# Navigation Apprentice Indentures



## Nova Scotian (Jul 2, 2006)

Some members have posted copies of their indentures in the Gallery and I have often wondered what became of mine. I finished my time with Houlder Brothers in 1968 and sailed 3/0 shortly after that. Is there anyway I can track down a copy of the do***ent, or is there a body I can contact to do this? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Cheers.


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

Nova Scotian:
You should have had your indentures when you got your job aas a 3/o.

I think you needed to present them when you applied to sit for your first cerificate.
The shipping company may have them as I had them returned by them on completion duly certified that I had satisfactoryly completed the required time.
Still got them though how I managed with all the moving about I did afterwards!.
Worth giving then a call if the still are about.


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## Nova Scotian (Jul 2, 2006)

lakercapt said:


> Nova Scotian:
> You should have had your indentures when you got your job aas a 3/o.
> 
> I think you needed to present them when you applied to sit for your first cerificate.
> ...


Thanks Lakercapt:

I do remember receiving them from Houlders. However, I seem to have lost them somewhere along the line. As Houlders are no longer around who would I contact today that might have a record of them or could point me in the right direction?

Cheers.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Mine have fine print at the bottom stating that:

This Indenture must be executed in duplicate and within seven days of execution both copies must be taken or delivered to the Registrar of Shipping and Seamen, Llandtrisant Road, Llandaff, Cardiff or to the Superintendant of a Mercantile Marine Office, both Indentures to be recorded. One Indenture, duly endorsed will be returned to the Company.

Therefore I think there must be a duplicate copy in Cardiff or wherever the Registrar is located these days, am sure one of the UK members will be able to update the address.

I note that mine (Furness Withy) were registered at Dock Street London.
Good luck
Bob (Halifax)


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## Nova Scotian (Jul 2, 2006)

Keltic Star said:


> Mine have fine print at the bottom stating that:
> 
> This Indenture must be executed in duplicate and within seven days of execution both copies must be taken or delivered to the Registrar of Shipping and Seamen, Llandtrisant Road, Llandaff, Cardiff or to the Superintendant of a Mercantile Marine Office, both Indentures to be recorded. One Indenture, duly endorsed will be returned to the Company.
> 
> ...


Thanks Keltic Star:

My indentures were probably registered in Dock Street too. My discharge book was issued from that office and Houlders were based in Leadenhall Street, London.

Cheers.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Nova Scotian said:


> Thanks Keltic Star:
> 
> My indentures were probably registered in Dock Street too. My discharge book was issued from that office and Houlders were based in Leadenhall Street, London.
> 
> Cheers.


If I remember correctly, being part of the Furness Group, Holders head office was at Furness House, 53-56 Leadenhall St. probably used the Furness communal office boy to deliver the Indentures down the road to Dock Street. I remember the little b-----d well, four of us from King Ted's had a joint interview for Cadetship with the powers that be, he made sure he slopped the tea into all our saucers so that we had wrestle with the soggy biscuit deposited therein while trying to get our first job.

In later years, I used Furness Holder as Lloyd's underwriters and I always thought back to that day whenever I was wined and dined in the Nelson Room at Lloyd's by senior Furness Holder management trying to keep the account. Times had changed, despite that little b-----d's efforts to scuttle my seagoing career before it had even started.

Alas, it is all over now, in 1991, I saw the Head Office brass plate of Furness Holder Insurance Ltd. displayed on a house in Ombersley, Worcestershire. Whether the great Furness empire had been reduced to a house in a country village in the Midlands or someone had bought the plate at an auction, I have no idea.


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## Nova Scotian (Jul 2, 2006)

Keltic Star said:


> If I remember correctly, being part of the Furness Group, Holders head office was at Furness House, 53-56 Leadenhall St. probably used the Furness communal office boy to deliver the Indentures down the road to Dock Street. I remember the little b-----d well, four of us from King Ted's had a joint interview for Cadetship with the powers that be, he made sure he slopped the tea into all our saucers so that we had wrestle with the soggy biscuit deposited therein while trying to get our first job.
> 
> In later years, I used Furness Holder as Lloyd's underwriters and I always thought back to that day whenever I was wined and dined in the Nelson Room at Lloyd's by senior Furness Holder management trying to keep the account. Times had changed, despite that little b-----d's efforts to scuttle my seagoing career before it had even started.
> 
> Alas, it is all over now, in 1991, I saw the Head Office brass plate of Furness Holder Insurance Ltd. displayed on a house in Ombersley, Worcestershire. Whether the great Furness empire had been reduced to a house in a country village in the Midlands or someone had bought the plate at an auction, I have no idea.


I was one of three King Ted's graduates that attended an interview at 53 Leadenhall Street in March of 1964. Houlders was our choice of company because of the many different vessel operations within their fleet. There was also a model of the Hornby Grange at the facilty at 680 Commercial Road that always impressed me (a real ship ship). 

We were greeted in advance by a kindly clerk ( left-handed handshake) who was connected to the Boy Scouts and had noticed, from our resumes, that two of us were in the movement. He gave us a quick overview of what the interview would involve and a few pointers about the superintendent who would be conducting it. From that point on my only communication with the company was by mail or telegram. 

Cheers.


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## vasco (Dec 27, 2007)

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-seafarer_information/mcga-rss-home.htm
The above link will get you the MCA seafarers page, I suggest you use the Seafarers Team. If this link doesn't work try this.

