# US Navy returns to celestial navigation amid fears of computer hack



## callpor (Jan 31, 2007)

Interesting headline in the news today which may add to our debates and concerns about maritime automation which relies on GPS. The full article can be read at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...l-navigation-amid-fears-of-computer-hack.html


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## borderreiver (Oct 11, 2008)

About time as well. Also other back up ie using radar ranges and a compass. mark one eye ball.


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## Farmer John (Feb 22, 2012)

With increased accuracy of even simple time pieces it really is not that difficult to do, I have still got my Noddies Nautical Tables, someone must produce almanacs. It does depend how accurate you want it and how frequently, and of course GPS is "inside" so many other things.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

borderreiver said:


> About time as well. Also other back up ie using radar ranges and a compass. mark one eye ball.


I fully agree with your comments. (Applause)


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## Scelerat (Sep 18, 2012)

Keltic Star said:


> I fully agree with your comments. (Applause)


One of the joys, to me, of being a Second Mate was the celestial navigation part of the job. Having a Master happy to rely on my celestial navigation for crossing the Pacific or Atlantic was always a pleasure. After the universal introduction of Satnav, I used to test my morning and noon sights on a daily basis on ocean passages, and was rarely significantly out. On one passage, on Denholm's "Friendly Carrier" an incident in the ER led to all of the electronic instruments on the bridge becoming inoperable for some weeks; the Master considered himself to be fortunate that he had an apparently "unemployable" (as some have suggested) Second Mate who saw this as an opportunity rather than a disaster, and who was able to help the Third Mate who had never taken a sight in anger before.


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## John Cassels (Sep 29, 2005)

Farmer John said:


> With increased accuracy of even simple time pieces it really is not that difficult to do, I have still got my Noddies Nautical Tables, someone must produce almanacs. It does depend how accurate you want it and how frequently, and of course GPS is "inside" so many other things.


Accuracy of time pieces not really the most important point.
Nobody will ever convince me that taking a sextant reading from a
bridge wing on a ship rolling and pitching and with a "fluid "horizon
is an accurate method of finding ones position.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Not, I hope, the cited techniques of Odysseus or Columbus unless we want to many senior officers to emulate the late Sir Cloudesley Shovell.

The recent dramatisation of 'Longitude' made rather a fool of Rev Maskelyne which further reading suggest was very far from the truth. Can any of you guys determine Longitude by his method (and was the Mate's 'Star' doing this?).

Latest Antiquarian Horology journal has a feature on electrical chronometers all very much more elaborate then the one I have, badged K-H and an ordinary quartz clock with the hand adjuster removed). What did surprise me quite a bit was that I cannot remember sailing with anything but the clockworkery type despite the early advent of them). Even then I would have put the Seiko and Citizen Master clocks that were frequently fitted up against the chronometer for both accuracy and consistency of error (I can't get my salvaged Citizen anything like accurate but the Seiko goes very well).


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

John Cassels said:


> Accuracy of time pieces not really the most important point.
> Nobody will ever convince me that taking a sextant reading from a
> bridge wing on a ship rolling and pitching and with a "fluid "horizon
> is an accurate method of finding ones position.


Winter North Atlantic was often DR all the way until the echo sounder picked up the Continental Shelf and one could get a bearing from VOCM radio station in St. John's, Newfoundland. Sextants were redundant.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

John Cassels said:


> Accuracy of time pieces not really the most important point.
> Nobody will ever convince me that taking a sextant reading from a
> bridge wing on a ship rolling and pitching and with a "fluid "horizon
> is an accurate method of finding ones position.


Spot on John, I did a number of WNA trips as I wanted to spend my Summers at home and often had a wander up to the Bridge, your comment rings very true.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

The _*Cairngowan*_ left Quebec city on 10 December 1964 for Grangemouth (via Pentland Firth) where we arrived 20 December. We never saw the sun or stars at any time during the voyage. The only available navaids on board were the _Lodestone_ direction finder and the echosounder, until we came in radar range of the Scottish coast.

