# The Nautical Institute. Does it have a future?



## Dave Wilson

Thought this might be a worthwhile topic following recent posts on STCW etc.
My own view is that it does but it should take a more active role in maintaining standards rather than the passive role it currently employs.

Dave


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## ajaxrm742sq

I used to be a member but left after concluding that it was just a mutual admiration society.


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## Bill Davies

Would not disagree with you Ajax. It has become just a habit (albeit expensive) for me.


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## peterjholcroft

I agree with ajaxrm742sq that this is a Mutual Admiration Society. Basically a talking shop, many members of which failed to make the grade at sea, and certainly do not achieve anything.
I was a member but left in disgust. I am of the opinion that they are more interested in lowering standards than in improving or maintaining standards.


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## Supergoods

I have been a member for about 15 years and a local committee member for much of that time.
In my particular area there are few seagoing personnel, so the majority of the active membership is shore based.
While we do have wide ranging discussions on many topics, much of what is said is tempered by the corporate thought police and this extends now even beyond retirement which for me is happliy coming in three weeks.
This is particulary visible in presentations at seminars where reality is often skirted around for these reasons.
Ian


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## peterjholcroft

I must add that the members of this 'talking shop' are totally out of touch with reality.
I get the impression that the Institute is now controlled by shore management and as such no longer has any real relevence for professional seamen.
My previous employer, a shipmanagement company based in Purfleet, uses its connections to the Nautical Institute in an attempt to give itself respectability.
As I say, as a believer in integrity, I left in disgust.


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## Chris Isaac

I was a member back in sixties and seventies and left for all the reasons stated... does it have a future.... I'm not even sure if it has a past!


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## Bill Davies

You were a member in the 60s Chris??


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## Geoff_E

Can't disagree with most of the previous comments, though I've still kept up the subscription (habit?). The "academic" articles in "Seaways" well outnumber those of any practical interest to mariners.


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## Bill Davies

Geoff,

I often wonder how many members are there from habit. It certainly needs a big shake up and maybe even an amalgamation with IMarEST. That may be another thread so our Engineer colleagues might give their views.

Bill


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## John Campbell

Bill Davies said:


> Geoff,
> 
> I often wonder how many members are there from habit. It certainly needs a big shake up and maybe even an amalgamation with IMarEST. That may be another thread so our Engineer colleagues might give their views.
> 
> Bill


Bill, I am a N.I. Member and have been since it started - the amalgamation with the IMarEST has been mooted and although it looks good on paper it seems that the way IMarEST is going that you will soon need to be a Chartered Engineer to join, I am told. Unfortunately it looks as if the two organisations are incompatible the way they are structured.

The N.I.now is largely funded by their ever growing publishing interests and from accrediting various training courses such as Dynamic positioning and Oil spill response.

We have a very active N.I. in Aberdeen with well attended interesting meetings although regretably we see very few sea going members.
JC


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## Bill Davies

JC, I too am a member of the NI and was part of the founding group in Liverpool.
However, I differ with you in that I believe amalgamation is the way forward as the NI is struggling with 'perception' which has been readily illustrated on several current posts. The IMarEST does not, and is not, interested in restricting membership as you say and have been diligent to address these fears in designating Navigators as Chartered Marine Technologists (C.MarTech) and parity with C.Eng ( but I assume people of our age are not interested in letters)
We have an active branch in the North West with an new Chairman from whom much change is anticipated.


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## Oz.

What is the NI ??
What is IMarEST ??
What is STCW ??


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## gdynia

Oz

NI is Nautical Institute

IMarEST is The Institute of Marine Engineering, Science and Technology

STCW is Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping


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## JimC

My experience of the NI is nil but I have come across it as an employer of Marine people in a marine environment. My personal opinion is that it is used mostly by those who like to put letters after their name and show-off a bit. 
Talking of which: it would be nice if shore wallahs recognised marine qualification as they do all these weird degrees on offer from places of learning now. I know there was a Bsc Marine Studies at one time but few qualifications, including that one, take as long as it took to get the old MM(FG) ticket (10 years). Similarly; all the lads who served their time as Fitters or Turners for four years before going to sea then spending all that sea time to get their 2nd or Chief's tickets deserve similar recognition. Don't know about you guys out there but I was very proud of my shiny new ticket. Unfortunately it meant nothing to anyone else outside the Service.


