# Institute of Marine Engineers



## ART6

I joined the Institute of Marine Engineers in 1958, and passed my 45 year membership in 2003. So I have been a member for 54 years. That is not a boast. I just want someone to tell me where the hell all of those years went to!

I left the career I loved many years ago now, but in my mind I still prowl ships engine rooms (steam of course). I still vividly recall leaving port and, on "full away" changing over to the ahead turbine third extraction from the live steam range. I remember the laborious task as a 4/E on the eight to twelve having to dismantle the LOPs and clean out the crud, or as 3/E on the twelve to four blowing tubes to keep the boilers working and doing the boiler water analyses on the night watch, regulating the metering pump supply of amines accordingly.

There were the hours spent on watch, standing by the log desk under a vent, and picturing in my mind what could go wrong and how I would deal with it. I invented scenarios, and thought out solutions, and if I wasn't sure of those solutions then I asked the "Sec" for advice.

Then there was the time of having been promoted to senior second engineer, in the days when the ships had crews larger that two men and a dog. Everyone called me "Sec." and they were all careful to avoid my criticism (because their errors would have to be explained by me to the chief, who would not necessarily be forgiving). That meant going down into the engine room at 0700 to talk to the J2/E (who was the senior watchkeeper), and to review the engine room log with a view to sorting out any problems and assigning the resources to deal with them -- field days for the responsible watchkeeper!

There were those big once-in-a-lifetime events when, as senior second engineer on the throttles during manoeuvrings we received five double rings astern in succession as the bridge attempted to navigate in a place where no ship should be. Each one meant spinning the ahead valve shut while spinning open the astern at the same time, while in the boiler room the 3/E was withdrawing and inserting burners like a madman. This on a ship that had never previously ever survived one double ring astern. We did it because we had the best ships engineers in the business, time served men from the shipyards of the Tyne and Glasgow and London Graving Dock, or Sammy White's on the Isle of Wight or wherever, and the Old Man issued a case of Tennants to every engineer afterwards. 

These were men for whom "The Job" was all that was important. Don't feel well? Then get yer **** down below and you'll feel better. Burned your hand on a steam pipe? Then keep yer hands to yourself in future! Had a few drinks too many in the saloon? That will sweat out of you in ten minutes on the control flat. Boiled yer foot in the spillage from the 'vap? Get a bigger boot then!

Young men, without a semblance of sense but with an absolute pride as the ships engineers. Competing with the mates, who understood such abstract things as where we were going and how to get there, and so were superior beings and officers, but when they rang that telegraph they got what they needed even if we had to rip our beloved engines apart to provide it. That was the pride -- we can do whatever you call for!

On my first ship, as a lowly junior engineer on his first trip, my 4/E watchkeeper pointed to the red button in the centre of the panel on the control flat and said "That is the engineers alarm. You never, ever, touch that on my watch!" 

That was the pride in "the job". You, up on the bridge, wherever you want to go we will get you there because without you we will go nowhere. 

Where did those magical days go?


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## Graham Wallace

Thanks Art,

Memories,Memories, I joined the Institute of Marine Engineers around October 1955 as a Probationary Student and for the next 2 years went regularily to Institute meetings at 'The Minories' in London. those were the early days of the Alternative scheme for Marine Engineers, I really wonder what those old grizzled guys thought of us, 17 year olds who had not a clue but eventually began to see the light (Toc H lamp ?). 

I eventually left BP Tanker Co and the sea in 1962 with a Second's Steam ticket and reached the exalted rank of Graduate Member and kept up the Membership for another 20 years, really just to read the transactions. However I have never forgotten my membership number (17074)

For a few years after leaving the sea I worked for Beldam Asbestos/AutoKlean Strainers. Aspen Beldam was the original owner of the Company and also a founding Member of the Institute of Marine Engineers. Robert Beldam the Managing Director during my years was not as far as I know a Marine Engineer.

After retirement I started 'volunteering' at the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes in Kingston (Ontario) it was there in there archives I found a copy of the Institutes Year book for 1957, and there in all its glory came across my name and home address... still a Probationary Student. That became the catalyst for what I have been doing for the last 14 years, running a website for BP Marine Engineering Apprentices (and now all ex BP seagoing Personnel all ranks/ratings ,all Departments)

A few years later I was visiting UK and in a second handbookstore Sussex came across a copy of the Institute of Marine Engineers Centenary Handbook and list of Members1989. It proved invaluable to me in my searchings for ex BP Marine Engineering Apprentices and Marine Engineers. I was really surprised that so many members living in UK had never changed their address for 20/30 years. You have to be there Art, send me a PM if you are interested.

