# R/O to ETO



## J. Davies

It has been very quiet lately on here . 

I was wondering how many of us took the leap from R/O to ETO when the writing was on the wall thirty or more years ago, and what kind of experiences you had if so. Here I have not sent a commercial Morse message since 1987, but been employed ever since. There must be other survivors Shirley?

John


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## Engine Serang

Oh there's plenty of them but they all hanker to be out of the boiler suit and back with a shirt and epaulettes.
And don't call me Surely.


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## Varley

An opportunity to replace the nearly always trade based E/O with a technician with a base education in electrical technicianship was largely wasted (and do not for a moment think that I am looking down on the hard working E/Os of old - or of complaining that they were all without the further education that made the job a doddle). Murphy rejected the idea although some other, more forward thinking Union reps., in particular George Mochrie must have honourable mentions. I claim that I invented the term ETO. A claim made also by George. He, unfortunately is dead, which gives him little chance to argue the point.

The interim - between the limited turning out of ECOs and the idea taking traction - was an odd place. Owners had no idea what we were for but hoped for an R/O who would not start drinking until dinner time rather than before breakfast (how disappointed they must have been in that aspect of my service). College gave us a good few extra tools (particularly in the realm of reactive power) but we had nowhere to preen our new feathers unless Leckie invited assistance (certainly not more than half, and clearly there was no room for both on most tonnage. Where such tonnage did exist it would have been far more sensible to satisfy the workload with an assistant rank with further schooling/experience to gain before sailing singly).

Then there was the selection of those going back to college. Teaching and demonstrating how and why a main breaker operated or how current and power changed when the college alternator was paralleled to the grid and reacted differently to changes in excitation and fuel was wasted on those who had no intention of working on anything where the AVO read above 24 V or 1000 mA.

I had a very satisfactory result when recruiting youngsters still in the R/O college years/ Promising and interesting job with genuine prospects of achieving 2.5 rings and salary (perhaps that last was optimistic but certainly 2 rings).The key being that they had not learned any bad habits by a couple of years sitting on their backsides and getting relatively well paid and well relieved for their pains.

With few but honourable exceptions recruiting from the then existing R/O stock was disappointing (not to mention depressing). Whether E-S wrote that tongue in check, so to speak, it is not altogether unfair.

What rankles still is that when Eurofreighter went to be re-engine, on the recommendations of the Chief and Old Man I applied for and got an E/O's position. Zero seniority. Nick Dunbar (one of the few others successfully then to "cross the plates") was approached by Denholm to do the same. The bugger was offered a year's seniority.

I will now retire with my tin hut to the wine cellar.


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## Engine Serang

I have never sailed on a ship which had an ETO, that's why I can talk so knowledgeably about them.
I have employed many of them and found very few of them to be resentful of their new employment indeed many relished working in a team. This naturally included the camaraderie of the pour-out after a breakdown or Field Day.
As control systems moved towards electronics rather than pneumatics and became more sophisticated and complicated (difficult), having an ETO was a godsend.
STCW can be discussed early in the New Year.
John keeping in employment is the name of the game, congrats.

ps I don't have a wine cellar but there's space in the Utility between the washing machine and the deep freeze for a few bottles.


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## Basil

Varley said:


> I will now retire with my tin hut to the wine cellar.


Recollect going to dinner in Rosebank outside Jo'burg.
Waiter arrives at the table with red wine in an ice bucket.
The obvious was asked.
Came the reply:
"Our wine cellar is a tin hut out the back. The a/c has failed so the wine is about the temperature of tea!"

Agreeing nods all round :sweat:


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## James_C

Post GMDSS in 92(?) BP tankers proposed to merge the R/O and E/O ranks into the new position of ETO. I seem to recall this meant a loss in seniority for both sets hence why it was resisted.
Latterly we had ETO(R) and ETO(E) ranks which reflected the background of the individual, and indeed some ships carried one of each until circa 1999 when they all simply became ETO.
All BP ETOs - regardless of background - did however have a GMDSS ticket as per company policy, this being because their muster position was on the bridge handling external communications. 
In an unusual display of clear thinking, head office realised that in an emergency it was naive in the extreme to think that the Master and 3rd mate could possibly cope with dealing with the actual emergency as well as having to play 20 questions with every Tom, Dick and Harry ashore by RT or satellite telephone, as is sadly the way of the modern world.
Just a pity so many other companies were not as sensible.


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## duncs

I never applied for an ETOs job and was happy as an RO. However, I was working for an agency and was pushed into it. I did have suitable qualifications.
I had to give up around '92, due to health problems. I worked in a number of jobs after that, house wiring, repairing washing machines, TVs, computers, night vision equipment and much more.
About 15 years ago I got the chance of a job as a nigh****chman/pierhand, I jumped at it. Happy to be back on ships, though not on articles, but as a shoresider. My RO/ETO days seem like a previous lifetime.


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## Varley

MRGC was a suitable qualification. In the kingdom of the uncertificated a grudging pass is king. Not that a year back at school did not help (A month with Mr. Innes however would have been adequate for solving the problems of a ship rather than of the examination room). It was rarely the certificated level of learning that was at issue. Just the enthusiasm to use it. A month at East Ham Depot taught me that that lack of enthusiasm could often be seen glowing brightly in the radio room without any wider expectation.

The essential underpinning knowledge is modest. The key however is "essential".

(One or two youngsters occasionally ask "How do you DO that?" my response is that "If it wasn't easy then I couldn't do it").


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## Gordon L Smeaton

Served at sea from 1966 through to 2012 firstly as R/O then REO to ERO to ETO, served on tankers, to emergency support vessel, saturation dive tech, dp Tech, cable layer, LNG and construction vessel.
Was sent on a marine electronics course in Plymouth early 70's and went back mid 70's to complete the MNTB electonics. Attended various courses over the intervening years mainly HV protection and HV Isolation. I enjoyed the transition from the radio room/nav equipment to looking after the ships electronics irrespective of where it was fitted, suppose I enjoyed the challenge of something new, was always confident if I had a decent manual then I could figure out how it worked and therefore repair it or identify the required part. Also was fairly competent in hydraulic systems, looking after gangways and offshore cranes assisting engineers in fault location. Would not however relished the necessity to do a 4th engs ticket as most of the ships I was on the ETO was a full time job anyway.


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## P.Arnold

*Eco*

In 73/74 at Plymouth Tech
There were several R/Os from BP who did a 3 month course and us from Marconi on the 6 month course which ended with C & G exams and the MNTB cert. To be honest, very little in that 6 months course prepared me for what I was to do 12 months later.
In the meantime I joined Mobil, were the ‘cert was regarded as PMG plus, for a choice R/O. (No derogatory comments E S!!)
I then joined Globtik Tokyo, were once again it felt as if the ‘cert was an enhancement of my existing qualification, rather than a new one.
On both vessels I do not recall attending to anything outside of my R/O duties.
However, joining Denholms GTVs, in 75, changed that. I had a junior R/O whose duty was in the Radio room, and me on day work with the other engineers. I did enjoy it, as has been said before, being part of a team.
What did disappoint me was that with a rare exception none of the ‘juniors’ showed any interest in being an ECO, as it was then.
I left 18 months later, another story. 
The following 10 years in servicing, I was in daily contact with R/Os, very few showing any interest in anther career, despite the writing on the bulkhead.


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## Split

J. Davies said:


> It has been very quiet lately on here .
> 
> I was wondering how many of us took the leap from R/O to ETO when the writing was on the wall thirty or more years ago, and what kind of experiences you had if so. Here I have not sent a commercial Morse message since 1987, but been employed ever since. There must be other survivors Shirley?
> 
> John


I'm not an R/O, but I am a John Davies! Pleased to meet you 
Not many of us around---you are the first I've met as far as I can remember.

John


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## Troppo2

James_C said:


> In an unusual display of clear thinking, head office realised that in an emergency it was naive in the extreme to think that the Master and 3rd mate could possibly cope with dealing with the actual emergency as well as having to play 20 questions with every Tom, Dick and Harry ashore by RT or satellite telephone, as is sadly the way of the modern world.
> Just a pity so many other companies were not as sensible.


EXACTLY!

This is where the whole GMDSS concept and execution falls flat....but the GMDSS was always about getting rid of people.


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## Baulkham Hills

I made the transition in the late 80's but it was some crazy system of 4 hours engine room and 4 hours radio room, but I did learn a lot. Then in the early 90's I went back to an r/o job with a different company because the money was fantastic, I did not enjoy it and the writing was on the wall as so many Deck officers having a GMDSS cert took pleasure in telling me. I finally went full ETO after a few years and obtained a combined 4th class eng cert. (big deal some would say) but my subsequent employers were quite impressed, I knew the systems very well (being on ships before the internet or sat tv I used to read all the equipment manuals) and I enjoyed fault finding and keeping equipment working well. I was never more than two weeks between jobs until I retired. I certainly wish I could have transitioned earlier.


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## gordonarfur

Thanks for all this info about eto whatever that is but not really of interest to me as it sounds like black gang work. Of far more interest to me is what were the requirements for R/O,s to transition to 4th mate when w/t finished, where was it done how long was the process etc? and did many take up this option?


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## Troppo2

gordonarfur said:


> Thanks for all this info about eto whatever that is but not really of interest to me as it sounds like black gang work. Of far more interest to me is what were the requirements for R/O,s to transition to 4th mate when w/t finished, where was it done how long was the process etc? and did many take up this option?


In Oz, we were offered the options of a golden handshake or retraining for 2nd mate's cert (i.e. 3rd mate's job).

I took the money and ran, but I had done the 100 hrs of bridge understudy, etc, as I was very interested in retraining.

A friend took the deck option, and he eventually got command. He came ashore and became a harbour pilot.

I sometimes wonder if I should have stayed at sea, as I quite liked being a makey learnie mate....but I had a young family and had been at sea for 11 years already.


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## Baulkham Hills

gordonarfur said:


> Thanks for all this info about eto whatever that is but not really of interest to me as it sounds like black gang work. Of far more interest to me is what were the requirements for R/O,s to transition to 4th mate when w/t finished, where was it done how long was the process etc? and did many take up this option?


There was a conversion course at South Shields (I think) and twice I was given the option to change but it never appealed to me, having done some watches I found it was like watching paint dry. No comradeship just putting the hours in before my relief came up. I knew an r/o on the ferries who did it and then went with the RFA, so it suited some people.


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## spaarks

After 6 years in BP, I worked as R/O in Cable & Wireless Marine from 1971 to 1975 - a great job with lots of electronics such as hydrographic survey equipment like sidescan fish and sub bottom profilers. Great Conditions of Service, and the repair ships spent half the time in port!

In 1985 I transferred kicking and screaming from the Radio Department to the Subsea Department, as 'Assistant ROV Pilot' on SCARAB, which was based in a shed in Vigo. I was promised it would only be for three months. After a few weeks I phoned HR and said I'd like to stay! Great team atmosphere and I learnt a lot in that shed and read the manuals from cover to cover!

The ROVs were operated mostly by Cable Engineers at the time, but they were in short supply! In the '80's we took on quite a few trainees straight out of Marine Radio School, there not being a lot of R/O jobs going.

After less than a year I was promoted to 'Deputy Pilot' (seond-in-command) for my first operational job, on the Leon Thevenin. Half way through the job the 'Chief Pilot' baled out due to problems at home, and I got bumped up to 'Acting Chief Pilot'. Thanks Jeff!

For the next job I was confirmed as Chief Pilot, which came with three stripes and a big pay increase. Trainee to top in about two years! I guess I happened to be in the right place at the right time.
I stayed in the Subsea Department until I took 'Voluntary' redundancy in 2003 when the Company downsized due to the bursting of the dot com bubble. I got out at the right time, as by then the job had started to go downhill a bit. I imagine it is still a great job though.

PS - SCARAB is on display in the Maritime Museum.


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## rogd

Who was in charge of the young lady's controls Denis?


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## Sparkie_Fung

J. Davies said:


> It has been very quiet lately on here .
> 
> I was wondering how many of us took the leap from R/O to ETO when the writing was on the wall thirty or more years ago, and what kind of experiences you had if so. Here I have not sent a commercial Morse message since 1987, but been employed ever since. There must be other survivors Shirley?
> 
> John


Thanks for the many posts and sharing. I must say the closest touch I had with EO was over 40 years ago! 

I was trained with MRGC in 1974 and then got Maritime Electronics Dip, High Dip and Radar Cert from Brunnel TC, Bristol in 1976 after one year at sea. Indo-China SN didn't have an official job title for EO so I was considered as REO doing mainly RO jobs plus "helping" the Leaky after my Dip (plus C&G). For two years, my involvement was mainly out of interest and out of boredom while in port, and the company wanted to try how REO can fit into the system. I went back to a undergraduate course in Maritime Technology at UWIST, Cardiff from 1978-1981; follow by a Master Degree in 1981-82. Indo-China took me on for three months in 1979 but I was let go after that (was it a recession at that time?). I then got another three months over the holiday with Marconi in the summer of 1980 and that was the last of my sea days. I also worked as a shore based technician for Marconi in HK for three months before went to study in UWIST in 1978. I must say I did see "writing on wall" for the role of RO to be phased out, although it took 20 years for it to happen. I took on a teaching job in Department of Nautical Studies, Singapore Polytechnic in 1982 and tried to launch a Marine EO program but it never got through. Subsequently, I was transferred to the Electronic and Communication Engineering Department, and then migrated to AUS for a PhD. I then changed my career to become a faculty member for thirty years... 

I now spend my time on cruises and I hope to clock up more sea days on cruises than my former working sea-days. All in all, i must say electronics and computers have changed the ships forever and I am glad I made the switch. Some of my ex classmates or colleagues stayed and made as much money as possible before retirement. Some have gone into technical field, mainly telecommunication, radio and wireless (some were in high demand when mobile phone industry was first launched...) 

In summary, I may only have experienced a short glimpse of sea life and the early REO days, I must say it has been a rewarding experience and mother ocean has treated me well... I now spend more time to study my next cruises and the dining venues plus entertainment features on the ships.... Ahoy! 

Happy New Year!

Lance
Perth, WA, Australia


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## Troppo2

rogd said:


> Who was in charge of the young lady's controls Denis?


(Jester)(Jester)


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## Engine Serang

Haven't seen a Shirley like that for years.


