# Ex Royal Navy lifeboat



## Jonesy

Hi folks,

Its a bit of a longshot this but a friend of mine owns this which he believes to be built upon a lifeboat off a Royal Navy ship and he is trying to trace her origins.

The original lifeboat is carvel built and is the part below the lip running fore and aft.

The only information I have is that when sanding back for new paint he has found the following cut into it reading top to bottom 0x0x3, cc411, PRS 41, ACH, 12-42.

Not much to go on I know, but there maybe somebody on here who could shed some light?

I live in expectation


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## AncientBrit

From what small part of the hull is visible, it has the form of the RN motor cutters that were used on the bigger warships, cruisers and up. Like I say, it isnt much to go on and it was a long time ago that I saw them, in the early 50's. A side view and a shot of the stern would help.


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## Jonesy

Thanks Bob,

That's a useful start. I'm hoping to get up there and see it soon (Goldhanger, Essex) and take some pictures and see what more info I can glean.

Cheers
John


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## Splinter

AncientBrit said:


> From what small part of the hull is visible, it has the form of the RN motor cutters that were used on the bigger warships, cruisers and up. Like I say, it isnt much to go on and it was a long time ago that I saw them, in the early 50's. A side view and a shot of the stern would help.


A.B

I'm sure you'll find the Cutter like the whaler was clinker built.


Ray.


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## AncientBrit

Splinter said:


> A.B
> 
> I'm sure you'll find the Cutter like the whaler was clinker built.
> 
> 
> Ray.


Ray, Not the ones I am thinking of, I believe you are thinking of the ones with the "bucket" steering system (the real name escapes me). The ones I had in mind were used on carriers and the like in the 50's as liberty boats.
I'll look thru the gallery and see if I can find an example.


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## McCloggie

Jonesy;

Have you tried the British Military Powerboat Trust?

Thier website is under www.bmpt.org.

This is quite an intersting site and contains details of everything from MTBs and Defence Launches for sale to people restoring ships' boats and details of restored historical craft.

May be of some use.

McC


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## AncientBrit

At 3:30am I decided I'd look at one more page of the gallery before I fell into bed.
Heres the guys I had in mind and while wandering thru the gallery, I even remembered that they were called pinnaces. The two darker hued boats in the middle shot are pinnaces, there are also smaller motor cutters in photo as well. 
Ray, the cutter used for rowing/sailing was clinker built. However the 'Motor" cutter and the pinnace were both carvel built.
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/133468
And so to bed! Its already noon in the UK.


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## Splinter

AncientBrit said:


> Ray, Not the ones I am thinking of, I believe you are thinking of the ones with the "bucket" steering system (the real name escapes me). The ones I had in mind were used on carriers and the like in the 50's as liberty boats.
> I'll look thru the gallery and see if I can find an example.


 A.B.

Sorry mate, I worked in a naval boathouse in the 50s repairing everything from the royal barges to 50ft harbour launches, the cutter was 32ft clinker, but as you said there was a carvel launch which used the Kitchener gear to go astern, you spun a wheel, this moved a shield from the front of the prop to the rear, which reversed the thrust.
Looking at my trade notes today, the cutter is listed as a 32ft sailing cutter, and lists what wood each part should be made of.


Ray.


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## stores

hi from stores, 27 and 32 cutters were clinker built,local boatyard had a contract with MOD , my first boat was built alongside 27 foot cutters at johnson sons and jago leigh on sea essex, 27 footers had twin cylinder enfield air cooled diesels, 36 foot harbour launches were double diagonal, i had a 27 foot ex naval motor whale boat that was double diagonal with a dorman diesel engine, used by navy befor the enfields, not to be confused with the 27 foot 3 in 1 whaler that was clinker, later whaler was glassfiber, and only motor, was one for sale on ebay last week, a 36 foot harbour is still being used at sandwich kent for commercial river trips, they had kitchener rudders,


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## stores

*boat*



Jonesy said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Its a bit of a longshot this but a friend of mine owns this which he believes to be built upon a lifeboat off a Royal Navy ship and he is trying to trace her origins.
> 
> The original lifeboat is carvel built and is the part below the lip running fore and aft.
> 
> The only information I have is that when sanding back for new paint he has found the following cut into it reading top to bottom 0x0x3, cc411, PRS 41, ACH, 12-42.
> 
> Not much to go on I know, but there maybe somebody on here who could shed some light?
> 
> I live in expectation


 just another quick note from stores, after studying the picture enlarged, your boat is double diagonal built, planked with 2 skins the inner the opposite diagonal to the outer, normal carvel is planked from bow to stern, what is the length of her, ? i think prs is persons carried, 12/42 is when built dec 1942, stores


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## Jonesy

Stores, Splinter, McCloggie and AncientBrit.

