# compound engines



## uncle al (Dec 1, 2007)

can any please advise me if the engine makers McNab+Co of greenock made 3cyl compound engines in 1849?(Read)


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## murrayis (Aug 20, 2010)

Hi
Found the following reference on the web site, www.red-duster.co.uk/BIBBY11.htm 
"_ARABIAN was built in 1862 by Harland & Wolff at Belfast with a tonnage of 2066grt, a length of 335ft, a beam of 34ft 2in and a service speed of 10 knots. Sister of the Egyptian she was launched on 15th April and immediately after being delivered to John Bibby, Sons & Co. on 2nd May went to Greenock where a low pressure cylinder was added by McNab & Co. to compound her engine. This addition gave her three cylinders and in 1871 a fourth high pressure cylinder was added to 'double' compound her._"
Not exactly what you were asking, but least a reference to a 3cyl compound at McNab & Co a few years later


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

1849 seems a bit early for 'compounding'. McNab & Co (MacNab?) had a shipyard at Greenock from about 1863.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Screw steamer's first appeared in the 1840's following the invention of the screw propellor in the 1830's, prior to that it was paddler's. Several steam screw driven vessel's were built in the 1840's and in those day's the steam engine was the auxilary to sail. Early steam engine's were "V" type oscillating engine's were it would be possible to add cylinder's. Not come across McNab as yet.


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## Don Matheson (Mar 13, 2007)

Not so easy to find good information on the net but I have found several 2 cyl. engines built in 58-59 of around 120-150NHP.
I have also found a 4 cyl compound which is recorded as 600HP but seems to have been two 2 cyl engines bolted together using a 41and 86 inch cylinders in each pair.
No luck yet with the 3cyl compound but having fun doing this so will keep looking.

Don


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## Jim S (Jan 21, 2006)

Denis Griffiths book "Steam at Sea" (pages 52 - 53) describes the introduction of the three crank compound engine that overcome the problems of the large diameter of the LP cylinder and balancing on the two crank dsigns.
An LP cylinder either side of the HP cylinder. The author continues - " Although the general three crank arrangement was adopted by most engine builders there were a number of variations and one patented by Milliam MacNab in 1963 is worthy of mention as it had the usual two LP cylinders driving outer cranks but there were two HP cylinders arranged in a transverse direction. HP piston rodsto the same crosshead which then connected with the central crank. What practical advantages the arrangement had is difficult to imagine as both HP cylinders exhausted into the same receiver space which surrounded them.
John M Rowan of Glasgow developed a three cylinder compound engine during the late 1850's, the single HP and twin LP cylinders driving the single crank of a paddle steamer steeple engine. Application of this cylinder arrangement to screw propulsion must have taken place about the same time and MacNab's engine was obviously a means to avoid the infringement of any patents"
I apologise for a lengthy extract but it perhaps gives a flavour of the designs of the time - It does appear however that 1849 is a bit too early for MacNabs three crank compound engine.


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## Scurdie (Aug 6, 2009)

I assume that Patent was in 1863, not 1963.


Jim S said:


> one patented by Milliam MacNab in 1963 is worthy of mention as it had the usual two LP cylinders driving outer cranks but there were two HP cylinders arranged in a transverse direction.


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## Jim S (Jan 21, 2006)

Of course the above should have read 1863 not 1963 and the man's name was William and not Milliam - Sorry.


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

I believe McNab could possibly somewhere have beeen confused with William McNaught, who in 1845 added a high pressure cylinder to an existing beam engine near the crank end of the beam; this in a cotton factory. Such an addition to an engine was called "McNaughting" until the term was superseded by "compounding." The younger Jonathan Hornblower patented a compound arrangement in 1781, and the folloing year erected such an engine at Radstock near Bath, but was stopped from proceceeding further due to infringement of the separate condenser patent by Watt. Accordin to my book, the first successful application of a compound engine to a sea going ship was in 1854, this from a 1853 patent by John and David Elder. The first triple seem to have arrived in 1871, courtesy of one Charles Normand. Here a Wikipedia entry on McNaught: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McNaught_(Glasgow) (You have to click on the name after "did you mean" in red,)


