# Titanic Lifeboat question



## bpread

Hi All:
I am a Titanic researcher. I have a specific question about a structural element of the 30 ft. main lifeboats. My question is regarding the two objects in the photo below. They are found inboard bow and stern on opposite sides. In the photo we see a pair of objects oriented at right angles to each other. There is a round opening through these objects.
In the photo we see the pair of objects on the starboard bow. There is another pair on the port stern. My specific questions are:
1. What were these objects called.
2. What were their function.
Thanks in advance for any help. I've been all over the web researching this. There have been a lot of ideas but nobody has said unequivocally what they are.
Regards,
Bob Read


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## chadburn

Possibly to mount a rollock for a steering oar?


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## bpread

Hi Chadburn:
These boats had a dedicated oar lock and socket atop the gunwale for use with the steering oar.
Regards,
Bob Read


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## cueball44

Could be something to do with securing the mast stays.


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## James_C

cueball44 said:


> Could be something to do with securing the mast stays.


My thinking too, or perhaps the sheets for the fore and aft sails.


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## bpread

Hi guys
The two shrouds were lashed through thole pin sockets in the gunwale. This boat used a dipping lug rig. That these structures may have been used in conjunction with the sheets has been considered a possibility. It has not been ruled out. That's why I have been trying to find someone who could unequivocally identify them.
Regards
Bob Read


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## steamer659

I would say that they are part of the securing arrangement- retrieval/securing padeyes...


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## R58484956

Greetings* bpread *and welcome to *SN*. Bon voyage.


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## Stephen J. Card

Bob, Titanic is a nuisance!

Before looking at your photo of No 13 boat in your photo I looked at very ligh res photo taken in the water at New York. All of the details.

Re the two pieces in question... they are in some boats on the starboard boat and in a few places they are on the port side aft end. In otherwise... sem to be random.

The boats are 'double ended', but they have just one way to show when is the bow and stern.... if you can see the clamp on the thwart where the mast is stepped.

Note that on some boats you can see a single crutch in the bow OR seen on the stern. Just for used steering with an oar. Note... the boats are fitted with a rudder and tiller, but with a steering oar you can steered from EITHER end.

Note also... for rowing these boats have Thole Pins.... not for Crutches.

Note quite clear to find the shroud plates to show where the mast stays are attached... but usually to either sides of the thwart is clamped.

A lot of details vary from boat to boat.... where knees fit at the thwarts.... some right on the side timbers... some are not.

At some places the thole hole plate is middle on the gunwale... in some the position is out of center. 

A lot of details vary!

Meanwhile.... the drawing here from a Naval boat. It shows a TOE PIECE. Clearly shows where the shank of the CRUTCH will sit into the TOE PIECE. Problem is that there are no Crutch in position like on Titanic boats!

One possibility..... the wooden piece... in horizontal is a way to stow the crutch if not needed. Close by, but better than just left sitting on the 'DICKY. (check Admiralty Manual of Seamanship Vo. 1 - 1964)

The other vertical piece you are looking foward... just there so you can a tie a lanyard for the crutch stowed in the other piece!!!!

Mentioned in a few others on comments for sails.... there are cleats in several places around the boat... just not shown in these photos... or also mentioned... the Thole Pins could be used for that purpose.

Also worth mentioning... just because a designed fitted boat is from Belfast does not that boats from the Clyde will have identical fittings.

Stephen

PS Have you ever check this with Ken Marschall? If not I'll pass this on to him.


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## bpread

Stephen:
Ken Marschall rarely gives answers to questions like this. Anyway, I don't have a direct e-mail for him.

Regards,
Bob Read


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## Stephen J. Card

bpread said:


> Stephen:
> Ken Marschall rarely gives answers to questions like this. Anyway, I don't have a direct e-mail for him.
> 
> Regards,
> Bob Read



Bob,

No problem. I'll check. 

But for maritime question such like yours... if you can't get info on Ships Nostalgia you won't get it anywhere else! ;-)

Stephen


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## bpread

After doing a considerable number of searches and reading, I have developed a theory about what those objects are and what their function was. Actually the theory is fairly simple. First I believe the objects were wooden eyes. The only place a regular metal eye could be used to take any kind of strain was the eyes in the stem and sternpost for the painter. Those metal eyes were secured to thick pieces of timber sufficient to bear strain. If an eye is needed on the interior of the planking there has to be some method to dissipate stress. A metal eye which has a small area in which it is fastened would concentrate stress on a small area. The wooden eyes seen are much larger but could spread stress over a much larger area. Since we don’t see exterior bolts like with those used for securing the thwarts, I believe that they were fastened like the planking with copper nails clenched over rooves which were in essence like a copper rivet. Another way to dissipate stress is to position the eyes so that they work in tandem and all the force is not in one direction. That is why I believe the wooden eyes were at right angles to each other. I doubt that someone came up with this configuration on the first try. I imagine it was a bit of trial and error where one eye was found to be too weak.
I believe the purpose of the eyes was most probably to serve as a belaying point for frapping lines. The primary purpose of frapping lines was to connect near the bow and stern and to steady the boat to prevent rocking athwartship in rough weather conditions. Another use has been to pull the boat up against the embarkation deck for passenger loading. One of the reasons that these eyes and the associated frapping lines have been a mystery is probably because of their lack of use. It was a rare occurrence for lifeboats to be launched under duress in a maritime setting at the time of Titanic. In the case of Titanic disaster, the sea was described as a “mill pond” in that it was so calm. I doubt that frapping lines were even rigged. Their secondary use to pull the boat up against the embarkation deck would probably not have been necessary either. If the boat was swung out and lowered for loading, the davit could be rotated slightly inboard and the boat would come back in contact with the ship and remain there by gravity. The main concern during the launch of Titanic’s boats was keeping them level fore and aft. The center of gravity was also well below the disengaging gear so the boat was naturally stable when in the falls.
If conditions were rough then the frapping lines could be belayed through both of the eyes on both the fore and aft ends of the ship. It would only take two men to man the lines to keep the boat from rocking athwartship. This steadying pull by the frapping lines would not put undue strain on the eyes as would be the case in the theory where they would be used in lowering the boat from within the boat.
So my theory in a nutshell is that these structures are “frapping eyes” which acted as a belaying point for the frapping lines. I realize it is a theory until someone with a lot of knowledge identifies unequivocally but I believe it has fewer holes in it than a lot of other theories I’ve heard.

Regards,
Bob Read


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## Stephen J. Card

QUOTE=bpread;1028618]After doing a considerable number of searches and reading, I have developed a theory about what those objects are and what their function was. Actually the theory is fairly simple. First I believe the objects were wooden eyes. The only place a regular metal eye could be used to take any kind of strain was the eyes in the stem and sternpost for the painter. Those metal eyes were secured to thick pieces of timber sufficient to bear strain. If an eye is needed on the interior of the planking there has to be some method to dissipate stress. A metal eye which has a small area in which it is fastened would concentrate stress on a small area. The wooden eyes seen are much larger but could spread stress over a much larger area. Since we don’t see exterior bolts like with those used for securing the thwarts, I believe that they were fastened like the planking with copper nails clenched over rooves which were in essence like a copper rivet. Another way to dissipate stress is to position the eyes so that they work in tandem and all the force is not in one direction. That is why I believe the wooden eyes were at right angles to each other. I doubt that someone came up with this configuration on the first try. I imagine it was a bit of trial and error where one eye was found to be too weak.
I believe the purpose of the eyes was most probably to serve as a belaying point for frapping lines. The primary purpose of frapping lines was to connect near the bow and stern and to steady the boat to prevent rocking athwartship in rough weather conditions. Another use has been to pull the boat up against the embarkation deck for passenger loading. One of the reasons that these eyes and the associated frapping lines have been a mystery is probably because of their lack of use. It was a rare occurrence for lifeboats to be launched under duress in a maritime setting at the time of Titanic. In the case of Titanic disaster, the sea was described as a “mill pond” in that it was so calm. I doubt that frapping lines were even rigged. Their secondary use to pull the boat up against the embarkation deck would probably not have been necessary either. If the boat was swung out and lowered for loading, the davit could be rotated slightly inboard and the boat would come back in contact with the ship and remain there by gravity. The main concern during the launch of Titanic’s boats was keeping them level fore and aft. The center of gravity was also well below the disengaging gear so the boat was naturally stable when in the falls.
If conditions were rough then the frapping lines could be belayed through both of the eyes on both the fore and aft ends of the ship. It would only take two men to man the lines to keep the boat from rocking athwartship. This steadying pull by the frapping lines would not put undue strain on the eyes as would be the case in the theory where they would be used in lowering the boat from within the boat.
So my theory in a nutshell is that these structures are “frapping eyes” which acted as a belaying point for the frapping lines. I realize it is a theory until someone with a lot of knowledge identifies unequivocally but I believe it has fewer holes in it than a lot of other theories I’ve heard.

