# Mersey Ferries



## Mike Kemble

I have various images of the royal Daffodil and Royal Daffodil II, but was confused when I was sent this image of a twin funnelled ship supposedly called Royal Daffodil, which to my mind is impossible as the Ferries had the original, and subsequent follow on's of that name. The only time there was a clash was in 1934 when they sold Royal Daffodil to Kent and she ran on the Medway 34-38.

Royal Daffodil was then build but the board of trade said they could not call it that because the RD already existed, so the new boat was named Royal Daffodil II (see third image). The one sold to Kent was the single funneled boat in the image below. Both cannot have been the same, obviously. So, what the heck is the twin funnelled ship? It does have two names and does look like royal whatever, but image not clear. Anybody know the two funneled ship??? I do know it was never a Mersey ferry.


----------



## Barrie Youde

Mike,

If it helps (and it probably won't) your third image looks very much like one of the trilogy originally built as Mountwood, Woodchurch and Overchurch in the early 1960s for the Birkenhead service. All three were similar but not identical. Originally built with only one mast (the foremast as shown in the present picture). The mainmast was added at a later date when somebody appreciated that a second masthead light might help a bit.

Sorry I cannot help with either of your earlier two pictures.


----------



## James_C

The two funnelled Royal Daffodil isn't a Mersey ferry at all, she was built in 1938 for General Steam Navigation for their excursion trade around the Thames/Medway/Kent area.
Wiki explains it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Royal_Daffodil_(1939)


----------



## Mike Kemble

this is where it gets confusing Jim, we now appear to have 2 Royal Daffodils operating on the Medway, both no 1 and no 2 are daffs of the Medway.

Barrie. no its definitely RDII, I used to ride the boats to work daily back then. I have the Birkenhead boats too, but they are not the same.

The uploaded image shows the former Mountwood & Overchurch in their 'new' livery. And renamed, much to the annoyance of ferry fans on the river. Nowadays they only run ONE single ferry at a time, either Snowdrop or Royal Iris of the Mersey. And the fares are astronomical for what they achieve. When I used to ride the boats back in mid 60s, it was 1d each way. Now its over £7. To my mind they cant rename a boat 'royal' because only the Daffodil and the original Iris were given that accolade by the King after WW1.

Jim your link does not lead to the two funnelled ship at all but the ferry.


----------



## Barrie Youde

Mike,

My apologies.

A fleet list of Wallasey Ferries appears on Google.

There was a Royal Daffodil II built in 1934 as a coal burner and renamed St Hilary in 1957. It is definitely not her.

Then in 1958 a new-built Royal Daffodil II was delivered - and her name was changed to Royal Daffodil before being sold out of the fleet.

Then at a later-date, the still relatively-new Overchurch was re-named Royal Daffodil. As you say, it is all very confusing!

And yes, you are quite right that the "Royal Daffodil" as shown in your third image at #1 is almost certainly the vessel built as "Royal Daffodil II" in 1958, shown in your photograph after the modification to her name. A further obvious point which I should have spotted immediately is that the vessel which you show appears to have three passenger decks (two enclosed, plus an open top-deck) whereas the three ferries built for the Birkenhead run each had only two passenger decks (main deck plus open top-deck).

I really, really should get out more!


----------



## tom roberts

*Birkenhead ferries*

Wow I had better not let my missus see this post she is correct in saying that they are Birkenhead ferries and hates them being called Mersey ferries and to add that they do not even call at Birkenhead Woodside any more another diabolical insult to the ferries is the ghastly dazzle paint job ugh.


----------



## Dartskipper

More information here;


www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/950674/title/royal-daffodil/cat/502


----------



## James_C

Mike Kemble said:


> this is where it gets confusing Jim, we now appear to have 2 Royal Daffodils operating on the Medway, both no 1 and no 2 are daffs of the Medway.
> 
> Barrie. no its definitely RDII, I used to ride the boats to work daily back then. I have the Birkenhead boats too, but they are not the same.
> 
> The uploaded image shows the former Mountwood & Overchurch in their 'new' livery. And renamed, much to the annoyance of ferry fans on the river. Nowadays they only run ONE single ferry at a time, either Snowdrop or Royal Iris of the Mersey. And the fares are astronomical for what they achieve. When I used to ride the boats back in mid 60s, it was 1d each way. Now its over £7. To my mind they cant rename a boat 'royal' because only the Daffodil and the original Iris were given that accolade by the King after WW1.
> 
> Jim your link does not lead to the two funnelled ship at all but the ferry.