The mates' DRs were about 40nm out when we did make radar contact. The DF bearings from Butt of Lewis had been spot on but nobody on the bridge would believe them until several hours later when the radar confirmed our position.


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## Duncan112 (Dec 28, 2006)

Hopefully this will remove once and for all the sillyness proposed recently of abandoning astronomical time in favour of atomic time.


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## borderreiver (Oct 11, 2008)

Was on a ore carrier 7 islands to Liverpool back and forward for a whole winter. We had decca which was a great help. again Gray sky overcast all the time. 2 mate was one of those profession 2 mates who dr were spot on which inc slow steaming in fog and ice berg conditions. radar in those days were very much hit and miss. Decca was not always accurate.


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## slick (Mar 31, 2006)

All,
Did anyone come across or use Olsen's Fisherman's Charts with a mixture of LORAN and the Decca Scottish chain red lane(?).
Terrific in the North Atlantic.
Apologies for incorrect names etc, anno domini etc.

Yours aye,

slick


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## Scelerat (Sep 18, 2012)

borderreiver said:


> Was on a ore carrier 7 islands to Liverpool back and forward for a whole winter. We had decca which was a great help. again Gray sky overcast all the time. 2 mate was one of those profession 2 mates who dr were spot on which inc slow steaming in fog and ice berg conditions. radar in those days were very much hit and miss. Decca was not always accurate.


My late father did one of those on an orebasher, Souter's "Longstone", Seven Islands to the Clyde reliant on DR both ways. My little brother did a return crossing on her, and _*still*_ went to sea!


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## callpor (Jan 31, 2007)

Thanks to Dennis Bryant in his maritime blog today for the full story. It can be accessed at http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=91555


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## borderreiver (Oct 11, 2008)

With a one of these elec pulses could take out or the calculators so navigaters should be able to use log tables. and havsines . use of nores tables.


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

borderreiver said:


> With a one of these elec pulses could take out or the calculators so navigaters should be able to use log tables. and havsines . use of nores tables.


Whilst celestial nav is still taught in the UK to a very limited depth, indeed often as basic as a "pro forma", when it comes to calculating method they're all taught to use a calculator and so invariably have never heard of the log/haversine/ABC tables.
A couple of years back I sailed with one young 2/O who was a Uni graduate before going to sea, served his time in a well run "household name" company (and is now a C/O in cruise ships) and he was adamant celestial nav was a load of nonsense because he'd never worked out a sight that was as accurate as his worked out DR. To set the scene, as is the norm today he was working out his DR's in a ship where they follow a GPS "red line" course over the ground and adjust engines (CPP) to ensure the average speed is maintained to within a decimal point or two of that required to meet the ETA. 
Now whilst the latter part of this statement was technically correct (assuming your DR workings are correct), he simply couldn't comprehend why that was the case and why things would be significantly different if there wasn't a "red line" to slavishly follow and a constant eye in the sky to tell you where you were to an accuracy of 10 metres. 
With such a basic lack of understanding in what's going on, especially amongst many individuals who are already at Senior Officer level, then what chance is there when the proverbial hits the fan?


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

On occasion when sailing across the North Atlantic I would remove the fuses from the Sat/Nav and have the mates take sights. My ears would ring but in the end they became competitive about getting a fix and they appreciated the skill that later on became nearly extinct


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## borderreiver (Oct 11, 2008)

I always enjoyed taking stars. one of my life long ambition is to have a star position on the chart before sunset. I come very close but not quite got there.