Regards,
Bob Read[/QUOTE]




Bob,

Hate to tell you this.... 


Let's look at your first point.... the painter.

The painter is secured to a boat by passing the eye under a thwart and then over with a standing part nipped into the eye and then insert a fid. The purpose of having a painter attached to a ship is when used in launching lifeboats.... you might cannot 'let go' of no one there on board left to let it go! So, pull the fid and you can let go the painter. Safety thing. More importantly, the small chocks you are talking about in this photo would not take any weight something like that of a boat.

Frapping Lines. I had to used internet to see what you are talking about. Perhaps in USA, never on the other side of the ocean... definitely not from a Belfast ship for sure! ;-)

We call 'frapping lines' as called 'bowsing tackle'. Frapping lines are you are describing could not be that used. Two men... one each end... to lines to attach at ends of a boat to keep it steady and against alongside.... would be pulled overboard as soon as the boat moved. Not enough strength of man to do that.

So... what they are called bowsing tackle. When the boat is swung out and lowered to deck edge there will be a gap between boat and ship. The boat will usually rock as embarking. To keep the boat fast against the ship's side there will be two sets of tackle.. double luff blocks... one hook attached to the boat and the other hook made fast to a ring bolt on deck. The crew can then made the trackle fast and the boat will be steady and safe for crew/passengers to embark. When ready to lower away, slack out the tackle and unhook and pass over the block back on board the ship. No further use. The crew then go into the boat using boarding ladder. 

OK... for this bowsing tackle block must be fast to some part of the ship. The small part you are describing in photo would be broken off in the first moment. It tackle is taking almost the whole weight of the boat. The only way to take the weight is the main lifting boat hook for the falls. In modern boats... well not quite like today... but say forty/fifty years ago... it was ususal that the bowsing tackle wouth be hooked onto a lug on the lower block of the falls. Probably back in old days like TITANIC they could have used something like a strop to attached to the hook.

So... no painter... no frapping lines in used is attaching to the boat as you have describled.

I am quite convince the parts described are used for used at attaching parts of the jib .... at fore end of the boat for the 'fore tack'. For the mainsail.... at the stern of the boat... for the main sheet connection.

There is no possible reason for the use of the parts. Must be as connections for the sail gear. I don't know the exactly how those connection were made. Between 1912 and the 1960 and now to 2014... thing are not quite the same... of course some parts use similar names.

One last thought... You are no doubt thinking that boats in TITANIC were swung out and lowered out in Cameron's movie? For one thing.... the boats had to have been bowsed in... with the tackles to keep the boat hard against the ship's side... even in calm seas. Movement into the boat would be a disaster. Boats swing and buck trying to get passengers into their seats.... impossible as Cameron described.

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Bob... a few more comments:


Another use has been to pull the boat up against the embarkation deck for passenger loading.

YES, YOU MUST USE THE BOWSING TACKLE FOR THAT PURPOSE. 



One of the reasons that these eyes and the associated frapping lines have been a mystery is probably because of their lack of use.

WHY A MYSTERY? THE TACKLE IS TAKEN OUT FROM THE BOAT WHEN READY TO USE AND AFTER USE THE TACKLE IS UNHOOKED. NO FURTHER TO KEEP THEM INTO THE BOAT.


In the case of Titanic disaster, the sea was described as a “mill pond” in that it was so calm. I doubt that frapping lines were even rigged. Their secondary use to pull the boat up against the embarkation deck would probably not have been necessary either. If the boat was swung out and lowered for loading, the davit could be rotated slightly inboard and the boat would come back in contact with the ship and remain there by gravity.

THIS IDEA DOES NOT WORK. IN THEORY MIGHT... BUT NOT POSSIBLE. WHAT HAPPENS IF THE IS EVEN SLIGHT LISTING FROM ONE SIDE OR OTHER... IT WOULD BE ALL NIGHT TRYING TO SET THEM TO HOLD THE BOAT IN POSITION. 

The main concern during the launch of Titanic’s boats was keeping them level fore and aft. The center of gravity was also well below the disengaging gear so the boat was naturally stable when in the falls.

OOPS! THE CENTRE OF GRAVITY OF A BOAT WHEN HANGING IN THE FALLS.... WOULD BE RIGHT UP TO THE TOPS OF THE DAVITS.... NOT LOW DOWN IN THE BOAT ITSELF. ANY WEIGHT HANGING FROM A POINT (LIKE TOP OF THE DAVIT) APPEARS TO ACT FROM THE TOP... NOT DOWN LOW IN THE ACTUAL WEIGHT ITSELF. THIS IS FACT! NO DIFFERENCE THAN A LOAD HANGING FROM A WIRE ON A CRANE OR DERRICK.

DISENGAGING GEAR? JUST SLACK AWAY THE FALLS AND PULL THE BLOCK AWAY FROM THE HOOK.
It would only take two men to man the lines to keep the boat from rocking athwartship. 

EMPTY BOAT WEIGHT IS PROBABLY ABOUT 2 TONS AT LEAST. 


STEPHEN


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## Stephen J. Card

Bob....
I guess this is the closest I've been into being the same type of boats as TITANIC. Was as a passenger... could not exactly check under the covers to see the details!
m.v. LOCH SEAFORTH 1971

Stephen


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## spongebob

Has anyone got a copy of Howard Chapelle's book "Wooden Boat construction"
This classic volume should show this detail.
My copy is in the hands of my son.

Bob


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## Stephen J. Card

Nope. Not seen this one.

Closest I can find on my selves is WOODEN SHIP-BUILDING, Charles Desmond.

Excellent.... stability, design, joinery, bending beams, outfitting, rigging... steam & motor and sail, trawlers, even on how to hang doors!

Nothing there on lifeboats. I guess not important!


Stephen


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## Nick Balls

Referred to as 'Sheet block eye' in this diagram, also note 'Tack eye'


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## Stephen J. Card

Nick Balls said:


> Referred to as 'Sheet block eye' in this diagram, also note 'Tack eye'



Nick,

Excellent! Questioned and answered! Thanks also for the drawing... no chance of this being a mistake!

The names of parts I used.... "at fore end of the boat for the 'fore tack'. For the mainsail.... at the stern of the boat... for the main sheet connection." Mine are from the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship. I was bound to find 'different' names between RN and MN!

The OP used a name 'frapping line'. Ever heard that one? I can see it in internet. Possibly this is a new name?

Again Nick... thanks to also OP.

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Just one other thought...

My names Fore tack and main sheet... are correct for jib and gaff mainsail.