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## Shipbuilder

I qualified with 2nd class in 1960, and went to sea in early 61. First Class in 1962, and Radar in 1968. Then walked out of the Advanced Marine Electronic Course at Southampton College of Technology in 1973 after the first three months of the course. I realised that it didn't matter how much I applied myself to my studies, it was completely and utterly beyond me. At that time, I was 2nd R/O in Pendennis Castle, and had never had any problems in servicing any of the equipment in our care, transmitters, receivers, radar and PA systems. I was just no good academically, and 1st Class and Radar were the absolute limit of my scholastic capabilities. Also, I was very happy being a passenger ship R/O with short voyages, excellent food, and good company. On walking out of the course, I decided that never again would I go to college, or study any form of electronic theory, and would fudge along with practical ability, and go for "results" rather than academic qualifications. I was told by the principal that I had thrown my career away, and would become a failure. After I announced this to head office, they made me relieving Electronics Inspector in Southampton where I dealt with the mailships and cargo ships in Southampton and the Bristol Channel area. After three months of it, during which time I had had no trouble with the job, I asked to return to sea. I was sent to Bilbao to stand by the radio/radar refit of Good Hope Castle that had been burned out a year before, and then sailed in her for about two years as senior R/O (Two of them). During this time, I began to make plans for leaving the sea, making sure that it would have nothing whatsoever to do with modern electronics, but would be maritime-based. The initial plan was to build model ships, and start writing. When the company decided they were getting out of shipping in 1977, I left for Silver Line who showed no interest in sending me to college, and were a very good company to work for. The only thing I really disliked was they flying. My three Silver Line ships were one four-year-old bulker, followed by a newbuild at Cammell Lairds, and finally a brand new cargo liner fresh out from Hiroshima. My next big break came in 1979 when I was asked to join Curnow Shipping in the RMS St Helena that had taken over the Union-Castle Cape Mail contract. Two R/Os did one trip on, one trip off, and whoever was on leave took the place of a "radio consultant" in the complete absence of a radio department ashore in "Head Office." This was fantastic, and we both had a more-or-less free hand in the shipboard communications and servicing, ordering of new equipment etc, and even jointly installed a teleprinter system on the company's 400 ton tanker Bosun Bird, merely on our suggestion. This fantastic situation carried on for 11 years until the old ship wore out, and was replaced by the brand new RMS St Helena, in 1990, that only went out of service last year. By that time, the writing was very much on the wall, and feeling fully prepared, I was able to take voluntary redundancy at the end of 1992. So the predications that I had "thrown away" my career in 1973, were wrong, as I survived almost 20 years after that, ending up on what was to become a very famous passenger liner with all the very latest electronics aboard. By that time, I was putting more hours work in per day than in all my previous sea time. 8 hours a day in the radio room, and between that, sorting out electronic systems all over the ship (Video machines, fire alarms, computers, PA system, Satcoms etc etc). Over 260 model ships have been built and sold since then, and Shelterdeck Publishing registered in 2014 with printed books and e-books on maritime matters .shipmodelling, and vintage radio, being published continually. This has proved to be the best of both worlds, because I am still connected with the sea, but have none of the disadvantages of being there. I was never cursed by ambition, and was quite happy as an R/O, but I now enjoy the freedom of being my own boss to the extent that I am still working, and enjoying it at the age of 75. I seldom earn even the minimum wage, but as Stan Rogers says in the song "But I am free, and that makes me, an idiot, I suppose" https://youtu.be/_LhkW4Rcbiw 
Bob


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## Basil

Shipbuilder, sounds good to me. Beautiful models and chassis (MF superhet?).
I only had enough sea time to sit Part A of my 2nd Class before leaving.
I was looking at a LOT of study in either IBM or a power station when the idea of military flying was planted. Plus point was they supplied all the training.
My Flt Cdr didn't share my belief that I was OK at officer and aviation techy things and we had a one-sided interview.
Bas: "But some of the others have degrees, Sir."
FC: "Yes, Basil, and you should hear the bollockings THEY get!" 
Bas: "Yes Sir." 

Until this thread started, I was unaware of the RO>ETO step and imagined that things had continued roughly as before.


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## Shipbuilder

Thanks,
Not a superhet. 3 valve TRF. The screening cans (stainless steel saltsellers), contain the RF coils and the detector/reaction coils.
Bob


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## Riccarton

An interesting discussion. In 1964, having been since 1957 a 2R/O and 1R/O with Brocklebank, I decided things were changing and further education was a possible route. That year I started an HND in Electrical and Electronic Engineering at PaisleyCT. Interesing a fellow student had been a seagoing Electrical Officer.
During the second year ofmy course I had two articles published in the ROU magazine setting out a propsed syllabus for an HND E&E course that would also satisfy PMG requirements.
An HND route did eventually appear for which I was an SQA External Assessor at what was Jewel & Esk Valley College, having subsumed Leith Nautical College.


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## J. Davies

Interesting responses. The common thread seems to be that the R/O ticket was a good foundation for any further career we chose. Some went very far indeed.

In my case I stayed on ships and worked for Swire in the 70s and 80s, deep sea fleet. At that time they had a couple of DP dive boats in their offshore division. I requested the MED training course and a transfer to a DSV during one of the periods in oil and gas when the oil price dived and day-rates plummeted. It was a choice between sacking this newly-minted ETO or the Electrician. For some unknown reason I was the lucky one. 

There followed three years of overhauling motors, generators, switchboards and everything else. You had to be pretty fit, which I suppose I was. It was a baptism of fire but it set me up for 30 more years at sea, mostly on DP dive boats. In the good times we earned small fortunes, but there were some doldrums as well.

My last vessel was a rich Texan's private dive ship, DSSV Pressure Drop, an 18-month contract sending him down to the deepest places of the five oceans. I was just a humble ship's lecky but what a party that was.

https://fivedeeps.com/

The old bones are starting to ache and it is now time to swallow the anchor.

Happy New Year to All


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## Varley

Rather 'Adequate foundation'.

When I looked around for more appropriately educated graduates (I do not mean degree level, simply those emerging from colleges for employment) we seemed to produce none. Certainly nothing like the Eastern Block did.

The excuse seemed to be the lack of a market coupled with state funding availability (the Industry has always considered education to be a State function and training to be Industry's). In the jargon of those days courses all had to 'articulate with the next more academic level - building blocks on a straight ladder to the 'top'. I have no idea where shore industry get its Electricians (as in those that do similar 'plant' work not housebuilders' wiremen) very few seemed to come our way (notable exceptions: the coal and gas industries where they could not afford NOT to have the sort of people that were our due).

Everything has to be measured against the eventual benefit it brings and the Easterners are now finding that their graduates are better educated than the State can afford balanced against the shipowners' needs onboard.

Perhaps the East invested too much in candidates for the requirements of the lower ladder rungs and we invest(ed) too little.

From a personal point of view I would have preferred to articulate from secondary into Eastern further education. From an employers' point of view (at my modest level, anyway) I wanted only adequacy in both availability and education. More than that benefits only others and the cost benefit equation for Industry, Taxpayer and subject is for those others to decide and fund.

Selfishness comes into my equation too. If qualified for something 'higher' then I am always going to have to fish for E/Os in a much larger pool and pay more to keep them once on the hook. More able than me, so I do not have to work very hard, is fine but not so able that I cannot afford them. It is all about ME not them! 

Anyway, for me and many on SN this is passed and the New Year makes it further passed. That doesn't mean it should not be a good one for all of us which is what I wish.


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## duncs

Varley said:


> Rather 'Adequate foundation'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selfishness comes into my equation too. If qualified for something 'higher' then I am always going to have to fish for E/Os in a much larger pool and pay more to keep them once on the hook. More able than me, so I do not have to work very hard, is fine but not so able that I cannot afford them. It is all about ME not them!


Yes, David, I realise that. Pay them sh1te, and when a ship's not available, dump them!

(Smoke)


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## Varley

duncs said:


> Yes, David, I realise that. Pay them sh1te, and when a ship's not available, dump them!
> 
> (Smoke)


Not what I meant at all. You remember that when I started as ECO the scale was somewhat above 3/E (seniority interferes with the scale). This was not tenable by the early 80s although I have always believed that the E/O is either no. 3 in the engine room team or is fit only to be somewhere else (possibly wiring houses). A two and half ringer with salary to match.

Whilst that remains my (somewhat self adulatory?) opinion I am also practical and so with DSM in the forefront the ETO was invented. To be the same as ECO but only paid as 3/E. At the same time the R/O (always a chance given to go ETO, few took it up) was revised (ie cut) to a 4/E equivalent (Frank McNeilage, P. Manager, engineered to screw this a bit by putting it alongside a seniority scale that restored the level so that a new ETO, doing a job of work and preventing me from having to, could be paid the same as an old hand sitting on his anal surrounds). The longer term envisaged was that GMDSS would allow us to simply drop the title and revert to E/O. ETO however seems to have taken traction.

Whilst I cannot remember a ship where the existing E/O was exchanged for ECO/ETO - I am sure there must have been - there were certainly new contracts where an E/O did not figure and as the R/O was still then required we (more the proper Supers and Chiefs than me) were left with either an R/O who worked below or nothing.

Let's face it, many managers had been sailing safely without E/Os anyway - rather a matter of culture. The only two I remember being 'forced' to leave were two of the ETOs not E/Os. One off to 'better' things, when waiting too long unpaid for a berth with us, with Shell although he did not want to go and more disgracefully my one and only lady ETO who in modern parlance had her exit 'constructed' simply on account of gender and one of the ablest.

The pay and leave remained 'not bad' just not for the ETO as fair as it should have been.

The wholesale move of sea staff to Denholm Bermuda remains in our eyes an attempt to keep 'our' ships staffed with 'our' people and still attract clients. Does anyone imagine that an office stuffed with Brits wanted to struggle with foreign officers? (I know, selfish again). When CAST went bust, something of a driver in the process (John, please don't tell us again how the Duck quacking was not a duck quacking!). I did ask, at a 'crisis' staff meeting, why Sir Ian shareholder had not shut down the operation. Management companies like DSM (as opposed to DLS) have virtually no capital. Carpets, desks, computers, even Manager's cars and other perks were leased. Nothing the rag and bone man take as stock let alone a bank as collateral. They cannot sustain a loss for any length of time.

My answer from the late great David Underwood was that by the efforts of all (I think especially the Directors, but then he would have said that) we had not made a loss otherwise that is exactly what would have happened.

Selfish, yes, but 'daddy' was still looking out for you. Just not as diligently as he did for himself. Whilst an instrumental cog I must point out that there were both other supporters and opposition, of the latter enough to thicken the skin.


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## duncs

I'll go along with what you say, David.
Can you tell me, was 'Armada Marine' connected to DSM?


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## Varley

There is always perspective. Not that I know of but if a client rather than an arm of the company can you give me a ship name?


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## gordonarfur

I was always interested in the transition from R/O to 3/O ,its availability and process. Has any reader of this blog done that and if so can they please elaborate.


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## duncs

DV, when DSM dumped me, vessel laid up. I joined Armada Marine, Plymouth. This recommended job came from DSM. Ship names I can remember, Corato, Freenes and EB Carrier.
I made the mistake of signing a contract.
I had a job on an Odeco semi sub, as radio technician. After setting up the gear, I was asked to remain as radio op, same wages, which were great. After a few trips, Odeco wanted me to go direct employed with them.
Armada Marine wouldn't release me from the contract.

Forgot the Rollnes, Rocknes and Risnes.


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## trotterdotpom

gordonarfur said:


> I was always interested in the transition from R/O to 3/O ,its availability and process. Has any reader of this blog done that and if so can they please elaborate.


In Australia, ROs were offered the opportunity of switching to the mate's side. I never fancied it myself because the Australian MN was looking dicy at best and I thought it was a recipe for disaster. I didn't fancy all the study required either. I do know of at least one who did it and obtained employment as a 3rd Mate. Hope it worked out in the long run for anyone who took that option.

A couple of trips before I was "let go", I attended a seminar about new crewing arrangements on Australian ships. A few Seamen's Union heavyweights were there and I got talking to one of them. I asked him why I couldn't retrain as a steward and he ran away from me!

I did know an RO who swapped over and eventually ended up becoming Master. This was before the night of the long knives though. He'd been an AB on Norwegian ships previously and had enough seatime to go for his ticket. I sailed with him when he was Mate and I remember an AB ****ging him off, saying: "He was a Sparks, what does he know about working on deck?" I said: "Well he was an AB on Norwegian ships so I suppose he knows about as much as you do!"

John T


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## duncs

I can well remember the tug of war, between the OM and the CE. "he's my 3/O", "No he's not, he's my electrician"
Leaving port, the OM nicely dressed, with braid, me in a dirty boilersuit. I don't know what the pilot thought, but was probably too polite to say anything.


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## Varley

Duncan,

Corato and EB Carrier were in Management at some time. EB Carrier was in, out (with Mr. Sonmez directly or a Turkish manager anyway, and back in - a fun ship about which we have posted before!)

Rocknes etc were either manning only or Triport/D MacLay in the former case I viewed DCM (Denholm Crew Management) as actively working against DSM (A little strong but they thought Crew only contracts could do without someone doing Technical Management and even if that might be some virtual requirement then it wasn't material to them if it was DSM or AN Other). In the latter case I occasionally got a question or two thrown my way but latrgely they looked after themselves.

Your point WRT the bridge. I am reminded that when the new Alcan vessels 'came out' someone had used the R/O to massage the Safe Manning Application and he figured on the bridge to do the Telegraph and movement book. When introducing an ETO I thought it was more important he should see what was happening below so I stood in. Only to discover they had to trick the telegraph to get her to start at Dead Slow. Never fix it properly if one can fiddle it!

(Same visit revealed the steering gear changeover abortion had been wired up a about F so a loss of oil would have automatically destroyed both pumps (Same for the 'class') and that the ME Jackets could not be kept hot enough because the piston flow detection required a simple adjustment (RLA 90 - relying on a heater and temperature switch with the flow to cool the combination). Never let the specialist know you have a problem, just let your engine rot with cold corrosion.

Doncha just miss it? I do.

DV


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## duncs

I do tend to miss it, David. It's like it was a previous existence. You're right, the Jebsen boats were only manned, and managed from Ruislip.
The Freenes had Japanese Tsugi electric cranes and were a nightmare for me. The control gear reminded me of the old telephone exchanges, all relays, etc. We did our own load/discharge, no shore cranes. Somehow, I managed to keep them going, while I was there.
I sometimes think, "was it real?".


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## Troppo2

It was a great job. For a young, single bloke.

I often look back with a smile.


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## searover

I was Marconi R/O starting in 1953 - passenger liners and also world-wide tramping. LOVED sea life. Then joined P&O in 1957 for even better experiences including the initial years of ss Canberra (eight R/Os). Swallowed the anchor in 1963 to join IBM - a varied and interesting career that lasted 30 years. But I always, (and still) pine for my seafaring days. The varying views Ive been told of life at sea in the 1980s/90s make me realise that I made a lucky decision in 1963 as air travel was quickly taking over sea travel. I can't imagine wanting to be an ETO even if it meant still being at sea. But oh how I much I wanted to go back to my good old days.