Try again Mike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Royal_Daffodil_(1939)
Note for some reason SN misses the final bracket, i.e. add an ")" to the address when you click the link.
This most definitely refers to the 1939 GSN ship, the first RD was scrapped a year before this one was built.


----------



## Mike Kemble

James_C said:


> Try again Mike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Royal_Daffodil_(1939)
> Note for some reason SN misses the final bracket, i.e. add an ")" to the address when you click the link.
> This most definitely refers to the 1939 GSN ship, the first RD was scrapped a year before this one was built.


 
*1932 - 1956 Royal Iris II (First triple-decker, renamed “Royal Iris” in 1947 and “StHilary” in 1950)*
*1958 - 1977 Royal Daffodil II (Built by Philip andSons of Dartmouth*
*1960 - Woodchurch, (Built by Philip and Sons of Dartmouth and twin to the“Mountwood”, refitted and renamed "Snowdrop" in2004)*
*1960 - Mountwood(Built by Philip and Sons of Dartmouth and twin to the “Woodchurch”,refitted in 2001 and renamed “Royal Iris of the Mersey” in2002)*
*1962 - Overchurch (Built by Cammell Lairds to the same plans as the“Phillips’ Twins” but with some modifications and was the firstMersey Ferryboat of all welded construction, refitted andrenamed "Royal Daffodil" in 2000) *

I am right - the 1958 boat was the Daffodil II, and I rode on her regularly on New Brighton trips to the landing stage. The Bhead boats have been renamed, much to everybodies chagrin. And, as mentioned above, theat horrible damn razzle dazzle paintwork is abominable. This situation arose because of the next most hated thing on Wirral, The Wirral Borough council. I hate to bring politics into this but it all started to go wrong when a certain party got into power, bearing a red flag'. They control the Ferry, note singular, because we who were so proud of our boats have lost the lot. By the way, Liverpool, the main recipient of the boats, never paid a penny nor provided a single boat to the 'cause'. My own ferries pages are on the site listed below.


----------



## James_C

Plenty of photographs of the GSN ship in the SN gallery.
The following link has a photograph of her at Southend pier, see here: http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/950674/title/royal-daffodil/cat/502


----------



## Mike Kemble

thanks Jim, it only adds to the confusion as we now have a Royal Daffodil that was never on the Mersey, and certainly not a Mersey ferry! But Kent HAD a royal daffodil that was once on the Mersey. As the BoT clearly stated that no two ships can have the same name at the same time, something is seriously wrong here. This is why RDII was used from 1958, the new, triple decker. OR - should this have been Royal Daffoldil III - AAAGGGHHH!! The only 'ferry' of this size that operated from the Mersey was the Llandudno ferry. they were called St Tudno (plenty of pics in the gallery) and possibly another. They had nothing at all to do with the Mersey ferries.

Nurse, the screens!!! [=P]


----------



## Barrie Youde

Mike,

You'll forgive this, I hope, but last night I was watching an old Dad's Army re-run - and it had one of the best endings of all! I had not seen it before.

To cut a long story short, in the very final scene, Captain Mainwaring is challenged to play the bagpipes -piping in the haggis at a formal Scots Regiment dinner. Everybody expects him either to duck out of it or else to cock it up spectacularly.

What actually happens is far, far better than either of those things - and is quite brilliant! Can you play the bagpipes?

Best wishes,

BY


----------



## Mike Kemble

I cant even play comb and paper!!!