Your's for tack eye and sheet block eye.... for a dipping lug.

Again... likely to have a gaff rig in a boat in RN and dipping lug more likely to be MN in a lifeboat.

Thanks.

Stephen


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## Nick Balls

Stephen,
Frapping lines refer to a light rope used to take frapping turns around two parts of rope. It's the way a boom was secured at sea.

Nick


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## bpread

Sorry to throw cold water on the discussion but this pair of objects at the bow end is not for the tack. See the image below. I have pointed to the tack hooks at the bow of one of the Titanic lifeboats.
Also from maritime expert Paul Bruno:
"Lines attached to the bow and stern of the lifeboat are called Frapping Lines and are used to control the movement of the boat as it is lowered or raised. An additional line is attached to the bow of the lifeboat to keep it near the ship after all other rigging has been released. This line is called a Sea Painter."

Regards,
Bob Read


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## joebuckham

bpread said:


> Sorry to throw cold water on the discussion but this pair of objects at the bow end is not for the tack. See the image below. I have pointed to the tack hooks at the bow of one of the Titanic lifeboats.
> Also from maritime expert Paul Bruno:
> "Lines attached to the bow and stern of the lifeboat are called Frapping Lines and are used to control the movement of the boat as it is lowered or raised. An additional line is attached to the bow of the lifeboat to keep it near the ship after all other rigging has been released. This line is called a Sea Painter."
> 
> Regards,
> Bob Read


genuine question! to what do we frap as we leave the boat deck


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## Stephen J. Card

OK... now we get to get technical!

Go back to my posting no. 13. We can forget about 'frapping lines'. We are talkng about TITANIC boats in 1912. There was no thing used as "Frapping Lines' back in that period. 

I see from some photos of lifeboats... showing 'frapping lines'. They can do some of the purpose.... two hefty lines attached to the lower block to help the boat against the ship's side. They are to keep the boat from the deck level down to sea level and then the blocks can be pulled back onto deck. I see all this etc etc. I'll give you 100% on that for two things.... 

1. Frapping lines is a relatively term in lifeboat equipment.

Note:

"A few newly required people to the marine purchasing scene have no knowledge of what a Bowsing Tackle is nor what the purpose of it is. I will try to enlighten them on the use of it and also explain how it is put together. A Bowsing Tackle is simply two wooden blocks double or triple whatever your preference is. Mostly used is a 2-sheave block in each end. A rope suited for the size of sheaves ties them together. Running freely through the sheaves in loops it becomes a handy and powerful pulling tool. Knowing the law of weight reduction versus pull strength when using this type of a pulley you can understand the handiness of it. As a Bowsing Tackle it is used for holding your lifeboat in place alongside the ship when lowered from the Davit. It simply pulls the lifeboat up close to the shipside so people can enter safely into it while hanging from the Davits. Once all is onboard you simply loosen up the rope and the lifeboat will swing out from the shipside so you can safely lower it down into the water. This way the whole operation becomes safe and you avoid swinging the lifeboat abruptly."


So.... back in 1912... it was BOWSING TACKLE. Not likely that would be using any other name of this from to the B.O.T. or the D.O.T. or the D.T.I. etc. 

Also from maritime expert Paul Bruno:
"Lines attached to the bow and stern of the lifeboat are called Frapping Lines and are used to control the movement of the boat as it is lowered or raised. An additional line is attached to the bow of the lifeboat to keep it near the ship after all other rigging has been released. This line is called a Sea Painter."

"FRAPPING LINES AND USED TO CONTROL THE MOVEMENT OF THE BOAT AS IT LOWERED AND RAISED"

BOWSING TACKLE were used in boats then. BOWSING TACKLES hold the boat against the ship. Once the passengers are embarked into the boat the boats can be realease ready from the ship's side. The BOWSING TACKLE had be unhooked and then that block is pulled back onto the deck. The lifeboat is then ready to be lowered to water level. The block are pushed away from the boat. If we had 'frapping lines' back then we would probably just using the end of one of the MAN ROPES. No winch to bring the low blocks back in board or use 'Norwegian Steam'.

No. 2.

We still need a term for those small wooden chocks you are trying toi identify. They would NEVER take weight of a boat... EITHER as BOWSING TACKLE or as FRAPPING LINES. All of these parts need a strong anchor to be attached... either to the lifting hook.... or the open link attached to the lower block. Those small wooden chocks would have to take 2 tons weight... at least... empty boat. Those small parts would simple carry away.



If the small tacks attached in the small photo of your TITANIC's boat.... then at the stern end of the boats must have two other parts and a fair explanation can be:

The small horizontal chock can be attached for the main sheet lines.

The small vertical chock is just likely as an attachment for a 'grommet' to pass through for a steering oar. One is needed for the boat. Yes, the boats have rudders, but all rowing boats also have a steering oar 'just in case'.... or when in surf.

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Nick Balls said:


> Stephen,
> Frapping lines refer to a light rope used to take frapping turns around two parts of rope. It's the way a boom was secured at sea.
> 
> Nick



Thanks Nick. 

All them things around two parts of rope on a yacht are Frapping Lines. Rather fancy name for 'bungee cords'!


OK GENTLEMEN..... PAY ATTENTION!!!!! 

Reference: The Gaff Rig Handbook - John Leather 

Chapter Three - RUNNING RIGGING.

Page 34. Drawing 'Typical maninsheets arrangements' Figure 26a.

The drawing quite easily shows two parts... one part vertical, the other horizontal.

In part...

The mainsheet must have sufficient power to sheet in the mainsail, a full of wind, in strong winds and to gybe the vessel.

The lower block from the boom to the sternsheets is fast to the vertical chock. The running part runs through the horizontal chock. 

Plain to see. 


Another note re Frapping.... and a good reason why not used in the day of Titanic's time.....

Ref: SEAMANSHIP IN THE AGE OF SAIL - Harland. An account of the shiphandling of the sailing man-of war 1600 to 1860 - based on contemporary sources.

FRAPPING, or GIRDLING the hull. This was: "The act of passing four or five turns of a large cable-laid rope round a ship's hull, when it is apprehend that she is not strong enough to resist the violence of the sea. This expedient it is only made by very old ships, which their owners venture to send to sea as long as possible. insuring them deeply. Such are termed. not unaptly, floating coffins, as were the old ten-gun brigs, or any deemed as to seaworthiness' (Smythe, 321).

Stephen


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## bpread

Stephen:
Since your argument hinges on your citation: * Page 34. Drawing 'Typical maninsheets arrangements' Figure 26a.

The drawing quite easily shows two parts... one part vertical, the other horizontal.*

then posting a scan of the image would settle the argument. If you decline then your other arguments are not persuasive. Additionally, this rig did not use a boom. 
Also, do you have to use so much all caps shouting? Very annoying and condescending.

Regards,
Bob Read


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## Stephen J. Card

bpread said:


> Stephen:
> Since your argument hinges on your citation: * Page 34. Drawing 'Typical maninsheets arrangements' Figure 26a.
> 
> The drawing quite easily shows two parts... one part vertical, the other horizontal.*
> 
> then posting a scan of the image would settle the argument. If you decline then your other arguments are not persuasive. Additionally, this rig did not use a boom.
> Also, do you have to use so much all caps shouting? Very annoying and condescending.
> 
> Regards,
> Bob Read




Bob, 

Before going any further... do know what the meaning of the the word 'apashia'? Look it up. 


I use caps where and when I use in order to highlight certain points. I am not shouting at you at all. Caps can be are used or by highlighting.

I have tried to show you all of the things that you have been thinking about what like frapping lines etc is because cannot possibly used in the days of TITANIC and the small fittings you have found on the boats because the fitting cannot possibly taken the weight of a fully loaded.