Thanks one and all for your interest and already useful comments. I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this one, I'll definitely have to go and have a look at her for myself to see what clues may be available and get more pictures.

I've yet to try the British Military Powerboat Trust (which has changed its name to the British Military Power Boat Team) but will do so once I get more photos.

Thanks for your help so far and I'll let you know what else I find.

What a great site this is!

Regards

John J.


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## Lancastrian

Cutters were 25, (centre pic behind whaler) 32, (left pic) and 36 feet,(right pic) so knowing the length would be a good start. Whalers were 27.
By the way its KITCHEN rudder not Kitchener.


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## AncientBrit

Lancastrian said:


> Cutters were 25, (centre pic behind whaler) 32, (left pic) and 36 feet,(right pic) so knowing the length would be a good start. Whalers were 27.
> By the way its KITCHEN rudder not Kitchener.


So many years, so many dead brain cells!(Hippy) I had forgotten about the 25ft ships motor boat. My money, if it is indeed ex RN would be on the 36 ft launch/pinnace, you can see from that photo, they really were hulking brutes of boats and there just wasn't room to carry them on anything below a capitol ship.


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## medway

*Royal Navay 25 foot motor cutter*

Just posted some shots of the preserved one down at Chatham Dockyard.



http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/data/511/thumbs/25_foot_motor_cutter_01.jpg

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/data/511/thumbs/25_foot_motor_cutter_02.jpg

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/data/511/thumbs/25_foot_motor_cutter_03.jpg

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/data/511/thumbs/25_foot_motor_cutter_04.jpg


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## Splinter

Lancastrian said:


> Cutters were 25, (centre pic behind whaler) 32, (left pic) and 36 feet,(right pic) so knowing the length would be a good start. Whalers were 27.
> By the way its KITCHEN rudder not Kitchener.




Yes a Kitchen rudder, but often described by RN officers and seaman as Kitchener, go to site below




http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?p=31676


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## Lancastrian

Splinter said:


> Yes a Kitchen rudder, but often described by RN officers and seaman as Kitchener, go to site below
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?p=31676


Yes its a common mistake but that's no excuse for repeating it !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_rudder


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## stores

*kitchen rudder and 25 foot motor cutter*



Lancastrian said:


> Yes its a common mistake but that's no excuse for repeating it !
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_rudder


hi to everyone from stores, i stand corrected, kitchen rudder is correct, also 25 foot is the correct length for the smaller motor cutter, got confused with the whaler, apologies to all, STORES.


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## Splinter

Lancastrian said:


> Yes its a common mistake but that's no excuse for repeating it !
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_rudder



No mistake and no excuse, that's what it's called by many, and a lot of those are further up the tree than you.


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## Lancastrian

Splinter said:


> No mistake and no excuse, that's what it's called by many, and a lot of those are further up the tree than you.


Further up what tree?


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## Splinter

Lancastrian said:


> Further up what tree?




Of Naval Knowledge.


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## AncientBrit

I think the use of Kitchener came about in the RN when one was refering to a boat/launch/cutter/pinnace/whatever that was controlled by the use of the Kitchen steering system. eg it was a 36ft Kitchener pinnace, painted a delicate shade of violet and crewed by ex RFA stewards.(Jester)


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## Splinter

AncientBrit said:


> I think the use of Kitchener came about in the RN when one was refering to a boat/launch/cutter/pinnace/whatever that was controlled by the use of the Kitchen steering system. eg it was a 36ft Kitchener pinnace, painted a delicate shade of violet and crewed by ex RFA stewards.(Jester)




I'll go with that A.B.


Ray.


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## Lancastrian

AncientBrit said:


> I think the use of Kitchener came about in the RN when one was refering to a boat/launch/cutter/pinnace/whatever that was controlled by the use of the Kitchen steering system. eg it was a 36ft Kitchener pinnace, painted a delicate shade of violet and crewed by ex RFA stewards.(Jester)


Weak joke. I just think its a pity that some people don't remember the man who invented that brilliant piece of kit by his proper name!


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## Jonesy

Here's another picture of the boat. Also, whilst rubbing the paint down my friend has found the marking 'ACC411'. Could this stand for aircraft carrier? He thinks the wood looks a bit light for mahogany so may be teak?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Regards

John


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## aholtham

This is probably a merchant navy lifeboat as the numbering system does not resemble that used by the MOD. The MOD introduced a new system of numbering boats in 1935, thus the first boat was 3501. 35 being the year it was ordered and 01 the number of the boat ordered that year. Prior to 1935 numerous numbering sytems were in force.

If it was a sailing boat then the numbering system would have been 01/35 for the same boat for example. Admiralty MOD boats would have had the footage in feet and type ie 27FT MW with a pussers arrowhead. Then the number ie 3501.

