# Yachtsmen lost in N. Atlantic - merged threads



## Steve Hodges

There is great media interest here in UK about the four yachtsmen missing in the North Atlantic, much of it, I suspect, misinformed. There has been implied criticism of the US Coastguard for calling off their search after two days, and implied criticism of the crew of the Maersk Kure for not "investigating" the upturned hull of a yacht found in the area. My understanding is that they manoeuvred as close as they could to it, gave it a visual inspection but saw no sign of life. Some seem to be implying that they should have gone further.
Perhaps someone with current sea-going experience will enlighten me - is it actually possible to launch and recover a lifeboat in the open ocean from a large modern containership? and would the officers and crew have had any training at all in small boat handling? I fear I know what the answer will be.


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## Pompeyfan

BBC Radio Solent have been reporting the missing yacht.

Link here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27492026


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## Binnacle

Extremely upsetting for the relatives, but I do not understand why the demand is for the US coastguard to conduct a further search unless she was flying the US flag, after all she was in international waters, about 3/4 hours flying time from USA. On receipt of a distress call the USCG responded and carried out a thorough search in difficult weather conditions. (They did rescue one crew) If she was flying a British flag then the call should be for British ships and aircraft to search, or any foreign vessels in the vicinity.


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## borderreiver

Steve Hodges said:


> There is great media interest here in UK about the four yachtsmen missing in the North Atlantic, much of it, I suspect, misinformed. There has been implied criticism of the US Coastguard for calling off their search after two days, and implied criticism of the crew of the Maersk Kure for not "investigating" the upturned hull of a yacht found in the area. My understanding is that they manoeuvred as close as they could to it, gave it a visual inspection but saw no sign of life. Some seem to be implying that they should have gone further.
> Perhaps someone with current sea-going experience will enlighten me - is it actually possible to launch and recover a lifeboat in the open ocean from a large modern containership? and would the officers and crew have had any training at all in small boat handling? I fear I know what the answer will be.


All merchant vessels carry a rescue boat which can be launched and recovered in most seas. Crews are trainined and have to practice frequently.in practice they excise in calm seas.looking at film of the overturned hull its like a borderline case.masters must make a full risk of each time you use this boat.


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## Farmer John

Binnacle said:


> Extremely upsetting for the relatives, but I do not understand why the demand is for the US coastguard to conduct a further search unless she was flying the US flag, after all she was in international waters, about 3/4 hours flying time from USA. On receipt of a distress call the USCG responded and carried out a thorough search in difficult weather conditions. *(They did rescue one crew)* If she was flying a British flag then the call should be for British ships and aircraft to search, or any foreign vessels in the vicinity.


What reason have you for saying this? It doesn't seem to be reported anywhere else.


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## Steve Hodges

borderreiver said:


> All merchant vessels carry a rescue boat which can be launched and recovered in most seas. Crews are trainined and have to practice frequently.in practice they excise in calm seas.looking at film of the overturned hull its like a borderline case.masters must make a full risk of each time you use this boat.


Thank you sir. Is the designated rescue boat an enclosed lifeboat or something different? I too saw the film of the upturned hull - I'm not really qualified to comment, but it looked to me pretty dangerous to try to launch and retrieve anything in that sea.


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## Gareth Jones

The sea temperature must also be bourne in mind. Men immersed in icy water can only live for a very short time something like 30 mins maximum - the water rapidly takes away the body heat. I don't know what the temperature is where the wreck was sighted, but at the end of winter in the North Atlantic ?
I cannot believe anyone would still be alive in an overturned yacht hull deeply immersed.
The only hope would be if they successfully launched their dinghy, and managed to get out of the water.


