# Carrying bananas in containers



## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

Before containers all reefer cargo was just carried in refrigerated holds.
If you have bananas as a cargo you have two problems , continous air change ( to remove CO2 ) and removal of water from cooling the air and the sweating of the cargo.
If bananas are now carried in containers how do they get round the condensate and air change if there are only two ports in a box. Plus can the ships carry a full load of bananas like the reefer ships used to.
I noticed that bananas are delivered ( to the supermarkets) in plastic bags inside the same boxes we had, which defeats air change, removal of condensate and CO2.
Perhaps our learned  members of the Deck Dept could enlighten us if they have carried bananas in Containers.


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Excellent question Challis- looking forward to the commentary

BW

J


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## Tony the hippy chippy (Sep 24, 2021)

Challisstern said:


> Before containers all reefer cargo was just carried in refrigerated holds.
> If you have bananas as a cargo you have two problems , continous air change ( to remove CO2 ) and removal of water from cooling the air and the sweating of the cargo.
> If bananas are now carried in containers how do they get round the condensate and air change if there are only two ports in a box. Plus can the ships carry a full load of bananas like the reefer ships used to.
> I noticed that bananas are delivered ( to the supermarkets) in plastic bags inside the same boxes we had, which defeats air change, removal of condensate and CO2.
> Perhaps our learned  members of the Deck Dept could enlighten us if they have carried bananas in Containers.


That's a good question as a chippy on refer ship's I remember the bilges being 6 foot deep I took soundings twice a day as the banana's sweat considerably these were big bilges 4 in each hold always virtually full regards tony


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

Can you imagine Tony that amount of water draining out of a container?
Perhaps for that reason they are never carried in containers and banana boats are still around. But why in plastic bags?
Banana boats are much smaller than the present day box boats as you were often loading up a creek in the jungle and the cargo loaded by hand/shoulder, all hatches at once via the banana doors.


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## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

Sailing with United Brands (E & F) Barranca and Bayano, self loading, discharge container ships. Travelled between Gulfport Punta Cortes, Galveston, weekly. Always assumed we carried back bananas, no special treatment I recall, was only 3 day passage, between the US ports. And PC (1973)


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

My query is about present day , Ecuador to the UK or Phillipines to Persian Gulf, long sea passages. Back in the 70's 80's we had 36 hours to drop the temperatures in the holds and cargo from an ambient of 90°F to about 53°F and keep the CO2 down. There could be long sea voyages and periods of anchor particularly up the Perishing Gulf.
How do you carry out continuous air change in a container at the same time keeping the cooling going and preventing the box filling with water. A three day passage you could carry them as open deck cargo as long as you kept the sun off and plenrty of draught, which Fyffes used to do Costa Rica to the UK in the cooler months.


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## Shipwatcher3 (Apr 1, 2017)

Lately Frogs have made it alive to the U.K in plastic bags of Bananas from the Ivory Coast and the Dominican Republic. I would think they came in containers.


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

Understand there have been cases of large spiders as well that are not too friendly.
Are the bananas pre-cooled before bagging, boxing and container stuffing?


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## Shipwatcher3 (Apr 1, 2017)

I never carried bananas on containers, I only carried them in a reefer and they travelled in with the chilled at 0 to 5 degrees.


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

It is a well established fact that Banana snakes were to be found in abundance mixed with the cargo in pre container days. Do they survive in the container/ plastic era ? 

BW
J


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

Yes jmcg I was forever fishing them out of the bilge pump strainer when pumping hold bilges on cunards reefers, came in different flavours too!  .


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

I'm not sure that the stems of bananas are placed in plastic bags i.e. enclosed. The recent TV Clips that I've seen give me the impression that they are 'sleeved' in tubes of thin polythene, open at each end, possibly to make them easier to handle without damage. What difference that would make to 'sweating' I have no idea.


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

Thè way they are delivered to supermarkets a box full of so many hands are wrapped tight in a plastic bag, even if there are holes it will make it difficult to have a good airflow, then there is the sweating as the temperature is dropped which produces the water in the hold bilges as Peter the Chippy has testified to.
We used to carry them around the 13°C range, so wouldn't 5°C be a bit on the cool side especially for a long voyage.
I suppose there are only us old farts from another era on here and our replacements 'no speaki di inglish'.


