# Aircraft radio on Long Wave



## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

Our family's first broadcast receiver was a Pye. It was a pre-war model but still working (albeit with some services) in the early 1950s. It covered MW and LW and at the bottom of the LW, below 'Droitwich' and 'Luxembourg', the tuning dial had a part marked 'Aircraft'. I listened long and hard for hours on end but never heard a thing apart from pulses that I suppose was Morse sent by a tape. 

So did aircraft really use this section of the LW and, if so, would this have been RT or WT? Does anyone remember this and did anyone ever hear anything?

W


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## Wismajorvik (Dec 29, 2011)

Worldspan said:


> Our family's first broadcast receiver was a Pye. It was a pre-war model but still working (albeit with some services) in the early 1950s. It covered MW and LW and at the bottom of the LW, below 'Droitwich' and 'Luxembourg', the tuning dial had a part marked 'Aircraft'. I listened long and hard for hours on end but never heard a thing apart from pulses that I suppose was Morse sent by a tape.
> 
> So did aircraft really use this section of the LW and, if so, would this have been RT or WT? Does anyone remember this and did anyone ever hear anything?
> 
> W


Non directional beacons for aero and marine in that part of the spectrum.


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## Bill.B (Oct 19, 2013)

Shannon air radio used to make voice broadcasts down that end.


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## Harry Nicholson (Oct 11, 2005)

Worldspan said:


> Our family's first broadcast receiver was a Pye. It was a pre-war model but still working (albeit with some services) in the early 1950s. It covered MW and LW and at the bottom of the LW, below 'Droitwich' and 'Luxembourg', the tuning dial had a part marked 'Aircraft'. I listened long and hard for hours on end but never heard a thing apart from pulses that I suppose was Morse sent by a tape.
> 
> So did aircraft really use this section of the LW and, if so, would this have been RT or WT? Does anyone remember this and did anyone ever hear anything?
> 
> W


There was a similar radio/wireless in our house in the 40s and 50s. It had a 'magic eye' - a green neon of some sort that would close like a cat's eye when the tuning was optimum. It had aircraft band but I don't recall anything from it. Ships entering Hartlepool and the River Tees would often break through with Morse. Years later (2003) I wrote this in honour of Dad's old machine:

The Wireless

It’s my Dad’s birthday today
and he would be a hundred and ten,
but he didn't make it past sixty-five.
He moved slow at the end,
did his pools, read John Bull, shushed us -
then blunt ship-builder’s fingers
tuned with artilleryman’s concentration 
through the ether for Luxembourg.

He had a wire outside to get Long Wave -
it ran up the wall with the roses. 
Inside, behind the Palladian front,
valves strained for the sounds of Athlone
Paris, Dortmund and Hilversum,
under dust-felted overcoat shoulders - 
hunched things, like him and his mates
when grass grew in the yards.


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## sparks69 (Dec 18, 2005)

DAN would be heard in the background of the 6 o'clock news on the Home Service.
Years later I found that the IF was DAN's working frequency.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

sparks69 said:


> DAN would be heard in the background of the 6 o'clock news on the Home Service.
> Years later I found that the IF was DAN's working frequency.


DAN DAN the Funker Mann ... was it 474 kc/s? 

John T


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## jimg0nxx (Sep 1, 2005)

As I remember it was 444 Kc/s.


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## R651400 (Jun 18, 2005)

Norddeich/DAN 474 Kcs Kiel/DAO 470 kcs and in the 50's Elbe-Weser/DAC but don't remember the frequency.


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

I seem to remember, as a youngster. tuning in the radio to get info, re the arrival of the ferry 'RMS Claymore'. You could hear Barra head lighthouse replying and repeating the info. This freq was next to radio Lux. Our old 'Skylord' couldn't tune into the shipping freqs. I presume the same would be for air.


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## Harry Nicholson (Oct 11, 2005)

duncs said:


> I seem to remember, as a youngster. tuning in the radio to get info, re the arrival of the ferry 'RMS Claymore'. You could hear Barra head lighthouse replying and repeating the info. This freq was next to radio Lux. Our old 'Skylord' couldn't tune into the shipping freqs. I presume the same would be for air.


I've just remembered the 'Luxemburg Effect' where radio Paris (or was it Hilversum?) intermodulated with Radio Luxembourg. That was explained to us at Radio College. But it was a weird occurance on Dad's valve wireless and would get in the way of his competition results.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxemburg–Gorky_effect


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Harry Nicholson said:


> I've just remembered the 'Luxemburg Effect' where radio Paris (or was it Hilversum?) intermodulated with Radio Luxembourg. That was explained to us at Radio College. But it was a weird occurance on Dad's valve wireless and would get in the way of his competition results.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxemburg–Gorky_effect



My lecturer, Mr Andrew Bogie of Leith Nautical College, said that Luxemburg effect only appeared when radio receivers started using Intermediate frequencies in their tuning and amplification circuits. He said it did not happen with TRF equipment. This subject has been at the centre of many an argument over years.

Regards

KR


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## sparks69 (Dec 18, 2005)

TRF's ---- Marconi A-Lert ----- as much use as a chocolate fire guard !


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I heard that during the war radio silence involved also switching off heterodyning receivers as the LO could be detected at distance.


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

Varley said:


> I heard that during the war radio silence involved also switching off heterodyning receivers as the LO could be detected at distance.


I remember an elderly lecturer, 'Old Mac', at GCNS, telling us how a receiver could quite easily be converted into a transmitter.

Mind you, this same gent also explained, how zinc buckets, lots of urine and bayonets could make a usable battery. I don't know if this was through personal experience in the army, in the desert.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

sparks69 said:


> TRF's ---- Marconi A-Lert ----- as much use as a chocolate fire guard !


