# A Cunard Query?



## Cisco

This question has been asked elsewhere...

This is a shot taken on the bridge of Queen Mary at Long Beach.

The 'course to steer' is simple... but what is the plus/minus above that.. with the little arrow?

The best I can think of is that it is the gyro error.....

Any old Cunarders out there with an answer?


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## David Wilcockson

To allow for leeway or drift?


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## Barrie Youde

Surely a gyro error is always stated to be either high or low (as opposed to east or west in the case of the magnetic compass)?

Cisco is surely right.

At a guess, also, the box below the figures "264" (i.e. the course to be steered per gyro-compass) will contain the letters "P.M.O." and "T.P.A.", or something very similar, to be used accordingly.

For sure, this was the practice in Blue Flue.

ps. I should add that I have no recollection of ever having set foot aboard a Cunard ship!


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## Barrie Youde

Please allow me to add what a delight it is to see a detailed photograph of a preserved bridge from the Queen Mary era, with magnetic compass and gyro compass standing side-by-side - and not a trace of formica, plastic or other horror in sight.

In my mind's eye I see the flag-locker, the Kent Clear-view screen (do ships still have, them?), a voice-pipe directly to the Master's bunk, a movement book, several brass telegraphs, a wooden wheel inlaid with brass, a lanyard for the steam whistle, a Willett-Bruce compressed air whistle control, spotlessly scrubbed gratings, a high-chair, etc,etc, and many other things missing from this list - almost all now gone but not forgotten.

Thank you!


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## Varley

Go on, Barrie,

One of your splendid odes to specify a proper wheelhouse. One where the pilot's chair is only for the pilot (perhaps Sparkie up for a cup of tea - do you have rather a surfeit of telegraphs?). 

I think you can just see a quarter of a clear view screen top right.


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## Barrie Youde

Pre-Plastic Thoughts

The Aldis-Lamp was in its rack,
Before the VHF.
The Cook was in the galley,
Long before he was a Chef.

The Chartroom was abaft the Wheelhouse,
Snugly fitted-out.
The Charts and the Chronometers
Served to allay much doubt.

The World was self-contained.
One simply had to push across it,
Maintaining proper look-out
For the hazards which emboss it.

Radar in its infancy.
Switched off, much of the time.
Excessive use thereof
Showed, even then, the seeds of crime.

Lead and log and latitude,
Look-out. And use your ears.
The mariner’s commandments
Guided many, through the years.

And not much else, upon the bridge,
When, standing on your feet,
The rule said, “Don’t hit anything”:
And duty was complete.

Speaking to the flag-locker
In International Code,
The watch-keeper could pass his time 
Along the ocean road.

Mathematics. Principles. 
Are things one has to know,
To keep along the straight and narrow,
Where one wants to go.

Get them right and all is well.
Life is a piece of cake.
Get them wrong and life is hell.
No mercy for mistake.

When tea and tabnabs put things right,
At times when matters wondered,
Served in this transport of delight,
Each day at fifteen hundred.

Long before the internet
Or curse of mobile phone,
What bliss to be upon the bridge
And do things on one’s own!

BY
17.11.2018


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## Ron Stringer

Varley said:


> I think you can just see a quarter of a clear view screen top right.


David, I think it may be time for you to take a trip to Specsavers. Or cut back on the early morning 'livener'.


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## Stephen J. Card

LOL!!!!! Voice pipe up to the Monkey Island.


Here a much more modern bridge... well c. 1975 on a large OBO. Not much difference between the QUEEN MARY and the SEVONIA TEAM. Same gear... and the Voice pipe as well! OK, formica panelling, but it was a simple bridge. Some teak trim, just to make it feel 'at home'. Even the 'course board', nice teak blocks. Works well and no dusty chalk! The only thing missing was the bridge wings! I only did two dockings... in five months and both times I was on the poop. Only 21 days at sea, but four months at anchor. Every watch... "Anchor position frequently verified". I can even remember the main bearing: "Nisos Salamas North Point brg 180T.!


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## Barrie Youde

Stephen,

How dare you?

Sacrilege!

BY


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## Stephen J. Card

I have seen some ships with all wood panelling including Queen Mary in Long Beach. That wood panelling does not stand up to it. Perhaps when new but when later it looks chipped, stained, water marked, scored, OVER VARNISHED. It looks dreadful. I want the wheelhouse to be spotless and no 'damage'... even if it is formica. Now I di agree that wing railings must be teak and doors must be teak as well... and must be hanging rollers NOT on 'hinges'. And the door must be wide enough to get two people in at the same time. Nothing worse when you need the phone, telegraph etc and there is some one standing there with a tea cup in the way!

