# Wheel house mechanisms



## sidnik77

Hi,
can someone identify the parts of the wheel mechanism.
I believe the number that number 3 is the base where it used the compass to sit.
Any idea for the rest?


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## kewl dude

This picture appears to have been taken underwater? While I was a ships engineer now and then I worked on bridge steering mechanisms. I will leave it to a deck person that may have more knowledge but I believe # 3 is something that was named ?????? bars and was used to adjust the magnetic field of the compass. You perhaps should try and find a picture without all the sea growth so you can more clearly see what you are looking at.

Greg Hayden


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## sidnik77

Yes the photo was taken underwater,
it's the ex Thomas Hardie,
a flat iron colier built in 1949,
now lying in the Greek Skopelos island,
where it sank as Christoforos in 1983.
Thanks for the clue about the No3


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## G0SLP

Flinders bars, Greg


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## howardang

1 is the rudder indicator. 
2'the Telemotor
3 Flinders Bar
4 Magnetic steering compass

Howard


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## sidnik77

Thank you,
can you please tell me where a siemens electric helm indicator could have been placed in the room?


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## seaman38

sidnik77 said:


> Thank you,
> can you please tell me where a siemens electric helm indicator could have been placed in the room?


Normally on the for'd bulkhead of the wheelhouse directly in front of the helmsman line of sight and above the centre line window (or porthole on some of the old Liberty and Empire ships)


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## kewl dude

Same on American flag ships I sailed and it had an electric light, that was on a rheostat, so the light level could be controlled.

Greg


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## Barrie Youde

#5 

For the reasons amply set out at #7 and #8 , it seems quite wrong to suggest that the thing numbered "1" is a rudder indicator.

It looks much more like a gyro repeater, complete with a pelorus on top of it.


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## seaman38

The mechanical rudder indicator or more correctly the angle the wheel movement has indicated is the semi circle construction abaft the figure 4 in the photo and directly in front of the wheel, this indicated the angle of the rudder according to the wheel and was usually hard over at 37.5 degrees on either side. This is why an electric rudder was fitted to give the true position of the rudder.

I would tend to agree that #1 is from its position is probably a master gyro repeater for the QM and the structure on top is a magnifier rather than an azimuth, as there would be too many obstructions in its line of sight to make it a useful azimuth. But we have all been on ships where we have said 'Why in Gods name did they put that there!' or words to that affect!!


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## GW3OQK

"1" could be the magnetic Autopilot sensor, which was adjusted to the course to steer and controlled the telemotor attached. 
Andrew


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## seaman38

GW3OQK said:


> "1" could be the magnetic Autopilot sensor, which was adjusted to the course to steer and controlled the telemotor attached.
> Andrew


After penning my #10 I had to go out, and my mind got to wandering about a steamship I served on, she had no gyro, no radar, a tempramental D/F and a wonky echo sounder, but we did have an auto pilot that worked off the magnetic compass, if I remember rightly it was an ARKAS (Swedish or Danish possibly). I had never sailed with one before (or since) its course keeping was not gyro straight but fairly reasonable, but did free up a man for work on deck, which most preferred (except in the higher latitudes!)


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## Barrie Youde

#10 etc

I agree that it might well be an automatic-steering device (rather than a pelorus) on top of the gyro-repater.

Arkas automatic steering I remember on the top of a magnetic compass, but on the top of a gyro, wasn't it more often Sperry or some other?


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## seaman38

Barrie Youde;3011381
Arkas automatic steering I remember on the top of a magnetic compass said:


> I think the most used were the Sperry and the S.G.Brown but it was a long long time ago!(Smoke)


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## China hand

Years ago I met the Mate of the "Darwin" in Montevideo. He told me they prefered the auto pilot on magnetic in heavy weather because it didn't "hunt" the true course so violently but , even though slower, made for a more weatherwise trip.
I think running Monte ~ Falklands they would know plenty of weather.


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## Keith Adams

Just browsing and saw this thread ... no one seems to have answered the original question, although a multiple choice answer was presented with the correct answer included. Item in question is a Flinders Bar.
The binnacle had the port and starboard iron balls and the support case was filled with horizontal steel rods which the Compass Adjuster moved about when the magnetic compass was adjusted, usually after dry dock. The Flinders Bar was a soft iron bar placed vertically in a brass tubular case affixed to the fore part of the binnacle to counteract the ships vertical members such as masts and derricks/ booms. Rather a late response but some one may be interested, hope the questioner didn't need a quick answer !?


