# harmony of the seas.



## david freeman

Just read the daily telegraph (London), and looked at the picture of the new cruise liner 'Harmony of the Seas'.
The details given were crew 2000 and passengers 5479 ,length 1188 feet. the picture page 14 from aft to ford port side, I note a total of 9 totally enclosed life boats., with a midships space for a liferaft station. (maybe two life boat lengths overall).
I now ask the questions?
1 what is the total capacity of lifeboat seats for all souls ( 2000+ 5479) = some 7479 Souls. This gives assuming Portside and starboard side life boat capacity identical some 3740 souls, this in my estimation gives a total of 3740/8 'souls' per lifeboat=470persons souls in total: Should the boats be double stacked that gives a total of some 255 'souls' persons per lifeboat.
I am wondering how the Harmony of the Sea sinks, 
1/ Is It with or on an even keel, and level trim fore and aft ?

2/ How does one assemble 3740 'souls' on the port and starboard sides within the muster stations (whether with multiple decks or not), and load all souls safely onto the life boats- should the vessel not sink on an even keel, level trim?
For instant a life boat say 10 within the total length of 1188 feet, gives a lifeboat of some 118 feet in length ( Capacity????). If greater than 255 and a total capacity of 470 'souls' then loading and the time taken from muster to launch may become critical.

3/ to load a totally enclosed life boat completely with its full complement of 'souls', how is this achieved assuming one can only load form one side only, and through a limited number of water tight doors ( as I assume these are totally enclosed lifeboats, and fully self righting design ). Her I am thinking of time once again, how does the harmony of the seas sink in an orderly fashion and outwith a minimum time limit of say 30 minutes- which may be the time required to shift the ships ballast to ensure she sinks in an orderly fashion, with respect to trim and heel.

THis vessel makes me ask these questions- Is the Titanic situation about to be repeated???? i.e. the total number of lifeboats, and their total capacity for the 'souls' on board.(K)(K):sweat:


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## Dillon Mahoney

I can't answer most of your questions, but from what I know there are inflatable Life Rafts onboard as well as the lifeboats. Plus there will be some lifeboats that are larger and used as tenders.


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## david freeman

*boarding life boats, life rafts in times of an emergency*



Dillon Mahoney said:


> I can't answer most of your questions, but from what I know there are inflatable Life Rafts onboard as well as the lifeboats. Plus there will be some lifeboats that are larger and used as tenders.


I bow to your knowledge. My mind drifts back equipment before I retired in 2002. I still with respect beg the question of how do you board an inflatable life raft, even it is davit launched ( time again what is the time allowed for multiple liferaft -rigid or inflatable launches in a safe fashion?), and contained within a case/casket that self inflates when it is activate by seawater. Again what about the total 'souls' on board are they all, mobile, young (Child), old, can they physically enter the inflatable life, and is it or does it have a rigid floor or canopy?
Are the souls/passengers amongst them segregated, not by decks/cabins, but by mobility, and dexterity of movement ability, so that the more mobile mann the liferafts and the young and old mann the lifeboats? Again is there a time factor involved and what is it to clear the muster stations and for all souls to enter the sea safely?
Again does the ship sink in an orderly fashion under any unforeseen event.
Are we back to pilot ladders/scramble nets or other devices or plain jumping over the side into the sea-Now if one does this how much freeboard is there between the muster stations and the sea at the envisaged draft when the ship 'Harmony of the SEas, sinks in an ordely fashion, under emergency conditions.
It is all grist to the mill! and I am sure well thought out and considered! This old fart has his index finger up his fundamental orifice, with mind in neutral, and just wonders-What IF?
AS always the ship vessel is the safest place to be if one preserve its integrity! But things do happen at sea, and we do not have an international 'RNLI' following every vessel , or indeed very large helicopters planes that can rescue some 7000+ souls from a stricken vessel? or do we? Answers on a post card please.
I did try the site of Royal Caribbean lines for technical details of the ship? I got them related to the voyage and passenger comforts etc, not those pertaining to a modern as designed IMO internationally trading passenger vessel with 7000+ souls on board- I am curious and only requesting information, to satisfy curiosity? Maybe I should read the updated IMO construction regs, and guidance for such an international trading passenger/cruise vessel.
If you can point me in the right direction, that would be appreciated, I only wish to understand the design of a modern ship.[=P](H)


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## vinnie05

A very interesting comment. As a retired shipbuilder I have also doubts about getting the 7,500+ people off a ship of this size in the case of a real emergency. Over the years I have worked on safety plans a number of times and on the voyages I have made, the first thing I did on board was consult the safety drawing while most never do. What happens if the vessel is holed below the waterline and starts to list? One look at what happened to the Costa Concorida and it becomes mind boggling.