Back to the drawing in Mainsheets arrangement... it is a schematic drawing. I can draw it out if you need?


With a standing lug or with a dipping lug.... without a boom, quite right... and also gaff rig with loose foot also with boom.... the rig of the main sheets can be exactly the same. 

I am reading right here in my hand... two copies Admiralty Manual of Seamanship. Volume One dated 1964. The other is Volume One dated 1908 - Revised and reprinted 1922.

As follows:

"The mainsheet is a jigger, the single block of which is hooked to the clew of the mainsail with a tack hook' and the double block of which is hooked on the horse."

The two pieces... one for the lower block and the other as a lead for the sheets.



Stephen


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## RayJordandpo

joebuckham said:


> genuine question! to what do we frap as we leave the boat deck


If I was abandoning a ship that was sinking (such as the Titanic) I would be "frapping" frapping like a bees wing! (Thumb)


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## chadburn

Frapping to me is an old word which means moving a boat Ahead or Astern by means of ropes alongside a vessel that is stationary, you can frap a vessel alongside a Quay using the same method.


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## joebuckham

RayJordandpo said:


> If I was abandoning a ship that was sinking (such as the Titanic) I would be "frapping' frapping like a bees wing! (Thumb)


to what?? you frap while embarking the boats complement, then at the most expedient time when you have a clear run, let go the 'frapping' frapping and lower away as quickly as possible into the water where the falls are let go and the boat is held on the for'd painter or not as the cir***stances dictate


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## Nick Balls

I think we are getting tied up in knots over the use of words and the changes over time in different phrases. That said its very interesting. Just at the moment I am in the process of moving and my library of nautical literature is packed. We seem to be getting into 'bowsing in' gear and I am surprised that no gripes have yet been mentioned. 
Getting back to the original question and looking at the original picture that promoted the question. The horizontal wooden chock shown is roved directly through the plank land with no obvious strengthening. This from a boatbuilding point of view is not an arrangement that would take any great strain. The second vertical chock is arranged differently being rove thro' the gunwale and aligned with a timber, this could take more strain than the first. The tack hook is also clearly visible as a separate item. So we seem to be back to square one. I have some very good books with detailed drawings of boat construction around the coasts of the UK at the end of the era of sailing (Edgar J March) Some of the origins of lifeboat design originate around the east coast of England and clinker built double ended fast working craft such as Yarmouth Yawls did have similar rigs. That said the development of ships lifeboats has seen special requirements, as have been mentioned regarding a requirement to bowes the vessel into the ships side prior to launch and the requirements for painters that can be quickly released.


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## joebuckham

have used the word frapping in my posts because it has been the word in common usage in this thread however I have never heard it used before in this context 
bowse in was in common use when I first went to sea and was still in use, when I retired, to describe tasks similar to this



> from william falconer, fraping, the act of crossing and drawing together the several parts of a tackle, or other complication of ropes, which had already been straightened to their utmost extent: in this sense. it exactly resembles the operation of bracing up a drum, &c. The fraping always increases the tension, and of course adds to the security acquired by the purchase.


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## bpread

Over and out.

Bob Read


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## joebuckham

bpread said:


> Over and out.
> 
> Bob Read


hi bob, no intent to upset I am very interested in the origin of words and would also still like to know what the two pieces of timber were used for


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## Stephen J. Card

chadburn said:


> Frapping to me is an old word which means moving a boat Ahead or Astern by means of ropes alongside a vessel that is stationary, you can frap a vessel alongside a Quay using the same method.





The word is 'warping' or might even say 'walk alongside'.

Stephen


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## chadburn

Stephen J. Card said:


> The word is 'warping' or might even say 'walk alongside'.
> 
> Stephen


Sorry Steven Frapping is an old word, I have just read on another Site where a craft was fitted with Frapping winches, the craft was a stationary Suction Reclamation Plant and to move the Spoil Barge backwards and forwards whilst the removal of spoil was sucked out they used these winches fitted to either end of the Suction Plant to keep the Barge close alongside. This falls in line with joebuckhams quote, he will also know the Suction Plant I am referring to.


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## Stephen J. Card

chadburn said:


> Sorry Steven Frapping is an old word, I have just read on another Site where a craft was fitted with Frapping winches, the craft was a stationary Suction Reclamation Plant and to move the Spoil Barge backwards and forwards whilst the removal of spoil was sucked out they used these winches fitted to either end of the Suction Plant to keep the Barge close alongside. This falls in line with joebuckhams quote, he will also know the Suction Plant I am referring to.



This make even clearer on the use of 'Frapping' and as 'Frapping Line' on a lifeboat. It seems that the term is when used when a winch is also involved. The frapping lines on boats are used with winches to keep.... alongside... from the deck edge... right down to sea level until the falls are released. Bowsing tackle used back in 1912... and later, but now a frapping line with winch can be used. 

Of course... how the he*l do you use a frapping line with winch when the power fails? !!!!

Re spoils ground.....

Seen on or on the chart.... "Spoil Ground Buoy". Call it a "Chinese Buoy". The buoy looks like..... 'Yellow buoy with a black bottom'!

Very technical today!


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## Stephen J. Card

Nick Balls said:


> We seem to be getting into 'bowsing in' gear and I am surprised that no gripes have yet been mentioned.
> .




It seems back about 1912.... the boats sat on a cradle on the deck. The cradle just for the inner bilge. The grips was just a short length of small chain with senhouse slip... one clamp over the gunn'l and the other end shackled to a small ringbolt into the deck. I guess the falls, the cradle and the short gripe was enough to keep the boat 'safe'.


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## Nick Balls

Anyway having looked at several pictures of the these particular lifeboats I do see that these particular fittings only appear on the larger type of boat. Do we know if the fitting was both port & starboard or simply on the one side? 
OED Ref to Frapping
1867 W. H. Smyth Sailor's Word-bk. (at cited word), Frapping turns, in securing the booms at sea the several turns of the lashings are frapped in preparation for the succeeding turns.
1867 W. H. Smyth Sailor's Word-bk. (at cited word), The frapping increases tension.

Warping:The action of moving a ship from one place to another by means of warps.


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## bpread

Hi Nick:
These structures were indeed only found on the 30 ft. main lifeboats. They were found at both ends of the boat on opposite sides. Example:
there could be a pair on the port aft end and the forward starboard end. Just to complicate things, some boats had this arrangement reversed, i.e. starboard aft and forward port. A comprehensive analysis has not shown any pattern to the variation in positions. The smaller 25 ft. boats were "emergency cutters" and were not primarily meant for use by passengers but they could be if the situation was dire.

Regards,
Bob Read


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## Nick Balls

This of course compounds the 'problem' Lifeboats are normally numbered as even number port, odd number starboard. So No 4 lifeboat would be from the port side. No 5 from the Starboard side. The question then is, does a pattern emerge regarding position of fittings when the side from which the boat came from is considered?


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## Mad Landsman

Frapping. Here is what W H Smythe has to say:

(to)FRAP: To bind tightly together. To pass lines around a sail to keep it from blowing loose. To secure the falls of a tackle together by means of spun yarn, rope yarn, or any lashings wound round them; To snap the finger and thumb; to beat. 

FRAPPING: The act of crossing and drawing together several parts of a tackle, or other complication of ropes, which had already been strained to a great extent; In this sense it exactly resembles the operation of the bracing of a drum. The frapping increases tension and consequently adds to the security acquired by the purchase; hence the cat-harpings were no other than frappings to the shrouds.

FRAPPING A SHIP: (already mentioned above) The act of passing four or five turns of large cable laid rope round a ship's hull when it is apprehended that she is not strong enough to resist the violence of the seas........

