# Teleprinting



## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

The 'Side tone or Not' thread digressed slightly to teleprinting. The 'ticker tape' TAS machines had no local copy, so a form of having 'do side tone'.

I found this photograph that I thought at first was a TAS machine minus its cover, but think it might be a Teleprinter 7B. It seems to have a 5-unit code printer and reader. The innards of the two were very similar as the telex machine was I suppose a development of the tape printers. Perhaps someone can confirm this please ??

David

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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Looks like an old Military Murray Code Teleprinter, which not only produced the 4 ply hard copy but also a copy of both outgoing and incoming signals on tape.


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## GBXZ (Nov 4, 2008)

David
The unit on the left is a Creed auto head tape reader, a 6S6 model if I recall

Rgds


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Hi GBXZ. Agreed on the tape reader. The printer I do not recognise. It is certainly not the disastrous Creed 12 which caused us many hours of heartbreak! That machine was preceded by the American Remington TP which ran at 50 bauds indefinitely but the powers that be scrapped it when the bcasts went to 75 bauds. The US Navy seemed to be OK with them at that speed when I visited a US oiler in Norfolk.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

We still hear about "Tickertape Parades" these days and I always wonder where they get the "tickertape" now that teleprinters are long gone. How do you chuck a Twitter message out of a skyscraper window?

John T


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## Graham P Powell (Jun 2, 2007)

Looks like a 7B without the cover. TAS machines had long springy keys . Some of the guys at GKA could really shift on those machines but I couldn't. The thing to the left is tape reader over the telex dial up unit. On the shelf above is a tuning fork using to check the teleprinter timing. It vibrated at a fixed frequency which matched a black and white segmented disc fixed to the motor. If the machine was running correctly the disc would appear stationary when viewed through the tuning fork. I have given one to the Fort Perch Rock musem for their teleprinter maintenance. 
The 7b was replaced by the much nicer type 15 and when GKA closed
they all ended up in a skip. Such a waste......
I was a frequent "raider of the lost skip" but never managed to acquire one.
rgds
Graham Powell


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

MIMCo supplied _Creed 7B_ machines like that - with tape punch and reader - (but not the dial-out unit for obvious reasons) to the Shell tankers involved in the early data-logging/transfer trials. Data collected in the engine room was sent ashore via HF (using Marconi _Autospec_ error-correcting equipment) through Portisheadradio to Shell Centre.

The 7Bs were also supplied to the early data transmission facilities on North Sea rigs, initially also using _Autospec_, later _Spector_. 

The _Creed 7B_ machines were overtaken by the _Creed 444_ but although the _7B_ was not as easy to use (for an untrained typist) as the _444_, it had the great advantage of being so much lighter to carry than the back-breaking _444_. Taking the _444_ down a tanker jetty or up accommodation ladders just about wrecked you.

Better than both Creed machines was the _Siemens T1000_ but I only ever handled a few of those.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Everything Allied Military wise went automatic via the R.I. (Routing Indicators), these were listed in an A.C.P (Allied Communications Publication). Every ship, shore base, Embassy etc was listed in this publication along with it's code letters. I could write out an F. Sigs, give it to the Comms and it could reach the addressee anywhere in the Allied World. The Land Lines were gas protected and along with the Teleprinters were maintained by the G.P.O. If the line/link was interfered with the link would go down. A great system but now out of date due to encoded Sat Comms. As previously mentioned the gear went into the scrap bin.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Metallic mince - from the same supermarket as chocolate camshafts?


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

This thread brings back a big chunk of memories.

I used the Creed 444 (GPO type 15) which had everything in the picture above contained in one unit. My understanding at the time was that it was the first machine designed to be used by anyone who could type rather than a trained operator. 
It was a very noisy, heavy beast of a machine and sat on its own heavy duty desk and, preferably, it its own room! 
As part of the 'operator friendly' design it would sound an alarm if anything needed attention; The only problem being it was the same alarm for anything and one had no idea what the problem was without checking everything. 