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## Bill Davies

Agreed JimC. The old Masters (FG) (Pre 78) was a difficult certificate and I know I worked damn hard for mine in 67. Talking to some old examiner friends of mine and understand that the syllabus peaked in the period 73/77 when derivation of formula was dropped into the exam papers but resulted in the less passing in 77 than in any other post war year although those offering themselves for examination did not decline. I was a lucky boy.


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## John Campbell

Bill Davies said:


> Agreed JimC. The old Masters (FG) (Pre 78) was a difficult certificate and I know I worked damn hard for mine in 67. Talking to some old examiner friends of mine and understand that the syllabus peaked in the period 73/77 when derivation of formula was dropped into the exam papers but resulted in the less passing in 77 than in any other post war year although those offering themselves for examination did not decline. I was a lucky boy.


Bill I read in an edition of the Nautilus "Telegraph"that there is a
a proposal from Norway to the IMO to have celestial navigation
struck from the STCW requirements for deck officer certificates.
I qualified as a deck officer in 1963 and am familiar with the ‘GPS
generation’. before retirement but obviously, with satellite systems
and soon e-loran the importance of celestial navigation is reduced however I
feel it still has an important place in the modern Merchant Navy because 
control of GPS is in the hands of a foreign government who could easilydowngrade or even suspend the system.


For these reasons proficiency with a sextant is a skill worth keeping. 

It looks as if getting a cert. of competence is not such a difficult task these days.
JC


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## sparkie2182

ref the suspension or degrading of g.p.s. by the "controlling" authority.......

i believe B.P. sent a message to all ships insisting "traditional" sights had to be taken during the Gulf wars....... irrespective of g.p.s. readings.

the ability to do this in future is in real doubt.


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## Guest

Believe a Random error was put back in the GPS during the Gulf Wars with those in the know able to correct for it or de-scramble to again get max accuracy. Think it gone since then and in fact accuracy was increased which was always possible but not give to non military. and this was regardless of Differential GPS which more accurate again.


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## sparkie2182

john............

the error you refer to is the military access capability.
those not "in the know" simply have an error in their figures....... without the knowlege of same.

d.g.p.s. makes reference to a known location, and error offsets can be calculated w.r.t. that known point.


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## Guest

Tks Sparkie, had vague idea as was explained to me sometime, thanks again.
Have DGPS in Samuel j, just incredible.... when I think back not that long either and we off Irish Coast with Df trying to find null points with our state of the art set handheld set with compass, which even had ***fy headphones...
brgds
John


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## captkenn

I too am a member of the NI and have been since the late 70s (for 23 years a Fellow). I have been involved quite heavily in various commitees such as the Command programme and was a Member of Council for 6 years but IMHO the trouble is the same as applies throughout much of the UK's industry - our Merchant Navy is all but dead.


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## Dave Wilson

One of the weaknesses of the NI is that it aligns itself with colleges by accreditation etc and gives respectability to what we all know is going on in our colleges with internal marking et al. I understand one college in the NW was under censure by the MCA around 2002 and the local NI could not bring itself to get involved. The NI could have changed its image if it too distanced itself from that establishment.


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## Bill Davies

John Campbell
Quote:*For these reasons proficiency with a sextant is a skill worth keeping. * : Unquote
A level of proficiency in basic arithmetic would help.

Bill


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## MM²

*Celestial Navigation*

I am surprised that there is a move to remove Celestial Navigation from the Syllabus.

If it is removed any sensible ship owner would make sure that his officers were trained in Celestial Navigation and that they practised it regularly. Maybe there would be a place for the NI to run and accredit such courses.


