# Stoker to Engineer?



## Engineers descendant

Is it safe to say that you would have to start out as a ship's stoker before you could progress to an engineer? And if so, were there any other roles inbetween that were mandatory for moving up the career ladder?


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## Varley

In Scandenavia it would be common (perhaps universal) for all to start at the most junior rank in the department.

In the Commonwealth it was more normal for deck officers to serve at sea as apprentice, latterly cadet, before elibale to become watch officer grade (in earlier times with or without certificate which now compulsory).

Engineers could serve an apprenticeship in a suitable industry ashore or afloat before eligable to serve as watch officer (again in earlier times certification for watch officer was not necessary as it now is).

I sailed with very few officerrs who had started "in the forecastle head" or in the stokehold (what the RN would call" hauled through the hawse pipe" or it was in my father's day).

David V


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## McCloggie

The term "Stoker" is confusing.

Yes, originally it meant the person who shovelled coal into the furnaces. In Royal Navy terms however the definition changed. As more specialist engineering types were needed, they became Artificers - skilled tradesmen. Today (well in my time anyway!) there are Artificers (who tend to be POs/CPOs) and Mechanicians - referred to as Stokers. The PO/CPO grade for stoker therefore manage the junior rates. The Cheif Engingineer on a small warship may well be a Chief Artificer. A good percentage of RN officers start as junior rates or Artificers to this day.

Merchant Navy wise I am not too sure about but I while not impossible I would have thought it difficult for an old style stoker - fireman - to become a qualified officer.

I am of course ready to be corected.

McC


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## G0SLP

I've sailed with several ER Ratings over the years who I could see had potential. Pointed them in the right direction, & they're now Certificated Engineer Officers themselves.


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## Cisco

My nephew was a stoker in the RAN but the rank vanished when the DDGs went... not sure what his next rank was but he wears a suit these days and works with the DoD in Canberra......


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## Jocko

To qualify as a Ships Engineer in the UK you had to serve a five year apprenticeship in Heavy Engineering. Heavy engineering was working with engines with a crankshaft over 6 inches diameter. The apprenticeship would also include training on Lathes, Milling, Drilling and Shape machines. Welding and brazing was also a necessity.


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## Ron Stringer

Jocko said:


> To qualify as a Ships Engineer in the UK you had to serve a five year apprenticeship in Heavy Engineering. Heavy engineering was working with engines with a crankshaft over 6 inches diameter. The apprenticeship would also include training on Lathes, Milling, Drilling and Shape machines. Welding and brazing was also a necessity.


Sailed on a steam turbine ship in 1962/63 with a junior who had just served his time in a Dundee jute mill. Don't know how big the machines were in there but I doubt that they were of the dimensions that you quote. This suggests tha there must have been some alternative route to becoming an engineer.


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## Ray Mac

Jocko said:


> To qualify as a Ships Engineer in the UK you had to serve a five year apprenticeship in Heavy Engineering. Heavy engineering was working with engines with a crankshaft over 6 inches diameter. The apprenticeship would also include training on Lathes, Milling, Drilling and Shape machines. Welding and brazing was also a necessity.


Sailed with a few Motormen that went to college for the oow certificate.


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## surfaceblow

In the US the unlicense ratings can take the license exam after three years sea time.

Joe


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## Jocko

I never actually ever have seen any regulations categorizing an engineer, it`s just something we always heard about. In saying that I once sailed with a First Tripper from Wallsend. He had served his time in the shipyard but all he ever did was put up pipes. He had never seen an engine until he boarded his first ship.


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## Malky Glaister

I have gone from Chief Engineer to stoker!!

I look after a coal fired mill boiler and shovel quite a lot of coal!

I enjoy it too

regards Malky


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## Derek Roger

Ron Stringer said:


> Sailed on a steam turbine ship in 1962/63 with a junior who had just served his time in a Dundee jute mill. Don't know how big the machines were in there but I doubt that they were of the dimensions that you quote. This suggests tha there must have been some alternative route to becoming an engineer.


Ron ;
The jute mills had quite a big power plant ; boilers and full steam plant , perhaps thats where he worked .

My grandfather went the other way from Chief Engineeer at sea to Chief Engineer in a Jute Mill in Calcutta .


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## E.Martin

If I remember right if a Fireman or Stoker was doing the job as a Engineer and has no qualificatons he was known as a Shovel Engineer.


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## chadburn

Mc C is more or less correct, the transition was based on the change of Machinery in the R.N. It was Stoker when the ships plant was mainly steam, then Stoker/ Mech with diesel's, then when the steam plant was reduced due to the R.N's love of the Gas Turbine it was Mechanician's.
Merchant Navy use to be, Time served Apprenticeship (preferably in a Shipyard/Repair Yard, however other industries were considered especially if they had steam plant and this was reflected in your pre seagoing grading.
If you had served your time in a ship repair/building yard you could go to sea at the age of 20.
I have not come across an individual who was a Fireman (under the UK Flag) and then became an Engineer (although I could not say it has never happened), other Maritime Nation's did have this career development route.


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## Duncan112

Ron Stringer said:


> Sailed on a steam turbine ship in 1962/63 with a junior who had just served his time in a Dundee jute mill. Don't know how big the machines were in there but I doubt that they were of the dimensions that you quote. This suggests tha there must have been some alternative route to becoming an engineer.


an apprenticeship on shafts over 6" diameter gave you maximum remission of sea time for sitting your Second Class Certificate. Additional sea time was assessed by the Examiner of Engineers prior to starting your sea service. I sailed with a number of engineers that had served their time with aircraft companies and had to serve an additional 6 months sea time before sitting for their Certificate.