Registry of Shipping & Seamen

MCA Cardiff

Anchor Court, Ocean Way

Cardiff

CF24 5JW

TEL: 029 20448800

FAX: 029 20448820

For your info my Houlders Indentures were issued at Dock Street, London. 1968


Good Luck

Taffy


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## non descript (Nov 18, 2005)

Keltic Star said:


> If I remember correctly, being part of the Furness Group, Holders head office was at Furness House, 53-56 Leadenhall St. probably used the Furness communal office boy to deliver the Indentures down the road to Dock Street. I remember the little b-----d well, four of us from King Ted's had a joint interview for Cadetship with the powers that be, he made sure he slopped the tea into all our saucers so that we had wrestle with the soggy biscuit deposited therein while trying to get our first job.
> 
> In later years, I used Furness Holder as Lloyd's underwriters and I always thought back to that day whenever I was wined and dined in the Nelson Room at Lloyd's by senior Furness Holder management trying to keep the account. Times had changed, despite that little b-----d's efforts to scuttle my seagoing career before it had even started.
> 
> Alas, it is all over now, in 1991, I saw the Head Office brass plate of Furness Holder Insurance Ltd. displayed on a house in Ombersley, Worcestershire. Whether the great Furness empire had been reduced to a house in a country village in the Midlands or someone had bought the plate at an auction, I have no idea.


An interesting and very reflective comment - well remembered and I would suggest embarrassingly accurate in part.(Jester) 

Furness Houlder are still going and a relatively strong force in the insurance market, but they are no longer owned by Furness Withy. They were bought by Scottish Lion and later became part of the Tung Group, and the man who may have been wining and dining you, was possibly a Chinese gentleman called Jolly Chou - a most interesting person, with no match.... During the restructuring in the mid 80's, the Insurance side of the company was one of the very first parts to move away and later became a wholly owned company of China Merchants, where it still remains and trades as Houlder Insurance Services Ltd
(Thumb) 
Mark


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Tonga said:


> An interesting and very reflective comment - well remembered and I would suggest embarrassingly accurate in part.(Jester)
> 
> Furness Houlder are still going and a relatively strong force in the insurance market, but they are no longer owned by Furness Withy. They were bought by Scottish Lion and later became part of the Tung Group, and the man who may have been wining and dining you, was possibly a Chinese gentleman called Jolly Chou - a most interesting person, with no match.... During the restructuring in the mid 80's, the Insurance side of the company was one of the very first parts to move away and later became a wholly owned company of China Merchants, where it still remains and trades as Houlder Insurance Services Ltd
> (Thumb)
> Mark


No, the days I mention were pre Chinese ownership, 1996-1999. Roy Pulford was my top contact and Furness/Holder still had it's head office at 53-56 Leadenhall Street. During the same era, I used the services of Furness to do a full inventory on a cruise ship in Germany and at the end they presented me with a Prince Line tie to replace the one I had lost years ago. Still have it but only seem to wear ties at weddings and funerals these days.

In the 80's, my company was partially funded by a venture capital company who, along with Arne Naess, also had a large investment in CAST Container Line, who you may remember initially bought Furness but were ordered by the Monopolies Commission to immediately divest their interests. Consequence was that they sold Furness to C.Y. Tung who was rewarded with a Knighthood and CAST made a quick profit.
Bob


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## non descript (Nov 18, 2005)

Ah, I see; at least if it was pre-Chinese ownership, then regardless of the date, you certainly had to joy of getting your own back on the very people who had tried to put you down.
(Thumb) 
Mark


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## Orbitaman (Oct 5, 2007)

Please forgive my ignorance if I'm proven wrong, but I was always under the impression that the attempted CAST takeover of FW was in the late 70's and that CY Tung took the company over in 1980 and the Tung group ran it (asset stripping) until sold to Hamburg Sud in 1990.


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## non descript (Nov 18, 2005)

Orbitaman said:


> Please forgive my ignorance if I'm proven wrong, but I was always under the impression that the attempted CAST takeover of FW was in the late 70's and that CY Tung took the company over in 1980 and the Tung group ran it (asset stripping) until sold to Hamburg Sud in 1990.


Oh bother….(Jester) 
I was trying (in my post #11 above) to gently make the point that it was in 1980 that C Y Tung gained control of Furness Withy, and maybe Bob made a small typo error, hence my choice of text as I tip-toed through the mine-field of correction. - You are of course correct, although there is a case for not quite agreeing with your latter part, but I do accept it is an emotive subject and everyone has their view as to what would have happened to the fleet were it to have remained in UK hands.
Kind regards
Mark


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

*Correction*

Sorry for the confusion Gentlemen, the dates I mentioned should have been *1976-1979, *I really should do a better job of proof reading when posting late at night. I also have to correct the statement that C.Y.Tung received a Knighthood, as pointed out in a PM, it was Y.K.Pao who was the recipient of such largess.
I hope the Pao and Tung empires did not lose too much money from my error.
Bob


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## non descript (Nov 18, 2005)

Keltic Star said:


> Sorry for the confusion Gentlemen, the dates I mentioned should have been *1976-1979, *I really should do a better job of proof reading when posting late at night. I also have to correct the statement that C.Y.Tung received a Knighthood, as pointed out in a PM, it was Y.K.Pao who was the recipient of such largess.
> I hope the Pao and Tung empires did not lose too much money from my error.
> Bob


Good one Bob, and given their recent and respective family successes, I rather feel that both Mr Pao and Mr Tung have coped well, and have not been diverted from the straight and narrow by you very minor typo error. (Jester)


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