# Came across this the other day and it remi deck officers had to have a First Aid certificate before they were granted their mates and masters tickets'



## BosunsMate (May 9, 2011)




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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

Yes that was the case and you also had to have a lifeboat certificate too.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

First Aid At Sea
Ship Master's Medical Course
Merchant Navy Firefighting Course
Certificate of Efficiency as a Lifeboatman
Radar Observer
Radar Simulator

Any others?

.


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## loco (Dec 10, 2010)

EDH

Steering

Fire fighting two and four day.

Shipmaster's medical was not for 2/0 but C/O and Masters'. 2/O was only first aid.

As time went on, there were various navigational Electronic Aid (Decca, Loran, D/F, Omega, etc) certificates that had to be undertaken. These varied quickly in the 70s and 80s.

I'll go and get my certificates........

Martyn

Later;

Restricted R/T (according to my certificate, I had green hair........). Despite having a much higher grade certificate, my then employer insisted I did an RYA VHF in my later career.

Electronic Navigational Aids (for me this was for 2/O)., This was later replaced by NCC for C/O and Masters; NCC included theory and simulator training, including ARPA.

Survival at Sea (one of the first cadet classes to take this). A story of its own; as was the second time I did this as the whole department had to undertake it. I was the only one who had already done it.

For C/O and Master's, Certificate of watchkeeping and Service. Signed by each Master one sailed with.

DSC radio certificates-I did a restricted one, but the requirement for a candidate to hold a DSC certificate wasn't introduced until after I'd already got my CoCs.

Medical-evolved into the ENG1.

Lamp colour test; undertaken before I was allowed to join the Merchant navy as cadet. In theory, this was only taken once and was valid for your career; but I'm sure one of my fellow cadets at college had to do it just before taking Second Mate's and failed; the end of the deck officer career.

Eyesight test-only had a short validity (?) and had to be undertaken prior to entry into my cadetship, and just before each grade of exams. Later incorporated in ONC1 medicals, together with a hearing test.

ONC/OND gave exemptions from part of second Mates, but Higher Tech Diploma didn't for Mates.

If one was to be Mate, Master, 2/E or C/E on tankers, the relevant TASCO (Tanker Safety Course); petroleum, gas, and chemical. I did petroleum even though I was only third mate.

There may have been more, but these are what I could find quickly, and date to what was required in the late 70s/early 80s.

Martyn


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

loco said:


> =
> 
> ONC/OND gave exemptions from part of second Mates, but Higher Tech Diploma didn't for Mates.
> 
> Martyn



I sat the first ever ONC. Summer 1973. Failed! Was quite disappointed I found the whole class at GCNS had failed. Then later found that the whole ONC had failed! (We had all passed for Orals.)The examinations were 'faulty'. The college complained, but we were out of luck. Went on to complete my sea time so went up at for 2nd Mate's written. Had to do the orals again because the laps of time. Nuisance. One month before 2nd Mate's I went up and sat for Mate H.T. Th examiner asked why I was doing this ticket. I told him I was coming up for 2nd Mates and I just wanted some experience of the examination. He was happy with that. A month later the orals for 2nd Mate was a breeze.
Stephen


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## dudleyhorscroft (Oct 17, 2021)

According to my first Discharge Book, the British Seaman's Identity Card, The Merchant Navy Fire-Fighting Course, the Radar Simulator Course.
The vaccinations against smallpox, cholera, TAB and Yellow Fever.
A General Operator's Certificate,
Certificates for courses re Chemical Tanker Safety, Petroleum Tanker Safety and Liquefied Gas Tanker Safety.
No evidence of a Lifeboat Certificate (though I recall supervising some crew undergoing the exam while rowing up and down Royal Albert Dock), or a St John's Ambulance First Aid Certificate, though I do seem to remember being issued with a "Linen" Certificate.
And of course, my Certificate of Competency.


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## Pilot mac (Jun 28, 2005)

loco said:


> EDH
> 
> Steering
> 
> ...


I did a lantern test before going to sea but I'm sure I had to do another test before 2nd Mates. Can also remember eye tests for Mates and Masters but not as tricky as the lantern test!
Back in the day, at least the courses had some kind of relevance to the job. I had been a Pilot for 20 years before some newby in HR decided that I had to do a 'Manual Handling Course', I said that I didn't regularly do manual handling as part of my job but still had to do the course. Spent the morning learning how to safely lift a box of envelopes!


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## MMA (Feb 23, 2017)

Before I joined the MN I was examined by an opthalmic specialist to check my eyesight was 'up to the job'. After that it was the Board of Trade colour test before sea school and again before 2nd Mates but no more thereafter.