Hate lino on the wheelhouse deck too. Best if carpeted... or indoor/outdoor squares. Lasts forever. Only sad part is when the quartermaster come up to clean the wheelhouse at sunrise and has to start with the hoover. Looks out of place with everything else.

Stephen
'


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## Barrie Youde

Ho, bloody Ho!

A Hoover on the bridge?

'Stalmighty? What is the world coming to?


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## Varley

Ron Stringer said:


> David, I think it may be time for you to take a trip to Specsavers. Or cut back on the early morning 'livener'.


I think you are right. What is it then? Voice pipe from monkey island?

(Sorry have just re-read Stephen's saying the same).


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## howardang

Varley said:


> I think you are right. What is it then? Voice pipe from monkey island?


I am sure that is a voice pipe - essential for giving helm orders from the monkey island when swinging the ship during compass adjusting.

Howard


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## Varley

The Team ships were very fine indeed for we of non passenger material did not hunger and thirst after 'The Cunard' (as Kipling's MacAndrew would have had it). My two did rather more in the way of work than Stephen's although we did get two weeks or so off Annapolis on Norvegia. Winglessness was a bit strange but having several years on Stonehaven where the stanchions used to prop hers up, by design and formerly of conventional construction, had to be much reinforced with wires, bottle screws and Iberian deck machinery there may have been some other point to it than making life difficult for the docking pilot and bronzie.


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## Barrie Youde

#12 & #13 

I agree that the top-right of the photograph looks like the bell-end of a voice pipe from the monkey island. For sure, it ain't no Kent clear-view!


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## Varley

Yes. But you will see both clear-view and wiper in Stephen's photograph.


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## Barrie Youde

Thank you, David,

I appreciate both points which you make.

Informative though it is, the later photograph excites no nostalgia in me - of any kind. By the time such ships began to appear (early 1970s?), disillusion was beginning to arise in my own life. I saw change for change's sake and many, many far worse errors.

Enough of that! I'm hugely grateful to have enjoyed (and to have known at all) the early days of my career.

Repeated thanks,

Barrie


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## Pat Kennedy

Stephen J. Card said:


> I have seen some ships with all wood panelling including Queen Mary in Long Beach. That wood panelling does not stand up to it. Perhaps when new but when later it looks chipped, stained, water marked, scored, OVER VARNISHED. It looks dreadful. I want the wheelhouse to be spotless and no 'damage'... even if it is formica. Now I di agree that wing railings must be teak and doors must be teak as well... and must be hanging rollers NOT on 'hinges'. And the door must be wide enough to get two people in at the same time. Nothing worse when you need the phone, telegraph etc and there is some one standing there with a tea cup in the way!
> 
> Hate lino on the wheelhouse deck too. Best if carpeted... or indoor/outdoor squares. Lasts forever. Only sad part is when the quartermaster come up to clean the wheelhouse at sunrise and has to start with the hoover. Looks out of place with everything else.
> 
> Stephen
> '


The wheel house and bridge front varnish needed constant TLC from the middies in Blue Funnel.(Thumb)


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## Varley

Thanks for the latest Barrie. I am sure none of us would argue that life at sea is as much fun as it was when we were doing it. The points at which things changed, I am sure, were different depending on our viewpoint.


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## Stephen J. Card

From a well know story from J&J Denholm Line. The bridge front was all varnished. The captain's pride on the fleet's pride. The relief master, Captain Olsen, hated varnish and thought it was a waste of time. He told the mate to paint everything white lead. Some months later the permanent master came back and found what had happened. He personally spent two voyages out to the Far East hanging on stages to scrape all of the paint off and cover everything with varnish.

My first trip, the wheelhouse was all wood. The Mate, Malcolm Thorpe, thought it was too much to wash and scrub the wooden deck. He had the crew sand down wheelhouse deck and gave a few coats of varnish. Beautiful! First day at sea, a bit moisture and the old man sent down his backside. It stayed varnished and was easy to wash every day with a wet mop.


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## Stephen J. Card

Just in case there is no doubt, Queen Mary did indeed have two clearviews in the wheelhouse.

The first photo if the wheelhouse was taken when new. Shows all if the telegraphs etc al all shiny brass. The second photo shows that most of the brass has been painted apart from the rims on the telgraphs and the wheels. Everything was painted, dark green I believed. The QM at the wheel is posing. The engine telegraphs are at Finished With Engines! The brass on the QM is now all shiny brass. That was done in 1967 at Long Beach.


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## Barrie Youde

Brass, glass and brightwork. These things surely are the fundamentals of any well-presented ship? (Workboats and other specialist vessels excepted.) Even the Manchester sludge-boats were always well-presented.

As to brightwork, the principle surely is that if the construction is of good timber (which it usually is), then that timber/woodwork should be shown/presented/used to its best effect? Good timber can be repaired/maintained/ well-presented far more effectively than any formica or plastic, provided only that it is accepted that TLC is required.