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## Shipwatcher3 (Apr 1, 2017)

I only used to carry them for a max of 9 hours so I only considered the temperature a stabilising action. Very often they were behind the frozen compartment with other products and it was only a 2 compartment trailer. They were also carried on the double decker's as ambient cargo. Different companies gave drivers different temperature charts if any were given at all. I once put chocolate cakes on and was told to set the temperature at plus 18c when I stopped laughing I asked for and was given the instruction in writing. When I next carried them they were in the Chilled.


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

The transport manager sounds a bit of a " hot chocolate charly" to me,good move getting the instructions in writing for the next job.


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

I have heard stories from container ships where the cargo planners have put the containers in the wrong place so a box of chocolats say, have been deck cargo and melted and something chilled when it shouldn't been.


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

I have been in touch with Capt Pete, he stuck it out to the bitter end, so he might know if he receives my pm.


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## Howard W-S (9 mo ago)

Challisstern said:


> I have heard stories from container ships where the cargo planners have put the containers in the wrong place so a box of chocolats say, have been deck cargo and melted and something chilled when it shouldn't been.


In the early days of the Aussie container trade ‘Flinders Bay’ brought a stack of six containers of butter from Aussie to the UK. Unfortunately one turned out to be oranges and the other five containers ended up with orange flavoured butter. Another time a stack of fish fingers was identified a general cargo so they were not cooled and were running out of the bottom of the doors on arrival in the UK. That complete hold was out of action for a round voyage while being cleaned.


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## Shipwatcher3 (Apr 1, 2017)

Oh dear


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

Shipwatcher3 said:


> Oh dear


Or words to that effect. Good one.
I am sure there must be lots of similar stories like that.
Each box is identified by several numbers, you only need to miss read a number or line and it could happen. Yet it wouldn't happen with pallatised cargo.


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## peterjnewton1949 (9 d ago)

As a former captain on banana boats and later on container ships, I should be able to answer this question but alas I cannot. When Blue Star folded, sea staff were given the option of staying on reefer ships or transferring to the container fleet operated by P&O Nedlloyd. 
Container ships do not normally carry bananas as the ports from where they are exported are too small for large container ships and do have a hinterland with the manufacturing capacity to make a port call worthwhile. 
I know a lot of bananas are now carried in dedicated container ships but I do not believe this process has been a great success and this is down to distribution. The process of preparing bananas for sale starts 48 hours before arrival. When the ship docks, the bananas on pallets are immediately loaded into trucks and on their way to the point of sale, normally on shelves within 24 hours of discharge. This would not be possible for containerised bananas given the delays and congestion at our container terminals.
Having spent my last 20 years as captain of Blue Star container ships, I regret I’m not an expert in carrying bananas.


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## Shipwatcher3 (Apr 1, 2017)

As far as I can find out, Bananas once harvested are bagged in a controlled atmosphere 0.2% O2 and 5% Co2, then boxed. Shipping temperature must be kept in the plus13 to 14 degree range. When packed in containers there must be room left between the boxes and the sides and roof for air circulation during transport. They are considered a perishable cargo and monitored during shipping.


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

"Years ago if you wanted to import bananas you had two choices. You could pick the bananas when they were still green and un-ripened so they would arrive a week later by ship in a semi-yellowed state but still tasted un-ripened. Your second choice would be to pick them at the peak of ripeness and have them delivered soft and near rotting. Refrigeration helped but you still could not get your product to the consumer at its peak flavor.

Someone discovered that the ripening process needed oxygen for it to take place. If you somehow removed the oxygen the bananas could be picked when ripe and shipped in a compartment where the oxygen was removed. The bananas would not ripen much more and would be delivered at their best flavor.

Loading Bananas. Photo By Tom Guldner

This is done today on container ships and break-bulk carriers that carry produce. The usual manner the oxygen is removed from the cargo hold is by the introduction of nitrogen or other inerting gas. An inerting gas simply pushes the oxygen out of an area and then takes its place. Actually the inerting gasses are usually non-toxic in themselves however, the lack of oxygen will kill anyone who enters the area without an SCBA."