It is not impossible that some of the rollers on the looms had bearings of over 6" diameter. 

Seem to recall that the crankshaft on some Ruston and Allen engines was fractionally over 6" diameter - could this be a way of ensuring that their apprentices could have a trouble free passage to sea if they wished.

Very little info available on the MCA website about how it is done now - I would think that an engineering apprentice going to sea is a very rare beast indeed - I sailed with an ex H&W apprentice who came to sea about 1996 - he was the first from H&W for about 20 years.


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## trawlermanpete

Joined the R.N.in 1965 as a stoker,finished up in 2005 as chief engineer on tugs,sat and passed my ticket in the 90's,thanks to Dave Henshaw of West Coast Towing.......Pete


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## colin moore

i joined bp in 1972 as a junior engineer, having been time served in production engineering and tool design. after the usual three weeks induction course, when i joined my first ship i did not even know what a turbine looked like. my senior watchkeeper was an old stoker made good up to third eng at that time. you learned bloody fast. did five years steam, and then five years motor, before being made redundant. loved the motor ships the most as you could play with them to get peak performance.


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## Cutsplice

Sailed with a few engineers who started as firemen/stokers/greasers etc, recall one who was C/E steam and motor who appeared to be a supreme C/E. One day at smoko he lost the 2/E who was a regular on the vessel when they were discussing engineroom matters so much so I left the smoko to avoid embarressing the 2nd. Considering the C/E had only been on board for a couple of weeks I was amazed by his familarity with the E/R. He must have had a great memory as he could name allsorts of pop groups and their individual members etc from the sixties and seventies plus allsorts of football information.


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## jimg0nxx

I have sailed with a numbeer of engineers who came up from ratings. On a Cardiff tramp (Idwal Williams's mv Glynafon) one of the engineers had a very colourful background. He was an Estonian and had been a deck officer in the Soviet Navy during WW2. At the end of the war he and others hi-jacked their naval vessel and escaped west to Sweden. He eventually became an AB on British ships and later changed departments to engineroom, becoming a Donkeyman. From that position he went on to become an Engineer Officer, but due to a lack of English unable to become certificted.
I also sailed with several engineers who through some shipping companies encouragement and study leave, also went on to becoming certificated Engineer Officers from being ratings.

Jim


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## Engineers descendant

Thank you all for the responses. I should have explained more in the first post that the reason for my question is because my great-great grandfather (a Merchant Navy seaman) is listed as a "Labourer" on his 1880 marriage certificate, a "Stoker" on a his wife's 1892 death certificate, but was named a "Chief Engineer" on his own death certificate in 1920. I am trying to piece together some sort of understanding of his career for family history records.


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## johnmac

Ron Stringer said:


> Sailed on a steam turbine ship in 1962/63 with a junior who had just served his time in a Dundee jute mill. Don't know how big the machines were in there but I doubt that they were of the dimensions that you quote. This suggests tha there must have been some alternative route to becoming an engineer.


I sailed with one new junior engr. who was a motor mechanic. He had to serve extra sea time before he could go for 2/E cert..


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## Jocko

E.Martin said:


> If I remember right if a Fireman or Stoker was doing the job as a Engineer and has no qualificatons he was known as a Shovel Engineer.


What did those so called Shovel Engineers do in the event of a breakdown at sea????? Ring for the AA perhaps????(Wave)


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## Duncan112

Engineers descendant said:


> Thank you all for the responses. I should have explained more in the first post that the reason for my question is because my great-great grandfather (a Merchant Navy seaman) is listed as a "Labourer" on his 1880 marriage certificate, a "Stoker" on a his wife's 1892 death certificate, but was named a "Chief Engineer" on his own death certificate in 1920. I am trying to piece together some sort of understanding of his career for family history records.


I seem to recall that, prior to 1981 there was no requirement for an Officer or Master employed on a vessel trading exclusively between UK ports to have a certificate of competency (I assume that the R/O was excluded from this dispensation) Is it possible that your ancestor had worked his way up on a small coaster or tug (Clyde puffer maybe).

Have you any information as to the companies he was employed in? Or any record of his sea service and dates.


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## bill mc guire

can only speak for my time early 70s you had to have served your apprenticeship in heavy engineering then had a pre-sea sea grading with the board of trade before shipping companies would even consider you for employment as an engineer


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## Russken40

*Pre-Sea Interview Grading Report*



bill mc guire said:


> can only speak for my time early 70s you had to have served your apprenticeship in heavy engineering then had a pre-sea sea grading with the board of trade before shipping companies would even consider you for employment as an engineer


Same as the 60's Bill. Grading depended upon experience prior to joining the MN. See attached (the back of my grading cert 1961)


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## chadburn

Duncan112 said:


> I seem to recall that, prior to 1981 there was no requirement for an Officer or Master employed on a vessel trading exclusively between UK ports to have a certificate of competency (I assume that the R/O was excluded from this dispensation) Is it possible that your ancestor had worked his way up on a small coaster or tug (Clyde puffer maybe).
> 
> Have you any information as to the companies he was employed in? Or any record of his sea service and dates.


