# 'Driving Licenses' For Shipping?



## Twocky61 (Aug 14, 2014)

When you drive a car you are required to hold a current driving license

When you pilot an aeroplane you at the very least are required to hold a current PPL license

So why is it that to pilot a boat you are allowed to go out to sea without any license or experience at all?

We've all seen the idiots buying, say, a fishing boat or even a boat the likes of a Sunseeker and happily going out to sea in it without any experience or knowledge to pilot a boat safely and staying out of shipping lanes

I am sure they are a pain to all the professional pilots/captains who have to avoid them, not to mention the RNLI & Coastguard who have to rescue them. If it is seen they have been intentionally reckless, I believe they should confiscate the boat at the very least

Nick


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

There is the RYA Day Skipper courses, both motor and sail. 

Maybe it would be a good idea to make it mandatory to have a similar qualification before going on the water in charge of a boat. 
I don't think that Sunseeker et al would even give you the keys if you could not show full competence, so that part is probably self regulating at the moment. 

Currently RYA expect the student to have some experience before taking the course, which would include time spent 'unqualified' and in charge. So that part would have to change to control under supervision, the same as cars and aircraft. 

For some reason it is one of those things that people believe to be their inalienable right - to sail one's own boat without let or hindrance - or even skill. 

IF such a proposal was accepted, and it has been proposed many times in the past, what size vessel would be the criteria? Small water-craft can include an inflatable canoe or one of those waterjet backpacks.


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

Here in the states there is a small boat exam for boaters, all but 8 of the states have this requirement, also the coastguard checks all boats for life saving equipment such as life belts,small air horn and a fire extinguisher.


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

In Queensland State Au all craft of 12 Foot length and over must carry a bold registration number on each side of the hull and the owner /driver must pass an examination on the common sense rules of seamanship. 
In New Zealand there is no test or registration but a sloppy law relative to life jackets is in place.

Bob


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## Davie M (Apr 17, 2009)

It is interesting that here in the U.K. The RYA has on a number of occasions defended the right to take a boat to sea without any previous experience. They however offer various courses covering both theory and practical on boat handling, none of which are mandatory. However if you take a boat into inland waters in Europe you are required by EU law to hold an International Certificate for operating a pleasure craft (CEVNI) this is a two part test again theory and practical boat handling and is issued by the RYA. It is also mandatory when inland in Europe to carry various charts and almanacs covering the areas involved. Watching some of the boat handling that goes on and what people use to navigate around the UK can leave a lot to be desired, fortunately they are the exception.
The CEVNI covers both sail and power craft.


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## holland25 (Nov 21, 2007)

Here in Victoria you have to pass an exam to obtain a boat operators licensed.There is an additional exam for a jet ski.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Grat post Twocky61

I have been saying for years that it should be mandatory to have a licence before taking a boat of any size to sea in this country. My reasons for saying so was that every year, I dealt with deaths caused by people who had no idea what they were doing. It was certainly not an exception as my own records proved. Such needless seaside accidents were happening around the country, not just the Solent area.

Yes, courses are available, and responsible people take them. But those who do not put themselves and others at risk as well as those rescuing them.


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## ChasH (May 23, 2014)

*boat license*

hi Nick,
where would you reckon seamen come into that category, although me personally, hold a British, American, and South African, lifeboat ticket, plus a boatmans license, but you did have some stewards and firemen with boat tickets would you think that would be good enough or should the D.T.I enforce some sort of other test, as i assume it, now you can go any where in the world in a private craft with no knowledge at all of the rules of the sea, i agree with you there should be some sort of test at least for inside of the limits how you would enforce a private vessel out side the limits i think would be difficult, chas


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## Biggles Wader (Jul 18, 2013)

As a general principle Im against legislation or regulation unless it can be demonstrated that there is a significant need for it.In this case I think we should look at how we in the UK compare to other countries in terms of marine small boat safety and whether their regulations make them significantly safer than us.If there turns out to be a problem then fix it.


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## Duncan112 (Dec 28, 2006)

Biggles Wader said:


> As a general principle Im against legislation or regulation unless it can be demonstrated that there is a significant need for it.In this case I think we should look at how we in the UK compare to other countries in terms of marine small boat safety and whether their regulations make them significantly safer than us.If there turns out to be a problem then fix it.