----------



## James_C

Mike Kemble said:


> thanks Jim, it only adds to the confusion as we now have a Royal Daffodil that was never on the Mersey, and certainly not a Mersey ferry! But Kent HAD a royal daffodil that was once on the Mersey. As the BoT clearly stated that no two ships can have the same name at the same time, something is seriously wrong here. This is why RDII was used from 1958, the new, triple decker. OR - should this have been Royal Daffoldil III - AAAGGGHHH!! The only 'ferry' of this size that operated from the Mersey was the Llandudno ferry. they were called St Tudno (plenty of pics in the gallery) and possibly another. They had nothing at all to do with the Mersey ferries.
> 
> Nurse, the screens!!! [=P]


The first RD - which was sold to the Thames - was scrapped the year before the GSN ship came into service, there was therefore no clash of names. 
The 1934 Mersey ferry was named RDII from new until she was renamed ST HILARY when the 1957 vessel came into service, the 1957 ship also took the name RDII and retained that name until she was sold in the 1970s.
It was not until OVERCHURCH was renamed in 1998 - i.e. a gap of 60 odd years - that there was again a Mersey ferry with the simple name "ROYAL DAFFODIL".


----------



## Pat Kennedy

Mike Kemble;[/QUOTE said:


> This situation arose because of the next most hated thing on Wirral, The Wirral Borough council. I hate to bring politics into this but it all started to go wrong when a certain party got into power, bearing a red flag'. They control the Ferry, note singular, because we who were so proud of our boats have lost the lot.
> 
> 
> And here was I thinking that the ferries were run by The Merseyside Passenger Transport Authority .(more recently renamed the Merseyside Integrated Transport Authority) which comprises 18 councillors assembled from Merseyside's five districts: Liverpool, Knowsley, St Helens, Sefton and Wirral.
> You may hate WBC, but I think you are out of order in this respect.
> (Whaaa)


----------



## Mike Kemble

Pat Kennedy said:


> This situation arose because of the next most hated thing on Wirral, The Wirral Borough council. I hate to bring politics into this but it all started to go wrong when a certain party got into power, bearing a red flag'. They control the Ferry, note singular, because we who were so proud of our boats have lost the lot.
> 
> 
> And here was I thinking that the ferries were run by The Merseyside Passenger Transport Authority .(more recently renamed the Merseyside Integrated Transport Authority) which comprises 18 councillors assembled from Merseyside's five districts: Liverpool, Knowsley, St Helens, Sefton and Wirral.
> You may hate WBC, but I think you are out of order in this respect.
> (Whaaa)


Pat, the MPTE was another attempt to run the ferries outside of Council controls. There were only Birkenhead and Wallasey that ran these ferries for the past 200 or so years. Liverpool never had anything to do with it. The MPTE may have taken over the ferries but they never contributed even a rowboat to the running of them. In fact the MPTE was the beginning of the end for the famous Mersey ferries. This is giving people the ferries who never had any vested interest. Now, we are down to one ferryboat plying an empty river. When I rode the Mountwood and Overchurch in the mid 60s, to work, in offices and on the docks, the river was full of ferry boats, liners, cargo vessels and support vessels. Now even the waves are undisturbed. you are only scratching the recent surface of Ferry History; even Gerry and the Pacemakers tried to claim it all for Liverpool.


----------



## Pat Kennedy

Mike Kemble said:


> Pat, the MPTE was another attempt to run the ferries outside of Council controls. There were only Birkenhead and Wallasey that ran these ferries for the past 200 or so years. Liverpool never had anything to do with it. The MPTE may have taken over the ferries but they never contributed even a rowboat to the running of them. In fact the MPTE was the beginning of the end for the famous Mersey ferries. This is giving people the ferries who never had any vested interest. Now, we are down to one ferryboat plying an empty river. When I rode the Mountwood and Overchurch in the mid 60s, to work, in offices and on the docks, the river was full of ferry boats, liners, cargo vessels and support vessels. Now even the waves are undisturbed. you are only scratching the recent surface of Ferry History; even Gerry and the Pacemakers tried to claim it all for Liverpool.


