# Steam / diesel Engine



## Paedrig (Jan 7, 2006)

I've come across a reference to a steam asissted diesel engine, in a book by Capt. R F McBrearty. He makes a passing comment that not too many were made as the design evidently had some drawbacks. Since the book is about his seafaring days in the 30s I assume that this hybrid engine was designed at that time or could it have been earlier? Can anyone enlighten me further?


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## R736476 (Jul 2, 2005)

Paedrig,
My inherited 8th Edition of Macgibbon's Marine Engineering, now very tattered, dating from 1920s/30s describes "the Scott-Still engine as a combination internal combustion and steam engine; diesel cycle on top of the piston and steam on the bottom of the piston."
"The steam side is used to get the engine under way in place of compressed air, so doing away with large air reservoirs which are needed in the usual diesel engine".
"The steam used for starting purposes is raised in a set of boilers by using oil fuel burners to start up with, but as soon as the diesel part of the cycle is in operation, the waste gases are sent to the boiler to raise steam ..."
" The saving in fuel has been shown to be considerable. The heat efficiency in the M.V. Dolius is given as 40%, as compared with the usual 34% claimed by diesel engines."
There are diagrams of the engine in Macgibbons.
Don't know how many were ever built and never met anybody who sailed on one!! Don't know who owned M.V. Dolius. No doubt they were a real workhouse!!

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Alex


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Hi Paedrig,

Google hasn't been much help on this one - I spent half an hour or so but came up mostly with rubbish! 

Not sure if it is relevant to what you are looking for but there is a reference to steam-assisted diesel engines at this URL: http://people.wartsila.com/pdf/mn1-00.pdf

Hopefully someone else will be able to help.

Regards,

Brian


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## Paedrig (Jan 7, 2006)

Thankyou, that was most interesting. I've just gone back to his short reference to check the background again and all he states is that the vessel was owned by a "liner company with a fine reputation" and it was a run job from Birkenhead to London. He does add that he thought only three of this type of engine were ever built.
I now consider myself enlightened
Cheers 
Pat


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## Bruce Carson (Jun 14, 2005)

Hi:
There were two ships equipped with this type engine.
A good rundown on the engine may be found here:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/still/still.htm

Bruce C.


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## Paedrig (Jan 7, 2006)

Bruce Carson said:


> Hi:
> There were two ships equipped with this type engine.
> A good rundown on the engine may be found here:
> 
> ...


I'm overwhelmed with imformation. Thankyou
Just as an aside, not a research project, I wonder if the William Still referred to is related to W.Still who used to produce Galley water heaters and a steam heated bain-marie.

Thanks for your efforts too Brian, my typing is a bit slow.


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

*Diesel / Bauer-Wach Turbine Hybrid.*

I understand there were a number of these hybrids using a Diesel- Main Engine and a Bauer- Wach low pressure stem turbine .
An exhaust gas boiler was use to generated low pressure steam by recovering the heat from the Diesel main engine exhast gases ; this was then supplied to the Bauer - Wach turbine which was connected directly to the main line shafting through a gear box with Vulcan Hydraulic clutch .
The Bauer -Wach turbine was initially designed and used with a Triple or Quadrupal expansion steam engine ; using the exhaust steam and so gaining more efficiency before being condensed and recycled .
Derek


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## japottinger (Jun 16, 2004)

*Scott-Still engine*

Dolius was owned by Alfred Holt, their Eurybates had same type of engine, but was converted to full diesel in the mid 1950's
The Scotts-Still was thermodynamically very efficient, but mantenance was heavy, hence conversion.


