# Stowage of derricks



## hooroy

I have started building a 1:160 scale sailing model of the Empress of Canada(1961).
The ship was fitted with derricks for cargo handling and I plan to model them as they would be when stowed for the open sea. Can anyone point me to a source of such information? I can find lots of information on how to rig them for cargo handling but not when stowed. For example, how are the slewing blocks and wires stowed; is the end of the cargo runner secured to the winch, and if not, where, etc?.
I might not be able to model them 100% accurately but I'd like to understand what I should be aiming for.
Thanks.


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## Stephen J. Card

Use photos. Here are two good views that show the stowage of derricks at all five hatches. There are lots of photos showing what the rig at each mast and at each hatch. They are different!.

a.. No.1 Hatch. Two derricks. Stowed fore & aft.
b. No.2 Hatch. Two derricks. Stowed crossed and twartships.
c. No.3 Hatch Two derricks. Stowed fore and after, but 'crossed'.
d. No.4 Hatch Four derricks. Two derricks on port mast and two derricks on starboard mast. All derricks would be stowed fore and aft. 
e. No.5 Hatch Two derricks. Stowed fore & aft,


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## jmcg

Usually the " slewing blocks and wires" ) - guys is the correct nautical term - are secured along the length of the derrick and made fast by means of a shackle to an eyebolt usually near the hatch coaming . Likewise, the runner is made fast to a convenient eyebolt - nor necessarily near the winch. 

Hope this helps.

J


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## Stephen J. Card




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## Stephen J. Card

Not a good model at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Excellent 'finish' and paint job, bit the builder model must have been blind! So many mistake. Any good photo or plan would have given the correct information. Even the paint colours are wrong...even if well applied. He does show the correct way the stow of the derricks... roughly. I don't understand. To go through all of the work to make a model and then get so many mistakes. Never assume the details. If you want to make sure... check details first! The builder was mixing details of EMPRESS OF CANADA with MARDI GRAS. MARDI GRAS... red stripe on the hull. The bootopping is blue. As Canadian Pacific colours the strip and bootopping was all green!

Stephen




























Note this last photo. Green strip, buff yellow for the name on bow. Good photo to show how the topping lifts at No. 2 Hatch. The derricks are crossed over. In this position the topping life wire would 'rub' together. To prevent that there is a lashing to pull the apart. Note the 'kink' in the wires.

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Side elevation:









Cutaway... also show the bulbous bow... not like on the model!









Great photo showing the rigging at each mast.


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## Harry Nicholson

Waved her off, many years ago as she took relatives out to a new life in Canada. Britain lost a promising young geologist but Canada gained a professor of palaeontology. He is now retired but still researching.


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## Stephen J. Card

Beautiful launching photo. Stunning,,, especially in those CP colours.








Good information for the correct antifouling colours.


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## hooroy

jmcg said:


> Usually the " slewing blocks and wires" ) - guys is the correct nautical term - are secured along the length of the derrick and made fast by means of a shackle to an eyebolt usually near the hatch coaming . Likewise, the runner is made fast to a convenient eyebolt - nor necessarily near the winch.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> J


Thanks a lot. I have all the pictures shown but this is precisely the detail I was looking for. This seems to me to make sense.
I have attached a photo taken on one of the after decks on one crossing I made on the ship in 1963.This shows that all of the slewing blocks and guys have been removed, as well as the cargo purchase blocks. But this was only one crossing so I don't know if this would be normal practice, or an exception. It seems a lot of work to be done every five days to rig them and then remove them. Is it likely that this total removal is not normal practice?







the normal practice, and perhaps only done because the ship was making several crossings without cargo?

Referring to the attached image,


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## Stephen J. Card

The gear may have been taken down for many reason. Lack of use for cargo. Might have been easier to use Nos 1 & S Holds than the others. Perhaps the gear was taken down for an overhaul. Quite possible the gear slug under the derricks was 'unsightly' for the passengers. and might bump their heads. On the other side, it would just be one block and one runner on each derrick. That block and wire would not be that much of a job.


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## Stephen J. Card

Here is an interesting photo of the vessel. In the 60s... not in late period when wearing the CP Ships livery and the ship show no gear at Nos 4 & 5... and NO DERRICKS at all! If you right the model with the gear it will looks better 'with' than 'without'. Why not show all the sticks up. Beautiful!


