# Lowering of ships antennas etc



## lagerstedt (Oct 16, 2005)

A question from someone who should know the answer. Who had the job of lowering and replacing radio antenna wires etc when along side and when cargo working with shore side cranes? When working on board cranes and derricks etc they would be left in position. did the shore side cranes work around the antennas?

Thanks 
Blair Lagerstedt
NZ(Cloud)


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## MikeK (Jul 3, 2007)

I'm guessing you are talking about a few years back before whip antennaes, when the main ariel was strung between fore and main mast heads. This aerial was lowered on arrival by the sailors and trailed along the offshore decks and over the accom etc. out of the way and then hauled back up on departure.

Mike


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

In the early 1960s on the UK-Flag ships that I sailed, on it was a deck crew job to lower the main and reserve transmitting aerials on arrival (if they crossed any hatches to be worked) and to re-rig them on departure. Normally the Bosun took control of the job without my involvement but occasionally it was necessary to provide a prompt prior leaving port. Suppose it depended on how good a time had been enjoyed ashore. Nevertheless it was always a good idea to have a word with the Bosun before arrival to make sure he knew I would like the aerials lowered, and that I would appreciate if it could be done carefully.

It was important to prevent the aerials being lowered by simply letting go the haul wires/ ropes, thus allowing the weight of the wire and insulators to bring the lot down with a crash on the deck. Since the insulators in those days were constructed of glazed porcelain, this destroyed them and required me to get involved in providing (and indenting for) replacements. They were very expensive and were provided free to the ship-owner under the commonly-used Rental/Maintenance contracts. You quickly became unpopular if you called for too many, too frequently.

We carried replacements but on a coastal hopping trip (loading around Aussie or New Zealand, discharging in UK/near Continent) there would be many ups and downs with the aerials and you could quickly run out before replacements could arrive. Then you had problems.

When I became MIMCo's Operations Manager I quickly had the R/M contract amended to transfer antennas from rental to sale-only items. Usage of insulators (and wire) fell dramatically, since ship superintendents quickly realised the high in-life cost accompanying any lack of care. Then as time passed the overall attractions of self-supporting mast antennas became apparent, whereas previously their high initial cost had ruled them out of the picture when negotiating for a new build. Mast antennas also did not involve and crew overtime costs when arriving/sailing outside normal hours. Suspended wire antennas quickly became a rarity other on a few older vessels'. 

Then came satellite radomes .......


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I remember lowering the aerials on a ship in drydock so that a crane could access the engine room skylight. Big mistake - all of a sudden the job that nobody wanted to do became a demarcation dispute with the Seamen's Union. Whoops. At least I did it by myself and didn't break any insulators. Did I mention this was an Australian ship?

John T


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Not quite a first and last story Ron, but Radomes:

Seatrain were an early adopter of Marisat and I had a Scientific Atlanta on either Asialiner of Eurofreighter. After one crossing the dome was seen to be swivelling, arrested at the end of each part swivel by the cables. All the bolts holding the flange arrangement had in-nutted themselves and fallen out.

Northern Enterprise. The radome, with a view to having no hint of obstruction was mounted at masthead height (much the same as Seatrain's). Whether all the kings horses and men could have put it back together again I know not but they were not there on the delivery voyage when it came tumbling down. Can't remember the maker. EB/Nera perhaps.

I always had them mounted more sanely when the opportunity was presented (quite often. Much retrofitting still in my early days ashore as well as new buildings). Perhaps an odd shadow but we didn't physically loose any more (nor loose any to lightning) compromise is sometimes to optimise although IMO often fails to recognise!.


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## sparks69 (Dec 18, 2005)

My introduction to the MN was going to Dry Dock on the Tyne. I lowered the aerials once in DD. Ten minutes later a huge (and I mean huge) gent with a Geordie Accent stood out side my cabin and politely informed me that if I ever touched the aerials or their associated haliyards again I would be..............
Mind you it was the 1960s.


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## Pat Kennedy (Apr 14, 2007)

We,(the deck crowd) always lowered the radio aerial and the triatic stay once we had finished mooring operations.
While working as a crane driver on the docks in Birkenhead and Liverpool, I sometimes had to stop the job because this had not been done and it was not possible to work cargo with the aerial in place. Usually it was on Greek ships, where they needed reminding. Once I recall starting work on the night shift on a City Line ship in Birkenhead, went over No 2 hatch with a sling of long steel and brought the aerial crashing down.


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## lagerstedt (Oct 16, 2005)

Thanks for replies. During my time with the New Zealad Post Office, we had a few problems in coastal areas with salt water spray build up on insulators. This caused leakage to earth and caused noise on the long open wire lines. While working in the East Cape area of the North Island, from time to time salt water spray caused the odd problem on the antennas insluators at the East Cape Light House. They were checked and replaced, if necessary during annual maintenance. 

Regards
Blair Lagerstedt
NZ


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

I often had to wash the main tx antenna insulators on bulkies after discharge.

One ship I was on even had a permanent fresh water hose/broom arrangement for the job.


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

Seem to remember way back that the deck crew did that job and we had to be very careful that we did not bang the insulators as even a small chip would effect them.


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## 5TT (May 3, 2008)

One class of ship I sailed on a few times had a receiving whip clamped to the port side of the forward mast, and this had to be lowered when we got alongside in Zeebrugge so they could get the gantry cranes over and start working the containers. I hated doing it because it was flipping dangerous, one had to hang on to the ladder with one hand and reach around the side with the other with various spanners so as to disconnect it, then loosen the clamps just enough so as to be able to slide it down, then nip it tight so it wouldn't fall all the way through. The last time I attempted this it was freezing, icicles hanging off the ladder rungs, my hands were numb with cold and I was so terrified that I came down without doing the job, paid a cadet to go up there and do it, which he reluctantly did but in doing so he broke the connection lug clean off. I only really used that antenna for duplex R/T calls so it stayed broken until we headed back south into warmer climes.