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## ben27

good day steve hodge,sm,today.06:15.re:yactsmen lost in n.atlantic.thank you for posting this news,i hope they will be sighted.it is not nice out there.wishing them well.regards ben27


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## dannic

A large container vessel, apart from not having the equipment, we no longer have people with the skills to launch in anything other than enclosed waters, unless our own vessel is in danger. Typically the "rescue boat" is identical to the enclosed lifeboat on the other side except the davit winch is more powerful to (in theory) allow a more rapid recovery. To say merchant ship crews are trained in such things is not really correct -we have a training certificate, certainly but as we are not permitted in my present company to lower lifeboats with personnel onboard nowadays (due to the many mishaps) even in enclosed waters, it is a bit of a misnomer.
Also no doubt commercial pressure would come in to play regarding slowing down or stopping on passage.

Dannic


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## Keltic Star

I surveyed a sister boat a month ago for insurance purposes and while adequate for racing around the buoys on a summers afternoon, there is no way an amateur crew should have been so foolish as to try to cross the North Atlantic in such an extremely light construction toy boat.


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## Binnacle

Farmer John said:


> What reason have you for saying this? It doesn't seem to be reported anywhere else.


Reported on UK national TV news -
The French yacht Tao was also in trouble and abandoned, fortunately they manage to get aboard a liferaft dropped by USCG Hercules aircraft which directed ships to locus. 

googled -

http://www.cruisingworld.com/news/c...of-3-sailors-1200-miles-southeast-of-cape-cod


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## richardwakeley

Further in answer to Steve Hodges' question and borderreiver's reply, photos of MAERSK KURE show it has normal davit-launched enclosed lifeboats. Therefore one of these is designated as the 'rescue boat' but, as stated above, would be very unsuitable for launching and recovery by the crew in bad weather, especially from such a large container ship. They are not really even suitable for recovering survivors, having only small hatches and no open deck.
Vessels with Free-Fall Lifeboats are better equipped for such a rescue, as they are required to have a small rescue boat, which is properly designed and manned as such.


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## Bob Murdoch

Ref USCG searching, are not the Oceans divided into areas of responsibility to various nations? What about the English yachty rescued after a number of days down in the Southern Ocean after surviving in the hull, Bullivar or some such. That was Australian rescuers. Also, the vast amount of time and money, to say nothing of risk to life looking for the lost aircraft, again Aussie. 
If the flag of a vessel in distress has any bearing on who looks for it then I am afraid the World has sunk even further than I thought.
Cheers Bob


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## chadburn

It looks as though the Yacht has lost her keel and the only thing showing was her Rudder. If the Yachts keel was starting to break away from the Hull then there would have been a leak before it eventually snapped off. The crux of the matter is where were the Crew when the keel suddenly parted from the Hull. If in the Hull then were they able to get out as they seemed to have made preparations for an abandonment. Hopefully they have managed to survive the sinking. I agree with your last comment Bob, a Search and Rescue situation is All Ships and resources.


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## Boatman25

I find it disgusting the suggestion that it was the responsibility of the British only to look for the yacht when it was closer to other countries, post No3, what a sad world we live in if this is the way we work, everybody no matter what religion, creed or country should answer a distress call immediately, the finer things like costs could be sorted later, I am really disgusted at that suggestion, especially from a mariner, how sad


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## Steve Hodges

My thanks to those answering my question about the practicalities of launching a "rescue boat". I was concerned that the crew of the container ship appeared to be taking flak in the media for not doing something for which they were neither properly equipped or prepared. I do not doubt that had they seen someone in the water they would have tried to get them out, but investigating an overturned yacht hull in mid-Atlantic would have been foolhardy.


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## Satanic Mechanic

Binnacle said:


> Extremely upsetting for the relatives, but I do not understand why the demand is for the US coastguard to conduct a further search unless she was flying the US flag, after all she was in international waters, about 3/4 hours flying time from USA. On receipt of a distress call the USCG responded and carried out a thorough search in difficult weather conditions. (They did rescue one crew) If she was flying a British flag then the call should be for British ships and aircraft to search, or any foreign vessels in the vicinity.


Sorry Binnacle but that qualifies for a....