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## Mad Landsman

A regular topic on SN - some might even say a chestnut. 

The ship complies with IMO (SOLAS) regulations in respect of Life Saving equipment, and the LSA code. 

The requirement, simply stated is that there shall be lifeboat capacity for 50% of the total number of persons carried on board on each side, or 100% total. 
Liferaft capacity may be substituted for some of this figure. 
On top of this there should also be 25% each side capacity in inflatable liferafts. 
Some sources state that only a total of 25% is required. 

SOLAS regs states that the maximum capacity for a lifeboat should be 150 - except where it can be demonstrated that a larger number can be boarded within the recommended time, which is 10 minutes from the deck to the boat. 
As a result of this exception a new 'Mega' lifeboat is now being carried on the largest cruise ships. The capacity is 370 carried on two decks loaded at two levels. It does not require moving from a stowed position to a loading position and completely different davits are used. 

As a result of this the capacity of 18 lifeboats is 6660. 

The Liferaft loading arrangements have also been amended. A chute arrangement from the weather deck to the water will be deployed. This chute contains baffles intended to slow the person's progress. The idea is that this would mainly be used by crew rather than untrained passengers. 
In maximum loading conditions each actual lifeboat might only have 5% crew with the remaining crew using the liferafts.

The Primary rule is that the ship is the safest lifeboat and taking to the boats is an absolute extreme last resort. 

On many cruise ships currently in service the muster station (or assembly position) and the lifeboat station are not the same. 
Upon the '7+1', passengers will, on many large ships, be directed to an inboard assembly position. It may be that the emergency would not require the ship to be evacuated and passengers can remain in relative comfort while being counted and accounted for and while the emergency is being assessed and/or dealt with. 
If it came to an evacuation each muster station will have a clearly identified team to escort them to their lifeboat without the need for further checking.

The rules for actual mustering passengers and crew and the times stipulated vary according to size of ship and number of fire zones but around 30minutes is a good target. 

Use of lifeboats as tenders: There are only small differences between a pure covered lifeboat and a ship's tender. 
The tender will normally have a steering position with better visibility and have strakes and fenders for placing alongside docks. It will usually have two propellers and may even have an open upper deck. 
The capacity will be displayed as something like; '150 or 100 as a tender'


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## david freeman

*mad landsman*

madlandsman, has explain, and addressed my earlier questions. Thank you.
I still remain interested, in the leaving dock/port, alarm test for all the passengers and non essential crew, with respect to time from pushing the alarm bell/sounding the abandon ship alarm to the satisfactory conclusion of the actual drill completion to man/board the lifesaving appliance whether it is a raft or boat. and the all clear message from the captain bridge.(H)(Cloud)


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## Pompeyfan

David

You may find more information by joining Cruises & Cruising here on SN. See here to join http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/profile.php?do=editusergroups by putting a dot in Join Group. It is a subscription based forum, but free to join. You can also join by clicking information below the main forms and above SN Directory Information. We discuss all things cruising with several forums including weather and port and ship webcams. We also have s Cruising Health & Safety Discussion forum where you can discuss safety at sea in threads already opened. As Mad Landsman has indicated, your concerns are a regular topic so please have a look, and open a new thread if need be. Members are usually those who cruise a lot, so should be able to answer your questions.

I personally think it would be very difficult to rescue all passengers from these monsters carrying thousands of passengers if holed badly like Costa Concordia miles out to sea. I had my own lifeboat aboard the 1954 built Arcadia, and even we on a ship her size would have struggled. Today, some giant cruise ships have more crew than we had passengers. My boat took just over a 100 passengers and crew, but my biggest concern even in those days was those with mobility problems. As ships nurse, it was not a problem, but with my hat on as coxswain, it was very different. I was also coxswain when the ship anchored in ports using my boat as tender. Again people with mobility problems struggled to get aboard either at the ship or ashore, but it was also good practice for my crew. But during the real thing, the ship sinking, and everybody in a panic including the able bodied, it could be total mayhem. We practiced every week at crew drill, sometimes lowering my boat in port, but you never know for certain what it would be like for real, how will the crew react, let alone the passengers.


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## Mad Landsman

Part 2 - Drills. 

It is an absolute requirement that all persons boarding a ship on an International voyage/cruise should be satisfactorily briefed as to what actions are required from them in the event of an emergency. 
To this end the Cruise ship companies make it a requirement that every passenger attend an assembly or muster drill before, or as soon as practicable after, the vessel leaves the port at which they boarded. 
All crew, including entertainment and ancillary staff, will be required to have full training and to be allocated duties in the event of an emergency. 