I remember getting hands on a BT Cheetah electronic telex in the 1980s and being blown away with how much better it was than the old mechanical machine - less noise, compose message on screen rather than tape. 
Life was short for the Cheetah - along came Fax, PCs with emails and all the rest.
I still occasionally find myself using telex abbreviations when typing a direct message or text, but most people don't recognise them as such because text messages have 'adopted' quite a few of them anyway. 

BIBI


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

At the M.H.Q's they had tape relay rooms which had banks of tape reader heads installed, the noise when they were all running was incredible.


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

We had a Creed teleprinter installed in our Auckland office in the mid 60's to hasten and cheapen contact with Australia and the UK. Anyone could cut a tape off line at any speed then feed the message through live. 
A new typist was game and fast enough to cut and send to England on line until she was distracted, walked away from the machine for a chat, which resulted in a huge Post and Telegraph bill but fast talking saw them cut the bill in half and a chastened lady did not do it live again.

Bob


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## Graham P Powell (Jun 2, 2007)

I seem to remember at GKA having a three day training course when we changed over from type 7's to type 15's. Ours were all made by ITT Creed in Brighton and being interested in engineering I was always impressed by the quality of the moving parts. Like everything else in the station they got a real hammering being at work round the clock in some places. The computerized message handling system did away with most of them and it was a lot quicker.
regards
Graham Powell


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

As you say Mad Landsman, the 15 was a noisy beast. This was the 'mod' used in the landline room at GKZ. There was a flap you could fold down to complete the sound proofing, or should I say reduction. It had a handy ledge when in the up position to send greens. I think the laid back dress code indicates I was on nights at the time.

The 7B in my earlier post was on a BT exhibition stand at the Lincolnshire Show Ground featuring a 'Then and Now' theme. There was a fibre optic 'blowing' machine to view so guess the 7B was 'Then' !!

David
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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

A 'hush-box' - pure luxury! 

I wish I had taken photographs of all the kit. But one didn't because it was just there and didn't need its picture taken. 

Another thing that I remember was the small container for the chaff or frass that was punched out of the paper tape. 
There were instructions that under no cir***stances could it be used as confetti, or otherwise thrown about - apparently the little discs were slightly concave and the edges could cause damage if they got in a person's eye. 
(OK to throw the contents of the office hole punch though). 

Malcolm.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

david.hopcroft said:


> As you say Mad Landsman, the 15 was a noisy beast. This was the 'mod' used in the landline room at GKZ.


After the demise of the Creed 7B, MIMCo supplied a lot of Creed 444 machines to both ships and rigs but I never saw the "Soundproof" cover, other than at the Brighton factory (when we visited prior to deciding to adopt the 444 as the standard machine to offer with radioteleprinter installations) and at Highbridge as shown in the photo. 

Even the Type 15 installation that the GPO supplied to replace the 7B land-line telex installation in what was referred to as the "Telex Room" at Elettra House in Chelmsford (a cubby-hole under the stairs at the main entrance), didn't have a cover. Mind you there was no-one there, other than the telex operator, to be distracted by the noise.


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## Graham P Powell (Jun 2, 2007)

Certainly a room full of type 15's pounding away could be a very noisy place.......!
rgds
Graham Powell


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## Duncan112 (Dec 28, 2006)

R651400 said:


> The "chaff" I remember as being called "chad" from US terminology as the Americans produced a "chadless" (apparently the name of the inventor) keyboard reperforator where the hole punched in the tape was not complete leaving the chad attached like a tiny flap.
> To add to this reperforator's ingenuity and probably for typing accuracy, above each punched baudot letter the equivalent alphabet letter was also printed on the tape.


Thereby the hanhing chad beloved of the US electoral system


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## LouisB (Dec 23, 2007)

King Ratt said:


> Hi GBXZ. Agreed on the tape reader. The printer I do not recognise. It is certainly not the disastrous Creed 12 which caused us many hours of heartbreak! That machine was preceded by the American Remington TP which ran at 50 bauds indefinitely but the powers that be scrapped it when the bcasts went to 75 bauds. The US Navy seemed to be OK with them at that speed when I visited a US oiler in Norfolk.