No other port insisted we do that, only Zeebrugge but I never knew why.

= Adrian +


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## tom roberts (May 4, 2008)

Lowering the masts and etc when going up to Manchester at the berth just up the canal from Eastham locks I remember well,does anyone else recall this practice?.


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

Troppo said:


> I often had to wash the main tx antenna insulators on bulkies after discharge.
> 
> One ship I was on even had a permanent fresh water hose/broom arrangement for the job.


Remember that when loading at either Dampier or Port Hedland (did both, get them mixed up after all these years) was an absolute necessity to thoroughly scrub the transmitting aerial insulators as that fine iron ore got well and truly melded onto them, and rendered the aerials useless.

Bloody evil job because any gear you were wearing that got that ore onto it literally fell apart afterward.


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## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

tom roberts said:


> Lowering the masts and etc when going up to Manchester at the berth just up the canal from Eastham locks I remember well,does anyone else recall this practice?.


Went up the canal several times stopping at the de funnelling berth just up from Eastham locks. You could see funnels or parts of funnels of vessels already up at Manchester. The ones you didn't see were of those v/l's built for the M/canal transit. On the ones I sailed had telescopic forward masts with signal and radar masts that were lowered on about a pivot. The wire aerials were lowered under the supervision of the bosun, and radar waveguide disconnected and sealed. In my case sealing was achieved with plastic bag and insulating tape, later I was advised a BOT condom was just as effective.
In later years, working for Marconi out of Liverpool office, it was often our task to join an outward bound v/l at Eastham locks, to 'handover' to the R/O, check aerial configurations and reconnection of radar waveguide. Keeping figures crossed that all worked, and whatever the outcome, it was finished before the lock gates opened into the Mersey.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Vessels with height adjustable 'clobber' are a very common sight on the continent.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

BobClay said:


> Remember that when loading at either Dampier or Port Hedland (did both, get them mixed up after all these years) was an absolute necessity to thoroughly scrub the transmitting aerial insulators as that fine iron ore got well and truly melded onto them, and rendered the aerials useless.
> 
> Bloody evil job because any gear you were wearing that got that ore onto it literally fell apart afterward.


The "Raunchy Girls" used to get covered in iron ore when performing in the beer garden of the Esplanade Hotel in Hedland. I wouldn't have minded scrubbing that off them.

John T


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## duquesa (Aug 31, 2006)

*Lowering of ships antennas*

I recall having to do this with my fellow apprentices a few times although usually done by deck crew. No big deal as I remember.


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## expats (Mar 9, 2013)

A few beers (and a decent relationship with the bosun) always seemed to get it done properly...
I used to check before they were put back up (much easier than trying to figure out why Tx didn't work)...All same painting DF loops


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## gwzm (Nov 7, 2005)

One for the R/Os: Entering Antwerp on Brocklebank's Mahronda/GDNB. Called up the local coast station with TR QTP CL QRU? Replies with AS, wait a few seconds and gives QRU. In those few seconds the Indian deck crew had disconnected the main aerial. It was lucky that none of them were electro-plated. I got the Deck Serang (Bosun) and a few of his colleagues into the radio room. I had taped a neon lamp connected to earth on the end of a ruler, fired up the transmitter, touched the neon to the aerial connection on top of the transmitter and pressed they key. I was able to draw an RF arc about a foot long from the aerial connection before it extinguished! They never disconnected the aerial again without checking first.

Happy days


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

On CP Ships E.W. Beatty I had a huge transmitting whip aerial that for some bridges we had to lower. It was fitted with a long jackscrew and took quite a while to drop down using a large swing key.

While I was trying to research this I found that this ship under the name of Apollo Sea was lost with all hands in 1994, also causing a large pollution problem. All this came as a huge surprise to me.


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

I once showed the Bosun and his men how to make a post office splice instead of bulldog grips. They were impressed, but doubt they continued the time consuming process. That was on the MF only Marchon Trader/GWTQ in Whitehaven.

David
+


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I, too, only used PO splices when wire aerials were involved.

(Possibly not if a granny knot of bulldogs had been inherited).


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

I remember making up a completely new main tx antenna during one long stay in port.

I was bored, the old one had seen better days and the nearest town was 200 km away (the ship was a tanker). 

Got it all back up, and fired up the main tx (once we finished loading). The amount of antenna current was amazing! At least 50% higher.

(EDIT) - more an issue of resistance caused by excessive corrosion.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Is "skin effect" in a conductor affected by the age of the conductor? I thought it was all about frequency.

John T


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Copper wire, for sure. The old main ant was green..


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## MikeK (Jul 3, 2007)

BobClay said:


> On CP Ships E.W. Beatty I had a huge transmitting whip aerial that for some bridges we had to lower. It was fitted with a long jackscrew and took quite a while to drop down using a large swing key.
> 
> While I was trying to research this I found that this ship under the name of Apollo Sea was lost with all hands in 1994, also causing a large pollution problem. All this came as a huge surprise to me.


We had a similar whip (was it 8mtrs ?) on a two watch ship I was on (no 'sparks'). One mornong in the Indian Ocean the Old Man had let me down for breakfast and calling in to my cabin for a quick wee there was a big hollow 'bong,bong' from the funnel space behind my toilet bulkhead. On arriving back on the bridge I was confronted by the Master cowering at the back of the wheelhouse with a grey compexion, accompanied by a strong aroma.
He said that we had been struck by lightning with a blue light showing half way down the bridge windows. We set off investigating what damage and saw shreds of some sort of fibre scattered around the bridge wings, that is when we noticed there was no longer a familiar skyline on the monkey island containg a big whip aerial ! All that was left was the stub of the base about 6 inches high. The second of the 'bongs' was the second bolt (it never strikes twice - pull the other one !) The damage from this was harder to find but it turned out to be the next highest thing after the whip, namely the radar scanner which had a nice little molten hole on the top.