On most, probably all, cruise ships the cabin/stateroom television will have a dedicated channel with a full and comprehensive safety briefing. The steward will normally leave this switched on at time of boarding. 
The muster station is printed on the issued pass card and on the back of the room door. 

Announcements are normally made advising of the time of the mandatory drill, counting down to ensure everyone is aware. 
Crew will be instructed to take up positions to 'direct traffic' about five minutes or so before the drill. 
Some ships ask that passengers carry life-jackets, some state that will not be necessary. Most will tell passenger NOT to wear life-jackets for the drill. 
(The reason for not wearing them, which passengers are not told, is that there is an assumption that many will not put them on correctly before having been shown and the resultant trailing webbing could cause someone to fall on a stairway.) 
The normal signal is sounded via the ship PA and everyone proceeds to their designated muster station via stairways only. Alternative routes, even though more direct, are not permitted during the drill. 
The low-level marker lights are switched on. 

On arrival at the muster station each person is required, individually, to report to designated crew for that area. 
When everyone is present a full safety briefing will be given, with demonstration and practice of donning a life-jacket, a précis of safety procedures and alarms which might be heard and full details of what to do in all such eventualities. 

Often the Captain or Staff Captain will make a short statement on the PA before thanking people for attending (it was mandatory) and giving permission to stand down. 
The whole event from first pipe to stand down could be as short as 30 minutes. 

When a ship calls at a number of ports and passengers embark at these ports of call then those passengers will be required to attend a similar drill, if only a small number are involved then it would not be a full drill but a simple briefing and not necessarily at the correct Muster Station. They would be shown the correct muster station separately. 

Crew drills: 
Crew are also required to attend their own drills, as part of on-going training as much as anything. 
These could be rostered partial drills where some crew will still maintain passenger services. They would normally be carried out when a ship is alongside and a high proportion of passengers have gone ashore. These drills make require lifeboats to be placed ready but in most instances, not actually deployed. 
Full crew drills would usually be carried out on a changeover day when there are no passengers present. Sometimes the relevant Port Authority will require such a drill and will monitor it. 
Engineering drills would require the ECR to take control of the ship's systems and also test the EDG. 
The launching and recovery of life-boats is normally practised as part of tender operations. One will sometimes see quite senior deck Officers in tenders in order to keep their hand in and maintain their tickets.

Malcolm.


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## Erimus

Malcolm agree...
Certainly on the five cruises I have been on in last four years there was a longish period of evacuation drill and on one,with Princess in Alaska, the crew all did the same drill which included bringing your own cabin life vests to the 'show'.....Also in Alaska both our vessel and an adjacent Norwegian Line ship had full emergency boat drill whilst passengers were ashore, including the launching of the ships boats. 

geoff


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## Mad Landsman

That reminds me: 
One other point - the Fast Rescue Boat - one each side. 

These are normally exercised while the ship is alongside. When one considers that in a real situation the ship would probably be under-way to some extent that is maybe not the best place to practice launching. The most practical and the one which would cause least upset to schedules; Yes, but real life; No. 

There is a YouTube video somewhere of a launch while under-way of an FRB with a very short painter - the result was not good for the crew as I recall.


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## Pompeyfan

I can only talk with experience about my days at sea, then as a passenger.

As crew, weekly drill on Arcadia, and before that Canberra, consisted of full drill, then boat drill. I was heavily involved in both. This was every week, not just in port when passengers ashore. 

Full drill included all crew being mustered in their respective parts of the ship to aid passengers etc. Myself, being medical, was in charge of the stretcher party, made up in those days by the 'U Gang. We were called to any part of the ship where there was a mock fire or whatever, often in the bowls of the ship. A crew member would act as the casualty for my party to carry him or her to the main hospital often through tiny hatches in the engine room etc. Once the full drill was over, we went to boat stations.

I then changed from medical department to deck department(the medical department was deck department anyway wearing gold)to my boat. On Arcadia as I said, I was the main coxswain having my 'lifeboat ticket' or as printed on it 'Certificate Of Efficiency As Lifeboatman. I passed mine in October 1973 being given my own boat soon after by Captain Dallas. My job was to assemble my crew under the boat on the Promenade Deck. Those who did not attend, were logged unless they had good reason not to be there. As Malcolm indicated, a senior officer may oversee myself and crew.

In ports, I often lowered my boat. We would spin around the harbour as part of the drill. Sometimes, we were being watched by the Americans as part of our safety certificate, which if memory serves me right was every six months, usually first American port of call. The day before the inspection the ship was cleaned from top to bottom, pot plants etc put into bond, and no fruit allowed amongst many other things that drove us mad including of course making sure all the lifeboats lowered etc. No doubt others may mention something of that era that I may have missed!