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## Keith Adams

Apologies to Howard ... your complete and prompt reply was correct ... being somewhat senile, I jumped to the conclusion you were giving a multiple choice response for we to solve. Sorry ...


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## howardang

Keith Adams said:


> Apologies to Howard ... your complete and prompt reply was correct ... being somewhat senile, I jumped to the conclusion you were giving a multiple choice response for we to solve. Sorry ...


No problem Keith. 

Howard


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## howardang

Barrie Youde said:


> #5
> 
> For the reasons amply set out at #7 and #8 , it seems quite wrong to suggest that the thing numbered "1" is a rudder indicator.
> 
> It looks much more like a gyro repeater, complete with a pelorus on top of it.


Looking more closely, you may well be right. Abject apologies!

Howard


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## Stephen J. Card

I suggest we go back to No. 1 & 2 Not a gyro repeater.

Went through a very Sperry book and nothing looks like a gyro repeater in their works and this is from the 1920s. See: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/52053/52053-h/52053-h.htm 

Also these new photos. Definitely a telemotor and helm indicator. Howard, you nailed it first. Look at the Flinder's Bar... offset and on the after side of the binnacle. Might be an after end steering station. If it was on board a puffer the Bar would be on the aft side too!
Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Howard,

You definitely get the prize for this one. You win a bottle of telemotor hydraulic fluid... might come in red or white, possibly French!

Look at the original photo. You can see the wheel is off set and the axel runs past the binnacle and to the telemotor.

The image here is from wheelhouse of Titanic!

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Thomas Hardie when new.


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## Stephen J. Card

History of the ship Christoforos

(THOMAS HARDIE)

The ship with its 15 crew members left the port of Volos, loaded with 2.600 tons of concrete, early in the morning of the 2nd of October 1983 for the port of Piraeus and final destination Algeria. The weather conditions were good but during the evening became overcast with rains and strong North gales. In the evening the ship had a 7 degrees list to the right which continued to increase as the time was passing by. Due to these conditions, while being 12 nautical miles north of the islet Pontikonisi, the ship changed course for a safe anchor, which with the suggestion of the fishing vessel Giannakis was Panormos in Skopelos island. When it finally arrived in Panormos, at about 16.00 of the 2nd of October 1983 the waves had broken one of the portholes of the bridge. As a result the bridge had flooded and the list on the left had increased in 17 degrees while there was influx of water in the hold No1. The ballast pump and a portable one were used to pump the water but the level of the water in the hold was not lowering. At about 22.00 the list of the ship increased that much that the right gunwale was in the water. The captain contacted the ship owners and the operations chamber of the Ministry of commercial shipping, operations chamber gave order to abandon the ship, while himself, the second lieutenant and a boatswain remained on the ship, with the help of the vessel Giannakis, checked the depths in Panormos to founder the ship. But there where many variations in depth so there was the fear that the ship could split in two. On the 3rd of October 1983 the tries to save the ship were futile so the captain gave order to abandon the ship, boarding on Giannakis vessel.
Christoforos sank in an upright position at about 05.30, in a depth of 43 meters [1].


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## sidnik77

Stephen J. Card said:


> History of the ship Christoforos
> 
> (THOMAS HARDIE)
> 
> The ship with its 15 crew members left the port of Volos, loaded with 2.600 tons of concrete, early in the morning of the 2nd of October 1983 for the port of Piraeus and final destination Algeria. The weather conditions were good but during the evening became overcast with rains and strong North gales. In the evening the ship had a 7 degrees list to the right which continued to increase as the time was passing by. Due to these conditions, while being 12 nautical miles north of the islet Pontikonisi, the ship changed course for a safe anchor, which with the suggestion of the fishing vessel Giannakis was Panormos in Skopelos island. When it finally arrived in Panormos, at about 16.00 of the 2nd of October 1983 the waves had broken one of the portholes of the bridge. As a result the bridge had flooded and the list on the left had increased in 17 degrees while there was influx of water in the hold No1. The ballast pump and a portable one were used to pump the water but the level of the water in the hold was not lowering. At about 22.00 the list of the ship increased that much that the right gunwale was in the water. The captain contacted the ship owners and the operations chamber of the Ministry of commercial shipping, operations chamber gave order to abandon the ship, while himself, the second lieutenant and a boatswain remained on the ship, with the help of the vessel Giannakis, checked the depths in Panormos to founder the ship. But there where many variations in depth so there was the fear that the ship could split in two. On the 3rd of October 1983 the tries to save the ship were futile so the captain gave order to abandon the ship, boarding on Giannakis vessel.
> Christoforos sank in an upright position at about 05.30, in a depth of 43 meters [1].


