# Listing Of Crown Princess



## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

PORT CANAVERAL -- A month-old cruise ship crawled back to port today after it suddenly lurched left and sent passengers flying, an unusual incident at sea that injured nearly 50 people, including two critically.

The Crown Princess, a 113,000-ton vessel that can hold about 3,000 passengers and 1,200 crew, was about 11 miles out of Port Canaveral and headed for New York when it listed sharply to the port side at about 3:40 p.m., authorities and witnesses said.

"There were people running for life jackets, and then afterward a lot of people hugging and crying, people looking for children," Carol O'Connell told NBC's Miami affiliate, WTVJ-TV, by cell phone. "The captain came on and made an announcement that there was a problem with the steering mechanism and the captain sounded so terrified, which led to my feeling of more panic."

O'Connell said she saw tables overturned and broken glass everywhere.

Jim Watson, spokesman for Cape Canaveral Fire Department, said the incident critically injured at least two people, both of whom would were being evacuated by helicopter to hospitals. Fourteen others had serious injuries and 30 more were minor, he said.

A child was among the most seriously hurt, he said, but he didn't have details on the victim's age or gender.

Brevard County Sheriff Jack Parker said passengers were being urged to stay on the ship overnight as a "floating hotel'' and to disembark todaywed. He said the cruise had been cancelled and that the boat would probably be in port three to four days for an investigation.

The ship was on a nine-day western Caribbean cruise, sailing roundtrip out of New York, with calls at Grand Turk, Ocho Rios and Grand Cayman. Port Canaveral was the last port of call before returning to New York. It was christened last month in New York.

The ship is owned by Princess Cruises, one of 12 brands operated by Miami-based Carnival Corp. The company said the ship was safe said that it was investigating the cause of the list.

Julie Benson spokeswoman for Princess Cruise Lines said some passengers suffered "fractures, bruises" and "some more serious than that."

She said the company is still looking into the cause of the listing, including a possible problem with the steering or other mechanics of the ship.

"We don't know the answer to that yet," she said. "We're looking at a number of issues, that being one of them."

At least 14 ambulances, eight fire trucks and three medivac helicopters stood by as the ship slowly entered port at about 7 p.m.

U.S. Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Chris O'Neil the Coast Guard got an SOS from the ship about 4 p.m. reporting several injuries. None of the injuries were life threatening or required anyone to be airlifted from the ship, he said.

Coast Guard safety inspectors examined the boat before they cleared it at 6 p.m. to enter Port Canaveral to dock. O'Neil said the ship had to be deemed safe before it was allowed to dock.

Safety inspectors will determine what happened, and they will have to be satisfied there are no mechanical problems before the ship will be allowed to set sail again, he said. The Coast Guard will also conduct an investigation, he said.

Christine Fischer, spokeswoman for the International Council of Cruise Lines, said a listing problem is unusual for a cruise ship.

"It's not very common," she said. "This is an isolated incident."

Benson agreed that extreme listing is rare, but she said her company has experienced the problem before. She didn't immediately have details but said it resulted in some minor injuries.


----------



## Knut (Feb 22, 2006)

*Strange*

The upper decks were flooded, while the lower decks remained dry apparently according to the reports on BBC. Was the ship in the Bermuda Triangle at the time?
Knut.


----------



## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

CNN report in Burntisland's thread.

Cheers.

Rushie


----------



## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

Interesting comments by Christine Fischer of the International Council of Cruise Lines - "It's not very common. This is an isolated incident." One wonders which part the non-maritime public are expected to beleive!

On the subject of problems with passenger ships does anyone keep stats on problems as this would seem to me to be an interesting project or hobby? The P&O group alone have suffered a serious & fatal fire, a "mystery isolated" listing, a couple of week's of not being able to operate the prime movers & several cases of D&V within the last few years. Then we have had Cunard with a chequered history to the classic QE2 including serious boiler problems which led to re-engining. a couple of groundings and the vane wheel fiasco. The unlovely QM2 has so far had only a damaged pod & a crew murder.

The above is only a scratching of the surface: an informed list of all SNAFUs during a ship's life would be interesting if not mind-boggling. Some-one must know.


----------



## Paul UK (Jun 13, 2005)

I assume the flooding to the top decks was from the swimming pools so the list must have been quite large.

