# Ss Sagaing



## JMB (May 2, 2007)

I happened to notice a grave on the West coast of Scotland last week.

Peggy James and two infants lost at sea on SS SAGAING on 19th October 1939.

I looked the names up on the CWGC index but not there so looked up the ship.

It has a mention after the Japanese enter the war but I found this.



> Wednesday, 18 October
> In submarine operations against convoy HG.3, steamers SAGAING (7968grt), GARBRATTAN (1811grt), CITY OF GUILDFORD (5157grt) and CLAN MCBEAN (5000grt) reported they were attacked on the 18th but undamaged. Destroyer ESCORT joined SAGAING and escorted her from the area.


I presume there must have been some loss of life even though the ship is reported undamaged?

MB


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## riversea (Jul 19, 2007)

Nothing noted in the 1939-1945 war losses except her eventual loss in Far East in April 1942. Could have been an incident unconnected with the attack e.g. tragic accident on board?


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

I have now heard from a relative of the family.

On the night of 19th October there was a loud thump and passengers took to the lifeboats and many were lost at sea. There are reports of submarines in the area but none of torpedoes being fired at the SAGAING. 

Some lifeboats, but no bodies, were said to be washed up on the Cornish or Devon coast.

It is all a bit vague and confusing.

MB


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## C.R.SCRUBY (Jan 11, 2016)

Hi
My name is Mr CR Scruby
I was on said ship as an 9 year old child, as a passenger
If still posting please let me know


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

C.R.SCRUBY said:


> Hi
> My name is Mr CR Scruby
> I was on said ship as an 9 year old child, as a passenger
> If still posting please let me know


Have you been in touch before?

I think I had previous message from people who were on the vessel and (again I think) I managed to put them in touch.


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Those lost presumed drowned were passengers on SAGAING on 19th October 1939:

White, Agnes Maude
James, Margaret
James, Patricia
James, Jacklyn
Sharpe, Ronald
Sharpe, John
Sharpe, Edward
Miles, Wallace
Miles, Edgar
Clarke, Joseph
Snowden, Ernest.

There were also some Lascar crew who died in the same incident - not attributable to a war loss.


Regards
Hugh


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

C.R.SCRUBY said:


> Hi
> My name is Mr CR Scruby
> I was on said ship as an 9 year old child, as a passenger
> If still posting please let me know


Now had a reply from one of the others who contacted me and he has sent me a copy of part of the ship's log book.

Send me an EMail address and I will put you in touch with him. I sent a private message with my EMail address.


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

There is a thread on ROOTSCHAT about this which is where I originally made contact with the others.


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

I can't find an Admiralty War Diary entry for the SAGAING on 19.10.39 but there is this on 18.10.39 (from FOLD3)



> Ships attacked
> SAGAING escaped
> 
> 0653
> ...


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## R58484956 (Apr 19, 2004)

Greetings *Mr C R Scruby *and welcome to* SN*. Bon voyage.


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

Making sense at last!

I found another tree on Ancestry which gives the name of Peggy as Williamina M (Peggy) MacKay.

It has the birth place as Abingdon but MacKay is a common name in Sutherland so I checked ScotlandsPeople and found this in the index for 1904

MACKAY
WILLIAMINA MARG
F
1904
056/ 13
Tongue

The marriage was Q4 1928 in Abingdon.

Explains why the memorial was erected at Skerray.

MB


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## Nick dooley (Jan 9, 2017)

Hi, this whole event with the SS Sagaing on HG-3 convoy is fascinating and so tragic. on the research I have carried out, the timing of the whole thing is conflicting. The deaths where registered as the 19th Oct 1939, but the only U-boat report I can find is dated from the 17th Oct. 
This report is from “Historisches MarineArchiv.com”. It’s the report from U-48 about the attack and sinking of the “Clan Chisholm” but then goes onto talk about attacking the Sagaing with torpedoes later that same night and the Sagaing sending out an S.O.S.. The report is in German and I don’t speak any, so retyped it out and used Babelfish to translate it, so not 100% right. If any wants to have a go who does speak German, please.
This is what I Got

Standort: Groβquadrat 9153 B E
Location: Quadrant 9153 B E

20:14
Standort: Groβquadrat 9153 B E
L = 45 17‘ N= 15 04‘
Location: Quadrant 9153 B E

Zwei abgeblendete Dampfer in sicht.
Two dimmed steamer in sight.

20:32
1. Torpedoschuβ aufeinen der Dampfer..
Keine Detonation gehört.
1. Torpedo on one of the steamer ..
No detonation.

20:35
2. Torpedoschuβ auf denselben Dampfer..
2. Torpedo on the same steamer.