As I said, in anchor ports my boat as well as other lifeboats were used as tenders to transport passengers ashore. It also helped keep our hand in, those of us who were regular coxswains and those who had passed their ticket to keep their hand in. I had five in my boat, all of us able to lower the boat, and take charge of it once away from the ship.

As passenger, I have to say I was not impressed with crew drill, and certainly not passenger drill. Many passengers saw it as a bit of fun, all in party mood, not taking it serious at all. In fact, on one cruise we mustered in a public room. One of the entertainment officers in charge of the room, and giving us instructions(in addition to the captains address)praised passengers for getting their early. You would during the real thing wouldn't you. So if crew cannot take it serious, how do they expect passengers to. After the drill, I took this idiot to one side telling him if that had been during my day, he would be logged. 

As for the fast rescue boat two of our department were crew of the 'accident boat', as it was called in those day on both Arcadia and Canberra. This was usually the Assistant Doctor and Dispenser, but often me if the Dispenser busy.

Happy days. I know we all think the old days were best. But as indicated, being a trained crew member in all aspects of ships safety, crew drills, and lifeboat coxswain, I do worry about modern cruise ships having watched drills. I just hope I am badly out of touch.


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## david freeman

*BOT Sports*

THanks you all for the insight. My days on a scrubby old tanker 'once a week ''Board of Trade Sports'' was a requirement. If in port the davits were lowered to the boarding position, and then recovered without boarding the lifeboats. That was the 60,s.
Today is a different world, I trust not a step too far!!!
It must be fun on a large international ferry on short voyages???


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## sidsal

MY seafaring friends ( ex HMS Conway) seem to be agreed that these monster ships are an accident waiting to happen. On a lighter note the Orians , a few years ago encountered a storm in the Atlantic where some glass verandah was shattered and some sea came in. It is reported that Capt Fennilow - Commodore of the fleet was in command and he went to inspect the damage. When he got to the scene an excited woman passenger yelled - "Captain - Captain - there's water pouring down the stairs !"
Capt Fennilow a lugubrious old soul replied - "Madam- the time to worry is wnen the water is coming UP the stairs "


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## john g

Most passengers see the big ships as floating fun palaces and never consider the aspect of being at sea and possible dangers . Simply there is a major risk if something serious happens . Costa Concordia in some respects was lucky as she hit land ......big ships sorry no way for me in spite of all the "theoretical" regulations


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## Barrie Youde

The expression "the bleeding obvious" springs to mind; and there is nothing new about overloading a ship, either with passengers or freight.

We've all read, too, the castigations directed towards White Star ex-post-facto the Titanic disaster. Suggestions of unsinkability etc - all of which criticisms (as far as I know) seem to have been made only when the relevant problems were brought sharply into focus after (rather than before) the iceberg had been struck.

Does anybody know of any warnings/criticisms given in the late 19th/early 20th century when a similar rapid expansion in passenger ship size was taking place? Or, after Titanic in 1912, was it a case of "Gosh, honestly, nobody told us that this might happen"? 

Is it today merely a case of "Let's give it another go until disaster strikes again"?


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## Mad Landsman

Costa Concordia, and particularly her Captain were not 'lucky that she hit, or was near, land'.
The fact was that she was too close to land is how she got a bloody great hole in the first place. 
That one and many more are down to 'pilotage error' first and foremost. It is a matter for great minds as to whether the loss of life was avoidable - I think it was. 
Unlike Titanic, loss of life on CC was not attributable to any lack of Life saving Apparatus or any poor equipment on board; Communications, Navigation, Engineering etc. - It was a result of how that kit was maintained and used that cost lives. 

I fully go along with the oft quoted ' An accident waiting to happen' but also consider the basic H & S premise: Most accidents are the result of a poor assumption. 

One such: It is assumed in the SOLAS regs that lifeboats will carry a maximum of 150 souls - with an exception which must be conditional. 
As a result everything else that goes with it assumes the figure of 150. That means that when the exception (370) becomes the norm all the other assumptions no longer apply. 
So, Is all of SOLAS really relevant to these monster ships? 
Are we arriving at the same position as Titanic etc where the ship design runs ahead of the regulations? 

All it might need is a bit of 'Bad Luck' aka Pilotage Error to find out - I hope not.


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## vinnie05

I think the cruising market has been very fortunate that the only major incident has been the Costa Concorde. The trend seems to be build bigger and bigger every time and more passengers mean more money. If a catastrophic acident happens the loss of lives will be enormous. This latest design is so large that passengers are spread over such a large area can they find their way to the assigned muster station? Personally if I would go on a voyage, it would be on a merchant ship with just room for 12 pasengers!!