Paul


----------



## Paul UK (Jun 13, 2005)

Tony Breach said:


> Interesting comments by Christine Fischer of the International Council of Cruise Lines - "It's not very common. This is an isolated incident." One wonders which part the non-maritime public are expected to beleive!
> 
> On the subject of problems with passenger ships does anyone keep stats on problems as this would seem to me to be an interesting project or hobby? The P&O group alone have suffered a serious & fatal fire, a "mystery isolated" listing, a couple of week's of not being able to operate the prime movers & several cases of D&V within the last few years. Then we have had Cunard with a chequered history to the classic QE2 including serious boiler problems which led to re-engining. a couple of groundings and the vane wheel fiasco. The unlovely QM2 has so far had only a damaged pod & a crew murder.
> 
> The above is only a scratching of the surface: an informed list of all SNAFUs during a ship's life would be interesting if not mind-boggling. Some-one must know.


Tony try this website it will cause sleepless nights
Paul http://www.internationalcruisevictims.org/


----------



## Paul UK (Jun 13, 2005)

Hi Everybody See this site for Pics of Crown Princess it is reported that she did a 180 degree turn in a couple of hundred yards and sent pool water down the stairs.

http://www.wesh.com/news/9537321/detail.html?taf=orl 

Paul


----------



## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

Remember previous posts about the swimming pool effects.

From todays news paper.

Daus, of Brooklyn, N.Y., said several of the decks were flooded and the elevators were not working. "The water came gushing out of the pool like a mini tsunami," he said. "It was really scary. People who were in the pool were shoved out."


----------



## newda898 (Jun 23, 2005)

Gosh, sounds pretty scary to me. (EEK) 

I can imagine the horror and panic as the people started realising that the ship kept leaning.


----------



## Piero43 (Jun 17, 2005)

Paul UK said:


> ...it is reported that she did a 180 degree turn in a couple of hundred yards and sent pool water down the stairs.
> 
> http://www.wesh.com/news/9537321/detail.html?taf=orl
> 
> Paul


200 yards of turning radius? That should mean full speed, wheel hard over, and manouvering with both propellers and bow thrusters... and I don't know if it's enough.
If this information comes from a passenger, I believe that it's the effect of his chock, and it's hardly believable.
P.


----------



## cymruman (Jan 15, 2006)

seems a bit exaggerated, unless of course they used the handbrake.


----------



## Paul UK (Jun 13, 2005)

Must have been pretty hard turn to tip water out of the pools.

Paul


----------



## newda898 (Jun 23, 2005)

I like what the CEO of the Port Canaveral Authority says in the follow-up article here:

http://www.wesh.com/news/9540439/detail.html



> "I think that ships are complicated creatures, much like an airplane


What does he mean by "think" - Does he not know the business that he is in?


----------



## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

must of been the bermuda triangla,lurched left,rolled right,?next story will be they pooped one,well a lot of the passengers/guests pooped one (Thumb)


----------



## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

passengers/guest photo of toilet


----------



## billyboy (Jul 6, 2005)

*The roll effect!*



dom said:


> passengers/guest photo of toilet


Picture looks abot right DOM...LOL
(Thumb)


----------



## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

If you read my posts, you will note that I have consistantly said that these giant cruise ships list like mad when turning. You only have to watch them turn at Cowes inward or outbound from Southampton. The taller they are, the more they list. When Arcadia first went into Southampton, she leaned right over when turning at Cowes, more so than Oriana or Aurora. Then when I was aboard both Oriana and Aurora, I filmed the list as we turned at Cowes on my camcorder. And you can see how much she listed in Noway in my gallery when making a simple turn. Canberra never leaned over when turning at Cowes like these bigger ships. I was steering her once and would have panicked had she gone over. I did that once with Arcadia by mistake doing a full turn at speed. She went over, but only because I was turning the wheel right around thinking it would right her!. So when more experienced, I was always mindful when turning.

We are told they these monsters are stable, but it only takes a small accident whatever happened to Crown Princess to cause them to list enough to cause injury. I for one am therefore not in the least bit surprised that this happened because I have been warning about it for so long. I have also warned that due to a different type of passenger not familiar with life aboard a ship that they would panic if there was a problem because there is not enough information in my opinion for non-maritime people having sailed on modern cruise ships as passenger, and the 'line voyage' era as crew. The difference is now so great, it is only a matter of time before there is a serious incident. 