The above is the official report of the sink of Christoforos,
and it was taken from the book "shipwrecks of the Greek seas" by Admiral Christos Dounis. 
The text has a mistake, the ship was 12 NM East of Pontikonisi, if it was 12 miles North it would have been on Land.


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## sidnik77

Keith Adams said:


> Just browsing and saw this thread ... no one seems to have answered the original question, although a multiple choice answer was presented with the correct answer included. Item in question is a Flinders Bar.
> The binnacle had the port and starboard iron balls and the support case was filled with horizontal steel rods which the Compass Adjuster moved about when the magnetic compass was adjusted, usually after dry dock. The Flinders Bar was a soft iron bar placed vertically in a brass tubular case affixed to the fore part of the binnacle to counteract the ships vertical members such as masts and derricks/ booms. Rather a late response but some one may be interested, hope the questioner didn't need a quick answer !?


Thanks for this, no quick answer was needed


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## sidnik77

Stephen J. Card said:


> History of the ship Christoforos
> 
> (THOMAS HARDIE)
> 
> The ship with its 15 crew members left the port of Volos, loaded with 2.600 tons of concrete, early in the morning of the 2nd of October 1983 for the port of Piraeus and final destination Algeria. The weather conditions were good but during the evening became overcast with rains and strong North gales. In the evening the ship had a 7 degrees list to the right which continued to increase as the time was passing by. Due to these conditions, while being 12 nautical miles north of the islet Pontikonisi, the ship changed course for a safe anchor, which with the suggestion of the fishing vessel Giannakis was Panormos in Skopelos island. When it finally arrived in Panormos, at about 16.00 of the 2nd of October 1983 the waves had broken one of the portholes of the bridge. As a result the bridge had flooded and the list on the left had increased in 17 degrees while there was influx of water in the hold No1. The ballast pump and a portable one were used to pump the water but the level of the water in the hold was not lowering. At about 22.00 the list of the ship increased that much that the right gunwale was in the water. The captain contacted the ship owners and the operations chamber of the Ministry of commercial shipping, operations chamber gave order to abandon the ship, while himself, the second lieutenant and a boatswain remained on the ship, with the help of the vessel Giannakis, checked the depths in Panormos to founder the ship. But there where many variations in depth so there was the fear that the ship could split in two. On the 3rd of October 1983 the tries to save the ship were futile so the captain gave order to abandon the ship, boarding on Giannakis vessel.
> Christoforos sank in an upright position at about 05.30, in a depth of 43 meters [1].


Also the coast guard captain who went on board, before the ship sunk, told me that the crew wanted to abandon the ship, but the captain was not giving the order. The captain of the ship told to the coast guard that he was going to founder the ship on the near beach.
If you go to this little cove, it's majestic, i think it would have been a great disaster to have this beast foundered.
Also thank god it was a diesel ship and not fuel oil one, cause there would have been a disaster for this majestic place.


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## Barrie Youde

#19 

Please, no apologies!

The matter now seems to be confused by Stephen's reference to Titanic. The wreck shown appears to be much more modern than Titanic; and the wreck of Christoforos in 1983 (as reported by Sidnik, the original enquirer) seems to be far more relevant.

Perhaps Item 1 is not a Sperry gyro-repeater. But it certainly looks like a gyro repeater; and there were numerous other makes.


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## sidnik77

Well,
in the hull specification contract i can read,
"Siemens electric helm indicator to be fitted on the bridge bulwark, tachometer to be fitted on the bridge, docking telegraph positioned on port side of E.R. telegraph"
maybe this can help?


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## Barrie Youde

#28 

Thank you, Sidnik.

Yes, it does help.

Whatever item 1 might be, it is plainly not fitted on the bridge bulwark, which non-placement casts further doubt on its identification as a helm indicator.


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## Barrie Youde

May God bless Wikipedia, which tells us that the first gyrocompass for a commercial vessel was developed by C.Plath & Co (a name which I had long forgotten) in 1913. This seems to rule out any suggestion that Titanic might have had a gyro compass.