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## david freeman

*An adventure?*

Somewhere in the back of mind, I have the belief that in my youth and as a young seafarer, that if a person bought a steamships ticket, for a voyage of any kind or duration, was referred too by the selling agent shipping company as an adventure!!! In other words the destination was a desirable conclusion, but not a far gone conclusion, but and an 'ADVENTURE?'(Frogger)
I just wonder at these modern well designed cruise ships, small or large, are they a guarantee of a safe passage without 'ADVENTURE?'


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## ian keyl

I have read all the above views and ideas on the hypothetical emergency on board the H;of the Seas. Well for one it would certainly not be Harmony at sea. Having been at sea and on many cruises I also have concerns on these juggernauts of the sea. If we were to take part of everyone's questions and put them into reality then in my view we have a disaster.

Yes the crews practice and are competent at their duties but they practice without having to consider and handle screaming people,frightened children, infirm elderly and of course the drunks. 
Airlines practice to evacuate passengers from an aircraft either on to the ground or into the water in a certain time. Where as on ship we say 30 mins from sounding alarm to full muster in allotted locations then transfer from muster locations to embarkation boat stations. Then try an orderly loading of the boat with parents waiting for the children s club to arrive with their kids, those who are infirm trying to hold their ground with all the shuffling and pushing. There are 3/4 officers of some category trying to control things and talk over a bellowing tannoy system that few can understand what is being said , whilst it is raining heavily blowing a fair breeze and the ship has a list . With all dew respect to all sea going officers at sea on cruise ships very few give the impression they could control matters on the boat deck.
Yes the ship is a safe haven if all water tight doors are closed and compartments effectively sealed . but would the band continue to play and entertainers continue to do high diving into the pool whilst water is entering the stern between the two main blocks of accommodation. I don't think so. Joking apart here . My main concern is the movement of a vast number of people to places of safety on such a large vessel. 

Yes they have been fitted with these large escape chutes, do the crew use these once they have seen all the passengers embark of the vessel safely or do they become a free for all when they cannot get enough boats away.

I have one question on these very large life boats which are now on lower decks with a different type of davit which seems to be a fixed type which slides out horizontally and lowers to line up with the boat deck what keeps a large (almost a small Vessel) boat like this bowsed alongside the boat deck whilst loading 150/250 people whilst the vessel has a list on the same side. No doubt Schats and all the boat builders have tested this on mock ups but could that be compared with listing one of these vessels to say 18 degrees then try the boats, if it was in heavy seas and considering the free-board i would be worried if a boat could stay connected to the davits..

There is I am sure a lot to be considered and i have given my concerns lets pray to god it never happens. Ian


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## kewl dude

Pompeyfan keyed: "pot plants etc put into bond"

So you were growing pot aboard ship?

Greg Hayden
Vista, CA USA


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## chadburn

Mad Landsman said:


> Costa Concordia, and particularly her Captain were not 'lucky that she hit, or was near, land'.
> The fact was that she was too close to land is how she got a bloody great hole in the first place.
> That one and many more are down to 'pilotage error' first and foremost. It is a matter for great minds as to whether the loss of life was avoidable - I think it was.
> Unlike Titanic, loss of life on CC was not attributable to any lack of Life saving Apparatus or any poor equipment on board; Communications, Navigation, Engineering etc. - It was a result of how that kit was maintained and used that cost lives.
> 
> I fully go along with the oft quoted ' An accident waiting to happen' but also consider the basic H & S premise: Most accidents are the result of a poor assumption.
> 
> One such: It is assumed in the SOLAS regs that lifeboats will carry a maximum of 150 souls - with an exception which must be conditional.
> As a result everything else that goes with it assumes the figure of 150. That means that when the exception (370) becomes the norm all the other assumptions no longer apply.
> So, Is all of SOLAS really relevant to these monster ships?
> Are we arriving at the same position as Titanic etc where the ship design runs ahead of the regulations?
> 
> All it might need is a bit of 'Bad Luck' aka Pilotage Error to find out - I hope not.


From memory there was a 'communications problem' on board when the passengers made their way to the Lifeboats after she first hit the Putty and started to take a List, they were told to return to their Cabins. Seems to be some confusion as to where the Order originally came from but I would guess from the Bridge as I cannot see the Stewardess who was doing the shouting would give such an Order if not told to do so.


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## Mad Landsman

chadburn said:


> From memory there was a 'communications problem' on board when the passengers made their way to the Lifeboats after she first hit the Putty and started to take a List, they were told to return to their Cabins. Seems to be some confusion as to where the Order originally came from but I would guess from the Bridge as I cannot see the Stewardess who was doing the shouting would give such an Order if not told to do so.