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## James_C

MM2,
Trouble is, there aren't many sensible ship owners, especially when Money is involved.
At the moment it is a requirement to carry a sextant onboard, the cost of which is borne by the company concerned. These days a half decent sextant will cost something in the region of £800, together with the various tables etc which all cost a bit of money. 
All the shipping companies will see is the thousands of pounds they will save in not having to supply all the paraphernalia to their ships.
Of course come the day GPS is switched off/knocked out by solar flares etc then the proverbial will certainly hit the fan - big style.
I'm a member of the RIN and whilst they do some excellent technical research I do feel far too much emphasis is placed on ever more complicated and fragile pieces of electronic wizardry. The majority of the stuff being produced now and fitted on ships can't be repaired onboard, the technology is either way beyond the knowledge base of your average Lecky or it's all modular etc so when one little bit fails the idea is to throw a sizeable amount of working stuff away and have it replaced by another module.


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## JimC

MM² said:


> I am surprised that there is a move to remove Celestial Navigation from the Syllabus.
> 
> If it is removed any sensible ship owner would make sure that his officers were trained in Celestial Navigation and that they practised it regularly. Maybe there would be a place for the NI to run and accredit such courses.


I agree that celestial navigation should be a retained skill - if for no other reason than the 'wherewithall' for satnav is too easily sabotaged by some future 'geek' with a lot of spare time and the knowledge to do so. Hacking is an art form which improves daily as is the speed with which data is processed. Cyber war isn't too far off if not already with us.
Incidentaly - navigation is also a safety tool - not just a means of getting cargo quickly from one place to another in the shortest time. It should therefore be an every day part of a navigator's tool box. Don't know about the NI running a course on it though. I'm always suspicious about the motives behind non academic establishments running such courses.

Jim C


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## Bill Davies

MM2,
I would agree with much of what James_C has said but this is not really new. There has been a 'dumming down' in the syllabus ever since STCW came along and the NI have not so much as raised an eye brow. So, if they did remove Celestial Navigation from the syllabus I am sure we can rely on the NI not to raise any objection.
Brgds
Bill


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## peterjholcroft

I agree with Bill. All the shipowner/manager wants nowadays is cheap crews and the NI, being alighned with the management, is happy to go along with that. STCW just made it possible for the Eastern Block countries to certify vast numbers of monkeys very quickly - just what the owner/manager wants - so why should the NI (or the IMO for that matter) raise an eybrow?
What about the rule of the road? How long before that is removed from the syllabus?


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## jimmys

I maybe should not be in this forum as I am an Engineer. I am a Chartered Engineer a C.Eng. My number is 427806 and I am registered with the Engineering Council. I am a Member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers and a Member of the Institute of Marine Engineers Scientists and Technicians. The designation C. Eng. is protected by law.
I do note the IMarEST has now designated me as a C.Eng. and C.Mar.Eng.
This is in preparation for the intake of persons not registered with the Engineering Council. It is a con. You cannot become Chartered Engineers or Chartered anything else by this route. It will have no legal standing. You can call yourself what you like for free why pay. Be a C.Mar.Tech as I am a C.Mar.Eng. do it for free.
I sat the entrance exams as required to the IMechE a long number of years ago I was with Blue Funnel at the time. You needed a degree or equivalent to enter them.

regards


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## Bill Davies

Jimmys,
Your input on this topic is more than welcome. I am of the belief that the NI should be integrated with the IMarEST as they are more progressive and proactive. Just so nobody gets upset the T stands for Technologists. 
Unfortunately the NI are not so rigorous in the entrance requirements. Although holding a Class 1 (Deck) gains membership there are many without this CERTIFICATE???


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## jimmys

Hi Bill 

It is most unlikely anyone will be upset about this. I am only trying to assist the Masters from inside. I was just checking on my membership card the CEng.CMarEng is on it as well. They are bringing this new grade to bring in more people.
If you look at the intake of C.Eng for some institutes you will see the problem

civils/building 400 approx
mechanicals 200 "
marines 27

This is what the problem is numbers not qualifications. They need numbers to exist and influence.