My stay at sea was certainly short compared to Art6, but the memories are still vivid, I only need to smell an engine room hot or cold and there I am again walking the plates!

I became MI Mech E, C Eng but also eventually resigned from them, it was a really hard decision to leave both Institutions but living in Canada for the last 4+ decades was a different challenge.

Graham


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## Burntisland Ship Yard

Hi "Art" I think you speak for many of us, when no doubt we have our little quiet time to think about the days many years ago. I bet, if there was still such a steam ship you [again like most of us] could go straight on watch keeping as if it had only been yesterday....


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## Barrie Youde

Many thanks, Art! Splendid stuff!

On the subject of doing anything which the bridge might ask for, what did you make of Richard Gordon's well-known observation in "Doctor at Sea"? 

As the Quack, RG was of course as independent of bridge or engine-room as as anybody could be. But I always thought that his observation that the engines were calculated to arrive in port at some time before the ship arrived was quite priceless!

For the many of us who never knew a big end from a little end, would you allow us that one? Wonderful stuff!


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## Duncan112

Barrie Youde said:


> Many thanks, Art! Splendid stuff!
> 
> On the subject of doing anything which the bridge might ask for, what did you make of Richard Gordon's well-known observation in "Doctor at Sea"?
> 
> As the Quack, RG was of course as independent of bridge or engine-room as as anybody could be. But I always thought that his observation that the engines were calculated to arrive in port at some time before the ship arrived was quite priceless!
> 
> For the many of us who never knew a big end from a little end, would you allow us that one? Wonderful stuff!


Forget where I read it but the definition of slip was "That phenomenon whereby the propellor arrives in port some time before the body corporate"


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## Varley

I am just back from the AGM, European Council meeting and the HQ Dinner (a splendid but still affordable penguin suit affair). I cannot be branch chairman again next year (my two years will be up) but I certainly intend to attend next year if only for the scoff and galleysat. 

IMarEST remains very active with the (we are told a minority in global terms) of marine engineers it has on its books. It wants and deserves more. Similarly it aims to support all professionals in the industry but that very much does not mean it has forgotten its plumbers (sorry).

Don't let a young mariner, marine scientist or even electrician go by you without singing its praise - and offering an application form!

All sorts of good stuff is available on line (some to members only) and there is more to come.

It may not seem that the IMarEST is a natural home for me compared with IEEE. But if you practice at sea or in the marine industry any narrow expertise is better practiced in a more catholic technical environment. IMarEST is part of that environment.
David V


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## ART6

Burntisland Ship Yard said:


> Hi "Art" I think you speak for many of us, when no doubt we have our little quiet time to think about the days many years ago. I bet, if there was still such a steam ship you [again like most of us] could go straight on watch keeping as if it had only been yesterday....


You know, I reckon I could too! Even now in my advanced years I still sometimes, in quiet moments of reflection over a tot, find myself thinking odd things like the main condenser vacuum is dropping a bit. Better check the air ejectors and take a look at the sea temperature and the several other possible causes and fix it. Or the water level in the boilers seems to have dropped according to the Bailey indicators, and there's nowt showing in the gauge glasses - so shut the steam cocks on the glasses and see if the water level in them comes up. If it does, no panic. Shut off one burner in each boiler until the Bailey board has got things back under control again.

Thought experiments like that, learned at sea, have never left me, and the practise has stood me in good staid over the many years in industry since those days.

Maybe, given the point you made, it would be interesting to create "What would you do if?" thread for ex-steam engineers, before the things we learned are finally consigned to history?


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## Burntisland Ship Yard

ART6 said:


> Maybe, given the point you made, it would be interesting to create "What would you do if?" thread for ex-steam engineers, before the things we learned are finally consigned to history?


Its done now, but of course the motor men can also put their memories in as well....................


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## jimd

Sailed 80 - 86 left with 2nds motor. I can still walk the plates and smell the crankcase. If only things were that simple now.My spanner is now a laptop. Many happy memories.