Exactly!


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

King Ratt said:


> Exactly!


It still served a purpose! If only for the logbook.


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## R651400 (Jun 18, 2005)

Sam class Liberties MF/LF stand-by receiver was TRF powered by the old fashioned 100V HT battery 9V grid bias and LT from ship's emerg battery and the most sensitiv MF/LF receivers I sailed with.
#11 ..Andrew Bogie LNC in my time radar instructor was an absolute "Mekon" on radio theory but did he get it right on his Superhet/TRF Luxembourg effect answer.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

R651400 said:


> Sam class Liberties MF/LF stand-by receiver was TRF powered by the old fashioned 100V HT battery 9V grid bias and LT from ship's emerg battery and the most sensitiv MF/LF receivers I sailed with.
> #11 ..Andrew Bogie LNC in my time radar instructor was an absolute "Mekon" on radio theory but did he get it right on his Superhet/TRF Luxembourg effect answer.



Fred Boettcher also talked about the Effect and that it was only experienced with superhet receivers. I attended LNC late 1960 - 1963, listened to Luxemburg on my Perdio transistor radio (superhet) however I never heard the said Lux effect. All history nowadays.

73 de KR


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## R651400 (Jun 18, 2005)

208 metres Radio Luxemburg was notorious for its QSB that always seemed to coincide when they reached number one on the late Sunday Top Twenty but am sure this had nothing to do with the "effect." 
All water under the bridge especially now with internet radio TV et al.


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## Moulder (Aug 19, 2006)

R651400 said:


> 208 metres Radio Luxemburg was notorious for its QSB that always seemed to coincide when they reached number one on the late Sunday Top Twenty but am sure this had nothing to do with the "effect."
> All water under the bridge especially now with internet radio TV et al.


Perhaps the QSB was due to the fact that you were listening on your small transistor radio under the bed covers. It was in my case …………… [=P]


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## Alan Couchman (Jun 1, 2007)

In. the '40's and early '50's, long wave was certainly used for aircraft communications. This used morse, with the calling and distress frequency being 333KHz. See https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1955/1955 - 1088.PDF


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

Moulder said:


> Perhaps the QSB was due to the fact that you were listening on your small transistor radio under the bed covers. It was in my case …………… [=P]


I seem to remember you telling me, when you on the KSC Al? with Russian gear, var tx tuning, butting in on one of the pirate radio stations. Or, perhaps, that was only an intention.

Best regards,


Duncan, ex Dwarka


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

R651400 said:


> 208 metres Radio Luxemburg was notorious for its QSB that always seemed to coincide when they reached number one on the late Sunday Top Twenty but am sure this had nothing to do with the "effect."
> All water under the bridge especially now with internet radio TV et al.


One lecturer at GCNS, explained this as 'skywave' and 'groundwave', heterodyning. Some plus + plus, then plus + minus, minus - minus. I,m confusing myself.


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## Moulder (Aug 19, 2006)

duncs said:


> I seem to remember you telling me, when you on the KSC Al? with Russian gear, var tx tuning, butting in on one of the pirate radio stations. Or, perhaps, that was only an intention.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> ...


Al Shamiah - you've a good memory Duncs. Had a lot of fun with those transmitters. [=P]

73s


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## Wismajorvik (Dec 29, 2011)

I worked with a guy who had previously been employed at a ground station communicating with aircraft, presumably with NATCS. Apparently he sat in a cubicle with a loudspeaker, headphones and a morse key. Receiver controlled by another department...


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

Just come to the forum and seen the reply fm Alan ... all VG indeed. I remember that when I was at West Norwood in the mid 50s some of the private colleges were still advertising courses for civil aviation R/Os but I seem to remember that Danair was one of the few still employing.

Was the MOTCA qualification pretty much the same as the PMG?

What happened to all those civil aviation guys when they became redundant? Did they become sea-going R/Os? What happened after WW2? Did former RAF WOPAGs just walk into airline jobs as R/Os?

Thanks in advance.

W


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## holland25 (Nov 21, 2007)

I worked for IAL for a while and couple of my colleagues had worked at Birdlip Hill in Gloucestshire which I believe used CW to communicate with aircraft.


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Birdlip Radio*

When I was at RAF Hullavington (Air Electronics School) in 59/60 we flew in Vickers Varsity a/c. The HF gear was the STR18 ... the same as that in the V-Bombers. One of the stations that we worked for training had the callsign MLN and I have a feeling this could have been at Birdlip ... does anyone know?

Also, I seem to remember that QSOs between a/c and the ground were always on the same frequency ... this as opposed to marine radio, where split frequency was the norm.

Any comments? Thanks in advance ...

W


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## Alan Couchman (Jun 1, 2007)

Seems that the callsign for Birdlip was MVB: see page 15 of NOTAM doc:https://atchistory.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/notam-105-1947-uk-telecommuncations-services.pdf . This gives frequencies and call signs of all stations participating in UK civil aircraft comms in the 1940s/50s, including CW (A1) on long and short wave: see appendices B and C of this do***ent.


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

Alan Couchman said:


> In. the '40's and early '50's, long wave was certainly used for aircraft communications. This used morse, with the calling and distress frequency being 333KHz. See https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1955/1955 - 1088.PDF


Thanks very much, Alan, for the page from _Flight_. This is just what I wanted to know. Apologies for the late reply but I've only just returned to this forum.
W


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## Alan Couchman (Jun 1, 2007)

Hi Worldspan - you are very welcome. The NOTAM do***ent I quoted above is also very interesting. All the best, Alan


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