The chartered marine technologist/technician name is not protected. It wont affect chartered engineers or incorporated Engineers which are protected.

I would think you need to consider bringing it in through the NI in the first place as far as I know there is nothing to stop you. They will have a charter.

The standards required for the young for CEng are terribly high. The MarEST structure is not good, I am a mentor and I recommend Mechanicals to the schoolkids. Nothing else I can do. Far bigger choice for them.

I have been on a land pollution/illegal dumping job for nearly a year it is nearly finished. You need to be very careful what you put forward as qualifications now it is dog eat dog out there. That was the reason I spoke.

regards
jimmy


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## Bill Davies

Jimmy,
The IMarEST is presently accrediting Navigation courses which I think is positive and the NI should take care. On completion of the various courses the students are designated AIMarEST and after successfully obtaining Class 1(Deck) together with the required experience are awarded MIMarEST. Further experience and interview should give them C.MarTech.


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## duquesa

*The Nautical Institute*

Ships Nostalgia has a great number of members from eastern block countries. I feel it is totally out of order in today's society, to refer to anyone from those nations or anywhere else for that matter, as "MONKEYS"! That remark should be withdrawn as it is politically, totally unacceptable. An apology would also be a good idea. As it so happens, some of those so called monkeys are among the very best of seafarers to be found nowadays.(Cloud)


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## Geoff_E

Just shows that you haven't been anywhere near the "sharp" end recently!


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## jimmys

Hi Bill.

The IMarEST is a licenced member of the Engineering Council UK. (ECUK). As such it is allowed to monitor and recommend members for three qualifications.
These are CEng.- chartered engineer. IEng-incorporated engineer. EngTech- engineering technician.
There is no more I have asked them. These are the three titles protected by law.
They do not seem to be acrediting these courses on behalf of the ECUK. Who are they acrediting them for. This is why I asked about the NI. Who is issuing the qualification CMarTech if not ECUK.

regards


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## Bill Davies

Jimmy,

The IMarEST is accrediting courses for Navigating Officers along the lines in post #33. I understand they have recently accredited a Technical College in Turkey for both disciplines.

Brgds

Bill


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## Derek Roger

I was in the Institute Of Marine Engineers when I emigrated to Canada ; I sadly let my subscriptions lapse and was sent a letter informing me that if I wanted Full Membership I would have to sit a Chartered Engineers Exam .

Despite the fact I was still very much in the Marine Business and my peers were retiring or working ashore ; They were given Grandfather Memberships ( some as Fellows ; some as Members ; it was not offered to me ) I decided not to proceed with them any longer ( I did not have time to go to school again as in shipbuilding there is no free time ) 

I did join the Canadian Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers 
S N A M E and did read a couple of papers on Ice Breaking in Saint John and Ottawa .

The fact is that to be a member of the Institute of marine Engineers today requires a Chartered Engineers Degree or equivalent .

I think it highly unlikely the Institute Of Marine Engineers would welcome any amalgamation unless the joining members were properly qualified to their standards .

I also find it strange that some of the posters in this thread who seem to want an association find it necessary to contradict the Engineer as an Officer ???

I was fortunate in coming to Canada where business did not care one's Title or what groups one belonged to but were very interested in The Chief Engineers Ticket and ones experience in the field .

I found that refreshing and am glad I made the choice .

Kind Regards Derek


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## John.H.Clark

In Jan this year as the Black Prince approached the Caribbean , the third mate took star sights, to calibrate the electronics he said. Homeward bound Captain Jan gave a talk and showed two occasions when the SatNav showed us ashore while we were afloat! You still have to use your eyes even in this electronic age

John


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## Bill Davies

Quote: John H. Clark : _You still have to use your eyes even in this electronic age_ 
John,
Unfortunately, it is what it is and things are not getting any better.