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## Shipbuilder

On my first trip in early 1961, I was told by several of my shipmates that R/Os were totally unneccessary, and would be dispensed with within the next few years. For the next 31 years, I heard the same old worn-out statement put to me, that we "didn't do anything" and work was no more than moving finger ends (morse), but as the years rolled, I found that I was working harder than ever before under a deluge of satcoms, telephone calls, company and passenger traffic (1 R/O and 136 passengers). Then when supposed to be off duty, working all over the place sorting out PA problems, computers, videos, TVs, tape recorders etc. When voluntary redundancy was offered to the whole lot of us from captain down, I jumped at the chance (They did offer us all re-employent in the same jobs with a 30% pay cut! (Cloud) I generally enjoyed my time at sea, but I only wanted to be an R/O. I have never missed it, and don't even feel very far away from it as I moved over into the "maritime nostalgia" trade as self-emplyed. Lots of other ex R/Os that I know also seemed to have made a success of new careers after leaving the sea. I guess that most of us were extremely versatile, and could turn our hands to anything!


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## cajef

I always wanted to go to sea as a deck officer but was disappointed when I was told my eyesight was not good enough, so went for what I thought at the time was the next best thing and trained as an RO, now looking back I realise it was actually the best thing, only person I was responsible to was the OM nobody could tell me how to do my job, plenty time off in port and actually enjoyed the work.

Another plus was I had no problem when I wanted to come ashore in finding other employment, I applied to Decca Radar and was straight away offered a job as a marine electronics engineer, to me it was the best of both worlds, still working on ships of all types and sizes installing and servicing electronic equipment with occasional sea trips doing sea trials etc., and ended up as a manager of one of their service depots.

I enjoyed every minute of my time at sea and would have stayed longer had my then newly married wife not wanted me away all the time but I could never have envisage myself becoming an ETO, I went to sea as an RO and that is all I wanted be while at sea.


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## Baulkham Hills

I did a short trip on the Freenes, a ship in woeful condition with a deeply unpleasant skipper who I heard got the sack for pocketing a bonus meant for the crew. and manning cut to the bone. For god sake there was not even enough crockery on board and handover included a mug and a caution not to lose it. So people went to the saloon with mug in hand like inmates in some institution. We got ice bound in the St. Lawrence which was a first for me, unfortunately the prop was damaged by the ice. From memory I think the crew were changed back to Filippo and the ship was only registered in the UK to take an advantage of some UK tax incentive. A ship to forget.


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## gordonarfur

Hi John thanks for the info much appreciated, unfortunately I would have been too old to transition to 3/0 but would have loved to have had the chance. leaning over the bridge dodger on the 8-12 watches dreaming of the South American fleshpots and swapping jokes with sparks wonderful.!!!


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## richardwakeley

An interesting discussion, which I just come across after a few months absent from SN. In my case, I joined Indo-China SN (Jardines) of Hong Kong in the early 80s as an R/O. They had the management of Gearbulk ships, on which the R/O was described as 'REO' and assisted the E/O, mainly on the gantry cranes. This included the normal maintenance, as well as 'parking and unparking', testing etc. on arrival and departure. Eventually they let me 'have a go' as 2nd Elec for a few months under the chief's guidance, and then take over as E/O. Still had an R/O onboard, so I now had nothing to do with the radio side. By the 90s, with GMDSS coming along, the assisting REOs were being phased out, in which I took a part by retrofitting many of the ships with the GMDSS gear. I continued on as 'Snr Electrician' until 1997, but I never credit myself with being a good one. I left for a shore tech job in 97.


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## Piecesofeight

Is that Chris Penrose Stevens second from right? He was at MNC Greenhithe 1980-83 and I know he worked on cable ships


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## Piecesofeight

"trained as an RO, now looking back I realise it was actually the best thing, only person I was responsible to was the OM nobody could tell me how to do my job,"

Precisely. In later years as the R/O petered out I worked ETO under several C/E all except one of whom were bullys. The R/O job was wonderful and good to have done it at all.


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## sparkie2182

"Some went very far indeed"

I believe a former Director of Outside Broadcasting Engineering of the BBC was a former R/O.


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## Dave Woods

Piecesofeight said:


> Is that Chris Penrose Stevens second from right? He was at MNC Greenhithe 1980-83 and I know he worked on cable ships


Yes got it in one.


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## dannic

Last company I sailed deepsea with, large tanker outfit, up til 3 years ago no Electrical, ETO or anything similar carried.
My job as chief.
Claims there were 3 leccys who did a month here or there were office myths!!
Dannic


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## Piecesofeight

Attention DV perhaps you'd like to know the reality of life on those Alcan ships as ETO. This from a letter I wrote to a friend in August 1992. I make no apology for the content it's all true.

"No doubt you are wondering what is involved in being an ETO (electro technical officer) with Denholms. Well first off I can assure you that you are missing nothing. Just over a year ago I was earning more than I earn here for being simply an R/O. Denholms have been employing ETOs for some years having obviously come to the conclusion that it is unnecessary to employ both an electrician and an R/O if the latter can be persuaded to do both jobs for a single salary. The result is that I have direct responsibility for more equipment, checks, routines and jobs than I ever imagined possible. 
It is a horrendous task and just to rub salt in the wound I am responsible for the ALRS corrections which take forever and cannot be done during the non‑existent watches (tape recorded silence periods).
I have inherited a considerable list of outstanding jobs which could well have been done within the time of the last ETO. I have inherited several months of back corrections not done because the 'new' books had not arrived. To add to the fun the old man here keeps a special file for monthly signature that corrections are up to date. 
It is difficult to do them with a screwdriver in one hand and a meter in the other.
The day starts at 8am in the radio room, in uniform, to get any incoming traffic (we have HF tlx, Satcom, etc) and write the log. 
Then off down the e/r in boiler suit to check for lamps out and megger a few motors, also do Shock Pulse Metering (a way of checking bearings) on the running motors. There are 123 motors on board for which I am directly responsible both for megger checks, SPM and running currents etc. A report has to be submitted to the C/E every three months on the meggering and every two months for the SPM of which there are 61/123 to check. On a blackboard beside me as I write are seventeen outstanding jobs of which some will be done soon as
spares arrive here in Port Alfred.
After lunch and in the evenings I am required to rewind the tape and listen to the ac***ulated silence periods in order to comply with the ships watch exemption. To make life more interesting they require that the timer be set to record for one minute before and after the silence period i.e. H=14‑19 and H+44‑49. This makes for 80 minutes a day of extra duty some of which can of course be used updating the log and writing the workbook and spares orders, or doing ALRS corrections perhaps.
It is impossible to plan mentally ahead to cope with this because despite whatever one had planned to get done, someone (cook, C/O, C/E, Capt) will stop me in an alleyway and say 'Sparks could you just have a look at this'. One can say later but often it's the old man or the C/E not taking no for an answer.
In addition to the above I have of course to handle all incoming and outgoing traffic, including accounts, all bridge equipment, (natch), and my movements about the ship and what I am doing at any time are monitored by the Capt, C/E and 2/E the latter who tried laying it on when I first arrived but has now backed off after I complained. I have the status of a third engineer (if that) with all that that implies. I feel like the ships dogsbody."

I gave up listening to the SP tapes within days. As a former R/O it offended my sense of duty to do this but the whole point of SPs is to reply to a ship in distress at the time, not eight hours later so I regarded the whole exercise as futile and this on top of a day's work. I'd like to know how DSM ever obtained an exemption from the regs to have a ship not listening to SPs on a real time basis. Needless to say I never went back and am still sorry I ever took the job in the first place.


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## sparkie2182

"whole point of SPs is to reply to a ship in distress at the time"

Obviously.

An unbelievable situation.


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## Varley

I am sorry you did not get any fun out of the job, Po8. You seem to think that I had not done it myself, sometimes on ships a lot more complicated than the NKK built bulk carriers.

When I did jump ship to E/O (Mimco seemed to have no prospects of me being able to continue as ECO) I would cast the odd glance towards the radio room in wonder that anyone could have engineered such demarcation. Good reasons were there none. Why you think ohms law is applied differently just because it is followed in the radio room and not universally I cannot imagine.

I also cannot imagine why engineering supers and chiefs engineer should prefer an uneducated tradesman (which very many of even our best E/Os were) at their beck and call than someone with at least the basics of an electrical education. (Actually I can. The former were generally used to hard work whereas the those forced by the job market rather than by instinct were often more used to sitting on their ****s for 12 hours a day, 8 with headphones on and 4 on a bar stool).

It is true that as ECO I did earn more than ETO (and often had a Junior instead of a taperecorder) and that is how we started off when I got into the driving seat (well as much of a perch as I was allowed) Between 2nd and 3rd remains where I think the scale should lie but it soon became untenable in a Brit setting. If we could not make the financial equation fit a Brit solution then we got third worlder with even less education (very true then, I have no idea how that has improved). It was, indeed my lobby that reduced R/Os wage to that of 4th, what on earth possessed any of us to think that 8 hours ****sitting was worth more (sorry 8 hours ALRS correcting). The intention, however, was not to punish or degrade but to encourage those who would do more to do more. In doing so make it back up to 3rd and to keep a Brit (for a bit longer anyway). There were disappointingly few who wanted to. Frank McNeilage managed to screw that up in my opinion with a deal with the Unions to march the pay back up to 3rd with seniority awards

I truly am sorry that your great (good? mediocre?) time at sea stopped when you started being productive. That's when my great time started (and I still managed a good bit of barstool ****sitting as well).

It would be extremely disappointed if any of the 'babies' that I took directly from College (before they could get used to the ****sitting habit) had the same view of their careers as you did (I still hear from some of them from time to time, not from the one lady, an excellent technician who we, and I would not like to be part of that we, treated very badly). 

You cannot be blamed, attracted to sea with the prospect of good pay and good leave for doing little unless you, your ship or another nearby were very unlucky, it is not surprising that having to put in a days useful work was unwelcome.

The 'Equivalence' was not especially ours (it was the North West European Navtex Exemption). Perhaps applied in a more geographically liberal fashion by Flag than its authors had intended.

You seem to have been able (another problem with those recruited from existing R/O stock) which makes it even sadder that you did not enjoy it. Dogsbody? I always felt that I had taken a step up in the status stakes but then I have always been big-headed.

It might be fun to hear from another on the subject. Both of us are clearly biased. I intended nothing altruistic either. I was not trying to shoe-in Brits for the sake of Brits but for the sake of me having a knowing body onboard to ensure I did not have to work, or if I did, then I had someone who spoke-a-da-electric with which to communicate onboard (and for your part in that, I thank you).

(Just please, please don't tell me how hard you worked when covering only the R/O's job on a cargo ship - remember I have been there, done that and wrung the beer out of the T-Shirt).


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## Piecesofeight

Varley said:


> I am sorry you did not get any fun out of the job, Po8. You seem to think that I had not done it myself, sometimes on ships a lot more complicated than the NKK built bulk carriers.
> 
> *You are making assumptions, I said nothing of the kind, I know very little of your background I saw you mention the Alcan ships that's all.*
> 
> When I did jump ship to E/O (Mimco seemed to have no prospects of me being able to continue as ECO) I would cast the odd glance towards the radio room in wonder that anyone could have engineered such demarcation. Good reasons were there none. Why you think ohms law is applied differently just because it is followed in the radio room and not universally I cannot imagine.
> 
> *Again ridiculous assumption, why did you even write the last sentence? My knowledge of ohms law was quite adequte for the job thank you.*
> 
> 
> I also cannot imagine why engineering supers and chiefs engineer should prefer an uneducated tradesman (which very many of even our best E/Os were) at their beck and call than someone with at least the basics of an electrical education. (Actually I can. The former were generally used to hard work whereas the those forced by the job market rather than by instinct were often more used to sitting on their ****s for 12 hours a day, 8 with headphones on and 4 on a bar stool).
> 
> *I don't know what you're talking about I spent three years at technical college including radar ticket the MRGC was a comprehensive electronic education as you must surely know.*
> 
> It is true that as ECO I did earn more than ETO (and often had a Junior instead of a taperecorder) and that is how we started off when I got into the driving seat (well as much of a perch as I was allowed) Between 2nd and 3rd remains where I think the scale should lie but it soon became untenable in a Brit setting. If we could not make the financial equation fit a Brit solution then we got third worlder with even less education (very true then, I have no idea how that has improved). It was, indeed my lobby that reduced R/Os wage to that of 4th, what on earth possessed any of us to think that 8 hours ****sitting was worth more (sorry 8 hours ALRS correcting). The intention, however, was not to punish or degrade but to encourage those who would do more to do more. In doing so make it back up to 3rd and to keep a Brit (for a bit longer anyway). There were disappointingly few who wanted to. Frank McNeilage managed to screw that up in my opinion with a deal with the Unions to march the pay back up to 3rd with seniority awards
> 
> I truly am sorry that your great (good? mediocre?) time at sea stopped when you started being productive. That's when my great time started (and I still managed a good bit of barstool ****sitting as well).
> 
> *The size of the chip on your shoulder about the R/O's job is astonishing esp in view of the fact that you claim to have done the job yourself. Greatly, good or only mediocre? You assumptions are rude and uncalled for.*
> 
> It would be extremely disappointed if any of the 'babies' that I took directly from College (before they could get used to the ****sitting habit) had the same view of their careers as you did (I still hear from some of them from time to time, not from the one lady, an excellent technician who we, and I would not like to be part of that we, treated very badly).
> 
> You cannot be blamed, attracted to sea with the prospect of good pay and good leave for doing little unless you, your ship or another nearby were very unlucky, it is not surprising that having to put in a days useful work was unwelcome.
> *
> You do not know how well I did my job as R/O and to criticise me in that ignorance is unforgivable, you are rude and ill mannered.*
> 
> The 'Equivalence' was not especially ours (it was the North West European Navtex Exemption). Perhaps applied in a more geographically liberal fashion by Flag than its authors had intended.
> 
> You seem to have been able (another problem with those recruited from existing R/O stock) which makes it even sadder that you did not enjoy it. Dogsbody? I always felt that I had taken a step up in the status stakes but then I have always been big-headed.
> 
> *You said it!!!*
> 
> It might be fun to hear from another on the subject. Both of us are clearly biased. I intended nothing altruistic either. I was not trying to shoe-in Brits for the sake of Brits but for the sake of me having a knowing body onboard to ensure I did not have to work, or if I did, then I had someone who spoke-a-da-electric with which to communicate onboard (and for your part in that, I thank you).
> 
> *
> I'm not biased I wrote what I experienced. 25% of my work was caused by the ignorant crew spraying high pressure seawater everywhere and dismantling deck equipment to paint it.*
> 
> (Just please, please don't tell me how hard you worked when covering only the R/O's job on a cargo ship - remember I have been there, done that and wrung the beer out of the T-Shirt).


Perhaps nobody else will tell you this but you don't come over very well on the Forum but I don't expect you're going to change on my account.


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## Varley

No I am not going to change on your account but perhaps you might sample a little of you own medicine. To wit:

You clearly thought you were overworked. I pointed out that I had done the same job and on more complicated ships and did not find it so. Why? I wonder why - perhaps we never washed down or carried out maintenance on deck.

I did not impugn your knowledge of Ohms law I simply pointed out that it should be used less exclusively.

When referring to education I was pointing to the usual recruitment of E/Os (those from the Mines and Gas boards excepted) and that the R/Os' was better but that it was pity it was not more appreciated. You can learn telegraphy as a trade you cannot learn technicianing without school.