Nevertheless, your attempt to blame the Labour controlled Wirral Council for the present state of the Mersey Ferries is misguided.
All public transport in the Liverpool City region is operated and controlled by Merseytravel, a body which has been in existence for at least 40 years. Its' Transport Committee is composed of 26 elected councillors from the following;
Knowsley Council - 4 Members
Liverpool City Council - 6 Members
St Helens Metropolitan Borough Council - 4 Members
Sefton Metropolitan Borough Council - 4 Members
Wirral Metropolitan Borough Council - 4 Members
Halton Borough Council - 4 Members

You may have good reason to dislike WBC, God knows they can appear to be a bunch of incompetents at times, and I know this because I was a local government officer in Wirral for over 25 years.
But, the ferries situation can be traced to falling passenger numbers over the years and high costs of operating and maintaining the boats, particularly in these times of Conservative government imposed austerity. (EEK)


----------



## Barrie Youde

It would take very much more than modern party politics to make economical sense of any Mersey Ferry service.

That has always been the case and no doubt always will be.


----------



## makko

Be thankful that there is at least still one ferry boat running. I was sure that they would have finished years ago.
Rgds.
Dave


----------



## Mike Kemble

Pat, you will remember how great Bhead and Wallasey was before the WBC then. anyway, think this has run its course now, you are all great lads.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#19 

Who pays the Ferryman? This was an excellent TV drama in the 1970s, with Jack Hedley in the leading role. I can't recall the precise storyline but it it exemplified the principle that if a ferry service cannot be made to pay then it will not (and ultimately cannot) survive.

From 1945 to the present day the requirements of a Mersey Ferry service changed beyond all and any recognition; and demonstrably and obviously so. From the opening of the Mersey Road Tunnel in 1934, the competition against the ferries increased. In the 1950s, Birkenhead Corporation (which operated the Birkenhead Ferries) advertised the service as "Still by far the cheapest and healthiest way" to cross the river - and so it was, until some point in the early 1960s.

By that time the ownership of motor-cars, with vastly increased independence and convenience all-round, began to show the commute by ferry across the river as something which was nothing more than quaint and belonging to a bygone era. As long previously as 1886, the underground railway tunnel had promoted that same view. By about 1970 at the very latest, it was clear that the days of the ferries, with the best will in the world, were numbered, for all of the reasons which were obvious and, not least, because nobody was willing any longer to pay the ferryman.

The last straw came when the ferry-crews began a series of strikes, without notice, leaving potential passengers suffering a high degree of inconvenience which few would tolerate any longer. And so the decline of the ferries continued, just as previously the stage-coach had disappeared from the roads and square rig had disappeared from deep-sea commerce. In short, the ferries were no longer commercially viable.

I join Dave in being thankful that there is still a ferry-boat left at all. At substantially more than fifty years old, this is a remarkably long working life for any motor-ship of any kind.

PS Gerry Pacemaker today is my neighbour. He and I have yet to meet. Mike is absolutely right in pointing out that in the heyday of the ferries, Liverpool did very little, if anything at all, to maintain them.


----------



## BobClay

I took a trip on that ferry last year (I put a pix of it in the gallery) on a bright sunny day in April. 

It seemed more of a touristy thing now, with a quick ride down past Cammell Lairds and then across and up along the Dock Road side. I have to say I enjoyed it (first time in my old pool for decades) apart from the inevitable playing of *♫ Ferry across the Mersey. ♪*

(Pint)


----------



## James_C

There probably is a market for a pedestrian ferry on the Mersey. However it'd probably need multiple calling points to be useful and be a fast, aluminium catamaran style vessel as is normal elsewhere in the world.
All it takes is some foresight and investment.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#23 

After you in making such an investment!

In their heyday the ferries were an attractive proposition for commuters because of their frequency of service. 
The crossing from Liverpool to Birkenhead took about six minutes, which meant that at peak times with two boats in service a boat would leave either side every ten minutes, the two boats passing each other in mid-stream (allowing for a four-minute turn-around at each end). Liverpool to Seacombe provided a similar rapid and frequent service. Even at off-peak times there was a ferry every fifteen minutes - and thus a realistic service.

Also there was an infra-structure of corporation buses in attendance at the ferry-terminals at both Woodside and Seacombe. On the Liverpool side, most commuters simply walked to and from their offices in the city.

Today the bus services on the Wirral side are a shadow of the former service; and on the Liverpool side, city offices and office staffs are likewise far, far fewer in number. Many office buildings are converted into residential accommodation or restaurants etc.