Perhaps Item 1 as shown is a C. Plath gyro-repeater? Merely a suggestion.


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## Stephen J. Card

This 'thing' is practically the same set up as Titanic. Wheel with shaft running under the binnacle or to the side of it, to the telemotor. The top would be the rudder indicator. Might not be anything at all. The indicator might have fall off over the years. See the Titanic.

A gyro repeater at Position 1 would be quite useless. You would have to look over the binnacle to see the repeater and if the binnacle cover was on, as it would be at night, it would be useless. Even from early years the gyro repeater could be vertically mounted, like most other ships.

Could it be a horizontal gyro repeater to use for taking bearing? Well, this thing appears to be no higher that 36 inches. How do you take bearings from this repeater when you could not see anything, because the bridge dodger is higher. See photos of the THOMAS HARDIE. The wheelhouse is very low but the dodger appears to be normal height... and more than the top of the telemotor pedestal.

Stephen


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## Barrie Youde

#31 

Meaning?


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## Stephen J. Card

It would not be a gyro repeater. In that position and height it would be of no use. It is too low to see anything over the bridge window sill. Item 1 is simply the telemotor and might, or might not have a rudder indicator on top. Wheelhouse gyro repeaters to be used for taking bearing is usually at about 4ft 6 inches height to see through the windows. Navy does on at that height and on the Centreline but then their wheel is somewhere else!

Stephen


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## Barrie Youde

All points noted, Stephen - but the bridge windows are not shown, with height therefore unknown.

I agree that it does look a bit low.


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## seaman38

The flattie I served on (50's/60's) never had a gyro, nor did any of the other Stevie Clarkes at that time as most were on regular runs and all had Decca Navigators (very useful). On the flatties a gyro in the wheelhouse for taking bearings would be useless when in ballast and virtually useless when loaded because of all the internal obstructions (window frames, Kent clear view screens, radar pedestal etc). On a flattie in ballast all you could see was the foc'le head deck because of the way you had to trim them to even half submerge the screw, The only way you could see right ahead was from the extremity of the bridge wings, loaded they were like submarines even with just a hint of inclement weather


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## Stephen J. Card

Barrie,

Here a couple of photos of T. Hardie. 'Low' is an understatement!

I wonder how they could so anything in the wheelhouse. If you were over 5' 06", don't bother apply for a job!

The bulwarks on the wheelhouse seem 'normal'. But I don't think No. 1 was a gyro repeater. Looking at gyro repeaters for horizontal use are mounted in gimbals and the bracket for holding is usually open, not enclosed like in the original photo. Note the dodger on the bridge in front of the wheelhouse windows... fold down! Looks worse!

Stephen


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## sidnik77

seaman38 said:


> The flattie I served on (50's/60's) never had a gyro, nor did any of the other Stevie Clarkes at that time as most were on regular runs and all had Decca Navigators (very useful). On the flatties a gyro in the wheelhouse for taking bearings would be useless when in ballast and virtually useless when loaded because of all the internal obstructions (window frames, Kent clear view screens, radar pedestal etc). On a flattie in ballast all you could see was the foc'le head deck because of the way you had to trim them to even half submerge the screw, The only way you could see right ahead was from the extremity of the bridge wings, loaded they were like submarines even with just a hint of inclement weather


The Decca navigator is mentioned on the contract, 
we have seen that the original general arrangement is not identical with the current ship configuration.
Back then there was a telegraph in the bridge, which was quite cramped,
and a repeater right in front of it on the "balcony" and a compass. Now the bridge occupies the whole deck length and it has a roof. There are two "ears" on left and right, probably for better navigating the ship in harbour, with a telegraph on each of them.
You can see the "ears" here with the telegraphs
http://labtop.topo.auth.gr/wreckhistory/flat-iron-collier-christoforos/#gallery-9-3
and here
http://labtop.topo.auth.gr/wreckhistory/flat-iron-collier-christoforos/#gallery-9-7


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## Barrie Youde

I agree with all of the points raised which suggest that Item 1 is unlikely to be a gyro-repeater, but it still looks like one. If I remember correctly, gimbals would often be found inside the casing which we are looking at.

If both gyro-repeater and helm-indicator are ruled out (for different reasons, all of which are sound) then the purpose of Item 1 remains a mystery. There is always the possibility (even if remote) that Item 1 (whaterver it might be) could have been fitted to the ship after her days as a U.K. flattie had come to an end.