WTF!!!!!!(EEK)(EEK)


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## Varley

From Keltic Star's assessment of a sister there is a clear possibility that the yacht was unsuitable for the voyage. Should this be the case then why should any MRCC go out of its way to effect what they professionally assess to now be a potential recovery. Just think of the cost of keeping military aircraft aloft for 53 hours.

If the yacht fraternity expect carte blanche with respect to availability and endurance of rescue effort is it not time for some minimum level of regulation to be applied? A simple requirement to be insured for rescue (include in third party - unwaivable risk) would seem a bare minimum. The insurers would then take care of seaworthiness.

It might take a bit of potential heat out of our discussions here too. I am sure the Federal Seascouts have done there very best anyway - finding them alive now would only reveal an error in their assessment method not in their willingness to 'provide succor'. It would also render irrelevant any sleight that the yachties must feel that the professionals consider their difficulties being down to foolhardiness.

(Nonetheless, and of course, I hope they are found safe and well)


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## Pilot mac

Glad to hear that the search has resumed. I wonder what the response would be if a foreign yacht 1000 miles off the uk coast was lost ? 

Dave


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## Steve Hodges

Varley said:


> From Keltic Star's assessment of a sister there is a clear possibility that the yacht was unsuitable for the voyage. Should this be the case then why should any MRCC go out of its way to effect what they professionally assess to now be a potential recovery. Just think of the cost of keeping military aircraft aloft for 53 hours.
> 
> If the yacht fraternity expect carte blanche with respect to availability and endurance of rescue effort is it not time for some minimum level of regulation to be applied? A simple requirement to be insured for rescue (include in third party - unwaivable risk) would seem a bare minimum. The insurers would then take care of seaworthiness.
> 
> It might take a bit of potential heat out of our discussions here too. I am sure the Federal Seascouts have done there very best anyway - finding them alive now would only reveal an error in their assessment method not in their willingness to 'provide succor'. It would also render irrelevant any sleight that the yachties must feel that the professionals consider their difficulties being down to foolhardiness.
> 
> (Nonetheless, and of course, I hope they are found safe and well)


I must agree with all your sentiments. I sail myself a bit, but my time at sea has ensured that I would never, ever underestimate the potential risks of being at sea in a small craft, even in coastal waters. I fear that many yachtsmen now have too little respect for the power of the sea - cheap and instant global communication and over-publicised singlehanded voyages have instilled a false sense of security IMHO. The North Atlantic is no less dangerous because a teenager can sail across it on his own. If I chose my time and place carefully enough I could probably run across all eight lanes of the M25, but that doesn't make it a safe and sensible thing to do.


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## Satanic Mechanic

I suppose we could submit their CVs for scrutiny, or maybe interview the relatives to assess suitability for rescue. 

He has a chiefs ticket

Oh that's good he qualifies for our platinum service

Or is it politically too correct to effect a rescue without vetting, ach well such is society today that we just walk by not caring about those around us. I mean they were white legal Brits does that not count for something, they weren't trying to sneak into the country to claim our benefits.

Right seriously guys almost all of us on here are or have been professional Seamen of some description - we never pass by, we offer assistance, we help search - I was taught that was an inviolate golden rule that was as near to creed as we have. You guys might not but I will still hold on to that without judgement or prejudice .


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## Varley

SM of course we should not pass by. With equal certainty 'our' expenses/loss of earnings/bleed of taxdollars should not go unremarked.

We have had insurance since Lloyd's Coffee House - I was suggesting the leisure fraternity should just catch up a teeny bit.

As for vetting the rescuees. Not a bad idea but the Darwin awards don't usually allow for unfair 'play' at championship level.