Treffer in höhe des achteren Mastes, Der Dampfer sinkt langsam. Er war 5000 – 6000 t groβ. Die Besatzung des Dampfers geht in die Boote. Verfolgung des 2. Dampfers aufgenommen.
Hits in the center of the aft mast, The steamer sinks slowly. It was 5000 - 6000 t. The crew of the steamer enters the boats. Pursuit of the 2nd steamer.

21:00
Zerstörer 300 – 400 m an B.B. in sicht, der mit-hoher Fahrt zur Versenknngsstelle des 1. Dampfers läuft.
Destroyer 300 - 400 m to B.B. In view, which runs with-high drive to the sinking place of the first steamer.

21:03
Torpedoschuβ aus Rohr V auf den Zerstὄrer. Fehlschuβ. Zerstὄrer hat uns nicht bemerkt Wir Verfolgen den 2. Dampfer weiter.
Torpedo tube from tube V to the destroyer. Missed Destroyer did not notice us We pursue the 2nd steamer further.

23:10 hrs
Standort: Groβquadrat 9231 B E.
Location: Quadrant 9231 B E

1. Torpedoschuβ auf den 2. Dampfer. E = 150m. Sehr gerlnge Entferaung. Keine Detonation gehὄrt. Torpedo wahrscheinlich noch nicht.
1. Torpedo on the 2nd steamer. E = 150m. Very long distance. No detonation. Torpedo probably not yet.

Eingesteuert, sodaβ der Dampfer unterschossan wurde. Dampfer hat uns entdeckt. Er funkt S.O.S. und meldet position und U-Boot. Es ist der englische Dampfer „Sagaing“, 7 968 t.
Steered, so that the steamer became undershot. Steamer has discovered us. He sparks S.O.S. And reports position and submarine. It is the English steamer "Sagaing", 7 968 t.

23:20 hrs
2. Torpedoschuβ auf den Dampfer „Sagaing“ abegeben. Fehlschuβ ! Alle Torpedos sind veschossen. Ich willden Dampfer, wenn mὄglich, in def Morgendammerung mit. Artillerie versenkeh.
2. Put the torpedo on the steamer "Sagaing". Wrong! All torpedoes are shot. I want the steamboat, if possible, at dawn. Sink artillery

Ich halte jetst an dem Dampfer Fuhlung, da ich annehme, das der Geleitzug morgen frϋh bzw. Im laufe des Tages sich weider sammelt. Abgabe Fϋnlungshaltermeldung gem.
I now hold on to the steamer feeling, since I presume that the convoy will gather tomorrow morning, or during the course of the day. Delivery notification holder acc.

I have attached original report to this entry (Hopefully)

Nick Dooley


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

The point is that there was not an attack on the ship. One of more U-Boats had been seen so when a noise was heard it was presumed to be a torpedo but it was a false alarm. The deaths were because one (or more) lifeboats were launched without the order being given.


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## Nick dooley (Jan 9, 2017)

Are you saying then this report from U-48 of them firing a torpedo at Sagaing, and torpedo failing to detonate, and Sagaing sending an SOS is another incident. And the failed torpedo was not the “large thud and bump” people heard.

Nick Dooley


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

#13 

What a tragic story. Even if boats were launched "without the order being given", then quite plainly somebody decided to lower a boat or boats. I wonder what the full cir***stances were?

Was it blind panic or was there a more logical explanation?

What became of those keeping the bridge watch?


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

Nick dooley said:


> Are we you saying then this report from U-48 of them firing a torpedo at Sagaing, and torpedo failing to detonate, and Sagaing sending an SOS is another incident. And the failed torpedo was not the “large thud and bump” people heard.
> 
> Nick Dooley


Could be that is the case, would have to go back and read over older messages. But there was no explosion from what I can remember.

Would the U-Boat know the identity of the vessel in the dark (I think it was dark)?

There is another thread on ROOTSCHAT.

Not sure if I posted on here but I have collected all the messages into one PDF file and was going to give the Caithness or Highland archive a copy to answer the mystery of the memorial at Skerray which started off my thread here and on ROOTSCHAT.

Also think it should be more widely known about.


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## Nick dooley (Jan 9, 2017)

Martin, In the German report, U-48 said that the Torpedo does not work, and it was only after Sagaing sent an SOS signal that it knew it was the Sagaing. In fact the Germans where having big problems with the Torpedoes in that the magnetic detonator was not working. If the torpedoes had been working correctly a lot more ship in Convoy HG-3 would have been sunk.


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

That explains it, forgot they would be listening for a SOS.


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

I have to say that the information posted by Nick is worthy of further investigation. No marine researcher would dismiss this kind information without another fully researched explanation.