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## ninabaker (May 4, 2012)

James_C said:


> Whilst celestial nav is still taught in the UK to a very limited depth, indeed often as basic as a "pro forma", when it comes to calculating method they're all taught to use a calculator and so invariably have never heard of the log/haversine/ABC tables.
> A couple of years back I sailed with one young 2/O who was a Uni graduate before going to sea, served his time in a well run "household name" company (and is now a C/O in cruise ships) and he was adamant celestial nav was a load of nonsense because he'd never worked out a sight that was as accurate as his worked out DR. To set the scene, as is the norm today he was working out his DR's in a ship where they follow a GPS "red line" course over the ground and adjust engines (CPP) to ensure the average speed is maintained to within a decimal point or two of that required to meet the ETA.
> Now whilst the latter part of this statement was technically correct (assuming your DR workings are correct), he simply couldn't comprehend why that was the case and why things would be significantly different if there wasn't a "red line" to slavishly follow and a constant eye in the sky to tell you where you were to an accuracy of 10 metres.
> With such a basic lack of understanding in what's going on, especially amongst many individuals who are already at Senior Officer level, then what chance is there when the proverbial hits the fan?


Yup. I had a similar conversation with a ridiculously young RN officer on one of the new D destroyers in Glasgow. I asked what they did if the satnav went down and he wittered on about DR. I later asked the captain about this and he confirmed that their navigating specialist officer did know how to do sun/star sights and practiced occasionally. He also agreed that this is a somewhat 'perishable' skill and needs frequent practice to keep accurate. Not at all like riding a bike in terms of skill-memory.
nina


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## Ystradgynlais (Nov 2, 2013)

Can we bring back Morse code too? I'm ready and available. Wouldn't it be lovely to bring back the maritime industry to the fifties!


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

borderreiver said:


> Was on a ore carrier 7 islands to Liverpool back and forward for a whole winter. We had decca which was a great help. again Gray sky overcast all the time. 2 mate was one of those profession 2 mates who dr were spot on which inc slow steaming in fog and ice berg conditions. radar in those days were very much hit and miss. Decca was not always accurate.


Unfortunately Decca did not cover the North Atlantic but sure comforting on the Grand Banks.


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## John Cassels (Sep 29, 2005)

Keltic Star said:


> Unfortunately Decca did not cover the North Atlantic but sure comforting on the Grand Banks.



On the Grand Banks - you mean Loran ?.


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## borderreiver (Oct 11, 2008)

Correct me if I am wrong but seem to remember that your dr position had be fairly accurate before you could get the decca set up.

There was some pictures on this web site showing RN OUT on a rfa ship or of the Roll offs ships with a RAF officer undergoing sun sights training.
How far they would get using logs and havsines is another question.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Ystradgynlais said:


> Can we bring back Morse code too? I'm ready and available. Wouldn't it be lovely to bring back the maritime industry to the fifties!


In one way I agree entirely.

Larger bandwidth has allowed ships to obtain prompt access to expertise ashore affordably.

Unfortunately it has also allowed the transfer of more mundane communications from the mails to the emails. To the point at which the general husbanding of the vessel must now be conducted over radio. Every Tom, Dick and office Harry having access to a very small number of human recipients onboard.

To be able to manage a vessel using the radio only for a very small number of time important informations/instructions is a skill that seems lost. Divorcing the high bandwidth traffic to that between machines and reverting to expensive (and therefore more appreciated) techniques might bring it back.


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

borderreiver said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but seem to remember that your dr position had be fairly accurate before you could get the decca set up.
> 
> There was some pictures on this web site showing RN OUT on a rfa ship or of the Roll offs ships with a RAF officer undergoing sun sights training.
> How far they would get using logs and havsines is another question.


I think you mean this photo, taken aboard ANVIL POINT.

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/350288/title/where-27s-the-sun-3f/cat/500


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## borderreiver (Oct 11, 2008)

Yes that the one. Always feel the RN calculation side needs tighten up. filling a USA type form is not my way. I do not mind using the aero tables but the user must be aware of the formula is not as accurate as it should be is using a bodys with dec of 60 plus


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## Ystradgynlais (Nov 2, 2013)

Thank you Varley - it was written, obviously with tongue in cheek - that is the cost of progress! Bringing every one down to a common denominator - I now understand Mr Ludd's concerns many years ago, when he advocated the smashing of machinery coming into service in the textile industry! Nothing has changed! Un-employment greater, top executives on multi-million pay packets with no people to buy the goods produced one way or other, under the guise of progress! Back to serfdom . . . Stop the world, I want to get off!