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## hooroy

The plans show that holds 2 and 4 were the largest. Hold 4 was loaded via 2 trunks, one each side. Holds 4 and 5 were sealed by flush covers on passenger decks and I'm guessing that would make the forward holds the preferred ones, other things being equal.It is my intention to make the model with derricks at each hold. Based on the information provided, I think it's not unrepresentative to rig the aft derricks as shown in my photo; not sure about the forward ones.
The launching photo appears to show the name on the bow in a cream colour, others show the name in red. Right or wrong, my model has the name in green.


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## Stephen J. Card

Queen Elizabeth on transatlantic run. All of the runners and guys were taken down for the voyage... in mid summer.

My earlier photo of the EoC at Valetta with the boat in foreground.... the derricks at Nos 4 & 5 are missing. Definitely on a cruise.

Think on back on my own ships... the guys were stowed away before departure.


hooroy said:


> The plans show that holds 2 and 4 were the largest. Hold 4 was loaded via 2 trunks, one each side. Holds 4 and 5 were sealed by flush covers on passenger decks and I'm guessing that would make the forward holds the preferred ones, other things being equal.It is my intention to make the model with derricks at each hold. Based on the information provided, I think it's not unrepresentative to rig the aft derricks as shown in my photo; not sure about the forward ones.
> The launching photo appears to show the name on the bow in a cream colour, others show the name in red. Right or wrong, my model has the name in green.


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## Stephen J. Card

The derricks were used forward... in addition to cargo, where used for stores and baggage as well, went when cruising.

The name colour was more buff, as in funnel buff rather than cream. I don't they used red on the name. The name was painted black when she was using the new CP Ships livery. Why choose green for yours? Recently I did a painting of MARDI GRAS. The stripe is red and the name in red. Almost ready to ship it and I found a colour photo and the name was in BLUE. Oops. Repaint.

A few years ago Ken Marschall was doing a TITANIC painting. He thought the hawsepipe was painted 'red'. I thought that was rather unlikely as the hull colour was black. Some photos of TITANIC... closeups in the yardm seem to show the hawsepipe was 'not black'. I thought it might just be sunlight catching that spot with a shadow. We both then started searching. I'll be a monkey. Found in the 1890s etc, a LOT of ships had red painted hawsepipes. This was from from many shipbuilder models and paintings. Strange stuff.

How much more work to do on your model?

Stephen


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## hooroy

I don't have a strong reason for making the name green, except to say that buff/cream is too bland, I think the other pictures show the name in red, but whether it's red or black it seems incongruous given the rest of the colour scheme. Green is consistent and bold. 
I have the outer skin of the model complete and painted; I am now working on the decks and details, working from the main deck upwards. Most recent photo attached.


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## Stephen J. Card

I hope your hand is steady for painting the stripe.  Looks coming good.
Went through lost of photos and footage. I'm 99.9& that the standard was the buff yellow... as the funnel. In some photos the name appears 'green' and in some the photos show 'red'. A lot it depends on the printing of the photo. When the buff is in shadow it can look 'reddish' and in some cases, the colour of sea etc can give a green tint on the green. I'm certain that CP changed their livery year just to make a change and I doubt the Bosun would dare make a change.... or shouldn't. On one ship I changed the colour or the masts/cranes to a different colour... from a light cream to a nice shade of buff. The Old Man told me that I would get shot at some point. A matter of weeks later I saw the sistership. Her cranes were all in the same dark buff. It seems the mate on the other ship had the same idea and changed their colour. No one could tell the difference.

You may be aware there is a new MARDI GRAS. Just came out of the yard and now in layup. Months ago carnival ordered a nice model of MARDI GRAS (EMPRESS OF CANADA) to display on the new ship. It is a digital made model. I have no idea how they do it, but I'm sure it is not 'plank on frame' model.

Stephen


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## Engine Serang 2

Few balcony cabins, probably designed for assisted passages. Was she (he) riveted?


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## Pilot mac

I would guess that guys, preventer and runner were all removed and stowed whilst at sea. It was a common practice in some liner companies to do so. 

brgds
Dave


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## jmcg

In reply to #9 above, I cannot recall or indeed remember having any exposure to her rigging gear on the one trip I made on her across N.A. She had a terrible reputation with regards deck crewing (athough there were a few "company men" patriots). Most of her deck crew were 6 to a dormitory with no portholes or air conditioning. A stinking environment indeed and one that was well known on the Liverpool "Pool".. She was hard to crew (deck). Two names I can recall as decent chaps. Dougie Virgoe QM) and Gerry Woodbine (Bosun?) Glad to get off her after one trip.

