# Radio Officers' Uniform Braid



## Ron Stringer

Some time ago I was asked when the change took place from 'wavy line' braid to straight braid on a green mounting. I looked for a leaflet that Marconi Marine produced, but of course couldn't find it.

Today I was looking for something else entirely and what dropped out of an old 'Marconi Mariner' house magazine? Yes the leaflet with the new braid arrangements. The do***ent was issued with the Jan-Feb 1964 issue of the magazine but it gives no implementation date for the change.

I have posted 3 scanned pictures of the 3 pages of the leaflet in the Marine Radio, Navaids and Electronics section of the Gallery.


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## Shipbuilder

Ron,
Yes, it was in 1964. I remember still having the zig zags and when the new straight ones with green backing came in, I saw that not having had 3 years on articles, I should really have gone down to one with diamond, so ignored the order! Kept my jacket in the wardrobe when in UK in case it was spotted by the shore staff (AEI). Looking back, I doubt they would have cared anyway! Shortly after, I got the three years in and had it changed to two straight ones with diamond between whilst on leave. Anyway, Marconi took us over, so I never went back, but joined B & C and had to take off my two straights and diamond, never having worn them at all! Went immediately to two straight and a curl in the top one. However, after three or four months in RICHMOND CASTLE (Fast Fruit Freighter, 1944 vintage) I was put in TRANSVAAL CASTLE as 4th (after 4 years at sea) and had to take off the two new ones and go down to half stripe! Not that I minded all that much. No more accounts to do - no more fixing radars, or being required off watch for a million other tasks, or anything else for that matter. Just kept a watch and then enjoyed the unacustomed 8 hours off! Was three years before I even made it to 3rd and got one full stripe again! Oh what happy years. 
Bob


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## briangdav

*Strait Braid*

Joined Marconi Marine in July 1966 and strait braid was in use.



Ron Stringer said:


> Some time ago I was asked when the change took place from 'wavy line' braid to straight braid on a green mounting. I looked for a leaflet that Marconi Marine produced, but of course couldn't find it.
> 
> Today I was looking for something else entirely and what dropped out of an old 'Marconi Mariner' house magazine? Yes the leaflet with the new braid arrangements. The do***ent was issued with the Jan-Feb 1964 issue of the magazine but it gives no implementation date for the change.
> 
> I have posted 3 scanned pictures of the 3 pages of the leaflet in the Marine Radio, Navaids and Electronics section of the Gallery.


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## Troppo

Interesting.

Did you know that the diamond actually meant that you had a "board of trade" qualification - i.e. a certificate.

So, in theory, Marconi was wrong (shock, horror!) using the diamond as a rank device.

All R/O's should have had the diamond, with the amount of stripes denoting the 'rank'.

I know some companies (P and O, etc) didn't use the diamond.

Some used the naval executive curl, and some (the RFA) used the diamond above the stripes in a similar way to the navy.


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## ian fears

I thought the diamond meant you were in charge of the station pretty sure it did in the late sixties early seventies , but been wrong before !lol


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## Troppo

We always wore the diamond in Australia, as did the mates and engineers.

The 5th engineers with only "Part A" (seconds ticket) normally wore half a diamond.


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## M29

Troppo said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Did you know that the diamond actually meant that you had a "board of trade" qualification - i.e. a certificate.
> 
> So, in theory, Marconi was wrong (shock, horror!) using the diamond as a rank device.
> 
> All R/O's should have had the diamond, with the amount of stripes denoting the 'rank'.
> 
> I know some companies (P and O, etc) didn't use the diamond.
> 
> Some used the naval executive curl, and some (the RFA) used the diamond above the stripes in a similar way to the navy.