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## japottinger (Jun 16, 2004)

*Bauer Wach*

Never heard of that arrangement Derek, I sailed on Umgeni which was twin screw triple expansion, with steam exhausting from the Lp cylinder to the exhaust turbine, which was connected to the prop. shaft voa a Vulcan hydraulic clutch. As far as I know all the Baur Wach's operated on this principle


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

*Exhaust turbine*

Looking with interest at "weird" steam plants.I was 2E in the 60's on the s.s. Monita. Swedish built, engined on the "Gotaverken System".Steam recip.Quadruple expansion. The interesting bit was that there was an exhaust turbine connected to the main shaft via hydraulic clutch and roller chain drive.This turbine was also direct coupled to a rotary seven stage compressor which drew steam from the 1st. I.P. cylinder, compressed it and delivred it to the 2nd. I.P.cylinder, hence both I.P. cylinders were the same diameter! She aslo sported 4 stage feed water heating. All this on a coalburner of about 1500 tons! Does anybody know the history of this ship. Monita was her original name. Apparentl it was a stipulation of sale that it was not to be changed. She also had an oil portrait of King Haakon in the saloon.


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## Bruce Carson (Jun 14, 2005)

Hi Jock Paul:
There's a photo of her at the following site.
I'm guessing that "Upphuggen" translates as broken up.

http://kommandobryggan.se/last/monita.htm

Bruce C.


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## Paedrig (Jan 7, 2006)

jock paul said:


> Looking with interest at "weird" steam plants.I was 2E in the 60's on the s.s. Monita. Swedish built, engined on the "Gotaverken System".Steam recip.Quadruple expansion. The interesting bit was that there was an exhaust turbine connected to the main shaft via hydraulic clutch and roller chain drive.This turbine was also direct coupled to a rotary seven stage compressor which drew steam from the 1st. I.P. cylinder, compressed it and delivred it to the 2nd. I.P.cylinder, hence both I.P. cylinders were the same diameter! She aslo sported 4 stage feed water heating. All this on a coalburner of about 1500 tons! Does anybody know the history of this ship. Monita was her original name. Apparentl it was a stipulation of sale that it was not to be changed. She also had an oil portrait of King Haakon in the saloon.


A bit "different" that system! I wonder what sort of fuel efficiency it gave.


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

Hi Paedrig,thanks for reply, coal cosumption, it depended on the coal! We averaged out about 7 tons a day at about 11 knots. This wa actually very good considering the usual quality of the coal. We had 2 firemen plus 1 trimmer per watch and they were working flat out! I still have memories/nightmares? of putting tube stoppers in boilers under steam at sea!
jock.


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## lgm (May 15, 2010)

jock paul said:


> Looking with interest at "weird" steam plants.I was 2E in the 60's on the s.s. Monita. Swedish built, engined on the "Gotaverken System".Steam recip.Quadruple expansion. The interesting bit was that there was an exhaust turbine connected to the main shaft via hydraulic clutch and roller chain drive.This turbine was also direct coupled to a rotary seven stage compressor which drew steam from the 1st. I.P. cylinder, compressed it and delivred it to the 2nd. I.P.cylinder, hence both I.P. cylinders were the same diameter! She aslo sported 4 stage feed water heating. All this on a coalburner of about 1500 tons! Does anybody know the history of this ship. Monita was her original name. Apparentl it was a stipulation of sale that it was not to be changed. She also had an oil portrait of King Haakon in the saloon.


There is another link with a bit more info. http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/monita_1945.htm
Are you sure it was King Haakon's portait? He was the Norwegian king.
The Swedish King would have been King Gustavius V .
I worked on the the next ss Monita it had a double compound engine with the same type of turbine as you described. It was sold 1972 to the Greeks.
/lgm


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## Clifford Cocker (Jan 21, 2008)

*Marine Engineering Knowledge*

Having studied for my Second's Ticket in the 50s, MacGibbons Book was the "Holy Writ" at the time, apart from the Scott Still it also included a horrifying set of drawings of the Cammel Laird Fullagar engine, opposed piston with diagonal side rods driving the upper piston in the adjoining cylinder, I don't think many were built but I did hear that some were in Gibraltar as stationary generator engines. Any additions to this trip back in the darkest corners of my 87 year old memories?
Cliff Cocker


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

Clifford Cocker said:


> Having studied for my Second's Ticket in the 50s, MacGibbons Book was the "Holy Writ" at the time, apart from the Scott Still it also included a horrifying set of drawings of the Cammel Laird Fullagar engine, opposed piston with diagonal side rods driving the upper piston in the adjoining cylinder, I don't think many were built but I did hear that some were in Gibraltar as stationary generator engines. Any additions to this trip back in the darkest corners of my 87 year old memories?
> Cliff Cocker


I think most Fullagar engines were stationary,because they were always being repaired(Jester)


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

The advantage of the Cammel Laird Fullager engine was that it was lighter than other Diesel Engines and did not take up as much space which was attractive to the Shipowner, a Sulzer two stroke 4 cy weighed in at 168 tons whereas the CLF weighed in at 112 tons. The length of the Sulzer was 31ft 6inch and the two stroke 4 cy CLF 21ft 6inch.


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## berbex (Feb 17, 2013)

Clifford C : go to this thread for info on fullagars and drwgs.

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=32644&page=7

regards 

cr


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## loco (Dec 10, 2010)

There was a railway locomotive built which used this principle of steam starting and then running as a diesel (in the 1930s?-will have to check); built by Kitson's, it was known as the Kitson-Still. it was trialled on the (British) London and North Eastern Railway (LNER).
I don't have the reference book easily to hand, but I think that problems with the system, and Kitsons' determination to get it to succeed, contributed to the financial collapse of Kitsons.
As an aside, there were also a number of experimental locos fitted with steam turbines instead of reciprocating cylinders; I don't think that any were a great success, mainly due, I think, to mechanical problems with the transmission of power from turbine to the loco wheels.
Update;
Just googled the Kitson-Still; built 1926, returned to makers 1934. Seemingly successful, but the price differential between coal and oil made it uneconomic compared to a conventional steam locomotive.
Martyn


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

loco said:


> There was a railway locomotive built which used this principle of steam starting and then running as a diesel (in the 1930s?-will have to check); built by Kitson's, it was known as the Kitson-Still. it was trialled on the (British) London and North Eastern Railway (LNER).
> I don't have the reference book easily to hand, but I think that problems with the system, and Kitsons' determination to get it to succeed, contributed to the financial collapse of Kitsons.
> As an aside, there were also a number of experimental locos fitted with steam turbines instead of reciprocating cylinders; I don't think that any were a great success, mainly due, I think, to mechanical problems with the transmission of power from turbine to the loco wheels.
> Update;
> ...


Didn't know about the Locomotive version but one of the perceived advantages of the marine engine version was that it used the same oil to fire the Boilers as it did to run the diesel side.


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## loco (Dec 10, 2010)

Chadburn;

the loco also used the same liquid fuel used in the diesel to fire the boiler from cold. When the diesel engine was running, waste exhaust heat was used for generating steam in the boiler.

It was reliable enough to be placed in regular service as part of the trials.

I think the cost issue was that overall, compared to a conventional coal-fired steam loco, the cost of the liquid fuel (plus maintenance?) gave higher running costs. There is more information via Google.