Few have agreed with me so far. Well, all I can say is watch this space because Corwn Princess will not be the last accident of its type to happen or last accident of any type. The seas we sailed on are the same dangerous oceans they always were. If cruise ships are to become even bigger, and even more of the attraction than the ports of call, it is surely only a matter of time before one of these floating holiday centres has a serious problem with large loss of life. If you play with fire, you will be burnt. The same goes for the world oceans. If people sail on them without even the basic knowledge of them, or the vessel they are sailing on whether it be a giant cruise ship or a small boat, they could be in deep trouble.

I have always maintained that with a different type of passenger aboard cruise ships nowadays who do not even know basic shipboard terminology that it only a matter of time before there is a serious incident. The information at passenger drill goes in one ear and out of the other for some people who don't even know the question let alone the answer not knowing their port from their starboard. That is why I have suggested basic terminology be printed on the back of cabin doors next to other safety information, but it always reaches deaf ears. The short drill is also seen as a big joke and part of the holiday fun to some passengers as they bump into each other with their life jackets heading for a public room that is packed out. On Oriana in May, I made it into th back of the public room having been swiped around the head a few times with a lifekacket. Then the officer in the middle of the room praised those in front for coming early. Yes, you would in a real emergency wouldn't you?!. I told this clown afterwards what I thought of his remarks!.

This Friday, schools in the UK begin 7 weeks of holiday. There will be tragedies along our coastlines this summer just like summers before. People never learn from the fate of others. Every year, children and adults die because they have no knowledge of the sea, local tides and currents or how to sail a boat or the rules of the sea be it a dinghy, yacht, jet ski or whatever. They don't listen to weather forecasts or listen to any advice. Their excuse is that they are on holiday, and don't want it spoiled by rules and regulations. 

Peope will die this summer in the UK through nobodies fault than their own, and all because they throw caution to the wind just because they are on holiday whether it be eating like a pig, or invloved in outdoor leisure without making plans. How do I know all this. Well, I performed autopsies on them every year making exactly the same mistakes, never learning from those the year before despite our best efforts to educate people. In fact, it has already happened. I am still in contact with my former colleagues both locally and countywide. The 'Holidaymaker Syndrome' as I called it is into full swing again and will get even worse from the weekend.

I know that I have strayed from listing ships, but my point is that I have foreseen all this due to being at sea, and latterly in the Post Mortem Room. I can only tell of what I have seen with my own eyes, and how so many people died needlessly. If people don't listen to safety advice, or don't want to listen that is up to them. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I once suggested(with tongue in cheek) to the head of tourism here on the island who was alarmed at the amount of holidaymakers dying by accident or whatever that it would make life easier for himself and his staff when dealing with grieving relatives if they gave all holidaymakers a list of Funeral Directors when they got off the ferry. He did not seem too keen?!!. David


----------



## Peter4447 (Jan 26, 2006)

Moving briefly off the subject, I have got to agree totally with Pompeyfan and his comments in regard to the holidaymaker problem. Spent a bit of time over the last couple of weeks, in the glorious weather, at Shaldon (opposite side to Teignmouth) and as anyone knows who is familiar with the port, the tides are very strong indeed. But as always its the same old story, unload the boat off the trailer, don't bother with lifejackets and it will be all OK because we've got a mobile phone, if we need help. I am NOT putting everybody in the same box with this comment but you do see it happening over and over again.
I do not know the Harbour Master at Teignmouth personally but I do take my hat off to him, as he spends hours cruising around in his RIB, keeping a close eye on all that goes on and advising of the dangers when he spots swimmers, anglers or whoever straying into dangerous waters - and heaven help the speedboat merchants if they exceed the harbour speed limit!
Peter4447
(*))


----------



## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

I wonder if one of the stabilisers was accidentally deployed..
As for the comments of Christine Fischer, spokeswoman for the International Council of Cruise Lines, 
"It's not very common," she said. "This is an isolated incident."
So was the Titanic.


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

Whey hey hinney me bairn, David you must be a barrel of laughs to go on holiday with, I guess you won't need a carnation behind your left ear when you meet up with the group in Portsmouth in September, you'll be the one with the life jacket on clutching your 1973 volume of the ships lifeboat manual. (*))


----------



## john g (Feb 22, 2005)

You can mess about with calculations and metacentric heights the fact is these vessels are top heavy, fine in good weather ,try winter north atlantic well they wouldn't risk it. I would agree there was something amiss with the stabilisers and bearing in mind she is only a recent build I would guess the automatic system maybe the cause. It will be interesting if the true facts come out. And as you guys say people on holiday would get very upset.


