# WW2 Tramps (in a nice way)



## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hello People,
I'm trying to get some info on my dads ships he served in in WW2. I'm in Australia so its a bit more difficult to do research here. My Dad was William McKinnon Stewart Born in Scotland 1919, he passed away last year and always spoke of his ships in WW2. I have some info from his "Renewal Book, original lost in Enemy Action".
The Ships are;
Tewkesbury 148295 29/01/1940-?
Newfoundland 147312 02/05/41-03/04/42
M.V. Moveria 147941 11/05/42-01/08/42
Hawthorn 118754 28/10/42-20/01/43
Burdenna IV 145163 17/04/43-27/06/43
Innesmoor 160474 30/06/43-05/10/44
Fort Vanango 169733 02/03/45-30/07/45

Regards to all Martin (AKA Vicbitter57, Vicbitter is an Oz beer[=P] )


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## Billy1963 (Jan 4, 2006)

Go to the following link and type the ships names in the appropriate box and this will give the details of each ship http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/

The first ship on your list, Tewkesbury was sunk.

Cargo ship Tewkesbury, 4,601grt, (Capper, Alexander & Co. Ltd) had been sailing independently from Rosario and Montevideo to Oban via St. Vincent with a general cargo including tinned meat and wheat. On 21st May 1941 South-West of Monrovia the ship was attacked by U-69 and was sunk by torpedo and gunfire in position 05' 49N 24' 09W. The survivors were picked up by two American ships, Exhibitor & Knoxville City. The men picked up by the Exhibitor were transferred to the British Armed Merchant Cruiser Cilicia and landed at Freetown, the remainder being landed at Cape Town.


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Billy, Yes my dad left Tewkesbury 2 weeks before she was sunk, I think thats where his original discharge book was. The BBC has a story on her, its a sad story,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/17/a1124317.shtml

I'll try the site you mentioned thanks, regards VB


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## Neumann (Dec 24, 2007)

According to my records TEWKESBURY arrived in the River Plate on 29 Jan 1940. My father was aboard her as Third Officer from 14.7.39 to 11.4.40, so your father must have sailed with him. It's strange that your father joined her as she arrived, so maybe someone else was replaced, or maybe your father was an apprentice until 29 Jan. How old was he? My father remained aboard TEWKESBURY until she was sunk, when he was Second Officer.


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Neumann, The only info I had then was a date in an Argentinian Immigration book (29-Jan-1940). I now have the ship movements and the Log for 18-Dec-1939 till 12-Apr-1940. I can email these to you, but you may already have them. Yes my father sailed with your father, he was an AB then and 20 years old. His original Discharge book was lost "due to enemy action" so I'm missing details up to 2-May-1941. He joined the "Newfoundland" on 2-May-1941, as you know Tewkesbury was sunk soon after that. He never really talked about the war apart from the places he visited. I'm looking at using a researcher now as its difficult to get info in Oz. Let me know if you'd like a copy of the log and movement records, Best regards Martin


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## Neumann (Dec 24, 2007)

There are a number of possibilities you could pursue:

1 If you could get hold of the NEWFOUNDLAND's ship's agreement from the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen (RGSS) in Cardiff (it's possible that their records have been moved by now) it would tell you the name of his previous ship when he signed on. You could continue this process until you arrive at TEWKESBURY.

2 If you happen to have his Registration number/Discharge Book number, then it should be possible to get a copy of his service record. This may come from one of the following if you are lucky: RGSS, National Maritime Museum, London, University of Newfoundland (I may have the precise name wrong here, but a university in Newfoundland, Canada), or the National Archives in Kew, London. The NA have a search engine, so by searching the Board of Trade records there, for your father's name, you may come up with a number that is his discharge book/registration number. The file attached should help. You can order copies via the internet from the NA.

The fact that a "copy" discharge book was not issued suggests that the original and its replacement may both have been lost through enemy action, but not through the loss of his ship(s). When a ship departed on a foreign voyage all the discharge books of the crew were collected together and sent in another ship to attempt to ensure that the records survived even if the holders' ship was sunk.

I would be interested to see details of the TEWKESBURY log that you have. Can you send things privately via shipsnostalgia, or do you need my e-address?

Happy New Year!


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello,
For details of MN service records 1913-1972 see
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=128

regards
Roger


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Neumann, I've sent you a pm. 
Roger, I had a look at that link thanks, both Southampton and the NA have no record of my Dad although I have his second discharge book, and the beer is correct, regards Martin (AKA VB)


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello,
Have you an *exact *date and place of birth and his discharge A number, which should be prefixed with the letter R?

regards
Roger


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, 
His birth date is 31st October 1919, Discharge number R140946. It does not show up, maybe you have more idea's on researching. Thanks Martin


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello,
It appears that a block (around the 140900's) of seamens pouchs have been lost and he dosen't show up in the medal listings
Try and get hold of his form CRS 10
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...ails.asp?CATID=8125026&CATLN=6&accessmethod=5
This should confirm his vessels with times and dates.
Also you could get hold of the logbooks and crew agreements for the times in question by typing the ships official number in to the catalogue search. 
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp?j=1
These may mention your father. If you need any further help just make a post.