I suggested you might have had a great time at sea before you took to ETO. Where I put "?" meant that I recognised that might not be the case. To be miserable both as R/O and ETO would be a dire life indeed.

I did not say you didn't do R/O well. What I did state was that that would not take hard work on a cargo vessel. I was also careful not to say you spent time in the bar but that I did. You cannot deny that the generalisation applied to many of our ilk.

I am in no way ashamed of starting off as R/O or do I claim that I did not have a good time when I was, it is just that I am much prouder and more satisfied by progressing in the way that I did and hopefully in providing some stepping stones for others of like mind. Why have a ladder if you only intend to stay at the first level.

Your chip read some things that were not written. I should change it if I were you lest it turn you rude and tautological.

If you continue to consider me ill mannered the control panel has a perfectly good solution as is a note to the mods, of course.


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## rogd

Thank the Lord I was a lowly Leckie!!


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## Varley

Don't do yourself down. I never did.


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## holland25

After reading all the above I am glad I was lucky to avoid it all. When I left the sea I eventually managed to get involved in data communications. The internet was in the future and most of the big companies had their own private networks. My first involvement was with British Airways and Boadicea, the on line booking system.I was never very good at component level fault finding but I was quite successful at fault finding on diverse communication networks.Modems and leased lines were a big deal at the time. I progressed from BA to Philips and eventually landed a job in Melbourne looking after the operation and planning of the network of a national computer bureau.Eventually the internet arrived and things changed. I spent my final years project managing a few communications based products for Ericsson. Reading about going into the engineroom and getting dirty made me realise how lucky I had been.


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## Piecesofeight

I do not understand your evident dislike of the role of R/O. If you have done the job as you claim (got the t-shirt and so on) and know what it involved then what's not to like? I have never met or communicated with an R/O who didn't like the job and wasn't sorry it ended – except you. All the reasons you give for not respecting the job, are, if true, reasons to like it. It was a mainly administrative role with maintenance and repair responsibilities, as you know. If you so hated the role you should perhaps have gone to sea as an engineer, it sounds as though that suited you better.

You haven't made it clear where you were in the career ladder. Did you work directly for DSM as a manager? As a C/E? As superintendent? We may have met who knows although your name doesn't ring any bells. Why are you so scathing about the career choice of thousands not to say tens of thousands of other people who had an ambition to go to sea and trained for and attained the role of R/O and enjoyed it? What's wrong with that? It's the self loathing that gets me, you come across as somebody who hates the job they went to sea for, I've never read anything like it.

My main gripe about the Alcan ETO responsibilities was the Broadgate tape recorder which you have yet to address. If Denholm had obtained an exemption by 1992 under the GMDSS rules not to carry an R/O owing to duplicated equipment and a GMDSS console then why did they install the SP tape recorder at all? If they did not have such an exemption why did they not carry an R/O and electrician? To my eyes they appeared to be trying to have it both ways to the detriment of the ETO. I just felt guilty all the time at not being there to hear ships in distress but I couldn't be in the radio room because I was so obviously needed elsewhere all over the ship, all day long.

There were bits of the Alcan trip I enjoyed. The Amazon end of it was quite pleasant and meant the deck jobs could be saved for the good weather when the e/r was 46 degrees and above and the deck was cooler.

I'll tell what I hated most about the role of ETO with Alcan. It was the inability to get on top of the job owing to the constant fire-fighting. When I used to join ships as R/O often with a backlog of corrections and maintenance issues it was possible to spend the first couple of months dealing with all that and jobs arising in the meantime to reach a position where I could draw up a PM chart, stick it on the wall, and go through a rota of managable checks and procedures with the confidence that everything was working.

On the NV in five months I never ever reached that stage because almost every planned job was interrupted by one of four people, three of whom were more senior than me, whose demands could not be ignored without losing my job, and the last of whom, the cook, so obviously needed his failed hotplate that I couldn't ignore that either.

This meant that every single day started out with good intentions disrupted and wrecked to some extent by the demands of senior management. I overcame the worst of this in the first week when I got the 2/E off my back by complaining directly to the C/E and arranging a series of fortnightly meetings with him when we could compile a list of jobs to be done which I could prioritise. This meant at the very least I had some control over my work list instead of being at the beck and call of the 2/E who fortunately backed off.

Nevertheless compared to being a head of department of one as was the R/O's job, it was a crock of **** and was glad to leave. It paid for a long holiday in New Zealand and that was the only good thing about it.

. - . - .


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## trotterdotpom

LOF brought in a great training for ROs and Electricians to become Electronics Officers. For ROs it included a year at South Shields college and a year sailing as 2nd Electrician. I put in for it but they'd cancelled it because some of the people who did it got the qualifications and skinned out!

In Australia, they got rid of Electricians before they dumped the RO. The companies decided that all the electrical bizzo was covered by the engineers' training. I bet that was good for shore side leckies!

The reason ROs were on ships was for the safety of their own and other ships - back in the day, that's all there was. Everything else was a fringe benefit. Dunno how Denholm's got away with such a pointless thing as recording silence periods!

I wanted to go to sea and looked into the options. I chose the RO position and I'm glad I did. I think I'll write a book called "Round the World with Clean Fingernails".

John T


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## sparkie2182

"The companies decided that all the electrical bizzo was covered by the engineers' training. 

Lots of blue flashes.


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## Piecesofeight

Training was the killer. R/O training did not include HV which I think was because the colleges didn't want the casualties(!) or to pay the insurance. Certainly that applied to radar training where we only ever learned to f/f on the displays and then only on the signal boards not the HT circuits.

Some companies had the ETO thing better organised. P&O Princess ships had two categories of ETO, Comms and Engine, with a nod to their history. ETO Eng did lifts and engine room electrics, ETO Comms did exchanges, comms, navigation, TV, theatres and so on.

I never met a C/E who like Sparkies, they all thought it was a free ride, but in spite of that occasionally myself and others no doubt were asked to help out with some electronic problem in the e/r and did so willingly because there was payback in the form of getting things threaded, cut, welded whatever elsewhere on the ship.

As I said earlier good to have been an R/O at all. Much missed.


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## Varley

Do please change the chip. It continues to read more than is written. Perhaps I need to send more slowly.

I repeat, I ampliate, I say again, I did not dislike being an R/O and had fun doing it. It was not, however the hard work that you are making it out to be. At least not in conventional trading vessels. I was not overly skilled on the key (my pride was in keeping the kit on the top line and requiring no help to do so, unless it was up high. Don't like heights) and would have hated to be a grunt on a high traffic vessel. That I had far more fun when I had grown out of the berth does not mean that I had none when occupying it.

My time as R/O and ECO was with Marconi although Denholm managed ships figured early on and at the end of that time. E/O was with Denholm. Electrical Super started with Denholm, moved to consultant (my punishment for returning home to camp out in the IoM office, to 'be around' for the aged parents). I withered on the, by then, Anglo-Eastern vine in the early noughties and I was very grateful to be picked up by Dorchester Maritime/Bernhard Schulte. WRT to Northern Progress and Northern Venture I was the electrical input to the specification and drawing approval.

That you had not heard my name, I suggest, a good thing both from the build of the vessel and the ETO manning. I visited them a couple of times in Port Alfred and again in dock at H&W. As part of my punishment for leaving Glasgow was administering the computer planned maintenance. I still have at my feet the magnetic board with the schedule of diskette returns. (That really is a less happy story and might interest an IT man). 

The tape recorders were part of the Navtex Exemption and not our idea. Applying the exemption, of course, was. I regret I cannot now find the terms of the 'equivalence', certainly a hint of GMDSS to come but then no part of it - other administrations allowed a downgrade of W/T status to R/T and one vessel we got into management had been built to that (can't remember the flag but devilishly difficult to establish equivalence when changing to Mardep Singapore). I know it is sparkie sacrilege but I am not sure that silence periods themselves were not of doubtful significance in 'our time'. Consider that an H8 vessel did not manually watch for 16 hours a day and that only 48 minutes of that that was watched was silenced. A more truly continuous solution had been started under the 1920 Rules where the duty, later of the yet to be developed W/T autoalarm, was carried out by a certificated 'Watcher'. M Notice 17 refers. There was still no real attempt to be inclusive of all tonnage until the R/T watch receiver was introduced by when GMDSS was already in sight.

I am sorry to other readers of the thread for blowing again on my own trumpet and to do so on the same thread too.

(And I do not consider a scheme of two equal streams, ETO Plumbing and ETO Fairy Lights as anything more than empire building. You mentioned one company where I heard it's 'electronic' superintendents at the GCBS genuinely forecasting that they were establishing an empire where the ETO would get an equal shot at being chief engineer (as in without class 1 certification, only slightly less unbelievable now, when autonomy is being promoted, than then). If the work load does justify more manpower then it is obvious to me that it should be one based on seniority with the same discipline. Admittedly the one ship I did with two both were equivalent in seniority and some political juggling was prescribed to make that comfortable for all. 

One thing and only one thing irks me about starting as R/O. After 33 years of not touching a key in anger (Alvand an exception when the rather surprised Filipino R/O was dispatched in the lifeboat to test the LB transceiver with me in the RR) I ended up with any and every question about radio accounting. From the moment I came ashore in 1981 to the day I was made redundant in 2011 it was a case of "Oh, it's radios, he used to do that, give it to him".

...-.-


----------



## John Gowers

What rankles still is that when Eurofreighter went to be re-engine, on the recommendations of the Chief and Old Man I applied for and got an E/O's position. Zero seniority. Nick Dunbar (one of the few others successfully then to "cross the plates") was approached by Denholm to do the same. The bugger was offered a year's seniority.


Hi Varley,
Just came across this thread The mention of Nick Dunbar brought back memories of the Euroliner around 1974/75 where I sailed with Nick Dunbar on a couple of trips. I remember him moaning because he had first trip junior RO in the radio room and he had to go and finish off sending off some long message as the junior got cramp in his hand sending them.
John


----------



## Piecesofeight

We're nearly on the same page, well done.



> I repeat, I ampliate, I say again, I did not dislike being an R/O and had fun doing it. It was not, however the hard work that you are making it out to be.


I never said being an R/O was hard work, I have more or less agreed with you in other posts.



> I was not overly skilled on the key (my pride was in keeping the kit on the top line and requiring no help to do so, unless it was up high. Don't like heights) and would have hated to be a grunt on a high traffic vessel.


Ditto on the morse, ditto on maintenance and repairs of kit, we have more in common than you imagine. However I didn't mind heights except when the wind was from aft and blowing flue gas into my face which wasn't fun when trying to fix the radar scanner.



> That I had far more fun when I had grown out of the berth does not mean that I had none when occupying it.


There was nothing to grow out of, it was a job for life or at least until it ended with GMDSS.



> My time as R/O and ECO was with Marconi although Denholm managed ships figured early on and at the end of that time. E/O was with Denholm. Electrical Super started with Denholm, moved to consultant (my punishment for returning home to camp out in the IoM office, to 'be around' for the aged parents). I withered on the, by then, Anglo-Eastern vine in the early noughties and I was very grateful to be picked up by Dorchester Maritime/Bernhard Schulte. WRT to Northern Progress and Northern Venture I was the electrical input to the specification and drawing approval.


At last some history, thank you, and some relevance to Alcan.



> That you had not heard my name, I suggest, a good thing both from the build of the vessel and the ETO manning. I visited them a couple of times in Port Alfred and again in dock at H&W. As part of my punishment for leaving Glasgow was administering the computer planned maintenance. I still have at my feet the magnetic board with the schedule of diskette returns. (That really is a less happy story and might interest an IT man).


Well I'm an IT man these days so bore me some time.



> The tape recorders were part of the Navtex Exemption and not our idea. Applying the exemption, of course, was. I regret I cannot now find the terms of the 'equivalence', certainly a hint of GMDSS to come but then no part of it - other administrations allowed a downgrade of W/T status to R/T and one vessel we got into management had been built to that (can't remember the flag but devilishly difficult to establish equivalence when changing to Mardep Singapore). I know it is sparkie sacrilege but I am not sure that silence periods themselves were not of doubtful significance in 'our time'. Consider that an H8 vessel did not manually watch for 16 hours a day and that only 48 minutes of that that was watched was silenced. A more truly continuous solution had been started under the 1920 Rules where the duty, later of the yet to be developed W/T autoalarm, was carried out by a certificated 'Watcher'. M Notice 17 refers. There was still no real attempt to be inclusive of all tonnage until the R/T watch receiver was introduced by when GMDSS was already in sight.


SPs needed to be monitored at the time or they were meaningless.

After 28 years I've had an answer to my question as to why the tape recorder was there, thank you for that.

.-.-.


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## sparkie2182

"when trying to fix the radar scanner."

Water in the waveguide.

Every time.


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## Piecesofeight

> Water in the waveguide.


I dare say that happens but fortunately I was spared that particular evil. 

My reasons for being up there were more to do with checking gearbox oil levels and the condition of the V belt, and in the early days washing the soot off the scanner face.

Raytheon radars were a joy having a transparent plastic sight tube for the oil level at the front of the equipment casing which went hard and opaque over time with age then split dripping oil on the platform and down the access ladder. On two different ships I had the dubious pleasure of having to replace the hardened plastic "sight glass" with a new tube and refill the gearbox, hence the flue gas story.

I did however have to replace the main bearings on the S band scanner on the Bibi (William Reardon Smith / TMM) in 1991, we did that at sea off Florida and is a story in itself for another time. RIP Captain Bob Baker and Chief Steward Dave Hartshorne, both lovely blokes, much missed.


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## P.Arnold

sparkie2182 said:


> "when trying to fix the radar scanner."
> 
> Water in the waveguide.
> 
> Every time.


And grease in the rotating joint as a result of over enthusiastic R/Os
Pumping in the grease, following the planned maintenance manual, but waiting for the squiggly grease worm to come out of the grease nipple, just like you did on the ball joints of a Morris 1000. (Other vehicles as well, no doubt) 
Goodness I have left myself open for abuse, particularly the squiggly from the nipple.
Ah well such is life
Peter


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## david freeman

*key tappers, and shunter club under the Red Ensign*

I am dis appointed how you old 60's hands as key tappers look at Your selves. As a bugining Engineer cadet and college time [some] spent at South Shields, and in digs in Julian Avenue, with fellow cadets and trainee radio operators, we were all of late teenage years, and good pals in the digs.
What I believe you may feel disappointed with is the hierichy and technical skills need to run the whole ship? and who had the brains to be the boss, i.e. master.
The regulation are written in stone, and all though the galley boy can/could become captain, the rest of us had to change career, and do time before the mast, starting off as a cabin boy?? or there abouts.{deck watchkeeper?}
As engineers one could achieve the role of C/E, but not the lecky, unless he did 13 years on a watch as an enginner {quoting regs 1894.}
The 1970 regs for MS did not change much in these conditions. 
I have noted in my career since 1960 in the engine room, the importance of electronics/computer and to some extent electric ac motor design are challenging to the engineer officer and the radio, and E/O make up some of the essential knowledge in the controls and running of the ship steam/diesel/gas turbine, and the top post both in the eng dept and deck depart, needs men ladies of wide knowledge and the abilty to lead.
The MCA 'auntie' has some homework to do, to utalise the minimum crew numbers to their best effect in running a modern ship?
Answers on a post card please. Any of you deckies have the eyesight {Colour visio] to become effiecent professional in any challenging post on a modern vessel, all though you may have started out as a deck boy


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## trotterdotpom

#61 . "Training was the killer. R/O training did not include HV which I think was because the colleges didn't want the casualties(!) or to pay the insurance. Certainly that applied to radar training where we only ever learned to f/f on the displays and then only on the signal boards not the HT circuits."