@King Ratt

I seem to remember Rab the the tp on P.L. had, as part of its innards, some elastic bands. I believe that the classification of these items was 'eyes only' 

LouisB. (Scribe)


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Hi LB. That was my particular mod but only if you could stretch to it! Were you there when I used to copy all the Reuters and Assoc Press?


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## LouisB (Dec 23, 2007)

King Ratt said:


> Hi LB. That was my particular mod but only if you could stretch to it! Were you there when I used to copy all the Reuters and Assoc Press?


Yes Rab - remember it well, only because that was such a good trip with a good crowd and Curly as the O.M. Always remember when the N.L.O. in Mombasa came aboard and there was Curly with his banjo/mandolin. Back to tp's, - I think the main receiver was a B40/41. built like the proverbial brick outhouse but was inclined to drift after synchronising with GMT time signal. Was it true the specialised elastic tp accoutrements were a confidential item? 

LouisB. (Scribe)


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## Bill.B (Oct 19, 2013)

Oh the Joys of B41/40 Creed teleprinters and synchronizing. Spent more time calling for repeats than tearing off telex paper on Orangeleaf. Still have a couple of tools from the Creed kit.
Years later ashore worked on the Siemens T100 and there were really good pieces of kit. 
Bill


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

For LB. I think the elastic mod was kept dark from the manufacturers.
For R651400. The broadcasts from shore were using 850 Hz shift using tone freqs of 2125 and 2975 Hz. The ship transmissions also used 850 Hz shift but tones of 1275 and 2125 Hz because the higher freq of 2975 Khz was attenuated in the passband of the NT204 transmitter (Naval type 640). This resulted in power differences of the transmitted tones


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

For R651400.
Afraid I don't know the answer to your query. I retired in 1992 and the broadcast comms then were still using uncorrected ITA2 but encrypted. No FEC or the likes was employed. I imagine today that more complex stuff is employed because I hear little or no 75 or 100 bauds stuff on the HF bands. Only unencrypted ITA2 on what must be the channel availability can be heard and displayed. However my HF facilities are now reduced to a single Japanese NRD525 and no modem or Hoka Code 3 equipment. Quite content to keep my morse receiving up to speed by listening to amateurs around 7018 Khz. There are some really good ops on there.


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## TC2 (May 31, 2011)

trotterdotpom said:


> We still hear about "Tickertape Parades" these days and I always wonder where they get the "tickertape" now that teleprinters are long gone. How do you chuck a Twitter message out of a skyscraper window?
> 
> John T


They shred all the dodgy do***ents and dump them out the window


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

For R651400. Thanks for that. It is a new site to me.

73

KR


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

TC2 said:


> They shred all the dodgy do***ents and dump them out the window


Thanks, TC2. Sounds like a good plan .... Especially for town councils.

John T


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## LouisB (Dec 23, 2007)

King Ratt said:


> For R651400. Thanks for that. It is a new site to me.
> 
> 73
> 
> KR


@King Ratt

Thanks for the PM Rab - I have replied but I'm not sure if it was sent. I'm using an ancient netbook that I have resurrected - anyway thanks much appreciated. LB.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

For LB. QSL yr PM.

KR


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## charles henry (May 18, 2008)

I always noticed that equipment made and used in the UK was designed to look extremely technical and tended to be overated.

Remember being sent to Ireland to look at a potential link carrying radar from Malin(?) head to Dublin. There was one repeater station required and I priced out a guyed tower. There was an "expert" from the GPO who acted in a very obnoxious manner stating that the wind factor required a self supporting tower.
At the meeting I simply said, "no need for the expence of such a tower, we would use a guyed tower with a "torque resister", The GPO man got extremely annoyed and said, "I have never heard of such a thing, what is it?" my reply was, "I wont tell you unless we get a purchase order".
He left the meeting in the huff, the Irish engineers loved me.

Ahhh memories
Chas


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## GW3OQK (Jun 10, 2010)

KR, I have not seen RATT mentioned yet, but believe that is what you are describing and you are clearly its King. 