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## engineer64

When I joined a MN ship after 23 yrs in the RN engineering branch I was surprised how little was known by the MN engineers on eg evaporating plants, density's etc. or on maintenance. I expect these remarks will result in a flood of denials. To show it works both ways ,in the RN we had electrical branch ratings & officers, so I was very unprepared for the 2nd Engineer to have resposibility for the electrics. While on the subject of electrics, it was my only failure when I sat for Chief's ticket. Every time I have had instruction in electrics it seemed to be all theory & no practical, at sea I needed to know how to fix things not design them,or am I biased?


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## Varley

I rather think that highlights one of the prominent failures of RN staff to integrate with a navy that sails on a Wednesday when asked. Specialisation and mission. All to do with a merchant ship is a service to moving the cargo without delay (certainly without delay that the charterer will complain of). The hull supports, the engine propels, the electrics support the engine (and lesser fleas have littler fleas.....). If the Plumber has so little understanding of the electrical auxiliaries (and, indeed, if the electrician has so little appreciation of the plumbing) that he cannot operate where the two interact he is missing a very useful tool, perhaps his most useful. I keep saying the learning that an E/O needs is not great but that little there is is essential (else I would be lost!). As for the application of that learning, that's down to character.

I remember a second leckie we had on Stonehaven from the RN. I am sure (from the way he talked anyway) that he could take a mark something-or-other torpedo apart and put it together again in the dark. Strange to say he had little opportunity to practice this skill onboard and he seemed to have no other. 

Every candidate's details who came across my desk for employment always had as fair a review as any other but the order of work was arranged with RN applications at the bottom in the expectation that I would find the better looking (not like that!) prospects first.

It's not so surprising the two navies appreciate different approaches. We think that it is very bad form to sink a competitor, by any means, there is even a UN regulator which legislates against the slightest denting or spillage. For you, however, it is almost raison d'etre.

It is rather a pity that the politicos have so embarrassed themselves with Victorian adventures in the Hindu Kush that they will not let the RN have a go at properly solving the African piracy problem before it becomes a chronic disease.


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## engineer64

Thank you for your comments, obviously not all MN or RN engineers are the same. My experience in Mobil tankers was for some time as a roving Maintenance Team Manager, I plus 4 Indian fitters would carry out onboard, en-passage repairs. I worked on several ships with German Engineers. On one occasion the 2lb hammers we were offered had steel pipe welded to the hammer head, we were expected to split nuts etc, with them!!. Although as a 2nd even with my limited electrical knowledge by using logic & careful checking I was able to get an emergency diesel generator to work by checking timing switches. My last sea going job in the RN was Engineer Officer of the department, the ships propulsion was dieso/electric. When I did the oral part of the Chief's exam. the examiner spent most of the time asking about the system we had. I realise That there will always be debate on MN/RN experience, lets call it a draw.


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## makko

En-passage repair team - known as a Riding Squad. I think that the main difference regarding MN/RN is that MN is more hands on. There are only four engineers plus E/O to keep the job going and a couple of ER mechanics.
Rgds.
Dave


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## Varley

Plumber 64 - I was expecting a bit more fight. I would then have had to admit that the man instrumental to my joining the shore staff was ex RN as was one of the best masters/ship managers we had as was a 2/E.

On a more serious note, depending on when you changed horses, you may have seen the result of the fairly quick and deliberate change in planned maintenance strategy.

The late 70's early 80s brought a change in freight rates that made the penalties for off hire far less severe than earlier. Maintenance had been planned to avoid all off hire - the penalty in the materials used in 'maintenance -max' being easily afforded from earnings. When the balance changed, so did maintenance policy - periods arbitrarily lengthened (with some effort for consideration of condition as an alternative) or simply waiting for breakdown (especially where that would cause no additional spare part consumption). Had you ventured less hesitantly into electrickery you would have heard (but not dared repeat, less the Plumbers misunderstood) 'intelligent neglect' or 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' but do try an prevent it from getting broke.