At this point there arises, I suppose, the difference between presentation and representation. There is a clear distinction to be made- as any poltician will confirm.

For my own part, if I might ask anybody to represent me, I hope at least that he will look at least half-way respectable.


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## Barrie Youde

#21 

Very many thanks, Stephen.

That is most impressive.

B.


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## Stephen J. Card

Barrie Youde said:


> Ho, bloody Ho!
> 
> A Hoover on the bridge?
> 
> 'Stalmighty? What is the world coming to?




Feather duster likely.

Remember when the Q will a bucket of water, an old cloth and will wipe everything in the wheel. Today, I wonder what they do? Half of the electronics will be down at first smell of moisture.

Forget about brasswork. Where do they find a piece of old flag to polish the bell well? The flags are now some plastic cloth. As for teak decks, none of that any more either. Acres of cruise ship are covered in some plastic brown stuff with black caulking printed on. Can't even find a piece with a doweling marked on it.

If you are luck enough to own your own large yacht it will probably have lots of unvarnished teak, lots of varnish and spotless paintwork and lots of brass and all of the work is done by tall, blond 21 year old female crew. 

Stephen


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## Dickyboy

Barrie Youde said:


> Please allow me to add what a delight it is to see a detailed photograph of a preserved bridge from the Queen Mary era, with magnetic compass and gyro compass standing side-by-side - and not a trace of formica, plastic or other horror in sight.
> 
> Thank you!


In my mind's eye I see the flag-locker, the Kent Clear-view screen (do ships still have, them?), a voice-pipe directly to the Master's bunk, a movement book, several brass telegraphs, a wooden wheel inlaid with brass, a lanyard for the steam whistle, a Willett-Bruce compressed air whistle control, spotlessly scrubbed gratings, a high-chair, etc,etc, and many other things missing from this list - almost all now gone but not forgotten.


As I recall, the flag locker was port side of the wheelhouse, on the after bulkhead, inboard of them were the docking telephones. Port side, just for'd of the door was the radio telephone booth. Telegraphs, engine & docking were both doubled up on both sides of the wheelhouse, as were the brass wheels. The chart table as usual was in the after part of the wheelhouse, and the 1 radar, heads up only in my day, was to the starboard side of the chart table. The helm indicator was on the for'd bulkhead, no digital display on that, or anything else, and it had to be covered with a highly polished perforated plate at night. Wheels were alternated, one used out from Southampton, and the other outward from New York. We boys were allowed to sit on the flag locker when not grafting.


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## Varley

Were I to be representing you, Barrie, you may be sure my brasswork would be burnished appropriately. However on the average day you would bump into me painted over, and with holidays.


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## Barrie Youde

Thank you, David!

Your standards quite clearly are at least half-way respectable - so please carry on!


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## Cisco

Stephen J. Card said:


> Just in case there is no doubt, Queen Mary did indeed have two clearviews in the wheelhouse.
> 
> The first photo if the wheelhouse was taken when new. Shows all if the telegraphs etc al all shiny brass. The second photo shows that most of the brass has been painted apart from the rims on the telgraphs and the wheels. Everything was painted, dark green I believed. The QM at the wheel is posing. The engine telegraphs are at Finished With Engines! The brass on the QM is now all shiny brass. That was done in 1967 at Long Beach.


Two further queries.... one what radar is that in the post war picture? I am assuming it is a 'son of 271'

Also in the original pic I posted ... where the +/- and the '2' can be seen there is also a small arrow.... any thorts?


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## Geoff Gower

*compass variation*

My guess is that due to the East/West passage of the QM, the plus/minus signs are the increment needed to the compass course to allow for the substabntial change in the worlds magnetism field, it changing from something liked 20degrees in USA to zero in UK


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## Barrie Youde

It is the "arrow" thing which puzzles me.

Everything else seems to be perfectly standard, with all details for the magnetic compasses (both steering and standard) shown in the separate black-board on the left, for use with chalk, as appropriate.

The board on the right seems to be purely for gyro-information.

What the "arrow" on the gyro-board might mean, I do not know. It even looks as though it might be permanently fixed in one direction.


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## Stephen J. Card

Ah! I've got it. Is to tell you which wheelhouse door to use if you have to go for a smoke...ie the arrow in the board is saying, "Use the port side door." (the lee door)


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## Barrie Youde

#31 

More than likely!!


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## Barrie Youde

Might it be an ingrained Cunard-WhiteStar custom, revealing, at last, the real cause as to why the Titanic struck the iceberg?