Just found this article in gcaptain.com, by inerting the atmosphere in which the fruit (actually a berry technically) is held stops the ripening process thus avoiding the sweating issue and production of ripening gasses, makes sense to me!


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

Thank you Peter, Shipwatcher and Taffe.
So if you fill a container with Nitrogen perhaps all you need to do is cool down the hold slightly thus saving the expense of air change, and the ships would be the banana boats with cell guides but no doughnuts. The containers would be especially constructed to be gas tight with connections for gassing presumably. Would the box temperature and inert gas pressure be monitored throughout the voyage and gas topped up if required due to leaks?

Any more container 'whoopsie' stories ( wrong carrying temps due confusion of box location etc) are most welcome.


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## Shipwatcher3 (Apr 1, 2017)

I was at an RDC one summers day. When an artic loaded with iced cream came in, the sharp eyed shunter driver pulled up alongside of the cab and said to the driver, you can turn around and take that back I can see you have not had the fridge on. Driver replied no one told me to put the fridge on.


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## rustytrawler (Jul 6, 2021)

Challisstern said:


> Thank you Peter, Shipwatcher and Taffe.
> So if you fill a container with Nitrogen perhaps all you need to do is cool down the hold slightly thus saving the expense of air change, and the ships would be the banana boats with cell guides but no doughnuts. The containers would be especially constructed to be gas tight with connections for gassing presumably. Would the box temperature and inert gas pressure be monitored throughout the voyage and gas topped up if required due to leaks?
> 
> Any more container 'whoopsie' stories ( wrong carrying temps due confusion of box location etc) are most welcome.


Hi challisstern .....Are you going to enter the banana moving business?...Can i apply for entertainments officer? rgds


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## Howard W-S (9 mo ago)

Challisstern said:


> Any more container 'whoopsie' stories ( wrong carrying temps due confusion of box location etc) are most welcome.


On the maiden voyage of Discovery Bay in 1969 she carried only one freezer container which, if I remember correctly, was full of confectionary of some sort. On arrival in Australia, after being kept within + or - one degree of the desired temperature it was ceremonially opened on the quayside. The container was full of chilled tractor parts. The confectionary was later found in a deck stow and was in perfect condition.


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## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

Mu post #5 re Bayano and Barranca. Carried 90+ 40ft containers, off loaded at Galveston/ Gulfport directly onto road transport. Brand names Elders & Fyffes. And Chiquita.
V/L’s built 72 Spain. scrapped 85 in Texas.


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

Good ones Shipwatcher and Howard, keep them coming, we all need a smile during the January blues period of cold miserable days.
RustyT, I have carried my fair share of bananas in my time. If you have any amusing stories to add from your working life or your Dad's that he passed on to you, please feel free to add them. Doesn't have to be about bananas. 
One lot, which I think was the first was from up a creek near Davao in the Philipines back to Khoramsha in Iran during the Sha's reign. They were for the school children for a.m. smoko, plus their milk, while at the same time or shortly after Mrs T stopped the 1/3 pint of milk for British school kids and they have never been the the same since , hence the Snowflakes, Generation X and their parents.
Another time we carried with a normal cargo of bananas a small consignment òf Red Skin bananas for some of our ship owners friends in Eire, perhaps to go with their green Guinness on St Patricks Day.
Exotic places like Guyaqila in Ecuador, at which if it wasn't nailed down it was pinched, or in the case of the contents of the diesel fuel tank for the Emergency Fire pump which was under the Fcsle head deck got drained overnight. I hope they put in their cars or outboards and ruined them. We never knew until BOT sports a day after leaving when it was my job tò go into the bulbous bow to start the fire pump, which didn't, not a croak.