There is probably still a common misconception that the 7+1 means abandon ship, leaving out all the parts in between. This belief extended all the way up to the Captain of the CC, even though one of his roles to get to that position was as a ship safety officer. 
The result of this was that the emergency alarm was not sounded in a timely fashion, i.e. when the ship first became unstable and out of control. 
As I see it, the crew, including the lady you mention, would therefore have believed that if no emergency alarm had been sounded and no PA announcement given, also probably being told by the Bridge that everything was in order, then there was not an emergency and there was not a need for passengers to muster. 
The language used on the Bridge is Italian, who knows what her language skills were... 
On the other hand she may have been so poorly trained that she did not know how to handle the situation anyway. 
Many passengers took it upon themselves to muster because they realised that, even without an alarm, something was significantly amiss - but probably only those who had previously attended a drill earlier in the cruise.


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## TommyRob

I have always thought the lifeboat system for pax a pretty outdated affair that could only make sense if a stricken ship were upright and settling gently into a calm sea. Given a blank sheet of paper and a brief to save maximum numbers in any scenario surely a designer would come up with float away modules or some such?


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## john g

Going back to the Costa Concordia incident , If I remember rightly the life boats were able to return to the vessel to pick up more passengers , big difference if she had drifted away from land


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## chadburn

TommyRob said:


> I have always thought the lifeboat system for pax a pretty outdated affair that could only make sense if a stricken ship were upright and settling gently into a calm sea. Given a blank sheet of paper and a brief to save maximum numbers in any scenario surely a designer would come up with float away modules or some such?


I have seen a photograph possibly on this site of a smaller Pax which had its Lifeboats removed and appeared to rely on inflatable life rafts, the R.N. do not count the ships boats as part of the life saving complement, at one time Carley Floats and anything drifting around would do. Now inflatable life rafts and anything drifting around.


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## Garethed

Having just done a cruise on the new Ovation of the Seas - 4000 passengers, 2000 crew approx. - I can say I felt a little bit uncomfortable with the shear size of the ship. It was like being at sea in a big block of flats.
I served on reefers and container ships in the 60's and 70's and for the first time I was slightly apprehensive about being on a ship.
These leviathans have been around a long time now and through some major storms, so they are safe from that point of view. However, getting 6000 people off quickly in an emergency is another matter.


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## Pompeyfan

Garethed

You may have been aboard Ovation of the Seas when I photographed her passing Cowes as posted in the gallery. http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/887361/title/ovation-of-the-seas/cat/520


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## chadburn

Garethed, I can understand that feeling, when I look at the sheer size of the vessels these days I wonder how many will fare well if something went seriously wrong when away from the coastal waters especially if there are disabled aboard.


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## Garethed

Pompeyfan said:


> Garethed
> 
> You may have been aboard Ovation of the Seas when I photographed her passing Cowes as posted in the gallery. http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/887361/title/ovation-of-the-seas/cat/520


Thanks Pompeyfan - great photo. I would have been aboard, but it didn't bring back any seafaring memories!


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## Shipbuilder

Just seen the review of _Harmony of the Seas_ in today's Daily Mail!
6,780 passengers, 2,100 crew, total 8,880! Counted 14 lifeboats!
I know all about the oft repeated "liferafts, lifejackets, blah, blah, blah!"
But it doesn't look right to me! Is it a "flexirule," to allow this monster to go to sea with so many onboard?
I would not sail in one even if you paid me!
Give me a dandy little ship like the old _RMS St. Helena_, 3,150 gross tons, 300 feet long and 76 passengers. When we caught fire on Halloween Night, 1984, in the South Atlantic, all the passengers, and most of the crew were in the lifeboats, lowered to the embarkation deck within a few minutes. They did not need to be lowered fully as CO2 smothered the engineroom fire, but it proved the evacuation procedure was 100%! 
Bob


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## tiachapman

a big disaster in the making hope im wrong but it looks as if it on the cards another danger is taken over by is fanatics they would have a field day, hope this event has been taken in to consideration where would you run to. no not for me too dyed in the wool.


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## Binnacle

When RMS Queen Mary Sailed on her maiden voyage in 1936 she had a grand piano and half the lifeboat capacity per person of a humble tramp steamer.


