# Two dead after cruiser capsizes ( BBC )



## Gavin Gait (Aug 14, 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/7109495.stm


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

I dont know the full story behind this, whether or not the crew of the cruiser were qualified in any way, but if they were not, or even if they were, does this tragedy not drive home the need for some control over private boat owners and their actions.

I know that I shall bring down on my head all kinds of retribution about peoples rights, but I make no apologies for attempting to prevent further useless loss of life.

As a person dedicated to working towards saving lives, I urge some kind of control be imposed asap. This is not I hasten to add ' emotional rubbish on the back of an accident ' but common sense.

Chris.


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## Solan (Jan 7, 2007)

I must agree with what Chris says on this. I am a private boat owner (with years of professional seagoing experience behind me) and I do value my freedom to make decisions. However unless harbours can be "Declared Closed" during extermely bad weather conditions, it is hard to see how someone can actually be prevented from putting to sea. There are very many ways of ascertaining sea conditions,from the internet to the mark1 eyeball,but no real way of forcing people to be sensible. My sympathies go to the relatives of the victims of this tragic accident


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Chris, I don't know about the qualifications of the crew either, but I have been asking for some sort of test before people take a boat out, just like we have to drive a car.

I say this because I saw so many needless deaths before I retired due to not knowing what they were doing. We never seem to learn by others mistakes.

David


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## Sarky Cut (Oct 11, 2007)

*Yachtie types*

hi Pompey Fan, we live in area where this sort of thing happens all the time.
Last summer at night boat travelling east in the Solent hit an unlit bouy.
Rib hits navigation mark. The list is endless, these are captains of industry and professional people in other branches. If they take risks like this with their lives and other peoples why should we be surprised when debacles like Northern Rock happen.

I honestly think that some of these cowboys think they can walk on water.


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## John Cassels (Sep 29, 2005)

Santos said:


> I dont know the full story behind this, whether or not the crew of the cruiser were qualified in any way, but if they were not, or even if they were, does this tragedy not drive home the need for some control over private boat owners and their actions.
> 
> I know that I shall bring down on my head all kinds of retribution about peoples rights, but I make no apologies for attempting to prevent further useless loss of life.
> 
> ...


Guess you didn't follow the thread started on August 16th. on this subject !.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Hi Sarky Cut

Most of the people I dealt with for 20 years at autopsy here on the Isle of Wight before I retired were not so much taking risks, but had no idea how to handle a boat, be it a speed boat or whatever. I suppose they were taking risks taking a boat out knowing they had no idea how to handle it, but from our point of view, every death was avoidable be it recklessness, stupidity, not knowing how to handle a boat, rules of the sea, not knowing the area or whatever.

And yes, those people who took that Rib out from Cowes heading for Gosport were down to pure incompetence. The police were powerless to stop them despite trying. I think new laws will stop people who are deemed to be drunk taking a boat out. But we still need laws to stop people taking boats out if not competent to do so even when sober.

Yes, it happens all the time, but it shouldn't do. 

John 

I know there is another thread on this but we can never talk about it enough while people are making avoidable errors. Not understanding the tides, strong currents especially when the tide changes, sudden change in weather, knowing how to handle a boat, whatever size, knowing the rules of the sea and so on. All these things were a factor on the needless deaths that I personally dealt with along with colleagues at autopsy here on the Isle of Wight.

I remember the call out. Having to prepare a child for example for parents to indentify before the autopsy. Hearing their screams of sheer grief, blaming themselves for not understanding how dangerous the sea was, for letting him do this or that. Most of these tragic sea accidents was in the summer time, holidaymakers. But not always, some locals were just as guilty. One local chap was skiing behind a speeboat. He may well have been a competent skier but the person driving the speedboat certainly was not. He steered between a tug towing a vessel. The speeboat missed the towing wire, but the skiier didn't. It was my job to reconstruct a body after autopsy as well as getting them ready for viewing or ID before autopsy. I certainly had my work cut out with the skiier?!.

No, we can never have too many threads when we have these annual accidents on our coasts that could so easily be avoided.

Yes, it would mean more rules and regulations, something we all hate. But what price do we put on the one and only life we get?!.

David


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

John,

I did follow the thread thank you, and on it I advocated controls on private boats but got shot down and virtually accused of contravening boaters rights.