Roger


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, (Happy New Year)
Thanks for the advice, I got hold of the CR10 card through Digital Express, it only listed 2 ships but confirmed he signed on for 2 trips in Newfoundland. Would there be another card with the ships written on it. The issue I have is he was on Tewkesbury, then there is a gap. I tried Tewkesburys Log book but only got part pages?. I'm thinking if I got hold of Newfoundlands Log book I may be able to look up his previous ship on that, and also the actual crew list. Is there a particular page number/s I need to request for this?, The log/agreement books confuse me!! as they appear to be different for different ships. Best wishes Martin


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## exsailor (Dec 18, 2005)

Martin,

'Innesmoor' - owned by Moor Line, Walter Runciman & Co.
Picture at http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum/Old Ships 1/slides/Innesmoor-01.html

Regards,
Dennis


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

vicbitter57 said:


> Hi Roger, (Happy New Year)
> Thanks for the advice, I got hold of the CR10 card through Digital Express, it only listed 2 ships but confirmed he signed on for 2 trips in Newfoundland. Would there be another card with the ships written on it. The issue I have is he was on Tewkesbury, then there is a gap. I tried Tewkesburys Log book but only got part pages?. I'm thinking if I got hold of Newfoundlands Log book I may be able to look up his previous ship on that, and also the actual crew list. Is there a particular page number/s I need to request for this?, The log/agreement books confuse me!! as they appear to be different for different ships. Best wishes Martin



Hello Martin.
You say you have a CR10 card? Does it look like the attached. If not could you post a photo of the do***ent you have please.

Roger 
I have airbrushed the front page for obvious reasons


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## KenLin39 (Apr 30, 2005)

vicbitter57 said:


> Hi Roger, (Happy New Year)
> Thanks for the advice, I got hold of the CR10 card through Digital Express, it only listed 2 ships but confirmed he signed on for 2 trips in Newfoundland. Would there be another card with the ships written on it. The issue I have is he was on Tewkesbury, then there is a gap. I tried Tewkesburys Log book but only got part pages?. I'm thinking if I got hold of Newfoundlands Log book I may be able to look up his previous ship on that, and also the actual crew list. Is there a particular page number/s I need to request for this?, The log/agreement books confuse me!! as they appear to be different for different ships. Best wishes Martin


Hi VB. I've read the accounts of the sinkings in the site you left but at the bottom it says "To be continued" , has it. Thanks . Ken.


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, 
Yes its the same as that, I'll try to attach the images.
Ken, I've been unable to find any more from the BBC site, but if you do a search you may find some more info on her. Regards Martin


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello Martin,
Just a quick one. Do you know *when* he joined the Merchant Navy.

Roger


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, I'm not sure, but I have an Argentinian Immigration book (Tewkesbury) stamped 18/12/1939, in the information section it says "Length of Service" 2.5 years. In the Tewkesbury Log it has Phillip M. as his last ship. Regards Martin


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, Forgot to say thanks for the avatar!, regards VB


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello Martin,
OK. He may have a MN record prior to 1940/1941 this would be his CR1 and CR2 from the fourth register of Merchant Seamen. (see the original link I sent you for an example) These cards should have been attached to his Seaman's Pouch. Since we cannot find a Pouch there may be a chance that the originals of these cards exist.
Before you set off on the logbooks trail, which as you have already found out can be complicated, I suggest you get in touch with

Southampton City Archive 
Southampton City Council 
South Block Basement 
Civic Centre 
Southampton 
SO14 7LY 
Telephone +44(0) 23 8083 2251 
Email: [email protected]

As far as I know they reply within 5 working days and charge £10 for a search. 
If you get no joy post back.

regards
Roger


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger,
I contacted them last year and they could find no record unfortunately, so I'm not sue where to go from here now, I thought of hiring a researcher to look in the archives for clues. regards Martin


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello Martin,
I was at TNA today but I did not have time to look at the Logbook and Crew Agreement for TEWKSBURY.
You said in your original post that you have a logbook for the period 18th December 1939 till 12th April 1940.
Is you dad and/or his previous ship mentioned there?
I take it you do not have a copy of the Crew Agreement, a seperate do***ent as opposed the crew list (which is in most cases part of the logbook) for the same period.

regards
Roger


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, I take it there are 2 seperate docs then, the List/Logbook and the Agreement. I have the logbook 18th Dec39 till 12th Apr 40, it lists the last ship as Philipp M. (sunk by Eboat in Feb 44). The issue I have is the period before the Tewkesbury, and approx 8 months after the dates above when I don't know where he was (may be a ship called Empire Pakeha, don,t know, he used to mention her, but that may have been before even Philipp M). He joined Hospital Ship Newfoundland on 2nd May 1941 and I know the ships from then on as I have his replacement discharge book. Thanks for helping me, regards Martin


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello Martin,
Just off to the pub.
EMPIRE PAKEHA recieved that name in June 1941 so if he was on it it must have been after his time on TEWKSBURY. June 41 could be wrong. However before that she was PAKEHA from 1910. May be worth checking out.