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## stehogg

*Harmony of the seas*

I guess at the end of the day like most things it all comes down to money.Cruise lines will only spend what they "legally" have to.My brother and sister in law have done a lot of cruising over the last few years and often comment on the number of very elderly and wheelchair bound passengers,non of whom should be deprived in any shape or form of a cruising holiday.However the problem may one day arrive when a serious situation on one of these huge vessels occurs,and as previous members have pointed out the difficulty in disembarking thousands of passengers,imagine attempting this in bad weather,we have all seen how difficult it can be,ie pilots joining and leaving vessels in rough seas.


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## Tmac1720

Maybe it's just the old fart in me but I find her ugly (Sad) where are the aesthetics of ship design? more like a floating block of flats these days (Smoke) Sure I understand the need for commercialism to maximise revenue but do they really have to be so hard on the eye?


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## Shipbuilder

When disaster strikes on these self-propelled accommodation barges, it can be pretty dreadful even when no-one is killed or injured! This is happening at the moment, read the text as well as watch the video!
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Stranded-Cruise-Passengers-Facing-Dirty-Conditions-190908651.html
Bob


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## Mad Landsman

Shipbuilder said:


> When disaster strikes on these self-propelled accommodation barges, it can be pretty dreadful even when no-one is killed or injured! This is happening at the moment, read the text as well as watch the video!
> http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Stranded-Cruise-Passengers-Facing-Dirty-Conditions-190908651.html
> Bob


Happening at the moment ? 
The moment being three years ago.....

Carnival Triumph is still afloat and cruising.


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## Shipbuilder

Yes, correct! I was given mis-information and didn't look close enough! Still relevant though!
Bob


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## BobClay

@ Binnacle #32

I read somewhere that the Queen Mary carried an entire infantry division during World War 2. Now the size of a division can vary but is usually between 10 and 15,000.
She relied on her high speed to dodge the U Boats. Of course in total war safety concerns have to be re-adjusted, but that's a hell of a lot of passengers. Difficult to see how any functioning drills could be carried out under those cir***stances but that is one epic mad dash across the Atlantic if it's true.


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## Donald McGhee

As in all structures the cruise liner has reached the stage where it seems that there is a fair bit of competition as to who can build the biggest! We see bridges and buildings reaching the limits of technology and, as far as skyscrapers are concerned, they are now, literally, the height of nonsense. Cruise ships are going down the same track.

The cruise ship industry is absolutely booming and has had a huge resurrection after the aeroplane dominated the taking of folk to holiday destinations for decades. The cruise ships are now the destinations and supply all that certain holidaymakers could ever need as far as shops, restaurants and luxury accommodation are concerned.
Not for me though. Give me peace and quiet, no crowds and scenery, be it country or seaside; these ships positively scare me.


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## Stephen J. Card

BobClay said:


> @ Binnacle #32
> 
> I read somewhere that the Queen Mary carried an entire infantry division during World War 2. Now the size of a division can vary but is usually between 10 and 15,000.
> She relied on her high speed to dodge the U Boats. Of course in total war safety concerns have to be re-adjusted, but that's a hell of a lot of passengers. Difficult to see how any functioning drills could be carried out under those cir***stances but that is one epic mad dash across the Atlantic if it's true.



QM's highest numbers on board was 16,683 plus 1,174 crew.

Capacity of boats... about 2,000.

Drills? Whatever they were going to do they were going to be in deep kak. This was 'normal' when doing transatlantic runs NY to Gourock. 4 and 1/2 days crossing.


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## BobClay

Thanks Stephen. I find that utterly amazing. Of course it was a time of Total war, but what a chance to take. Can you imagine the stakes ? One on target torpedo could have produced a catastrophe.
I can't help but admire those involved, and let's be honest, mostly unrecognised other than a footnote (not un-typical of the Merchant Navy's role in the greatest conflict in human history (so far.))
Much appreciated.


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## TonyAllen

since my wife passed away .. my son has being suggesting to me to take a cruise.I look at them and think oh no not for me I may as well go shopping at liverpool 1 if I want to mix with that many people ..after 5 years on the blueies
if it was a merchant ship yes mybe a trip to singapore ..that would be very nice


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## frangio

My father was in the 8th Army during the war. I remember him telling me that the liner he went to Africa in had her lifeboats swept away by waves in the Irish Sea. Apparently the boats were kept swung out to allow quick evacuation if she was torpedoed. So they went all the way to Africa with no boats!


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## Mariner44

*Cargo ship cruises*



TonyAllen said:


> since my wife passed away .. my son has being suggesting to me to take a cruise.I look at them and think oh no not for me I may as well go shopping at liverpool 1 if I want to mix with that many people ..after 5 years on the blueies
> if it was a merchant ship yes mybe a trip to singapore ..that would be very nice


You may like to look at this website. http://cargoshipvoyages.com/ There are other similar sites, too.