Her "gear" may have been removed for the N.A crossing although I suspect the weather forecast would have had some influence . She went cruising in the Caribbean during winter months.

BW
J


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## hooroy

Thanks for all the feedback.
I surmise from the various comments that it was probably the decision of the master and mate how the derricks were stowed, based on a variety of conditions. The minimum and not uncommon arrangement seems to be just the derrick lifting blocks and guys, with everything else removed. WHich suits me since it's the easiest to model.
Regarding the other comments, I do not have a hand that is steady enough to paint the stripe, so I have used vinyl striping tape made for the purpose. An uneven stripe would completely spoil the appearance.
3D modelling and printing is quite common now, and it's even available for hobbyists. I am hoping to get my 14-year old grandson to 3D print the lifeboats on his printer. Failing that, I can probably do it at our local library, if we ever get past this Covid thing. There is a lot more work involved in modelling a complete ship, and it requires a lot of the construction drawings. I contacted Carnival and asked if they had drawings of the ship as they received it. The only contact I found was the Marketing dept and they couldn't help. I might have had more luck if I'd been able to contact their records dept directly.


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## Stephen J. Card

Thanks for the latest info.

Carnival needed the plans for a model of Mardi Gras. They had nothing on their files. Anyhow, the did find a rather rough elevation of the ship but they could not get any dimensions of the ship. They came to me for help. I did have the side elevation (sent earlier). I was surprise because the model make should have been able to work it out for themselves. They could not work out the height of various decks, funnel, masts etc. I went to them: The LOA of the ship is 198.10m. Enlarge the profile and work from that.... work out a scale and they would have all of the information. I have not seen the new model yet. I wonder what they have come up with. A pity they didn't give you a commission to do it!
Stephen


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## hooroy

Stephen J. Card said:


> Thanks for the latest info.
> 
> Carnival needed the plans for a model of Mardi Gras. They had nothing on their files. Anyhow, the did find a rather rough elevation of the ship but they could not get any dimensions of the ship. They came to me for help. I did have the side elevation (sent earlier). I was surprise because the model make should have been able to work it out for themselves. They could not work out the height of various decks, funnel, masts etc. I went to them: The LOA of the ship is 198.10m. Enlarge the profile and work from that.... work out a scale and they would have all of the information. I have not seen the new model yet. I wonder what they have come up with. A pity they didn't give you a commission to do it!
> Stephen


Stephen,
The Tyne and Wear Museum has a lot of plans of the ship. It's hard to believe that Carnival did not start there since the ship was built on the Tyne. I purchased the General Arrangement which is at least to scale, although it differs in a couple of areas of the ship as built. 
My model will not be a museum quality model, it's a near scale sailing model as regards some of the details; it's not meant to be untouchable in a glass case.

Roy


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## Stephen J. Card

USA company they would not know where to start. I would think that the ship model makers would have a better idea of where to start. You are right. The port museums should be the start pointing. Greenwich Maritime Museum is another good source... especially from ships in the past two hundred years!

Stephen


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## hooroy

I will be interested to learn what what colour they have chosen to paint the decks and deck machinery. The information I have seen shows that the forecastle and the aft mooring deck are not planked, and hence painted. I have guessed that the decks would have been a shade of green and the machinery black. Another mystery area is the top of the funnel.The few high level photos are indistinct, but a sailing model is commonly viewed close-up from above.


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## Stephen J. Card

Looking at the aerial photo I would say the decks are teak. In the way of No 2 Hatch look teak... so does No. 1 and the foc'sle looks wood too. The deck edge is probably green. (your photo taken at No. 4 hatch show the deck edge is green. Bitts and windlass look black. Hatch coamings, white. Hatch covers are black. Cargo winches are white. 

The model above shows teak foredeck. The hatch covers are not grey. 

JMCG is reading these comments... I hope. He would put you in the picture.

The vents on the top front of the funnel. The model above shows that, but not very done well. Several photos show it better. The 'flue' is hidden. Take a guess, just paint it black and don'y let it stick above the rim of the funnel.

Stephen


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## jmcg

As SJC has indicated all decks were of teak (timber) construction. I do not recall the black hatch covers. Winches and hatch coamings were white - in fact save for bitts /bollards everything for'ard of the bridge was white. I was stationed for'ard when mooring operations. I cannot comment on anything aft .