FRAPPING TURNS: In securing the booms at sea the several turns of the lashings are frapped in preparation for the succeeding turns; in emergency, nailed. 

I hope that helps. 

From a pure engineering point of view I have to concur with Nick Balls, in that the two blocks were unlikely to have individually served the same purpose but may have been complementary. The vertical block is strongly mounted and accessible from both faces; The horizontal block would not take strain without damaging the boat and only the top is fully accessible. 
If a rope is intended to be passed though the eye then the vertical block would be amenable to threading and would take a strain. 
Supposing this to be the case then the direction of strain would, I suggest, be perpendicular to the alignment of the hole, otherwise the rope would be required to turn sharply with increasing chaffing and reduction in strength. 
With the horizontal block the axis would be vertical - where to? To a boom maybe?


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## bpread

Mr. Landsman:
There was no boom used with the dipping lug rig of these boats.
I think we're getting too hung up on definitions of "frapping". Let's set that word aside for a moment. What I was postulating was that these objects represented a means to dampen rocking of the boat. By that I mean rotation about the axis with the disengaging gear at the center. I do not mean swinging of the boat from the davit. Below is a drawing used to portray the motion these lines I propose were meant to prevent. The attachment of these lines would be forward and aft of the thwarts so as not to affect passengers or vice versa. They do _not_
take the full weight of the boat. They are merely meant to dampen the rocking movement. They would _not_ pull a man overboard because they would take a turn around the boat bitts. I may be completely wrong in my analysis but let me ask a question: How would rocking motion otherwise be dampened? This would be a concern in these boats because they used a disengaging gear which could possibly open and drop at least one end of the boat if there was sufficient force. 
These eyes being on opposite sides could dampen rotation in either direction, clockwise or counterclockwise. I suggested that they worked in tandem to provide both a secure attachment and so that the force applied to them would be spread over a wider area. 
How would you otherwise arrest this motion? A painter is right in the middle of the axis of rotation.
Regards,
Bob Read


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## bpread

Nick
One of the patterns which was explored was whether there was any correlation to whether the boat came from the starboard or port side. There was not.
Regards
Bob Read


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## Mad Landsman

Bob,
Your idea sounds entirely logical. Whether or not such a system was used and, indeed, how it was used we need to find out.
The horizontal block, as I suggest, has the hole axis in the vertical and any load would be in that direction. 
If ropes were previously placed ready in the boat, fore and aft, leading from the block and bent onto the davits then a crewman at each end could pay out the rope while the boat was being lowered (after the bousing tackle had been released). 
The blocks would need to be positioned, as they are, as far from the centreline as possible to maximise the turning moment but at the same time they must in a position where a crewman can work them without hinderance. 
If no-one was available to work the ropes they would still have a steadying effect by simple friction, assuming the ropes are properly flaked down and could pay out evenly.
Once the boat had been released then the steadying ropes could be run out and left, hence not seen at a later time.
I would also suggest that the blocks were 'either/or' and that the vertical blocks could be used with an empty boat with just one man midships working both ends. 

Malcolm.


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## joebuckham

Mad Landsman said:


> Bob,
> Your idea sounds entirely logical. Whether or not such a system was used and, indeed, how it was used we need to find out.
> The horizontal block, as I suggest, has the hole axis in the vertical and any load would be in that direction.
> If ropes were previously placed ready in the boat, fore and aft, leading from the block and bent onto the davits then a crewman at each end could pay out the rope while the boat was being lowered (after the bousing tackle had been released).
> The blocks would need to be positioned, as they are, as far from the centreline as possible to maximise the turning moment but at the same time they must in a position where a crewman can work them without hinderance.
> If no-one was available to work the ropes they would still have a steadying effect by simple friction, assuming the ropes are properly flaked down and could pay out evenly.
> Once the boat had been released then the steadying ropes could be run out and left, hence not seen at a later time.
> I would also suggest that the blocks were 'either/or' and that the vertical blocks could be used with an empty boat with just one man midships working both ends.
> 
> Malcolm.


Malcolm they wouldn't even supply enough boat space for all souls (Cloud)


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## bpread

As interesting as it might be to adjudicate the responsibility for the events surrounding the Titanic disaster can we not hijack this thread. Peripheral discussions can be discussed in their own threads.
Thanks.

Regards,
Bob Read


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## Mad Landsman

joebuckham said:


> Malcolm they wouldn't even supply enough boat space for all souls (Cloud)


What I am suggesting is the _theory of how it should work_ at the design and building stage of the boats - Not the practice of use in an actual emergency.
The feature was probably not unique to one ship.

I think that many people, myself included, have encountered the huge difference between design and use in the field.


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## joebuckham

could this be the answer: courtesy munro's primer

regards joe b


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## Nick Balls

I'm not sure about this rocking business. Among the many pictures of Titanic and contemporary boats is a picture of a very similar boat on the Megantic. This shows quite clearly how the Boat was bowsed against the horizontal bar using two diagonal lines. Yes these would have been released as the boat was put into the lowering position but any swing that occurred after this would have not been controlled by the mystery fittings. The problem is that the angle changes quickly as the boat goes down and the control of the boat is taken up better with the main bow painter and possibly with a stern line. This is a problem I have encountered having launched boats at sea many times. Even today with modern equipment the rocking problem remains and skill at launching a boat comes down to a smooth and rapid descent, which decreases the possibly of a 'rocking' boat. If these fittings had been simple cleats I could see a possible argument for this but has as been said they are more specific that that.


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## Stephen J. Card

I tried to explain in the earlier post. The bowsing tackle to be used to keep the boat hard up to the side of the ship or the boats or rocked or whatever it can be called. We know from our own experiences at sea that bowsing tackle was attached to the 'O' link between the lifting look and the lower block of the falls.

Remember how the boat could become a bucking horse if you failed to secure the bowsing tackle once the tricing penants were released. The only piece of gear required close by and secured for use was the small axe.

For sure... the two wooden fittings OP is questioning could not be strong to attach bowsing tackle and the idea of holding a light line to hand hold the boat steady is impossible. The 30ft boats would weigh loaded probably 4 to 5 tones. Two or more men cannot hold a heavy boat with 65 passengers and taking another 30 minutes to load.

Stephen


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## bpread

Ok, here is a challenge to those who dismiss the theory of the use of lines and these structures to dampen rocking motion:
If these structures are indeed for sail handling please provide some sort of detailed diagram or photo showing how both bow and stern structures would be rigged with a loose footed lugsail with a dipping lug rig. I've put up all sorts of photos and drawings to demonstrate my theory. It's time to put up or...

Regards
Bob Read


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## Dickyboy

In my opinion the two eyes in the original picture don't appear to be load bearing, for bowsing in or whatever, being wooden and partly at least fixed to the hull. I think perhaps as they are so close to each other, they may be for stowing the same thing in either a horizontal or vertical position as required. Say a boat hook, perhaps for when the sail + boat hook is used for catching rain water for example. Or securing stuff once removed from the storage containers. Lamp, Colza oil, hatchet, something like that.....


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## Mad Landsman

joebuckham said:


> could this be the answer: courtesy munro's primer
> 
> regards joe b


Well that throws #45 out the window - I was just hypothosising after all!

Maybe the purpose of the blocks is much more prosaic - as lashing points for loose gear.


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## bpread

I'll see your Munro's Primer and raise you *"The Lifeboat -It's Construction, Equipment and Management: A guide to the Board of Trade Lifeboat Efficiency Examination" by Harold S. Blake (1926)*

See outlined text.

