# Who really benefits from Containerization ?



## MM² (Mar 21, 2008)

The problem with containers is that they are just too big so they can only travel via a monolithic infrastructure. Which means that the flow of general cargo round the globe is controlled by those who own that infrastructure – it was ever thus but no to the present extent.


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## slick (Mar 31, 2006)

All,
Containerisation, considered by some to be the greatest non-technical invention of the 20th. Century.
Yours aye,
Slick


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## tell (Feb 12, 2005)

the dockers didnt appreciate them lol


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## MikeK (Jul 3, 2007)

tell said:


> the dockers didnt appreciate them lol


Nor the rest of the Merchant Navy(s) personnel when one 'box boat' does the work of ten conventionals, or whatever the figure was !

Mike


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

Seems to me that a lot of empty boxes are carried for positioning purposes & that some have to be shifted sometimes in port as they overstow full units - a logistics nightmare. Does anyone have any numbers on the percentage fulls & empties carried & non-revenue unit moves?


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## cboots (Aug 16, 2004)

Whilst its role should not be exagerated containerisation has definitely played a key part in the globalisation phenomena through the provision of cheap transportation. The next decade or so will be interesting to observe from a shipping persepective as the effects of climate change and the efforts to combat it, coupled with peak oil, all start to be felt. Perhaps it will be that the smart guys were the P & Os and the CP Ships, who sold their fleets, rather than the Maersks who continued to expand.
CBoots


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## gdynia (Nov 3, 2005)

Maersk are expanding but not only in containers they presently have a large FPSO waiting to sail from Singapore with a further 8 units planned so they are very well diversified


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## Cap'n Pete (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm a container ship captain and, therefore, have a positive perspective of the value of containers ships. However, it was a recent experience of going to my local supermarket which really convinced me of the value of cheap transport and it's effect on the global economy and the personal wealth of just about every individual in the world today.

Do not expect anything earth-shattering here! This was just a simple experience that convinced me of the value of container ships.

Having traded to Australia for over 40 years, I always enjoyed Arnotts Tim Tam biscuits wherever we called down under. The other day, I saw these offered for sale in my local Tesco. I picked up a packet expecting it to have been made under licence here in the UK but NO, it had been made in Australia.

Working it out at a cost of $2000 to ship a container full of say 15 tons of biscuits from Australia to the UK, that packet of biscuits probably cost less than 10 cents to ship. 20 years ago, the probability of an Australian company trying to sell it's biscuits in the UK would have been unheard of.

EVERYONE of us has benefited from containerisation. However, this global boost to the world's economy would not have been possible without the men and women who sail in container ships and have adapted to the new lifestyle at sea.


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## Dave Wilson (Feb 6, 2008)

Pete,
You're not a shareholders of Arnotts by any chance and doing a bit of marketing?


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## Cap'n Pete (Feb 27, 2006)

Dave Wilson said:


> Pete,
> You're not a shareholders of Arnotts by any chance and doing a bit of marketing?


Hell's bells - I've been found out. We've got their shipping contract!


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## AncientBrit (Oct 6, 2007)

One has only to go in any of the "big box" stores in the US and Canada and try to find something that was NOT made in China for a fraction of the price of equivelant item made in US or Canada, sold by non-union, part-time staff with no tenure, medical or holiday benefits to see who is really benefitting from containerization. It will be interesting to watch what happens when the Chinese workers standard of living brings demands for higher wages and the price of oil goes thru the roof.
I hear the reason the stevedores hate containers is because its almost impossible to steal anything, other than the odd "accidental drop " that happens to the container with the more valuable contents, but rarely to to those with plastic toys or cheap houshold utensils.
AB


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## Rutts (Jun 28, 2005)

There will be one less container operator soon as Germany's HAPAG LLOYD goes on the market or is up for a takeover. Singapore's Neptune Orient Line and Maersk Line have been named as contenders for the takeover.

If memory serves me right Hapag is the 5th largest container carrier.