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## greektoon

I resigned from the NI about 3 years ago after being a member for 15 years. I thought they were totally out of touch and their SEAWAYS monthly was almost unreadable. They made a big mistake in relaxing the criteria for membership, which used to be for holders of FG Master's Certificates only. Another objection was the manner in which members were promoted to Fellow of the Institute. This appeared to depend on who you happen to know in HQ rather than time as member / experience / achievements. An old boys club type set up.


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## Bill Davies

greektoon said:


> I resigned from the NI about 3 years ago after being a member for 15 years. I thought they were totally out of touch and their SEAWAYS monthly was almost unreadable. They made a big mistake in relaxing the criteria for membership, which used to be for holders of FG Master's Certificates only. Another objection was the manner in which members were promoted to Fellow of the Institute. This appeared to depend on who you happen to know in HQ rather than time as member / experience / achievements. An old boys club type set up.


I do not think many could argue with you. I was one of the founding members in Liverpool along with Ben Moss et al.
I am still involved but I am woefully aware of the shortcomings.
Wish I had the stamina to change things!


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## John Campbell

We have a thriving branch of the Nautical Institute in Aberdeen where the North of Scotland Branch meet monthly. Last night we had an excellent talk from the current SOSREP Hugh Shaw. He gave an excellent insight on his role in the salvage of the MSC "Napoli "
regards= JC


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## slick

All,
Like most of the postings from the Deck Officers I too was a Member of the NI (and the RIN) since the advent of GPS however and retirement they both are surplus to requirements.
All the pre 1978 certificates were something worth attaining.
As the clerk in one of the Shipping Offices was alleged to have said on handing over a Certificate, "There you go, too stiff to wipe your a--- with, and too hard to light a fire with!!
I sold my sextant (Freiburg) to an aspiring young 2nd. Mate, I later was told that it was on his Dining Room wall as a conversation piece!!
I think that sums it all up.
Yours aye,
Slick


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## Bill Davies

John Campbell said:


> We have a thriving branch of the Nautical Institute in Aberdeen where the North of Scotland Branch meet monthly. Last night we had an excellent talk from the current SOSREP Hugh Shaw. He gave an excellent insight on his role in the salvage of the MSC "Napoli "
> regards= JC


That is encouraging! I hear from various committee members of the North West Branch (Liverpool) that there is an underlying disinterest / lethargy from the young Cadets, namely Fleetwood & LJMU which has just started taking its own Cadets. Without the young people coming into the business one has to ask is it worth it.


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## red_drawers

John Campbell said:


> Bill I read in an edition of the Nautilus "Telegraph"that there is a
> a proposal from Norway to the IMO to have celestial navigation
> struck from the STCW requirements for deck officer certificates.
> I qualified as a deck officer in 1963 and am familiar with the ‘GPS
> generation’. before retirement but obviously, with satellite systems
> and soon e-loran the importance of celestial navigation is reduced however I
> feel it still has an important place in the modern Merchant Navy because
> control of GPS is in the hands of a foreign government who could easilydowngrade or even suspend the system.
> 
> 
> For these reasons proficiency with a sextant is a skill worth keeping.
> 
> It looks as if getting a cert. of competence is not such a difficult task these days.
> JC


Hello, Firstly, i am a 2nd officer currently working at sea, and i have mixed feeling on this issues. Im guessing you already know that its no longer a requirement for a vessel to sail with a sextant? so most new buildings dont have the capability to get a position using a sextant even if they have very able officers on the bridge. However as we speak im in Western africa on a vessel, and it just so happens that the GPS is terrible in this area (Pointe noire) and ive just found out how much we modern navigators actually rely on the GPS. Onboard here we have no paper chart, two seperate ENC Ecdis machines have replaced them, our speed is input into all the nav equipment from the GPS, we have no Gyro or magnetic compass bowls on the bridge. Sailing into pointe noire and places such as this with no GPS signal in the dark means you are soely relying on radar bearings which you can then transfer to the Ecdis. this marks then saved on the screen. however good this technology is, this navigating would be alot easier having paper charts and a compass to take bearings, so for that reason as you say i agree we should not lose the capability's to learn dated navigational techniques such as the use of a sextant. But at the same time there are hundreds of vessels navigating the globe as we speak who dont even have one onboard.