On reflection you are right Duncan in these cir***stances, I did come across a chap who had been in the RN as a Leading Stoker and was the only one down below on a civilian former TID. Not sure how far he was allowed to go when it came to Main engine stripping.


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## R58484956

The same applied in the early 50's as well


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## MWD

I remember obtaining my Grading in Southampton, no difficulity having served an apprentiship in a coal fired 200 MW power station.

Did notice however that as a junior on my first steamer other juniors were unfamiliar with working on live and hot plant, having come from shipbuilders and dockyards.

MWD.

most


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## chadburn

That's unusual MWD as most shipyard apprentice's do Trial's after a vessel has been o/hauled or on a newbuild.


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## Donnie More

*Stoker to Engineer*

three lads i have sailed with on uk ships over the years , 
1981, donkeyman deepsea eventually went to chief engineer on coasters by 1995 ,

1988 , hotel cook eventually to ships cook , then to DPO by 2005.

and only last year 2011 , sailed with second engineer who started out as ships baker / cook .
i knew and met two of these gentlemen before and after , just goes to show that a little interest and study can overcome many obstacles .


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## surfaceblow

The present day requirements for going from an engine rating to Chief Engineer according to MCA web site is as follows: 

General Information

The information in this guide has been extracted from Marine Guidance Note (MGN) 93 - and is a sea time guide only. Please ensure that you are familiar with the training and certification guidance literature before making an application to the MCA for a Notice of Eligibility (NOE) or Certificate of Competency (CoC).


Sea Service Definitions

Qualifying sea service means service under crew agreement as engineer officer on regular watch, on Unmanned Machinery Spaces (UMS) duties, or on day work and is calculated from day of joining to, and including, the day of signing off the vessel. The period of sea service required for certification varies with the level of certification.

Day Work

Engineering work carried out at sea, other than that performed on regular watch, will be counted in full towards the overall minimum sea service required. However, this time cannot be counted towards watchkeeping service.

Watchkeeping/UMS duties

Where watchkeeping service is required, this means that the cadet/rating carried out watchkeeping duties (under supervision of a certified engineer officer) for not less than 8 hours out of every 24 hour period. Where the vessel is operating a UMS system, it is expected that a 24 hr duty period is carried out in every 72 hour period i.e. "one in three" duty rota.

Where watchkeeping service is required for subsequent certificates, this means that an officer is in full charge of an engineering watch for not less than 8 hours out of every 24 hour period. Where the vessel is operating a UMS system, it is expected that a 24 hr duty period is carried out in every 72 hour period i.e. "one in three" duty rota.

Acceptable proof of sea service

All sea service testimonials, discharge books and certificates of discharge must be signed by the Chief Engineer or Engineering Superintendant.

For a sea service testimonial pro forma please see MGN 91 Appendix 1D
For a pro forma of a certificate of discharge please see MGN 123 Appendix 1


Marine Engine Operator Licence (MEOL)

24 months sea service in ships of not less than 200kW registered power and training in basic engineering skills to the satisfaction of the MCA; or

2 years shore employment with an engineering background acceptable to the MCA and 3 months qualifying sea service as a trainee marine operator on ships of not less than 200kW registered power; or

an approved structured training programme.


Senior Marine Engine Operator Licence (SMEOL)

6 months qualifying sea service as a Marine Engine Operator on ships not less than 200kW registered power, whilst holding an MEOL.


Engineer Officer of the Watch – Steam or Motor

6 months (4 months of which are on watchkeeping or UMS duties on motor/steam ships) on ships of 350kW or more whilst on main propulsion machinery or UMS duties.

Engineer Officer of the Watch – Combined

8 months (4 months on steam and 4 months on motor watchkeeping or UMS duties) on ships of 350kW or more whilst on main propulsion machinery or UMS duties.

Second Engineer Unlimited – Steam or Motor

18 months (9 months of which are in charge of a watch or UMS duties on motor/steam ships) on ships of 750kW or more and while qualified as III/I Engineer Officer of the Watch.

Second Engineer - Combined 

18 months (9 months steam and 9 months motor of which are in charge of a watch or UMS duties) on ships of 750kW or more and while qualified as III/I Engineer Officer of the Watch. 

Chief Engineer Unlimited – Steam or Motor

18 months on ships of 1500kW or more(9 months of which are in charge of a watch or UMS duties on motor/steam ships of 3000kW or more) and while qualified as III/2 Second Engineer.

Chief Engineer – Combined

18 months (9 months steam and 9 months motor of which are in charge of watch or UMS duties on ships of 3000kW or more) and while qualified as III/2 Second Engineer.

Limited Certificates of competency

Second Engineer <3,000kW Unlimited, <6,000kW near coastal
Chief Engineer <3,000kW Unlimited*

Joe


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## Archie NS

I joined the M.N. September 1954, having served a six year apprenticeship with a firm that specialiced in maintenance of the cotton mills in Lancashire, at that time a lot of the mills were powered by Scotch boilers and Triple or Quadruple steam engines, through a line shaft system.
Anyhow I failed my 11+ and went to technical collage, which served me in good stead, I went stright into the National Certificate night school progam
by the time I'd finished I was exempt from part 'A' of the Seconds ticket and also exempt from National Service till I was 21, I failed the medical and got on the next train to Liverpool. I had to have papers stating that I had served my time, papers from National Cert. and papers stating that I had worked in heavy engineering
However I wrote to a few companies and the first to reply was British Tanker Corp or B.T.C. they sent out a list of what was expected to be worn on the ship , my mum and I traveled out to Liverpool to buy the requested kit, at Silver Bros, the salesman must have been rubbing his hands, another yokal from the sticks!!!!!!
But anyway I survived, and after fourty odd years deap sea, and on the lakes
I can now look back and shake my head. 
The once proud British Merchant Navy is no more!!!!