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## Binnacle (Jul 22, 2005)

John Cassels said:


> On the Grand Banks - you mean Loran ?.


I presume he is referring to Canadian Decca Chains -
7C Nova Scotia
2C East Newfoundland 
6B Cabot Strait

God Bless Canada, at one time they had 6 Chains to aid the weary traveller.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Ystradgynlais said:


> Thank you Varley - it was written, obviously with tongue in cheek - that is the cost of progress! Bringing every one down to a common denominator - I now understand Mr Ludd's concerns many years ago, when he advocated the smashing of machinery coming into service in the textile industry! Nothing has changed! Un-employment greater, top executives on multi-million pay packets with no people to buy the goods produced one way or other, under the guise of progress! Back to serfdom . . . Stop the world, I want to get off!


Of course. I am used to being accused of hanging on Mr. Ludd's coat tails but I do not. I would no more use a hand loom for making a run of bog mats to sell at Poundland than I would a Jacquard loom for darning my socks. It is horses for courses and presently it seems there is only room for Arkles and not drays.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Binnacle said:


> I presume he is referring to Canadian Decca Chains -
> 7C Nova Scotia
> 2C East Newfoundland
> 6B Cabot Strait
> ...


Thanks Binnacle for the confirmation, Decca it was John. Unfortunately the added luxury of Loran was after my time.


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## John Cassels (Sep 29, 2005)

Keltic Star said:


> Thanks Binnacle for the confirmation, Decca it was John. Unfortunately the added luxury of Loran was after my time.


Maybe it's a case of the memory playing up but I honestly do not remember a Decca chain on the Canadian coast. Do remember well the countless times looking for the entrance to Belle Isle in murky weather. The ore carriers had Decca but don't recall using it over there.


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## Binnacle (Jul 22, 2005)

Keltic Star said:


> Thanks Binnacle for the confirmation, Decca it was John. Unfortunately the added luxury of Loran was after my time.


Having obtained ice details from USCG on ice patrol, we approached the Canadian ice edge with confidence having plotted the positions on Decca charts. No sights crossing the Atlantic, no Loran, no W/T, That was 1972, worst year for ice since the Titanic. Decca was worth it's weight in gold.


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

Full Re instatement of Celestial Navigation will interfere with the 'equality' agenda designed to afford the same chances to fools as to wise men.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

NoR said:


> Full Re instatement of Celestial Navigation will interfere with the 'equality' agenda designed to afford the same chances to fools as to wise men.


Will women, like the Amazons of ancient Greece or somewhere, have to lop of one of their jugs in order to use a sextant?

Once more the oceans will resound to the stentorian voices of Old Men: "What time's noon, Third Mate?"

John T


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

trotterdotpom said:


> Will women, like the Amazons of ancient Greece or somewhere, have to lop of one of their jugs in order to use a sextant?.........
> John T



A sports bra would probably do the job.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I don't see how one would take sight with one of those.


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## ART6 (Sep 14, 2010)

As a simple spanner wielder I am out of my depth in a thread like this, being unable to navigate with confidence from my bedroom to my kitchen, but when unmanned ships are finally introduced, who will take the noon sights? Will there be some sort of robot waddling around with a sextant? If not, then what happens when the next solar burst knocks out a few satellites? I can just imagine the Windows 10 embedded control software on a VLCC trying to email head office with "Where the f**k am I?" and receiving the message "Your mail cannot be delivered at this time -- server cannot be identified." 

Continuing this thought process: if ships are to be increasingly manned with reduced crews, and staffed with a couple of mates who have never taken a sight in their lives but are supported by on-line instantaneous communication with head office, can the more experienced controllers in that head office take a noon sight (whatever that is) two thousand miles away?

