# Largest Fleet Of Ships



## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

At the hight of the British Merchant Navy which company/Line had the largest amount of ships. I know City Line had a lot of ships as well as the Port Line. Anyone know the answer,this is not a quiz I would just like to know the name of the company.
John(Thumb)


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

Only a guess, how about Clan Line? Cheers, jock.


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## janbonde (Jun 19, 2005)

Not too sure but seem to remember when I sailed with BTC, before I returned to Canada back in the 40/50`s seeing a card or list saying BTC had 175 vessels at that time.Perhaps some long serving BTC/BP mariners could verify this


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## PollY Anna (Sep 4, 2006)

BP would be good but P.& O. would also be a good runner as they had interests in lots of other companies. 

Ron


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

*largest fleet*

Shell must be up in top few ,with all their Bunkering boats as well as deep sea ships ?
derby


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## Chris Isaac (Jul 29, 2006)

I always thought it ws BP.
But B & C at their height was about 120
P & O was i think a bit bigger.


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## John_F (May 12, 2005)

I think it probably depends on what you use as a measuring stick & when you consider which were the peak years of the British Merchant Navy. During the late 50s, early 60s, BP was certainly a front runner in terms of number of vessels & deadweight tonnage. In 1958/59 when I joined BP they had about 130 deep sea vessels, all registered in London. I cannot say what was the total deadweight tonnage but as they owned some of the largest vessels (in dwt terms) in the world then I suspect they were also the world leaders. Shell's total world wide fleet was possibly larger but scattered under a variety of flags, although the UK flagged fleet was probably the largest in the group but not the largest in the UK. 
I'm open to argument though.
Kind regards,
John.


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

I was after the large ship count (not bunkering type) yes Clan had many and so did Ben Line and Glen,keep them coming guys.
John


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## K urgess (Aug 14, 2006)

I always thought it was a tramp ship company like Bankline or Hungry Hogarths who had the largest fleet under one company house flag.
Probably company propaganda.[=P] 

Bankline had a fleet of 45 sailing ships and in 1955 had 45 cargo ships in the fleet.


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## Trader (Jul 1, 2005)

Hi John,
I would think that Blue Funnel must have had one of the largest dry cargo fleets in the 50's. I think that when I was there in 1952/56 they had about 65 ships. I remember reading the "Journal of Commerce" in those days which gave every Thursday a Blue Flue Fleet list and where all the vessels were or where they were due.

Trader.


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

which shipping company used to boast of being able to put one of its ships into any major port in the world within 72 hours????????????


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## Tom S (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote from Board of Trade Aquaintances
Between 1914 and 1946 P&O acquired a number of other shipping companies, beginning with the British India Steam Navigation Company whose Chairman Lord Inchcape also became Chairman of P&O following the retirement of Sir Thomas Sutherland. The New Zealand Shipping Company, Federal Steam Navigation Company, Union Steam Ship Company of New Zealand, Hain Steamship Company and James Nourse were taken over during the First World War. Orient Line, Mercantile Steamship, General Steam and Strick Line were acquired soon afterwards, Moss Hutchison Line and New Medway Steam Packet Company in the 1930s, and Eastern & Australian Steamship Company in 1946.

Under Lord Inchcape’s Chairmanship from 1915 to 1932, the combined fleet grew to a peak in the mid 1920’s of nearly five hundred ships of many different kinds, ranging from P&O’s traditional black-hulled passenger and mail liners to coasters, colliers, Thames pleasure steamers, state-of-the-art refrigerated cargo liners on the New Zealand/UK service, and passenger/cargo ships of all shapes and sizes trading along the coasts of India, the Gulf, and East Africa.

P&O itself continued to concentrate on large, fast passenger and mail steamers. Its best ships served as troopships and armed merchant cruisers in both World Wars. Several were sunk, but most losses suffered by the P&O Group - 85 ships in the First World War, 179 in the Second - were as part of the massive contribution by its cargo ships to the struggle to keep Britain supplied with munitions, raw materials and foodstuffs.