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## david freeman

Quite an emotional subject? Deck personnel could go through the hawse pipe from the ranks to being an officer. In the engine side it was the tickets that are the difficult bit, and sea time is set against previous experience, and the abilility not to make do and mend but to get the ship to a safe port without assistance, and for this other than serving for a lifetime on the same vessel, one needs a small bit of nouse and academic learning. In modern day parlance I suspect with mixed crews and foriegn flag companies, things have become diluted.
I once experience a high pressure steam ship with main range steam pipes with (Many) welded patches (The pipes of high mollibdunum chrome content). This made me freeze when talking of 1000 degrees f and 650psi. I shudder to think of the boiler water treatment and condition? I had never seen such arrangement abd never came across this arrangement again. The ship was in class? and registered!
So what is an engineer is it the man on the spot or the superintendent,(Or the class surveyor) and the engine crew the technicians? Many an argument to be had!!!


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## john g

As a ******** Line company apprentice in the late 60,s I was informed by a first trip junior engineer he was in a position to give me orders and in effect was my mentor.............turned out he had just finished his time with Manchester Corporation swimmng baths and had "some knowledge " of boilers, I don't know what happened to him as I went over to motor ships. Looking back there were no watchkeeping certificates just you the tailwaller and a very big engine. How did we ever get by !!..............


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## oilkinger

I was a stoker in the Royal Australian Navy. Stokers were not qualified tradesmen. Engineers had to have a degree in engineering. They normally entered the navy complete with degree. Stokers could progress to articifer / mechanician, which gave a trade qualification, and from there do an engineering degree to qualify as an engineer.
In my time engineering articifers & mechanicians were never referred to as "stokers."

FME


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## John Williams 56-65

john g said:


> As a ******** Line company apprentice in the late 60,s I was informed by a first trip junior engineer he was in a position to give me orders and in effect was my mentor.............turned out he had just finished his time with Manchester Corporation swimmng baths and had "some knowledge " of boilers, I don't know what happened to him as I went over to motor ships. Looking back there were no watchkeeping certificates just you the tailwaller and a very big engine. How did we ever get by !!..............


I once came across a lad who admitted to having served his time in a Singer Sewing Machine factory. I don`t know what heavy engineering experience he had but he reconned the only thing he needed to know was to name the stages of the four stroke engine. Namely ; Induction, Compression, Expansion, Exhaust.
Otherwise known to us mere mortals as Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow.
He had never seen a ship close to before but still boarded for his first trip to sea as an Engineering Officer.(?HUH)(?HUH)(?HUH)


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## Engineers descendant

Duncan112 said:


> I seem to recall that, prior to 1981 there was no requirement for an Officer or Master employed on a vessel trading exclusively between UK ports to have a certificate of competency (I assume that the R/O was excluded from this dispensation) Is it possible that your ancestor had worked his way up on a small coaster or tug (Clyde puffer maybe).
> 
> Have you any information as to the companies he was employed in? Or any record of his sea service and dates.


George none of the do***ents state who his employer was. I searched the UK National Archives website last year for his service records but was unable to find him on them (and it was quite difficult to navigate their information system), but with the recent acquirement of his death certificate, there appears to be a 10yr discrepancy regarding his age during his service; I haven't had time to try the UK archives again with this new "age" finding yet but will soon.


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## chadburn

John, would this be about the time shortly after National Service finished? some Shipping Companies became desperate due to the amount of Crew(both Deck and Engineering) that simply walked off their vessel's without prior warning when they arrived at a home Port. For those of us who had joined the M.N. before that time promotion was quite rapid.(Pint)


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## john g

I always feilt a well maintained Sulzer was similar to a sewing machine, maybe the guy got mixed up. I'm pretty sure there are many ex apprentices/cadets who carried first trip juniors it all seemed unfair at the time as the junior engineer was on "film star wages" .....


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## andyp1

Met a lot of Junior / Fifth Engineers (Fivers) who had done a fitting and turning apprenticeship ashore and gone to sea, as you say seemed to be on film star wages to us cadets


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## John Williams 56-65

chadburn said:


> John, would this be about the time shortly after National Service finished? some Shipping Companies became desperate due to the amount of Crew(both Deck and Engineering) that simply walked off their vessel's without prior warning when they arrived at a home Port. For those of us who had joined the M.N. before that time promotion was quite rapid.(Pint)


Geordie Chief.; I don`t remember exactly when I met this lad but as NS ended in 62 and I was sailing for Bibby line at this time you could be very near the mark.(?HUH)


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## finetune

Went to sea as a junior engineer in 1969 after serving my apprenticeship in a textile machinery works. No problem getting a grading as it was classed as heavy engineering. First engine, boilers,pumps or pipework I had anything to do with,was when I joined my first ship. Apart from me motorbike.