When I did my Radar course (Hull) we covered the whole box and dice including HT. I always found it "amusing" when you were sitting on the deck surrounded by bits of radar and the Old Man would pop his head round the corner and say: "Have you checked the fuses?"

These days, my wife thinks I don't know how to change a light bulb and that's OK with me.

I got on OK with most Chief Engineers but I agree, there were a few d*ckheads. Generally, I admired their knowledge. One who "liked the cut of my gib" was a bit of a concern!

Don't worry about David, he's a "Quisling."

John T


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## Piecesofeight

> When I did my Radar course (Hull) we covered the whole box and dice including HT. I always found it "amusing" when you were sitting on the deck surrounded by bits of radar and the Old Man would pop his head round the corner and say: "Have you checked the fuses?"


Lucky you, I was at Greenhithe and while the radar training was good it left us a bit short when the magnetron, klystron and TR cell went up the wall but I got round that by swapouts which usually improved things. Not my preferred way of fault finding but it was effective.



> I got on OK with most Chief Engineers but I agree, there were a few d*ckheads. Generally, I admired their knowledge. One who "liked the cut of my gib" was a bit of a concern!


I used to make a point of making friends with at least two people on board, first the cook, then the 2nd engineer. Because we all need to eat and as R/O I often needed metalwork fixed for which I didn't have the tools. The 2/E would talk to the fitter who would then make me a threaded pipe, or weld a bracket or whatever and in return I would fix cassette recorders or whatever came my way. It worked very well.



> Don't worry about David, he's a "Quisling."


I can fight my corner. It's a good job we didn't meet in 1992 I would have had a few choice things to say to him and vice versa.


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## Troppo

Piecesofeight said:


> Training was the killer. R/O training did not include HV which I think was because the colleges didn't want the casualties(!) or to pay the insurance. Certainly that applied to radar training where we only ever learned to f/f on the displays and then only on the signal boards not the HT circuits.
> 
> 
> As I said earlier good to have been an R/O at all. Much missed.



In Oz, we were trained on HV in both the MRGC and (especially) the radar course....


----------



## Piecesofeight

Perhaps I phrased it badly. We knew what HV was and we knew how it was generated, but we didn't do fault finding in the shack on the HV components and so I went to sea with less of that knowledge than I would have liked. As I say I suspect the college was trying to avoid accidents.


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## Troppo

I never really had a problem with the Engineers I sailed with.

Of course, there was the odd disagreement, but it was never based on the job, rather the personalities.

However, as we all know, one becomes rather expert at getting on with others at sea...!

The tape recorder/auto alarm thing was puzzling...mind you, it came from the same brains trust (MCA) who decided that the 500 watch could be dispensed with ashore prior to the full implementation of the GMDSS on 1 Feb 99...and then closed all the properly engineered coast stations and replaced them with a 250w Skanti operating into a whip antenna....but I digress..

I actually enjoyed both parts of the job - operating and fixing..

I had decided to go ashore once the pot of gold was offered...but if I stayed, I would have gone onto the bridge. I did a lot of makey learnie mate time, and it was very interesting.


----------



## sparkie2182

Diverging slightly.....
I was always a little surprised at the absence of a fault-finding requirement on the VHF kit
as part the PMG/MRGC courses.
Lots on the theory..... discriminator circuits etc.....the Part 2 exam was restricted to mere fuse location and change........a two minute task at the end of the three hour practical exam.
Considering the preponderance of VHF at sea.....it seemed a bit odd.


----------



## Piecesofeight

Certainly. I know the bridge thought we could fix nearly everything and I used to be handed Motorola walkie talkies packed with surface mount components which I didn't have a hope of fixing so had to hand them back and say "Sorry, no can do".

Re the VHFs I mostly encountered the Sailor RT144 where the only problem I remember was the volume control wearing out but again, like the walkie talkies above they were so densely put together they were no fun to take apart, but fortunately in both cases were a very rare request so it didn't matter too much.

Much more work was generated by the radars.


----------



## Piecesofeight

> I never really had a problem with the Engineers I sailed with.


No you're right, I'm allowing my memory to be jaundiced by later years when I ran into C/Es who preferrred ETOs wtih a shipyard background and thought ex R/Os weren't too keen on the e/r work which has more than a grain of truth in it. Certainly the early years with Wallemship were ok when myself and the engineers had very little to do with each other apart from meeting at the dinner table and in the bar.



> The tape recorder/auto alarm thing was puzzling...mind you, it came from the same brains trust (MCA) who decided that the 500 watch could be dispensed with ashore prior to the full implementation of the GMDSS on 1 Feb 99...and then closed all the properly engineered coast stations and replaced them with a 250w Skanti operating into a whip antenna....but I digress..


I've tried hard to remember what happened with the auto alarm on the Alcan ships and my conclusion is that it must have been left on all the time and tested morning and evening. I don't remember it ever going off so perhaps I was just lucky because we weren't set up to deal with the consequences as in no watch keeping and so on, I don't think I ever looked for or found a morse key on the NV although there must have been one somewhere in a cupboard.


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## Troppo

Piecesofeight said:


> No you're right, I'm allowing my memory to be jaundiced by later years when I ran into C/Es who preferrred ETOs wtih a shipyard background and thought ex R/Os weren't too keen on the e/r work which has more than a grain of truth in it.


The Engine Room?! Ahhh, no thanks old chap, I would get my boiler suit dirty...


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## Varley

John Gowers said:


> What rankles still is that when Eurofreighter went to be re-engine, on the recommendations of the Chief and Old Man I applied for and got an E/O's position. Zero seniority. Nick Dunbar (one of the few others successfully then to "cross the plates") was approached by Denholm to do the same. The bugger was offered a year's seniority.
> 
> 
> Hi Varley,
> Just came across this thread The mention of Nick Dunbar brought back memories of the Euroliner around 1974/75 where I sailed with Nick Dunbar on a couple of trips. I remember him moaning because he had first trip junior RO in the radio room and he had to go and finish off sending off some long message as the junior got cramp in his hand sending them.
> John


It is good to hear of those times, John. I am not sure Nick would think that well of me now. Harry Gilbert had the idea of us both taking turns as Super and as ECO Samudra Suraksha. I put the kibosh on it - having "Got the foreman's job at last" I was not going to relinquish it so easily. There was also the matter of leave. Or rather the matter of there seeming to be no opportunity in Harry's scheme for either of us to get any! (I doubt the Junior concerned was Phyllis. She, he married).

Nick did get the plum seagoing job (I hope he thought so) on Alliance and then left to join the Antarctic Survey and I am sure is now retired.

But the imbalance of that year's seniority still rankles!


----------



## Varley

P.Arnold said:


> And grease in the rotating joint as a result of over enthusiastic R/Os
> Pumping in the grease, following the planned maintenance manual, but waiting for the squiggly grease worm to come out of the grease nipple, just like you did on the ball joints of a Morris 1000. (Other vehicles as well, no doubt)
> Goodness I have left myself open for abuse, particularly the squiggly from the nipple.
> Ah well such is life
> Peter


I am sure that an incident on one of the Seaspread Class was caused by Planned Maintenance too. Brass terminal on HV transformer in alternator excitation fixed with nut and bell washer. Call was for 'check tightness'. Precise torquing up of nut with bell washer not plain sailing (with spring washer it is more intuitive). Stud sheared in service. Conductor flapped about, short circuit. Differential protection impressively effective at minimising damage although the positioning ability was still lost.


----------



## Varley

Piecesofeight said:


> Lucky you, I was at Greenhithe and while the radar training was good it left us a bit short when the magnetron, klystron and TR cell went up the wall but I got round that by swapouts which usually improved things. Not my preferred way of fault finding but it was effective.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to make a point of making friends with at least two people on board, first the cook, then the 2nd engineer. Because we all need to eat and as R/O I often needed metalwork fixed for which I didn't have the tools. The 2/E would talk to the fitter who would then make me a threaded pipe, or weld a bracket or whatever and in return I would fix cassette recorders or whatever came my way. It worked very well.
> 
> 
> 
> I can fight my corner. It's a good job we didn't meet in 1992 I would have had a few choice things to say to him and vice versa.


Let me assure you that had I known that someone so aggressively unambitious was slated to hold my baby I would have gone out of my way to ensure you were not offered such psychologically inappropriate employment. (Even if this meant shooting myself in the foot as you seem to have been effective).

I must also defend the three chiefs you claim to have bullied you. I knew of only one, and he long gone by then, who met that description (and those he did bully seemed oblivious to it). That defence, with as little evidence against as for, must necessarily be blind. As for your one exception, were he and I still with the Diamond D I would recommend that he went somewhere and got the sainthood beaten out of him.


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## Piecesofeight

Firstly I must ask which charm school you went to because I must ensure my own offspring avoid it for fear of blighting the rest of their lives.

Moving on as one must ...



> Let me assure you that had I known that someone so aggressively unambitious was slated to hold my baby I would have gone out of my way to ensure you were not offered such psychologically inappropriate employment.


Thank you for the compliment.



> (Even if this meant shooting myself in the foot as you seem to have been effective).


Thank you for the compliment, here's the proof that I was effective.

[Link removed for privacy by op]



> I must also defend the three chiefs you claim to have bullied you.


This is a complete and utter misrepresentation of what I said and does not accord with my history at sea. I did not work on more than one Alcan ship and therefore cannot have worked for three c/e known to you. I worked for one and he was the good one. I'm not going to quote names or even initials on here outside PM because I don't want to get personal or enter a slanging match.



> I knew of only one, and he long gone by then, who met that description (and those he did bully seemed oblivious to it). That defence, with as little evidence against as for, must necessarily be blind. As for your one exception, were he and I still with the Diamond D I would recommend that he went somewhere and got the sainthood beaten out of him.


The one I'm thinking of was fairly shot away by the time we parted company so I'm certainly not going to cast aspersions in that direction. I think he'd spent too much time with the CPP (controllable pitch propeller - which was causing problems) but was a jovial soul.

May I say what a pleasure it has been sparring with you and as somebody is reputed to have said to Churchill, if you were my husband I'd poison your coffee.


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## sparkie2182

If he were my wife I would poison my own.


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## Piecesofeight

LOL!

It's all bluster, if we ever met in a pub he'd be fine after a pint, or three. I'm not sure how many it would take.


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## Varley

Ah, the 'not in a team' code! (Stop! There was no such code! Not that I know of anyway).

If you say so but the gist still seems to me to impugn the Chiefs and your unhappinesses as only Denholm's I am pleased to hear that they were not and that you managed to be miserable working for someone else as well. Perhaps it wasn't all our fault after all.

For once you are right, a few pints would probably allow me the loquacity to persuade you of your life course error (and I do not think I am not being 'fine' here either. As you have pointed out you are 'returning service' ).

However the only time I have found that alcohol had an effect of anything but a lessening of ability was when I received a very public call from the new Chairman (A-E) after an Email of mine to a colleague in Hong Kong (one who had seen the light earlier and resigned although I didn't know it at the time) and which could have been called bullying. That night the gin did make me feel better, very frightening even for one well within the envelope of alcoholic. It certainly drove me dry for a day or two. The Text?:

Along the lines of "What about an organigram ............ we mushrooms no longer even see the crack of light round the door when the open it to throw in the manure".The Chairman for heaven's sake, surely with better things to do.

(Regrettably the Churchill quote is apocryphal)

Edit:
Line two is not what I meant as written. To wish anyone unhappiness would be vile. To be glad that all the unhappiness was not caused by Denholm is not so unbalanced and is what I meant to say.

And that is where I leave this almost one to one conversation.


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## P.Arnold

first trip junior RO in the radio room 

75- 77 signed on Denholms GTV’s as ECO, With junior R/Os who either had less than 6 months sea time or needed that little bit more experience. I personally cannot recall too many issues with any of the 8 I sailed with.

Silence Periods, wasn’t it about this time (75-77) that H8 watchkeeping changed from 2 on 2 off; to 4 on and the balance of 4 being used as and when necessary, effectively making “manual” monitoring of SP’s in effective.

Incidentally, I have enjoyed my life throughout, irrespective of career position, changes.

However my wife does say I let most things go by, except a blonde with big boobs.


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## Varley

At least we don't seem to have done you any harm Peter although I think the GTVs offered a radically different opportunity to doing the same in "The Outside Fleet" as we used to rather snobbishly refer to them. I was just joining my first when you were leaving (John Benn, Asialiner then regular on Eurofreighter until re-engining). Only BFO for me. My regret at the time was that they ended my regret now is that I made no effort to encourage/allow my juniors any part in MY new empire. Had they not ended when they did I would not have gone on to equally interesting and longer lasting 'things' elsewhere - all enjoyable. Would that it were possible for everyone to be as happy in their employment as I was, a rare and very lucky thing. I can see a FT4C maintenance manual, along with others, as I type (not that I sailed with the C engine) - they would have been chucked if I hadn't got them. Quite ridiculous I know but it is Nostalgia.

(I don't remember that change in general watchkeeping regime - perhaps a detail in the Navtex exemption? But then I only did one bit of morse work throughout - John Gatherer demanded that I take the Christmas morning weather forecast. No, not to give the boy an hour off, but so that no one else would know it wasn't bad enough to keep us alongside Bremerhaven until after lunch - his prognosis.


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## P.Arnold

David

I found being an ECO was so different and satisfying. I had all the help I could wish for from every engineer, some may have thought me green, but in the absence of criticism I was comfortable in the tasks we did together. I was on the Eurofreighter in Falmouth when we went to BFO, and the ginormous CPP.

I always, nearly, spent the last watchkeeping stint of the day in the radio room, chatting, as you do. Only one R/O showed any interest in the career change.

When Comsat General came onboard to discuss Satcom (76 ish) I thought times they are a changing. In subsequent years I must have met hundreds of R/O, most of whom had no inclination.

In 1986, I ended up selling the ruddy things, Satcoms, that is.


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## Piecesofeight

JRC built the best Inmarsat A above decks equipment. One flywheel and one motor to drive it.

STC built one too but it had four flywheels, four motors to drive them with eight bearings, all of which I had to change on the NV. When I joined the NV the noise on the monkey island was like a waterfall and it was all coming from those bearings.