If, instead of being jammed into position and showing that only the port-side wheelhouse door should be open, the arrow had been properly free (thus confirming that either or both doors should be left open), then would Murdoch have had readily greater (and plainly more critical) access to the starboard bridge-wing - and thus identified the iceberg/schmeissberg sooner and thus (just) avoided the tragedy?

Might somebody advance me a million bucks for the publication of the theory?

I am open to offers.

I reserve all rights.

You read it here first!


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## Barrie Youde

#33 

The more thought which might be given to the point, the more it all makes sense.

Some suggest that Titanic and Olympic were transposed with one another for various reasons. Perhaps because Olympic had already collided with HMS Hawke; perhaps because the ashtrays were full. All of this seems highly unlikely.

The evidence of recent years, however, where Harland & Wolff and their successors trade on the frivolity that Titanic "was alright when she left here" merits further examination.

Suppose, just suppose, that the port-side wheelhouse door was the favoured side in the best transatlantic liners: Much then falls into place.

Titanic was berthed port-side-to at Southampton, before she sailed. Check? Check.

Take it back a step further to Belfast and her passage down St George's Channel. Sectarianism was rife at H&W in 1912, with an overwhelmingly Prod workforce. Is it not natural that, when sailing south down St George's Channel from Belfast to Southampton, the favoured view would be towards the devoutly Prod chapels of Wales on the port side? In addition to shutting out the predominantly westerly weather coming in from the starboard hand?

Everything points to a preference being given to the port side, as my learned friend Captain Card identifies.

Gentlemen (and Ladies who might read), I do believe that the latest photographic evidence from Long Beach, fully 106 years late, provides an incontrovertible indication of what actually happened that night.

If Titanic left Belfast with her starboard wheel-house door fixed shut (as the evidence might now suggest), then she was far from "alright when she left here".

Q.E.D.


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## Barrie Youde

Allowing, even, that Queen Mary was built on the Clyde more than twenty years after Titanic was built at Belfast, sectarianism was at least as bad in Glasgow as it was in Belfast; and the passage down to Southampton to take up her regular service-station was, to all intents and purposes, identical to the passage to Southampton undertaken by Titanic, twenty and mor years earlier. Old habits die hard.

Has the lurking secret now been revealed?

Answers on a postcard, please.


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## Barrie Youde

At the risk of appearing to be obsessive on the point, when Olympic and Hawke collided, Hawke struck Olympic on her starboard quarter.

If Olympic had had her starboard wheel-house door open, might not those on her bridge been (even if only slightly) better prepared to take avoiding action?

The plot thickens, does it not?

Perhaps not.


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## Barrie Youde

Was the Titanic disaster in truth a hate-crime?

Should Scotland Yard now be alerted?

Should there be a referendum?


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## Stephen J. Card

Oops! Barrie. I hate to disappoint in this most interesting discussion but.... the bridge on the TITANIC was 'open'. No doors at all! Must have been a hard lot, all open from the weather. The wheelhouse, where the Quartermaster was steering, did have doors, port and starboard, I suspect the doors were open all of the time. Well, otherwise can the OOW shout out commands. The OOW would have had complete access and hinderance from doors. Here a sketch plan of the bridge/wheelhouse as well as photo of the bridge from the film A NIGHT TO REMEMBER. This photo shows that the bridge is almost perfect. Unfortunately the wheel at left of centre is incorrect. The wheel was in the wheelhouse.

Stephen


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## Varley

Does not the excellently executed redundancy offered by two steering transmitters demand that there is a reminder posted as to which is in operation and that the little pointer is for this?


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## Stephen J. Card

That's got to be it!!!

One wheel used on Westbound voyage might have been the 'port' and the 'starboard' wheel used on the Eastbound voyage.

Only thing is, there were THREE wheels... two telemotors and the third was electric attached to gyro repeater. See the photo with the three wheels.

OR... the arrow shows that you are steering courses on the binnacle compass and the right arrow indicates you are steering electric using the gyro repeater. 

Stephen


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## Varley

I had assumed that was the autopilot Stephen. Coupled to the telemotors with electrohydraulics rather than mandraulics.

(Possibly just 'power steering' but surely she would have had an autopilot?)


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## Barrie Youde

#38 

Thank you, Stephen.

Clearly there were doors - thus giving rise to any number of consequences as yet untold!

An alternative means of delivering helm orders on a cold, calm night in mid-ocean would have been to step momentarily into the wheelhouse. How tempting it might have been to linger there - particularly on a dark night with a clear atmosphere, with no other shipping in sight!


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## Stephen J. Card

Barrie Youde said:


> #38
> 
> Thank you, Stephen.
> 
> Clearly there were doors - thus giving rise to any number of consequences as yet untold!
> 
> An alternative means of delivering helm orders on a cold, calm night in mid-ocean would have been to step momentarily into the wheelhouse. How tempting it might have been to linger there - particularly on a dark night with a clear atmosphere, with no other shipping in sight!