My view entirely, unfortunately our representatives in Halitosis Hall and Strasbourg feel honour bound to increase the burdon on ourselves to justify their existence.


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Biggles Wader said:


> As a general principle Im against legislation or regulation unless it can be demonstrated that there is a significant need for it.In this case I think we should look at how we in the UK compare to other countries in terms of marine small boat safety and whether their regulations make them significantly safer than us.If there turns out to be a problem then fix it.


I've spent many years on ships running in/out of Southampton Water and also in some other yachting hotspots like the Sound of Mull and my view is that regulation, certification and enforcement of small craft can't come soon enough. 
This is especially important considering that year on year these areas become busier with leisure users.
It quite simply is only a matter of time before a large number of people are killed through their own stupidity and ignorance and indeed it's small wonder that doesn't already happen on a regular basis.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I think the route for this should be compulsory insurance. If the looney element (I daren't alienate colleagues by including all yachties in this) had to pay up for the diverting of merchant ships to their sinking unsuitables and/or for the littoral rescue services then insurers would be keener on requiring certification.


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## Biggles Wader (Jul 18, 2013)

Varley said:


> I think the route for this should be compulsory insurance. If the looney element (I daren't alienate colleagues by including all yachties in this) had to pay up for the diverting of merchant ships to their sinking unsuitables and/or for the littoral rescue services then insurers would be keener on requiring certification.


Thats not a bad idea as it would introduce some intelectual structure to the issue.Insurance companies look at real risk rather than what we all believe and base their decisions on that.
Anecdotally,for thats all we have,it seems that most of the reported incidents we read about concern professional mariners or "serious" yachties who presumably have qualifications.Im thinking of the race boat that sank in the atlantic and the one that collided with the ship in the Solent,both highly qualified skippers and one a RN officer.Speaking to an RNLI crew Im told most of what they do involves technical failures or "landies" getting in trouble on or near the beach and compulsory qualifications wont do much for either.
Its a lot more complex than it first appears and Im not convinced that those places that are highly regulated are at all safer than the UK.


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Biggles Wader said:


> Thats not a bad idea as it would introduce some intelectual structure to the issue.Insurance companies look at real risk rather than what we all believe and base their decisions on that.
> Anecdotally,for thats all we have,it seems that most of the reported incidents we read about concern professional mariners or "serious" yachties who presumably have qualifications.Im thinking of the race boat that sank in the atlantic and the one that collided with the ship in the Solent,both highly qualified skippers and one a RN officer.Speaking to an RNLI crew Im told most of what they do involves technical failures or "landies" getting in trouble on or near the beach and compulsory qualifications wont do much for either.
> Its a lot more complex than it first appears and Im not convinced that those places that are highly regulated are at all safer than the UK.


What you don't hear about is the huge number of "near misses" which occur year on year.
If you have a licensing system and somebody does something stupid then you can take it (and their toys) away from them, if they do something more serious you can prosecute them.
The same logic behind the vehicle licensing system should apply to boats.


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## Twocky61 (Aug 14, 2014)

James_C said:


> What you don't hear about is the huge number of "near misses" which occur year on year.
> If you have a licensing system and somebody does something stupid then you can take it (and their toys) away from them, if they do something more serious you can prosecute them.
> The same logic behind the vehicle licensing system should apply to boats.



My sentiments exactly James

No insurance for a road vehicle police pull you & confiscate vehicle; same should applies to boats. In fact if you think about it the ones to watch out for are using boats whereas ships I reckon are very rarely without professional crew


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## Twocky61 (Aug 14, 2014)

In fact when does a boat become a ship relative to size of craft?


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## Biggles Wader (Jul 18, 2013)

You can of course be proscecuted currently for failing to obey the maritime law irrespective of license or qualifications.I believe the skipper of the yacht/ship collision in the solent was fined a life changing amount of money.Other cases include a yachty who illegally navigated along a TSS in the Dover strait so enforcement is possible.Is further regulation required?Who knows.


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Biggles Wader said:


> You can of course be proscecuted currently for failing to obey the maritime law irrespective of license or qualifications.I believe the skipper of the yacht/ship collision in the solent was fined a life changing amount of money.Other cases include a yachty who illegally navigated along a TSS in the Dover strait so enforcement is possible.Is further regulation required?Who knows.