I have to agree. Marconi as a Radio Company did not always comply with current MN braid standards. I always understood the diamond stood for being certificated, which is why many junior engineers did not have diamonds until they got their 2/E certs. The number of stripes denoted time served, so most direct emply R/O's on H8 ships, wore one or two stripes. On H24 ships, the senior R/O wore three stripes to denote his position. Most 3rd mates held 2/O certs so wore the diamond on a single stripe. The Deck officers always wore the number of stripes to denote their rank. Some of the masters I sailed with wore extra wide braid so their braid went nearly to the elbow!! 
Many companies had exceptions to the standard braid, ie P&O as already mentioned. I believe the strait braid on a green background for R/O's was already in being before Marconi changed over to it some time in the mid 60's

Best Wishes

Alan


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## Bill Greig

Hello All,
P & O as Junior R/O you had one stripe with green edge, R/O two stripes with green in the middle, senior R/O two and a half stripes. Nobody had any diamonds as we all wore epaulettes. Electricians also had the green edging.
On a recent cruise with Royal Carribbean, I was in a lift with one of the officers who's name badge informed me he was Electrical Officer but had no green edging. When I remarked on this he looked at me as if I was some sort of dinosaur and said "only Environmental Officer has green colour on his sleeve"
Regards
Bill


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## david.hopcroft

I have found a couple of old photos, which would seem to show the change from wavy to straight was 1963-4,

Left is March '63 when I bought my uniform before my first trip. Right is June 64' after my radar ticket. The green doesn't show very well though. I got as far as one and a half stripes.
David
+


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## sparkie2182

I believe the wavy's occasionally got confused with the Ch. Stewards zig-zags..........

If you know what i mean.


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## victormacmeldrew

*Radio Officer Rank insignia*

I just saw this and maybe I could help the discussion, if I am duplicating information, forgive me and put it down to age as I haven't checked the thread thoroughly. The first link shows the new braid and the regs on it and the second shows the first set of braid.

I always thought that Marconi were naughty using the diamond as rank distinction but they did it on both occasions.

http://www.radioofficers.com/forum

http://shw.zulfaag.fotopages.com/13614351/merchant-navy-ranks-and-insigniascirca-world-war-2.html

I found a better photo of the straight braid without the water damage in the middle but I'm at a loss as to where it is now.


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## Varley

I remember a poster at either Liverpool MimCo depot or Liverpool federation giving the BOT (ie not company) uniform standards - a copy of that would be fun to find. Having said that I don't remember what was on it but I do remember the custom should have been - number of rings - according to years operating. Diamond - only for R/O in charge. Most ignored the in-charge bit and some the years operating. If I remember correctly I wore my one ring and diamond until I had three years in.


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## david.hopcroft

Looking at my post #9 above, I don't remember being told of any regs at the outfitters. However, if you are the only RO on board then I suppose in theory you are 'in charge' !

David
+


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## trotterdotpom

My first uniform had a single ring with a diamond - Greenbergs had a list with it all on. I understood that the diamond meant you had a ticket - nothing to dfo with being in charge. I thought I got two rings after two years, but not sure about that. Waste of money anyway, hardly ever wore a uniform, just carted it about.

John T


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## Troppo

1 ring when I was a juniour, 2 after that.


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## Patagualino

Bill Greig said:


> Hello All,
> P & O as Junior R/O you had one stripe with green edge, R/O two stripes with green in the middle, senior R/O two and a half stripes. Nobody had any diamonds as we all wore epaulettes. Electricians also had the green edging.
> On a recent cruise with Royal Carribbean, I was in a lift with one of the officers who's name badge informed me he was Electrical Officer but had no green edging. When I remarked on this he looked at me as if I was some sort of dinosaur and said "only Environmental Officer has green colour on his sleeve"
> Regards
> Bill


Dear oh dear......Now green is _" Environmental Officer"_
Maybe we should stay away from such cruises.....us being dinosaurs and all!.....would not want to upset the status-quo in the officers "mess". ..or..."Brew Room" 
And that is what we have become: Glorified bus drivers.

Is it really so easy to move people & millions of $$$$ cargoes so cheaply, using cheap, slave-like labour?

Yes. Yes is the answer. We have moved on so little since Wilberforce. The crews of today are little better than the slaves of "old".
Do some digging on the WWW.....it's as clear as the history books tell us.

You want stuff from China.?... it will arrive as cheap as possible ......

As long as_ you don't care._......it will always be so.

Doubt this will be posted. Frankly.

But Cheers you all.
Steve.


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## mikeg

Dug them out from the bottom of a drawer


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## trotterdotpom

mikeg said:


> Dug them out from the bottom of a drawer


A bit gaudy, Mike. Up in Stottycake Land they'd make a pair of slippers out of them. 