Roger


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, When I ask digital express for info to see if my dad was on the boat, what should I ask for. Should it be the log or agreement or another part?, it seems a bit hit or miss with them. 
I really miss the pommy beer though!! have one for me. regards Martin


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello Martin,
Digital Express is first and foremost a copying service. The people who deal with your enquiry are not trained nautical researchers, so unless you tell them the exact pages etc. it can be a bit hit and miss.
To come back to PAKEHA. in Sept. 1939 she was requistioned by the RN and used as a dummy battleship. Disguised as HMS REVENGE she was used in the Firth of Forth as a decoy for enemy aircraft. She was reconverted as a cargo ship in June 1941 and her name was changed to EMPIRE PAKEHA.
During her time as a decoy should would have been manned by at least some MN personal under RN control. These men would have signed what is known as T124X articles. The pouch records of these people are in the TNA series BT390. I was just thinking that maybe you dad was on PAKEHA and signed T124X. That would explain the missing months and to an extent his lack of a seamans pouch.
BT390/127 may give you something
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...ails.asp?CATID=8355275&CATLN=6&accessmethod=5
Just ask for the records of William McKinnon Stewart. 
It's a long shot but one the good things about Digital Express is no find , no fee! if it is there then £8.50 is a small price to pay.

regards
Roger


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, 
Thanks for that info, I'm dangling the fishing line now, see if I catch anything. Best regards Martin


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, 
No go with digital express "no such person". I had a talk with my mum and she remembers pop talking about "Pakeha" not "Empire Pakeha", she did say he talked about it being a decoy, but not sure if he was on her before or during this. I think maybe I'll try the "Newfoundland' Logbook for the entry of "Last Ship". Any tips on what to ask for? as its a bit confusing Logbooks/crewlists!. Thanks for you help so far, Regards Martin


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello Martin,
I was at TNA today and backtracked your dads ships. It was easier to do that than to try and explain how to order via digital express. As you say it can be complicated. CRS 10's and docket books were written by third parties and are well known for mistakes and omissions and in cases like this there is really no substitute for looking at the original do***ents. 

He signed on NEWFOUNDLAND on 1/5/41 together with a J Macdonald from Skye (more of him later) The vessel was anchored in the Garloch until 16/5/1941 after arriving from Liverpool on 29/1/41.
According to the *crew agreement* your dads previous ship was ARGOS HILL O/N 150465.
A look at the logbook and crew agreement of ARGOS HILL says he signed on 29/1/1941 in Glasgow. The vessel sailed Clyde on 27/2/1941 arrived New York 16/3/41 sailed 27/3/41 arrived Halifax NS 30/3/41 sailed 6/4/1941 arrived Liverpool 22/4/41 signed off 24/4/41 His previous ship was given as DALCROSS
O/N 161546 I did not have time to look at her do***ents.

You dad seems to have been pretty well behaved as all the crew lists I looked at he was VG VG.
However ther was at least one blot on the copy book. According to the Logbook of TEWKSBURY he was drunk on the 15/2/1940 in Montevideo together with six other including Macdonald from Skye. They seem to have been mates as Mcdonalds previous vessel in the crew agreement of NEWFOUNDLAND was DALCROSS.
I can confirm that your dads previous ship to TEWKSBURY was PHILPP M O/N 
147908. Again I did not have time to look at her do***ents.

regards
Roger


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Roger, 

This is great thanks very much, yes my dad was partial to some liquid refreshments. He worked as a Skipper after the war sailing well off gents round the north of scotland on their "yachts", one was the director of a famous whisky company, another had something to do with Marconi. Then he joined Steel and Bennie Clyde Tugs and skippered various tugs for many years. I used to go on them with him when I was a kid, loved it. I can remember a story he told me of them waking up one "morning after", they were aground on the Erskine Ferry Slip!. A "Good night was had by all" he would say!. I wish I'd written his stories down, Regards Martin


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello Martin
Forgot this. His voyage on TEWKSBURY was as follows
Sailed Cardiff 23/12/1939
Arrived BA 28/1/1940 Sailed 15/2/40
MV 16/2/40 22/2/40
Freetown 17/3/40 22/3/40
Liverpool 10/4/40
TEWKSBURY's next voyage was from Liverpool 21/4/40 to the River Plate. Your dad is not in the crew list or crew agreement.
He got drunk in BA and was logged on the 16th in MV.

regards
Roger


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

Martin, there is a picture of the MV Moveria in my gallery, I sailed on her many years after your father. She was an old Donaldson ship,but she was a good ship with a Glasgow crew.

John.


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi John,
Where abouts in the states are you from?, I worked in Tampa (and all over) for a year, best job I ever had but family missed Oz, so were back.
Can't find the pic of Moveria, can you give me a link please, 
regards Martin


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