# Manchester Ship Canal Pilots



## BosunsMate

My neighbour thinks his great grandfather was a canal pilot. Does anyone know if there is an archive listing all the pilots?


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## john richards

Bosunsmate, I remember a book in the local library titled " No tides to Stem" had lists of the old canal pilots ? maybe. cheers John Richards.


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## Trader

*Canal pilots*



john richards said:


> Bosunsmate, I remember a book in the local library titled " No tides to Stem" had lists of the old canal pilots ? maybe. cheers John Richards.


I have got that book somewhere, I shall have to dig it out.

Alec.


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## BosunsMate

*Manchester Ship Canal Pilot*

Many thanks.
The surname name I am looking for is: PACKWOOD, Harman or Reginald.

Ron


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## Trader

*Packwood.*



BosunsMate said:


> Many thanks.
> The surname name I am looking for is: PACKWOOD, Harman or Reginald.
> 
> Ron


Hello Ron,

I found my book and there is a list of pilots in it from when the canal first opened in 1896 and none of the above names appear in it. The book only goes as far as 1923 and I believe there was a second volume that came out later so maybe the names could be in that one.

Interestingly I know of the name Packwood. Packwood and Sons were boatmen at Manchester Docks ie. they tied the ships up. Before I went to sea I worked in a shipping agents office in Manchester and handled all the invoices from Packwoods. Mr. Packwoods daughter handled all his paper work, she also had a Ladies hairdressers on Trafford Road, Salford near the docks. I often took the invoices down to her salon with the cheques for her to receipt for me. I was only a kid, sixteen, and she must have thought that I was a bit of a nuisance as I would turn up with all the invoices whilst she was in the middle of doing a perm. She always gave me a cup of tea though.(Jester).

Alec.


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## BosunsMate

*Manchester Ship Canal Pilot*

Many thanks for the info Alec. I will have to see what my neighbour has to say when get back from his holiday.
Ron


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## Mry

Trader said:


> I have got that book somewhere, I shall have to dig it out.
> 
> Alec.


Hi Alec, i know this is an old thread but wondered if you still have a copy of this book?

I,m looking for a man who possible pilot on the Manchester ship canal during the very early years of the canal opening? 
Named of James Mather, born Scotland. 

Mry


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## sam2182sw

Hi Lads I worked with a Manchester ship pilot in GAZAN I wonder if he is still on the go His name was ANDREW WATTS sam2182sw


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## Farmer John

The canal was in use again this week, the Duisberg delivered 2 silos to Trafford docks, it was more of a barge really but of considerable length. This must be a good way to deliver big chunks of stuff to the city centre.

https://www.facebook.com/bbcradiomanchester/videos/10154517096644965/

The place does look forlorn.


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## Trader

Mry said:


> Hi Alec, i know this is an old thread but wondered if you still have a copy of this book?
> 
> I,m looking for a man who possible pilot on the Manchester ship canal during the very early years of the canal opening?
> Named of James Mather, born Scotland.
> 
> Mry


Hi Mry, I have sent you a couple of Private Messages but I don't think you may have received them as they don't appear in my "sent" box I must be doing something wrong.
Here is the gist of the messages that I sent: "James Mather does not appear in the list of General Licences First class & Second class. Most of the pilots came from the Merseyside area, Liverpool, Birkenhead, Runcorn etc. with a few from Manchester. There were three Glaswegians with Pilotage Certificates......Andrew Fraser, Alex Blair and Duncan Kerr. I don't know what the difference was between General Licences and Pilotage Certificates. Hope this helps you.

Regards.................Alec Sheldon.


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## Barrie Youde

It is interesting to hear of Pilotage Certificates on the Canal. 

During the currency of the 1913 Pilotage Act (i.e. until 1988), pilotage on the canal was voluntary and therefore Certificates (i.e. pilotage exemption certificates) did not apply - because there was nothing to be exempted from. The law prohibited the imposition of compulsory pilotage in any dock, lock or enclosed waterway; and thus pilotage in Liverpool Docks was also voluntary at the time.

Mysterious indeed!

Am not sure of the position pre-1913, i.e. in the very early years of the canal, but suspect that it was something very similar.