I make no apologies for raising the matter again, if not to try and convince those dissenters of controls to see the wasteful loss of life that will continue to occur whilst boaters are allowed to do what they like when they like. Unfortunately I dont think I will ever run out of examples to keep raising.

There is also the very serious matter of those tasked with the rescue of these people and the dangers they are put in. They are just as likely to lose their lives and often do as a result of so called " boaters rights ". 

We cannot drive a car, or bus, or taxi nor fly a plane without some kind of qualification what makes small boat owners different, are they born with these skills and therefore exempt from control, a great number obviously think they are, but they are certainly not and should be liable for their actions.

To my mind, if an unqualified boater is found responsibe for a death or accident and lack of knowledge and skill is the cause, then they should be prosecuted and face the consequences, perhaps then they will seek professional instruction which hopefully will lead towards stopping this totally wasteful and unnecessary loss of life.


Chris.


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## JoK (Nov 12, 2006)

> There is also the very serious matter of those tasked with the rescue of these people and the dangers they are put in. They are just as likely to lose their lives and often do as a result of so called " boaters rights


Exactly!!


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## John Cassels (Sep 29, 2005)

Chris , David you are of course both correct in bringing the matter to the
forefront again , it was Chris's remark re retribution that made me realise
that we can discuss the subject all we want but as long as political will and
boaters common sense is lacking , that's all that will happen.

As you know , I cruise around the Delta area over here as much as I can.
I cannot comment on behaviour around UK waters apart from what I read 
on SN but it is obvious that this sort of thing is overall.

I took our cruise yacht out 2 weeks ago to shake the sails out ready for winter storage. At one point , I was overtaken by one of these tupperware
monstrosities , all engine and not much else , which must have been doing well
in excess of 35 kph. Two young children were sitting up forward with their
legs dangling over the side. There was a good chop on the water with lots
of inland commercial traffic about. If whoever was driving that boat had hit
a wash the wrong way, then these kids would have been lucky to get away
with only broken legs.

It does get frustrating to see the same madness year in,year out. Never
mind boater's rights , it's for everyone's safety. Why not have a test before
being allowed to control a boat. A 15 meter steel cruiser will kill just as
efficiently as a 3 meter mini cooper.

Excuse me getting over dramatic but I think you know what I'm trying to say.


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## Gavin Gait (Aug 14, 2005)

http://www.maib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/Last_Call_Synopsis.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7482683.stm


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## Geoff_E (Nov 24, 2006)

I'm not sure that euphemisms such as "ill conceived" advance the case at all. 

It would have have served as a better warning to have identified them "criminally stupid" (for which other nautical phrases might be substituted!). However, in this gloriously politically correct age that might have upset somebody's feelings!


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

There were 3 people killed in this accident, the third person a Female who was the Partner of one of the men. This incident highlights a number of matters in regards to boating, although the owner of the boat had fished out of the River Tees for a number of years he had no formal boat handling qualifications as indeed a lot of inshore fisherman do not have whether they are Full-time or Part-time. The boat itself was American and did not comply with C.E. build or as indicted the European Regulations and therefore should not have been taken to sea at all ( that really is the Criminal offence). Due to the value of the Pound against the Dollar American built boats are looking to be good value however they do not comply with European Regulations and as indicated need to be inspected which of course cost's more money. They appeared to have put to sea without a European spec T/R radio not even a hand held one as the female involved tried to raise the Coastguard by her mobile before she was also swept overboard. Last and most important Whitby is a very awkward Port to get in and out of even in the best of weather and if you do not know the approach it is sometimes better (if you can) to follow a local boat. There is no doubt the Rescue Services could see what was going to happen and did their best to prevent it and that is all credit to them but it appears that the Owner was determined to get the boat to the River Tees after they had been delayed in Whitby previously.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

The report echoes everything we have said about people taking boats out without qualifications. Had they been qualified, they would have almost certainly not gone. Year after year people die needlessly. I must sound like a broken record saying the same thing year after year after yet another avoidable disaster. Nobody goes out to kill themselves. It is purely and simply down to the fact that they do not understand the power of the sea, the rules of the sea or how to handle a boat, or all the lot thrown in.