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## callpor

red-drawers,
I'm sure that NI and its members will be interested in what you relate about modern navigation equipment onboard today. But what flag administration certifies any of it's registered vessels to sail without at least some paper charts onboard even if they are equiped with two independent ECDIS sets? Not having a sextant I do not agree with but I can understand, but no charts at all and total reliance on electronic systems I find very difficult to accept as safe. Chris Allport


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## greektoon

red drawers

very interesting post. I am also surprised at the absence of paper charts. The lack of a repeating gyro compass for taking visual bearings is a highly unsatisfactory arrangement.

The reason why your GPS appears to be unreliable could be due to discrepancy with chart datum. Positions derived using the GPS system are referenced to WGS datum (world geodetic system). However, many charts are based on local datum whose relationship to WGS datum has not been established or investigated, which can cause positional inaccuracies. This is likely to be the case with a lot of remote places like W African ports. When the relationship between chart datum and WGS datum has been established, adjustments can be applied to the GPS position in order to make it compatible with chart datum. These adjustments are normally printed on the chart, including a cautionary note stating that positional discrepancies may be significant.

I am not that familiar with ECDIS but there is a possibility that the same will apply. But be warned, in the case of charts without Lat /Long shift values, positions may still be several miles discrepant from those derived from GPS.

Temporary N/M 943/93 (this may have been superceded) included the advice;

"Mariners are therefore advised to make greater use of classical methods of observational position fixing when closing the shore or navigating in the vicinity of dangers. The relative positions of features may be more reliable for navigation than the use of unadjusted satellite derived positions on a chart whose horizontal datum can not be defined".

So check your Notices to Mariners, T&P Notices, Sailing Directions, The Annual Summary, and the Mariners Handbook and of course any cautions on the chart. It would also be a good idea to report your experience to the UK Hydrographic Office. They always appreciate feedback and can provide you with further advice.

All the best.


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## greektoon

I won't argue with that. He enjoyed winding people up, it's a case of whether you bite or not. All history now.


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## slick

All,
On the subject of his multiple identities maybe he is alive and well and in a parallel universe - quite scary.

Yours aye,


slick


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## AGAMEMNON

Regret to report I too, a Founder Member, has just resigned. I don't have a problem with what they are trying to do, but I realised that we are still on about the same problems we had when I went to sea in 1961. As a retired sailorman I have to watch where the dosh goes. They'll have to manage without me; the wine merchant won!


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## scottcrookes

I agree with the mutual appreciation society statements on here. Also the arrogant "we're right and everyone else is wrong" attitude is annoying. I read an issue of Seaways recently and the gist in one of the articles was that headup is the way to have a radar and anyone using any other display mode was wrong. This got the usual backslapping I have come to expect in this publication.


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## M29

Hi Chadburn
Thats interesting info. As I had some good friends on Derbyshire (Norman Marsh C/E, Fred Chedotal Electrician, "Bish" Waller RO) and had also sailed with Geoff Underhill (Master), I shall read the Derbyshire thread again from the point of view of what you have said.

Best Wishes

Alan


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## John Campbell

At a meeting last night, in Aberdeen,of the Nautical Institute we learned that proposals are afoot to open up Membership to all Mariners afloat or ashore who are in positions of responsibility. This will include Chief Engineers and Chief Stewards so a Master Mariner's cert. will no longer be required for Membership. 
This proposal goes before the AGM next month and it is anticipated that these changes will be made thereafter
JC


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## Wanstead

Surely those who do not possess a Master Mariners will only be allowed Associate Membership (AMNI). I understand this to be the current position.


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## John Campbell

Mersey Anorak said:


> Surely those who do not possess a Master Mariners will only be allowed Associate Membership (AMNI). I understand this to be the current position.