----------



## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

*Full Power Turn*

I have been on warships on sea trials when they execute an intended full power turn. It is pretty alarming and we always broadcast a general alert before executing the turn. The unitended application of maximum rudder angle would be very alarming for everyone on board. 
There was a similar incident on a new large Channel ferry a couple of months ago. It could be an automatic pilot software glitch.
Just to repeat the many comments that I have made in previous threads, modern cruise ships are not top heavy. The Crown Princess did not roll over. A lot of cruise ships cross the North Atlantic every year for the Summer Northern European season and return to New England / Canada for the Fall Season. They are not suitable for Winter North Atlantic service, because that is not part of their design requirement. In the same way as my wife's car would not make a safe troop carrier in Iraq, nor would my wife wish to park and load a Warrior APC at a supermarket every week. (*)) 

Fred


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

I can vouch for that Fred, I have been on sea trials on Frigates were part of the trial was to build up to full speed then put the wheel hard over both ways, if a general warning was not put out first there would have been injuries, I dont think Frigates are unstable just fast with very fine lines. If the cruise ship was in automatic steering which had a fault or there was a gyro fault or failure this could easily cause the helm to go hard over and at full speed this is not recommended on any ship except in emergency.


----------



## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

I understand what you are saying Fred from a design point of view, and that ships including warships are put through turns at sea at speed on trials. But passengers and crew are being injured when these big ships list for whatever reason in calm seas on a cruise, not trials. Yes, people were injured in heavy seas on my ships, but never as a result automatic pilot software etc. We always had a man on the helm. Canberra and Arcadia never listed like this when turning unless of course either purposely or accidentialy at speed. Perhaps software is the problem, and that companies should return to a man on the helm not relying so much on modern technology?. But nothing can change the fact that Oriana listed badly in dead calm waters of the Norwegian Fjords when making a slight turn at slow speed. Some passengers next to me who were not so good on their feet stumbled. This is surely not acceptable?!. There is a picture in my gallery to prove my point. David


----------



## iain mac (Jun 13, 2005)

was on the dawn princesses delivery voyage when exactly the same thing happened mid atlantic,she suddenly went hard a stbd.only damage done on that occasion was to the expensive stock in the shops as none of it was secured.Red faces all round for the retail staff.


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

David I'm surprised the ships you sailed on didn't have or use automatic steering, on a long ocean passage it could drive the helmsman mad. All the ships I sailed on had auto steering some masters used to insist that the ship was put into hand steering once we reached the western approaches to the channel but deep sea always auto. My experience of modern auto steering is that it is excellent and I/we used to steer up the Tyne regually using the auto in fact on some ships/structures we would berth in automatic, however like all electronic equipment if it goes wrong!!!!!!!!


----------



## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Canberra did as far as I rememberJeff, not too sure about Arcadia. I only did my steering ticket on both. I did not get too technical, it was not my field of expertise. But there was always a coxswain(British)at the helm of both ships at all times day and night. There are still a few British deck crew on P&O ships, but they no longer steer the ship. David


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

The master must have been very popular with the helmsmen if the ship was fitted with Auto steering and he still insisted on a man at the wheel at all times while deep sea! Did they do a full watch or were they relieved after two hours? On ships I sailed on we always had a helmsman available if needed but the ship would be in auto under normal cir***stances when deep sea, the auto could steer a better straight line course.


----------



## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

From Florida News 13 - 

_Ship Cleared To Leave 

The cruise ship that tilted suddenly at sea this week, injuring hundreds on board, is now on its way to New York. 

The Crown Princess left Port Canaveral on Thursday.

On board are the ship’s 1,200 crew members and maritime investigators. 

They're still trying to figure out for sure what caused the list on Tuesday. The likely theory is a malfunction with the ship's auto pilot steering system.

The trip north will be a big test to see if the ship is ready to resume regular cruising. 

U.S. Coast Guard Inspector Lt. Patrick Eiland said, "If there is a problem with the steering system or any system that would lead us to believe that it is not safe to sail with any passengers, then we would not allow it but at this point we're going to let it sail and we're going to continue the investigation."