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## engineer64

Three kinds of ex-RN joined the ER branch of the MN. First were ex-officers who joined as Cadets & reached the rank of at least Lieutenent Commander, they were given exemption for Chief. I was in the second group, joined the RN before my 17th birthday, did 14 years on the lower deck , from Stoker to Chief Mechanician, then 9yrs as an officer, given exemption for a 2nd Class, motor& steam Certificate. The third group usually senior rates ERA's & Mechanicians, given 3rd Class tickets. 
I think it's fair to say I had lots of "hands on" at the coal face for 14 yrs. I was trained to operate & maintain machinery to organise & run the engineering branch aboard a warship. RN Captains were wont to call their Marine Engineer Officer (MEO) , Chief, as in the MN.
I went on a course at Westcliff-on-sea, while with Mobil along with other engineers. I gave a lecture on Planned Maintenance, this was in 1975, I think the concept of maintenance designed to prevent breakdowns was a new thought for them.
As previously stated electrics was the area I was unfamiliar with, however, in Matco Thames ,motor tanker, I had a thought to check the carbons on the bow thrust generator, good job I did, they were on the last leg. It may sound boastful, but I managed. I consider myself to have been an old school engineer, resourceful, adaptible & always making use of, sight,sound,feel & smell, when in an engine or boiler room. Enough for now.


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## Malky Glaister

Varley I had to give up on the Institute many years ago. Despite having a combined Chiefs Ticket and a lot of experience I could not become a member. I studied for an Open University degree but was told it's not good enough.
I also became disillusioned with the magazine and it's contents bearing little to do with my marine engineering and also that the membership new chaps would never be able to start a Sulzer engine up never mind a Doxford LB.
It had become an arrogant, in my opinion, expensive exclusive club with little to do with it's original purpose. I became bitter at the age of fifty and by some accounts a grumpy old ****** nowadays!!

l
Looking forward to meeting you at the J&J re-union!!

regards

Malky


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## R58484956

You might have stood a chance with an Extras. A friend of mine got in with a 2nd,s and another friend a shipyard manager got in without any ticket. It seems they make the rules as they go along.


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## Malky Glaister

Couldn't afford to go for Extras otherwise I would have done. No one around here knows what a Chiefs ticket is anyway!!! (nor cares either) 

regards

Malky


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## chadburn

Malky, you just have to read some of the comment's to understand why many of us dropped out and the present Membership is so low.


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## ART6

Malky Glaister said:


> Varley I had to give up on the Institute many years ago. Despite having a combined Chiefs Ticket and a lot of experience I could not become a member. I studied for an Open University degree but was told it's not good enough.
> I also became disillusioned with the magazine and it's contents bearing little to do with my marine engineering and also that the membership new chaps would never be able to start a Sulzer engine up never mind a Doxford LB.
> It had become an arrogant, in my opinion, expensive exclusive club with little to do with it's original purpose. I became bitter at the age of fifty and by some accounts a grumpy old ****** nowadays!!
> Malky


This, I think, was the problem for a number of marine engineers. When I first joined the Institute, as far as I recall, one had to be a seagoing engineer. Then it became that a chief's ticket was necessary for corporate membership. By the time I had got that far a degree was required, when as far as I know there were no marine engineering degree courses. Even if there were, I couldn't afford such things. Now, God alone knows what qualification one would need -- a PhD and chartered engineer status? I get the impression that actually going to sea and serving in a ships engine room has nothing to do with it. It is the continual thrust to become and remain a learned society.

I have remained a lowly member all these years simply because I enjoyed reading Transactions and keeping in touch with the industry (or what little remains of it), but I lost interest in its other affairs and the endless pursuit of qualifications long ago. 

The lack of qualifications that the Institute deemed essential didn't hold me back in my subsequent career -- deputy chief engineer in a power station, then principal mechanical engineer for a regional authority responsible for a 1,400 vehicle transport fleet and the authority's electrical and mechanical engineering services, followed by thirty years as engineering director in several companies including two PLCs, responsible for the design and operation of large engineering process plants. The Institute, however, would not consider me to be an engineer at all! My only reaction is "So what? Suit yerselves!" The shareholders didn't seem to be too bothered by my apparent ignorance and lack of education.

However, given the state of the merchant and royal navies nowadays, I suppose if the Institute remained solely for serving marine engineers it would now be about the size of a village women's institute!