It turned out that the only means of communication we had after was the vhf and the other radar everything else including the gps was knocked out until our next port of Columbo and quite a while after that until we managed to get all the necessary spares shipped out

Happy Days !

Mike


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Troppo said:


> Copper wire, for sure. The old main ant was green..


Weren't they all?


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

MikeK said:


> We had a similar whip (was it 8mtrs ?) on a two watch ship I was on (no 'sparks'). One mornong in the Indian Ocean the Old Man had let me down for breakfast and calling in to my cabin for a quick wee there was a big hollow 'bong,bong' from the funnel space behind my toilet bulkhead. On arriving back on the bridge I was confronted by the Master cowering at the back of the wheelhouse with a grey compexion, accompanied by a strong aroma.
> He said that we had been struck by lightning with a blue light showing half way down the bridge windows. We set off investigating what damage and saw shreds of some sort of fibre scattered around the bridge wings, that is when we noticed there was no longer a familiar skyline on the monkey island containg a big whip aerial ! All that was left was the stub of the base about 6 inches high. The second of the 'bongs' was the second bolt (it never strikes twice - pull the other one !) The damage from this was harder to find but it turned out to be the next highest thing after the whip, namely the radar scanner which had a nice little molten hole on the top.
> 
> It turned out that the only means of communication we had after was the vhf and the other radar everything else including the gps was knocked out until our next port of Columbo and quite a while after that until we managed to get all the necessary spares shipped out
> ...


WOW Mike, somebody on that ship must have upset the big cheese upstairs .... [=P]


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## MikeK (Jul 3, 2007)

BobClay said:


> WOW Mike, somebody on that ship must have upset the big cheese upstairs .... [=P]


Could well be Bob, but he didn't know I was down below having breakfast !! (A)

Mike


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

This was left over from a ship refit of mine in 1992. Has been lying in my garage since then. None of the local hams seem interested in it.


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## Wismajorvik (Dec 29, 2011)

king ratt said:


> this was left over from a ship refit of mine in 1992. Has been lying in my garage since then. None of the local hams seem interested in it.


cadmium copper?


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## Davie M (Apr 17, 2009)

tom roberts said:


> Lowering the masts and etc when going up to Manchester at the berth just up the canal from Eastham locks I remember well,does anyone else recall this practice?.


As an apprentice remember assisting dropping aerials on Baron boats also lowering topmasts in the ship canal. I also remember going up the canal loaded with ore and churning up the bottom, one hellava stink.


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## Bill.B (Oct 19, 2013)

All the aerial wire we use here is phosphor bronze. Never used bulldog grips only ever used post office splices. Had a long argument with the Italian SRO on cruise ship Meridian when in Norfolk drydock. In the end I won and he got spliced aerials. About 6 years later met him again and he said the aerials were still going strong and he loved them. In early 90s got a call from cable ship Global Link to say her Comrod AS9, Christmas tree whip, had been hit by lightning alongside in Baltimore. Shipped a new one up and installed it. This was on Friday afternoon. Monday I got a phone call asking what was the warranty on the new whip? Saturday the new whip got hit and so we started all over again. I never did work out if it was better to earth or isolate those big whips when in bad weather. They were great for being omni directional but they attracted static like a bugger.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

R651400 said:


> More than likely to be hard drawn copper wire which is the only type I came across for aerials when at sea.


I think you have it right. I do notice a bit of green appearing on some of the strands.
The origin of this wire was from Marconi's Tyneside who were installing an Oceanlink transmitter during the Immingham refit of RFA Tidespring in Jan 1989. The Tx would not tune properly until yards of wire were removed from the main aerial. I inherited the cut off length.


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

King Ratt said:


> This was left over from a ship refit of mine in 1992. Has been lying in my garage since then. None of the local hams seem interested in it.


Brings back a few memories of obscure cupboards in the Radio Room filled with those coils. I always liked aerial jobs, good 'bronzy' work. :sweat:


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

BobClay said:


> Brings back a few memories of obscure cupboards in the Radio Room filled with those coils. I always liked aerial jobs, good 'bronzy' work. :sweat:


Like this,Bob.


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

Exactly ... (but pre-melanoma back then ... who knew ?) :sweat:


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

King Ratt said:


> This was left over from a ship refit of mine in 1992. Has been lying in my garage since then. None of the local hams seem interested in it.


Got anything else in your garage? Theremaybe gypsies tuning in to this site.

John T


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

#33 . I replaced a couple of those AS9 whips. There was a section which contained a load of little coils that turned out to be a bit fragile. They were hugely expensive. Hard work lowering the aerial too.

John T


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

trotterdotpom said:


> Got anything else in your garage? Theremaybe gypsies tuning in to this site.
> 
> John T


Not any more. Mrs T has destined all "junk" to the scrapyard.

73

KR


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

Well don't let her anywhere near my garage !!! ... it's full of priceless items !!!

(Well maybe not 'priceless' ..... but lots of stuff that might come in useful one day ... and all mine ... (EEK)(LOL) )


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

BobClay said:


> Well don't let her anywhere near my garage !!! ... it's full of priceless items !!!
> 
> (Well maybe not 'priceless' ..... but lots of stuff that might come in useful one day ... and all mine ... (EEK)(LOL) )


These are similar words to what I say,Bob. It made no difference. I will blindfold Mrs if we are ever down in Cornwall.

73

KR


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

trotterdotpom said:


> Weren't they all?