TomS


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## randcmackenzie (Aug 31, 2005)

sparkie2182 said:


> which shipping company used to boast of being able to put one of its ships into any major port in the world within 72 hours????????????


Bank Line.


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## Jim MacIntyre (Mar 11, 2006)

Following quote from introduction to Merchant Fleets Furness Withy by Duncan Haws
'Of all the compnaies in my 6,000 plus file Furness Withy has been among the most frustrating. My records sprawled across many companies and from Lloyds Registers I amassed over 600 FW ship names, excluding Houlder Bros, Prince and Manchester Liners'.
I suspect, John, you would have to subdivide your question - it would have to be either 'company' or 'line' because in their heydays shipping companies were made up of several shipping lines at any given time. In some cases only a percentage of a subsidiary was owned. Even then it will probably be tough to get a definitive answer. 
An interesting thread to follow... 
All the best 
Jim MacIntyre


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## Mick Spear (Jan 6, 2007)

Shell or BP would have been well above the other companies in terms of numbers and tonnage.

Mick S


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

bang on randc.................well done. 

bank line..........any major port in the world, in 72 hours.

quite a claim........

best regards


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

if i remember correctly....

it was esso international.............by which i mean........all the "esso" tankships under various flags.............

who claimed to have a complete crew "in the sky".........24/7 for ship reliefs worldwide

if true.......is amazing.


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

Looks like I opened a can of worms here,maybe we should only count the ships with company logos on the stack or house flags. My money is on BP then Shell.
John


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

what about esso, john?


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

I think BP was bigger than Esso.


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## Mick Spear (Jan 6, 2007)

*Most ships*



John Rogers said:


> I think BP was bigger than Esso.


John

You're right. I would put a lot of money on it. Between Shell and BP. That's based on the question of most ships under the british flag.

When i sailed with shell between 84-88, many of the older hands would often state the statistics of early to mid seventies and sometimes the statistics from just after WW2. 

Mick S


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## r.hirons (Jun 10, 2007)

when i joined BP in 1967 i was told they had the largest fleet of privately owned ships in the world.


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## BlythSpirit (Dec 17, 2006)

> when i joined BP in 1967 i was told they had the largest fleet of privately owned ships in the world.


Hardly privately owned when the majority holder in BP was the British Government!


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## R58484956 (Apr 19, 2004)

Greetings r hirons and a belated warm welcome to SN. Thanks for signing on and may you have many happy hours browsing the world of maritime news and chat. Bon voyage.


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## PollY Anna (Sep 4, 2006)

Great thread I was impressed with the detail of P.& O. which went a long way to confirm my first thoughts. It would be interesting to get a final tally, but me thinks rather difficult. To lose so many ships in the 2nd WW gives a good lead to the general size of the Company and we all know the vast majority sailed the Red Duster. Still food for thought I suspect we will never get a final result.

Regards Ron


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## Peter (Pat) Baker (Oct 3, 2005)

When I joined Harrisons of Liverpool in 1957 I was told that this was the biggest privately owned shipping company in Britain. True or not?
Peter (Pat) Baker.


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

> At the hight of the British Merchant Navy which company/Line had the largest amount of ships... Anyone know the answer,this is not a quiz I would just like to know the name of the company.


Wouldn't it depend on whether you meant the most by tonnage or number of ships?(?HUH)


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## Peter4447 (Jan 26, 2006)

I was under the impression that one of the largest individual fleets (prior to going to P&O) that sailed under the Red Ensign was British India.