Martyn


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

A number of engine manufacturers took out licences for the Still engine. These included Scott’s of Greenock, Peter Brotherhood Ltd. of Peterborough, Kitson &Co Ltd of Leeds, Dujardin & Co of Lille and Plenty & Son, Newbury. 
Excerpt from "Marine Diesels in Newbury" by Peter Humphreys 
"It appears that an experimental Plenty-Still type engine had been built in the King's Road factory around 1925/6, and the first and only commercial engine of this type to be built in Newbury was delivered in January 1928 - and so was presumably actually built in the Cheap Street factory. This was a three cylinder version installed in the drift net fishing vessel 'Larus' built at Selby for Alexander Fishing of Lowestoft. cylinder bore was 280 mm, stroke 355 mm, and the engine developed 210 
horsepower at 300 rpm. It was envisaged that steam operation would he utilised for starting, manoeuvring and for very low speed operation whilst fishing and the combined steam diesel cycles for passage to and from the fishing grounds. 
The diesel cycle of the engine employed a reciprocating pump of 425 mm bore and 355 mm stroke for the provision of scavenge and combustion air, with fuel directly injected through nozzles in the cylinder heads. 
Steam was raised in a coal fired Cochrane vertical flue tube boiler modified with additional tubes through which the diesel exhaust pasted. Steam admission to and release from the bottom of the 
cylinder to operate on the underside of thee pistons was controlled by poppet valves operated by three sets of cams - for starting, ahead and astern and to provide cut off for normal ahead running - controlled by an elaborate system of gears, detents, and an eccentric shaft to lift the rockers clear. Works tests indicated a fuel consumption of 0.378 lbs per bhp per hour. 
The vessel went into service early in 1928 and initially, whilst the Newbury guarantee engineer was on board, operated reasonably well. However after he left, the performance of the engines gradually deteriorated ending with the vessel having to he towed into port. It appears that the owners felt that enough was enough and no real effort was made to investigate or correct the problems, so that the engine was removed from the vessel and returned to the King's Road works where it remained for several years. 
Ref http://rowifi.com/ndc/files/book_complete.pdf


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

loco said:


> Chadburn;
> 
> the loco also used the same liquid fuel used in the diesel to fire the boiler from cold. When the diesel engine was running, waste exhaust heat was used for generating steam in the boiler.
> 
> ...


The same system in regards to the Diesel engine exhaust passing through the same boiler was as you are most probably aware the same on the marine version as the Engineroom auxiliaries were Steam powered.
Regards,
Chad.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

eddyw said:


> A number of engine manufacturers took out licences for the Still engine. These included Scott’s of Greenock, Peter Brotherhood Ltd. of Peterborough, Kitson &Co Ltd of Leeds, Dujardin & Co of Lille and Plenty & Son, Newbury.
> Excerpt from "Marine Diesels in Newbury" by Peter Humphreys
> "It appears that an experimental Plenty-Still type engine had been built in the King's Road factory around 1925/6, and the first and only commercial engine of this type to be built in Newbury was delivered in January 1928 - and so was presumably actually built in the Cheap Street factory. This was a three cylinder version installed in the drift net fishing vessel 'Larus' built at Selby for Alexander Fishing of Lowestoft. cylinder bore was 280 mm, stroke 355 mm, and the engine developed 210
> horsepower at 300 rpm. It was envisaged that steam operation would he utilised for starting, manoeuvring and for very low speed operation whilst fishing and the combined steam diesel cycles for passage to and from the fishing grounds.
> ...


Thanks for the above, interesting info.


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## Duncan112 (Dec 28, 2006)

Slightly off topic - I remember sailing on one of the early RT Engines with a power recovery turbine geared to the shaft alternator - there was an IHI brochure on board suggesting that the next stage would be a steam turbine from the waste heat geared into the whole shooting match and possibly supplying power to the shaft if the electrical load was low - I can't find a copy on the web - but came across this http://www.gallois.be/ggmagazine_2005/gg_01_01_2005_4.pdf

The Sankey diagrams are very interesting.


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## Victor J. Croasdale (Nov 28, 2016)

chadburn said:


> Didn't know about the Locomotive version but one of the perceived advantages of the marine engine version was that it used the same oil to fire the Boilers as it did to run the diesel side.





chadburn said:


> Didn't know about the Locomotive version but one of the perceived advantages of the marine engine version was that it used the same oil to fire the Boilers as it did to run the diesel side.


Picture of the Kitson-Still.
Notice the jack shaft between the first and second powered axles. To start,







it ran as a steam engine then at about 5 mph fuel was put on the Diesel side.








The book "Prototype Locomotives" by Robert Tufnell has a chapter on the Kitson-Still
It gets a mention and a different photo in "British Steam Locomotive Builders" by Jame W. Lowe C.Eng; F.I. Mech. E.


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