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## howardws

engineer64 said:


> When I joined a MN ship after 23 yrs in the RN engineering branch I was surprised how little was known by the MN engineers on eg evaporating plants, density's etc. or on maintenance. I expect these remarks will result in a flood of denials. To show it works both ways ,in the RN we had electrical branch ratings & officers, so I was very unprepared for the 2nd Engineer to have resposibility for the electrics. While on the subject of electrics, it was my only failure when I sat for Chief's ticket. Every time I have had instruction in electrics it seemed to be all theory & no practical, at sea I needed to know how to fix things not design them,or am I biased?


Possibly the difference is in the original training of MN and RN Engineers. 

If you came up through the ranks in the RN you would possibly have done such jobs as evaporator watchkeeper, boiler room watchkeeper, generator watchkeeper, (A colleague of mine was shaft tunnel watchkeeper on 'Eagle' - 4 tunnels, dozens of bearings and when at flying stations hatch after hatch to open and close while making his rounds - he would get round four times in a watch). All these jobs would allow the watchkeeper, if interested, to become an expert in his field and in some cases would entail training courses.

Now take me as fairly typical, I was an Engineer Cadet with Caltex and when I was six months off completing my time I became the 8 - 12 watchkeeper on a tanker with an LB Doxford main engine. (£64-14s-4d a month instead of £25-0s-0d!) I then moved on to geared turbine ships with Caltex and then Container Fleets. Most of what I knew was from the experience picked up while running all the machinery in the engine room. I was responsible for everything eight hours a day and didn't have time to become a specialist.


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## Varley

On the ImarEST (or as it was the IMarE) the change that accompanied the exclusion of Certificated men from membership (although there were junior grades - where I started) was the policy to match the grade requirements of the equivalent Institutions (Father whilst not arrogant would never have considered his IMechE membership vastly superior to anything to which we could aspire on CoC alone). Let me assure you that that situation did not survive that long and if Member is not immediately granted there is a clear continuous development path (although I seemed to make Associate Member from Associate by dint of good behaviour).

Your complaint is, however, very well known and frequently heard. It is a thing of the past. Do encourage the young (of whatever flavour and creed). Don't cut off your nose to spite a good dinner every now and again either!

(Most branches' presentations are open to non members the website SHOULD have the latest programme).


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## ccurtis1

I have to agree entirely with Malky and Art6. The institute, originally a forum for sea-going marine engineers was hi-jacked by shore side people who would not know a Sulzer from a London transport bus.


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## engineer64

Howardws, the tasks you mentioned I certainly did as a junior rating. I did trade training as a fitter & turner while in the RN. As a senior rating I was qualified & did watches in charge of boiler & engine rooms. As an officer I was responsible for maintenance & running of two engine rooms, four shafts. I was qualified to be an Engineer in charge of a ships ER dept. As the MEO (Chief) of a warship it was my duty to try & test main engines, steering gear & syrens, reporting to the Captain, before the vessel sailed. I never saw that routine carried out in a MN vessel, good job I did, one ship the tiller head gear was about to fall apart, a loosened nut. When 2nd in Mobil I sailed with Chief Engineers who very, very rarely ventured into the ER.
I also was a C.Eng. M.I.MarE. when I had to go ashore (hearing loss) the qualification ment zero, so my subscription stopped.
It would seem to make any comparison one should have experience of both services.
As the Marine Engineer Officer of a RN ship I was responsible 24/7/52.


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## howardws

engineer64 said:


> As the MEO (Chief) of a warship it was my duty to try & test main engines, steering gear & syrens, reporting to the Captain, before the vessel sailed. I never saw that routine carried out in a MN vessel,.


I don't know what companies you sailed with but when I was deep sea with Caltex and Container Fleets I don't think I ever departed a port when all that wasn't carried out, although by the watchkeeper or Second Engineer, not the Chief. In Container Fleets we had a big book of instructions for all sorts of things, including what to test and how to test it before sailing.

On the P&O Ferries cross channel ships it is carried out once a day - with ten departures a day it is pointless doing it each time.


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## Varley

howardws said:


> I don't know what companies you sailed with but when I was deep sea with Caltex and Container Fleets I don't think I ever departed a port when all that wasn't carried out, although by the watchkeeper or Second Engineer, not the Chief. In Container Fleets we had a big book of instructions for all sorts of things, including what to test and how to test it before sailing.
> 
> On the P&O Ferries cross channel ships it is carried out once a day - with ten departures a day it is pointless doing it each time.


Howard, absolutely. From telegraph testing, visual check of turning gear to turning the engine on air although why the second would be testing the whistle is a little strange. Not to mention routines for arrival.