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## Shipwatcher3 (Apr 1, 2017)

An artic load of frozen product was returned to the factory, because it had been sent to the wrong destination, about £90.000's worth. Shift manager said put it on the dock the other side of the factory to the driver, an ambient dock as it turned out. A couple of days later the factory manager wondered what it was doing there then the brown stuff hit the rotating thing in the ceiling. I was just an agency driver and could just look on and wonder. I was asked by a man who was helping me load up in another of there depots what do you think of the company? I replied they seem to make money in spite of them self's. He then went away to get the paperwork and the other man who was helping asked if I knew who the other man was. I said no, he then said that's the factory manager. I was not sure what was going to be said on his return, as he gave me the notes he said, do you know I think you are right. When I saw him after that he would always give a thumbs up and laugh.


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## Peter Hewson (Mar 12, 2019)

One might reasonably assume that with the advent of Bar Coding and electronic scanning, such mishaps would cease to happen?. But human nature being what it is I would take bets that there are just as many, In the early days of computing the Buzz "word" was GI=GO. which stood for operator error or "garbage in = Garbage out". 🤣 . Never had anything much to do with bananas except one trip as the 2E on a Harrison which might have been Statesman, as we paid off in Cardiff. Chief took on looking after the plantains and the refer plant, delegating the electrician to log the numbers. I was left alone to the E-R which suited me.

Pete


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## Tomtwice (Apr 23, 2012)

Challisstern said:


> Before containers all reefer cargo was just carried in refrigerated holds.
> If you have bananas as a cargo you have two problems , continous air change ( to remove CO2 ) and removal of water from cooling the air and the sweating of the cargo.
> If bananas are now carried in containers how do they get round the condensate and air change if there are only two ports in a box. Plus can the ships carry a full load of bananas like the reefer ships used to.
> I noticed that bananas are delivered ( to the supermarkets) in plastic bags inside the same boxes we had, which defeats air change, removal of condensate and CO2.
> Perhaps our learned  members of the Deck Dept could enlighten us if they have carried bananas in Containers.


I worked on Fred Olsen’s Black Prince and also Blenheim in the late ‘60’s, cruising from Millwall Docks in London to Madeira and the Canary Islands on two week cruises ( I was shop manager). Fred’s ships were dual-use, as a passenger cruise ship and also as a banana boats, picking up bananas from his plantations in the Canaries and delivering to Millwall. The holds weren’t refrigerated either, and from memory the bananas were packed into cardboard boxes. 
I ate a lot of bananas back then 🍌


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## Nudger (23 d ago)

Challisstern said:


> Before containers all reefer cargo was just carried in refrigerated holds.
> If you have bananas as a cargo you have two problems , continous air change ( to remove CO2 ) and removal of water from cooling the air and the sweating of the cargo.
> If bananas are now carried in containers how do they get round the condensate and air change if there are only two ports in a box. Plus can the ships carry a full load of bananas like the reefer ships used to.
> I noticed that bananas are delivered ( to the supermarkets) in plastic bags inside the same boxes we had, which defeats air change, removal of condensate and CO2.
> Perhaps our learned  members of the Deck Dept could enlighten us if they have carried bananas in Containers.


My experience with bananas was picking up same in the Canaries on the way home with chilled meat from BA., was to stow them on deck on top of hatches under tarps. No cold stowage as only 5 days to London. Same with tomatoes. Providing no bad weather in Biscay generally arrived in good shape.
Risky because Z Shed In Royal Vic was not always free. If fog or we anchored at Southend to await berth both meat and fruit in
jeopardy, although chilled meat could be frozen and saved.


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

I believe Fyffes used to carry them as deck cargo also, under tents open for and aft. They were fast ships for their time and Barry in South Wales was a favourite port.
I assume in those days the lorrys would load up and go direct to the wholesale fruit markets round the country, auctioned and sold straight to the greengrocers.
One night a week was always banana sandwiches as a kid. Brother liked salad cream on his, what ever floats your boat.
A few years back whilst on holiday in Maderia we joined a walk along the 'lavadas' terraces on the hillsides where the bananas grow. 
The walk leader said the trouble is now, supermarkets won't accept our bananas because they were too small, yet before supermarkets they sold well in Britain.


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## Peter Hewson (Mar 12, 2019)

Challisstern said:


> banana sandwiches as a kid.