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## alan ward

Ron Stringer said:


> Sailed on a steam turbine ship in 1962/63 with a junior who had just served his time in a Dundee jute mill. Don't know how big the machines were in there but I doubt that they were of the dimensions that you quote. This suggests tha there must have been some alternative route to becoming an engineer.


I sailed with an Australian j/e John Herman who had Part A of a Steam Seconds certificate from working on a sugar mill in Queensland


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## Stephen J. Card

Duncan112 said:


> I seem to recall that, prior to 1981 there was no requirement for an Officer or Master employed on a vessel trading exclusively between UK ports to have a certificate of competency QUOTE]
> 
> Unless the vessel was a passenger ship of some kind. The tickets for the Home Trade stated quite clearly on the front:
> 
> MATE of a Hone Trade Passenger Vessl or MASTER of a Home Trade Passenger Vessel.
> 
> While not a requirement for other vessels I would think that they did in fact carry certificated officers... and probably a lot of Foreign-Goiing tickets! Some of the HT guys will have the answer.
> 
> I never sailed Home Trade but I did sit for Mate HT... a week before Second Mate FG.... just in case!!!!


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## Stephen J. Card

I've been stoker on a liner
A trimmer on a yacht
A Greaser on a cago boat
In fact I've been the lot!.
I've now reached my ambition
you maybe think it queer
Its custom in the Highliand locks
as Puffer Engineer.

McPail,
Chief Engineer
The puffer VITAL SPARK.


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## Duncan112

Thanks Stephen, it was presented to me as a legal curiosity (I didn't know about the HT Passenger on the front of the certificate). I know some of F T Everards smaller vessels had uncertificated masters, more than one had to leave as they couldn't fulfil the eyesight requirements when the medical requirements became compulsory in 1981 as they needed to get a medical certificate to get a certificate of service.


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## chadburn

I can confirm that on a HT passenger carrying vessel they required a ticketed Chief Engineer as I was one for a few month's between FG trips, it was all to do with insurance requirement's.


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## raybroad

Regulations regarding sea going engineers in 1953 when Iwent to sea as a junior engineer. There were three grades at the time. Grade 1- you had to have served an apprenticeship with a heavy engineering or shipbuilding/repair company for 4 years (final year to be spent at sea as a junior engineer) and have obtained a national certificate in engineering. Grade 2-as before but minus the national certificate in engineering. Grade 3-have served an apprenticeship in small engineering or motorcar industry or garage mostly for 5 years unless you had a lenient surveyor engineer.If you had Grade 1 after 18 months of watchkeeping you only had to take part B of the second engineers certificate(ticket). If you had Grade2or3 after 18 months of watchkeeping you had to take parts A and B of the second engineers ticket. These rules applied to deep sea watchkeeping at this time.


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## kewl dude

My seatime:

19600513-19600913-EdmundWMudge-Coalpasser
19610429-19610624-JosephHThompson-Ordinary Seaman
19610626-19611206-LeonFalkJr-Wiper
19620402-19621206-JosephHThompson-Fireman/WaterTender
19630415-19631206-JosephHThompson-Fireman/WaterTender
19640331-19640814-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler-Vacation
19640824-19641126-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler-Hospital
19641129-19641214-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler
19650329-19650702-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler-Vacation-Married
19650809-19651222-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler
19660324-19660704-JosephHThompson-3rd A/E
19660724-19660910-JosephHThompson-3rd A/E
19661001-19661212-Missouri-3rd A/E-Baltimore-Calicut-Houston
19670126-19670210-DukeVictory-3rd A/E-Port Time
19670211-19670217-DukeVictory-2nd A/E- Port Time
19670218-19670515-DukeVictory-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-SanFrancisco
19670526-19670529-WilliamGMather-3rd A/E Vacation Relief
19670709-19670802-JAWIglehart-3rd A/E Vacation Relief
19670830-19671123-Delaware-3rd A/E-Toledo-Saigon-SanFrancisco
19680208-19680327-Pecos-3rd A/E-Yokohama-Inchon-SanFrancisco – Fly Out
19680328-19680402-Pecos-2nd A/E-Port Time
19680403-19680610-Pecos-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-Eureka
19680611-19680614-Pecos-2nd A/E-Coastwise
My only missing discharge- Cliffs Victory-3rd A/E -Vacation Relief 
19680814-19680913-Columbia-2nd A/E-Norfolk-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
19680914-19680917-Columbia-2nd A/E-Philadelphia-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
19680918-19681019-Columbia-2nd A/E-Philadelphia-Amsterdam-Norfolk
19681020-19681125-Columbia-3rd A/E-Norfolk-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
19690416-19690517-Columbia-2nd A/E-Philadelphia-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
19690518-19690618-Columbia-2nd A/E-Philadelphia-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
19690712-19690805-Middletown-3rd A/E-Vacation Relief
19690903-19691116-Albany-3rd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-WilmingtonNC
19691117-19691123-Albany-3rd A/E-Wilmington-Baltimore-Coastwise
19691124-19700206-Albany-2nd A/E-Baltimore-Saigon-SanFrancisco
19700207-19700211-Albany-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-PortChicago-Coastwise
19700211-19700415-Albany-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-SanFrancisco
19700416-19700423-Albany-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-PortHueneme-SanFrancisco-Coastwise
19700424-19700809-Albany-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-MobileAlabama
19700810-19700813-Albany-2nd A/E-Mobile-Mobile-PortTime
19710505-19710715-SeatrainMaine-1st A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-SanFrancisco
19710716-19710729-SeatrainMaine-1st A/E-SanFrancisco-SanDiego-SanFrancisco-Coastwise
19710730-19711106-SeatrainMaine-1st A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-SanFrancisco
19720626-19721011-Transerie-1st A/E-BeaumontTX-Inchon-SanPedro
I was Transerie Owners Rep for a shipyard overhaul then Shipkeeper while laid up
19730109-19730208-Transerie-1st A/E-SanPedro-GalvestonTX
19730712-19730926-USNSPecos-1st A/E-KeyWest-Various-MelvilleRI
19730927-19731231-USNSPecos-1st A/E-MelvilleRI-Various-NorfolkVA
19740101-19740219-USNSPecos-1st A/E-Norfolk-Various-YorktownVA
19740220-19740403-USNSPecos-1st A/E-Yorktown-Various-TampaFL
19740404-19740530-USNSPecos-1st A/E-Tampa-Various-JacksonvilleFL
19760127-19760514-Yellowstone-2nd A/E-MoreheadCityNC-DurbanSA