Regards,
Bob Read


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## Nick Balls

There are a few points of agreement here.
1)The fittings are wood and therefore in there configeration represent a 'lightweight fitting'
2) The fittings occur in the boat at bow and stern on opposite sides but never as a pair port & Starboard.
3)The arrangement seems random (not connected to which side the particular boat was to the vessel)
This would seem to exclude
a) Use of sheets (They would only be at the stern in that case)
b) Associated with lowering gear as they are lightweight. 

What we do know is that they are arranged together in the same configuration, in other words they seem to relate to each other.

They remind me of a very old sailing boat I used to own, from the 1920's. This had a traditional rig consisting of a wooden mast and spars (Gunter rig) The forestay of this boat consisted of a soft wire eye (well parcelled) that simply looped over the mast. However the device that stopped it slipping down was a very similar wooden chock with a simple hole in it, The chock takes little load but acts to stop the wire moving. All the force is taken by the whole diameter of the mast. 
In lots of ways the fittings look similar BUT I can't for the life of me see how they would work or what they are for...............still looking at it and digging out literature.

Another point....did rope pass through the hole or was it a pin (Belay) or rod ( as in a supporting frame)

What might you have a 'one of' for use at bow or stern? Sea Anchor (this has two lines but would have to carry full weight on the main one, the tripping line however would have no load)

What about toggle painters which have a wooden pin to slip? A wooden pin on a line? 

Keep thinking you guys we need answers!!


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## Stephen J. Card

bpread said:


> I'll see your Munro's Primer and raise you *"The Lifeboat -It's Construction, Equipment and Management: A guide to the Board of Trade Lifeboat Efficiency Examination" by Harold S. Blake (1926)*
> 
> See outlined text.
> 
> Regards,
> Bob Read




Yes, this is correct... OR if in a locker beneath the thwart. No lockers under the thwarts of TITANIC.

It is also true that is sail by some experts that said that loose gear that was usually in the boat was kept in a deck locker to prevent theft. Also said that some items were left in the deck locker and were not put into the boat.


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## Nick Balls

Good Youtube clip of another similar boat.............No clues?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0cnbuqW7i4


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## Stephen J. Card

Here three photos for consideration.

1. Photo of WW1 lifeboat (sternsheets) that has been restorated in a museum. Nothing of what we need for a Titanic boat, but shows some small things that can be found in a boat... and 'might be used' for those two chocks.

2. Large lifeboat of modern vessel... c 1965. Just to show how the bowsing tackle is rigged... from the deck side to the lower block of the falls and shows how the boat is kept steady and hard against to the ship's side.

Note:

From you post:

Also from maritime expert Paul Bruno:
"Lines attached to the bow and stern of the lifeboat are called Frapping Lines and are used to control the movement of the boat as it is lowered or raised. An additional line is attached to the bow of the lifeboat to keep it near the ship after all other rigging has been released. This line is called a Sea Painter."


Bowsing tackle is completely in difference from the purpose in use of a boat.... c. 1912


Whatever you can call these two items.... it cannot be use, in any way, to help in keeping the boat stead during embarkation.



Lastly.... see Certificate Of Efficency As Lifeboatman.

Do you have one or have had practical work with lifeboats? I think all of the other fellows here on this Thread on SN are also "Lifeboatmen"!

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Nick,

Good for the YouTube. See the photo attached.... DEVANHA. 

For good a YouTube for lifeboats...


" BOAT DRILL A MAURETANIA AKA AQUITANIA? 1920-1930 "

The footage shown is actually Aquitania. The first part is boat rowing. Second part is lowering boats. What a work of job it must have been for Boat Drill!

They show passengers embarking through a shell door. In real emergency they would have gone from Boat Deck or from Promenade Deck 'A' or Bridge Deck 'B'.

Stephen


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## bpread

Ok Stephen we get it. You know everything and we know nothing.
Well... almost everything. You stated "...no lockers under the thwarts of Titanic." In the attached photo you can clearly see the door for a stern locker under the aft thwart.
You've made your points over and over and over. The problem is simple: you don't know what these things are either. However you seem to delight in reminding us how smart you are and how dumb we are. Why don't you spend your time in another thread and let those of us who want to do an honest investigation alone? If you want to persist then I'm outta here because after all this there still isn't an answer even from an "expert" like you.
Bob Read


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## Duncan112

I'm afraid I side with Stephen on this one - you asked a question, the answers offered do not agree with your preconceptions and you decline to give an account of your own abilities or knowledge.


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## Stephen J. Card

Listen Jack,

You don't listed or read properly. I said 'no thwarts'. Did I say no lockers under stern locker?


I didn't say that I knew what these 'things' were...I said what they MIGHT be.... COULD be... etc. YOU are the one that kept on saying that they were for FRAPPING LINE. KRAPPO!

If the answer can be find here on Ships Nostalgia one day. For sure won't be find with your attitude! Unless people try to help you, why bother? I spent more than a few hours looking for question. Many thanks. You cannot answer a simple question either.

Perhaps you might find on your paper... on that small cardpaper tube you use at home!


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## bpread

Stephen:
I give you and you alone permission not to be helpful to me anymore.
In fact, I'm begging you. Go somewhere else and brag.

Bob Read


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## Stephen J. Card

The first real live idiot I have met on 8 years of Ships Nostalgia. Just in case you don't know... you don't OWN any thread on SN!


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## Mad Landsman

Stephen J. Card said:


> The first real live idiot I have met on 8 years of Ships Nostalgia. Just in case you don't know... you don't OWN any thread on SN!


Don't forget the Swedish 'expert'! B\)


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## Stephen J. Card

Mad Landsman said:


> Don't forget the Swedish 'expert'! B\)




Ah.... the big Swede and my pal Flipvs were just 'sparring'.


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## Dickyboy

Almost certainly not for securing sheets or other ropes to, as these would need to be threaded through. Surely cleats would have been better for that? I still reckon they are for sticking something rigid into but only when required.


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## chadburn

Try this one, the holes had tapered pegs a bit like Thole Pins and the Bow Rope was lashed around them, removal of the pins was a quick release method of the Bow Rope.


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## Dickyboy

chadburn said:


> Try this one, the holes had tapered pegs a bit like Thole Pins and the Bow Rope was lashed around them, removal of the pins was a quick release method of the Bow Rope.


No fairleads on the gunwale for a bow rope that I can see....


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## Stephen J. Card

Dickyboy said:


> No fairleads on the gunwale for a bow rope that I can see....


Bow rope is usually with an eye under a thwart and then with a bight unto the eye... with a wooden fid for a quick release.



With pins that can be used in BOTH holes. 

Or again.... if going to be used in the sheets.... a small strop through the horizontal hole... hook through for one of the blocks and a single pin through the vertical hole.... creates a cleat for the sheet line to made fast.

To with the other set on the bow? Might be that one set on the after end and a second on the opposite side... to the bow.... makes for a second set of cleats.


----------



## Dickyboy

Stephen J. Card said:


> Bow rope is usually with an eye under a thwart and then with a bight unto the eye... with a wooden fid for a quick release.
> 
> 
> 
> With pins that can be used in BOTH holes.
> 
> Or again.... if going to be used in the sheets.... a small strop through the horizontal hole... hook through for one of the blocks and a single pin through the vertical hole.... creates a cleat for the sheet line to made fast.
> 
> To with the other set on the bow? Might be that one set on the after end and a second on the opposite side... to the bow.... makes for a second set of cleats.