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## Bearsie (Nov 11, 2006)

Containers certainly have made huge changes, if these changes are beneficial or detrimental may depend in part of who you are and where...
For the average man in a western country, the change could be mostly seen as negative. Towns that were trading harbors with well to do populations are now ghost towns and residents on the Dole, but we have cheap cookies...
The whole container thing is on a superhuman scale and transport a rat race... (Cloud) 
Not sure that the convenience of the box was worth it all...
Not to worry, eventually China will pick up all welfare payments, of course the checks will be shipped in a box [=P] 

Regards, Bearsie


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## MM² (Mar 21, 2008)

*Pardon my ignorance.....*



> Maersk are expanding but not only in containers they presently have a large *FPSO* waiting to sail from Singapore/QUOTE]
> 
> ...but what is an FPSO?


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## JoK (Nov 12, 2006)

> Towns that were trading harbors with well to do populations are now ghost towns and residents on the Dole, but we have cheap cookies...


Halifax isn't to that extent, but watching out my office window, it is obvious that container shipping is down. Now that could be the bigger ships, but it is also the fact that the rail infrastructure can't handle the amount of containers fast enough. So Companies are lessening their calls here and heading to Montreal or the US.


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## Supergoods (Nov 25, 2007)

About 10 years ago I had to ship 2 large crates of personal effects from Houston to Nantes for my daughter.

As I used to be in the business I assumed that LCL container consolidation would be used, especially as time was not critical.

My freight forwarder phoned and told me that by the year 1999 LCL shipping as it used to exist now consisted of shipment in a consolidated container from Houston to Rotterdam where the container would be unstuffed and the contents delivered by road to Nantes.

By the time all the handling fees and traditional port costs had been added in it would actually be cheaper to use air freight using a Lufthansa weekend rate to Frankfurt and all inclusive delivery from Frankfurt to Nantes, the truck delivering from Frankfurt to Nantes even had a flight number.

It seems that the increase in volume benifits only the FCL shipper and anything more complex is unwanted business.

Ian


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

AncientBrit said:


> .....
> I hear the reason the stevedores hate containers is because its almost impossible to steal anything, other than the odd "accidental drop " that happens to the container with the more valuable contents, but rarely to to those with plastic toys or cheap houshold utensils.
> AB


I heard that they like them because instead of the odd penny ante item from a cardboard carton they can now snaffle a whole twenty foot container!

The iconic Australian "Arnotts Biscuits" sold out a couple of years ago and are now owned by Campbells Soup of the US - expect your Tim Tams to be arriving by container from China very soon.

MM2 - FPSO stands for Floating Production Storage and Offloading - a good way of recycling redundant tankers.

John T.


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## Ian6 (Feb 1, 2006)

A belated comment on the further impact of containerisation. In far eastern ports it used to be a joy seeing family-run junks etc come alongside to take a couple of tons of cargo off and away up some creek. The contrast of what then seemed modern western technology and age-old methods was great. The equivalent nearer home was the transfer into smaller craft from ocean going cargo ships so that fractions of the load could sail directly to minor ports or up canals to inland towns.
Containers do not lend themselves to this traffic and container terminals do not welcome family run sampans. It is not just the cargo ships of the 1960's that have gone but all the supporting infrastructure and coastal traffic. Now each arriving container ship leads to another 1,000 lorry loads on the roads.
But at least you can get cheap Tim Tams and Vegemite in Tescos and British looking HP Sauce can be imported in containers rather than made in Birmingham.
Still I guess if the internet had existed 100 years ago some ex-square rigger would have cursed those new fangled coal burning steamers.
Ian


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## surfaceblow (Jan 16, 2008)

The Three River Arts Festival in Pittsburgh PA benefited from the use of containers. It usually rains during the festival and the park that the festival usually uses was not available to put tents up. The vendors and exhibitors used the containers around the downtown area. 

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/living/s_568325.html


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## raybnz (Sep 10, 2005)

I guess the only people I think benefit from containerization are the smugglers whether they be into drugs pinching cars , Harley Davidsons or along similar lines.

Here in NZ we seem to have more bugs and grubs that are not native to this part of the world.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I hadn't thought of that, Raybnz. Here in Australia our native brown geckos seem to have disappeared and have been replaced by a yukky see-through Indonesian variety that is everywhere - all happened in the last couple of years.