P.


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## Varley

Agreed again. I had a JUE 5a (Marisat Not 35 or 45) terminal still working in this century. It could no longer work telex (something to do with LES addressing) but managed Email quite well over a voice circuit.

(We would have liked JRC kit on the NKK Newbuildings just as the yard would have liked Alcan to pay the extra for it but they were not on the makers list. With quality comes price and the money had really been stretched in building in Japan in the first place).


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## Bill.B

JRC JUE-45 best ever satcom made.
Marconi Oceanray worst satcom ever made. It was beaten by the dual system Oceanray, closely followed by the Mobile Telesystems 9100 at least the dome fell off and there was nothing to fix unlike the Oceanray.


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## Varley

Surely the ESZ-5(?)000 was the worst ever. Although my colleagues in Hong Kong were persuaded to put a non approved terminal aboard which was never commissioned. I don't remember the Oceanray as all that troublesome although no one approached JRC for reliability - not with steerable aerials anyway.


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## Troppo

The JRC W/T equipment, particularly the last generation, was really good. 

Their GMDSS gear was awful...


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## Varley

One client and we had a bad year with two new sisters with first generation Furuno GMDSS outfits. That generation went on to reveal further built in issues (like memory support batteries). The third vessel came out with JRC kit despite the owners having been offered compensation for the first two. I have no memories either way on that kit but it would be then have been second generation (or at least first generation "plus")

Warranty periods may cover infantile failures but they do not cover their drain on management resources. Duplication usually guaranteed and exemption would be granted (one surveyor, by then not a specialist, suggested it was not necessary because that was what duplication was designed for - not altogether wrong but no defence against port state control)


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## Bill.B

#92 Troppo I fully agree. JRC console on Dart Atlantica was a lovely station to use. As you said GMDSS was another matter. Most ships who had it when I inspected them could not operate the telex and struggled with the Sat C units. Nothing was intuitive. My Dutch colleague was the JRC man and approached each job with trepidation. He spent days trying to fix the JSS SSB units. Retrofitting a different GMDSS station was a nightmare due to the SSB combined PA/PSU/Battery charger. Their big ship radars were pretty good though. 
Sorry Varley never came across an ESZ5000 satcom. Marconi like JRC never seemed to get it right when GMDSS came along. Furuno nailed it in all avenues.


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## Varley

A 2006 post by Ron reminds me that it was the Navidyne ESZ 8000, hopeless and did not remain long on Sperry's books after they took over.

The never commissioned terminal my Hong Kong colleagues acquired was made by RDI (Radar Devices Inc.).

For the first GMDSS kit support in the Northeast UK support under warranty was fine. My later experience in a worldwide trading fleet with many Furuno radars was not so good especially spares. They had an awful lot of models and variants on the go which cannot have made it easy but we did once get down to having no working radar and that is a position no administration is going to agree to a an exemption. A new set was available and expediency dictated that we purchased it instead of repairing so sailed with one. Not unusual to have an exemption on those terms.

(We did have a lightning strike which took out both radars, Decca I think in an exceedingly difficult port. I never asked how she got to the port where support had been arranged!) 

JRC were second off the mark with the S band solid state transceiver but we did not meet the criteria for a set on trial discount. HAd to be regular in and out of Japan so they could visit their baby. I did manage to get a SharpEye fitted but had to beg on hands and knees.


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## Baulkham Hills

You are so right Navidyne Satcom A was the most useless piece of equipment I think I ever sailed with, 4 gyros in the dome constantly failing and in the BDE 4 PCB's which were matched so all had to be replaced to have a hope of working.
The Sperry replacement I think had 8 gyros but was rubbish as well. Eventually JRC Satcom A was fitted which was absolutely great.


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## Troppo

The best GMDSS gear?

Thrane and Thrane Inm C
Skanti DSC9001 DSC controller
Skanti TRP 8000 series or 9000 series HF


Streets ahead.


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## sparkie2182

Seconded.


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## Bill.B

Agree T&T 3020 Saat C was the best Sat C ever. However they mucked it up when the ID went to the antenna and it was a case of registering one if you changed the antenna. Furuno never fell into that trap and the Falcon 15 onwards beat the T&T hands down.
Sailor 2000 telex and DSC were my favourite but the SSB had huge PA failure issues. Later Sailor systems were pretty poor. Whoever came up with the SSB/Telex system with no screen should have been kicked in the Kroners. You had to read the printer to know what was going on. It should never have been type approved. Skanti SSB was a good unit but the keypads didn’t last same for vhf and DSC modems. Most American made marine equipment was way below the rest of the world manufacturers. Magnavox Satnav being the exception.


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## Dave McGouldrick

#94 
MV Crown Monarch (Cruise ship): First survey after R/Os had been given the heave, it turned out that none of the deck officers had a GMDSS ticket. The surveyor decreed that ship was going nowhere. The owner paid ( don't know how much) for a lecturer from NY to come down, sail (using his ticket for the regulation) and do the course for the mates and old man during the 7 day cruise.
Nice little number for him.....


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## sparkie2182

Lots of corners being cut there......yet another of the many horror stories which reached my ears about those days.
More than difficult to see how there was no coverage after the R/O's had been beached.....but no surprise.
Wray Castle ran a 6 day GMDSS GOC course covering 47 hours full time and were accused of "corner cutting" initially.
Other colleges operated a standard 2 week course with extra hours over the intervening weekend if required.


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## Troppo

All those regulations and procedures we held sacred for almost a century - thrown out the porthole.

GMDSS technology is superior to the old W/T system, BUT where it all falls down is the lack of a dedicated operator.

In a distress situation, the old man and mates will all be too busy saving the ship/fighting the fire/readying the boats to talk on the radio.

There should have been a dedicated ship's electronics officer (an ETO...), whose emergency station was the GMDSS gear.


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## Piecesofeight

Even that wouldn't work. That's the very time the C/E would be screaming at you over the w/t that you're needed in the engine room. Why put anybody in that position? That's most of the reason I hated the Northern Venture, I was at the beck and call of too many people, sometimes simultaneously. As an R/O I was responsible only to the Old Man and everybody else had to ask nicely.


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## sparkie2182

I never met a shipmaster on the GOC who would have disagreed.
Surely the most unpopular mandatory qualification in UK maritime history.


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## Troppo

sparkie2182 said:


> I never met a shipmaster on the GOC who would have disagreed.
> Surely the most unpopular mandatory qualification in UK maritime history.



Was certainly the case in Oz. In the course of my job, I got to speak to lots of masters and mates...they all hated GMDSS.


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## trotterdotpom

Troppo said:


> Was certainly the case in Oz. In the course of my job, I got to speak to lots of masters and mates...they all hated GMDSS.


Well, it was another job for them to do, wasn't it? Don't suppose they got paid any more for it.

All those times they told me that I didn't do anything, I should have replied: "Be careful what you wish for!"

John T


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## Troppo

trotterdotpom said:


> Well, it was another job for them to do, wasn't it? Don't suppose they got paid any more for it.
> 
> All those times they told me that I didn't do anything, I should have replied: "Be careful what you wish for!"
> 
> John T



Ha...yes, indeed...


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## Varley

I think we should hear some opinions from the officers of 'third world', as we thought of it in the wayback. With an extra body, unproductive save for icebergs and bad driving, they would have the field to themselves.

How many casualty situations did any of us actually take an effective part in (not just heard at a great distance courtesy of the sacred silence period)? I 'controlled the distress' of Mohamedia in 1975 and sometime before that we responded to an Urgency broadcast from a Liberian tanker anchored off Socotra (where, according to 'The Pilot', the last cases of canabalism had been recorded. Perhaps justifying XXX) doing some engine work "And from the shore they are shooting at us" we were dismissed after a brief exchange of greetings. 

If I had had very many more instances to my name in the ten years it was in the job description I fear I would have started running out of people willing to sail with me as did Jonah.

Any dislike I have of SOLAS is that it concentrates too much on what to do when in trouble, like distress communications and too little on avoiding such situation by, for instance, having a qualifies and practiced/fluent electrical specialist onboard (and I don't remember being overworked even when I was just that). 

GMDSS introduced for the first time mandated 'public correspondence', as we knew it. The reason being that it was recognised that one might be able to arrange a first stitch by seeking advice/information before the additional eight were required.


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## trotterdotpom

David, you seem to forget that back in the olden days, the electric wireless was all we had. If you contributed to the saving of one life that probably justified your existence. 

The world moved on, we all know that.

John T


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## Varley

I remember it well John T. And in those days that was all the 1599's had as well although without the benefit of W/T or a W/Ter (and I cannot but agree that W/T in cir***stances where accuracy and intelligibility was essential W/T before telex was 'the thing'). Half my R/O time was pre-telex. Weather and Navwarnings, yes, safety requirements but still the majority of hours were put in watching or commercially working.

The only R/Os with a workload worthy of the name (in terms of radios anyway) were on high traffic vessels and their work had how much to do with safety? None until that iceberg came round.

(I have to say that Mohamedia was a matter of relaying information from the French warship via Djibouti on 8 MHz to those listening in on MF locally, the warship did not or could not communicate locally until in close range and she was already busy in the rescue when we came up to her. Aqabaradio kept telling me how many cattle there were onboard and I kept telling him I wasn't interested in cattle but people, information that was not forthcoming. At the time we were told that all had been saved but I read in a later publication that one was lost. We didn't wait to see her sink although the water was tippling over a forward hatch coming and she was clearly doomed).

I only bang on on the same-oh line because we do not all seem to have realised that things have moved on. And wrt to electrical expertise perhaps not as much as one might think.

Those true heroes on the transmitter key of the casualty might well have reflected that money might have been better spent preventing their predicament rather than trusting them to show their metal. I am glad I was never tested.


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## wsrmb01

*"How many casualty situations did any of us actually take an effective part in"*

Well, in my short sea career, I had the occasion to actually send out a XXX call, followed by an SOS call a few months later. Possibly suspected as being some kind of mercenary?
My first trip at sea on my own (20-yo) was VERY interesting & eventful to say the least.
I flew to Thessaloniki in Greece, latter part of 1973 to join the Chemical Carrier MV EID. When leaving Heathrow, we all were taken down on the tarmac next to the plane hold and had to identify our luggage to an official. There was much carry-on re the flight, as I soon found out why. On arriving at Thessaloniki, I was picked up by the Military at the Airport desk, (Guns at the ready), when looking for the agent. I was taken to some Military compound and questioned by a Translator, with some Colonel types eyeing me suspiciously. And yes, the guards at the back all had machine guns across their chest, hands at the ready. This was quite worrying. After much searching of my suitcase and multiple explanations of my movements, the translator seemed to be trying to convince the others that I was who I said I was. The RADIO OPERATORS HANDBOOK, and my blues & whites helped. I was then taken to another room with 5 or 6 soldiers in attendance, and thought..is this a firing squad!!
Eventually, after about 30 minutes that seemed a lifetime to me, the translator told me do exactly as I’m told and all will be well. I was then taken by the military and driven to the Ship, where the 1st Officer was mighty relieved to see me. I appeared to have landed in Greece at the time of the revolt against the ’COLONELS’ military Junta ruling, by students in Athens & Thessaloniki. After that, there was a curfew, and we would watch the Tanks come off ships and roll through the town, then loaded up again later to go elsewhere. This went on for about a week methinks. Anyway, THAT was day1!
A few months later on the same ship MV EID/GQBE, there seemed to have been some erratic movements reported by the third mate, on vessels nearby. It was discovered it was US that had lost our automatic steering, so the debate was started whether I should transmit URGENT or SAFETY signals. I was ordered to go the XXX route to advise other shipping of our predicament… Ah so, I remember those days having some shots at ‘steering’ the ship across the atlantic, much to the annoyance of those trying to dine, if I turned the wheel too much…..
To the SOS…Our illustrious captain (Forget his name now), was married to an American woman, and I noticed that ALL his phrases, etc, were becoming ‘americanised’. Just before he went on leave, he ordered the very colourful American METRIC charts for the bridge, and insisted that these be used upon receipt, instead of the admiralty charts. I should say, the shipowners were Marine transport Lines of New York (MATRALINES). So, we have the situation of a retired RFA Captain taken onboard as token Master, and a new set of charts. To cut a LONG story short, we are near Cape Verde (not far from Rio De Janerio), BRAZIL, 8 miles off the coast. We are 18ft or so draft, if I recall correctly, and as it turned out, the officer of the watch plots course on METRIC chart which he has gone into autopilot thinking it is the 6 FATHOM line.. well, the inevitable happens. I’m in the Shack and think we have just had a couple of real big waves, but after several of these, and some screaming from the bridge, I knew what was coming. SOS. The 1st Mate appeared on scene and immediately told me to ready myself for an SOS, then assist where required. The Mate sent the retired RFA master to his cabin (to keep him out of the way, I believe), and he took command. He was Danish & VERY competent. He would also keep shipping updated by the VHF Ch16. We ALL did as he ordered and he eventually got us off the bottom after a worry we were going to break up.
We had ships standing by for assistance, as the weather was wicked, but I remember taking soundings with the 3rd Mate, and the small foreign crew rushing about trying to retrieve belongings..idiots…Anyway, we limped on to SANTOS, Brazil, our destination, and had emergency repairs on the corrugated bottom, had a few good days/nights in Santos, before heading back to a Grilling by officials in our ‘HOME’ port of PASADENA on the Houston ship Channel. Tetraethyl lead was our Cargo..so there was much ado about health checks, etc, I remember that!
I NEVER told my parents any of this, especially the Greek affair, and I wondered what was ahead of me on my next vessel. That was on the Fyffes Reefer MV MANZANARES (Aug/Sept’74 to Jan’75), and it was a pleasure cruise compared to my MV EID adventure……..


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## James_C

Things may have moved on but not necessarily for the better. 
Having been involved in a number of incidents post GMDSS where my own ship responded to either an Urgency or Mayday I can perhaps offer some perspective from a Deckie on whom GMDSS was inflicted.
As an example, at the last Pan-Pan where we were the on scene vessel the bridge telephones (1 mobile, 1 fixed), email and RT were being worked constantly between ourselves, the casualty vessel, CG Helo, Coastguard shoreside and our own company all wanting to talk to us. Not forgetting internal vessel comms such as when launching/operating our FRC.
On the bridge there was the four of us for a large chunk of the time - Master and all three mates - (although we lost the 2nd mate when we had to launch our FRC) and the volume of communications was an enormous and unwelcome distraction whilst trying to cope with the job in hand. It's worth pointing out again that we weren't even the vessel in trouble! 
I know a few individuals who've had serious onboard incidents e.g. fire/collision/grounding etc and they all the same thing - the volume of communications is simply too much to deal whilst trying to manage the onboard emergency.
In this modern world of instant communications by multiple means then a dedicated individual to handle them in emergencies is more necessary than ever before.


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## Varley

#111 . As I implied, far to exciting for Mrs V's little boy. In statistical terms two incidents in 3 years suggests to me that I would prefer not to have sailed with you merely to have enjoyed a beer somewhere ashore (and not even that anywhere around the Aegean).