The ship is set to arrive in New York on Saturday. _ 

Rushie


----------



## mclean (Jul 30, 2005)

*Auto Pilot*

Can anyone recall when auto steering became the norm in merchant ships? I would have guessed in the mid/late 50,s but could be wrong. Colin


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

If I remember right the Old Border Boats of Common Brothers were built around 1952 to 1954 and they had Auto steering but I didnt sail on them till 1968 so it could have been added later.


----------



## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

I sailed with the automatic in the 50s,the deck crew called the thing "Iron Mike" the wake was very straight when it was on.
John


----------



## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

I will find out the answer to your question when I can Jeff by phoning one of Canberra's former Coxswains asking what shifts they did, and whether she had auto steering. They may not have been at the helm all the time, don't take that statement too litterally, but they were certainly on watch because I was in contact with the bridge a lot. All I know was that both Canberra and Arcadia had Coxswains who steered the ship, and Safety Leading Hands who worked around the decks. Before that, when we had a Bosun, they had different titles but did the same jobs. I doubt if Arcadia had auto pilot. She had a big old fashioned wheel, totally different to Canberra. David


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

Yes David we always had a helmsman on or around the bridge but deep sea he was rarely used to steer the ship I think it would have been counter productive as the auto could out steer a helmsman over a period of hours in a straight line.


----------



## Peter4447 (Jan 26, 2006)

Looking at Fred and Jeff's posts concerning warships turning at speed, I don't think it is possible to compare a frigate with eight feet of freeboard (as on the Type 14's) to these cruise liners. If you look at any ariel photograph of a Frigate at sea, you will normally find that the wake forms the letter S and this was done, quite deliberately, to get the best action shot available. When these photographs were taken the broadcast was always made first, Clear upper deck so that nobody went over the wall (although we thought it was because they didnt want the ship cluttered up with sailors watching which is why you will not see them in the photos) and The ship will be turning at speed. It always brought the moans and groans when you had to hang on below decks whilst the photos were being taken but this was done quite deliberately, wheras my understanding is that this cruise ship suddenly did this of its own free will, which is another thing entirely and which I am most certainly not competant to voice an opinion on. I suppose that to put it in perspective, the Frigate is like a motocyclist leaning over at a fast bend - the same is not supposed to happen to a furniture van!!!
Peter4447 (*))


----------



## slick (Mar 31, 2006)

*Auto Pilots*

I served my time in the Hain SS Co.Ltd in the 50's company policy was that they would not and did not fit Auto Pilots.
During pilotages including Suez and Panama Canal transits the wheel was always taken by the Apprentices.
On Southern Indian Ocean passages Geelong to Capetown Composite Great Circle and the Mate would go to sleep the piece de resistance was to get a slow round turn out of the ship before he woke up.
Yours aye,
Slick


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

I guess they didn't fit course recorders either Slick.


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

Talking about mates going to sleep reminded me of some coastal ships we used to get in the Tyne, they were fitted with a great big button which the officer of the watch had to hit at intervals of, I think 15 mins or an alarm went off, it was to stop mates nodding off, has anyone come across them? do they still fit them on some ships?


----------



## slick (Mar 31, 2006)

*Lone Watchkeepers Alarm*

Regarding the Big Red Button, in unmanned Engine Rooms the Watchkeeper had to do rounds once a watch, he informed the Bridge Watchkeeper he was setting off to do his rounds.
On his route there were check in points which had to be "punched" within set intervals, failure to do so resulted in the alarm being activated, and of course the inevitable "headless chicken act" by all!!
Yours aye,
Slick


----------



## Paedrig (Jan 7, 2006)

Jeff Egan said:


> Talking about mates going to sleep reminded me of some coastal ships we used to get in the Tyne, they were fitted with a great big button which the officer of the watch had to hit at intervals of, I think 15 mins or an alarm went off, it was to stop mates nodding off, has anyone come across them? do they still fit them on some ships?


I came across this set up on coasters run by Tower Shipping (I think) in the mid 70s marked as the White Fish Alarm.


----------



## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Jeff, I have an answer for you regarding the Coxswains(as they were called)for P&O during my era. Coxswains worked 4 hours on and 8 hours off. 12 to 4, 4 to 8 and so on. Both Canberra and Arcadia had auto pilots. I remember now that when I did my first steering lesson on Arcadia, they turned the auto pilot off. As you rightly say, the helmsman(called Coxswains with P&O during my era)were on the bridge all the time, but the ship under auto at sea. In fact, the duty Coxswain was not always on the bridge. At certain times, they went around the the ship where they had to key into a clock to confirm they had been round. I remember them coming round my hospital late at night. I was reminded tonight why they did this.