Yes, but it just goes to show how inefficient they were after a few years.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

trotterdotpom said:


> I remember lowering the aerials on a ship in drydock so that a crane could access the engine room skylight. Big mistake - all of a sudden the job that nobody wanted to do became a demarcation dispute with the Seamen's Union. Whoops. At least I did it by myself and didn't break any insulators. Did I mention this was an Australian ship?
> 
> John T


Interesting....I never had a problem with the boyos re lowering antennas. I always did it. Mind you, this was in the 80s after the big wire T antennas had gone.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Varley said:


> I, too, only used PO splices when wire aerials were involved.
> 
> (Possibly not if a granny knot of bulldogs had been inherited).


Ditto. I liked splicing. 

I banished bulldog grips from Australian GMDSS ships as well....


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Wismajorvik said:


> cadmium copper?


In the MIMCo parts nomenclature it was always referred to as phosphor-bronze wire: receiving antenna wire was 7/.029 and transmitting antenna wire was 7/.036 (if I remember it correctly).

And on reflection I now think that the 7/.036 was in fact 7/.040. Small difference, I know but it is better to be precise in these matters of great significance for the world!


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Ron Stringer said:


> In the MIMCo parts nomenclature it was always referred to as phosphor-bronze wire: receiving antenna wire was 7/.029 and transmitting antenna wire was 7/.036 (if I remember it correctly).


I have in mind they had a steel reinforcement strand or two. Is that right?


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Troppo said:


> Ditto. I liked splicing.
> 
> I banished bulldog grips from Australian GMDSS ships as well....


Power mad? 

John T

PS Are there still any Australian ships?


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Troppo said:


> Interesting....I never had a problem with the boyos re lowering antennas. I always did it. Mind you, this was in the 80s after the big wire T antennas had gone.


They didn't want to do it either - they waited until I'd done it before they started their whining.

John T


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Wasn't that because you were afraid of the bulldogs mating with kangaroos to produce skipping wires?


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

Was on one of Jebsen's "R" class of ships and the radio antenna was struck by lightning.
The bolt travelled down into the radio room and as the door was opened cannoned down the hallway and into the C/E's cabin.
Frightened the s**t out of us.
Sparky did not know that there was a storm coming and did not ground the aerial!!!!!


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

trotterdotpom said:


> Power mad?
> 
> John T
> 
> PS Are there still any Australian ships?


Heh - I wasn't afraid to make a decision. 

I think there are about 10 left...maybe.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

trotterdotpom said:


> They didn't want to do it either - they waited until I'd done it before they started their whining.
> 
> John T


Hahah! Why am I not surprised....

Interesting, I never had a problem with them re antennas on any of my ships.


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## expats (Mar 9, 2013)

King Ratt said:


> Not any more. Mrs T has destined all "junk" to the scrapyard.
> 
> 73
> 
> KR


Mrs.Expats tried the same thing whilst I was off playing golf..Sadly, for her, I came back when the big pile of 'junk' was still sitting in the drive...

After I'd rescued all the 'indispensable' stuff the pile was a lot smaller...


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

lakercapt said:


> Was on one of Jebsen's "R" class of ships and the radio antenna was struck by lightning.
> The bolt travelled down into the radio room and as the door was opened cannoned down the hallway and into the C/E's cabin.
> Frightened the s**t out of us.
> Sparky did not know that there was a storm coming and did not ground the aerial!!!!!


I didn't know that lightning waited for doors to be opened.

I always used the Red Sky at Night, Shepherd's Warning rule to see whether I should earth the aerial.

John T


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Troppo said:


> Hahah! Why am I not surprised....
> 
> Interesting, I never had a problem with them re antennas on any of my ships.


I never had a problem either, I never asked them for anything.

John T


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Varley said:


> I have in mind they had a steel reinforcement strand or two. Is that right?


Not in the stuff we supplied; my feeling is that it was much stronger than we needed in the later days of the MN, when long, suspended-wire antennas had become a rarity. 

OK when masts were 300' apart but by the tail-end of the 1980s, on many ships you were lucky to get 30' in which to rig an antenna and double and triple spans were common.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Thanks Ron. I would only have used MIMCO supplied materials for nearly all mu y time.


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## Wismajorvik (Dec 29, 2011)

Ron Stringer said:


> In the MIMCo parts nomenclature it was always referred to as phosphor-bronze wire: receiving antenna wire was 7/.029 and transmitting antenna wire was 7/.036 (if I remember it correctly).


The two antennas I replaced at sea were cadmium copper, (7/.044 ?)supplied from Woolwich and Singapore respectively. I recollect being told it does not stretch. Open wire feeders I have installed shore side were hard single strand drawn copper.


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## Naytikos (Oct 20, 2008)

The only problem I ever had on UK flag ships was when I did a relief trip on Montreal City and after the last port outbound from the Seaway, (November 1968) the crew refused to haul the main aerial back up because they were cold and wet and it was 3AM. I simply wrote it in the log, got the master to sign it and left it at that.

On a Greek bulk carrier the crew would come and ask permission to lower the aerial and before putting it back up. After that it was all tankers so no problem.

In common with others I enjoyed working on wire aerials and noticed the huge difference in performance when a new wire was put in service. Likewise replacing fibreglass insulators, which developed track marks along their length after a while. I also noticed a difference in final stage tuning when I replaced the rope halyards by wire; presumably the end capacitances were reduced.
I agree with the comments about P.O. splices as well.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Wismajorvik said:


> The two antennas I replaced at sea were cadmium copper, (7/.044 ?)supplied from Woolwich and Singapore respectively. I recollect being told it does not stretch. Open wire feeders I have installed shore side were hard single strand drawn copper.


You triggered something in the dusty vaults of my memory with that. Not concerning the material but the dimensions of the wire - it was not 7/.036" but 7/.040" wire. 

I don't know the significance of the small percentage of tin that was added to the copper to make phosphor-bronze (and I am not even sure of the derivation of the name - what has phosphor to do with it?) but a small amount of elasticity would surely not have been harmful aboard a ship working in a seaway. Had there been no stretch, the weak links would have been popping all the time, especially on those vessels where the down-hauls were wire rather than rope.