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## Binnacle

Gentlemen, perhaps I should have made it clearer I was not referring to actual rescue operations, but what has now become a recovery operation. I have the greatest respect for the USCG and am fully sure they carefully assessed the situation before ending the attempt to save life. Political pressure and diplomacy has now forced them to resume search in the recovery area for bodies. The problem they now face is when to cease this operation without criticism. How long should this resumed search last ?, I'm sure the USCG would like to know. In my opinion extended recovery search time, beyond the accepted practice should be funded by the nation requesting the prolonged recovery search. Having spent some time at sea I am fully aware of the practices and obligations, legal and moral, of mariners in distress situations. In my experience when involved in attempts to save life at sea, when CG announced an end to search it was accepted without question and participating vessels resumed normal passage,


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## anatolian

anyone interested in following this story can go to:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/uk-yacht-cheeki-rafiki-missing-in-mid-atlantic-126406-14.html

It's a thread that has been running for some days and has some good information. The vessel is apparently well equipped and a frequent traveller on the cross Atlantic route. The crew are seasoned and also experienced.


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## Derek Roger

Keltic Star said:


> I surveyed a sister boat a month ago for insurance purposes and while adequate for racing around the buoys on a summers afternoon, there is no way an amateur crew should have been so foolish as to try to cross the North Atlantic in such an extremely light construction toy boat.


I take it Bob that she would have had to take on a lot of supplies to make the voyage . That in itself would have changed how she would be able to operate in the Atlantic . Extra stores ; less sails etc.etc.

Do you think the keel was too light for trans Atlantic crossing . Derek


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## Ken Wood

*Missing yacht crew*

Very sad about the British yacht that foundered in the Atlantic, giving rise to the publicity over the American SAR effort.

I was taken back by the video taken from the Maersk vessel which showed her steaming past the upturned yacht at what looked about 18 knots. No mention of stopping to identify the yacht, or to establish whether anyone was still inside the hull etc. Not having seen any report from the vessel it all seems very bizarre. The weather conditions looked fairly good, so that was not an excuse.


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## ben27

good day ken wood.sm.today.08:23.#1.re:missing yacht crew.i agree with your comments maersk vessel.if we have lost the crew may they rest in peace.regards ben27


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## Keltic Star

Derek Roger said:


> I take it Bob that she would have had to take on a lot of supplies to make the voyage . That in itself would have changed how she would be able to operate in the Atlantic . Extra stores ; less sails etc.etc.
> 
> Do you think the keel was too light for trans Atlantic crossing . Derek


Sure she would have had to take on considerable supplies for the voyage but I doubt if they would have left any of the expensive sail inventory in Antigua. There is no requirement for recreational boats to have a stability booklet and while some manufacturers do an inclining experiment on the Hull 1 prototype, it is very rare that this information is made available to buyers. It's rarer still to find a yachtsman that would be able to read a stability book even if one was available.

Unfortunately, it will never be known what sails they were flying at the time of the occurance but the yellow wellie racing crowd are infamous for over canvassing their boats leading to severe hull and rigging stresses. These racing machines are built with the lightest possible lamination schedule to keep the weight down which leaves little integrity when over stressed. The complete hull is a sandwich cored laminate where on more robust cruising yachts the hull is solid composite or fibreglass bottom with cored topsides.

The keel is a very narrow fin style with a bulbous base, there is little width at the top to form a decent area for the keel bolt backing plates. Over stressing in heavy weather could easily cause the keel/hull joint to start to delaminate leading to water ingress and eventual loss of the keel.

Its all very well for the yachting fraternity to say that these types of boats cross oceans regularly without an accident but records show that there is a high incidence of hull fractures, keel losses and or rigging losses caused by chain plates tearing from the hull.

Some years back, I looked at using a similar laminate system for use with high speed patrol craft. Green Marine in Lymington kindly gave me a tour of their facilities while they were building some of the Volvo Ocean Race boats. 

They were very open about their technology and their strong advice was to forget about it as the hulls were similar to egg shells, strength by shape but even a light side impact would crack it. Putting a light within the almost translucent hulls clearly revealed the silhouettes of the workers within.


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## Pompeyfan

Debris has been found. BBC Radio Rolent has just been speaking live to Patrick Michel who found the debris. Link here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27514568


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## Leratty

all comes within the risk of ocean sailing. Not to stop & at least investigate is a concern. Maybe that is the modern seafarers way like aircraft they, even the container ships have a set schedule to keep & woe betide the master who deviates from same?