He may have gone to the loo.... it was down the alleyway ay least 50 ft. 

They did have two officers on watch on the bridge. One out on the wind or inside the navigating bridge and the junior making tea in the chartroom, just off the wheelhouse. (Or the senior on watch was making the tea to leave the junior out on the wing). 

For passing orders to the QM.... a shout, or there were speaking tubes from inside the navigating bridge to the wheelhouse. A loud shout would be more likely. In any case, the QM would have heard the lookout warning bells. 

As far as loo.... well there was the buckets of sand on the bridge. Nasty thought on the bridge on a gold, freezing night. Almost impossible!

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Varley said:


> I had assumed that was the autopilot Stephen. Coupled to the telemotors with electrohydraulics rather than mandraulics.
> 
> (Possibly just 'power steering' but surely she would have had an autopilot?)



I had an hour on the wheel in QUEEN ELIZABETH when as a Sea Cadet in 1968. I was told to watch the course, not to watch anything else!

Yes, there would have auto pilot but that wheel could also be used for steering, but not likely so we will give it back to you, the arrow was for indicating which wheel was in use or back to the open/closed wheel house doors. ;-) I would have thought a better system of indicating which wheel in use... small wooden toggle hanging over one of the spokes.

Stephen


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## Victor J. Croasdale

I visited the Queen Mary in 1980 when I was in Longbeach on the Loch Maree. Three of us walked over to it, it was further than it looked! We had to wait to be escorted through the hotel part. While we were waiting a guide regaled us with tales of what it was like to eat in rough weather. He was a college or high school kid, we didn't want to burst his bubble so we just listened to his stories with fake wide eyed amazement.


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## Victor J. Croasdale

Hi Stephen Card
Thanks for your pictures of the Sevonia Team.
I was on the Norvegia Team 1977 -78.
Joined in Los Angeles, CA. We went down to Peru and loaded iron ore. Slow steamed to Korea 39 days on passage.


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## Stephen J. Card

Victor,

I was Mate in the MAREE in 1980 May,June, July 1980. 

Was in Long Beach for 'several time' between '77 & '80 in the LOMODN and MAREE. Those closest run ashore for a spot of entertainment and dinner on board, in Sir Winston's. Yes, the guides on board were 'inexperienced'. 

My last visit to the MAREE was in 1982 in Long Beach. She had been sold to Salen as AL SALAMA. I was in Long Beach on holiday and came on board and had a great evening on board... the MAREE! 

Stephen


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## Victor J. Croasdale

I paid off in Sharjah March 1980.
I'd previously been on the Loch Maree in 1977.

There was picture of Al Salama in Oct 2008 Ships Monthly. I wrote in with a letter which was published in Feb 2009 as "Letter of the Month". I won a prize of a book for it, I selected "Mersey Shipping Memories". 
I was from near Manchester and always enjoyed a trip to Liverpool. I was registered at the Merchant Navy Establishment, Mann Island, Pier Head Liverpool.


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## Stephen J. Card

Ah, I was off MAREE in October 79, but was transferred to WELLPARK for four months and did not get back to MAREE until May 80. You must have been with Capt Bill Harvey and Ch Steward Spence Lewis? We were just talking a day or so ago. Spence was trying to tie up some dates at that period. Did you, by any chance, pick up some Ecuadorians? Stowaways? Here a photo believe from that period. Peter Fiskin was 2nd Mate and Chris Irvine was 3rd Mate at the time.

'77 you were in MAREE, was in LOMOND at that time.

I hope you will post your MAREE photos up on Ship Nostalgia! Even the TEAM boats are worthwhile too!

Stephen


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## Victor J. Croasdale

No stowaways. We were on the hook in the estuary for a week to 10 days. Saturday afternoon we dropped a lifeboat and went fishing. We never caught anything, so we traded a couple of cases of beer for fish with some local fishermen.
Most of my pictures were 35mm slides or B&W. I'll look them up, I bought a 35mm digital scanner so I can digitize them when I find them. I have a lot of pictures. 
My mother was a secretary in a junior school in Oldham, fairly early on a class was doing a project about ships and the sea. The teacher asked if they could write to me. so I used to get a big packet from them, every kid in the class would write a letter then the school would post it. I would write back telling where we had been and where we were going. I'd go in when I was on leave and do a slide show and talk to the kids. Kept on doing it until I came ashore in 1981. Actually I went to work in the middle east when I came ashore.