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## Wismajorvik (Dec 29, 2011)

Ron Stringer said:


> You triggered something in the dusty vaults of my memory with that. Not concerning the material but the dimensions of the wire - it was not 7/.036" but 7/.040" wire.
> 
> I don't know the significance of the small percentage of tin that was added to the copper to make phosphor-bronze (and I am not even sure of the derivation of the name - what has phosphor to do with it?) but a small amount of elasticity would surely not have been harmful aboard a ship working in a seaway. Had there been no stretch, the weak links would have been popping all the time, especially on those vessels where the down-hauls were wire rather than rope.


I believe copper wire only stretches once and doesn't spring back again... open for correction/info. 
The only steel strands mixed with copper that I have come across is the Signal's D10 field telephone cable. Horrible stuff once the steel rusts!


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

Not altogether sure that a steel strand in copper wire is chemically a good idea, but I'll admit my chemistry is a bit questionable.

Interesting though that we've all encountered wire aerial problems by the look of it, and have practices and experiences accordingly. The bulldog clip thing, I think I used bulldog clips once, when I had to repair a transmitting aerial that had come down in bad weather, but they were gone once I could get out on deck and up the ladder !! With the policy, hey ! ... my employer ... it's a bit of wire ... bear the cost ! 

I never once had a query about my my decision to replace them.

I always adopted the policy of: "If they work, they'll do (for now.)" But if they're 'questionable' in any way, then they're replaced the minute the weather picks up. 

Staying on the air was the most important aspect of the job.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Naytikos said:


> Likewise replacing fibreglass insulators, which developed track marks along their length after a while.


They were banned on Oz ships because they would eventually go short (or low R) due to absorbing moisture.

There was lots of hullabaloo over it. Originally instigated by an RO called John Wiseman. He was right, and the powers that be didn't like being proved wrong...

I have the original insulator that was used for the tests and the test reports. A little piece of history.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Hah! Wiseman ... A blast from the past.

John T


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## gwzm (Nov 7, 2005)

ISTR the standard on Brocklebank ships was 13/.064" phosphor bronze for TX aerials and 7/.064" for receive. Horrible stuff to work with and make tidy post office joints because it was very springy. Also had to be very careful not to get any kinks when it was unrolled for the first time. That said, it worked well. I only ever had one safety link fail and that was after a very rough north Atlantic crossing. The radio surveyor was on the dock waiting for us and he spotted it immediately.
Happy days. 
gwzm


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## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

When travelling up the Amazon river, and to avoid the downstream current we would steam close to the river bank. It was a regular occurance for trees to topple onto the aerials breaking the weak links and the aerials on each trip. On one radio survey in New York, the aerials were condemned, due to multiple splicing and bulldog grips. The main aerial was a twin span running forward. The surveyor insisted that an American wire be used, leaving the spare in the locker. The wire supplied,if I recall was 9 strands, but whatever, it was considerably heavier. When made and heaved up, it did look as if the forward mast yardarms were being drawn back, like a crossbow or so it seemed. 
The weak links had been beefed up as supplied by the FCC (surveyor).
We still had trees toppling onto the aerials, but they mainly survived..... not always. More attention was paid to the yardarms which were strengthened during the regular drydock every 3 months. We used to get bent propellers every trip due to those ruddy trees !!
But what an adventure.


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Just a few observations from an onlooker: 

Phosphor bronze is an alloy of Copper and Tin with a very low percentage of phosphor. 'Ordinary' bronze can contain other metals but not phosphor. The picture of aerial wire above looks, to me, like phosphor bronze rather than pure copper - I could be mistaken. 
I have come across it used in weight driven clocks where the advantages are lack of corrosion and lack of stretching in use. It is more like steel wire than copper wire to work with. 

Copper, and alloys 'work harden' and copper wire which has been drawn has a marginally higher specific gravity (it is denser) than copper sheet or cast copper. Once placed and tensioned the further hardening would probably mean that it would be unlikely to sag under its own weight, but would do so if subject to outside factors 

Copper plated steel wire is sometimes found in overhead telephone wires because it is less likely to stretch and sag further than the installed curve - and it's cheaper. That which I have encountered has generally been plastic sheathed. (I am not referring to incorporated catenary but actual self supporting wires.) 

Also; It is a long time ago but to the best of my memory: 
The old military field telephone wire, single core, contained multiple steel strands with a single copper strand. Jointing was done by tying the steel wires and using the copper strand as whipping over the free ends. 
The pattern F telephone could use either paired wires or an earth return so a single wire could be used. 

What is a Post Office splice? please...


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

Strangely I Googled that for a diagram rather than try and explain it. I couldn't get much until I used the word antenna instead of aerial .. (bloody colonials.) (LOL)

One site I came up with that has reasonable images was this:

http://vk6ysf.com/wire_antenna_splicing-3.htm


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

P.Arnold said:


> When travelling up the Amazon river, and to avoid the downstream current we would steam close to the river bank. It was a regular occurance for trees to topple onto the aerials breaking the weak links and the aerials on each trip. On one radio survey in New York, the aerials were condemned, due to multiple splicing and bulldog grips. The main aerial was a twin span running forward. The surveyor insisted that an American wire be used, leaving the spare in the locker. The wire supplied,if I recall was 9 strands, but whatever, it was considerably heavier. When made and heaved up, it did look as if the forward mast yardarms were being drawn back, like a crossbow or so it seemed.
> The weak links had been beefed up as supplied by the FCC (surveyor).
> We still had trees toppling onto the aerials, but they mainly survived..... not always. More attention was paid to the yardarms which were strengthened during the regular drydock every 3 months. We used to get bent propellers every trip due to those ruddy trees !!
> But what an adventure.