Peter4447


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## Tom S (Jul 22, 2006)

If anyone interested in the size and details of BI Fleet try this site
http://www.biship.com/ships.htm
Regards
TomS


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## davetodd (Jul 8, 2007)

From Ships List :-
"By the early 1900's the Wilson Line was the largest PRIVATELY owned shipping company in the world."
"1916 Wilson Line bought by Ellermans". Now who's largest?
Difficult to say which was the "biggest,largest,most ships etc."
Ask the Guiness book of Records??
Best Regards
Dave Todd


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## R58484956 (Apr 19, 2004)

No statements in my GB of R of any use to the question


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## andysk (Jun 16, 2005)

davetodd said:


> From Ships List :-
> "By the early 1900's the Wilson Line was the largest PRIVATELY owned shipping company in the world." ......


But wasn't the max number of vessels owned by an individual company in those days less than 100 to cir***vent (sorry, take advantage of) the tax laws ?

I seem to remember hearing that from a presentation about Ellerman's Wilson line given to my local WSS branch a few years ago.

Cheers

Andy


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## davetodd (Jul 8, 2007)

From "Wilson Line" by John Harrower ISBN 0 905617 72X in the section
The Golden Years he states:-
"It may be appropriate at this point to discredit the myth that any shipowner having a fleet of one hundred or more seagoing vessels in the years prior to1914 had to provide a cruiser for the Royal Navy and that this was the reason that Wilsons ensured that the fleet never exceeded ninety-nine.As a fact, the fleet rarely exceeded ninety but, in any case,there was no truth in the story."
However, this was relating to pre- 1914 and as we all know requirements change as often as politicians.
Best Regards
Dave Todd


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## R58484956 (Apr 19, 2004)

In the 1950's BTC had 216 ships under their jurisdiction( charters not included) British Transport Commission had 118 ships. But world wide the US Department of Commerce had nearly 1900 ships, and not a beer amongst them.


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## oldbosun (Jul 8, 2004)

When I read John Rodgers post I thought he meant a fleet with the same funnel markings denoting a single company, not what Company and all its subsideries.

In that context I immediately thought of Red Duster flag Shell (Anglo Saxon Petroleum Company) 135 ships in the 40's & 50's, and BTC (Better Times Coming) Maybe more than Shell we heard then.

We also thought Blue Flue was a huge company years ago. That is Blue Funnel ships not counting Glen Line and all Alfred Holt's other subsideries. 

So I vote for Joe Shell or BTC

Not to digress,says he digressing, but I do remember also the story that was going around in those days that companies with huge fleets had to provide the Government with cost of a warship (via taxes?) to contribute to their fleet's protection, but I don't know if there was any truth in that

PS Who _*was*_ Joe Shell, anyone know?


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

More likely he was a Dutchman from Anglo Dutch. You are correct oldbosun thats what I meant to convey in my post.
So is it Shell Oil or is it British Tanker BP.
John.


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## exsailor (Dec 18, 2005)

Shell or BP? This from 'Ocean Tanker Fleets' by R.W.Jordan, 1975 edition. 

SHELL -
Shell Tankers (UK) Ltd. = 52
Tanker Finance Ltd. = 17
Shell Tankers (Overseas) Ltd. = 27
Methane Tanker Finance Ltd. = 1
Shell Canadian Tankers (1964) Ltd. = 1

BP - 
BP Tanker Co. Ltd. = 60
BP Medway Tanker Co. Ltd. = 10
BP Thames Tanker Co. Ltd. = 16
BP Tyne Tanker Co. Ltd. = 2
Clyde Charter Co. Ltd. = 1
Crestaford Ltd. = 1
Eyruflex Ltd. = 1
Scalesdrene Ltd. = 2
Solamole Ltd. = 1
Tanker Charter Co. Ltd. = 3

List is of vessels greater than 10,000 tons GRT, includes gas carriers, but excludes vessels on charter or owned by joint ventures. Listed companies were majority owned by Shell or BP and vessels were, at time of publication, all flying the 'Red Duster'.

Dennis.


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## PollY Anna (Sep 4, 2006)

Oldbosun I heard the same story about warships ie size of fleet, BUT did a lot of companies get round this by having their ships designed so that in the event of war they could quickly be altered into armed merchant cruisers perhaps this could be the foundation for a new thread. I am sure there are people out there who could help with this, unless it's covered by the Official Secrets Act?