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## skilly57

A few of the Queen Mary wheel house photos I took on August 20th, 2018, whilst my wife and I were staying aboard. We had 3 days in 1st Class, and thoroughly enjoyed it - tours through the gutted machinery spaces (except the aft engine room & steering flat, both of which are still intact), dining in the 'Sir Winston's' restaurant (sited in what was the engineer's quarters above the Verandah Grill). Any rooms we found locked (eg., 1st Class Dining Room, 1st Class Smoking Room, Verandah Grill, etc they instantly opened up for us to get photos (only got around 4-500!!). The crew & security people couldn't have been more helpful.

Sure, it was a little bit expensive, but we were very glad we did it - a great experience. We had travelled from Southhampton to NYC 5 weeks before on the QM2 - thick fog all the way from the Lizard to Verrazano Narrows Bridge. Couldn't get into ER or wheel house - no fun. That's probably why we enjoyed the old QM more.

Obviously, the present crew on QM have no idea of the wear & tear they are causing to the propulsion machinery - they have two shafts going Full Ahead & the other two shafts going Full Astern (on the port-side telegraphs, while the stbd side telegraphs have everything on Full Ahead)!! That would really get the chief to the phone (or voice pipe) in double quick time, especially if it was me!. 

I guess that is an ex-Disney crew member in the black T-shirt! (and NO, that is NOT my wife!). Disney were the first owners I think, but we were told they did all the damage while they had her. The present owners have had her 12 years and are restoring a lot of the rooms that Disney gutted (all the panelling was fortunately still in storage).

And, at least with the mooring telegraphs, the batteries do not go flat as happens with the VHF radio all the time.

And I see the set course has not changed in all the years since the previous photos were posted either!

Skilly


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## Barrie Youde

\51


'Stalmighty!!! and Hell's Bananas!!

Full ahead on one and full astern on t'other for more than a few moments would be sheer madness and desperation aboard any ship! In the interests of reality, has nobody yet pointed this out to the present owners (who appear from your report to be both helpful and anxious to learn)?

They really should be told, gently but firmly.


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## Varley

I think it's all right Barrie. The Engine-Room has got the measure of them if we go by the reply. God knows they'd have to have if they manoeuvre the electricity supply from up there too.


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## Barrie Youde

Thank you, David!

Perhaps the ER might telephone the bridge saying, "It seems right that you should know that the arce end has fallen off."


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## Varley

In Fyffes I sailed with an engineer who had been a senior sixth on QM and had had the whole of one end of a double ended Scotch boiler to look after on standby. On one occasion in the Channel the Chief remarked from the manoeuvring platform that they must have passed Cherbourg by his certain reckoning.

Indeed they had.

Happy New year Barrie et al.


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## Barrie Youde

#55 

And reciprocations to you, my good friend!

Your Fyffe's account reminds me of Richard Gordon's observation in Doctor at Sea, where by the engines of any ship are frequently calculated to arrive in port several hours before the ship!

V best to all,

BY


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## IMRCoSparks

*QMary radar*



Cisco said:


> Two further queries.... one what radar is that in the post war picture? I am assuming it is a 'son of 271'
> 
> The radar was a British Thomson Houston. It had the logo BTH on the chassis. Similar radars were fitted on Sylvania & Caronia.
> The 2nd R/O did the maintenance
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Thomson-Houston
> 
> BTH morphed into AEI and then into Marconi


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## Ron Stringer

Odd how seemingly unconnected things in life can actually link together. In this case, post #56 with its reference to Fyffes and #57 which named BTH as the radar manufacturer.

BTH manufactured a very wide range of products in the UK, most of them having no maritime connection. However after WW1 they pioneered the production of turbo-electric propulsion systems for merchant shipping and supplied several banana carriers to United Fruit Company, the owners of Fyffes. The first of those ships was the ss _San Benito_.


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## Geoff Gower

*corrections needed to a magnetic compass*

Ship's own madnetism induced by steel from where she was bult and "M<agnetic Variation " the worlds magnetic field are but two.


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## callpor

Cisco said:


> This question has been asked elsewhere...
> 
> This is a shot taken on the bridge of Queen Mary at Long Beach.
> 
> The 'course to steer' is simple... but what is the plus/minus above that.. with the little arrow?
> 
> The best I can think of is that it is the gyro error.....
> 
> Any old Cunarders out there with an answer?


Folks,

Have been following this thread with interest? 
As someone who spent 5 years as a navigating officer on Cunard cargo vessels from 1967 to 1971 have been pondering the question posed by Cisco. 
Perhaps the plus/minus refers to "twist"? 
When I first joined Cunard it was the time that the Queens were being disposed of as well as many navigators. Some transfered to the cargo fleet. I was advised by these experienced gentlemen that to counteract the gulf-stream they applied a "twist" allowance of up to +/- 2 degrees to N. Atlantic GC courses. Strangely it worked on the many crossings I made during those years as navigator and our landfalls were generally spot-on.
Hope you all have a prosperous and healthy New Year. Cheers, Chris


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## Stephen J. Card

Barrie Youde said:


> \51
> 
> 
> 'Stalmighty!!! and Hell's Bananas!!
> 
> Full ahead on one and full astern on t'other for more than a few moments would be sheer madness and desperation aboard any ship! In the interests of reality, has nobody yet pointed this out to the present owners (who appear from your report to be both helpful and anxious to learn)?
> 
> They really should be told, gently but firmly.



