# Portuguese discover Oz and NZ.



## Geoff Garrett

From todays "The New Zealand Herald":-

_A Portuguese fleet searching for fabled islands of gold discovered New Zealand and Australia 250 years before (that legendary) Capt.Cook, an author has claimed in a new book.

The tiny fleet of four ships left the Portuguese base at Malacca on a secret mission in 1522, sailing down the east coast of Australia.......... before returning to their home port by way of the North Island.

The thesis has been put forward in "Beyond Capricorn" a book published by ..... Peter Trickett. He argues that the Portuguese kept their discoveries secret because of their rivalries with the Spanish.

His startling thesis began eight years ago ........ when he stumbled on a portfolio of maps reproduced from the "Vallard Atlas", a priceless collection of charts which represent the world as it was known in the 16th.century._

QED

Geoff Garrett.


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## Porky

Not much of a historian, but the bloke might have a point. When looking for the Vallard Atlas and found this

http://dpg.lib.berkeley.edu/webdb/dsheh/heh_brf?Description=&CallNumber=HM+29

Study the Australian ones, and you will find a house on poles. I do not know for sure if the Aborigines had any form of houses, but I believe they didn't. However the Maoris of New Zealand did for food storage, see bottom pictures at

http://spas.about.com/cs/newzealandresort/l/blrinstitute.htm

The other striking thing in the map of northern Australia the natives are not wearing much in the way of clothes, but in the west coast of Australia the natives are wearing a lot more, similar to the Maori mode of dress. So the boys doing the maps may have been depicting both countries NZ and Aussie.

And then there is this little gem

http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealand...eryOfNewZealand/1/ENZ-Resources/Standard/2/en

I picking the Portguese had the odd Spaniard on board, or at least Spanish armour

So as I said at the beginning the bloke might have a point


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## Pat McCardle

That legend did a few things to upset a few people but he is still a legend, along with a few of his crew?


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## trotterdotpom

Here's part of a report on the same subject by Sydney Morning Herald, 19.3.07:

".....Scholars had long asked why part of one of the Vallard maps - featuring 120 place names in Portuguese, not French - closely resembled the coast of Queensland. But they had dismissed it as a coincidence, because the map suddenly jutted out at right angles for 1500 kilometres, bearing no relation to any known coastline.

However, Trickett came up with an intriguing theory: what if the atlas compilers in Dieppe had wrongly aligned two Portuguese charts they were copying from?

He called in a computer expert who was able to cut the map in two and rotate the bottom half 90 degrees.

"Up to that point it was just a theory," Trickett says.

"But once it was rotated … the entire east coast of Australia, and part of the south coast as far as Kangaroo Island, was revealed in incredible detail." "



Take a map of Puerto Rico, cut it in half and swap the ends over, then turn it round 90 degrees - this shows that Christopher Columbus discovered Middlesbrough. 

QED.

I'm not saying the Portuguese didn't chart Australia, but this book seems to me to be in the same vein as "1421, The Year China Discovered America", which is largely discredited for making the evidence fit the required result.

Captain Ken Crompton, formerly of the Torres Strait Pilots, wrote several papers on this subject and personally demonstrated to me how it was not possible, due to design and prevailing winds, for the Portuguese caravels, the ships in use in the early 16th century, to map the Australian east coast. I just wish I could remember his argument!

Having said that, if the Portuguese did discover Australia, what a pity they didn't claim it for Portugal - we could be in the same mess as East Timor is now!

John T.


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## raybnz

There has been for some years now the belief that a Portuguese Galleon is sometimes exposed on the Kaipara Harbour bar. I am wondering if this might be the same guy who has this theory.

By the way if anyone is interested in seeing the remains of sailing ships that have to grief on this bar it is well worth taking a trip. My wife and I did it some years ago and viewed quite a bit of wreckage.


