

_"The issue of discharge books was so that the persons working on the vessels could easily be signed on as crew. Lots of them on passenger ships not deck engine or catering."_

True perhaps in earlier days, but not applicable to the categories I had in mind who, though possessing discharge books, are not signed on a vessel's articles.


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## timo (May 25, 2004)

This is a tax concession for seafarers, over the years it has been abused, offshore workers on platforms and rigs have tried to claim their tax back as have other offshore personnel, I was working on an AHTS several years ago that was doing some ROV/subsea work and all most all the guys who were on board involved with the ROV had seamans discharge books, purely to claim their tax back, our skipper stamped their books for them but only after being told to by our employer.


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## jimmys (Jan 5, 2007)

*Offshore Workers*

Hi Geoff,

If they are on a ship working and the ship is at sea and they are not signed on. What category are they, I assume they are not passengers.

I used to inspect the North Sea rigs and ships until about 1992. Everybody was signed on the ships. Most of the rigs were not classed as ships.

I am a bit out of date.

regards
jimmy


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## Geoff_E (Nov 24, 2006)

Hello Jimmy,

I think timo touched on it accurately in the last post; but also include divers and their support staff, positioning surveyors etc. etc. Some of them on day rates that would make your eyes water!


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## Ray Mac (Sep 22, 2007)

This also covers AB/Crane ops and all marine crew, Offshore catering (ex seaman most of them)


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## jimmys (Jan 5, 2007)

*Ofshore Workers*

Yes Geoff I see now. Its just groups of workers on the ships they are going to make non seafarers. The ships and the crew as we know are going to stay the same. I had visions of ships not now being ships.

The BBC report was a bit poorly written I suppose to egg up the case. I dont suppose there will be much sympathy for these groups among seafarers.

regards
jimmy


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Jimmy,
It's going to affect everyone onboard, whether Professional Seamen or not. The entire ship is now classed as a fixed installation by HMRC (Taxman) for Tax Purposes. This has nothing to do with the MCA, therefore there will be no change to the status of the ship in the eyes of the MCA with regards to certification and legislation etc,
It's purely a tax fiddle by the Govt.


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## Don Matheson (Mar 13, 2007)

Some time after leaving the MN I was working on the semi submersible Benreoch the Atlantic Drilling vessel. We were told to take our discharge books and were signed on articles as any other seaman. Worked in Israel but HMRC didnt want to give us our tax back until it was pointed out we were working overseas, it was classed as a ship as it had two hulls, two propellers, was self propelled and in they end we got our tax back. But only registered seafarers got the tax back, dont think the others got it.
I was signed on as 2/E from Jan 94 till July 96 Helped pay off my house.
Don


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## jimmys (Jan 5, 2007)

*Offshore Workers*

Hi Jim,

I was trained in Offshore Industry but it was late 1980's, still Dept of Transport. The debate came up at that time about ships and offshore installations. Some were designated ships and some offshore installations. I cannot remember the criteria. There was a lot of arguments. Around 1992 all the rigs were given to Health and Safety and the ships stayed with what is now MCA. They were hived off to Lloyds etc. I have looked at the ships through the years.

It will be difficult for one part of GovUK to designate a vessel as a fixed installation and another part of GovUK to say it is a ship. I would think there must be a legal challenge. The commissioners are not sufficient for this.
The persons losing the tax right maybe being discriminated against, maybe ECHR article 14.

This is a difficult one.

regards
jimmy


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## jonnie (Dec 29, 2006)

think persons on a ship who are working but not critical to the ships operation, can sign on only as supernumaries. In which case they dont get books stamped.


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## jimmys (Jan 5, 2007)

*Offshore Workers*

Supernumary is usually a relative or riding crew and would not sign on as actual crew. They would not have a discharge book anyway. We used to carry fitters as riding crew. Travelled on the passport as did the wives.

Surely they are not signing them all on as supernumaries.

regards
jimmy


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Re: Supernumaries
I've sailed on ships with wives onboard, some of whom had their own discharge book! This was signed by the Old Man as normal with rank laid down as 'Supernumary'.


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## Pat McCardle (Jun 12, 2005)

Surely they are not signing them all on as supernumaries.

Why not? A supernumary is an employee who works but is not part of the manpower compliment & he is probably earning footballers wages too(EEK)


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## jonnie (Dec 29, 2006)

On the jigsaw boats when I left, they were talkin about the ARRC crews (most of who didnt have quals to work on the RSV) getting signed on as supernumaries. They were only qualified to work on the ARRCs which were ships in their own right, but didnt have articles. There was a lot of unhappy folks.


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## jimmys (Jan 5, 2007)

*Offshore Workers*

I was on a vessel about 1992 testing the original Caley Davit. It was to be the first SOLAS approved RIB launch davit.
I was the Engineer Surveyor performing the stress analysis and testing out on the North Sea. I had carried out all the design approval for the davit.
I cant remember the ship name, but she was a big supply boat.
Myself a Bosun and an AB were signed on the vessel for the tests as Extra ChEng, Extra Bosun and Extra AB. Every one on the tests had to be signed on and qualified.

As well as the tests we were rolling it out to see how the boys liked it. It was very successful a lot better than what they had. 