Yes you are correct about the current position but you can take it from me that this requirement will change after the AGM today -in Ireland.
JC


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## Wanstead

That's not good. I was aware that there was some dilution in general standards over the recent years but have never looked into it in any depth.


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## John Campbell

News from The Nautical Institute

For immediate release 24 June, 2010

PRESS RELEASE

The Nautical Institute revises membership 
criteria for the 21st century

One of the world’s leading professional membership organisations has issued a challenge to those working in the maritime world to help be a force for change.
The Nautical Institute has announced a major revision of membership criteria to include all those in control of sea-going ships and those who support them. The initiative was unanimously approved by the Institute’s annual general meeting in Cork.
“This acknowledges that in the 21st century there are more than seafarers working to support those in control of sea-going ships,” said the Institute’s Chief Executive, Philip Wake. “It is necessary to recognise that the safe operation of shipping, whether commercial or naval, is now, or should be, an integration of the command team on board and the management ashore.”
“This will open up membership to those with operational level qualifications or those in sectors such as offshore, coast guard, port operations, and the management team ashore. We call on them to join and help make a difference to the way ships are operated.”
He continued: “Membership of The Nautical Institute will help all qualified seafarers keep up with new technology and regulations, and thanks to our new NGO status at IMO we can give members a direct line to that agency’s decision making.”
There are other benefits too. With membership of 6,500 in over 110 countries and over 40 branches, there are many opportunities for networking and to improve job prospects. “There is also the question of professional recognition,” added Mr Wake. “Increasingly employers are demanding membership of a professional organisation and often cite the Institute as an example of this.”
The new criteria are designed to welcome all maritime professionals with qualifications directly into full Membership (MNI) and to recognise professional development beyond paper qualifications. As a result, all qualified sea-going officers will be eligible to join as will pilots, harbourmasters, VTS personnel, Designated Persons and other shore based managers, professional yachtmasters, marine surveyors, maritime lawyers, and maritime health and welfare professionals. A new grade of Associate Fellow (AFNI) has been introduced to recognise professional development to command of sea-going ships; other senior positions at sea, such as Chief Officer and Chief Engineer; and those who have attained senior management positions ashore. Those undertaking initial education and training for a maritime career will be encouraged to join as Associate Members (AMNI) as will ratings, boatmasters and other non-management level personnel.

Full details of the new grades and criteria are available from the Institute’s website: www.nautinst.org where an application form may also be downloaded. An online application process is also being developed.

Ends


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## China hand

I am starting to think that this is not the Nautical Institute I joined all those years ago. A world apart from the rented room just a spit away from Liverpool Street station. Time to move on, methinks.


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## Geoff_E

I will wait to receive this from them in writing - if/when, then it will be time to draw the line under them (and have my business cards re-printed)!!


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## Wanstead

Thin end of the wedge. Time to move on.


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## Billyly

I have been thinking of resigning for a few years now but have given it the benefit of the doubt but enough for me too after 20 years. 
I am sure I could put the money to a better MN related cause and I have enough unread Seaways articles to keep me going for another 20 years!


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## Octavius

Billyly said:


> I have been thinking of resigning for a few years now but have given it the benefit of the doubt but enough for me too after 20 years.
> I am sure I could put the money to a better MN related cause and I have enough unread Seaways articles to keep me going for another 20 years!


Agreed! I have just received my copy of Seaways and will not be renewing my subscription. It would appear that full membership is now available to those having the remotest association with the sea. Associate Fellowship... what is that?


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## Billyly

I think what they are trying to say is they have increased staff numbers so much the subscriptions from Master Mariners alone does not pay the bills so they are following the "dumbing down" trend that plagues the industry these days.


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## China hand

Years ago I got disillusioned with the Royal Institute of Navigation when, in their magazine, they went into the homing instincts of pidgeons.
I feel now that some of the Nautical Institute articles are leaning to that sort of erudition; but they don't do it so well. A pity, the early years were quite vibrant and good. Now? I feel they cater to a different table. Maybe it is me, but I do not think the N.I is representative of the Professional Seaman and Officer ( or is that far too harrumphish?) any longer.