Regards Ron


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## Peter (Pat) Baker (Oct 3, 2005)

When I said that I was told in 1957 that T&J Harrison were the biggest private company in Britain, I meant the largest number of ships owned by one man, in that I was told that there were, at that time, no shareholders.
I still do not know if this was true or not.
Peter (Pat) Baker.


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## oldbosun (Jul 8, 2004)

Well Polly Anna, you have really jerked my chain now. Memories come flooding back.
I remember when I was on "Bloemfontein Castle" and she was pretty new then and word had it that she could convert to an aircraft carrier in short time because Union Castle got a govt. subsidy in her building for that reason.
Looking back though, it would have been a pretty small aircraft carrier.
Amazing the stuff we took for gospel at the time isn't it. 
The messroom authority being something like, "the second mate told me and he should know" or "I read it in a Readers Digest last trip." The Readers Digest being the seamen's authority in all things. 
Such naivete, not to be confused with stupidity though.


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## K urgess (Aug 14, 2006)

The shipboard plans of the Port Townsville displayed in the bridge deck alleyway, showed the strengthened points for mounting a 4 inch gun on the focsle hatch and machine guns on the boatdeck/bridge wings. The masts were also out of line with the centre line so that aircraft couldn't line up properly for a hit.

I don't think Port Line had enough ships to qualify for having to provide armed merchant cruisers unless they were counted in with Cunard.

Kris


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

Looking at page 187 of Port Line by H. Spong there is a photograph of PORT TOWNSVILLE (2) of 1951 which has only one mast: there is a stump mast on the for'd goalpost for the for'd steaming light but that had to be in line with the after steaming light, which was sited on the only mast, according to the colregs when she was built. The radar scanner was also sited on the goalpost with its own support mast inboard of the starboard post. If it is PORT TOWNSVILLE (1) that is referred to, her triadic & jumper stays seem to be in line in her photograph on page 174 & as she was lost in 1941 by bombing, burning & sinking it is unlikely that the on-board the drawings would have survived. It is most unusual for British merchant ships to display plans for potential armament in public areas where they may be inspected by officials in foreign ports. In my experience such plans were normally lost or co-mingled somewhere with all the other obscure ones or stored with the 'secret' military stuff in the locked boxes in the focsle. The degaussing cable plan was the only one that was readily available in an insulated refrigerated ship. 

Tony.


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## K urgess (Aug 14, 2006)

I can only report what I saw and what I was told, Tony. 
The drawing was definitely on display and yes it was the 1951 Port Townsville on which I sailed from September 1968 to February 1969.
Maybe I should have said the goal posts were purposely not aligned.[=P]


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## rivet (Feb 18, 2006)

this will surpise everyone, in the 1950's & 60's i was told that British Rail had the highest tonnage of ships
Rivet


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## pete (Mar 13, 2005)

sparkie2182 said:


> bang on randc.................well done.
> 
> bank line..........any major port in the world, in 72 hours.
> 
> ...


and any minor port within 7 days....................pete


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## quietman (Nov 7, 2006)

oldbosun said:


> Well Polly Anna, you have really jerked my chain now. Memories come flooding back.
> I remember when I was on "Bloemfontein Castle" and she was pretty new then and word had it that she could convert to an aircraft carrier in short time because Union Castle got a govt. subsidy in her building for that reason.
> Looking back though, it would have been a pretty small aircraft carrier.
> Amazing the stuff we took for gospel at the time isn't it.
> ...


The same was said about the old Oriana when I was aboard her in the early 70s.