Some boats did have the port which they may have been constructed or operated from ie CH was Chatham.

Additionally boats built for ships abroad ie in Canada had a different numbering syatem mostly beginning with 25. Why I cannot answer that query.

Usually I can identify most boats from the beam or have records which show their identity.

I hope this helps. A picture showing her lines on the beam and stern would be helpful in sorting out her identity.

Regards Tony Holtham, British Armed Forces Historical Small Craft Research Group


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## AncientBrit

27ft Whaler was the only RN boat that was tapered to peak for and aft.
I would agree with the posting above that states this is most likely MN lifeboat.


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## Splinter

AncientBrit said:


> 27ft Whaler was the only RN boat that was tapered to peak for and aft.
> I would agree with the posting above that states this is most likely MN lifeboat.


 
Dead right, the 27ft whaler was the only RN boat without a transom.


Ray.


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## AJWILSON

Kitchen Rudder Gear.
I’m rather late coming to this thread, but as one who used the gear, and thought it was marvellous. I hope I can put it all together. In the 1950s the RN used three boats fitted with KR gear: there was the 36 foot Pinnace, double-diagonal built, with the steering gear at the stern. It usually had three solid, but removable, canopies: this was used, as has been said, as the ship’s work-horse in cruisers and above. There was the 35 foot Motor-Cutter, clinker-built, with three canvas canopies on collapsible frames. Both these had a single screw and a 4 cylinder Dorman diesel engine. The pinnace, I am 99% sure, had the double wheel form of Kitchen gear, one inside the other, while the cutter had a tiller and wheel.
The third type of boat was the Slow Motor Boat (as opposed to the Fast Motor Boat, a twin-screw, planing hull job with conventional rudder steering). The Slow Motor Boat was more like the old steam picket boat with a fixed cabin fore and aft, and the steering position (double Kitchen wheel) amidships. It was also double diagonal built, single screw, but I don’t know what the engine was – probably the Dorman, but I could easily be wrong.
For those who never knew the gear, it took the form of two “buckets”, mounted each side of the screw, which always went ahead, and at a constant speed. The buckets (they were more like two shallow bowls, were controlled by a screw turned by a handle on the tiller (in the case of the motor cutter. When they were fully open, the thrust from the crew was unhindered, and you went “Full ahead”. If you closed the buckets behind the propeller, then the thrust was diverted to push the boat backwards, and you got “Full astern”. You could get any position in between, including “neutral”, when the thrust escaping through the gap between the buckets balanced the astern thrust. (If you were, say, alongside for any length of time, then you could put the engine in neutral, and stop the screw.)
You altered course in the usual way by pulling the tiller over, or winding the wheel over, which had the effect of altering the orientation of the buckets, so that the thrust (ahead or astern) was diverted to one side or the other. As a result, the boat could be made to turn, more or less on-the-spot, making them – the cutter in particular – most handy boats (I loved mine!)
In the Illustrious, we used a 35 ft motor-cutter as a sea-boat, contrary to all the received wisdom we had been taught at Dartmouth. (Dartmouth taught that powered boats could not be relied upon to start when you wanted them, so you only used pulling boats as a sea-boat.) But we found that, so long as the engine was started at least once a watch, it would always go first time – and what’s more, could be run, at idling speed, without cooling water for long enough to get the boat lowered and slipped. (It helped if you had a good Boat’s E.R.A.)
There used to be a display of Kitchen Gear in the Steamboat Museum at Windermere, but when I last visited, some five years ago, it had been removed – pity.
The only other boat I ever remember with Kitchen Gear was a Dockyard diving boat, in Pompey, which I think was probably a conversion of an old 42 foot Launch.
Of all the other boats mentioned so far in this thread, the only ones remaining by the 1950s were the 32 foot sailing/pulling cutter (clinker-built, double-banked, transom stern, single dipping lugsail) and the 27 foot montagu whaler, (also clinker built, single-banked, pointed stern, yawl rig). (There were one or two 30 foot gigs remaining (carvel built, single banked, narrow-transom stern, double standing lug sail rig). The standard power boat carried by every destroyer, frigate etc., was the 25 foot Motor Cutter (two removable canopies, 2 cylinder Dorman engine, reversing gear box, ordinary tiller steering. You had a stoker (well, his rate was Stoker Mechanic, later, Marine Engineering mechanic), and the Cox’n had a whistle (one blast, neutral: two blasts, full ahead: three blasts, full astern.)
That’s quite enough – sorry to have rambled on.


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## spongebob

A J Wilson, thanks for that detail on the Kitchener rudder. This brings us up to date on my thread "The Kitchener rudder" under the engine room 
Forum.

Bob


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## terrymilligan

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?130579-project-pathway-carvel-restoration.

a very similar boat .
have you found anything out.


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