That reminds of when I did a couple of trips going back and forth along the Venezuelan coast on a product tanker. We often used to go a couple of hundred miles up the Orinoco River.

One time there were four or five of us bronzying on the monkey island, admiring the marvellous tropical scenery. Then I noticed what looked like two locust type insects seemingly bonking each other in mid-air. Purely out of scientific curiosity (cough) I stepped nearer to get a better look. It was then I realised this wasn’t two bugs, it was one colossal bug.

This thing had a distended multiple body, four engines, gun turrets and was GREEN to boot, I even suspect it had acid for blood !!! I shouted to the others about it and went down the ladder like a squirrel at full pelt, closely followed by equally terrified ruffy tuffy seafarers.

To this day I’m convinced it was some kind of alien species. 

(EEK)


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

BobClay said:


> Strangely I Googled that for a diagram rather than try and explain it. I couldn't get much until I used the word antenna instead of aerial .. (bloody colonials.) (LOL)
> 
> One site I came up with that has reasonable images was this:
> 
> http://vk6ysf.com/wire_antenna_splicing-3.htm


Thanks for that Bob. Makes perfect sense. The prep looks similar to splicing a braided cord, but after that.... 

Did you know that there is an Australian actress called Anne Tennay? 

Malcolm.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Anne Tenney got spliced on "A Country Practice" years ago.

John T


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

I suppose it could have been worse. Her name could have been Arial Wire. [=P]


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Or maybe Jay Beam. Everyone knew which direction she was heading. Her cousin was Di Pole.


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## Bill Greig (Jul 4, 2006)

And she liked to watch Yagi Bear on TV.


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

OH DEAR !!! .... MadLands... look what you've started ... ╣

[=P]


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## Bill Greig (Jul 4, 2006)

Yes, where will it "lead" to. OK enough.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Bill Greig said:


> Yes, where will it "lead" to. OK enough.


Possibly to a "cardioid"'arrest,Bill.


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

BobClay said:


> OH DEAR !!! .... MadLands... look what you've started ... ╣
> 
> [=P]


I could have mentioned her cousin - Theresa Green, but enough of this drift... (Smoke)


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Bill Greig said:


> And she liked to watch Yagi Bear on TV.


.... and The Weakest Link.

John T


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

(egg)


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

R651400 said:


> Was surprised to read on this thread that an emergency aerial required lowering which I assume was the same as the main aerial ie for cargo handling.
> Thought the regs circa late 1950's were it should be a permanent feature in the sense not attached to any mast or samson post?


No, it just had to meet the statutory minimum metre-amps requirement (when operated with the emergency transmitter tuned to 500kHz) and to be rigged so as not to be fouled if the main antenna and its down-lead came down. 

Just out of interest, apart from being availed of a ready supply of sky hooks, how would you recommend I should rig a suspended wire antenna without using masts or samson posts?


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## tunatownshipwreck (Nov 9, 2005)

Bill Greig said:


> And she liked to watch Yagi Bear on TV.


I liked the actor RF Burns.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

tunatownshipwreck said:


> I liked the actor RF Burns.


US actor Whip Hubley has nothing to gain from this thread.

John T


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## Wismajorvik (Dec 29, 2011)

During Rhodesia UDI the 'BBC' installed a 50kw at Francistown on about 900khz. I saw a report that at one time the insulators on the antenna were glowing red. I can only suppose that the insulators must have been damaged but I have never heard anything of this nature anywhere else. Has anyone encountered this at sea?


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## tunatownshipwreck (Nov 9, 2005)

trotterdotpom said:


> US actor Whip Hubley has nothing to gain from this thread.
> 
> John T


I'll give you a short wave for that.


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## Steven Lamb (Apr 18, 2009)

tom roberts said:


> Lowering the masts and etc when going up to Manchester at the berth just up the canal from Eastham locks I remember well,does anyone else recall this practice?.


Hi Tom
Yeah on the Manchester Courage outbound from Salford City to Montreal back in the 70's - happy days !
How u doing ?

Best Rgds
Lamby(Pint)


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

tunatownshipwreck said:


> I'll give you a short wave for that.


Thanks Tunatown. None of us are getting any younger, standing waves are be oming rare these days.

John T


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## lagerstedt (Oct 16, 2005)

Thanks for the replies. #85 the best, I'm like that most days. The open areial wire I used was hard drawn copper with sizes ranging from .5 mm to 1.2mm in dia with the larger sizes being copper clad steel. I did not think the thread would go this far. Many thanks for your replies.

Regards
Blair Lagerstedt
NZ


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## andysk (Jun 16, 2005)

I have just found this thread, the aerials were always brought down/put up by the deck crowd after consultation with me and the C/O.

#37 - see the attached pic. It's just as sunny as yours, but only just above freezing in Rotterdam in December 1974 ! And I did have a tad more platform space than you !

Just thought of something else, I used a mercurial ointment to grease all the shackles on a tanker, when I went back a year later the R/O I relieved confessed the aerials had never been down for inspection, and he'd never been above the the bridge as he didn't like heights. When they were dropped in drydock a few weeks later, none of the shackle pins had corroded and siezed, every one came free nice and easily. Mercurial ointment was out of date and had come from the Purser, and was used to treat crabs !

Happy Days !


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## tunatownshipwreck (Nov 9, 2005)

andysk said:


> I have just found this thread, the aerials were always brought down/put up by the deck crowd after consultation with me and the C/O.
> 
> #37 - see the attached pic. It's just as sunny as yours, but only just above freezing in Rotterdam in December 1974 ! And I did have a tad more platform space than you !
> 
> ...


Perhaps I sound silly, but I bet no crabs up there,either.


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## andysk (Jun 16, 2005)

tunatownshipwreck said:


> Perhaps I sound silly, but I bet no crabs up there,either.