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## howardws

Varley said:


> Howard, absolutely. From telegraph testing, visual check of turning gear to turning the engine on air although why the second would be testing the whistle is a little strange. Not to mention routines for arrival.


No, I don't suppose we did test the whistle, although someone did, if only to make sure we hadn't shut off the steam supply!


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## Burntisland Ship Yard

Interesting stream now, we are getting down to what we knew as basics, in terms of getting the job ready to sail.

No matter what ship I sailed on and either single or double handed watches the process of getting the job ready be it steam or motor ship did not change significantly.

"steam on the job" with bridge concurrence first, 2nd diesel / t.a prep warm up, and paralyse [some times leckie would do], steam / air on deck, steering gear start up, with concurrence from bridge, check functionality of gear in conjunction with bridge, make sure boiler/ s burners were all ready etc etc etc, and of course give who ever a shake / call [posh ships had cabin telephones !] and of course get the kettle on. To name but a few things, would need to get my brain further engaged for more.......


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## uisdean mor

Burntisland Ship Yard said:


> Interesting stream now, we are getting down to what we knew as basics, in terms of getting the job ready to sail.
> 
> No matter what ship I sailed on and either single or double handed watches the process of getting the job ready be it steam or motor ship did not change significantly.
> 
> "steam on the job" with bridge concurrence first, 2nd diesel / t.a prep warm up, and paralyse [some times leckie would do], steam / air on deck, steering gear start up, with concurrence from bridge, check functionality of gear in conjunction with bridge, make sure boiler/ s burners were all ready etc etc etc, and of course give who ever a shake / call [posh ships had cabin telephones !] and of course get the kettle on. To name but a few things, would need to get my brain further engaged for more.......


Supply pen for movement book because the chief had nicked it when he came down for the log on arrival in order to complete his returns.


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## Steve Hodges

I'm sure I was not the only one who, looking at going into the Alternative Entry scheme in 1968, realised that I could take a career path to Chartered Engineer through full membership of the Institute with Combined Chief's in my late 20's - AND be paid by BP for every single day of it from age 16!
" Brilliant!" I thought " almost too good to be true!". and sure enough it was. Like many others, no doubt, I dropped out of the IMarE when they changed the full membership requirement to Extra Chief's.
Never ever regretted choosing to train as a marine engineer though....


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## Chillytoes

When I read Malky Glaister's post No. 16, I thought I had written it! 
I quit IMarE in the late 70's for exactly the same reasons. The fact that persons with university qualifications unrelated to marine engineering could become Members and I couldn't turned me off. It also would have been helpful if they had provided a forum where problems could be discussed, designs changed and the industry helped to reach greater efficiency instead concentrating on their perceived "status". 
At least that's how it seemed to me.
Varley's suggestion that "It's all different now" is just a little too late. For me and many others the damage was done.


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## romney01

I also gave up with the institute recently. In 1981 I joned I.mar.E. as a Cunard engineer with an HND from Southampton College of Higher Education. I went on to take the CEI part II exams to qualify as a chartered engineer. Leaving the sea I later became engineering manager and Vice President at Woodward (maker of the UG8 and PGA governors) during that time my membership "lapsed". Recently tried to rejoin and although I still had my membership number and my framed membership certificate the nice young lady I corresponded with said it as all too long ago and they didn't keep the records so I would have to start again. I hit "delete" and moved on.


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## kauvaka

ART 6 , In your starter on this interesting thread you mention that as 4/E on the 8-12 you cleaned the crud from the dismantled LOPs and the 3/E withdrawing and inserting burners like a madman. What was the Fireman/ Greaser doing whilst this was going on? As an ex F/G on BP these tasks were usually done by us. Those big boilers with the Bailey (sp?) boards were good for us though, change and clean the tips at Full Away then only weekly thereafter whilst deepsea. Bit different to a steam recip scotch boiler job I was on where it was every watch and sometimes twice a watch. Was on the BP Supervisor as Donkey/greaser, cruising the UK coast and in port every few hours and the gingerbeers down below only for standby to berth and berth to fullaway as they worked cargo, 2 D/Gs working 6 on 6 off . You mention the double ring on the telegraph. I was on either the Valour or the Aviator and had just gone below to the boiler room on the night 12-4 with the vessel underway slow ahead to join a southbound Suez convoy when it happened, a double ring full astern. Then it was all on. A French tanker scraping down our hull and taking the ER paint store off the a*** end. Could see stars from the end of the tunnel. Good ships, good accommodation and good feeders.