Have you tried contacting Rainier at u-boat.net and ask for his thoughts on the contents of the log?

Regards
Hugh


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

Also in the 

War diary : German Naval Staff Operations Division


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## Nick dooley (Jan 9, 2017)

Over the last few days I have been in contact with U-Boat.net, U-Boat Archive and the German site Historisches MarineArchiv. Thorsten Reich from Historisches MarineArchiv, sent me the full reports from U-48 and U-46. Jerry Mason from U-Boat Archive who lives in Victoria, BC, Canada has done a fantastic job of translating them from German to English. Jerry also plots all U-37,U-48 and U-46 positions and timings in Google Earth. They all show that U-48 was after the Sagaing. 
Thomas Weis from Stuttgart sent this today: -
“It shows, that U-48 had been attacking a second ship in the evening of 17-10-1939, this was the "Sagaing". The commander intended to shadow the steamer and attack on the next morning at dawn; but at 6:25 h "Sagaing" signaled her position and got help from a destroyer, which attacked the U-boat since 7:32 h with depth charges. U-48 retreated thereafter.”

So all U-boats U-37, U-46 and U-48 reports show that none of them where near Sagaing at 19:30 hrs on the 19th Oct.
So the question is what would have caused the “large thud and bump”. Has anyone heard if there was an inquiry into the lost of life. Has any crew member said it came from the engine room for example or a create fell over in the hold. You can understand the panic from the passengers after the previous few days.


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## Nick dooley (Jan 9, 2017)

In Report 5 page 7 of U-37 Patrol report (KTB37-2R5-7) at the bottom of page it says 

05.02	from IYCG Received 05.55 

Picked up about 223 survivors from 
YORKSHIRE, about 60 are missing 
Look out in 44° 47'N/14 °31'W 
Now heading to position SAGAING 

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-37/KTB37-2Report5.htm 

The date for this is morning of the 18/10/39. This signal was from the American Steamer Independence Hall (Its call sign is IYCG) who had been picking up survivors from the Yorkshire and the City Of Mandalay. And at the end of the signal they put “Now heading to position SAGAING” now why would they do that, the only reason I can see they would head to Sagaing is pick up any survivors.
Now I know everyone believes the “large thud and bump” heard on the Sagaing happened on the 19th at 19:30 but as far as I can tell, that came from a headstone of some who died and the death certificate. Do you think that could be when they were pronounced dead as no bodies were found? 
Does this make sense to anyone else or is it me going round the bend 
I know it doesn’t really matter to the families who lost loved ones, but I would like to know what happened and not think it was just something that went Bump in the night.


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## Nick dooley (Jan 9, 2017)

*Sagaing Passenger list*

I have just come across the In-Coming Passenger List for the Sagaing docking at Liverpool on the 21st of Oct 1939.
The list has all passenger that were on the Sagaing. But it has a green line drawn through some of the names. 15 names in all had this line though them, most of them are the names of people that we know were lost after the incident. I know of 11 that were lost, but this shows a few name more.
Also the last page of list has the Masters signature, saying that were no deaths on the voyage. Would this be because the people were still missing at that point?
I have attached a copy of 5 pages from the list. There are a few names which are hard to read.
Your thoughts please


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

I find it a bit strange Nick.

All are shown on the Deaths at Sea Register as believed drowned 19.10.1939.
If it were me, I would like to see the narrative of the Ship's Official Logbook and also anything else, correspondence etc., that may be held in the file. You need a good look inside BT 381/312 which I would suggest would be best done by a visit to Kew.
Regards
Hugh


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

I saw those on Ancestry some time ago, thought everyone had seen the pages!

Can anyone think of another vessel that lost some of their passengers during the voyage so can check if they do the same in the passenger list on arrival.


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## IAN M (Jan 17, 2009)

Extracted from my book, SHIPPING COMPANY LOSSES OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR. 

CLAN CHISHOLM (Captain F.T. Stenson). Homeward bound from Calcutta, sailed in unescorted Convoy HG.3 which left Gibraltar on 12 October, 1939. Torpedoed and sunk by U.48 (Kptlt. Herbert Schultze). Four died. Forty-two picked up by the Bardaland (Swed.) and landed at Kirkwall, 17 by the Skud (Nor.), and 15 by the Warwick Castle. For details of other ships sunk in Convoy HG.3, see under City of Mandalay, ELLERMAN GROUP and Yorkshire, BIBBY LINE. 