Canberra had a stop on her rudder apparently, so could not go over or do tight turns. David


----------



## Knut (Feb 22, 2006)

*Auto Pilots*

I`ve probably met Jeff while serving on the Fred.Olsen ship BORRE in the late seventies, but That was long ago.
In 65 we came down the channel on a ship built by W. Pickergill & son no.317 named ALFA in 1949. Named BODIN when I was on her. We had Browns gyro and Auto pilot. The horizon was hazy but the sun was bright and we were on Auto Pilot. On the 12-16 watch I noticed that the sun was westering a bit too fast. When checking the guro against the Standard Compass I found that we had altered course about 90 degrees and were heading towards the French coast at full speed. I called a man to the wheel, but for the rest of the voyage we could not use the Auto pilot.
The same ship in the Kiel Canal decided to lock the rudder twenty degrees port.
I was a Mate on the bridge with the pilot and was the first to react. Down three ladders from the bridge and forward to the foc`sle head, open the brake to st.b. anchor and check it once it was on the bottom.
We made it without damage to anybody or anything. We straigtened up and suddently the steering gear was Ok.


----------



## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Jeff Egan said:


> Talking about mates going to sleep reminded me of some coastal ships we used to get in the Tyne, they were fitted with a great big button which the officer of the watch had to hit at intervals of, I think 15 mins or an alarm went off, it was to stop mates nodding off, has anyone come across them? do they still fit them on some ships?


When nodding off, the best wake up call was hitting your knees against the wheelhouse forward bulkhead as your legs gave way.

No wonder I have knee problems today.


----------



## david (Oct 14, 2004)

*Listing of Crown Princess*

I know that I will probably be shot down for this, as I have never served at sea, and am only an enthusiast, but it is interesting to reflect that in publicity pics of newbuildings, the owner, and/or builder release shots of the vessels [mostly skypics], making these huge turns, with a frothy wake behind.
Why is this the norm in the media releases, and I remember that in the RINA annuals,almost every pic was like this.
If this manouvre is so dangerous, why is it featured so often?
Regards, David D.


----------



## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

the crown princess headed for home today to the port of new york from port caraveral with out passengers,follering the severe listing incident which left 240 passengers injured,with 94 being transfered to local hospitals.
the trip from florida to new york will determine whether the ship can sail on her next cruise.
3,000 passengers are expected to board in brooklyn for her next ]slightly shortened] cruise july 22nd.the cause of the steering problem wich resulted in a sudden 15deg.list to starboard while on auto-pilot has not yet been identified


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

Knut, my records show I piloted the Borre 5 times 12.3.77, 3.4.77, 9.8.77, 16.8.77 and 8.1.78. so maybe we did meet all those years ago.


----------



## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

Orlando,Fla-WESH 2 News has learned the accident involving a princess cruise ship was due to human error,not a mechanical malfunction.
two investigators from the national transportation safty board and two more from the u.s. coast guard are riding the along on the bridge of the Crown Princess a it heads back to it's home port New York.
they'er running final tests on the automatic pilot system,but a high level source has told the WESH2 I-team that human error,not the automatic pilot,caused theaccident.
a series of still pictures aboard the Crown Princess on tuesday afternoon showed the chaos and confusion on what was supposed to be the last leg of a pleasure cruise.the ship,11 miles out in the atlantic,tilted sharply to the port side
federal investigators boarded the ship,and almost immediately figured out what happened.it was'nt a computer glitch,it was'nt a mechanical problem.
a high level source,who asked not to be identified for fear of losing his or her job, told the WESH 2 I-team it was simple human error.
the public needs to know,the ship is safe.there is nothing wrong with the automatic pilot system.it was human error.they made a mistake,mistakes happen,the source said
here's how our source explains what happened.
after clearing Port Canavral,the captain set the ship's automatic pilot to head to new york.he then left the cruise liner's bridge.all standard and appropriate procedure.
as the automatic pilot found it's course back to New York, it started making a left turn,when the person in charge on the bridge -a junior officer -noticed the ships automatic pilot needle was to far to the left.
our source goes on to tell us that the junior officer "panicked",then took the ship out of automatic pilot thinking the meter was showing that the ship was turning too sharply to one side.
but instead of turning the Crown Princess back to the right,,the junior officer accidentally kept the ship in an even sharper left hand turn--almost like over-correcting in a car.
this caused the massive 113,000 ton cruise ship to list severely,tumbling pasengers,pool water and everything else on board into chaos.
the I-team contacted princess cruise lines for comment.
"we still dont know the results of the investigation.it is still ongoing as far as we know",said spokeswoman Julie Benson."i have not been told of confirned that it,what you say,is what ha happened.untill we see the formal reports[from investigators] we're not going to comment on what someone else has said"
futher,princess cruise,said it is confident that there are no mechanical or ongoing operational issues that would comprise the safty of the ship.and the coast guard confirmed that on thursday
"rest assured, the coast guard would not allow the vessle to sail if we thought it was unsafe",said Lt.patrick Eiland."if there's a problem with the steering system or if there's a problem that would lead the coast guard to belive that the vessle was not safe to sail passengers,then we would not allow it.at this point.we're going to let it sail
and in fact,the ship is now headed to New York, where 3,000 passngers will board on saturday and set out on another cruise