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## Binnacle

Garethed said:


> Having just done a cruise on the new Ovation of the Seas - 4000 passengers, 2000 crew approx. - I can say I felt a little bit uncomfortable with the shear size of the ship. It was like being at sea in a big block of flats.
> I served on reefers and container ships in the 60's and 70's and for the first time I was slightly apprehensive about being on a ship.
> These leviathans have been around a long time now and through some major storms, so they are safe from that point of view. However, getting 6000 people off quickly in an emergency is another matter.


Garethed 
I am wondering on these multi deck ships what is the drill concerning the use of passenger lifts in an emergency ?. Ashore, lifts usually have warning signs not to use in the event of fire. Did you notice any such signs on this ship when you sailed on her ? The mind boggles about confusion aboard.


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## Mad Landsman

Binnacle said:


> I am wondering on these multi deck ships what is the drill concerning the use of passenger lifts in an emergency ?. Ashore, lifts usually have warning signs not to use in the event of fire. Did you notice any such signs on this ship when you sailed on her ? The mind boggles about confusion aboard.


Maybe I can help here: 

During passenger emergency drills it is emphasised, before the drill and during the drill, that lifts should not be used to reach one's muster/assembly station. 
During any drill, and as part of the procedure which would be followed in an actual emergency, members of crew have allocated positions in order to facilitate and direct passengers. There should always someone (or two) next to each lift access point to prevent use. 
Most, probably all, modern cruise ships have low level track lighting on all stairways and corridors. Some have colour coded lighting to indicate directions. There should be none near to any lift. 
The location of disabled passengers should be known and assistance will be given. Maybe a service lift would be used in these cir***stances but under supervision and with the authority of the bridge.


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## Pompeyfan

Binnacle said:


> Garethed
> I am wondering on these multi deck ships what is the drill concerning the use of passenger lifts in an emergency ?. Ashore, lifts usually have warning signs not to use in the event of fire. Did you notice any such signs on this ship when you sailed on her ? The mind boggles about confusion aboard.



Lifts are not used in an emergency or during drill on any cruise ship as far as I am aware.


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## Mariner44

Here is a you tube video/infomercial about Harmony of the Seas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0g...131315833&mc_cid=1009315ede&mc_eid=4363ff25e4


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## BobClay

You'd think having been at sea for so many years you'd have a hankering to go back if for nothing else than nostalgic reasons. But I'm afraid floating cities such as these hold no appeal for me. Not while there are lonely moors and craggy mountains still to be explored.

Having said that I am planning a trip to Lundy Island in a month or so, not exactly deep sea maybe but I've been looking at that island for several years and it's time I went and examined it.


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## Binnacle

Mariner44 said:


> Here is a you tube video/infomercial about Harmony of the Seas:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0g...131315833&mc_cid=1009315ede&mc_eid=4363ff25e4


The banner says "Designed to Thrill"

Quite.


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## janmike

Janmike

On the last cruise over Xmas I found the greatest difficulty is understanding how all the disabled people would be able to get to the lifeboats as the lifts would be out of action and wheelchairs would be useless going up on the staircases. How much time would be taken to negotiate xteen decks?


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## Mad Landsman

janmike said:


> Janmike
> 
> On the last cruise over Xmas I found the greatest difficulty is understanding how all the disabled people would be able to get to the lifeboats as the lifts would be out of action and wheelchairs would be useless going up on the staircases. How much time would be taken to negotiate xteen decks?


See my last sentence in #46 - I have asked about this problem and while not being given a definitive answer it has been indicated that service lifts might be used under supervision and with authority from the bridge - It may vary from company to company?? 
These lifts, apparently, are not fully automatic as are the public lifts. 

Apart from QM2 most of the assembly stations on cruise ships are on lower decks, so descending seems more likely that ascending.


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## Dartskipper

BobClay said:


> You'd think having been at sea for so many years you'd have a hankering to go back if for nothing else than nostalgic reasons. But I'm afraid floating cities such as these hold no appeal for me. Not while there are lonely moors and craggy mountains still to be explored.
> 
> Having said that I am planning a trip to Lundy Island in a month or so, not exactly deep sea maybe but I've been looking at that island for several years and it's time I went and examined it.


Hi Bob,


Just picked up this thread again. If you go to Lundy, you may travel on the MS Oldenburg. Lovely little ship, and a good seaboat. Which is very reassuring if you go out in a wind against tide situation. It could get a tad lively!

Roy.


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## BobClay

Yep looks like I'm going in a couple of weeks, and I've been down to Bideford and taken a look at the Oldenburg. Now drinking rum and wearing my 'Old Sea Dog' baseball cap as part of my training.

(Jester)


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