CITY OF MANDALAY (Captain A.G. Melville). Homeward bound from Saigon and intermediate ports, sailed in unescorted Convoy HG.3 which left Gibraltar on 12 October, 1939. Torpedoed and sunk by U.46 (Kptlt. Herbert Sohler) at 4.50pm on the 17th and sank in position 44º57´N 13º36´W. Two died. Seventy-eight picked up by the Independence Hall (US) and landed at Bordeaux on the 20th.

Other ships sunk in Convoy H.G.3 – also on the 17th.
Yorkshire. See under BIBBY LINE.
Clan Chisholm. See under CLAN LINE.

YORKSHIRE (Captain V.C.P. Smalley). Bound for Liverpool, sailed from Rangoon on 13 September, 1939. Joined unescorted Convoy HG.3 which left Gibraltar on 12 October. Torpedoed twice and sunk by U.37 (KrvKpt. Werner Hartmann) at 4.30pm on the 17th, in position 44º52´N 14º31´W. Fifty-eight died. Two hundred and twenty-three picked up by the Independence Hall (US) and landed at Bordeaux on the 20th. For details of other ships sunk in Convoy HG.3, see under City of Mandalay, ELLERMAN GROUP and Clan Chisholm, CLAN LINE.


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

I was thinking of comparable stories where a vessel arrived at its destination with most passengers but some passengers had died in a lifeboat not on board the ship.


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

JMB said:


> I saw those on Ancestry some time ago, thought everyone had seen the pages!


I did see some mention of the logbook somewhere cannot remember if it was Rootschat or somewhere else. However, if you are not familiar with searching logbooks then some of the information can easily be missed.

I think it strange indeed, if true, that there is no mention in that file of those who died a month into the war. In fact the master is duty bound to record it. 

Regards
Hugh


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## mathews0435 (Mar 2, 2009)

*SS Sagaing*

In the book "The Last Voyage of the Lucette" by Douglas Robertson, there is a chapter written by the author's father (Dougal Robertson) who was a third mate on the SS Sagaing at the time of her sinking. According to his account, on the 9th April 1942, the ship was attacked and sunk in Tricomalee by Japanese aircraft whilst at anchor near Malay Cove. As an aside, the Robertson family spent 37 day adrift in the Pacific in 1972 after their 43 foot schooner was sunk by whales.


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

*SS Sagaing: WW2 shipwreck refloated by Sri Lanka navy*

On the BBC News pages

SS Sagaing: WW2 shipwreck refloated by Sri Lanka navy


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

Saw this just now on the British Newspaper Archive


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## audierne (Sep 20, 2008)

As coincidence will have it, I read this morning that the wreck of Sagaing has been lifted from Trincomalee harbour, but I don't know with what purpose in mind.


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## JMB (May 2, 2007)

A lot of Tweets about it



> ABC News
> ‏Verified account @abcnews
> Sunken British WWII ship SS Sagaing refloated by Sri Lanka's navy to make room in harbour https://ab.co/2pUIyRj (Pic: Sri Lanka Navy)





> Sri Lanka Global
> ‏ @srilankaglobal
> 
> Sri Lanka &#55356;&#56817;&#55356;&#56816; #Navy re-floats SS Sagaing a British &#55356;&#56812;&#55356;&#56807; flagged ship sunk during a Japanese &#55356;&#56815;&#55356;&#56821; bombing raid during World War II off the coast of #Trincomalee in #Ceylon #SriLanka #MilitaryHistory #NavalHistory #History #WW2





> Priyatharshan
> &#55356;&#57103;
> ‏ @priyatharshan1
> 
> Wreck of one of the famous #ships of Her Majesty’s #NavalService - SS #Sagaing which sank at the #Trincomalee harbour during the #WorldWarII is refloated after 75 years stay underwater by a team of divers of #SriLankaNavy #lka





> Sunil Jayasiri
> ‏ @sjayasiri
> 
> Wreck of one of the famous ships of Her Majesty’s Naval Service - SS Sagaing which sank at the Trincomalee harbour during the World War II, is refloated after 75 years stay underwater by a team of divers of Sri Lanka Navy. http://www.dailymirror.lk/article/S...British-Ship-148101.html#sthash.x9Y53Z5u.uxfs …


Daily Mirror
SL Navy refloats World War II British Ship


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## Sheen (Oct 13, 2019)

My dad was on the Sagaing. He was 10 and he wrote an account of what happened... he saw the Yorkshire and the city of Mandalay go down too. And he saw the lifeboats being lowered with other children and their mums and saw them capsize before they hit the water. ! ? I would love to hear from anyone else who was on that ship. Dad and his mum were on their way back to England from India as my grandad had left in August to go to train soldiers. Dad remembers a massive thud and all lights went out! They were all sitting ducks in a Mediterranean Sea that was full of U Boats.


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