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## Trader

Barrie Youde said:


> It is interesting to hear of Pilotage Certificates on the Canal.
> 
> During the currency of the 1913 Pilotage Act (i.e. until 1988), pilotage on the canal was voluntary and therefore Certificates (i.e. pilotage exemption certificates) did not apply - because there was nothing to be exempted from. The law prohibited the imposition of compulsory pilotage in any dock, lock or enclosed waterway; and thus pilotage in Liverpool Docks was also voluntary at the time.
> 
> Mysterious indeed!
> 
> Am not sure of the position pre-1913, i.e. in the very early years of the canal, but suspect that it was something very similar.



Barrie, the list of pilots, taken from the book I have "No Tides to Stem", was compiled on 1st. Dec. 1895. Here is a quote from the SCHEDULE, Bye-Law No.3........"Pilotage upon the Canal is not compulsory, but no pilot, except qualified and licensed as hereinafter mentioned, shall be permitted to navigate, conduct, or move any vessel within the Canal, Docks, and Basins of the Company".....

Regards.


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## Barrie Youde

#12 

Many thanks, Trader.

Quite plainly, that would not prevent a shipmaster from conducting his own pilotage. 

Why not? Because no man can be both a shipmaster and a pilot at one and the same time.

The Merchant Shipping Act of 1894 defines a pilot as being "A person not belonging to a ship who has the conduct thereof". Plainly, any shipmaster belongs to his ship and cannot therefore at the same time be a pilot as defined by the Act. The point was determined in Grimsby Magistrates' Court in 1992, in the case of the Anna Merryl, by virtue of precisely the same statutory definition, which applies to the present day.

As to the difference between a pilotage licence and a pilotage certificate, an unrestricted licence allows a holder to offer his services to any ship, whereas a certificate is only ever granted in respect of either one ship or a restricted class of ships (usually identified by name). The essence of a certificate is that it exempts a holder from the obligation to employ a licensed pilot in a compulsory pilotage area. Where there is no compulsory pilotage, there is no pilotage to be exempted from; and therefore no cause to grant a certificate.


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## jlsuk

*At least 3 volumes available*

Just idling through the forum and spotting this.

A quick look on Amazon shows at least three volumes of this title are available - at least two at 'silly' prices .... in the pence rather than pounds (OK - plus postage)

Not sure how you determine which volume cover what years - but definitely worth a punt I would think.

Good Luck

John


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## Packers1982

*Packwood*



BosunsMate said:


> Many thanks.
> The surname name I am looking for is: PACKWOOD, Harman or Reginald.
> 
> Ron


Hi, this will be my family tree Packwood.
My dad Barry John Packwood, his brother Geoffrey Stuart Packwood.
There dad (my Grandad) Harrold John Packwood. Boatmen at Manchester Docks.
I know this thread is many years out of date, but just stumbled across it via Google while researching family history.
Thanks, Greg Packwood.


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## Packers1982

*Packwood*



Trader said:


> Hello Ron,
> 
> I found my book and there is a list of pilots in it from when the canal first opened in 1896 and none of the above names appear in it. The book only goes as far as 1923 and I believe there was a second volume that came out later so maybe the names could be in that one.
> 
> Interestingly I know of the name Packwood. Packwood and Sons were boatmen at Manchester Docks ie. they tied the ships up. Before I went to sea I worked in a shipping agents office in Manchester and handled all the invoices from Packwoods. Mr. Packwoods daughter handled all his paper work, she also had a Ladies hairdressers on Trafford Road, Salford near the docks. I often took the invoices down to her salon with the cheques for her to receipt for me. I was only a kid, sixteen, and she must have thought that I was a bit of a nuisance as I would turn up with all the invoices whilst she was in the middle of doing a perm. She always gave me a cup of tea though.(Jester).
> 
> Alec.


Hi Alec, this will be my family tree Packwood.

My dad Barry John Packwood, his brother Geoffrey Stuart Packwood.

There dad (my Grandad) Harrold John Packwood. Boatmen at Manchester Docks.

I know this thread is many years out of date, but just stumbled across it via Google while researching family history. It was to nice read 

The lady who handled all his paper work, who also had a Ladies hairdressers on Trafford Road, will likly have been Harrolds sister Edna, as he only had 2x sons.

Thanks, Greg Packwood.


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