Until we stop people taking boats out unless they can prove they are competent sailors we will never prevent such avoidable deaths and putting rescue services at risk. But in this crazy PC age that will never happen. So get the sympathy cards ready for the next needless death at sea. School holidays are coming soon, and so will more tragic stories.

David


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

Pompeyfan.
I think most seafarers that understand the vagaries of the sea will agree with you as I most certainly do. I think it needs to go further than this and the boats checked and approved as fit for seagoing. I remember years ago at Harwich a local fisherman had a boat built by a local boat builder, the first trip he madee he came back with the boat in a sinking condition. This was a very competent and experienced seaman. To come in after a catch in that condition would seem that the boat did not have suffficient reserve buoyancy. A poorly designed boat in the hands of the most competent of seafarers is still a death trap. Robert


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

Was it the boat or was it the stupidity of the man and the weather,I think it was the latter two. Even the best made boat would not of helped them.

John.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

It was everything, but of course the decision to put to sea starts and in this case ends with the "Skipper" whether it 's a little boat or the "Riverdance", all it needed was a walk to the end of the jetty to be able to see the waves rolling in through the entrance of the North facing approach with a strong North wind behind them. It can be done, but it needs a powerful twin engine boat like the Lifeboat to accomplish it safely as it is not a straightforward approach as you have to head towards the side of the South Pier before making an alteration of course to get out of the actual entrance, if you can't turn to the new heading you either get swept into the side of the jetty or rolled over as initially you are approaching the waves rolling in at an angle. As far as certification is concerned of course some sort of "Driving Test" should be in place and if the fee's for the "test" were given to the R.N.L.I. I think most probably new boaters would go along with it but it is more than likely that the fee would disappear into the Government "Coffers" for M.P's expenses and not back into the marine world for improvements.


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## surfaceblow (Jan 16, 2008)

Here in the States the Coast Guard Auxiliary provides safety checks, boating courses, and other assistance to the Coast Guard. The school I went to required you have a US Coast Guard Safe Boating card before taking out any of the schools boats. It did not matter if you were a deck or engineer no card no boat.

http://nws.cgaux.org/visitors/pe_visitor/index.html


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## Nairda59 (Jul 6, 2005)

To the many of us who have said the same thing year after year, its not only sad but disappointing as well.
There are nearly as many people on the road with a license that I wouldnt trust with my car as I suspect there would be, if a license was required at sea, if I were stupid enough to trust them with my boat.
Which I'm not about to do.
Its a subject very very unlikely to come up on a politicians radar - so we can continue raising the point on here for evermore.
If the person in charge has been given warning or notice, then I would prohibit any rescue services risking their lives. I would ensure that this position was clearly stated to all boat owners and users.
What decision they then take would be entirely up to them.


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

I think the rescue service and Coastguard in the states have started charging for the rescue of people. A case in point a millionaire went missing in the Nevada dessert a few months ago,never found him or his plane, so now they are planning to charge his widow for the rescue aircraft used in the hunt.

John


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

I understand that many UK flagged passenger vessels, particularly high speed ferries, are only allowed to sail in certain conditions of significant wave height. It beggars belief that MCA will prevent a large certified passenger vessel with a fully qualified crew to leave harbour while allowing those in a twenty foot, twenty year old boat with possible dodgy engine & no LSA equipment to leave the harbour in horrendous, if not suicidal, conditions without a murmer. This then puts the lives of our many brave lifeboatmen & others of the merchant, fishing and naval services at personal risk. 
I rest my case.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Tony, I think that the Coastguard expected him to have the sense to turn about when he saw the wave conditions rather than carry on, I personally like the American Coastguard set up and the powers they have at their disposal.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Tony Breach said:


> I understand that many UK flagged passenger vessels, particularly high speed ferries, are only allowed to sail in certain conditions of significant wave height. It beggars belief that MCA will prevent a large certified passenger vessel with a fully qualified crew to leave harbour while allowing those in a twenty foot, twenty year old boat with possible dodgy engine & no LSA equipment to leave the harbour in horrendous, if not suicidal, conditions without a murmer. This then puts the lives of our many brave lifeboatmen & others of the merchant, fishing and naval services at personal risk.
> I rest my case.


Seems like there is one rule for commercial craft and another for pleasure?.