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## greektoon

That press release tells you everything you need to know about the NI.

Incomprehensible Bull****

Follow the money trail


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## Octavius

The Nautical Institute have always considered themselves the poor relatives of the IMarEST. I think this latest move have reduced their stature even further.


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## Wanstead

greektoon said:


> That press release tells you everything you need to know about the NI.
> 
> Incomprehensible Bull****
> 
> Follow the money trail


Would not disagree.

I do not have the article to hand but the final paragraph in the summation of the changes gives a clear signal that decisions on membership acceptance will be final and irrevocable. 
There will be those out there implying they have more than they have based purely on this.


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## China hand

Wanstead said:


> Would not disagree.
> 
> I do not have the article to hand but the final paragraph in the summation of the changes gives a clear signal that decisions on membership acceptance will be final and irrevocable.
> There will be those out there implying they have more than they have based purely on this.


I feel that this is very true. Was not the original membership criteria clear and satisfactory? I am not at all happy with this, serious membership thoughts ahead. The administration has gone a little sloppy as well.


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## Wanstead

Exactly! In days gone by we have always assumed MNI flagged up that the individual was the holder of a Master's. There will be people using MNI now who will not have Master's but quite content to let people think they have. I think they call it 'passing off' in law.


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## pilot

Should fit in well with all the "Captains" that abound ashore then?


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## John Campbell

pilot said:


> Should fit in well with all the "Captains" that abound ashore then?


I agree there are a great many who have had a Masters FG Cert but never got beyond Second Mate who grandly style themselves as *Captain* - particularly those who are in the HCMM. However I have yet to see or hear of anyone who is happy with the new Nautical Institute requirements for membership.
JC


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## callpor

John Campbell said:


> I agree there are a great many who have had a Masters FG Cert but never got beyond Second Mate who grandly style themselves as *Captain* - particularly those who are in the HCMM. However I have yet to see or hear of anyone who is happy with the new Nautical Institute requirements for membership.
> JC


John,

I fully agree with all these comments. Reading your earlier post I found it hard to believe that the current NI Management would have the audacity to make such a radical change in the requirements for membership in such an undemocratic manner. Now received Seaways and read the full details from the AGM, I'm even more disappointed. In one stroke they have devalued the Nautical Institute. I will have to seriously reconsider whether to renew my membership. Chris Allport FNI


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## Wanstead

The next topic on the NI agenda will be the trend stop those who have actually held command and quite rightly use the title referring to themselves as Captain on the grounds that it demeans those who have not held such a position.
Wait and see.


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## david freeman

Like The Marine engineers the sea has become universal for all professional persons serving in some capacity at sea. As an oily rag and apprentice in the 60's the maritime influances came mainly from the Uk and Norway/Scandavia, and the USA, and the British Government support of the Red Duster. To day one I suspect has to follow the trail of investment money, and that the fleets are basically offshore to the old maritime nations. Commerece has the day. As Old foggies and past seafarers it is difficult to sustain interest in the Western European zone to create a vibrant and up and coming pool of youngsters who wish the sea as a career. It is frustrating and makes one wonders who cares, and who wishes to learn the lesons of experience. It can be lonely I suspect on a modern ship were the langauge is english but the native tounge is multilingual. Very lonely for a person who likes to chat


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## Wanstead

The real problem is that the NI needs money and to achieve this it needs to extend the membership net. They have declared that the average age of the members with Master's tickets is 53 and the vast bulk are in excess of 60. Apparently, people are not content with associate membership as it is hurtful to their feelings. poor things. What are we talking about here. Men, mice or wannabees.


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## Jardine

The Nautical Institute have just accredited courses for those who require DP Certification which imo will do nothing less than demean certificates issued in years gone by.
If the NI carries on like this the whole certification structure will crumble.


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