Only in heavy weather, but I wasn't out fishing then !


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

andysk said:


> ....Just thought of something else, I used a mercurial ointment to grease all the shackles on a tanker, when I went back a year later the R/O I relieved confessed the aerials had never been down for inspection, and he'd never been above the the bridge as he didn't like heights. When they were dropped in drydock a few weeks later, none of the shackle pins had corroded and siezed, every one came free nice and easily. Mercurial ointment was out of date and had come from the Purser, and was used to treat crabs !
> 
> Happy Days !


Think that Mercurial Ointment was blue and the same colour as RAF uniforms - that's why the navy called the airforce "crabfats".

I always dunked a shackle pin into Vaseline before screwing it up and it had the same effect. Before anyone asks why I had Vaseline, I think "petroleum jelly" was part of the stores requirements.

John T


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

trotterdotpom said:


> Think that Mercurial Ointment was blue and the same colour as RAF uniforms - that's why the navy called the airforce "crabfats".
> 
> I always dunked a shackle pin into Vaseline before screwing it up and it had the same effect. Before anyone asks why I had Vaseline, I think "petroleum jelly" was part of the stores requirements.
> 
> John T



Yeah right !! .... we believe ya .... [=P]


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## expats (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm reminded of 'toilet Shakespears'..

"While you stand here and shake your peg the crabs are crawling up your leg;
And don't try standing on the seat, the crabs in here can jump six feet.
Don't go next door (and this is why) because in there the beggars fly..."


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## Davie M (Apr 17, 2009)

Mad Landsman said:


> Just a few observations from an onlooker:
> 
> Phosphor bronze is an alloy of Copper and Tin with a very low percentage of phosphor. 'Ordinary' bronze can contain other metals but not phosphor. The picture of aerial wire above looks, to me, like phosphor bronze rather than pure copper - I could be mistaken.
> I have come across it used in weight driven clocks where the advantages are lack of corrosion and lack of stretching in use. It is more like steel wire than copper wire to work with.
> ...


Hi, Am working from a point a long time ago so bear with me.
Post Office splice. Overhead open copper was not spliced,where a joint needed to be made both ends would be terminated on an insulator and the wire ends inserted into a copper sleeve. The sleeve was twisted to provide a secure joint, or the wires soldered together.
The wire size dictated the method used.
The only other splice I can remember was a splice to terminate a stay wire on a pole etc. I think the wire used was 5strand galvanised steel.
A thimble was attached to where the splice was to take place and the stay wire turned round the thimble similar to making a "seagoing"
splice. Instead of opening up the lay of the standing part and passing the ends through as in a "seagoing" splice each end was taken and in sequence wrapped round both the standing part and the other ends until all were used up and a tapered splice was made.
Davie


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Davie M said:


> Hi, Am working from a point a long time ago so bear with me.
> Post Office splice. Overhead open copper was not spliced,where a joint needed to be made both ends would be terminated on an insulator and the wire ends inserted into a copper sleeve. The sleeve was twisted to provide a secure joint, or the wires soldered together.
> The wire size dictated the method used.
> The only other splice I can remember was a splice to terminate a stay wire on a pole etc. I think the wire used was 5strand galvanised steel.
> ...


Davie,
Thanks for taking the trouble to reply - I have come across the malleable copper sleeves in the past but nowadays I think crimp-on terminations are common. 

The 'Post Office Splice' in the context of this thread was answered by BobClay at #72 - for multi strand copper it looks quite good. 

I have noticed the splice on stay wires - Often wondered, now I know. Thanks. 

Malcolm.


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## Farmer John (Feb 22, 2012)

Mad Landsman said:


> Once placed and tensioned the further hardening would probably mean that it would be unlikely to sag under its own weight, but would do so if subject to outside factors


There is no force however great
Can stretch a string however fine
Into a horizontal line
That shall be accurately straight. 

I did think there was a slightly better version of this, but I can't find it.


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Farmer John said:


> There is no force however great
> Can stretch a string however fine
> Into a horizontal line
> That shall be accurately straight.
> ...


Quite true - I _should_ have said ....would be unlikely to sag *any further* under its own weight.... 

In the next line I did refer to the 'installed curve'. (Wave)


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## tunatownshipwreck (Nov 9, 2005)

trotterdotpom said:


> Before anyone asks why I had Vaseline, I think "petroleum jelly" was part of the stores requirements.
> 
> John T


I think a galley or two used it, too.


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## Farmer John (Feb 22, 2012)

M L, sorry, the thing just leapt into my mind and like a silly devil I had to slap it down.

Vaseline/ petroleum jelly can be smeared round the rim of a large plastic box to prevent spiders from getting out too easily. Some of us have to.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Well you're, neither of, you wide of the mark. Petroleum jelly is carried so one may protect ones staff spiders from lead poisoning when clambering upon exposed battery terminals and interconnectors. Well remembered, chaps!


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## richardwakeley (Jan 4, 2010)

Varley is, again, right. Petroleum Jelly (aka Vaseline) was in the standard radio stores for the battery terminals. I think that Australian ships used Vegemite, Trots can confirm this.

Only yesterday I actually rigged an MF/HF antenna wire. Not exactly a triatic stay. I am ashamed to say I used wire clips. The ship owner would not have been happy for me to spend all afternoon doing PO splices, which I always did when I was an R/O in the dim distant past.
Photo is attached. Warning to Troppo - please don't look at the photo if you have hypertension, I don't want to be responsible if you suffer an apoplexy.

Richard


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Actually not bad, as the bulldog grips are not used for an electrical connection, only mechanical support.

B\)


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## Farmer John (Feb 22, 2012)

Looking back to my Grandfathers "Wireless Weekly" bound volumes for help with understanding aerials, where do you bury the Bath-tub full of coke to give a good earth? I think I have got this right.