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## J Boyde

Who really finds what, I must suggest that history has a fair bit of what is convient at any given time, by the people who have a living writing about history.
Jim B


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## Brian Twyman

Reminds me of what Sir Edmund Hillary said when someone claimed a missing British climber had climbed Everest before him ... " I was the first bugger to climb it and get down again ! " 
Thanks James Cook & Co.
Brian


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## Chillytoes

There's a whole body of creditable literature on the subject of european discovery of Australia & New Zealand prior to Cook and the Dutch. Two books that spring to mind are "Java La Grande. The Portuguese discovery of Australia" by Lawrence Fitzgerald and "Was Australia Charted Before 1606. The Jave la Grande Inscriptions" by William Richardson who lists more than 24 papers he has written on the subject. These should satisfy or at least whet the appetite of anyone interested. But please don't even consider Menzies! It's just rubbish!
And, by the way, whatever else he may have achieved, Jimmy Cook did not, repeat did not, discover Australia. Or New Zealand.


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## Brian Twyman

Maori history tells that they discovered NZ first..that is why they are 'Tangata Whenua' the indigenous people of NZ.

It is thanks to James Cook that we speak English here.
Brian


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## trotterdotpom

Chillytoes;117260.....And said:


> Nobody, least of all Captain Cook, ever claimed that Cook discovered Australia and New Zealand. This is a myth perpetuated by people who get their history from the back of cornflakes boxes. What Cook did do is chart the coasts of those countries and others and to this day you can see his name on those charts!
> 
> Another myth is that Cook was born in Whitby. He was actually born in a village called Marton, a mile from where I grew up, now a suburb of Middlesbrough. That's why there's a very salubrious pub called the Captain Cook in the 'Boro - right Ruud?
> 
> John T.


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## Chillytoes

John, 
You're quite right about Cook and Australia, those who make the claim of discovery on his behalf must have been fast asleep in history classes.

Most authorities dismiss any theory on Portuguese discovery along with all the manipulation of old maps this way and that in support, and it's hard to disagree. Having said that, it still seems particularly strange that the Portagees did not record any such voyage to Australia. Certainly there was not much to attract them, no known trade, no gold and jewels, but surely they must have been told something by the inhabitants of Indonesia, and wouldn't it be a normal reaction to see for yourself, just to check that the locals weren't trying to hide something good from you? The lack of evidence is not necessarily proof against such a voyage.
It would indeed be fascinating to read the explanation as to how it was impossible for Portuguese caravels to sail the Australian coast, especially as they were able to sail half-way around the world, all up the Asian coat to Japan etc with these same vessels.


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## trotterdotpom

Chillytoes.....
It would indeed be fascinating to read the explanation as to how it was impossible for Portuguese caravels to sail the Australian coast said:


> Thanks, Neil. As you say there's no denying the many achievements and exploits of the Portuguese navigators, but trust me "the Kookaburra" knew what he was on about.
> 
> I found this on the website of the Maritime Museum, Newport News, Virginia:
> 
> "The southern or Mediterranean ship was a caravel and lateen-rigged, with big triangular sails on two or three masts. The lateen sail maneuvered well when the wind came from the side, but not when the wind came from behind."
> 
> That sounds familiar - all to do with the ship design and prevailing winds.
> 
> The mention of the Portuguese ship supposedly sunk in New Zealand is very reminiscent of the "Mahogany Ship" at Warnambool in Victoria. She too is reputed to be a Portuguese caravel - trouble after many years of searching, nobody has found her yet.
> 
> Who knows, maybe more will come to light some day.
> 
> John T.


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## Chillytoes

John
There are, of course, limitations with full lateen rig, but the 16thC Portuguese vessels were not limited to lateen rig only. They used a combination of square rig & lateen, which was usually carried only on the mizzen and indeed this remained in use well into the 17thC. And it was the Portuguese, under the patronage of Henry the Navigator, who first reached India, via the cape. For that achievement, one would need to have the ability to sail in all conditions of wind direction. The Spanish under Magellan got around the world in 1519/22 and sir Francis Drake made it in 1577/80 with essentially this rig configuration. Is the whole coast of Australia a totally different, unsailable kettle of fish? Indeed, unless my memory fails me (quite possible) Dufkyn, credited with the discovery in 1606, carried this style of rig as does the modern "replica".