BW
J


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## hooroy

Clearly I should have started this discussion some time ago. Alas, my foc'sle and aft mooring deck are already green. and the deck machinery black. The overhead picture in #2 shows that the deck machinery is dark, presumably black; only the access hatch and control stands are white. At some point in her lifetime the colour must have been changed.
All other decks on the model will be planked, except for the topmost Observation deck which another photo shows was painted green. The lips at the deck edges are actually light grey so I presume the waterway surfaces are too. The winch control cabins have light grey ladders and doors and it looks to me that the roofs are green. A small visible corner of the winch in this photo confirms that the winches were white, but were the drums white too? Or I could try to model them covered in grey canvas.









Unless I come across factual information about the funnel top, I am assuming that it was very similar internally to that on the NZ ferry Wahine for which I have a drawing.


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## Stephen J. Card

Oops!!!!! Here is the answer. the foredeck was all teak. This photo from MARDI GRAS and taken by SN member Rich Turnwall. This is not the first time I have asked Rich about Mardi Gras. A mine of good information!


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## Stephen J. Card

Similar as WAHINE but different. The stovepipe is there but there is something 'curved over the pipe... dark in colour'. Not sure what it is. Note the slots in the vent, There are two round bars, horizontal (sloping back). The actual slit uprights are wide and are angled. I guess to guide the wind through the pipe and carry the smoke up.

Stephen


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## hooroy

Stephen J. Card said:


> Oops!!!!! Here is the answer. the foredeck was all teak. This photo from MARDI GRAS and taken by SN member Rich Turnwall. This is not the first time I have asked Rich about Mardi Gras. A mine of good information!
> View attachment 684473


My only consolation is that I expect 99.99% of folks who see the model won't know the truth !
Roy


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## Stephen J. Card

hooroy said:


> My only consolation is that I expect 99.99% of folks who see the model won't know the truth !
> Roy



LOL.... be it on your own head!  Anoraks and Rivet Counters. Lots hereon SN. I'll even put my hand up now.

Stephen


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## hooroy

The sad part is that I glued the foc'sle deck in place only 2 days ago !
I took another look at the profile plan that I purchased from the Tyne and Wear Museum and noted another item of interest. It is labelled: "Empress of Canada Refit. General Arrangement Profile. Cost no. 2912/379" and it shows the original funnel markings. The derricks and derrick posts on hatches 4 and 5 have been completely removed. So clearly CP intended to do more than simply remove the derricks. Unfortunately I can find no date on the sheet but presumably they changed plans and decided to sell the ship instead.
I was able to find a broadside view of the ship which allowed me to position the posts accurately.

I'm guessing that the dark lines visible through the vanes on the funnel are supports for the vanes. I can't imagine any other reason why they would put something like that in the way of the airflow through the vanes.
Roy


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## jmcg

Super thread is this one hooroy. I'm sure the finished article will be something special and to treasure.

Keep us posted in progress and may I take this opportunity to wish you and all contributors a very Merry Xmas and prosperous New Year.

BW
J


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## Engine Serang 2

It's Green 14E56.


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## Stephen J. Card

hooroy said:


> I'm guessing that the dark lines visible through the vanes on the funnel are supports for the vanes. I can't imagine any other reason why they would put something like that in the way of the airflow through the vanes.
> Roy


Probably to prevent the vanes from vibrating. Back in the 1930s the two Italian speed queens REX and CONTE DI SAVOIA and later the Dutch NIEUW AMSTERDAM... all had opening and vanes in teh funnek to deflect the smoke. All were covered up very quickly. The intended purpose didn't work and usually called whistling and screaming from the wind. I guess the design of EoC was done correctly.

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

Engine Serang 2 said:


> It's Green 14E56.


Humbrol or Hempel?


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## hooroy

I have another question for jmcg, how did the crew get onto the foc'sle? THe model in #2 shows wooden doors, but that seems unlikely on a deck exposed to the oncoming seas. Were there any doors, or did the crew reach the deck through the hatch between the anchor chains?


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## Engine Serang 2

Stephen J. Card said:


> Humbrol or Hempel?


Hempels, Jotun or International. All conform to BS 4800.
But I recommend Humbrol for the model.


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## hooroy

Engine Serang 2 said:


> Hempels, Jotun or International. All conform to BS 4800.
> But I recommend Humbrol for the model.