John T


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## mikeg

Always thought they were a bit bright, sort of like an overdone Argentinians generals braid


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## Patagualino

I was told that it was one ring plus diamond (because you were qualified & certificated) (or certified?) for the first three years, ie, "Junior". Then 2 rings for the next 12 years, at which point you were considered senior enough to have three. 
I did 17 in total, but never bothered upgrading my uniform, as remarked by MikeG, a bit OTT for my taste! (And no inclination to 'invade' the Falklands!!!)


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## Bob Murdoch

R651400 said:


> My recollection BOT circa 1956...one ring for 3rd, two rings 2nd and two rings with central diamond 1st R/O..


In my day, 1958-1962, this was the usual in Marconi. When I went to N.Z,'s Union Company, everyone wore two wavy and a diamond, in fact that was actually issued by the company along with a set of buttons, epaulets and a company cap badge. Of course most of the Union Co r.o.s were ex-UK at that time, so just used the BOT standard they had before arriving in NZ
Dont like the photograph of the 'new' one. Gaudy is the word. (LOL)
Cheers Bob


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## Stephen J. Card

Patagualino said:


> Dear oh dear......Now green is _" Environmental Officer"
> Steve._


_


I believe green is still the correct colour for electrical officers and the envrionmental people wear a bright blue

Certainly this is the case with Holland America Line and Saga Shipping.

Stephen_


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## macrae

I still have my M.N. wavey double line gold braid uniform jacket in a wardrobe,a bit sad really,it's been for there now for over 40 years.


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## mikeg

macrae said:


> I still have my M.N. wavey double line gold braid uniform jacket in a wardrobe,a bit sad really,*it's been for there now for over 40 years.*


An' it don't seem a day too much. (Couldn't resist it)


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## Troppo

Stephen J. Card said:


> and the envrionmental people wear a bright blue



Pardon my ignorance, but what is an "environmental officer"??


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## Patagualino

"Ditto" to that! Mine gets an occasional airing for fancy dress (Not me, I hasten to add!)
Last time was to my brother in-law, he was posing (?) as a train guard on a special steam-train run from Concepcion down south to Valdivia & back.....have some photos somewhere. Although I bought the jacket in 1970, it still fits.....albeit a _bit_ tight round the six-pack stomach I now have. (I mean a stomach influenced by a six pack....or two)
Rgds..Steve.


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## Patagualino

Good question Troppo.....No doubt some imposition by the authorities supposedly to limit the detrimental effect of the planet caused by Cruise Ships (I would guess, as it was mentioned in relation to two cruise lines) ......but it would be interesting to know just what the duties of the Environmental Officer are......
Does one circulate amongst the passengers looking for miscreants throwing planet-damaging articles over the side?
Does one have power of arrest & to slap 'em in irons.....??? 
Could be a case of "Hey! I could do that!" for us otherwise redundant R/O's!
RGDS: Steve


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## Bill Greig

I know that on Royal Carribbean ships there is a very effective recycling plant, which processes all the dirty water used on board so that only "clean" water is pumped over the wall. Solid matter is also likewise crushed/mashed/incinerated, they certainly take it all very seriously. There will be some of our shipmates who will know far more about the processes involved than me. But I get the impression this is quite sophistocated equipment which requires specialised knowledge to operate it and maintain it. I was still surprised at the time about the green braid allocation though.
Regards
Bill


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## Troppo

Electricians always wore dark green.

We always wore light green.


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## Stephen J. Card

Troppo said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but what is an "environmental officer"??




On board Environmental Officer... usually a three striper (not stripper).... sometimes ex Chief Eng or Chief Officer... responsible for on board waste management and compliance


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## Troppo

Top job!

Not...


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## Patagualino

Sounds interesting (?).......I can see the need on cruise ships, 2,000 passengers + Crew....all that rich food & drink ......But what about the Livestock Carriers? Is the "Environmental Officer" also a three striper, Ex-Ch/Eng or Ch/Off? _Or will an Ex-Stable Lad do?_

Indeed Troppo, "Top Job......Not!"

RGDS/Steve


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## Mad Landsman

While on a Celebrity cruise ship (Same company as RCI) there were the usual 'enrichment lectures' - They had a series of four on the running of the ship:
One day Navigation, One Day Engineering, TWO days Environmental! 

I am fairly sure that the Environmental Officer had Green Distinction Cloth - Blue used to be Gunnery and I think I would have spotted that.