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## trotterdotpom

Neil, by coicidence, the "Duyfken" is here in Brisbane as we speak. I'll try and have a look.

John T.


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## Chillytoes

John, Here is Duyfkin taken on arrival outside Sydney Heads, 2001.


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## trotterdotpom

Thanks, Neil, great photo.The Australian, Dutch and Indonesian flags are self explanatory, but have you any idea about the significance on the Lion Rampant flag? 

John T.


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## trotterdotpom

*Duyfken*

Neil, went aboard yesterday - super. Unfortunately nobody about to explain anything, but I did find out that the yellow flag with the lion rampant is the flag of the States-General or Staten-Generaal, the Dutch parliament. Apparently they had a bit of sway over the VOC.

John T.


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## Chillytoes

John,
Thanks for that. I was not sure what it was. It rather looked like the faux Scottish flag, but the lion is brandishing what appears to be a sword. It also is rather like the house flag of McIlwraith, McEacharn; without the sword and without the twin red border lines.
She was certainly flying some bunting - about the only thing missing was the captain's wife's knickers!


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## Chillytoes

Immediately after posting the above, I looked in my book of flags which notes this particular banner. The lion is actually supposed to be holding a bunch of arrows, one for each province, and there should be a motto "Eeendradt maakt Magt", which translates as "Unity is Strength", but it is not discernible in the photo.


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## sandym19

Chillytoes said:


> John,
> Having said that, it still seems particularly strange that the Portagees did not record any such voyage to Australia.


Actually they did ! Is well recorded in a museum in Faro (that I once visited - back in 1982). Also (reputedly) recorded in Portuguese charts & journals held in the Bodleian Library (University of Oxford) dated apparently back to the early 1500's...seized from Faro (The Bishop of Faro's Library - back in 1592 by the Earl of Essex when he sacked it) which I must admit I haven't seen... It's well common knowledge though, that Alexander Dalrymple used them to petition the Admiralty to explore the Sth Pacific in the 1760's, Lt James Cook getting the call (and then the accolades).


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## trotterdotpom

sandym19 said:


> Actually they did ! Is well recorded in a museum in Faro (that I once visited - back in 1982). Also (reputedly) recorded in Portuguese charts & journals held in the Bodleian Library (University of Oxford) dated apparently back to the early 1500's...seized from Faro (The Bishop of Faro's Library - back in 1592 by the Earl of Essex when he sacked it) which I must admit I haven't seen... It's well common knowledge though, that Alexander Dalrymple used them to petition the Admiralty to explore the Sth Pacific in the 1760's, Lt James Cook getting the call (and then the accolades).


It is common knowledge that Dalrymple used information from the voyage of Torres through what is now known as the Torres Strait to promote exploration of the Southwest Pacific. Torres voyage was in 1606 and in the service of Spain. Anything else does not get a mention as far as I can find. It is quite possible that Torres sighted Cape York, but he never recorded it. He did claim New Guinea for Spain. If he realised that Cape York was anything but a small island, presumably he would have claimed Australia too.

"Lt James Cook ..... accolades" seems to imply that Cook is credited with the discovery of Australia. Here we go again ... Read my lips: James Cook did NOT discover Australia. He didn't claim to have discovered Australia. His Mum didn't claim he discovered Australia. He knew Australia was there before he left England.

John T


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## FILIPVS

Today, the priority of the Portuguese discovery of the West Coast of Africa is long uncontested fact, so the Vallard Atlas (1547) is no longer mentioned as a testimony of it, but this Atlas is now considered an evidence of a vague knowledge of Australia in the first half of the sixteenth century. It is the Australia first map, 250 years before James Cook arrival.

*Vallard Atlas* includes, alongside the coastal landforms that appear to correspond to the Australian mainland, almost entirely Portuguese toponyms. It suggests that was copied from Portuguese prototypes now disappeared and also that the continent drawn, albeit quite incorrect, immediately south of Insulindia, represents Australia.


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## trotterdotpom

Oh no, I thought you'd retired to the Malvinas!

John T


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## Varley

No, to the Falklands. Papa's prayers haven't worked yet!