I don`t remember seeing bananas back in the green grocer prior to about 1950? I think we got Banana sandwiches on the Coronation day street party though?, and Ice Cream and Trifle, several of us were "ill" by way of over indulgence 🤣

Wasn`t Barry Geest Home Port?.

Pete


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

Peter,
You have a few years on me, I may be talking late 50's and into the 60's, but at least you put a date on when bananas started to be imported. I have a feeling my mother said nobody knew what they were when they first came into the shops, but now they are a staple fruit, much like advocado pears when they arrived. Now that people travel worldwide no fruit and veg is a suprise.
Until I lived ìn Florida early 80's I had never seen or eaten a zuchini/ courgette or yellow summer squash. I grow them now.


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

Peter Hewson said:


> I don`t remember seeing bananas back in the green grocer prior to about 1950? I think we got Banana sandwiches on the Coronation day street party though?, and Ice Cream and Trifle, several of us were "ill" by way of over indulgence 🤣
> 
> Wasn`t Barry Geest Home Port?.
> 
> Pete


Sailed with a "frosty" called Colin Parry from Barry my first trip at sea as eng cadet, his lovely wife Ruth and himself got robbed at gunpoint in Bolivar, Colombia when going for a run ashore, didn't even get outside dock gates and really shook them up.


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## Shipwatcher3 (Apr 1, 2017)

I have seen a picture pre container, of bananas in large open construction wooden crates being loaded 2 to a lorry at the docks.


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## rustytrawler (Jul 6, 2021)

Hi taff i got shot at in Jamaica,, i was in the car park at Dunns river falls, i was lucky that day the shot landed in a bench i was sat on


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

More lives than a Cheshire cat Rùsty, or the shooter forgot his sights on his blunderbuss 🤣


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## Shipwatcher3 (Apr 1, 2017)

I was in Jamaca in the mid 1980s. I was told by the hotel staff not to venture out after dark. Standing at the front door one night just looking around when a polished Ford Zepher Six drove by with a man hanging out of the rear window with a large chrome plated revolver shooting up into the air. I very quickly retired indoors. I had previously asked what all the fireworks were for at night, to be told they were not fireworks but rival drug gangs fighting for territory in the hills.


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## Peter Hewson (Mar 12, 2019)

Not just Jamaica either, On a Campground in Phoenix (Arizona) in 2013, late night "fireworks" on the nearby road, turned out to be gangs having a shootout with local Law enforcement!!. "I fought the law, and the law won?".

Pete


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## b38fulford (7 d ago)

Tony the hippy chippy said:


> That's a good question as a chippy on refer ship's I remember the bilges being 6 foot deep I took soundings twice a day as the banana's sweat considerably these were big bilges 4 in each hold always virtually full regards tony


I was on the GOLFITO A BANANA BOAT If the cooling system fails the cargo will ripen to slush ... On a different ship it happen and the cargo hold that fail ed All the bananas were .. dumped at sea


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## Nick.Cardew (Nov 19, 2011)

Banana Boats - First Trip:
My first trip at sea as Eng Cadet with British & Commonwealth (ne Cayzer Irvine) was on the Stirling Universal Reefer. Sailed from Tilbury to Porto Bolivar, Equador, in about 1982, The boxes were brought in on trucks, and each stevidor had 2-3 boxes on their shoulders, and was walking up planks into bananas doors on the vessel side, straight into the holds. As each level in the hold was filled, the tween deck was lowered, then next deck level filled. There were about 4-5 levels if i remember, and probably about 250,000 boxes, each about 16kg. All via man labour. Vessel used a ship chasing us.s fridge system to cool them. Took about 3-4 days.





Stirling Universal


A Record of The British & Commonwealth Shipping Company. The Companies, the ships and the people that manned them.




www.bandcstaffregister.com




She was a well built boat, comfortable and fast (22kts)

We did a similar run from Valparaiso Chile, again all cargo going to Europe. It was the time of the Falklands War and we nearly ended up there as we could do
I remember the place well, as got mugged for my watch first run ashore! The bars were pretty basic with mud floors, exotic ladies selling their wares, an eye opener. I remember returning to the boat that night withe sparky and 3rd mate, in a taxi whilst locals with knives chased us! Happy days. As I did about 6 months on her, trips through Panama and Suez canal, great first trip.