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## brian daley (Jul 14, 2007)

*biggest fleets*

Alfred Holts certainly is a contender for the title of the operator of the biggest fleet,I seem to recall that they had just under a hundred vessels under the AH flag in the 50's. As part of the Ocean grouping they had the Glen Line,Elder Dempsters and numerous far eastern companies as part of their combine.But, not lets forget F.T.Everards,they had an enormous fleet,and The Sea Breezes used to carry their pictures on the back page in the 60's and 70's.
In todays Mail On Sunday,there is a small item in the financial pages reporting how Britains Merchant fleet is growing,it now stands at 28 million tons.
Well,its better than it was!
BrianD


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## PollY Anna (Sep 4, 2006)

Well Brian (D) Interesting but where are the crews coming from. Is the Board of Trade reopening the sea schools that would be a laugh. It's a far cry from the days of yore. Still any growth in an Industry must be applauded and encouraged.


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## briangboyd (Jul 11, 2007)

sparkie2182 said:


> which shipping company used to boast of being able to put one of its ships into any major port in the world within 72 hours????????????


I seem to remember BP as having that boast.
Brian.


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## KIWI (Jul 27, 2005)

The original question was company/line which it would seem make one of the tanker co's front runner.However if if it were Groups the answer I imagine would take some research.P&O for instance among its many co/lines owned USSCo NZ which in turn owned or had a majority interest in many NZ coastal co's even tho they had seperate management etc.So much for Global Corp being a relatively new trend. Kiwi


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## Forbes1922 (Oct 14, 2010)

*BP Ships*



John Rogers said:


> At the hight of the British Merchant Navy which company/Line had the largest amount of ships. I know City Line had a lot of ships as well as the Port Line. Anyone know the answer,this is not a quiz I would just like to know the name of the company.
> John(Thumb)


My 1969 BP diary shows they had 193 ships,Which included Lowland and Clyde shipping companies, also 2 ships Brandon and Bideford Priory. probably all registered like this for tax reasons

Forbes


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## Dickyboy (May 18, 2009)

Forbes1922 said:


> My 1969 BP diary shows they had 193 ships,Which included Lowland and Clyde shipping companies, also 2 ships Brandon and Bideford Priory. probably all registered like this for tax reasons
> 
> Forbes


I joined BP in 1967 and seem to recall that, according to the ''BP Fleet News'' crew list BP had 183 ships at that time. They still had quite a few 12s in those days, and over the next few years most of them went, to be replaced by newer and bigger ships.
When I left BP in 1977, if I recall correctly, they had around 80 ships, but the fleets tonnage hadn't changed much.


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## Ray Mac (Sep 22, 2007)

(==D)Everards(Thumb)


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## Dickyboy (May 18, 2009)

Burned Toast said:


> (==D)Everards(Thumb)


''Gosport Liners'' (Jester)


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## Jon Vincent (Dec 31, 2006)

I love this question, it was debated through all my tickets at college, everyone thought they worked for the largest company, even the RFA guys thought they were the largest company. it terms of tonnage under the red ensign the title must belong to BP. number of ships is debatable, during me cadetship with Prince line, the Furness Group claimed they were the largest, although each of their companies jealousely guarded their personnel departements which all had different terms and conditions, who knows the real answer to this question.


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## Forbes1922 (Oct 14, 2010)

*BP Ships*



Dickyboy said:


> I joined BP in 1967 and seem to recall that, according to the ''BP Fleet News'' crew list BP had 183 ships at that time. They still had quite a few 12s in those days, and over the next few years most of them went, to be replaced by newer and bigger ships.
> When I left BP in 1977, if I recall correctly, they had around 80 ships, but the fleets tonnage hadn't changed much.


Hi Yes there was still a few 12.s I think the Br.Vision , Br Hero Br Gunner and Br Seafarer all of which I sailed on were all
about 6000 nrt smallest Ship I saled on was Br Navigator, the old one,3400 nrt
I sailed as Ch Steward with B P from 1961 to 1981 when we were all made redundant,ended up as Purser with Cable and Wireless.
Mike Butler ( Forbes)


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## fordie (Feb 12, 2009)

how about the rfa in the 50&60 years,must be near top of the league?


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