Missouri, Albany and Yellowstone were Oriental Exporters/Ogden Marine Columbia sister ships War II built 6000HP C4’s converted to general cargo or bulk. Lane Victory pictured similar to Duke Victory.

Greg Hayden


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## JohnBP

kewl dude said:


> My seatime:
> 
> 19600513-19600913-EdmundWMudge-Coalpasser
> 19610429-19610624-JosephHThompson-Ordinary Seaman
> 19610626-19611206-LeonFalkJr-Wiper
> 19620402-19621206-JosephHThompson-Fireman/WaterTender
> 19630415-19631206-JosephHThompson-Fireman/WaterTender
> 19640331-19640814-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler-Vacation
> 19640824-19641126-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler-Hospital
> 19641129-19641214-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler
> 19650329-19650702-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler-Vacation-Married
> 19650809-19651222-GeorgeMHumphrey-Oiler
> 19660324-19660704-JosephHThompson-3rd A/E
> 19660724-19660910-JosephHThompson-3rd A/E
> 19661001-19661212-Missouri-3rd A/E-Baltimore-Calicut-Houston
> 19670126-19670210-DukeVictory-3rd A/E-Port Time
> 19670211-19670217-DukeVictory-2nd A/E- Port Time
> 19670218-19670515-DukeVictory-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-SanFrancisco
> 19670526-19670529-WilliamGMather-3rd A/E Vacation Relief
> 19670709-19670802-JAWIglehart-3rd A/E Vacation Relief
> 19670830-19671123-Delaware-3rd A/E-Toledo-Saigon-SanFrancisco
> 19680208-19680327-Pecos-3rd A/E-Yokohama-Inchon-SanFrancisco – Fly Out
> 19680328-19680402-Pecos-2nd A/E-Port Time
> 19680403-19680610-Pecos-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-Eureka
> 19680611-19680614-Pecos-2nd A/E-Coastwise
> My only missing discharge- Cliffs Victory-3rd A/E -Vacation Relief
> 19680814-19680913-Columbia-2nd A/E-Norfolk-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
> 19680914-19680917-Columbia-2nd A/E-Philadelphia-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
> 19680918-19681019-Columbia-2nd A/E-Philadelphia-Amsterdam-Norfolk
> 19681020-19681125-Columbia-3rd A/E-Norfolk-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
> 19690416-19690517-Columbia-2nd A/E-Philadelphia-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
> 19690518-19690618-Columbia-2nd A/E-Philadelphia-Amsterdam-Philadelphia
> 19690712-19690805-Middletown-3rd A/E-Vacation Relief
> 19690903-19691116-Albany-3rd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-WilmingtonNC
> 19691117-19691123-Albany-3rd A/E-Wilmington-Baltimore-Coastwise
> 19691124-19700206-Albany-2nd A/E-Baltimore-Saigon-SanFrancisco
> 19700207-19700211-Albany-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-PortChicago-Coastwise
> 19700211-19700415-Albany-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-SanFrancisco
> 19700416-19700423-Albany-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-PortHueneme-SanFrancisco-Coastwise
> 19700424-19700809-Albany-2nd A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-MobileAlabama
> 19700810-19700813-Albany-2nd A/E-Mobile-Mobile-PortTime
> 19710505-19710715-SeatrainMaine-1st A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-SanFrancisco
> 19710716-19710729-SeatrainMaine-1st A/E-SanFrancisco-SanDiego-SanFrancisco-Coastwise
> 19710730-19711106-SeatrainMaine-1st A/E-SanFrancisco-Saigon-SanFrancisco
> 19720626-19721011-Transerie-1st A/E-BeaumontTX-Inchon-SanPedro
> I was Transerie Owners Rep for a shipyard overhaul then Shipkeeper while laid up
> 19730109-19730208-Transerie-1st A/E-SanPedro-GalvestonTX
> 19730712-19730926-USNSPecos-1st A/E-KeyWest-Various-MelvilleRI
> 19730927-19731231-USNSPecos-1st A/E-MelvilleRI-Various-NorfolkVA
> 19740101-19740219-USNSPecos-1st A/E-Norfolk-Various-YorktownVA
> 19740220-19740403-USNSPecos-1st A/E-Yorktown-Various-TampaFL
> 19740404-19740530-USNSPecos-1st A/E-Tampa-Various-JacksonvilleFL
> 19760127-19760514-Yellowstone-2nd A/E-MoreheadCityNC-DurbanSA
> 
> Missouri, Albany and Yellowstone were Oriental Exporters/Ogden Marine Columbia sister ships War II built 6000HP C4’s converted to general cargo or bulk. Lane Victory pictured similar to Duke Victory.
> 
> Greg Hayden