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## kauvaka

ART 6 , In your starter on this interesting thread you mention that as 4/E on the 8-12 you cleaned the crud from the dismantled LOPs and the 3/E withdrawing and inserting burners like a madman. What was the Fireman/ Greaser doing whilst this was going on? As an ex F/G on BP these tasks were usually done by us. Those big boilers with the Bailey (sp?) boards were good for us though, change and clean the tips at Full Away then only weekly thereafter whilst deepsea. Bit different to a steam recip scotch boiler job I was on where it was every watch and sometimes twice a watch. Was on the BP Supervisor as Donkey/greaser, cruising the UK coast and in port every few hours and the gingerbeers down below only for standby to berth and berth to fullaway as they worked cargo, 2 D/Gs working 6 on 6 off . You mention the double ring on the telegraph. I was on either the Valour or the Aviator and had just gone below to the boiler room on the night 12-4 with the vessel underway slow ahead to join a southbound Suez convoy when it happened, a double ring full astern. Then it was all on. A French tanker scraping down our hull and taking the ER paint store off the a*** end. Could see stars from the end of the tunnel. Good ships, good accommodation and good feeders.


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## Varley

Chillytoes said:


> When I read Malky Glaister's post No. 16, I thought I had written it!
> I quit IMarE in the late 70's for exactly the same reasons. The fact that persons with university qualifications unrelated to marine engineering could become Members and I couldn't turned me off. It also would have been helpful if they had provided a forum where problems could be discussed, designs changed and the industry helped to reach greater efficiency instead concentrating on their perceived "status".
> At least that's how it seemed to me.
> Varley's suggestion that "It's all different now" is just a little too late. For me and many others the damage was done.


That's a little bit cake and eat it. The institute moved. The 'body plumbing' objected, the institute moved back, or at least made another move in response, yet you continue to pan it. I understand why individuals will have been permanently pissed off (that includes our local treasurer with his extra Chief's who still highlights that period but persevered to be now a Fellow). I am pleased that the steer against the Institute will only be seen by us old farts and won't discourage the 'up and coming' from joining.


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## sternchallis

After being ashore for 20 years and having kept my membership up as Ass Member ( 1st Class Motor), when I became unemployed at 50 years of age, miles from the sea, I was able pay a reduced fee. The following year when I applied for it ( still not in full time employment) they said I wasn't entitled to it and had to pay the full fee for the previous year. So I took stock of things- the number of MER's reduced, became thinner, it catered for those that had got degrees in plankton, Transactions became copies of some body's thesis on subjects hardly anything to do with ships.
I did ask the Institute what do I actually get for the £250 they wanted to charge me to belong to this club for all expense paid members very few of which had ever been in ships ER.
" Well we have the Headquarters building (members for the use of), and conferences ( all requiring payment extra, on weird subjects) the priviledge of using the nominals, (on highbrow subjects), MER (soon to be electronic only same with the Transactions), yearly bun fights at the Grosvenor hotel, attendance at Branch Meetings (they had put me in a branch in Kent , when I lived in Newbury, the closest branch was Portsmouth/ Southampton a 4 hour round trip drive). They also messed about with the nominals to try to pacify us Marine Engineers, but it didn't make any difference. It was a rich boys (and even girls) club.
Then the CEO (used to be called the Secretary) disapeared under a cloud, the Institute loosing money fast having moved out of Mark Lane, so forever spending lots of money to refurb two other places. Seemed every job they advertised for required a degree in something even the clerks plus a fat salary to go with the fancy titles. Most companies I applied to for jobs did not know what a Marine Engineer was or who Inst MarEng were. So I gave up my membership.
I would aggree with the comments of the above members who also left.