Ancillary courses in my day (1960s and 1970s) - some of which were a requirement if you wanted to get 2nd Mates, 1st Mates and Masters Certificates:

Merchant Shipping Regs Steering Certificate 1966
Merchant Navy Fire-Fighting Course 1966 (East Ham Fire Station)
Board of Trade Certificate Of Efficiency As Lifeboatman 1968
Board of Trade Certificate Of Qualification As an Efficient Deck Hand 1968
Postmaster General Restricted Certificate of Competence in Radiotelephony 1968
St John's Ambulance Association First aid Certificate 1969
Board of Trade Radar Observer Certificate 1970
City of London Polytechnic Gyro Compass Certificate 1972
Department of Trade & Industry First Aid Certicate 1972
City of London Polytechnic/DTI Radar Simulator Certificate 1974
Department of Trade & Industry First Aid Certicate 1976
Department of Trade & Industry Ship Captain's Medical Training Certificate 1976
Brunel Technical College/MNTB Sea Survival Course 1979

Very different nowadays I imagine!

In subsequent jobs after MN I had to do many other ancillary courses. In one job I had to do an RN Sea Survival course and RN Advanced Fire Fighting Course despite having done the MN ones.


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## loco (Dec 10, 2010)

Maybe I did do a colour test before Second mate's but I honestly don't remember. I do remember doing one in Leman St, London (?) before joining as a Cadet. I also remember the letter test then, before Second mates and also before Mates (didn't do Masters). I thought I was told at the time that after a certain age, it was considered that one didn't turn colour blind. But memory may have failed. I was relatively old to take Second mate's, being 22 at the time.

But I do remember a fellow cadet failing the colour test just prior to Second mates; the person was allowed to take ONC, but not the DTI exam, IIRC.

Martyn


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

well I never, at my age of 79 and seagoing days in the 60's you gentlemen of the deck department had the belief you were 'GODS GIFT; to Women, and the Organisers of Life aboard a vessel sailing under the 'RED DUSTER'..
Now then the lantern test was important, and the red, green lights the most critical as was the yellow Light, Somewhere in records the wavelengths of these lights are quoted in technical jargon/detail. The specific wave lengths have or had very little tolerance, and were those used to provide the coloured lens for the appropriate navigation light, not the bottom of a beer bottle- to determine whether empty or full??
Engineers were tested for eye sight, if they were registered colour blind? The test was not the lantern test, but a folder of woven woollen /cotton threads- The engineer in my day 2 or chief, maybe today the electrician/fridge had to collate the colours, and register that they could identify, with their colour blindness similar shades of colour constantly and repetitively, so that when they were working on. any type of machinery they could identify identical parts, which may be colour coded such as electrical cables, computer terminals, Fuse and power boxes.
SPARKIES R/O maybe would have been assessed the same way? I am not sure???


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## Stephen J Card (Jan 7, 2022)

captainconfusion said:


> Engineers were tested for eye sight, if they were registered colour blind? The test was not the lantern test, but a folder of woven woollen /cotton threads- The engineer in my day 2 or chief, maybe today the electrician/fridge had to collate the colours, and register that they could identify, with their colour blindness similar shades of colour constantly and repetitively, so that when they were working on. any type of machinery they could identify identical parts, which may be colour coded such as electrical cables, computer terminals, Fuse and power boxes.
> SPARKIES R/O maybe would have been assessed the same way? I am not sure???


How could an engineer manage with colour blindness in and engineroom, especially today? Pipework all colour coded. Valves. Signage. Fire fighting equipment? Would be a nightmare.

Stephen


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

How high are you jumping? Please state I quoted the late 50' 60', .
You have done the proverbial thing, JUmped down my throat. Have you read your ship captains medical guide'? Is It still issued to a Certificated person holding a master ticket of Competancy. What Is the definition of 'Colour Blindness'? is it an absolute complaint diagnosis or are there degrees of colour blindness.
AS a deck office or a PILOT {aircraft-hovercraft-pilot boat}=You have no choice you must be able to distinguish without doubt, a Navigational red light, a navigational green light and a navigational yellow light, within the parameters of the Said IMO International WAveband colour code standards, for the safety of the ship!! You have no choice: A young man in my days going to sea for a career {ambitions of travel/friendship and knowledge] was tested medically for eyesight- They could have perfect 20/20 vision and under certain cir***stances be allowed spectacle aided vison, not beer bottle bottoms], and then if they were subject to the medical colour blind condition be assessed for colour co-ordination/definition tests-all done under medical supervision, for engine room duties. THis would be reviewed at the second engineers certificate of competancy.
Maybe today under UK IMO REgulations this is clarified under the UK Class 4 Engineers Watch keeping certificate. The authorities are aware? Are you jumping to conclusions.
The complete marine industry wishes you all a safe Voyage!!! Good luck!!!


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

As an engineer n the 70's 80' taking my CoC's I don't remember any eysight tests. There might have been one at the Shipping Federation when I applied for my Discharge and Red Seamans card, but don't recall a colour blind test. Things may have changed since.
I enjoyed the 2nds 3 day Firefighting course at Hull on Clough Road. Forty five gallon drums of engine oil left to get the two story steel structure warm and full of smoke before they sent you in with a BA set to find a dummy , put the fire out after crawling on your hands and knees in an accomodation and ER set up. By the end of the 3 days you had confidence in wearing the BA set and tackling oil fires.
I suppose with the demise of the MN and before that the closing of some Nautical Colleges the 'Tank' as it was known was removed, perhaps it didn't sit well with the Healh and Safety types sending people into potentialy dangerous situations.