Lets not forget the 'Alternative Training Program", had to have school certs in certain subjects, then 2 years at engineering college with summers in heavy engineering, then 6 months for marine engineering endorsements, then 1.5 years as an apprentice/cadet which gave exemption for part A second and part A chief's. During the 1.5 years it was usual to go to a JE before time was up...


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## Split

Varley said:


> In Scandenavia it would be common (perhaps universal) for all to start at the most junior rank in the department.
> 
> In the Commonwealth it was more normal for deck officers to serve at sea as apprentice, latterly cadet, before elibale to become watch officer grade (in earlier times with or without certificate which now compulsory).
> 
> Engineers could serve an apprenticeship in a suitable industry ashore or afloat before eligable to serve as watch officer (again in earlier times certification for watch officer was not necessary as it now is).
> 
> I sailed with very few officerrs who had started "in the forecastle head" or in the stokehold (what the RN would call" hauled through the hawse pipe" or it was in my father's day).
> 
> David V


I had an uncle who started as a stoker before WWI and was on the China gunboats. Facing punishment for cheeking an officer, he was offered foregiveness (is that the right word LOL! ) if he volunteered for submarines. He came out of the war an artificer, married and emigrated to Canada, worked in a paper mill and enlisted in WWII as an officer, served in corvettes and finished as Lieutenant Commander.


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## engineer64

I joined the RN as a Stoker in 49 & retired from RN in 72 as a Lieutenant. Then I joined Mobil Tankers as 2nd. Engineer.


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## raybroad

*stoker to engineer*



engineer64 said:


> I joined the RN as a Stoker in 49 & retired from RN in 72 as a Lieutenant. Then I joined Mobil Tankers as 2nd. Engineer.


engineer64, Many of the time served people had never even seen or been aboard a ship and I think that the regulations that I previousely mentioned were intended for these people at that time. A stoker in the R.N. was well trained in engine room procedures. I have sailed with many ex-stokers who became second or chief engineers in the M.N. and they were excellent engineers. Apart from one who was chief engineer on a coaster that I was second on. He had been a Lieutenant Commander (E) in the R.N. I used to have no end of complaints from the third engineer when he took over the 8-12 watch. Apart from this every one else from the R.N. were great whatever their ranks.I remember one 3/engineer (ex-stoker) who had been a survivor from the H.M.S. Penelope.He was a great friend and from Hull I called him Jubby his real surname was Jubb. Best Wishes raybroad


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## mannimal

Back on the old WW1 trawlers the abbreviation 'ENG' was for an 'Engineman'. I've a couple of medals where the recipient rose from 'stoker' to 'engineman' over the course of the war. Also a 'trimmer' rose to 'stoker'. There are also 'ERA' to 'CERA' promotions.


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## Robert Bush

*Real Engineers*

My father served 6 years apprentice ship as a fitter and turner plus 2 years as a journeyman with a maker of steam traction engines. He took these engines overseas where they worked in pairs pulling steel plows to and fro across a field with wire ropes. He could splice a wire before he went to sea in 1914.

He joined the RN as an ERA , Engine Room Artificer, serving in the Battle of Jutland on HMS Marlborough.

In 1918 he joined the P & 0 as an Engineer leaving the sea in 1928 the year I was born.

When he heard that the Engine Drivers on US locomotives were called "Engineers" he was disgusted.


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## mjj160

*Ratings to Officer*

There was also another way to become an engineer if you were sailing as an engine room crew member, in that there was a course run at Leith Nautical College. This course was a two year course for suitable candidates and comprised of the first year mostly working in the workshops to gain experience with lathes, milling machines, drill presses, shapers etc, and at the end of the first year, City and Guilds exams were taken.
The second year was virtually all classroom studies to which at the end of the year the seconds part A was taken, if passed then your sponsor company could then employ you as Junior engineer.

I myself attended this course from 1976-1978 to which I found it excellent, I have just retired a couple of months ago after a sea career of 43 years the last 25 being in the rank of Chief Engineer.


Sadly this method of promotion is no longer available since Leith college is closed for nautical studies

Mike Jennings
ex Panocean Anco
Swire Pacific Ship Management


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## Graham Wallace

engineer64 said:


> I joined the RN as a Stoker in 49 & retired from RN in 72 as a Lieutenant. Then I joined Mobil Tankers as 2nd. Engineer.


This should bring back a few memories then. 

On the frontspiece is says, Established January 1901, revised October 1927. I cannot find out which year this copy was printed. My particular copy has addendums taped to the respective pages with transparent tape. At the rear of the book are about 30 pages of graph paper then a further 30 of lined paper...not a mark on them!