I suspect the handles are set at the opposite to stop 'visitors' to walk pass the telegraphs so that you don't get you poked in the stomach or the buttocks! Safer to set them all to STOP or FINSHED WITH ENGINES. Both are correct as the ship has not moved for over 50 years and the boilers are 'well cold'!


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## Barrie Youde

#61 

Quite right, too!

Best wishes for New Year, Stephen.

Am fascinated by Chris Callpor's explanation at #60 and I bow immediately to his superior knowledge and Cunard experience.


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## Victor J. Croasdale

METGE 51 years LOL

METGE (Main Engine Turning Gear Engaged)


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## Stephen J. Card

Chris,

You may well remember, or at least, Commodore Geoffrey Marr, last captain of the QUEEN ELIZABETH. Marr retired in 1968, but decided to go back to sea. not on Cunard cargo ships, he went to Fyffe's and was on the banana boats as SECOND MATE!!!!!

Stephen


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## skilly57

METGE - the Stbd Inner shaft turning gear is now 'Stuffed' going by the look of my photos below.

And the boilers aren't just cold - the boiler rooms are all gutted!
Attachments below are of No.2 & No.3 Boiler Rooms, showing naked boiler mountings and some ballast piping that is still in place.

The machinery was all ripped out by Disney, who planned to convert these spaces into conference rooms, etc, but then ran out of money.

Skilly


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## howardang

callpor said:


> Folks,
> 
> Have been following this thread with interest?
> As someone who spent 5 years as a navigating officer on Cunard cargo vessels from 1967 to 1971 have been pondering the question posed by Cisco.
> Perhaps the plus/minus refers to "twist"?
> When I first joined Cunard it was the time that the Queens were being disposed of as well as many navigators. Some transfered to the cargo fleet. I was advised by these experienced gentlemen that to counteract the gulf-stream they applied a "twist" allowance of up to +/- 2 degrees to N. Atlantic GC courses. Strangely it worked on the many crossings I made during those years as navigator and our landfalls were generally spot-on.
> Hope you all have a prosperous and healthy New Year. Cheers, Chris


Hi Chris, Long time no speak! As you may remember I was a contemporary of yours and worked as a navigating officer on Cunard Cargo ships, passenger ships (Sylvania & Carinthia) at the same time as yourself, and including the 2 Cunard ships in ACL - mainly Atlantic Causeway. However, I don't have any recollection of the additional correction that you have mentioned. I only remember the usual, namely Magnetic Compass error (Var & Dev) and gyro error, but when I saw the photos my immediate thought was that it might be a correction for leeway which I remember was always mentioned at change of watch handover. During my time in Cunard I also sailed with quite a few of the older officers from the Queens but I have never come across the "twist allowance" you mention. One of life's mysteries!

Best regards

Howard Anguish


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## Cisco

Many thanks to IMRCoSparks and Callpor for solving not one but two mysteries (Applause)(Applause)


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## Stephen J. Card

Spoke to a good friend, Russell Southern, was First Officer in Queen Mary (Scythia, Caronia, Carinthia, Mauretania, Franconia) in the 50s and 60s. He said the normal course corrections would be done just as you mention above. Any leeway allowance for course would have been done 'on paper' but the course board was for the quartermaster to 'check' the course but the QM would have no reason to or need to know what the leeway was.

Russel was in 'seniority' between Alan Bennel and Robin Woodall. He came ashore as Harbour Master in '68. I took over from him in 1982. One piece of equipment 'disappeared' from the QM ended in the Harbour Master's office was the Admiralty Zig Zag Clock. Nice piece and kept good time. I had to wind it every week. Anyhow, Russell loaned the clock to the QUEEN VICTORIA and is on display on board.

Stephen

Note: He might well be right, but the + - correction answer is probably right!


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## Barrie Youde

#68 

" The QM would have no reason to or need to know what leeway was".

I hesitate to shove my oar in any further, but this is a highly significant and planly truthful observation, previously unmentioned.

The expression "Twist" remains most fascinating!


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## howardang

Barrie Youde said:


> #68
> 
> " The QM would have no reason to or need to know what leeway was".
> 
> I hesitate to shove my oar in any further, but this is a highly significant and planly truthful observation, previously unmentioned.
> 
> The expression "Twist" remains most fascinating!