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## uncle al (Dec 1, 2007)

here is the whole gist of my enquiry. the following vessel -- 
name s.s diana
built 1849
tonnage 390 grt
builder smith+rodger,glasgow
owners waterford s.s Co,waterford
fate 7-10-1878 foundered of portland,dorset
cargo coal + patent fuel
i belong to a group of divers who have dived an uncharted wreck of portland, the wreck is broken in 2,and well disintgrated, there is evidence of large lumps of coal and patent fuel (no name or motiff) there is a single large boiler and a small 3 cyl engine.the wreck is in the area where the s.s diana was lost. the vessel was not listed in the Lloyds registers from 1858-1873,but returns in 1874. from what i have been told, the Lloyds reg of 1878 gives the engines as being made by `McNab+Co,greenock-but does not give if compound or triple exp. in richard larns book`shipwreck index to the british isles (vol 1) he states a compound engine, and source as Lloyds register 1878-8 No 275(D). what is -No 275(D)??,was the engine changed to a triple exp engine or could it be a 3 cyl compound engine?(Ouch) any/all help appreciated


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

After 29 years she may well have had a newer engine installed. 
As far as I can understand (I'm no expert), "compound" means adding another, lower pressure, cylinder to a single one - and that you do not do anything else when adding a third for even lower pressure. Which you then call a "triple expansion engine." Double- or triple-compound sounds to me like two or three two-cylinder engines.


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## gil mayes (Nov 20, 2006)

DIANA (O.N.341) 627grt 390n 183.2 x 23.9 x 13.6 feet was as stated built by Smith & Rodger, Glasgow (Yd.No.14) in 1849 as an iron screw passenger cargo steamer for W. Malcoman, Waterford. Her engine builder is not listed but power is 100hp. The builder of the engine for DIANA (65308) which is listed above her in the register was Macnab & Co, Greenock. That DIANA which was paddle and the engine was direct acting 90hp. Details taken from 1874-75 Lloyd's Register.
Gil.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

A good clue to the age of a steam vessel shipwreck is the shape of the Boiler as they have not alway's been cylindrical from the very beginning of steam powered vessel's.


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

PS Diana of 1851 had a single cylinder steeple paddle engine built by MacNab. Diana of 1849 (one of a series of sisters built by Smith and Rodger) a screw vessel. Smith and Rodger often made the engines for vessels they built. In 1849 would have probably been single expansion 2 cyl engine. Malcolmson's owners of Waterford SS Co were very large rich shipowners and as Stein points out Diana might have been reboilered and reengined by 1878. The number of cylinders doesn't tell you much about the type of engine. Three cylinders the same size could be a single expansion engine; three cylinders with one small and two larger cylinders could be a three cylinder compound; a triple expansion would have three cylinders of different sizes. I would doubt a triple expansion engine would have been available to fit to an old coaster pre 1878.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Eddy, I would agree with you in regard to the VTE engine not being available in that period of time and she may well have been re-boilered and re-engined at some point in her later year's. If her boiler had been box shaped she most probably would have been fitted with a 2cy "V" low pressure Oscillating Engine. She has been on the bottom a long time but her Hull was Iron and I wonder if it is possible to make out as to whether she has a raised Quarter Deck which is a good indication that she has/had a VCE and a Scotch Boiler fitted.


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## uncle al (Dec 1, 2007)

chadburn said:


> Eddy, I would agree with you in regard to the VTE engine not being available in that period of time and she may well have been re-boilered and re-engined at some point in her later year's. If her boiler had been box shaped she most probably would have been fitted with a 2cy "V" low pressure Oscillating Engine. She has been on the bottom a long time but her Hull was Iron and I wonder if it is possible to make out as to whether she has a raised Quarter Deck which is a good indication that she has/had a VCE and a Scotch Boiler fitted.


the stern of the vessel has completly rotted away leaving the engine/boiler and propshaft totally visable,there is only a small piece of hull where the propshaft goes through the hull, the boiler is a large round one,the engine is very small compared to the boiler with 3 cylinders(?) which all look the same size. the wreck is in 2 pieces, within a few yards of each other


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## Chillytoes (Dec 9, 2006)

From the last post it would seem that if all cylinders are the same size, the engines would be single expansion in three cylinders and not compounded in the true sense. True compounding uses a smaller high pressure cylinder which exhausts to a larger low pressure cylinder. Compounding came about as a result of the work of John Elder and the availability of higher steam pressures.
Sounds like the engines in this "Diana" were rather unusual.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Al, has indicated that the boiler is a Scotch Boiler, that mean's the pressure in those day's would be around 120Ibs per square inch with a Compound engine with the HP in the middle and the LP's either side of it, however as they were a rich Company apparently they could have took it a stage further as by the 1891 VTE's were the norm with a Boiler pressure of around 160Ibs. At that time there were two type's of v/v gear, the well nown Stephenson and the lesser known Joy's v/v gear. Anyone worked on the latter type of v/v gear? There were so many changes between 1850 and the 1900's down the Engineroom and I don't suppose there is a photograph of this particular engine or what is left of it available to be more positive on what it is.