It belonged to the father of one of my neighbours. Some wonderful cross sectional drawings one of which I presume to be a Weir single cylinder steam reciprocating pump, called here a 'Pumping Engine'.
Pretty identical to the Thom Lamont's boiler feed pumps I spent some time assembling in Paisley summer of 1956 

I have a lot of trouble sizing my pics to suit Shipsnostalgia sizes, sorry this is the best I can do for the present

Graham


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## engineer64

Bit before my time Graham. To resize pictures/photos I use a program called PIXresizer, it's easy to use & I think it's free.


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## Graham Wallace

engineer64 said:


> Bit before my time Graham. To resize pictures/photos I use a program called PIXresizer, it's easy to use & I think it's free.


Yup, I managed to work that resizing last night using my computer microsoft programmes already installed.
Even thought the booklet mentions revisions 1927 I think this copy was late WWII issue (RCN)

Graham


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## mwebster56

bill mc guire said:


> can only speak for my time early 70s you had to have served your apprenticeship in heavy engineering then had a pre-sea sea grading with the board of trade before shipping companies would even consider you for employment as an engineer


You are correct about the grading but incorrect on the heavy engineering. I started my sea life with Shaw Savill in the early 70's after attending an interview at the liverpool BSF. I got a classification of 1C. The 1 was for educational standard and the C was for unsuitable fitting. A lot of the junior engineers I sailed with didnt have a classification. They were unclassified and they (and me) had to spend extra time at sea before being able to go for the 2/E certificate. I sailed with a guy once who had served his time maintaining industrial sewing machines in a clothing factory in Glasgow and a 2nd electrician who had never worked on electrical gear with moving parts, just house and industrial wiring for lighting and sockets.


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## oldseamerchant

mwebster56 said:


> You are correct about the grading but incorrect on the heavy engineering. I started my sea life with Shaw Savill in the early 70's after attending an interview at the liverpool BSF. I got a classification of 1C. The 1 was for educational standard and the C was for unsuitable fitting. A lot of the junior engineers I sailed with didnt have a classification. They were unclassified and they (and me) had to spend extra time at sea before being able to go for the 2/E certificate. I sailed with a guy once who had served his time maintaining industrial sewing machines in a clothing factory in Glasgow and a 2nd electrician who had never worked on electrical gear with moving parts, just house and industrial wiring for lighting and sockets.


Before your time but I sailed with quite a few Second Engineers who were dispensated.One I recall, and I understand it was not rare, used to rely heavily on others to write up his log.


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## chadburn

As far as I am aware it was also not unusual to have dispensated Second Mate's also, it was all to do with shortage's due to WW2 and again with the end of National Service until the Sandwich Cadet's/ Apprentice's were qualified, however, how the "Dispensated" 2nd Mate's filled the Log in was nothing to do with me as long as the vessel sailed from Pilot Station A to Pilot Station B without hitting anything is all that I was concerned about.


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## R58484956

On the QE(1) I had an ex CPO (Engine) he was the most useless person I have ever come across. He seemed incapable of carrying out instructions. In the merchant navy you had to think for yourselves, we had no book to follow.


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## mwebster56

oldseamerchant said:


> Before your time but I sailed with quite a few Second Engineers who were dispensated.One I recall, and I understand it was not rare, used to rely heavily on others to write up his log.


I worked for Bank Line for 4 years and only sailed with one certificated 2nd. All the rest were dispensated. Most of them were pretty knowledgeable but some of them had been dispensation 2nds for years, if not decades.


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## Brian Smither

I was in the Caribbean, St Maarten, Netherlands Antilles, in 1991 when HMS Amberscade paid a visit. All the Brits were rounded up to attend a cocktail party onboard. There I met the Engineer Officer (Lieutenant) a Scot (don't remember his name now) who came up through the ranks from ERA. He told me that after I had left the RN there was a shortage of Engineers so many ERA's and Chief Stokers were put through courses and many were Commissioned.

Needless to say the party was greatly enjoyed by all, I went onboard next day and remember they had 'Flowers' bitter in the wardroom, don't remember much after that! I did get a Crest though that graces my lounge wall with many others.


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## engineer64

If you were ex RN & in the engineering branch & a Commander or Lieut. Cdr. you were awarded a Chief Engineers Certificate. I was an ex lower deck rating & commissioned after 13 years as a rating. On leaving the RN I was given a Certificate of Service as Second Class Engineer, eventually I sat for Chief, passed all Part 1 & failed electrics in Part 2. I was going to resit the exam when I had to retire because of hearing loss. Some ex RN Engine Room Artificers joined the MN as 3rd Engineers.


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## Fred Field

Oh the tortuous path of the Engineers Certification.
I was Graded 1(B), due to a lack of heavy engineering experience and had to serve 13.5 months compensatory sea service as a penalty. After which I was Exempted from Part A of 'my Seconds' and given 3 months remission for the time required for Part B.
I was then Exempted from Part A 'Chiefs', passed the Part B and later also obtained the Steam endorsement.


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## ben27

good morning engineer64 yesterday,23jan,2013,01:01re:stoker to engineer.i wish to congratulate you on making the rank of lieutenant in the R,N.that is an accomplishment.all the best,ben27


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## dannic

Regular Chief Engineer on current Queen Elizabeth started career as mechanic.

Dan.


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## ben27

good day dannic.today 04:18.on the subject of rising up the ranks.i watched a doko of the then royal yacht!i it showed the commander in charge of all activitisfor the wellbeing of her majesty and her entourage.he rose from galley boy.,now that can only happen in a democracy,have a good one ben27


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