I suppose the jigsaw boats are moving it forward a bit. PS I never got any tax back.

regards
jimmy


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## Ray Mac (Sep 22, 2007)

*Tax*

I did not realise we had such a different view of what is a SEAMAN(H) I Bet the OIM on a FSU has a FG Masters (Not a seaman?) or the OIM on most production platforms has been to sea. Also the Engineers and Crane drivers Deck Forman, Camp Boss. Most will be ex seaman. I would think the ones with OOW certificates of service are the ones with sour grapes because they are stuck with the rank and cannot get any higher. (Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk) sad boys (Smoke)


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## jonnie (Dec 29, 2006)

*SEAFARERS* tax

Taken from HMRC website....

How SED works
To get the deduction you must:

Work on a ship. Oilrigs and other offshore installations aren't ships for the purposes of SED - but cargo vessels, tankers, cruise liners and passenger vessels are. 
Work all or part of the time outside the UK. This means that for each employment you must carry out duties on at least one voyage that begins or ends at a foreign port. 
Be 'resident' and 'ordinarily resident' in the UK.

Who can get the deduction
Anyone who works on a ship can get the deduction. For example, you can get it if you are employed as an entertainer, cook, travel courier or musician.

You can't get the deduction if:

you are a Crown employee - so Royal Navy sailors can't get it 
you're not resident in the UK - but there may be other tax reliefs you can claim which we explain later 



Taken from an online dictionary....

sea·far·er (sfârr)
n.
1. A sailor or mariner.
2. One who travels by sea



sea·man (smn)
n.
1. A mariner or sailor.


No sour grapes here. I'm a seafarer, I work on a ship, I work in foreign waters. BUT, because I work on a dive ship, I cannot now claim my tax back.
So I'm pi**ed off. 
Without doubt this will lead to British seafarers leaving British vessels and allowing more foreign seafarers in. 

But I guess the Govern ment must have some kind of masterplan......


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## Ray Mac (Sep 22, 2007)

I hope enough pressure is placed on the government to overturn this rule on FED and ALL personnel get their tax back if they have the 184 day's outside of the UK water. It's not just Divers - ROV crews but ship[p's marine crew that is involved in this shambles, We should all fight this together it's not a case of them and us.


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## Nick Balls (Apr 5, 2008)

Its totally correct that the system has been abused. 
The real question is . Exactly why do we still sign on ships? Most of us have some form of company contract. I have asked this question a few times over the years and never had a totally convincing answer as to why this is so. 
One reason to get our tax back is because of the " Strategic" role the merchant navy has to our island nation. Looking at some tax legislation (No expert!) I see there is in places mention of "The Armed forces and Merchant Navy" Why? 
My own experience of a lifetime at sea is that I have hardly ever been able to claim back tax. The fact is many offshore workers got away with dubious claims while many honest people have been pursued by the tax man relentlessly. This has lead to a lot of bad feeling and sense of injustice. 
I think I am right in saying that offshore workers took the government to 
court in about 1997 over the meaning of the term "Ship" they won the case but HM Gov then changed the rules.


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## selwyn thomas (Mar 22, 2007)

Nick Balls said:


> Its totally correct that the system has been abused.
> The real question is . Exactly why do we still sign on ships? Most of us have some form of company contract. I have asked this question a few times over the years and never had a totally convincing answer as to why this is so.
> One reason to get our tax back is because of the " Strategic" role the merchant navy has to our island nation. Looking at some tax legislation (No expert!) I see there is in places mention of "The Armed forces and Merchant Navy" Why?
> My own experience of a lifetime at sea is that I have hardly ever been able to claim back tax. The fact is many offshore workers got away with dubious claims while many honest people have been pursued by the tax man relentlessly. This has lead to a lot of bad feeling and sense of injustice.
> ...


Hi nick, Maybe the below will explain the unfortunate change of name to MN.

The Merchant Navy has been in existence for a significant period in British history, owing much of its growth to British imperial expansion. As an entity in itself it can be dated back to the 17th century, where an attempt was made to register all seamen as a source of manpower for the Royal Navy during times of conflict. However the registration of merchant seamen failed, and it was not successfully implemented until 1835. The merchant fleet grew over successive years to become the worlds foremost merchant fleet, benefitting considerably from trade with British possessions in India and the Far East. The lucrative trade in sugar, spices and tea (carried by ships such as the Cutty Sark) helped to solidify this dominance in the 19th century.

Main articles: Battle of the Atlantic (1914-1918) and Battle of the Atlantic (1939-1945).
During the First and Second World Wars, the Merchant Service suffered heavy losses from German U-boat attacks. A policy of unrestricted warfare meant that merchant seamen were also at risk of attack from enemy ships. The tonnage lost to U-boats during the First World War was around 7,759,090 tons, and around 14,661 merchant seamen lost their lives. In honour of the sacrifice made by merchant seamen during the First World War, King George V granted the title "Merchant Navy" to the service. The Prince of Wales was made the Master of the Merchant Navy.


I have always hated the term Merchant Navy when Merchant Service was our proper role in life.Also, did the prince of Wales have a foreign going Masters ticket ????????


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