Enforcement is possible but woefully under resourced to the point of it being non existent. 
The two high profile cases you mention only occurred because of official surveillance at their respective locations, something that is very rare indeed.
I've reported a few yachts to the MCA in the past as have many of my colleagues. That number would undoubtedly be higher if there was a uniform and easily recognisable manner of marking/identifying yachts - something often lacking.


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## Biggles Wader (Jul 18, 2013)

I sound like I dont approve of education and qualifications which couldnt be further from the truth,I just dont approve of the inevitable mission creep that goes with compulsion and regulation.How much would it all cost to licence and regulate every small boat and to what benefit?Sounds like a bureaucrats wet dream to me.(Read)(Jester)


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

#19 

BW,

You hit the nail on the head.

No man has the power to compel anything unless he himself is subject to strict legal control; and may God forbid that it should ever be otherwise.

It is for that reason that compulsory pilotage is subject strict legal control.

We allow the state to compel anything at our own peril.


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Biggles Wader said:


> I sound like I dont approve of education and qualifications which couldnt be further from the truth,I just dont approve of the inevitable mission creep that goes with compulsion and regulation.How much would it all cost to licence and regulate every small boat and to what benefit?Sounds like a bureaucrats wet dream to me.(Read)(Jester)


So presumably you think the same about the requirements to have a license to drive a car?
As for cost - make the yachties pay them through examination and license fees.


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## Biggles Wader (Jul 18, 2013)

I think its a sledgehammer to crack a nut and I suspect we wont agree.I would,however,be prepared to change my opinion if there was some rigorous research which showed a clear benefit from more regulation including costings and who would be safer and why.


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

# 21

It's difficult to see much comparison between driving a boat on the open sea for pleasure and in driving anything on the narrows of the public highway for any purpose. The differences are both vast and obvious.


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Barrie Youde said:


> # 21
> 
> It's difficult to see much comparison between driving a boat on the open sea for pleasure and in driving anything on the narrows of the public highway for any purpose. The differences are both vast and obvious.


The end result is the same though - careers ended and lives needlessly ruined.
Small craft on the "open sea" aren't the problem, it's when they're closer to shore that the trouble starts.


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

#24 

Jim,

I'm not at all sure that removing the absolute right to put to sea for pleasure would be the answer.

An absolute right is a most valuable thing and, as others have pointed out already, the rules of the road at sea apply to all of us, in any event.

Best rgds,

BY


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

James_C said:


> The end result is the same though - careers ended and lives needlessly ruined.
> Small craft on the "open sea" aren't the problem, it's when they're closer to shore that the trouble starts.


You mean when they are not in the environment?

(Something of the under the carpet stratagem)


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

Captain Smith had a extra masters ticket, in sail and steam but, he managed to hit an enormous ice berg. Prosperity has brought many benefits, including money to buy a boat. Unfortunately, it could not always buy common sense. Legislation won't, either.


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Samsette said:


> Captain Smith had a extra masters ticket, in sail and steam but, he managed to hit an enormous ice berg. Prosperity has brought many benefits, including money to buy a boat. Unfortunately, it could not always buy common sense. Legislation won't, either.


As tenuous, nay irrelevant comparisons go that's up there with the best of them.


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

I am glad you liked it.(Applause)


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## Ambak (Jan 31, 2014)

There is no comparison between driving a car and sailing a boat. A car is a potentially lethal weapon that can cause death and damage to third parties. How many third parties have been killed by ineptly handled boats? Would licensing also apply to rivers and canals? If so it would kill the leisure boat hire industry.


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## frangio (Jan 20, 2012)

Ambak said:


> There is no comparison between driving a car and sailing a boat. A car is a potentially lethal weapon that can cause death and damage to third parties. *How many third parties have been killed by ineptly handled boats?* Would licensing also apply to rivers and canals? If so it would kill the leisure boat hire industry.


Kirsty MacColl comes to mind immediately and I am sure there are many cases less famous.


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## 5036 (Jan 23, 2006)

Ambak said:


> There is no comparison between driving a car and sailing a boat. A car is a potentially lethal weapon that can cause death and damage to third parties. How many third parties have been killed by ineptly handled boats? Would licensing also apply to rivers and canals? If so it would kill the leisure boat hire industry.