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## jep1916

*Missing Yacht Crew*

I also thought it was very strange that the Container Ship did not stop and investigate. The ship passed extremely close to the over turned yacht hull and I expected it to stop or at least slow down. I was on a TK Tanker in 1994 and involved in a yacht crew rescue and it didn't take long to get them on board. The yacht had sunk and the crew were in a life raft. We just slowly pulled up, made a lee and put a rope net over the side and up they came. Hardly lost any time at all.
Have the owners of the Container Ship made any comment as to why they failed to investigate ?


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## LouisB

Leratty said:


> all comes within the risk of ocean sailing. Not to stop & at least investigate is a concern. Maybe that is the modern seafarers way like aircraft they, even the container ships have a set schedule to keep & woe betide the master who deviates from same?


Was always under the impression that an obligation existed to assist other mariners in distress or danger. Maybe an impression was all it was??

LouisB. (Scribe)


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## anatolian

http://maersklinesocial.com/statement-on-the-search-and-rescue-sar-of-cheeki-rafiki/
This is the link




jep1916 said:


> I also thought it was very strange that the Container Ship did not stop and investigate. The ship passed extremely close to the over turned yacht hull and I expected it to stop or at least slow down. I was on a TK Tanker in 1994 and involved in a yacht crew rescue and it didn't take long to get them on board. The yacht had sunk and the crew were in a life raft. We just slowly pulled up, made a lee and put a rope net over the side and up they came. Hardly lost any time at all.
> Have the owners of the Container Ship made any comment as to why they failed to investigate ?


This is their statement. They were told by the coastguard to move on.
This confirms that it was the US Coast Guard that instructed the Maersk Kure to move on. 


Please note: RCC stands for US Coast Guard Rescue Coordination Center, SAR for Search and Rescue


Maersk Line Social :: Statement on the search and rescue (SAR) of Cheeki Rafiki

Statement on the search and rescue (SAR) of Cheeki Rafiki

Nina Marie Skyum-NielsenGlobal Community Manager20/05/2014

We have talked to the owners of Maersk Kure and can share below info on this weekend’s Search and Rescue (SAR): On Saturday morning, 17 May, Maersk Kure, a chartered container vessel owned by Costamare in Greece, received a request from the U.S. Coast Guard’s Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) in Boston to assist with a Search and Rescue (SAR) Operation for sailing yacht Cheeki Rafiki. Maersk Kure deviated to the area, where the RCC believed the yacht was positioned. During the SAR, Maersk Kure spotted an object which looked like the hull of a sailing boat. Maersk Kure reported this to the RCC. Maersk Kure was advised by the RCC to continue the SAR at another position. On Sunday morning, 18 May, the RCC informed Maersk Kure that the Search and Rescue Operation was suspended and Maersk Kure should proceed to its port of destination. 
- See more at: Maersk Line Social :: Statement on the search and rescue (SAR) of Cheeki Rafiki


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## Hamish Mackintosh

anatolian said:


> anyone interested in following this story can go to:
> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/uk-yacht-cheeki-rafiki-missing-in-mid-atlantic-126406-14.html
> 
> It's a thread that has been running for some days and has some good information. The vessel is apparently well equipped and a frequent traveller on the cross Atlantic route. The crew are seasoned and also experienced.


Thanks for the link Anatolian gives some good insight into the construction especially in the keel area


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## anatolian

Thanks Hamish.
For what it's worth, they appear to have excluded the debris found earlier today as coming from the missing yacht:

3:50pm, Thu 22 May 2014Debris spotted in search for British yachtsmen
US Coast Guard: No debris matching Cheeki Rafiki
Last updated Thu 22 May 2014World



In a statement released today, US Coast Guard officials have said that no debris has been found in the search for the missing yachtsmen that "correlates to the Cheeki Rafiki."