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## wsrmb01

#113 
I recall sitting in one of the Bars in SANTOS, and got chatting with fellow tars, some of whom who had been waiting to assist if necessary, as it turned out. I had heard a fellow talking about the situation, and jumped in that I was that R/O. What a good day on the beer we had, followed by the obligatory female company to 'look after' our spending. The Barman was enthralled about this 'exciting' life as I recall. The medical checks on returning to Pasadena were quite heavy going, due to our Tetra-ethyl lead cargo. What fun days indeed. If my parents knew the half, I would have been prevented from sailing again, likely!


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## Varley

#112 

That does introduce us to some fact rather than opinion. However I would suggest that that was a symptom of being able to communicate without the volume being rationed by bandwidth or expertise. There are two solutions to processing communications. Have enough people (perhaps applications) to process it or have only that volume of communications that can be handled.

Look at how the cost of commercial working has evolved. As hangers-on encroach on the husbanding and regulation of shipping each era of communications ends with the volume being rationed (sometimes not just at its ending). Taking my own era with W/T giving way to ToR there was very soon an expansion the volume of characters exchanged even if not much difference in the amount of intelligence it conveyed. At least telex (including by satellite) allowed only the usership ashore to become inflated. When Email came along only the dogs were excluded from access to the communications, there being none of those onboard everyone else expected to be able to have their little piece of empire building catered for.

I have sat in the emergency HQ ashore plugged in by 'phone. It would be interesting to see the timeline of whether our multiple advices reached the appropriate ears onboard before they had come to the same conclusion. I don't think any advice given was wrong but it was not limited to that which was asked for or that which the ship could not provide for herself. 

I imagine that the nearest you would have come to that scenario, pre GMDSS, would be on a 1599er and even then communications with the shore, if any, would have been to one dedicated officer in the coast station. There would have been no dedicated operator onboard. They would not necessarily have had more than three (two?) officers to man the bridge and field any communications barrage anyway.

It simply was not possible to provide communications between so many interested parties. Whilst suggesting that it should be rationed during an emergency would be met with derision however I have repeatedly made the point that procedures (such as engaging Class as the go-to application for determining damage status/remedy) must be based on a credible accident short of hopeless. This would, in my view, restrict the avenues for communication to the GMDSS mandatory outfit. Voice to local participants only and printed via Sat C to the MRCC in control. IOur drills however continued to used Email, Satphone, Satfax! without appreciation of the bandwidth that would be available in a maximum credible accident.

More is not always better. The final destination of 'more' is 'too much'.


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## Ron Stringer

David I am in total agreement with you about the need to limit the amount of communication demanded, and provided for, in an emergency. One benefit of the limited facilities available during my time at sea (pre-TOR, pre-satcom) was the absolute necessity to prioritise. Only the most urgent and essential message exchange was possible because the transmission rate was slow - it all had to go through one transmit/receive channel (either Morse radiotelegraphy or radiotelephony) and be controlled by one person - the R/O. Since available time was limited, there was no spare capacity for long-winded or extraneous messages.

That arrangement concentrated minds aboard and ashore. The downside (apart from difficulties in establishing initial contact) was the inevitable delay involved in the exchange of information - translation from spoken or written language to Morse on board and reverse translation ashore at a coast station, relay of information between the coast station and the shore subscriber) but even that played a positive rôle in determining priorities and filtering out non-essentials.

I shudder to think of the present seamless end-to-end arrangements with those ashore - owners, charterers, Class and everyone including the dog - able to dial up and demand to speak to the Master, the Chief Engineer and the Manager of the Duty-Free Store.


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## sparkie2182

The comms involvement in the loss of Achilles Lauro is an interesting read.


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## Varley

A quick google fails to find it for me Sparkie. I didn't know/remember that she had sunk in service (of course I remember the hijacking). A pointer would be appreciated.


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## rogd

Hello all you electrical bretheren.
I've followed this conversation with considerable interest.
I served a pretty comprehensive apprenticeship with Mullards, apprentice training school-basic engineering skills, machine tools etc-time in the plant maintenance dept covering all the 'heavy' stuff, test equipment and instrumentation dept, and I came out of my time with City and Guilds Full Tech in Industrial Electronics.
I went away to sea with BP in 1970 and needless to say I was totally lost at first. 
When I found my feet I didn't find ships particularly difficult.
I ended up with Manchester Liners who were well known for being progressive in technology.
I left the sea in 1980 and disappeared into the African bush to work in a sugar mill, so I missed the revolution in IT, and of course if you missed that you would find it difficult to catch up.

It seems to me that all you sparkies, and I do not say this in any disrespectful way, were trying, understandably, to protect your status.
On the ships that I sailed on, sparks and leckie were the two 'one man bands' and generally we only answered to either the Old Man or the 2/E.
I totally understand the dilemma of an ETO being pulled in two directions.
So, two questions for you chaps.
How difficult would it have been for a well qualified leckie to gain the comms certs?
And, I see the title ECO used, does that stand for Electrical and Comms Officer?
Sorry for all the waffle.
Roger


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## Varley

I think your only trouble with MRGC would have been morse. It took me all of those two years to run up to speed and still got-by only on a re-test. Most, and regrettably it was most, failed on the learning side. Of the thirty or so who started out when I did only 4 of us passed first time (5 on the last day with a re-test!). Latterly Radar Maintenance was taken at the same time as the operator's ticket but it was something I never took. AMEC/T5 (with T3 Elect Eng) took another academic year and would not have been offered until you had 'some' seatime 'in charge'.

ECO was, indeed, Electronics and Communications Officer. Aspiring to a two and and half ring rank and pay scale. Unfortunately the market had different aspirations! ETO, same job, two rings and matching payslip.

I cannot resist commenting that although I agree that R/O and E/O were one man bands there was no good reason for them to be so.

There is more than a little truth in you comment on status. I am sure. However before we generalists get too cocky we should remember that the First Class plumbers are usually better qualified in electricity than any of us and several company cultures did not employ a dedicated electro-whatever at all. Keeping the culture was a duckpaddle. Imagine how much more difficult it would have been trying to keep two onboard with a pathetic demarkation based on Morse or possibly voltage?

Where were such qualified E/Os as yourself when we were looking for them?


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## DickGraham

*Mv eid*

Hi wsrmb01 - I too did a trip on the EID Nov '72 to April '73 first trip deep sea R/O - remember spending hours trying to contact WSL from the Med. Spent 6 weeks in a Pasadena motel while they repaired a crack in one of the tanks - hard times indeed(LOL)


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## wsrmb01

*Mv eid 1973*

#121 hello Dick
There was obviously another Sparks on the EID between you leaving 4/73 an me joining 11/73. When I joined, the previous one had already bolted! Do you recall any of the Deck/Engine officers names. The Capt seemed a permanent placing (Yorkshire guy, i'm sure,, married to American woman & lived in Florida), 1st Mate was from Strathaven, and I'm sure the 2nd/3rd Mate was a big Irishman from Donaghadee (Brian?), who would always exchange money for cheques for us youngsters to run ashore in Santos. I still have a pen-mark tattooed in my leg where he stabbed me with a pen, because I made a remark about the Rev Ian Paisley he didn't like! It was always a small foreign crew! We had a chef at the time used to run a Hotel in The Belgian Congo, before being run out..he was a brill chef. I remember having to fight off his advances a few times, as going 'below' deck was deemed dangerous for young newbies!...or so the Capt informed me.
I cant remember the TX on the Eid now (Memory fading!), but it was NOT the powerful type. I too remember trying for ages to contact WSL and other US coastal Stations. I mostly worked Amagansett/WSL in New York, WCC Chatham? and a couple of others, and paid token listening time to Portishead. I also remember having to almost batter the mechanical Auto-Alarm RX to 'unstick' the 'reeds'. Took me bloody ages to sort the thing out. The Radar was always going on the blink, and just before I left, the control Panel went on fire and I was told to let it BURN, as they were always at the owners for a newer set. I paid off, so I don't know how that turned out, but it has always eaten at me being ordered to let it Burn! Christ, I spent a good few hours on that Radar, the RAYMARC I think it was.


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## rogd

Varley said:


> I think your only trouble with MRGC would have been morse. It took me all of those two years to run up to speed and still got-by only on a re-test. Most, and regrettably it was most, failed on the learning side. Of the thirty or so who started out when I did only 4 of us passed first time (5 on the last day with a re-test!). Latterly Radar Maintenance was taken at the same time as the operator's ticket but it was something I never took. AMEC/T5 (with T3 Elect Eng) took another academic year and would not have been offered until you had 'some' seatime 'in charge'.
> 
> ECO was, indeed, Electronics and Communications Officer. Aspiring to a two and and half ring rank and pay scale. Unfortunately the market had different aspirations! ETO, same job, two rings and matching payslip.
> 
> I cannot resist commenting that although I agree that R/O and E/O were one man bands there was no good reason for them to be so.
> 
> There is more than a little truth in you comment on status. I am sure. However before we generalists get too cocky we should remember that the First Class plumbers are usually better qualified in electricity than any of us and several company cultures did not employ a dedicated electro-whatever at all. Keeping the culture was a duckpaddle. Imagine how much more difficult it would have been trying to keep two onboard with a pathetic demarkation based on Morse or possibly voltage?
> 
> Where were such qualified E/Os as yourself when we were looking for them?


Thanks for the reply Varley.
When I emerged from deepest Africa I toyed with the idea of going back to sea. Sugar mills in the bush are'nt exactly at the forefront of technology so I was a good 10 years out of date, and times had changed out of all recognition to me. I came to the conclusion that I would have struggled with the comms quals.
So I toddled off in a totally different direction. The Memsahib and I took a country pub. Best thing we ever did!!
Roger.
(Pint)(Pint)


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## Varley

every sailor's dream (until the recognition of the hard work kicks in!) however you must not use your lack of comms qualifications as an excuse. The essentials for keeping the lights on were the same. As the kit got more silicon based so did the opportunities for their repair get fewer and few of us, as ships are built/misbuilt now could get away without a technician now and again.

I had a great conversation with a Kongsberg technician on a Korean LNG Newbuilding, whinging that kit would cost a fortune to support when ten years old. "In ten years? In ten years this will not only be expensive to maintain but FABULOUSLY expensive" I learned that they had obtained the rights to Autronica KM series (discrete alarm systems, a card per channel, although one could still scan them by computer if you wanted to. The reason? For customers where it was difficult to arrange service! Evidently the middle of the oggin is free of such customers!

I had a KM2 still operational in this century, still maintainable and inherently free of fatal single failure modes.


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## sparkie2182

Varley......as requested.

Going back to 1994 , the Achilles Lauro sinking was hailed by the "authorities" as a success for the fledgling GMDSS system. 
As I recall after 25+ years, her initial distress call and message was tx'd on 500khz by an R/O.
Her GMDSS kit lay under dust covers......no one could operate it.
By some miracle a Thai(?)registered freighter within MF range carried an R/O who obviously made his relay ashore and the subsequent distress traffic was controlled by Stavanger MRCC.
The claim that the initialdistress "alert" was made by the GMDSS system was disingenuous at best.
Forgive the loose terminology......no-one seems to bother much these days.....I find I can't overlook ingrained nomenclature. 
The only online coverage that I can find, ironically ,is my own on SN many years ago in conjunction with another member.
I vaguely recall hundreds of rescued pax on the deck of a rescue ship.....all bright red with sun exposure en route to Djibouti.....there was insufficient room in the accommodation to allow shelter from the equatorial sun.


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## Varley

2182, thank you for that.

1994 had a better example. Clearly the Achille Lauro was not a GMDSS vessel and so only the authorities were wrong in making the claim all else was as old rules (of course some GMDSS related kit would have been retrofitted, EPIRB, R/T watch RX etc. and perhaps responsibility for control - when did that move ashore to an MRCC?). Estonia, may not have been GMDSS herself but many around her were. It remains an emotional read in the very best of seafaring tradition every vessel that was going to do so had altered towards her before anyone ashore ordered them to or Goteborg could be alerted. It is reported that that alert was by mobile phone. I haven't re-read it for some time but the accident report is easily Googled. I don't re-read it often, brings tears to the eye.


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## Troppo

Wasn't Estonia all ch 16?

And, yes, it was a terrible read...


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## J. Davies

I was involved in a pre-GMDSS rescue. Rather than type it all out again, here is a link:

http://www.radiomarine.org/gallery/show?keyword=SOSNEWC&panel=pab1_7

It is debatable whether the demise of Morse and the R/O ever led to more sea casualties. Probably not. Certainly there is no convincing evidence of this.

On the subject of who should be responsible for comms during an emergency, all the bridge officers are qualified to do so, and carrying one man for this job is foolhardy. He may be injured or otherwise engaged. 

An ETO these days spends little time on the bridge and is usually down below with the engineers. My duty during abandon ship as ETO on my last vessel was to launch the starboard life raft. During a fire it was in the engine control room to perform electrical isolations.

Things have changed, and for the best IMHO.


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## James_C

J. Davies said:


> On the subject of who should be responsible for comms during an emergency, all the bridge officers are qualified to do so, and carrying one man for this job is foolhardy. He may be injured or otherwise engaged.



They may be qualified to do so, but the question must be asked - which one of them will have the time to do so?
In BP tanker post GMDSS the mates did of course all have GMDSS tickets, however so did the ETO and his muster station was on the bridge where his emergency duties specifically were to handle external communications.
That setup went on to prove itself eminently sensible as time went on.


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## Troppo

James_C said:


> They may be qualified to do so, but the question must be asked - which one of them will have the time to do so?
> In BP tanker post GMDSS the mates did of course all have GMDSS tickets, however so did the ETO and his muster station was on the bridge where his emergency duties specifically were to handle external communications.
> That setup went on to prove itself eminently sensible as time went on.


Exactly.

(Thumb)


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## J. Davies

It is nice for us to sit back in our armchairs and pontificate on how things should be, but time has moved on.

The Manila convention STCW ETO certificate became mandatory on 1st January 2017. So the old ex R/O calling himself ETO and offering to assist in comms has become a dinosaur. The ETO syllabus does not include a GMDSS Operator's certificate so the ETO is not qualified to conduct emergency communications.

Many ETO's I worked with back-to-back in the past ten years have been young guys with no radio experience. They are trained for heavy electrical control and hotel systems. THE STCW requirements have taken the radio out of ETO.

Just separating fact from fantasy.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/852367/MSN1860.pdf


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## Troppo

J. Davies said:


> THE STCW requirements have taken the radio out of ETO.



IMO perpetuates the fantasy that:

1. the terrestrial GMDSS systems - principally DSC - are easy to use; and
2. the deck officers have enough time to attend to comms in a emergency.

GMDSS was too much change, too quickly - SOLAS Chap IV (radio) did not keep pace with technology...driven, of course, by parsimonious shipowners at IMO.

All of a sudden, here was a chance to get rid of people - said shipowners jumped at it.