The answer to that is many.
I absolutely agree with JC and the qualification system is already in place with the RYA. The problem lies in competence. To drive a car you are taught by a driving school and you sit your test under the independent auspices of a DVLA examiner. If you do not pass you do not drive. Consider the many who pass and should not be allowed within five feet of a piece of tarmac.
Now consider the RYA scheme. Instructors are trained by others in the RYA scheme and it is they who set up businesses to examine their own students. I know many schools that fail very few because it is not good for business.
The other problem is experience. For instance, UKSA (commonly referred to as U Kant Sail Anywhere) has a 17 week course (called the zero to hero course) at the end of which a full RYA Offshore Yachtmaster is issued. This satisfies MCA regulations as a fit person to command vessels over 70 feet (and up to 150 feet?) but there are no experience criteria to be met. A MCA seagoing master will gain his masters ticket but will not be allowed to assume control until he satisfies a lot of experience and competency assessments. Not so with the Offshore Yachtmasters. There are so many that often you end up on a boat with half a dozen chiefs and no Indians.
At Largs we had a Sunsail fleet. No yacht could be chartered unless the charterer had a RYA Yachtmaster aboard. The fleet is no longer there but everyone of them had had a new bow fitted at least once. (Mostly caused by putting a navigation buoy in as a way point and finding it.)

I bet a good few that JC had, quite rightly, reported had their full RYA Yachtmaster certificates but had no actual common sense or respect for other users.
The requirement to independently assess qualifications needs to be addressed.

Do we limit a rowing boat for fishing, say 8 feet long? Most would say no but they are a huge part of rescue statistics.

This is a video of a yacht racing on the Solent. Bear in mind that at 00:18, the escort vessel appears having just talked to the yacht telling it to keep clear.






The Royal Naval Sailing Association's vessel Atalanta of Chester yacht crew was made up of Royal Navy officers. The skipper, a serving officer at the time, was fined £3000 with costs of £100,000.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Ambak said:


> There is no comparison between driving a car and sailing a boat. A car is a potentially lethal weapon that can cause death and damage to third parties. How many third parties have been killed by ineptly handled boats? Would licensing also apply to rivers and canals? If so it would kill the leisure boat hire industry.



Plenty. I have lost count how many people I personally dealt with killed by the actions of others who knew nothing about handling a boat, rules of the sea, local currents, sudden change in weather and so on. And that was just on my small patch of the south coast, the figure far higher around the country, and most were avoidable. Year after year I had to deal with grieving relatives as well as the deceased themselves at PM. Just about every year a child did not go back to school killed on our coast totally needlessly. It was heartbeaking spending many an hour with mum and dad trying to console them. Anybody who had to deal with that once would not be against having a licence to handle a boat. The seaside is not a playground, but many think it is often to their cost sadly.

Having a licence and insurance does not mean deaths would not happen, but it would surely help. Being on the Isle of Wight, our waters are full of yachts and other small boats with cruise ships, cargo vessels, tankers and ferries trying to avoid them. 

Yes, I dealt with far more Road Traffic Accidents(RTA), but it is wrong to compare between driving a car and sailing a boat. An RTA can happen for all sorts of reasons, often with no other vehicle invloved. Early morning was the worst, often called out of my bed for a fatal accident not involving others.


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## inandaship (May 5, 2007)

The scariest I witnessed was about four years ago when a small motor cruiser came alongside Helensburgh Pier, the port and strbd. side lights were reversed, I kid you not, on pointing this out it was obvious by the look on their faces they hadn't a scooby what I was on about!


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## Twocky61 (Aug 14, 2014)

One thing I forgot to mention is when you are driving and a cyclist gets him/herself knocked off, generally their own fault, the driver is assumed to be in the wrong

So as seen on a recent video, a yacht cuts across in front of a tanker and gets run over is the ships captain deemed to be at blame?


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## Twocky61 (Aug 14, 2014)

I guess as the Captain is fully qualified to be a captain of a ship he is required to keep a constant watch out for other craft


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## 5036 (Jan 23, 2006)

Twocky61 said:


> One thing I forgot to mention is when you are driving and a cyclist gets him/herself knocked off, generally their own fault, the driver is assumed to be in the wrong
> 
> So as seen on a recent video, a yacht cuts across in front of a tanker and gets run over is the ships captain deemed to be at blame?