A wooden plank and foam had previously been spotted by a captain involved in the search for the four British sailors, and the sighting was reported to the US Coast Guard.

“
"We take reports of debris very seriously and, at this time, no debris or objects reported during this search correlate to the Cheeki Rafiki."
– Captain Anthony Popiel, 1st Coast Guard District Chief of Response
Search teams have covered an area spanning 12,000 square miles since resuming the search on Tuesday.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-05-22/us-coast-guard-no-debris-matching-cheeki-rafiki/


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## KEITHMAR

I am. as I often am. In total agreement with You The Masters that I sailed with in NZS; /FED/ P:O would NOT have sailed by!.....Surely ANY human life is worth trying to save? .......However I hear rumours that IF Mr. C and His Lot have their way (post 2015?) A small boat owner in distress in U:K:waters will have to wave a CREDIT CARD!!to attract attention.......food for thought? Regards to You and All KEITHMAR


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## KEITHMAR

I sent this in response to your post S:M .....sorry


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## anatolian

apparently 'no keel; only a slight steering problem'
Worth a look.
http://www.wavetrain.net/news-a-views/190-charter-boat-loses-keel-and-no-one-noticed

we haven't given up on these guys, have we?


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## sidsal

A couple of very experienced ocean yachtsmen tell me that the yacht was'nt really suitable for an ocean crossing.OK for weekend racing etc but not for crossing the "pond"


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## Binnacle

*Yacht Hull Found by US navy*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27551917


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## TC2

Pilot mac said:


> Glad to hear that the search has resumed. I wonder what the response would be if a foreign yacht 1000 miles off the uk coast was lost ?
> 
> Dave


HM Coastguard would carry out a full search if it was within the UK SAR area. All sea area are designated search areas and are allocated to the various countries bordering them.


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## ben27

good day binnacle.sm.today.07:01.#41.re:yacht hull found by us.navy.thank you for posting this good news,there may be a chance there are survivors if they got there raft away.we can only hope.regards ben27


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## Ron Stringer

According to the BBC news today, the upturned, keel-less hull was found on Friday by a US warship. A navy swimmer was able to determine that the cabin was flooded and the windows were smashed and although he was able to knock on the hull down to about 1 metre below the surface, there was no response.

The liferaft was still stowed and there were no signs of life.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27553902

A sad outcome.


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## RHP

Having found the hull, will there be an investigation? Will other yachts of the same class be recalled for inspection? If car manufacturers have to do recalls, why don't boat builders?


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## todd

From what I have seen the stowage of the inflatable raft was in the transom space and if the vessel was upside down the hydrostatic release would have been ineffective. 
The reports stated that the crew had informed everyone that they were having difficulty and taking on water, I would have thought that they had ample time to get the raft 'free and clear' in case the unthinkable happened.
You would not believe the number of this type of raft that I have seen that had been 'tied/lashed down' to prevent accidental discharge.
RIP... Lads, I cannot say anything else.

Jim


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## Varley

I wonder if hydrostatic releases should be applied more selectively.

A proper ship filled with water must sink and in 'deep water' will certainly descend the 4 metres required to trip the release.

Not all constructions will do the same? The wreckage here was upturned, water logged but still afloat. I doubt the raft was 4 metres below the surface.

What about another form of automatic release?

(In the bath afterthoughts. Maybe they generally do not have hydrostatics. Maybe with keel she would have sunk. Perhaps root anchor of the strapping could be arranged to fail with the keel fixing arrangement).


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## enzoneo

Keltic Star said:


> I surveyed a sister boat a month ago for insurance purposes and while adequate for racing around the buoys on a summers afternoon, there is no way an amateur crew should have been so foolish as to try to cross the North Atlantic in such an extremely light construction toy boat.


Well said - this wasn't a blue water boat by any stretch of the imagination. Surely if the crew had experience of the Atlantic in all weathers they wouldn't have put to sea - would they?


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## Farmer John

Are we gaining anything from these comments? We all know the sea is savage, it can bite anyone who is on it.

Close the thread?


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