Visiting Halifax some RCN ops took me to CFH. I had never seen or heard a live teleprinter before and there was a hall full of them all clattering away. What for I dont know, I think they were even active in between messages. 
73
Andrew


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

EXRO said:


> KR, I have not seen RATT mentioned yet, but believe that is what you are describing and you are clearly its King.
> 
> Visiting Halifax some RCN ops took me to CFH. I had never seen or heard a live teleprinter before and there was a hall full of them all clattering away. What for I dont know, I think they were even active in between messages.
> 
> Andrew


The 24hr 'Out Logs' for each machine are about the thickness of War and Peace, between messages they are copying the tapes to put down another line if there are a high number of Routing Indicators for one message (Broadcast). Busy places Military Commcens especially during Exercises. RBDG.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

For EXRO. I was dubbed King ratt by my SRO in the RFA Tidesurge around 1967/68 when the RN introduced RATT as the main method of ship/shore comms for warships and RFAs. I had been working with GXO/Mauritius as they tested their equipment. I did this for some weeks and eventually when they said they were "open for business" I sent them a signal which turned out to be the first through their system. I received a signal back from their SCO saying " congratulations, you are our first customer, especially in view of your position". The ship was then up in the South China Sea. Henceforth my boss gave me the nickname and supplied me with Tiger beer for some time.

regards

KR


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## holland25 (Nov 21, 2007)

I had my first go at RATT on the Olmeda in 1969, we were in homewaters and I cant remember who it would have been with,Whitehall perhaps? It worked well and it was a first with my colleagues. The SRO and the 1st said they preferred hand morse. I remember that cutting the tape correctly was the hardest part.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Again from memory when cutting the tape there was a small lever which they either pushed/pulled which cut the tape with a arrow head, on the tape behind the arrowhead they wrote the DTG and the message number, or am I thinking of a different machine? The 'Tons' were the last vessels in the R.N to use morse only. RBDG


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## GW3OQK (Jun 10, 2010)

Thanks KR. I was never hands on with RATT, only saw it and heard it. In the late 70s, I think, I was installing SITOR which I believe used the same freq shifts but pulsed the tx on and off. I was always astonished when it worked! I recall eventually finding the demute of the R551/CJP was too slow and after cutting an electrolytic out it suddenly became error free and reliable. I was detained for many hours by UK customs with a teleprinter in my van and no paperwork, coming back from a job in Brest.

I wonder what's used these days
Andrew


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## rusty1946 (Aug 15, 2008)

KR was it a requirement in the RFA's to be able to read the tape? we had to read the tape so that we knew where to insert into the reader/sender


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

For Rusty1946. It was necessary to know certain characters at the beginning of the tape transmission. If I recall a message would start with 5 spaces and then UU (followed by 2 carriage returns 1 line feed) and on the next line
RR or PP or maybe OO depending on the signal priority. It was not necessary to know all the characters but after some time one tended to learn them.
Hope this is of some interest to you.

KR


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## rusty1946 (Aug 15, 2008)

Thanks for that KR, when I left school I joined the Royal Navy as a radio op, where we learned how to read the tapes much the same as you did. When I done my time I then joined Prestwick Airport in the comms dept which was all teleprinters and massive tape readers/senders, we also handled all the aviation weather for Scotland. I eventually left there and joined Glasgow Nautical College for my RO's course and eventually gained my MRGC


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## sparks69 (Dec 18, 2005)

I once saw a picture of the ships steering gear made up of x's and sent to the London Office to explain which bit they needed to make it work ! 
The paper copy was about 5 feet long !


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

The Tape shown in my gallery gives a superb picture of Concorde, all worked out on sheets of graph paper. RBDG


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm amazed how you all remember the types of ttys you used. I just tended to use the gear, but pay no attention to its makers. A problem, I had, sometimes, was the electric/mechanical tty with the original 'Comsat General' satcom. The Creed I think, I sailed with, with Mimco TORs. I sailed with what may have been Creeds, two off. They had a wee monitor/computer, incorporated in the unit, instead of the punched paper tape. A separate Tx and Rx for each. Any info on the latter would be appreciated.

Duncs


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