----------



## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

Yes David 4 on 8 off would be the norm, it was just when you said they always had the ship in hand steering I thought 4 hours of trying to keep the same course would drive the helmsman mad. Most rudders only go over to about 35 deg I think but on some small ships they go to 90 deg but only when manovoeuring at reduced speed.


----------



## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

If my memory serves me right the AB or Quartermaster on watch would rotate what they called their "trick at the wheel"while doing their 4 on and 8 off, 1 hour at the wheel,then up to the bow on look-out for an hour,then rotate again. I guess one of our ABs will give us the procedure on how they done it. I'm talking about the Tramps and tankers not passenger ships.
John


----------



## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

12-4 
1st wheel 12- 2 
farmer lookout 1-3
2nd wheel 2-4
2nd wheelman did an hours lookout12-1 relived by farmer
2nd wheel relived the 1st wheel for a smoke, stood by till 2pm then went on the wheel

1st wheelman relived the farmer on lookout till 2-15,stand by till 3,then lookout till 4
farmer relived the 2nd wheelman at 3 for a smoke, stood by till 4.
called the watch at 3-30 [7bells]called the mate at 3-45 i bell simple done it all my life
iron mike 2 in watch hour about lookout 
from my short time on passenger boats quatermaster and bridge boy on each watch,coxswains must be a new thing,generaly coxswains are in charge of a small boat eg, naval liberty boat ,although my friend did a coxswains job on p+o taking passengers ashore, the quatermaster was on watch ,gangway/bridge
on castle boats watch's were changed at sea each week,please dont ask me to explain,they rotated them back or forward,its 57yrs to many drinks under the bridge,hated passenger ships,give me an old sam boat fort,empire ,park ,T2 anyday


----------



## Trader (Jul 1, 2005)

Hi Dom,
You beat me to it with the explanation of watches. When I was in Blue Funnel we changed watches every week. On a Sunday the 2400 to 4 came off and had 16 hours off and picked up the 8 to 12 Sunday night. The other two watches had to work 4 on and 4 off to balance it out.
Talking about 7 bells do you remember 7 bell breakfasts and 7 bell dinners.?


----------



## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

On Robertsons ships we had auto pilot that worked with the magnetic compass (we did not have gyro's at that time)
We were boarded by Royal Navy Comando's when going through Rathin Island sound on route to Londonderry searching for arms.
The officer and I were in the chartroom as he examined the dioscharge books of the crew who were assembled in the mess.
A marine was in the wheelhouse heavily armed.
Next I heard was the following RN ship blowing his whistle franticly. The marie who was standing by the binnicle with his sub machine gun was causing the compass to deviate towards the gun.
We had swung round and were haeding towards the naval frigate.
Bum Puckering and the marine was not happy when I pushed him away and went to habnd steering.
Took a bit of explaining to bring the tension down.
.This was a routine inspection at the time when there was major conflict in N.I.


----------



## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

On Robertsons ships we had auto pilot that worked with the magnetic compass (we did not have gyro's at that time)
We were boarded by Royal Navy Commando's when going through Rathin Island sound on route to Londonderry searching for arms.
The officer and I were in the chartroom as he examined the dioscharge books of the crew who were assembled in the mess.
A marine was in the wheelhouse heavily armed.
Next I heard was the following RN ship blowing his whistle franticly. The marine who was standing by the binnicle with his sub machine gun was causing the compass to deviate towards the gun.
We had swung round and were heading towards the naval frigate.
Bum Puckering and the marine was not happy when I pushed him away and went to hand steering.
Took a bit of explaining to bring the tension down.
This was a routine inspection at the time when there was major conflict in N.I.


