# Another Great Grandad



## wendymj

Despite having an almost biblical recall of just who begat whom and which side of the blanket for most of the families in our village my mother is remarkably sketchy on our own. I suspect this is because they were called things like mam, dad, nana etc instead of Mrs Jones-the-shop and so forth. Doing a little research on WWI soldiers from the village I came across a name I recognised from somewhere on the absent voters list.
Daniel Harding, Able Seaman Z/412, Mess 16, Pembroke.
I mentioned this to my mother, thinking I'd found a great-uncle. "Oh no" she says "That's grampa (her grandfather). He was on a ship that sank and was missing, presumed dead, for six months but he'd been picked up by another boat and turned up again" - I'm not exactly sure how likely that is to have happened. 
Today I downloaded a pdf of his record from the National Archives and I'm a little confused. There aren't any ships on there, only shore places.
Victory 1 List RNVR 15 No. 849 AB 6/6/15 - 15/9/15
Yarmouth List RNVR 15 No. 13 AB(1) 16/9/15 - 6/4/18
Pembroke List RNVR 14 No. 10693 AB 7/4/18 -16/4/19 Invalided.
Does this mean he didn't actually go to sea? (he did apparently get the Star, Victory and War medals) If it's likely that the family story could be true how would I find which ship(s) he was on? 
Thanks for reading. I'd be most grateful for any pointers.


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## Sister Eleff

Welcome to the site Wendy. Good luck with your quest. I am sure someone on the site will be more than willing to help you.


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## Pompeyfan

On behalf of the 'SN Moderating Team', welcome aboard Wendy.

Hopefully, someone will be able to help with the information you are seeking. Good luck (Thumb)


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## chadburn

We have some experts on Site who really know the business of locating past histories, they may be able to help you in your quest. But in answer to your question did he go to sea if all it shows on his record is Shore Bases, the answer is, Yes. In particular his Yarmouth list seems to indicate Armed Trawlers/ Minesweeping.


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## retfordmackem

wendymj said:


> Despite having an almost biblical recall of just who begat whom and which side of the blanket for most of the families in our village my mother is remarkably sketchy on our own. I suspect this is because they were called things like mam, dad, nana etc instead of Mrs Jones-the-shop and so forth. Doing a little research on WWI soldiers from the village I came across a name I recognised from somewhere on the absent voters list.
> Daniel Harding, Able Seaman Z/412, Mess 16, Pembroke.
> I mentioned this to my mother, thinking I'd found a great-uncle. "Oh no" she says "That's grampa (her grandfather). He was on a ship that sank and was missing, presumed dead, for six months but he'd been picked up by another boat and turned up again" - I'm not exactly sure how likely that is to have happened.
> Today I downloaded a pdf of his record from the National Archives and I'm a little confused. There aren't any ships on there, only shore places.
> Victory 1 List RNVR 15 No. 849 AB 6/6/15 - 15/9/15
> Yarmouth List RNVR 15 No. 13 AB(1) 16/9/15 - 6/4/18
> Pembroke List RNVR 14 No. 10693 AB 7/4/18 -16/4/19 Invalided.
> Does this mean he didn't actually go to sea? (he did apparently get the Star, Victory and War medals) If it's likely that the family story could be true how would I find which ship(s) he was on?
> Thanks for reading. I'd be most grateful for any pointers.


A lot of RN sailors never went to see .All the shore postings were named as HMS etc ,etc . My brother was in the navy for 2 years in the 60s and never saw the sea. When he joined up thy asked if he could swim ,of course at age 17 his reply was "why? have you no ships ". You have to larf don't you ?


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## wendymj

Thanks for the response so far. I've tried to attach a copy of the record, but I'm not sure if it worked.


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## Hugh MacLean

Hello Wendy and welcome,

At the beginning of WW1 the RN was well supplied with men so much so that there was a surplus. What happened to those men? Well, they were formed into the Royal Naval Division (RND). Winston Churchill,then First Lord of the Admiralty, decided to form two Naval Brigades to fight on land alongside the already established Marine Brigade. Those sailors and marines, most were reservists such as RNR, RNVR, fought on land as infantry but had Naval ranks and customs. The RND fought all through the war distinguishing themselves on every front and took heavy casualties along the way. In 1916 the RND was transferred from Admiralty control to Army control and renamed the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division.

Daniel Harding was in the Royal Naval Division. You should obtain his service record held in *ADM 339/1/16182*

The record can be downloaded for £3.30 These records are usually typed so are easy to read. They will tell you the extent of his service in the RND. He may have remained with the RND or could have gone to sea service but you should look not only at the RNVR record that you have but cross refer to his RND record.
Thr RND is one of my interests so feel free to ask any further questions if you wish.

His medal file is attached. 

Regards
Hugh


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## wendymj

Thank you for replying Hugh, I did download the record, but it's handwritten, not typed, The places listed are those I typed in my OP, I have tried to attach a copy of the record itself in my second post, but I'm not sure if you will be able to access it.

Sorry, Hugh, just re-read your post and realised that you are pointing me to a different record. Unfortunately I'm getting a run time error trying to access that one. Is that at the Archives as well?