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## Satanic Mechanic

Though it should be pointed out that strictly speaking both islands (and everything from the Americas to Victoria Falls) had already been discovered before Europeans got there. But as Terry Pratchett points out 

" lots of people and the merely badly lost had discovered them on an almost daily basis for thousands of years. But they weren’t explorers and didn’t count".


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## NZSCOTTY

A scot and a chinaman discovered NZ and ausi. The same fellows you find in every new place


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## Satanic Mechanic

NZSCOTTY said:


> A scot and a chinaman discovered NZ and ausi. The same fellows you find in every new place


You can probably add a Filipino to that as well - I swear I have met at least one Filipino everywhere I have gone including places like Murmansk, Conakry and Tema as well as the aforementioned Scot and Chinaman


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## barrinoz

Back in the day, they didn't have a word for 'discover'.


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## ben27

good day nzscotty.sm.today.11:25.reortuguese discover oz and nz.you could be right,who is goieng to prove you wrong.it seems everybody wants the credit.have a good day.ben27


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## trotterdotpom

barrinoz said:


> Back in the day, they didn't have a word for 'discover'.


No Baz, they preferred "Claim" in the good old days. Thank God. Rule Britannia.

John T


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## sandym19

trotterdotpom said:


> "Lt James Cook ..... accolades" seems to imply that Cook is credited with the discovery of Australia. Here we go again ... Read my lips: James Cook did NOT discover Australia. He didn't claim to have discovered Australia. His Mum didn't claim he discovered Australia. He knew Australia was there before he left England.
> 
> John T


Read MY lips (Jester) I said nothing about Cook "discovering" NZ's West Island..(you call it Oz) I think it's a fair bet the aborigine did that a few dozen thousand years before him , likewise with NZ , Fiji, Hawaii etc etc... Cook "discovered" lands with people there already (in fact he did so nearly everywhere he went)  What I was "implying" (if anything) is that Lt Cook got the accolades for (whilst demonstrating great seamanship, charting, and navigation) proving Dalrymple's theories and queries about the EXTENT of the existence of Terra Australis Incognito, ie: Australia & New Zealand. Whilst also going about proclaiming ownership of a host of hither too "uncharted & unexplored by Brit' " islands. Which Dalrymple himself admitted to knowing all about,(and published such later - mind you I guess he would have been peeved) from his studies of the original Portuguese charts taken from Faro, these charts were thought to have been the ones copied to make the Dieppe/Dauphin ones back in the late 1540's (I think, by memory) so I'm picking that they (the originals) were a little older than that, say circa 1500-20's. I know nothing about Dalrymples' Phillipines' Torres' stuff excepting that he translated captured Spanish do***ents AFTER he had found the Portuguese stuff (which were charts !), I do know something about his research of the info held in The Bod', which in the end directly led to the exploratory part of The Bark Endeavour's mission, (Cooks' Second & Third Instructions)


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## eldersuk

There was an hotel in Tema which had a large oil painting of Ghanaians discovering America, (in dugout canoes). But no beer.

Derek


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## trotterdotpom

Sorry SandyM - maybe I misread part of your post. I get fed up when people keep saying "Cook didn't discover Australia" - a fact that is not disputed - as though there was ever a claim that he did.

As for European explorers discovering anything - I believe the correct term would be "European Discovery" as, of course, most of the places were already occupied.

Dalrymple's study of the Torres charts and material is well do***ented - you can Google it. I can't find connection between Dalrymple and earlier Portuguese material, I'd be interested to see it.

John T


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## NZSCOTTY

Satanic Mechanic said:


> You can probably add a Filipino to that as well - I swear I have met at least one Filipino everywhere I have gone including places like Murmansk, Conakry and Tema as well as the aforementioned Scot and Chinaman


No, no the Scot and the Chinaman discovered the Phillipines as well. You must have seen some of their ancestors


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## Fred Field

trotterdotpom said:


> Oh no, I thought you'd retired to the Malvinas!
> 
> John T


I am still waiting for him to go back to the thread that he started about a Spaniard who he claims built a steam engine to pump out mines.


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