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## Chillytoes (Dec 9, 2006)

The first steam engines were of single cylinder and consequently each cylinder was referred to as an "engine". So when another cylinder, or engine, was added the whole was termed as "compounded engines". With the availability of higher steam pressures is was possible to add an extra cylinder to expand the steam further so these became "compound expansion engines'.
Since the first propeller driven ships used engines designed for slow-running paddlers, the shaft speed had to be increased through some form of gearing. So does this Diana have gears? Are all the cylinders really the same size, or what? Bearing in mind that the famous HMS Rattler of 1845 had two sets of Siamese engines (compounded - 4 cylinders) what was available in 1849 for Diana?


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## uncle al (Dec 1, 2007)

a friend of mine who was on the same diving group recovered a steam gauge and has just informed me that it has a name stamped on it---`hannan and buchanan`,this company started in 1869 and was still going in the 1st w.war, some else took a camera down-will ask him if he took any shots ect of the engine(K)


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

Hannan and Buchanan made steam engine indicators. I wonder if the 'steam guage' might be one of these?


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## murrayis (Aug 20, 2010)

The following website www.archivingindustry.com/Indicator/sourceinfo.htm states "John Hannan, Glasgow. The predecessor of Hannan & Buchanan, active from the 1850s. Made McNaught indicators, apparently for McNaught himself." So when they became Hannan & Buchanan did they continue to supply McNaught?


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## uncle al (Dec 1, 2007)

eddyw said:


> Hannan and Buchanan made steam engine indicators. I wonder if the 'steam guage' might be one of these?


it`s a steam gauge--the back has rotted out leaving the bourdon tube + glass intact and was attached via a copper tube


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## uncle al (Dec 1, 2007)

murrayis said:


> The following website www.archivingindustry.com/Indicator/sourceinfo.htm states "John Hannan, Glasgow. The predecessor of Hannan & Buchanan, active from the 1850s. Made McNaught indicators, apparently for McNaught himself." So when they became Hannan & Buchanan did they continue to supply McNaught?


intresting,did Hannah+Buchanan make gauges from 1849??


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Any sign of a Condenser casing which in those day's would be attached to the back of the Main Engine?


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## uncle al (Dec 1, 2007)

stein said:


> I believe McNab could possibly somewhere have beeen confused with William McNaught, who in 1845 added a high pressure cylinder to an existing beam engine near the crank end of the beam; this in a cotton factory. Such an addition to an engine was called "McNaughting" until the term was superseded by "compounding." The younger Jonathan Hornblower patented a compound arrangement in 1781, and the folloing year erected such an engine at Radstock near Bath, but was stopped from proceceeding further due to infringement of the separate condenser patent by Watt. Accordin to my book, the first successful application of a compound engine to a sea going ship was in 1854, this from a 1853 patent by John and David Elder. The first triple seem to have arrived in 1871, courtesy of one Charles Normand. Here a Wikipedia entry on McNaught: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McNaught_(Glasgow) (You have to click on the name after "did you mean" in red,)


Lloyds reg states McNab


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## uncle al (Dec 1, 2007)

chadburn said:


> Any sign of a Condenser casing which in those day's would be attached to the back of the Main Engine?


not that i could see, i am still trying to get in touch with the diver who took a video of the vessel. the brass wheel boss was found-but there was no writing on it


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## uncle al (Dec 1, 2007)

contacted the diver concerned.----the engine is a small triple exp engine,the boiler is a wide ,but not very long, so i think this is not the `s.s diana`,but for the time being will still be an `unknown`.thanks to all those concerned.(Pint)(Pint)(Thumb)


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## wightspirit (Feb 15, 2008)

It is with much regret that the instigator of this thread, Alan Dunster, know as Uncle Al, failed to surface from a dive last week on the wreck of HMY Warrior II, and has not yet been found. We fear the worst. He was a diver of many years standing, one of the old school, and was involved in researching all sorts of unidentified wrecks with a view to identifying them and bringing the stories of their loss back to life. I am told efforts are in hand to try to locate him on the wreck.

Dave W


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## 40907 (Sep 26, 2009)

That is very bad news indeed. Please keep us abreast of developments.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Agreed Reef Knot.


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