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## Burntisland Ship Yard

Name change Institute of Marine Engineering, Science and Technology - Wikipedia


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## sternchallis

Burntisland Ship Yard said:


> Name change Institute of Marine Engineering, Science and Technology - Wikipedia


When I joined it was the Institute of Marine Engineers, for people like us, not pond life students. That what it also says on my Certificate, so its good enough for me. 
It seemed to have followed the same route as the AEU, the engineers ( fitters really) union, that took on all sorts of non engineering trades and labourers then was swallowed up by somebody else and the Engineering bit disapeared. The thinking big is better, more members, higher salaries for the people who are running it.
Before all these changes started at I.Mar.Eng, they approached RINA, as both NA's and Mar. Eng's design ships together, but as all N.A's had degrees and were CEng or FEng, they didn't want to dilute their membership by the likes of us sea going engineers. So it fell through. I suppose the writing was on the wall, shipyards closing, shipping companies disapearing, flagging out and filling the ships with bamboo tickets, membership dwindling, there was only Class and DOT left. Members of our era coming ashore and changing industries, such that IMarEng wasn't relavent, plus its greed for gold, putting up fees and reducing services.
One of the interesting sections of MER was, the Gray Line, in which one of our bretheren used to snub his nose at the way the Marine Industry was going and was quite right as well. They stopped letters to the editor as it failed to be a technical forum , just a sniping session. I am sure how forefathers used that section quite a bit describing machinery failures and giving technical advice.

What say you Mr. Varley, you have obviously seen the changes being involved at Branch level.


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## Varley

#36

I am flattered that you should ask although I am not sure I am best placed to answer.

If one wants a place at the top table your team has to play by the rules of those already with a place. If you look at the learned societies (largely with the title Institution) which governed the world of shipping and shipbuilding you will see that, until recently, few of their Members and Fellows cited, or had, IMarE accreditation cited. IESES, IMechE, RINA and IEE rules the roost (and in terms of things electric IEC still rules today).

If you want an exclusive club as a cosy retreat where one can be sure of meeting only those who have made it to the manoeuvring platform and to have done so starting with a trade based training and certification recognised only by the industry (saving a few enlightened exceptions) then that is what the old IMarEST could only be. That is not to say that that is not what we are also today with some branches having substantia social funds ton provide or indemnify both true blow out events (Liverpool's Plumbers' ball) and more sedate social functions (alas we are not one of those rich branches, we subsist on the HQ Grant all of which goes towards providing presentations and, or so we try and are are charged to do, encouraging youngsters into the industry. Our last social function was our Titanic Ball in 2012 and even then sweated a bit over the need, at least, to not make a loss. As it is we raised GBP 4000 for the Institute's Guild of Benevolence - and a mild rebuke from RINA to remember they also have a Guild and that we are a joint branch! Some expenses in supporting the 'mission' are permitted but we do not even get a free ticket to the HQ bash. It would be disingenuous not to add that when I first joined the committee we could take in the HQ dinner free and I did take up the offer of a ticket but not other expenses. By that time I am not sure if anyone did although it was considered 'fair game' and when it was stopped I noted a marked absence of some of the usual suspects! HQ is in the same position, socialise by all means but not with the Institute's income, even the Guild Hall bash is expected to 'perform').

What goes on now at the top end of the Institute is very different with expert opinion and lobbying of national and international regulatory bodies using expertise, as you say, with members and above being, University entrants.

GB is no longer the centre of ship and ocean science. To maintain the Institute's (and its members) influence in the nations to which that baton has passed we need both the top people and the wherewithall to support them and so, like other learned institutions there has been something of a scrummage for membership and to that end a widening of the disciplines that we would like to represent. I don't think ours has been quite a blatant as the IEE (now IET).

Like the EEC. The place to be heard is at HQ as a member of some level. WRT the Institute a student will be heard everytime but obviously only the degree types will be put to represent the Institute in other arenas. I doubt posting on SN will get you an audience although the Institute does not decry Facebook or Linked-in.

We cannot pass on the finances of the Institute. Sales of assets Savings of rental etc. and continuing to draw-down on capital to fund the current account continues. One of the largest pressures on funding is the staff pension fund. At the AGM in 2019 the projection as to the success, or failure (hotly and annually claimed by the same two members), of the fiscal policy seemed to show it on line to a reasonable and not too distant return to surplus. Once in surplus, of course, then Institute can consider expanding its support and possibly expanding its aims, too. These presently being closer to providing only for that to which is already committed. Lest a passed treasurer's jocular remark that "what the Institute would most benefit from is a plague amongst its pensioners" be taken seriously I am sure that Covid 19 was NOT an institute project.


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