Since coming ashore I have spent years of my time developing industrial control systems for large process plants, and I have learned the bitter lesson that when the s**t hits the fan the control system will choose to fail at that very moment. Then, there had better be some guy or girl who knows what to do without it. (Thumb)


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## borderreiver (Oct 11, 2008)

ART6 said:


> As a simple spanner wielder I am out of my depth in a thread like this, being unable to navigate with confidence from my bedroom to my kitchen, but when unmanned ships are finally introduced, who will take the noon sights? Will there be some sort of robot waddling around with a sextant? If not, then what happens when the next solar burst knocks out a few satellites? I can just imagine the Windows 10 embedded control software on a VLCC trying to email head office with "Where the f**k am I?" and receiving the message "Your mail cannot be delivered at this time -- server cannot be identified."
> 
> Continuing this thought process: if ships are to be increasingly manned with reduced crews, and staffed with a couple of mates who have never taken a sight in their lives but are supported by on-line instantaneous communication with head office, can the more experienced controllers in that head office take a noon sight (whatever that is) two thousand miles away?
> 
> Since coming ashore I have spent years of my time developing industrial control systems for large process plants, and I have learned the bitter lesson that when the s**t hits the fan the control system will choose to fail at that very moment. Then, there had better be some guy or girl who knows what to do without it. (Thumb)


Some time ago I had to do a pier head jump on to a gas ship to bring her back across the big pond. a set of charts come with me. we had a mod one sat nav position between 40 mins and 4 hours. started taking sights only to find the Germany tables had a different system to our havsines. Rung head officer got hold of the German marine super who just laughed so back to basic remembering our basic trig and the quadrants ie which - and plus sign go were and away we were.


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

Varley said:


> I don't see how one would take sight with one of those.


Be fun watching though.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

John Cassels said:


> Maybe it's a case of the memory playing up but I honestly do not remember a Decca chain on the Canadian coast. Do remember well the countless times looking for the entrance to Belle Isle in murky weather. The ore carriers had Decca but don't recall using it over there.


My era was 1959 to 1965. I well remember one night westbound into the Belle Isle Strait to find 26 icebergs showing on the radar and God knows how many not giving an echo.


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## howardang (Aug 3, 2008)

Keltic Star said:


> My era was 1959 to 1965. I well remember one night westbound into the Belle Isle Strait to find 26 icebergs showing on the radar and God knows how many not giving an echo.


There was a chain but it was not particularly helpful. The cuts were quite fine so it gave an approximation of position and you still needed to use more basic clues such as lines of soundings and DF bearings off the local radio stations.

Googling found this which is an excerpt from a longer article about Decca in Canada.

"_The first Decca Chain in Canada was installed in 1956 to fulfill high accuracy survey requirements of the Department of National Defence (Royal Canadian Navy) and the United States Navy over an extensive area off the south coast of Newfoundland. The Decca hyperbolic system was selected in preference to the Lorac System which had been used worldwide for survey control since 1952 by the U.S. Hydrographic Office. 

Chain 6B (the RCN chain) was sited along the south coast of Newfoundland between Cape Ray and the Burin Penninsula and some use of the chain was made by TransAtlantic merchant shipping on an experimental basis during 1957. 

In 1956, the Decca Navigator Company and Computing Devices Company proposed to the Department of Transport the installation of a Chain in Nova Scotia on a trial basis to determine user demands. The latter agreed to this two year trial, at no cost to the Department and Chain 7C was installed in 1957, (190 Series equipment) An authorized number of vessels - mainly fishing vessels, were fitted with Mk V receivers as soon as the chain was in operation in August 1957 and lattice charts were available. TransAtlantic shipping bound to and from east coast ports were of course already fitted with Decca receivers for navigation in European waters and could also take advantage of the Nova Scotia Chain. It is emphasized that this was all activated as a private venture in Canada at considerable financial risk and with no guarantee of permanency. Any possibility of permanency depended upon user acceptance. 


_Howard


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