Yeah, my point is the fact that there is no fairlead nearby, which I would have expected to see close by if the lugs were there to lead a rope outboard. I find it strange that there isn't a fairlead in that area anyway (Near the Bow) as one would be essential for anything leading outboard, whether it be for towing or a sea anchor for example. Without a fairlead any rope/line would just slide around the gunwale. Perhaps lifeboats weren't fitted with fairleads and a belaying type pin was used to stick in one or both of the holes to turn a rope up on in a figure of eight. The pin itself sticking above the gunwale could hold the line/rope in the correct position (In line) for towing or streaming. 
So in conclusion I would think that the lugs are part of an old fashioned fairlead setup. (Thumb)


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## Nick Balls

Why are the fittings only on the biggest boats ? What's different with them over the other boats? 
I've been thinking about the sea anchor tripping line ! 
These boats were very 'Navy style' and similar boats appear not to have fairleads on the gunnels.


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## joebuckham

bpread said:


> I'll see your Munro's Primer and raise you *"The Lifeboat -It's Construction, Equipment and Management: A guide to the Board of Trade Lifeboat Efficiency Examination" by Harold S. Blake (1926)*
> 
> See outlined text.
> 
> Regards,
> Bob Read


titanic 1912

" The Lifeboat -It's Construction, Equipment and Management: A guide to the Board of Trade Lifeboat Efficiency Examination" by Harold S. Blake(1926)


----------



## Stephen J. Card

Dickyboy said:


> No fairleads on the gunwale for a bow rope that I can see....


Right. No fairleads on any of the boats at all. Of course we would nowadays expect of some kind of fairlead. Perhaps in old days... they were to be used for abandon surposes and nothing else.

Use of the painter would be expecting for coming down from a ship's higher deck so a fairlead would not need it once the boat was slipped. Painter might be what... 2 inch circ.? A bit big stuff for round smallish cleats. 

Nick, as you said also... naval style boats not using any fairleads.


When Titanic's boats were dropped in New York it is said that souvenier hunters picked the boats clean. Might have the answer if the gear had been left in the boats before the photographers had taken a shot it the boats. 

Stephen


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## Nick Balls

I too have now looked at quite a few books and see many similarities with RN boats. However I still see no clue regarding the fittings. Of course the boatbuilders would have gone strictly by the plans, this could mean they were a design mistake! Thinking about ships I have worked on where a fitting was installed from the plans which was really either wrong or just incorrect..it does happen!


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## chadburn

It was in 1980 when I last took a Lifeboat for a jolly and can't remember any fittings on the Gunnels. Dickboy's comment had me puzzled, thought things had changed since I had left. Dragging a soaking wet Crew member/ passenger over the Gunnels with fittings attached would be a bit awkward and could do the body some harm.


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## Nick Balls

Only the largest boats had these fittings: looking at online pictures of all the boats I see that they seem to be fitted in the following fashion One set on starboard bow and One set on Port quarter. I can't see any variation in this? 
Looking at the attached picture of a similar period boat I see a short line on the port quarter (marked) What is it? Looks like a lizard line with block?


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## Stephen J. Card

Good close up of that photo of the boat! 

The boat is of the White Star Lines's MEGANTIC b. 1908 ( see attchached).

This one is also one of those 25 feet emergency boats... similar as the two small boats with the other TITANIC boats in New York. 

Good detail of how the emergency boats were rigged for overside. Especially with the spar and pudding fenders and the crossed gripes. 

The Lizard. I can think just a possible.... as single line sheet on the mainsail ( not really but I don't want to) What is more interesting... where is that lizard attached to? Only thing I can guess..... the tail is turned around a thole pin that is insterted into one of those blocks! Possibly. 

Stephen


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## Mad Landsman

It occurs to me that the person 'seeking information' was actually seeking someone to definitively agree with his own preconceived ideas and that he is surfing around websites in the hope of proving a theory rather than getting new information. 

My rambling hypothesis was an attempt to make sense of his theory, maybe I gave him fresh hope of finding a convert.... Sorry, but it *does not* make any sense. 

If he is still with us perhaps I could now try to point out why it would not work. Yes, I know you have tried, Stephen, but apparently you are over-qualified. 

When a lifeboat is launched, or perhaps that should be, when a lifeboat was launched 100 years ago, the loading is done at deck level with the boat held close to by means of bowsing tackle. 
During the loading there will be slight rocking and pitching which subsides when the passengers are settled.
After the bowsing tackle is released the boat may *swing* from side to side or even *range* fore and aft causing uneven loadings and producing the bucking motion mentioned. It is unlikely to rock while it is being lowered because the weight is being taken from the davits and hopefully everyone is sitting down. With the weight of a large lifeboat even one or two people throwing themselves from side to side would be unlikely to upset the inertial mass. 
Swinging and ranging together may induce yaw but not rocking. Each may be aggravated by any motion or heel of the ship. 

So that is the first part - Any stabilising ropes would not be necessary and would add complication where simplicity is required.

Next - supposing the theory were correct and these boats had a unique stabilising system, never seen anywhere else:
The size of rope required to have any effect would be roughly the same diameter as the holes in the blocks or chocks shown. 
In order to thread the rope through the horizontal chock the clearance beneath would make for a tight turn and impede threading. 
Passing a rope through a hole, with a turn before and/or after the hole, is asking for trouble - the rope may snag or kink and could never be considered 100% reliable, which could be a serious problem in the cir***stances of proposed use. 
If the rope were to snag then it would actually have the opposite effect to that intended and upset the boat, probably causing damage. 
The proposed stabilisation effect would only be efficient at or near the top of the descent. The lower it got the more acute the angle and the less leverage available. 

So that's is my conclusion, for what it's worth - If such an arrangement were fitted for some unknown reason it is unlikely to have worked reliably and efficiently.


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## Nick Balls

I think we have established from a seamanship point of view that these fittings are not for any kind of serious load bearing use. I'm curious myself, not from any 'Titanic' point of view but because of my interest in wooden boats and their construction. It's looking unlikely that we shall be able to give any definitive answer............but fun thinking about things. I'm not even sure that we have evidence that the horizontal chock has a hole in it. The vertical chock would loosely be described as a 'fairlead' but again could be for a belaying pin.


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## Farmer John

Does anyone know where the lifeboats were built, and who built them? My Granny watched Titanic being built in Belfast, and wagged off school to watch it being launched, her father was in charge of the linen factory that produced the linen (I still have a White Star line tablecloth), were the lifeboats contracted out, did they have a spec to be built to.

I have to say that I am enjoying this thread, keep the sniping down. Dug out my Ashley book of knots and went through it form end to end.

Don't shoot me for this, but do they have to have a very specific use? In a lifeboat or any open boat, there is always something that has a bit of whammie on the end of it, poke said whammy through the hole and put a stopper knot on it, and it is going nowhere. It doesn't seem that satisfactory, but maybe they had several uses.


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## Nick Balls

Good answer. I had also looked at those great little sketches in Ashley's.
Yes they did have a spec but according to the official enquiry where build using a single midship mould and then 'by eye' so varied a fair bit! 
I have just turned up something else......the first evidence of the now fabled fittings in a drawing. The boats were fitted with something called Murray's disengaging gear. Both ends of the boat could be quick released from a single central position. The Attached drawing for the 30 ft Boat shows the detail and also outlines the fittings...........they get no mention as to any direct functioning of the gear.....but is this another clue?


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## Stephen J. Card

Excellent find! 

The 'chocks' are there for sure. Good deatil of the after end of the boat, but then we can't say that the keel, the ribs, the gunn'l... might just to show the detail of the boat.

I wonder if Murray's Release was ever used? I wonder how many fingers and hands have been crushed by other methods!


Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Re Ashleys.

I was looking for it yesterday... it it out on loan to my nephew. He has a swordfish bill.. about 2.5 ft long. He is polishing it and wants me be to paint small painting on it. His idea is a bit of fancy ropework round the end. Might try if we can do it old scrimshaw might style on it... not sure if the 'bill' will work.

Sorry... off topic.


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## chadburn

Have a look at the photograph I have just placed in the Gallery section, could the mystery fittings be a version of the Bee Block.