Part of the problem on 'American' ships, and those using US as a base is the very specific type of waste that they are allowed to put ashore - hence the complicated management systems.


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## Patagualino

Obviously there is a lot of money to be made from "rubbish" of any description. 
Think of the householder in Britain.....5 or even six different coloured bins.... whoever got the contract to supply those was on a Beano, eh? (I seem to recall they were German made.....Mmmm) 
RGDS Steve


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## Baulkham Hills

I have very fond memories of an Environment and Pollution at sea course when I was with P&O. I was selected because nobody wanted to do it on the ferry I sailed on. I was plucked of the ferry and did the 3 day course in some former stately home in the midlands. The best of food and wine was provided. The lectures were very interesting mostly relating to legal matters, a P&O cruise ship in the Caribbean was on video dumping garbage over the side and fined a huge sum by the USCG. Because the informers collected a bounty from the fine, there was some suggestion that it was a set up, certainly no faces could be seen from the video. After that straight back to the ferry and things went on as normal.


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## Norm

I was watching an old film on TV yesterday called "The Key" Trevor Howard, William Holden, Sophia Loren. Russell Waters played "Sparks" on the RN tug during the Battle of the Atlantic. Although the tug was designated HMS and crewed by RN and RNR personell, the radio officer was civilian with an MN cap badge and 2 wavy with diamonds stripes. Would this have been normal?


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## Troppo

No, if it was a commissioned vessel, they would have had RN communicators...


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## Norm

They had to maintain radio silence with only a listening watch.


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## Graham P Powell

Many years ago now, I saw the tug used in the filming of The Key in Portland Harbour. Was it HMS Warden or was that the name of the ship in the film?. 
One 2/R/O I sailed with did the sea trials of HMS Devonshire a guided missile destroyer. That had a civilian radio room when built . She carried numerous engineers and technicians to sort out the various problems but eventually
the Navy took the whole thing over. rgds
Graham powell


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## victormacmeldrew

Troppo said:


> No, if it was a commissioned vessel, they would have had RN communicators...


I wouldn't take that as 100% gospel in the middle of a World War. If the Navy took a ship into the service, the officers were offered to stay with the ship with an RNR commission under a T124 agreement. I'm not 100% conversant with the workings of the T124 agreement but it was qhite loose at times on how much officers became integrated with the RNR. The R/O who was there could easily be one of those people who was just trying not to put too much wear and tear on a new, expensive RNR uniform.

The most famous T124 agreements were HMS Jervis Bay, the Navy put Captain Fogerty Fagin in Command and the peacetime Master was commissioned as a Commander RNR under the T124 agreement. Other officers, including R/O's and pursers were also commissioned T124 and there is a well know photograph somewhere on the net showing them all in posh brand new RNR uniforms. That's not to say that they went straight after the photo to get into some old clobber which would, of course, their old MN uniforms.


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## Norm

Well..if I'd had the chance to swap my MN cap badge for a RN badge, I'd have got the old housewif out right away !!


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## trotterdotpom

All you had to do was take the shilling, Norm.

John T


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## Patagualino

The film "The Key" (William Holden, Trevor Howard & Sophia Loren, with Russell Waters as "Sparks") made in 1958 can be reviewed on www.imdb.com .
On that site, there is a comment regarding "Radio Silence" & asking why was it necessary: I made an answer there but I am sure further clarification would be welcome.
I have not seen the film , so I cannot comment as to the question of Uniforms & whether any or if all were RN or MN personnel. 
It would seem the film was well received & still much appreciated, indeed, there is a review there from an American Salvage tug Captain who said, & I quote:

_As a master (captain) of salvage tugs I can attest to the incredible reality of the shipboard scenes. I have seen no other film that rivals the scenes shot at sea for this film. I found the film riveting for both the action at sea, and the drama ashore..Trevor Howard is the perfect old salt, full of bravado, yet terrified....I was mesmerized to the end.
_

There is also a debate there as to Americans coming into WW2 before the USA actually did, (eg The William Holden character in this film) they did so illegally, apparently, at the risk of losing their citizenship ...... Which beggars the question if those of the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War were under the same threat?

So, thanks to a discussion on uniform braid.... I have found a film I am now on the lookout for.....
This is communication at its best! Thank you all!!!


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## sparkie2182

Ref American citizens joining the European struggle...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Squadrons

from an aviation viewpoint.


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