My next and final trip as cadet would be a double header UK to Auz/NZ on the OCL Resolution Bay, container ship, and I never got back on a reefer. I have some pics of loading bananas, will dig out.


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

Nick I replied to this thread earlierbut but must have been mistaken as I thought Bolivar was in Colombia , like you said it was rather wild as the frosty and his wife got mugged for their valuables like yourself and the same night the deck cadet got shot in his leg (when he returned to the ship from the local hospital he had the bullet they extracted in a plastic vial as a memento)😅


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

Smart fast looking ships as a lot of reefers were. Most British ships were well looked after, then you saw the rust buckets of the flag of convenience fleets.
Taffe your correct on your geography, Bolivar was another banana port, it would have been Guayaquil in Ecuador, both ports a bit wild as most of South America was in those days.


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

Challisstern said:


> Smart fast looking ships as a lot of reefers were. Most British ships were well looked after, then you saw the rust buckets of the flag of convenience fleets.
> Taffe your correct on your geography, Bolivar was another banana port, it would have been Guayaquil in Ecuador, both ports a bit wild as most of South America was in those days.


I,m pretty sure guayaquil was our next port but never had a run ashore but still had a good time as the other ship alongside with us was M.V. ANDES (Furness Withy) and when we formed a boarding party was amazed to see my mate Roland Morris was onboard ( we were both in Plymouth school of maritime studies together just months before), what a party we had.


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## Challisstern (2 mo ago)

One time in Guayaqil there was a BI ship? ( black funnel with red and white bands at the top)ahead of us and a couple of their chaps came over during the day, perhaps on the beg.
So we got talking and it seems that their OM was a bit of a stuffed shirt type (don't think they used those words) and closed their bar at 10.30 each night. That port nobody went up the road. It was suggested their chaps came over that night and use (intership darts match as an excuse). Of course their OM came as well full uniform, so we made sure that the festivities went well past 10.30 pm, when their OM left. Think they had foreign crew but chippy was white so he was an officer or CPO and wore same uniform but with blue stripes and probably same accomodation as officers. 
In BSL, it said Officers Smokeroom above the door, so the OM had to be invited, usually by the Mate, but it wasn't formal. Seems on one ship the OM was in his cups and started ****ging one of the lads off, so the 2nd asked to have a word with him outside and told him that he was a visitor and to return to his cabin, which he did and nothing was said the next day. Obviously realised the error of his ways and less said soonest mended.
Same OM different ship decided when they arrived at St. Helena on the Falkand cruise to drop anchor in this clear area with no ships about , despite the 2nd Mate informing him they couldn't achor there, but he did.
Needless to say when they raised the anchor he realised why, they had snagged the telephone cable. And it parted.
I believe he retired early. Same OM, if he found there were officers with medal ribbons on their Blues, he would change the rig of the day to Red Sea Rig. Despite that he was a good OM, excellent ship handler, he even arranged a bit of ras'ing from his ship to ours
whilst at anchor as we were short of diesel up at the Khoramshah(Iran) anchorage.
Thats another story.


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## funnelstays (Nov 19, 2008)

l


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## funnelstays (Nov 19, 2008)

funnelstays said:


> l
> View attachment 695907


Arrangement of No 1 Lower Hold Ventilation Monte Class Vessels Hamburg Süd was 2/E on.German flag before Mærsk Line days.Refitted new trunking while anchored off Rio Grande do Sul after sailing light ship trans Magellan then reefer to East Coast US bananas ex Cartagena.


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## jnorm59 (Oct 9, 2020)

b38fulford said:


> I was on the GOLFITO A BANANA BOAT If the cooling system fails the cargo will ripen to slush ... On a different ship it happen and the cargo hold that fail ed All the bananas were .. dumped at sea


I was on the Carinthia (Cunard Reefer) in 1978 with a cargo of bananas for Livorno ex Martinique, which were green when loaded but brown on arrival. The frig. engineer was not popular and we spent days back at sea dumping them.


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

"Frig. Engineer" ? must have been popular with the girls in Martinique 🤣.


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