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

An iron bedstead was a good enough Earth for my crystal set. ... We couldn't afford a bath !! .... let alone coke !!

(And before you kick and scream and shout 'LUXURY,' we found the iron bedstead in the canal !!)

[=P]


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

My crystal set earth was also an old iron bedstead - the same one that I slept on!(Night)


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## Farmer John (Feb 22, 2012)

Ah! So I am on the right lines. Those early magazines were so interesting, I wish I had a volume or two still. The most interesting thing, in many ways, was that they new they had something amazing, but they didn't really know what to do with it.


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

It's an interesting subject. I remember being a fan of 'Practical Wireless' and 'Wireless World' (a magazine from which I found a good job after sea-going went down the tubes.)

I remember reading that Arthur C. Clarke wrote an article for Wireless World in the 1940's suggesting the use of geo-stationary satellites to provide worldwide communication. Considered science fiction at the time, which of course, is an area he subsequently moved into.

Those mags were always good reading.


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## 5TT (May 3, 2008)

> I remember being a fan of 'Practical Wireless'


I too was a big fan of PW. Mine used to be delivered with the morning newspaper by the local newsagent and I'd waiting for it to fall through the letter box giving me enough time to scan through it cover to cover before school. I've still got most of them and in fact I only stopped the subscription when I went sea.

= Adrian +


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## Day Sailor (Nov 9, 2014)

david.hopcroft said:


> I once showed the Bosun and his men how to make a post office splice instead of bulldog grips. They were impressed, but doubt they continued the time consuming process. That was on the MF only Marchon Trader/GWTQ in Whitehaven.
> 
> David
> +


I feel this is something I need to know how to do, can you point me in the general direction of a 'how to'?


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Day Sailor said:


> I feel this is something I need to know how to do, can you point me in the general direction of a 'how to'?


I already asked earlier in the thread and Bob Clay kindly found this: 

http://vk6ysf.com/wire_antenna_splicing-3.htm


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## Day Sailor (Nov 9, 2014)

Thanks, I missed the link earlier. Will practice as soon as I can. I think I have only got stainless rigging wire in the shed. A bit tuff to learn with.


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

DS,
Locate an old Lecky and ask him if he has some old 7/.029 or even 7/.044 in his shed - It's only any use for scrap nowadays. 
Copper is much much easier to practice with - It stays where you put it.


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

Thanks for finding the splice Bob. I could not begin to think how I would describe the process. !! The last time I tried it was rigging a copper aerial for a Skanti at the Lincoln Showground on a BT services publicity stand. The only problem was finding a decent earth in a field.

David
+


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

I also found difficulty when I thought I might try to explain it. One of those occasions I think when a picture really is worth 1000 words. :sweat:


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## Steven Lamb (Apr 18, 2009)

Looking back - ever thankful to the Bosuns / deck crews for their help when the main wire aerial needed lowering and hoisting. Made a point of being present come day or night for peace of mind - besides it was part of your gear responsibility and as such the cold beer could wait in the fridge until mission accomplished 

cheers
Lamby


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## andysk (Jun 16, 2005)

Day Sailor said:


> Thanks, I missed the link earlier. Will practice as soon as I can. I think I have only got stainless rigging wire in the shed. A bit tuff to learn with.


Also see : http://vk6ysf.com/wire_antenna_splicing-2.htm for terminating on an eye, done a few of them in my time !


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

andysk said:


> Also see : http://vk6ysf.com/wire_antenna_splicing-2.htm for terminating on an eye, done a few of them in my time !


Very nice.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

andysk said:


> Also see : http://vk6ysf.com/wire_antenna_splicing-2.htm for terminating on an eye, done a few of them in my time !


Oh, that guy is so wasteful! 

I never cropped the ends off but instead used the pliers (in the Radio Room tools and spares provided by Marconi to meet the UK Radio Rules ) to squeeze the free ends into place, so that nothing protruded to catch on skin, clothing or flags.


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

andysk said:


> Also see : http://vk6ysf.com/wire_antenna_splicing-2.htm for terminating on an eye, done a few of them in my time !


(Thumb)


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## Day Sailor (Nov 9, 2014)

Just a thought, should the PO splice be called the BT splice nowadays


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

Day Sailor said:


> Just a thought, should the PO splice be called the BT splice nowadays



Absolutely not in my opinion. :sweat:


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

I remember doing one at anchor waiting at HZY in the summer months. I put the pliers down on deck for a moment but burnt my fingers a couple of minutes later when I picked them up !! 

You can just see the aerial in this underway photo.

David
+


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## 7912bob (Jun 4, 2010)

you could get a good few bottles of Bacardi in laspalmas for your old between mast aerials. I suspect a number of good aerials were replaced there


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## 5TT (May 3, 2008)

> you could get a good few bottles of Bacardi in laspalmas for your old between mast aerials


I was at Las Palmas for an overnight bunker stop on one occasion and shortly after arriving alongside I was approached by a "business man" asking if I had any copper available. I replied that I did not whereupon he gazed up at the antenna wires. I warned the lad that I'd be keeping a close eye on the antennas and I asked the chief officer to make it known that there was some unwanted shore-side interest in them. I didn't have any more trouble however on sailing it was discovered that every litre of deck paint we had was missing, and there were tell tale rope marks on the railings probably caused when the drums were lowered over the side to a waiting boat. Apparently it was a lot of paint and it was concluded that our own crew must have been involved in order to move such a large quantity without being observed, unless the deck guys were too busy keeping an eye on my antennas to notice?

= Adrian +


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## Binnacle (Jul 22, 2005)

We were rather amused when our elderly "sparks" explained that he "wasn't covered by insurance" when he requested a sailor to go up aloft and clear a fouled antenna. We certainly didn't expect him to, and would have been very worried if he had.


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