Since I prefer to use acrylic airbrush paints, I have used Vallejo Air Light Green 71.267. It looks like a faded 14E56. What was the source of your information for BS1400 14E56? The reason I ask is that the first edition of BS4800 was published in 1972, 11 years after EoC entered service. For my model of the Wahine I was given colours from BS381. This is just curiousity on my part because I'm guessing those standards have some very similar colours.
In the ship pictures I've viewed over the years, it's been apparent that deck colours varied from the brand new to the weathered, and sometimes a mixture of both. It's not an excuse for using the 'wrong' colour because my aim is for the model to show the ship as it entered service where possible.
The plans/photos I have show three deck areas that are not planked and therefore painted; the topmost Observation deck, the next deck down in the area around the funnel, and the next down in the strips adjacent to the lifeboats.
Roy


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## jmcg

hooroy
In reply to your query posted at #37 and from memory; the "working" alleyway as it was known was the deck just above the green hull striping. This "alleyway" housed most of the crew including the deck "crowd". Messrooms and recreation rooms were on this deck too together with immediate janitorial stores. There was also a "Brig" on this level - frequently used to contain any unruly characters. On my trip we had a stowaway who occupied the facilities and unlike us, was well fed.

The "alleyway" (deck ) was indeed a long one and led to final watertight doors leading to the fo'c's'le - port and starboard. The doors would of course be exposed to the weather and seas and would be of all steel construction.

BW

J


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## jmcg

Further to the above, these w/t doors would not normally be used/opened whilst at sea unless there were cogent reasons for doing so. I would imagine they would be routinely checked on each watch cycle with details recorded in ink.

In close waters an instruction from Bridge would follow to allow opening for operational/mooring duties. In those days Master and Mates were "old school" steeped in traditional ways and procedures that had served then well.

BW
J


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## hooroy

jmcg said:


> hooroy
> In reply to your query posted at #37 and from memory; the "working" alleyway as it was known was the deck just above the green hull striping. This "alleyway" housed most of the crew including the deck "crowd". Messrooms and recreation rooms were on this deck too together with immediate janitorial stores. There was also a "Brig" on this level - frequently used to contain any unruly characters. On my trip we had a stowaway who occupied the facilities and unlike us, was well fed.
> 
> The "alleyway" (deck ) was indeed a long one and led to final watertight doors leading to the fo'c's'le - port and starboard. The doors would of course be exposed to the weather and seas and would be of all steel construction.
> 
> BW
> 
> J


Attached is a section of the plan I've been working from. The rectangle I've ringed in blue looks like a staircase extending down through three decks which gave access from the deck you describe two decks below. Am I correct in assuming that the squares I've marked in red (or the adjacent squares) are the locations of the doors? Or was there just one door?
Roy


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## hooroy

hooroy said:


> Attached is a section of the plan I've been working from. The rectangle I've ringed in blue looks like a staircase extending down through three decks which gave access from the deck you describe two decks below. Am I correct in assuming that the squares I've marked in red (or the adjacent squares) are the locations of the doors? Or was there just one door?
> Roy
> View attachment 684504


Oops - one deck down, not two.


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## Stephen J. Card

The blue stairs are those going to the lower decks. From that area you would see the short passage on starboard, that come out onto deck. (red). The port (red) door would be a small deck locker. Keep heaving lines, anchor ball etc.


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## hooroy

Over the years I have periodically done a search for fresh pictures of the Empress. Within a week I have become aware of two colour photos which show the foc'sle was planked. The second one is on Flickr:
EoC forward from the bridge

Now I'm beginning to wish I had not found this out, it's bugging me. Replacing the deck would require major surgery, but it has setting me to think if I can make an overlay to fit over the painted deck.

Thanks for all the input. 
Do your best to enjoy the holidays safely,
Roy


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## Stephen J. Card

One the Flicker photos does show the green painted 'top' of the glazed wind screen between No. 2 & No. 3 Hatch.

Roy, Likewise... all very wishes for Xmas and the New Year! You never know, Santa might drop off some supplies. Might be a pot of some 'deck green or a sling of cut and trimmed deck teak! 

Stephen


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## hooroy

For those who expressed an interest in my model of the Empress of Canada, these show the progress to date. This is obviously the upper hull; the lower hull has not changed.


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## jerome morris

Wow! Beautiful job on the Empress.
She’ll be a real ship in miniature when completed.


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## hooroy

Thanks, Jerome. It's taking longer to complete than I expected, but progress continues.
Roy


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## hooroy

For those interested in models, here is the finished "Empress of Canada". I know the funnel colour is not correct,but I've not been able to find a specification for the original colour.


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## jmcg

A great result and a credit to you.

Better to admire her in this guise than to have sailed in her. 

Just awful -the worst of the worst to have sailed in.

BW
J


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