John T.
.


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## AncientBrit (Oct 6, 2007)

There was an article in the newspaper last week talking about companies planning to manufacture items in N.America once again. The increase in fuel costs and the rising expectations and accompanying wages of workers in China is beginning to make it less economical to have stuff made in the Orient and shipped to N. America. A prospect that must have a lot of container shipping companies worried as they build bigger and more expensive ships for delivery a couple years down stream.
AB


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I some years ago I met a bloke who was running a world-wide survey, trying to locate every ANL container following years of their scattering to the four winds. One was located with a large family living in it in Peru. He didn't say whether it was airconditioned or not, but that family benefitted as the company decided to let them keep it.

John T.


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## cboots (Aug 16, 2004)

RE AncientBrit's post above there was a report published just recently in Canada that had findings that the biggest cost factor in global trade now is transportation costs, due to the dramatic rises in oil prices, and this is, in certain cases is offsetting the differences in production costs. So who knows, could be in a few years time you may be buying biscuits made in your home town again. As already stated, this must be causing some loss of sleep amongst those who have invested in mega sized box boats, not to mention the Port of Melbourne and their politcal supporters who are in the process of spending over a billion bucks destroying Port Philip Bay to let them in.
CBoots


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Maybe we will live to see the Feminists knitting their own boiler suits.

John T.


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## pete (Mar 13, 2005)

It would seem that some of us have forgotten how many people were put out of work by containers......................pete (Cloud)


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## duffield (Jan 7, 2007)

On the subject of containers, I have just been sent some photos of the largest of this type of ship, the Emma Maersk. She carries 15,000containers, has a 207 ft beam, and a service speed of 31 knots. She only does one route, China-California. Returning with empty containers, so all the trade is one way. She only has a 13 man crew!. Makes an old sea dog weep.


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## cboots (Aug 16, 2004)

Makes an old economist weep too, not to mention many an unemployed American manufacturing worker as well. But one has to wonder just how long a trade imbalance such as this can continue, especially now that the "invisibles" market, which according to those who believed in all this sort of thing was supposed to be the great offsetting factor, is also coming apart at the seams.
CBoots


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## 206 (May 2, 2008)

duffield said:


> On the subject of containers, I have just been sent some photos of the largest of this type of ship, the Emma Maersk. She carries 15,000containers, has a 207 ft beam, and a service speed of 31 knots. She only does one route, China-California. Returning with empty containers, so all the trade is one way. She only has a 13 man crew!. Makes an old sea dog weep.


Duffield, I suspect I received the same photos (these things seem to circulate via email) but the accompanying info was suspect.

According to Wikipedia Emma Maersk's regular round trip involves Ningbo, Xiamen, Hong Kong (westbound), Yantian (westbound), Tanjung Pelepas (westbound), Algeciras (westbound), Rotterdam, Bremerhaven, Algeciras (eastbound), Tanjung Pelepas (eastbound), Yantian (eastbound), Hong Kong (eastbound) and Ningbo.


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## JohnBP (Mar 27, 2008)

Dave, are U the Dave Wilson, X BP Engineer, living in Glasgow (Wilson Batteries)?


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## Dulcibella (Mar 7, 2008)

I remember when the first containers arrived in Melbourne and the Waterside Workers Federation called out their members on strike because there was no way articles could be pilferred! The containers were Customs sealed and would require Customs supervision when/after unloading! 

When I was working for P&O's Managing Agents in Melbourne we were always getting claims for pilferage prior to containers.

Ian, Dulcibella


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## cboots (Aug 16, 2004)

I am quite sure that no union has ever called its members out on strike in support of a right to pilfer. We all know that cargo pilfering occurred, some of it by wharfies, but that is very different from the assertion that a trade union called for a strike to support it. Sadly the world is full of dishonest people, some belong to trade unions, some work on the wharves, but to extrapolate from that that every wharfie is a crook is not only untrue but it is also scurrilous. I personally know of one Victorian lawyer who is a crook, and when I complained to the Law Institute of Victoria they did not want to know. But if I were to declare publically that the Law Institute of Victoria supports bent lawyers, I have not doubt what the result would be.
CBoots


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