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## Hugh MacLean

Wendy the only record I can see that you have attached is ADM 337/85/125 which is his RNVR enrollment record. I cannot see any attachment for ADM 339/1/16182 which should be his RND card.
Regards
Hugh


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## Hugh MacLean

wendymj said:


> Sorry, Hugh, just re-read your post and realised that you are pointing me to a different record. Unfortunately I'm getting a run time error trying to access that one. Is that at the Archives as well?


Yes, Wendy or you could download it from Find My Past if you have a subscription. The link looks ok to me.


Regards
Hugh


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## wendymj

I seem to have over stretched the Chromebook, clearing the cache let me access the record and I now have this (attached) Which at least gives me my Great Grandma's name  (She had auburn hair but noone living could agree what her name was) 
Would you be kind enough help me understand what, if anything else it gives me? Thanks again.
W


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## chadburn

retfordmackem said:


> A lot of RN sailors never went to see .All the shore postings were named as HMS etc ,etc . My brother was in the navy for 2 years in the 60s and never saw the sea. When he joined up thy asked if he could swim ,of course at age 17 his reply was "why? have you no ships ". You have to larf don't you ?


Sounds like National Service @ 2 years, there is no doubt that when it was announced that NS was to end there was a feeling that they did not know what to do with those waiting to demob, you were always 'Pressed' to sign on for longer and those that did were Drafted to ships.
The exception to the above was the 'Virgin Soldiers' who found their NS extended to fight in Malaya.


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## Hugh MacLean

Having looked at both records it would appear that he initially came into the RND but was drafted to sea service on HMS YARMOUTH. The RNVR file would suggest 1915 - 1918. He probably took part in the Battle of Jutland.
Regards
Hugh


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## wendymj

Thank you Hugh, I'd wrongly assumed that Yarmouth was on land. There's no clue though as to why Great Grandma would have got a "missing, presumed" telegram though? This has been a strange week, I'd always thought all the men in the family (except my dad who did NS at the very end of it's time) had been miners rather than entering the services. This was probably due to being over specific with the question "Was anyone in the family in the army?" If I hadn't turned up that absent voters listing I'd never have got this far with Daniel.

Now I come to think about it though I remember my Nana had some small Ivory(?) figures in her glass cabinet that she told me her dad (Daniel) had given her and they came from China. She died when I was about 10 and the figures disappeared. When I mentioned them to my mother she couldn't remember them and said her grandad never went to China. He may not have, but I see the ship did... I wonder if he got them from another one of the crew, or if I did dream them.


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## Hugh MacLean

Hi Wendy,
Both records confirm that he was a miner prior to his joining the RND in 1915. HMS YARMOUTH was not on the China Station when he was aboard 1915-1918. As far as I can see she was on station in China only at the outbreak of war 1914.

Family lore is always a difficult one Wendy. 
Regards
Hugh


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## Mickdunn

Hi Wendy,Hugh. 
Just reading your posts very interesting,hope you can keep going in your search can't wait to find out the ending good or bad.
Regards DUNNY.


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## wendymj

Hugh MacLean said:


> Family lore is always a difficult one Wendy.
> Regards
> Hugh


It certainly is Hugh! May I ask, there is a note on the first record about him being over 37 in 1918, is this significant in any way? because he MAY have been older. I had a bit of trouble finding him on the 1911 census using 1881 as year of birth, when I finally found him the year on birth is given as 1979 which would have made him @ 36 when he joined the RNVR in 1915.

Dunny, Daniel did come home to his wife and the home listed on the absent voters - a different one to that on his record card. He enjoyed gardening and apparently had a lovely result. They both, eventually, died in that house. Ggrandma Gwen keeping the habit of smoking a little clay pipe right up until her death. Family lore says she took up the pipe on receiving the "missing, presumed.." telegram about Ggdad Daniel (wish we could know more about that)The marriage was a productive one - there are 6 children listed on the 1911 census and there were at least 2 more who survived long enough for my mother to remember then and I remember visiting one or two of them when v small.

I'm left wondering a few things, why would a man of that age (which ever it was), with that many children, who was already in a necessary occupation end up in the Navy? Why did the family up sticks and move after he joined up? Was she one of the wives pressured to move while their men were away? Could he have been missing at all or is that a mis-remember? 

Thanks for all the help and support. My mother was quire surprised and introduced a new character to our story "Now you'll have to see if you can find Great Uncle Jeremiah - he got off with killing a man with a hatchet" ! (Her Guncle natch she can't be sure if it was Daniel's or Gwen's uncle - I think I'll leave that one for a while)


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## Hugh MacLean

Hi Wendy,
Not sure if there is any significance to his age it must have been at the upper limit for service.
I have been looking at your questions and also looking over the records again. I don't suppose you know when he was supposed to be missing? I note the bottom right hand stamp on his RNVR record "KC No 8636 issued". and the fact that he was invalided out of the service. KC = King's Certificate which I think was issued with the Silver War Badge for being discharged wounded or invalided or otherwise unable to continue to serve as a consequence of active service. Will have another dig around during the weekend.
Regards
Hugh


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## wendymj

Thank you again Hugh, I'm sorry I haven't a clue as to when he was supposed to have gone missing. I found a story about a man who did survive the loss of the ship he was on at at Jutland though (and almost got "done" for being AWOL) http://cymru1914.org/en/view/newspaper/4115411/6/ART195/jutland


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