Then the EU messed up all the colour coding of extinguishers and painted them all red.


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

captainconfusion said:


> well I never, at my age of 79 and seagoing days in the 60's you gentlemen of the deck department had the belief you were 'GODS GIFT; to Women, and the Organisers of Life aboard a vessel sailing under the 'RED DUSTER'..
> Now then the lantern test was important, and the red, green lights the most critical as was the yellow Light, Somewhere in records the wavelengths of these lights are quoted in technical jargon/detail. The specific wave lengths have or had very little tolerance, and were those used to provide the coloured lens for the appropriate navigation light, not the bottom of a beer bottle- to determine whether empty or full??
> Engineers were tested for eye sight, if they were registered colour blind? The test was not the lantern test, but a folder of woven woollen /cotton threads- The engineer in my day 2 or chief, maybe today the electrician/fridge had to collate the colours, and register that they could identify, with their colour blindness similar shades of colour constantly and repetitively, so that when they were working on. any type of machinery they could identify identical parts, which may be colour coded such as electrical cables, computer terminals, Fuse and power boxes.
> SPARKIES R/O maybe would have been assessed the same way? I am not sure???


Yep R/O,s had to do a colour eye test for the obvious reason that certain components kept for repairs were indeed colour coded although anyone with half a brain would have been able to work out if there was incompatibility when replacing say a dud resistor from the spares carried.


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## Pilot mac (Jun 28, 2005)

sternchallis said:


> As an engineer n the 70's 80' taking my CoC's I don't remember any eysight tests. There might have been one at the Shipping Federation when I applied for my Discharge and Red Seamans card, but don't recall a colour blind test. Things may have changed since.
> I enjoyed the 2nds 3 day Firefighting course at Hull on Clough Road. Forty five gallon drums of engine oil left to get the two story steel structure warm and full of smoke before they sent you in with a BA set to find a dummy , put the fire out after crawling on your hands and knees in an accomodation set up. By the end of the 3 days you had confidence in wearing the BA set and tackling oil fires.
> I suppose with the demise of the MN and before that the closn some of Nautical Colleges the 'Tank' as it was known was removed, perhaps it didn't sit well with the Healh and Safety types sending people into potentialy dangerous situations.
> 
> Then the EU messed up all the colour coding of extinguishers and painted them all red.


Back in the day, most 'generic' medicals included a colour blindness test in the form of an Ishihara Test (small book with coloured dots on each page showing a number or figure) so you probably did have one.

As for fire extinguishers, somebody in Brussels must have got a job lot of red paint, what a nonsense.

regards

Dave


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

We all at one time or another had to take some form of upgrade to our Certificate of Competency whether it was Arpa radar, bridge management, etc. Also first aid as it was for a limited time..
When the boat I sailed on the Great Lakes was re-flagged and a foreign crew was employed I was required to obtain a "B" license exemption certificate so I was permitted to pilot in the open lakes. I presented myself to the exam centre in Toronto and the examiner got out the requirements and started questioning me. I asked had he ever sailed on the Great Lakes and his answer was no. How do you think I reacted to this as I had been doing it for many. many years. I declined his test and went to another centre and was handed the required License. Beaurcricy gone mad. and each year more and more courses are added t make us more proficient ????


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## georgeandrewbisacre (Oct 18, 2021)

Stephen J. Card said:


> First Aid At Sea
> Ship Master's Medical Course
> Merchant Navy Firefighting Course
> Certificate of Efficiency as a Lifeboatman
> ...


Steering certificate


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## loco (Dec 10, 2010)

georgeandrewbisacre;

See my post #4.

I suppose that the Steering certificate was the first qualification obtained on the long passage to Certificate of Competency. 

Martyn


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## georgeandrewbisacre (Oct 18, 2021)

loco said:


> georgeandrewbisacre;
> 
> See my post #4.
> 
> ...


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## loco (Dec 10, 2010)

Not sure if EDH and lifeboat was actually compulsory as part of the pre-qualification to take Second Mates, but at Warsash we were certainly told if you didn't pass them, then no second Mate's exams........

And, as you say, steering certificate was a requirement to hold EDH., which was why I feel it was the first certificate on the long passage to being able to take DTI exams.

Martyn


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## Pilot mac (Jun 28, 2005)

In my time it was considered that if you had EDH you wouldn't be asked EDH type questions in 2nd Mates orals.
This proved to be untrue in my case. I had EDH and the first question in Orals ' Put a bullivant splice in that son'
Deep shock but managed to wing it, he was only interested in seeing the locking tuck.

Dave


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## George Bis (Mar 8, 2014)

lakercapt said:


> Yes that was the case and you also had to have a lifeboat certificate too.


When I was at Robert Gordon’s Pre Sea school in Aberdeen 1966/7 we took a one. week Defence Course which told us how to use ships code books & we signed the Official Secrets Act.
Never heard a word about it after that


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