It might just be possible to make some kind of tourist service pay (as now) but it seems very doubtful that any commuter service by ferry will ever be seen again.


----------



## Mike Kemble

BobClay said:


> I took a trip on that ferry last year (I put a pix of it in the gallery) on a bright sunny day in April.
> 
> It seemed more of a touristy thing now, with a quick ride down past Cammell Lairds and then across and up along the Dock Road side. I have to say I enjoyed it (first time in my old pool for decades) apart from the inevitable playing of *♫ Ferry across the Mersey. ♪*
> 
> (Pint)


I paid a small fortune to ride or the Scenic Route Ferry as we could not get a direct ferry after 0930 hrs. Guess what - yes, I paid over the odds for me and my grandsons and ended up direct to Liverpool. When I complained, they were not interested.


----------



## Pat Kennedy

All you doomsayers may have to eat your words.

_"Plans have been drawn up for a new Mersey ferry – and commuters will be asked what type of facilities they want on board.

Liverpool City Region Metro Mayor, Steve Rotheram today announced proposals for the vessel, with the tendering process getting under way in the next few months.

He said naval architects have prepared initial plans and there will be a period of public consultation."_

Liverpool Echo 28th January

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/plans-new-ferry-cross-mersey-14201040


----------



## BobClay

(It's getting so an honest doomsayer can't make a living on this site … )

:sweat:


----------



## Mike Kemble

What has happened in Liverpool so that, for the first time in history, they are going to provide a Mersey Ferry boat??? Talk about leaving it to the last minute when people are talking about the disappearance of hundreds of years of WIRRAL History. Every ferry in the history of the ferries has been provided by Birkenhead Priory and Corporation and Wallasey Corporation.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#28 

Good point, Mike.

I wonder, too, how on earth commuting (or the wishes or needs of commuters) might relate today to the needs of a ferry service?

Am delighted to see any new-built ship with "Liverpool" painted on the stern; and trust (and hope) that the tourist trade will prosper ; but commuting by ferry today seems a little unrealistic.


----------



## Pat Kennedy

I have no doubt that the proposed vessel will be geared towards the tourist trade rather then the ferry trade.
Mike Kemble does not seem able to grasp the changed dynamics in the Merseyside area.
We are now living in the Liverpool City Region, a combined authority that takes in the old boroughs of Wallasey and Birkenhead along with the rest of Wirral and
Includes Liverpool, Sefton, St Helens , Halton and Knowsley.
I'm just pleased that a new boat is on the cards and have no axe to grind about who is responsible for thinking up the idea.


----------



## Mike Kemble

We who are from The Wirral did not want, and do not want to be part of any Liverpool super structure. It was forced upon us, but for our sins we have our own Council, the WBC. Geographically we are at present Merseyside but that is all.

I naturally assumed that a new 'ferry boat' was the meaning of the thread title. A new ferry for the river. If it is as Pat said, a tourist boat, that is a completely different scenario.

Keep Liverpool, I am Wirral. The Liverpool I knew and loved has been buried under glass and steel. Not to my tastes at all.


----------



## Pat Kennedy

Mike Kemble said:


> We who are from The Wirral did not want, and do not want to be part of any Liverpool super structure. It was forced upon us, but for our sins we have our own Council, the WBC. Geographically we are at present Merseyside but that is all.
> 
> I naturally assumed that a new 'ferry boat' was the meaning of the thread title. A new ferry for the river. If it is as Pat said, a tourist boat, that is a completely different scenario.
> 
> Keep Liverpool, I am Wirral. The Liverpool I knew and loved has been buried under glass and steel. Not to my tastes at all.


You do have a bee in your bonnet about this.
I'm from Wirral, born and still live in Wallasey, and I have no problem whatsoever with Wirral being a part of the Liverpool City Region.(Smoke)


----------



## Mike Kemble

Pat Kennedy said:


> You do have a bee in your bonnet about this.
> I'm from Wirral, born and still live in Wallasey, and I have no problem whatsoever with Wirral being a part of the Liverpool City Region.(Smoke)


and of course you are entitled to an opinion [=P]


----------