The ship is restricted by draft and small craft must keep clear, this is enforced by local By-laws, in that case the Southampton Water Bye Laws:

http://www.southamptonvts.co.uk/Port_Information/Regulations/Byelaws/

The relevant extract is
" *Navigation in fairways*
10. (1) The master of a small vessel, which is not confined to the fairway, shall not make use of the fairway so as to obstruct other vessels which can navigate only within the fairway.
(2) The master of a vessel crossing a fairway or turning shall not stop or slow down as to cause obstruction/damage to any other vessel.
(3) The master of a vessel shall not intentionally permit it to drift in any part of the fairway.
(4) The master of a vessel proceeding along the course of a fairway
shall keep as near to the outer limit of the fairway which lies on the vessel’s
starboard side as is safe and practicable.
*Moving Prohibited Zone.*
11.(1). In this byelaw -
‘’the Precautionary Area” means the main navigable channel which lies between an imaginary line drawn between Prince Consort and South Bramble Buoys and an imaginary line drawn between Black Jack and Hook Buoys;
‘’Moving Prohibited Zone’’ means an area extending 1000 metres ahead and 100 metres either side of any vessel of over 150 metres length overall while it is navigating within the Precautionary Area.
(2) The master of a small vessel shall ensure that the vessel does not enter a Moving Prohibited Zone.
(3) For the purpose of indicating the presence of the Moving Prohibited Zone the master of any vessel of over 150 metres length overall shall display on the vessel, where it can best be seen, by day, a black cylinder, and, by night, 3 all round red lights in a vertical line. "


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

Must have been asleep at the wheel;

http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?159690-Washington-Ferry-hits-boat&


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Didn't the passengers pick up the nautical lingo quickly?


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

Varley said:


> Didn't the passengers pick up the nautical lingo quickly?


HS and WTF ARE nautical terms in Puget Sound.


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## Day Sailor (Nov 9, 2014)

Priorities Checking the MAIB website, a large proportion of the casualties are fisherman who refuse to wear lifejackets despite being supplied them free or at low cost. Very few people drown IN boats. How about regulating the fishing industry first.


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Day Sailor said:


> Priorities Checking the MAIB website, a large proportion of the casualties are fisherman who refuse to wear lifejackets despite being supplied them free or at low cost. Very few people drown IN boats. How about regulating the fishing industry first.


That's a matter of personal choice and by and large doesn't interfere with the lives of others, unlike all the muppets out there who've never heard of rule 9 and are only able to parrot "steam gives way to sail" when asked about the ColRegs, all whilst they motor along with sails being set aback.


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## Day Sailor (Nov 9, 2014)

James_C said:


> That's a matter of personal choice and by and large doesn't interfere with the lives of others, unlike all the muppets out there who've never heard of rule 9 and are only able to parrot "steam gives way to sail" when asked about the ColRegs, all whilst they motor along with sails being set aback.


Same difference.

Anyway, regulation hasn't really been too successful in your industry http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=50741 and the Captain of the Prestige
(I am presuming that your avatar is indicative that you are a tanker man)


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Day Sailor said:


> Same difference.
> 
> Anyway, regulation hasn't really been too successful in your industry http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=50741 and the Captain of the Prestige
> (I am presuming that your avatar is indicative that you are a tanker man)


Regulation hasn't been successful in the marine industry?
I take it from that comment you have no experience whatsoever in it.
Perhaps because we still have car crashes we should abolish the driving test and permit a free for all on the roads too?


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## Day Sailor (Nov 9, 2014)

Good regulation is good, but it needs enforcement and common sense. For instance, underpaid and overworked employees falling asleep at the helm of a ship or wheel of a juggernaut will cause a far greater environmental catastrophe or carnage than someone who has or hasn't a ticket saying he is qualified to be in a boat or vehicle.

I think that a good rule would be making it compulsory for all those who go to sea to read the MAIB (Marine Accident Investigation Branch) reports on previous incidents and hopefully learn from the experience of others.

The RYA are generally against compulsory regulation for small boaters but very much in favour of them taking voluntary training and testing. Find out why.


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