David


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

From purely an operational point of view and in defence of the MCA ( Coastguard ) it would be very difficult, nigh impossible within our present laws to physically prevent a privately owned pleasure craft from sailing.

There is no law at the moment which could be used to stop someone in a private yacht / cruiser from sailing in bad weather conditions, the only hope being to persuade the person in charge that to sail would be stupid and dangerous.

Commercially there is a big difference and powers do exist to prosecute any Company which it can be proved, endangered crews and passengers. 

These powers do not exist with private craft unless of course someone takes out a Private Prosecution, which by virtue of such incidents is always after the event and sadly, loss of life.

What do we do ? the formation of a maritime police force around our shores, empowed to deal with such matters, whilst desirable, is surely impossible whilst the present Police Forces find great difficulty in managing their present areas and responsibilities and obtaining adequate funding from this present Government.

Education ( which the RNLI is currently promoting in ' Sea Safety ' ) is a start and which hopefully will reach the ears and minds of sensible boaters. However you will, I am afraid, always have the ' I know better's ', the ' I dont give a Sh1t's ', the 'I've a right's' and the ' drink fuelled more money than sense brigade who dont know the bow from the stern but are good drivers in their opinion '

What do we do with them as they form the biggest threat to life around our coasts. 

We make them more responsible for their actions and we prosecute them relentlessly until they get the message.

I make no apologies for this but I will not stand by and see Lifeboat Crews and Emergency Services personnel's lives put at risk by these morons. 

I wait however, not holding my breath, for a government to come along and actually tackle this problem, oh hell, there goes a squadron of pigs overhead.

Chris.


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

I also like the USCG & the way they police US waters. I lived there for 11 years & had Power Squadron certification, paid my annual boat property tax & had membership of vessel assist. The USCG regulations had to be follwed & one could have their boat & equipment inspected at any time. Every port area was covered by a Captain of the Port & if he decreed that the port was closed - it was closed. Somebody at Whitby should have had that authority.


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## Gavin Gait (Aug 14, 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/7509511.stm


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## Chouan (Apr 20, 2006)

This is exactly the opposite of "PC" Britain. The "Nanny State" that is often blamed on the "PC Brigade" that so many of our membership blame for everything would surely, by principle, seek to control the Elf and Safety of sea users. The fact that people are free to use the sea is evidence that the "PC Brigade" are not in control and that it is the libertarians who are in control here, ie those who are diametrically opposed to everything that PC stands for.
I agree with the majority here, there must be regulation of boats and sea users, for want of a better expression, to protect them, and others, from their own stupidity, if and where necessary. This would include, I suggest, single handed yachtsmen as well.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Chouan

I can certainly see where you are coming from, but two wrongs do not make a right. How can a child for example be banned from playing conkers in case they get injured, but can take an inflatable out for example at the seaside. The world has gone completely mad, potty PC rules for something totally innocent, but allowing something far more dangerous. Even Esther Ranson said the other day that the PC brigade had gone too far, so it is not only we humble seafarers saying it?!.

The coroner would have had little choice but record an accidental verdict if these people had not heard the radio warnings. Relatives will be hoping that lessons will be learned, but sadly lessons will not be learned because I have seen so many cases just like this spanning many years. Recommendations are made by all those involved, but fall on deaf ears. When you need the PC brigade they are not there being far more interested in something quite petty than a serious situation like this.

And believe me, I know the difference between serious and petty incidents having been directly involved in thousands of autopsies some from the sea totally needless and avoidable had regulations been in force. I would not put single handed yachtsmen in that category. They are all professionals, but I do understand those who criticise them, and they understand it as well. 

David


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

This incident is the much discussed Whitby tragedy where three people died not two, if you have seen any T.V. coverage you will notice how calm it is in the inner Harbour area compared to the sea state within the outer Harbour Entrance because of the way the Piers are "set". The Coroner stated that three issue's were vital, 1)Lifejackets
2) V.H.F. Radio
3) The Crews risk perception
The Last one No3 is interesting, could it be said that the Skipper of the "Riverdance" lacked risk perception and he is a "Professional"? Or is it this new excuse that has been dredged up which begins with the word Perfect, Perfect Storm, Perfect Wave, Perfect, etc,etc, I can understand a large wave that seems to come from "nowhere" but the word perfect is not what I would call it.


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