----------



## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

I used to love being farmer: one hour standby, two hours work & one hours standby - but god forbid you fell asleep in the last hour & didn't call the next watch, particularly if you were farmer on the 12 to 4 at night. I never understood why it was called "farmer" & would appreciate comments.


----------



## Gavin Gait (Aug 14, 2005)

The autopilots as fitted to any fishing boat have to have an alarm on them. Its set to 10 minute intervals now( well was as of 8 years ago the last time I was on a fishing boat ) with a big red button that you have to press to silence it. The alarm doesn't just sound on the bridge , it sounds in the galley ( fishing boats have a combined galley/mess below the bridge ) and in the sleeping accomodation so its never a good thing to wake up the rest of the crew!!

As far as I know merchant vessels probably have the same system. I know the Fishery Reseach vessel Scotia ( both the old one and the new one ) have this system with the alarms being on the bridge and in the captains / 1st mates cabins.

Davie


----------



## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

seven bells,1120 dinner/lunch 4-8 seven bells 0720 breakfast,
farmer,some say its a throw back to when they had livestock on board, same as peggy,an old seaman who had lost a leg -pegleg
some ships with iron mike,depending on the skipper had it on in the daylight hours so watch could work on deck, then took it of at night,also i remember the windsor,first ship i was on with a seat at the wheel,luxury,another ship had a small donky engine for the steering wheel,mag.compass in front of you steering wheel behind you,worked like a tiller and 1/4 points as well, the r.f.a.olna,the old one had six compass's,modern ships,good accomadation,good grub,time off,but something missing,maybe it's the month on the jap coast or the b.a. run ,living in the past,send the peggy along to the ch.stwd for more butter and tea


----------



## mclean (Jul 30, 2005)

*Farmer*



Tony Breach said:


> I used to love being farmer: one hour standby, two hours work & one hours standby - but god forbid you fell asleep in the last hour & didn't call the next watch, particularly if you were farmer on the 12 to 4 at night. I never understood why it was called "farmer" & would appreciate comments.


The term farmer goes back to the livestock carrying vessels, and the men who looked after them were called farmers. They were not seamen and therefore could not take a turn at the wheel. Regards Colin


----------



## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

Hi Colin & many thanks for your input.

On my first vessel, BRISTOL CITY in 1960, the master (Commodore) insisted in having
3 men in each watch even though the ship was new in 1958 & fully equipped with gyro compass & iron mike. Fine during the day as we all worked our watches on deck but at night we had 1st wheel, 2nd wheel & farmer. The mates were up-to-date & did not require any hand steering so the wheelmen kept their watch on the bridge wing while the lookout duties of the wheelmen & farmer were kept on the monkey island in the ocean and/or on the focsle in coastal waters or in fog. A total waste of manpower. 

My second vessel was the older (better) GLOUCESTER CITY of 1954 with a steam up-&-downer. A crude telemotor on the centreline with a magnetic compass & necessary hydraulic valves etc. A gyro repeater was sited to starboard of the magnetic & as there was no iron mike she was hand steered 24 hours a day. I was on board for over 18 months & always on watch so I spent a lot of time at the wheel: the result of this is that even now I find it easy to turn my head to the right but it aint easy to turn it to the left. Maybe I could sue if the company still existed??? 

Later sailed on Weir's BEAVERBANK which had no gyro but an Arkas autopilot controlled by the magnetic steering compass. She steered like a dream the only problems being the seacunnies who stored their knives, chipping hammers & scrapers under the grating behind the wheel which resulted in large & unpredictable deviations.

Whatever; it beats the hell out of a one month old P&O cruise ship rolling on her beam ends with over 3,000 souls on board just because of "steering problems".

I'll just go feed the livestock, give em a bucket of rainwater from the upper deck scuppers & a salt lick, call the watch & then get my head down. Keep her steady.

Tony.


----------



## Andy-D (Jul 30, 2006)

passenger John Fay said. "The entire ship listed to port, everything went crashing to the port side of the ship, to the right side of the ship.

RELIABLE WITNESS?


----------