Of course the QM would have no need to know the Leeway. However, it could have been a visual reminder for the OOW. I only say that because having spent some years on a variety of Cunard ships as OOW I have never come across, or heard of, the twist theory and personally, I think leeway is my choice!


Howard


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## Barrie Youde

I had not previously heard "twist" use as a navigational term.

Did it have anything to do with Mr Chubby Checker?


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## Stephen J. Card

Back to that damn board again! I can easily see how the leeway correction would be allowed. Confusion MIGHT arise on the bridge. The board indicates the numbers '264' and then ' minus 2'. So what is the course to be steered? The obviously it is meant to be '264 GYRO'. The QM would see that and he would steer that. To confuse the QM (or to anyone else on the bridge) it might mean, "I am steering 264." Or does the QM (or anyone else on the bridge) supposed to think, "Ah, the board says 264. The small number says 2 minus so I am supposed to actually 262,not 264, OK... steer 262." Ten minutes into the watch the OOW sees a ship crossing and he calls out to the QM, "Steer 275!". Ten minutes later the OOW calls out, "Steer 264!". The QM has to start thinking again, "Ah, 264, now I have to allow that 2 minus have to be done again." On sure way to get everyone confused. Even worse it is night and the QM cannot even see the board!!!!

Stephen


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## Barrie Youde

#72 

Or perhaps even, "Twist and Shout" ?

The scope for confusion is endless!

An early lesson in pilotage was "beware the economical helmsman"; and that helm orders such as "port easy" or "port a bit" are to be avoided, particularly aboard any large ship such as a Cunarder. The proper helm orders being (as we all know) "Port 5" or "Port 10" etc., culminating eventually in "Midships" and (e.g.) "Steer 264", which the QM knows (or should know) means, "Steer 264 on whichever compass is being used."

Thus, whereas the gyro-error might well be expressed as plus or minus 2 (or 2 high, or 2 low) and noted on the board for the information of the OOW, any leeway (or current/set/drift, which is what "twist" might appear to suggest in the present context) would not normally appear on the board in any event.

For the reason Stephen gives (that the QM cannot see the board at night in any event), helm orders and steering orders (essentially, two very different things*) are necessarily communicated by loud and clear word of mouth in any event - and similarly repeated by the QM to confirm that he has understood the order given.

*Very different things?

In a helm order (Port 10 - Hard a Starboard etc), instant obedience without thought is required of the QM . In a Steering Order ("Steer 264") much concentration and skill is required of the QM.

With apologies to any grandmothers reading here, in respect of whom I might be accused of trying to teach to suck eggs.


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## Cisco

Learnt an early lesson coming out of Ras Tanura as 3/0.... pilot long gone... old man had departed the bridge.. still had man on wheel.....

Steering something like 355*..... 'steer 005*' sez I........ never made that mistake again.....


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## Stephen J. Card

Went through a few books last evening. Found a couple of photo taken of the wheelhouse on board RMS QUEEN ELIZABETH. The 'twist & turn' course board can be clearly seen. Now try to find if the 'twist & turn' board was used on other Cunarders.

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

FRANCONIA 1968. Closeup of the course board. Unfortunately not clear enough to read everything, but there seems to be several little boxes on the board under 'Gyro'.

This photo taken at Bermuda. Group of Sea Scouts on board for a tour. The two Deck Boys were the guides. The one in the far back is me. Age 15 as Sea Cadet sailing in the FRANCONIA for three weeks. Great time. Did some steering time too but most of the time was just polishing the brass. Did some steering in QE as well but I didn't remember the course board. 

Stephen


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## Annmckinnon

I can remember a friend of mine who's father was a "Cunarder" ,Ramsay was his surname,this would have been early 70,s.


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## Barrie Youde

Amongst my prized possessions are four armchairs which were made by Waring & Gillow for Cunard's Franconia of 1923. They are of the kind which would be used at a card-table, as opposed to armchairs which might be part of (say) a three-piece suite.

I acquired them in 1968, when each one had, stamped/stencilled on the underside, the legend "Smoking Room - Franconia". Two of them have been re-upholstered and are not for sale. The remaining two still show the stamp underneath and I would be happy to sell them on terms to be agreed. The two which are for sale are upholstered in their original mid-green leatherette. I like to fantasise that WS Churchill might well have occupied either one at some point, complete with a decent brandy.

In 1967 my future father-in-law was on good terms with the caretaker at Cunard Building in Liverpool where, at the same time, many Cunard artefacts were for sale in consequence of Cunard's relocation to Southampton. It was in those cir***stances that, shortly afterwards, all four were passed to me.

Anybody who might wish to purchase one (or both) please PM me.

Best wishes,


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