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## sparkie2182

Quite so.

It would be interesting to know how many false distress alerts are still being made per annum worldwide.


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## Troppo

sparkie2182 said:


> Quite so.
> 
> It would be interesting to know how many false distress alerts are still being made per annum worldwide.



Indeed!


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## sparkie2182

Going back to the mid '90s......I lost count of the number of masters/mates who openly admitted they got so hacked off with HF DSC distress alerts being received they just......

"Switched it off"


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## Varley

J. Davies said:


> It is nice for us to sit back in our armchairs and pontificate on how things should be, but time has moved on.
> 
> The Manila convention STCW ETO certificate became mandatory on 1st January 2017....
> Just separating fact from fantasy.
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/852367/MSN1860.pdf


The elephant I saw in IEC 60092-509 is that basically it does not change the status quo. The person doing the maintenance MAY be 'certificated'. He may also be an 'instructed person', so at best trade oriented, acting under the control of a qualified person (there are three levels I cannot remember the designation of all of them). So basically one can rely on the Chief's certification as qualified and carry on as you were without worrying about the competence of who you choose to have for the work (or choose not to have) or have someone with a tested level of competence. The only real difference is that the testing of that (lower) level of competence is now enshrined in STCW as has been the Chiefs since Fleming.

I have always been in two minds about this. Two tanker companies traded satisfactorily with 'just' an assigned third as did many other companies. How such an assigned man retains any fluency gained from practice when he may only have that practice one trip in four I quetion. I was fortunate to be in company cultures where an E/O was carfried in the first place. In the first I moaned about underpinning knowledge and competence in my second the culture was 'eastern' and my E/Os were better qualified than I was (for to well for the needs of the industry). Who does 'better'?

One of the industry's most senior plumbers from one of those tanker companies can recount exactly the sequence of 'levers' to operate to run up and connect the main motor of a T2. What he cannot recall is the action of those levers. I have only seen a T2 on my way back from ashore in Trinidad and I do.


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## Piecesofeight

> All of a sudden, here was a chance to get rid of people - said shipowners jumped at it.


"The shipowners have a bomb under your chair" was the way Mal Phillips (Marconi Offshore Chelmsford) put it when I went there for an interview in 1991 for what turned out to be a ghastly rust bucket OBO (Griparion - Beta Maritime) with cream cracker decks. He was right.


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## Bill.B

In all the thirty years of surveys I did the most common problems were.
1. Batteries lasted seconds instead of the 1 or 6 hours. No maintenance done.
2. Aerials broken or full of water. Most aerial feeds were members of the “Irish pennant club”. Retrofits were the worst offenders. I once had four 24v 2 gauge battery cables going through a bridge console. The hole was about 3 inches in diameter and was made using a 1/4” drill so was effectively a 3” very sharp hole saw. Would have been interesting to see how that worked out down the line. I failed it.
3. Outdated batteries for handhelds, expired EPIRB batteries and releases. Companies had no idea when they required replacement. 
4. Operators unable to operate the equipment or even find some of it.
5. Having downloaded or obtained the previous years survey it was obvious it had been flogged. This may be controversial but I found a lot of shore trained inspectors, as opposed to ex sea going, had little idea what they were doing. This was especially evident on anything to do with HF/DSC/Telex.
6. Passenger ships were some of the worst maintained. It became a theme that whenever we had to do a passenger vessel we would be put on the early boarding list to give us time to do the survey. On a couple of vessels we would not be let on board until it was almost too late to do a proper survey. Once onboard it was the usual “oh so sorry but you will do the survey won’t you?”.
We came to the conclusion that as this happened regularly it was a deliberate attempt to make us rush the survey. We usually found items that needed rectifying or had been ignored since last survey.
7. Having spent a lot of time on US East coast dredging vessels the GMDSS, not VHF, was switched off and had been for most of the previous year. Once again aerial maintenance was nil.
8. Publications. Most of these were out of date and hidden away.
It was always amazing on some vessels how once you failed it that it was all your fault. I once failed a Greek chemical tankers GMDSS batteries, they lasted 1 second, whereby the Greek superintendent first tried to bribe me and then tried to hold me on the vessel, which was at anchor, but was saved by the launch crew, all this across the table from a new ABS surveyor. The bribe went right over his head and he seemed totally impervious to what was transpiring.
This is not to say all vessels were like this, many hundreds were spot on and a pleasure to survey. I am sure all of us who did these surveys have a long list of what they faced.
My shortest survey was a bulk carrier that had a burned out accommodation, bridge and radio room. The bridge consisted of a picnic table, a steering stand +gyro, one radar a yacht echo sounder with the transducer on a broom handle duck taped to the water line of the vessel. The radio equipment consisted of two vhf radios and a temporary SSB. The USCG came onboard took one look on the bridge and said “ “When ready to sail, two tugs to Cape Henry and don’t come back”. When I went to the Captains cabin to get my reports signed off I was met by an Indian crew member who had slashed his wrist and was pumping blood all over the desk.
An interesting day.


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## James_C

J. Davies said:


> It is nice for us to sit back in our armchairs and pontificate on how things should be, but time has moved on.
> 
> The Manila convention STCW ETO certificate became mandatory on 1st January 2017. So the old ex R/O calling himself ETO and offering to assist in comms has become a dinosaur. The ETO syllabus does not include a GMDSS Operator's certificate so the ETO is not qualified to conduct emergency communications.
> 
> Many ETO's I worked with back-to-back in the past ten years have been young guys with no radio experience. They are trained for heavy electrical control and hotel systems. THE STCW requirements have taken the radio out of ETO.
> 
> Just separating fact from fantasy.



BP trained ALL ETO's regardless of background (including those who were electricians) to have GMDSS tickets. This included the new generation of ETO cadets from the mid 90s onwards who basically did a 4ths ticket with a 6 month electrical bolt-on.
The company took the view that STCW and the GMDSS regulations simply weren't good enough in this regard and so to their credit they put their money where their mouth was.
That's not fantasy, that's facts.


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## James_C

sparkie2182 said:


> Going back to the mid '90s......I lost count of the number of masters/mates who openly admitted they got so hacked off with HF DSC distress alerts being received they just......
> 
> "Switched it off"



That was common enough practice in certain parts of the world because as soon as one relay came in, every man and in his dog within a thousand miles relayed it to everyone over HF. 

I often wondered whether this was due to them trying to slope responsibility in dealing with it properly, or whether the individuals concerned were actually taught to do that in their respective countries.
The problem was that once we moved into the 21st century near the 10th anniversary of GMDSS I started to increasingly notice shore stations doing exactly the same. Not many years before those same shore stations would have been the first to jump on any operator flouting procedures or causing mischief.


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## sparkie2182

"That's not fantasy, that's facts"

Confirmed.
Many did the GOC at Wray Castle.

We once had a very senior Master of B.P. take the course.
Physically big guy..... every inch an "old school" type.
Very quiet......no complaints....."stoic" would have been the perfect description.
He completed the course successfully and hated every second of it.
I think his views of the R/O onboard had probably changed dramatically.

I was too scared to ask.


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## sparkie2182

" I started to increasingly notice shore stations doing exactly the same"

Which begs even more questions.


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## James_C

Varley said:


> The elephant I saw in IEC 60092-509 is that basically it does not change the status quo. The person doing the maintenance MAY be 'certificated'. He may also be an 'instructed person', so at best trade oriented, acting under the control of a qualified person (there are three levels I cannot remember the designation of all of them). So basically one can rely on the Chief's certification as qualified and carry on as you were without worrying about the competence of who you choose to have for the work (or choose not to have) or have someone with a tested level of competence. The only real difference is that the testing of that (lower) level of competence is now enshrined in STCW as has been the Chiefs since Fleming.



My previous outfit had one of the very first young lads to gain a proper ETO ticket, this being around 2011. I remember when he joined that myself and the Chief had a good look at his ticket as we'd never seen one before.
At that time everyone assumed that all the time served men (leckies) and the handful of ex sparkies still around would receive ETO CoCs based on sea service.
I believe that then changed, because all of a sudden the youngsters straight out of their cadetships who had ETO tickets were of course referred to as ETO on the crewlist/articles, whereas everyone else ceased being ETO's and they then gained the new title of "Systems Engineer".
Pay scales are the same for both ranks, but the older boys were understandably rankled about the change. Especially since some of them weren't that old (20s/30s/40s) and were in fact time served electricians who knew far more about electrics and electronics having served a proper 4 year apprenticeship ashore than our new ETO cadets ever learnt during their 2 and a half year cadetship which only included 6 months of seatime.
That's progress apparently...


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## Varley

No can prefer a trained and educated man over one only educated however give me an educated man over an uneducated and trained man every time (of experience to provide the missing, we could provide. In spades)

Of the E/Os I had the pleasure to sail with as of 1971 the majority had been recruited on as only monkey see monkey do type apprenticeship/ journeymen (mines and gas board being notable exceptions).

I agree it was unfair to penalise any of the old hands, It was not their fault they had been 'the norm' for those that used them then.


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## rogd

Mr Varley.
Please define 'educated'.
Roger


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## Varley

Roger, my take would be:

Competence tested by exam at a level of further education. If not as part of formal further academic education then at the very least questioning of the necessary 'underpining knowledge'.

It became fashionable to simply test for 'competencies' and deliberately exclude formal testing knowledge except for that specifically required for the competency being tested (for instance radar maintenance) although I do not really remember any of these being introduced. More to do with the education 'industry' than for conventional college education so that everyone could get a fair bite at the cherry. 

Your full tech would xxx I suggest, have been difficult to pass without formal education (in house or otherwise). My industrial electronics T5 as delivered by South Shields in 1975 was not a full tech as we did not take T4, instead taking the almost simple T3 in electrical engineering in parallel with it. Bound up in a specifically maritime MN Training Board 'AMEC'. I guess the T3 was perceived to correct any weakness an R/O might have in the area of rotating electrical machines.

Even then the most useful (to both me and my employers) was the three or so hours a week under an ex-CEGB engineer Mr. Innes (spelling) much of the rest was to have something with which to test us. The level of learning required for the job is not high but the key is 'required'. Little it may be but essential it is.

David V


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## gordonarfur

I cannot for the life of me understand why any R/O would want to visit the engine room except to uplift distilled water for the batteries. who in their right mind would want to spend time messing around in the heat, grease and noise below the water level when you could have been initially an uncertificated 4th mate enjoying the peace and quiet and fresh air from the bridge. Wonders never cease.!


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## sparkie2182

Agreed.
The extent of my ambition was to have juniors doing the job.
Worked quite well.


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## Troppo

sparkie2182 said:


> Going back to the mid '90s......I lost count of the number of masters/mates who openly admitted they got so hacked off with HF DSC distress alerts being received they just......
> 
> "Switched it off"


Oh yes....I remember a Master telling me (with my official hat on) that he switched off the VHF and HF DSC during a tricky pilotage, as the alarms were just too distracting....

I agreed with him - to his amazement....(Jester)


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## Troppo

gordonarfur said:


> I cannot for the life of me understand why any R/O would want to visit the engine room except to uplift distilled water for the batteries. who in their right mind would want to spend time messing around in the heat, grease and noise below the water level when you could have been initially an uncertificated 4th mate enjoying the peace and quiet and fresh air from the bridge. Wonders never cease.!


Oh yes...at one stage, I was going to retrain. Did a lot of understudy time on the bridge, to the point I was doing meal reliefs (in open ocean..with no traffic...) and anchor watches.

It was quite enjoyable...


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## Troppo

James_C said:


> The problem was that once we moved into the 21st century near the 10th anniversary of GMDSS I started to increasingly notice shore stations doing exactly the same. Not many years before those same shore stations would have been the first to jump on any operator flouting procedures or causing mischief.


Yes, sad, but true...there were not many traditional coast stations left by that stage...

When we ran training courses as part of a new coast station install, we gave them chapter and verse on the perils of HF relays...and basically told them to shut up unless it was in their SAR area.


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## Piecesofeight

#147 I found over time that it paid to have a good working relationship with the 2/E. Occasionally there were bits of welding and other metalwork that benefitted from the attention of a fitter, and likewise the e/r sometimes ran into problems as their faults became electronic rather than purely mechanical. Also the engine room was an interesting place to look round as a contrast to the rest of the ship.

However, visiting and occasionally helping out was one thing. Being under the direct authority of the C/E, 2/E was something else entirely and the loss of autonomy that was part of the R/O's job was to me undesirable - but happy to have done it at all, another world, and much missed.


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## sparkie2182

"we gave them chapter and verse on the perils of HF relays...and basically told them to shut up unless it was in their SAR area."


The c/s operators were not GMDSS qualified?


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## Troppo

sparkie2182 said:


> "we gave them chapter and verse on the perils of HF relays...and basically told them to shut up unless it was in their SAR area."
> 
> 
> The c/s operators were not GMDSS qualified?


It was a new install.


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## Troppo

sparkie2182 said:


> "we gave them chapter and verse on the perils of HF relays...and basically told them to shut up unless it was in their SAR area."


...and, further to this - they were told that if they had to relay, to address the call to a radius around the distress position - so only nearby ships would get it...

That's how the system was intended to work.


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## sparkie2182

I'm a bit confused here Troppo.
Were the coast station operators qualified to GOC?
It sounds more like a new install quick handover briefing.


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## Varley

Troppo said:


> Oh yes...at one stage, I was going to retrain. Did a lot of understudy time on the bridge, to the point I was doing meal reliefs (in open ocean..with no traffic...) and anchor watches.
> 
> It was quite enjoyable...


The only bridge relief I remember was as Leckie. Not so much for the meal itself but for its peristaltic disposal. 'Big' Pete Roberts, London Team, Master relieving Mate for hold/tank cleaning. Although he was not far (the Bridge crapper was only two doors away) it was the Straits of Messina! Chinaman on the wheel me glued to a spot in front of radar - no target went unworried over.

The only other time I remember, in close waters anyway, was meal relief for the third mate, aft (I think), on Tilapa going through the Panama Canal. The only time I have worn my uniform cap in anger.


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## Troppo

sparkie2182 said:


> I'm a bit confused here Troppo.
> Were the coast station operators qualified to GOC?
> It sounds more like a new install quick handover briefing.


No, it was a proper Coast Station course.

A lot of places were very tardy in implementing GMDSS, and didn't make the 1999 deadline...


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## sparkie2182

Thank you, Troppo.


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## gordonarfur

Troppo said:


> Oh yes...at one stage, I was going to retrain. Did a lot of understudy time on the bridge, to the point I was doing meal reliefs (in open ocean..with no traffic...) and anchor watches.
> 
> It was quite enjoyable...


Hi Troppo did you get your second mates and if so how long did it take?


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## Troppo

gordonarfur said:


> Hi Troppo did you get your second mates and if so how long did it take?


No...the bag of gold at the bottom of the gangway (redundancy payment) was just too tempting...



I sometimes wish I stayed...if only to get a Master Class 1 and come ashore.


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