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## Stephen J. Card

Looks interesting for sure....

BE BLOCKS:

Sheaves or blocks for the reef earings to render through; fitted on either side of the boom end


I can see the similarity for sure. Now to find a use for it in the boat. For as 'rendering' for mainsheets.... they would not want them... not fast enough to pay out or heave in. 

What would be in the boat that would be 'rendering' .... one stern end and the otehr at bow end. Cannot go back to 'rocking' as we can forget that.

Stephen


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## Mad Landsman

Very good picture found by Nick - I think that they are just shown in convention and not actual because the horizontal chock is just that and does not align with the planking.

Bee blocks - Some connection with sailing, found on booms and spars aren't they ? Normally in pairs ?


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## Nick Balls

These bee blocks are found on carling boards of a half decker sailing boat to allow the sheet to fairlead from the clew to the final position (thro' the coaming) Its interesting BUT the fittings on the larger Titanic boats are at each end arranged on opposite sides. This would rule out a sheet lead. The drawing I found was from an article about the disengaging gear http://titanic-model.com/articles/modeling_articles/Murrays Disengaging Gear article.pdf
As has been said they are only modern outline drawings but clearly indicate they did exist for a specific purpose. 

I just starting to think about what would be stowed across the boat at an Angle (the two fittings are diagonally opposite each other) Looking at the earlier picture of the Megantic boat I'm wondering where they stowed the boom that spans the two davits. If that was in the boat it would have to be diagonally placed so as to avoid the two lifting points (and also the clamps for the strong back (Cover)


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## Duncan112

Nick, Stephen, look who the author of the article was, we may end up chasing our tails over this - scholarly but is it right?


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## Mad Landsman

Smythe has 'Bee Blocks' on the end of the bowsprit to attach rigging.

Maybe like the wings of a bee when in pair and positioned as said ?

Also - so the two pictures we have of the mystery chocks are from the same source..... who does not seem to have honored us with his erudition for over 24 hours now.


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## Nick Balls

Yep I had noticed that..............but it's a good thread, got everyone raking through the old books and manuals. Will we ever get the answer?


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## Stephen J. Card

MURPHY'S & BEE BOCK DISENGAGING HOOKS FOR LIFEBOATS
OBSERVERS BOOK OF BAD IDEAS


Could work... either ends of the boat. Needs two people yes, but safer than mangling your hands when letting go the fall blocks.

The horizontal chock just to sit the handle. Might need the extra line just to get a bit of a pull!


Stephen


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## Mad Landsman

Stephen J. Card said:


> MURPHY'S & BEE BOCK DISENGAGING HOOKS FOR LIFEBOATS
> OBSERVERS BOOK OF BAD IDEAS
> 
> Stephen


Excellent! Not quite up there with a certain Mr Robinson - needs more things for that. (Jester)


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## Dickyboy

Nick Balls said:


> Only the largest boats had these fittings: looking at online pictures of all the boats I see that they seem to be fitted in the following fashion One set on starboard bow and One set on Port quarter. I can't see any variation in this?
> Looking at the attached picture of a similar period boat I see a short line on the port quarter (marked) What is it? Looks like a lizard line with block?


Looks like a rowlock to me, stowed as an Irish Pennant.


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## Dickyboy

Anything fitted on one side of the bow, and the opposite side of the quarter makes me think towing. A line of lifeboats, adrift, would attempt to stick together, and to keep them in line for towing on mass, each would need to be secured Stbd Bow to Port Quarter, or visa versa, and a stanchion rigged in the vertical above the gunwale without fairleads, would be required. Assuming the Lug is strong enough of course. Horizontal one for stowing said stanchion when not in use.


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## Stephen J. Card

Another MURPHY's PATENT 'SMOKO' STEERING GEAR


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## Stephen J. Card

Dickyboy said:


> Looks like a rowlock to me, stowed as an Irish Pennant.



Ouch! White Star. Tisk, tisk!


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## Nick Balls

Brilliant Steven!


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## Nick Balls

The towing idea had crossed my line, There is film footage of lifeboat trials showing the boats being towed in a line around the same era. I also came across a reference to the use of an offset towing line by the simple expedidnt of using the first rowlock as a fairlead......all good ideas.
Stephen the drawings of the fully detailed Murray gear are on one of my previous posts, as a link to some other Titanic nut, and while your drawing is inventive it is not how it was. The Mug and *** rest idea at present seems the most plausible!
I'm still looking!!


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## Stephen J. Card

Dickyboy said:


> Anything fitted on one side of the bow, and the opposite side of the quarter makes me think towing. A line of lifeboats, adrift, would attempt to stick together, and to keep them in line for towing on mass, each would need to be secured Stbd Bow to Port Quarter, or visa versa, and a stanchion rigged in the vertical above the gunwale without fairleads, would be required. Assuming the Lug is strong enough of course. Horizontal one for stowing said stanchion when not in use.





Most interesting is that it seems that the 'thwarts' were definitely multi-purpose fittings.... seating, lockers beneath, clamp for mast, compass fixed onto at last thwart, for carrying anchors etc etc. 

Also interesting... rarely do you see cleats or fairleads in old type boats. Possibly a hinderance than a help.


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## Stephen J. Card

Well, we found a pair of lizards.

Only problem is that they were on MEGANTIC's old radial davits, compared with the liffing davits fitted on TITANIC.


The drawing and notes of the disengaging gear are excellent of course by Mr Read. Only problem is the two 'wooden chocks' are taken from a photo.... not from a builder's boat plan. The drawing seems to imply that the chocks were a part of the engaging. Perhaps, perhaps not.


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## Dickyboy

Stephen J. Card said:


> Ouch! White Star. Tisk, tisk!


What's a little Irish Pennant when you've just lost the Titanic? (Jester)


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## Stephen J. Card

Dickyboy said:


> What's a little Irish Pennant when you've just lost the Titanic? (Jester)




The pennant was attached to the canvas drogue (sea anchor)... chilling in the sea full of beers![=P]


Oh... the lizard hang over the side.... very untidy seamanship... and make a bloody noise all night!


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## bpread

Gentlemen:
For the duration of this discussion I'm going to sit on the sidelines and observe. I'll be happy to answer any questions relating to Titanic or her boats and equipment. Just as a point of clarification, there was no relation of these structures to the Murray's disengaging gear. There was a lever amidships attached to one of the thwarts which when thrown over pulled chains which simultaneously opened the disengaging gear at both ends. Also, I have no vested interest in any theory about these structures. I just put forth a theory based on the locations of the structures which I thought was logical but which has been judged as unsound. My only pursuit is the truth. Here's hoping it will be found.
Regards,
Bob Read


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## bpread

*New Evidence*

I am in receipt of new evidence in this mystery. There was doubt about the disposition of the horizontal object. Did it have a hole through it or was it solid? The answer appears to be neither. Attached is a photo of a recovered lifeboat from SS Nomadic (1911) which was also built by Harland and Wolff. It was also unclear from previous photos of Nomadic's lifeboat what the disposition of the horizontal member was. Now we can see in the photo that rather than a round hole that it was a relatively narrow slot. This is bound to change a lot of thinking on the identification of these objects and their function but I wanted to add this to the discussion.
Regards,
Bob Read


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## Nick Balls

Bee block arrangement. It would have had a sheeve and the vertical block a pin so that it's design is as a fairlead that can be made up to the belaying pin. The rope would have come from above the fitting and through 90 Deg to the pin. 
The reason remains a mystery. These fittings were always on opposite sides to each other, one on bow one on stern. Had they been both on the same side I would be thinking lizard arrangements as per post No. 102 in the RN type set up with vertical preventers attached to the ships side. This however is clearly NOT the case.


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