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## Stephen J. Card

Here is a telemotor. It shows the same or very similar of the telemotor on THOMAS HARDIE.

It definitely is the telemotor and the 'bowl at top is simply the topping up tank for the hydraulic oil. The photo shows the attached rudder indicator. It is obviously 'missing' or because the binnacle hides the telemotor, the rudder indicator may have been a wall mounted unit. 
The General Arrangement drawing shows the HARDIE as the wheel with shaft running past the binnacle to the telemotor.

Stephen


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## howardang

Stephen J. Card said:


> Here is a telemotor. It shows the same or very similar of the telemotor on THOMAS HARDIE.
> 
> It definitely is the telemotor and the 'bowl at top is simply the topping up tank for the hydraulic oil. The photo shows the attached rudder indicator. It is obviously 'missing' or because the binnacle hides the telemotor, the rudder indicator may have been a wall mounted unit.
> 
> Stephen


Hello Stephen

The drawing you mention seems to be missing, but you have beaten me to it about the oil reservoir tank. I remember as a cadet filling up the tank when required as part of bridge cleaning duties.

Sorry Stephen - the edits seem to have crossed in the ether and I now see the photo.

Howard


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## seaman38

Stephen J. Card said:


> It definitely is the telemotor and the 'bowl at top is simply the topping up tank for the hydraulic oil. The photo shows the attached rudder indicator. It is obviously 'missing'
> .
> 
> Stephen


The 'rudder indicator' in the photo is not actually a rudder indicator it is an indicator to show how far in degrees the wheel is from amidships, the indicator usually worked by a worm gear fitted to the wheel shaft, the rudder indicator (when fitted) was normally electric and on the for'd bulkhead of the wheelhouse in line of sight of the QM. Depending upon how old the Master or Pilot was the orders normally given were ' ten degrees of helm quartermaster' (master) or '10 degrees of rudder quartermaster (pilot)

I found that Masters normally used 'helm' as they knew their ship and Pilots usually used 'rudder' as every ship was different and the pilot normally only had a sight line to the indicator on the bulkhead and not the wheel indicator in front of the helmsman as he traversed backwards and forwards (P-S and S-P)in the wheelhouse


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## Stephen J. Card

I remember orders from Master, OOW or Pilot varied, depending what we were actually doing.

If the order is Port Ten or Starboard 5 etc might well be rudder. If you said 'Easy' or 'Nothing to Port' would be helm orders.

As far as 'indication' it would be always Rudder, not wheel. Most modern vessels, well, even in the last 50 years, the indicator is for the Rudder, not the helm. If you are leaving a port and you test the steering you check midships, hard port, hard starboard might be back and forth. You would be watching the rudder movements not wheel movement. When the steering is electric it might be 'electric hand', non follow up controllers etc. That said there is usually a 'hard' indication from 'electric hand' from the wheel itself.

Stephen


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## kewl dude

The US Flag ships I sailed both on the Great Lakes and offshore, the deck officer of the watch would telephone the engine room and say "Test Gear". 

The watch engineer would walk to the steering gear room and call the bridge from the phone there. The mate would swing the rudder all the way to one side or the other then swing it all the way to the opposite end while the engineer observed.

Greg Hayden


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## Stephen J. Card

kewl dude said:


> The US Flag ships I sailed both on the Great Lakes and offshore, the deck officer of the watch would telephone the engine room and say "Test Gear".
> 
> The watch engineer would walk to the steering gear room and call the bridge from the phone there. The mate would swing the rudder all the way to one side or the other then swing it all the way to the opposite end while the engineer observed.
> 
> Greg Hayden


Same here. Difference between then and today is the paperwork!

In SEVONIA TEAM... 100,000 dwt OBO you didn't need to be tell if the rudder was moved. The whole superstructure swayed and back with the force of the rudder movement... hard over and back. First time I tested the gear I thought I had broken something!


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## Stephen J. Card

howardang said:


> Hello Stephen
> 
> The drawing you mention seems to be missing, but you have beaten me to it about the oil reservoir tank. I remember as a cadet filling up the tank when required as part of bridge cleaning duties.
> 
> Sorry Stephen - the edits seem to have crossed in the ether and I now see the photo.
> 
> Howard



Howard, I think it works now.

Stephen


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## Engine Serang

Reminds me of Seconds General EK. Hard a Port.


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## OilJiver

Aye aye Mr Harbottle.


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