# Roll of Naval War Medals 1914-1920



## BrianP

Hello,
Can someone please help with the abbreviations found on the Roll of Naval War Medals [ADM171/132], from the National Archives.
Under Rank or Rating: Ck, Gsr, Fmn, and A.B.
Medals: ST, V, and B.
How issued or disposed of: S, F, and Ww. 
Also under the 3rd column, for No., they give a 6 figure number, is that the ships official number?
Thank you,
Brian


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## Hugh MacLean

Hello Brian,

Cook, Greaser, Fireman, Able Bodied Seaman.
1914-1915 Star, Victory Medal, British War Medal.
Self, Forfeited, Widow.
6 figure number is the recipients official number.

Hope that helps.

Regards
Hugh


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## BrianP

Hello Hugh,
Thank you for the answers to my posting. I had hoped to identify my grandfather from his number on his C.R 10 card, which was 465083. The numbers on the Roll of Naval War Medals are different on all the J and John Todd's listed.
Some of the other names on the page have the name of the ship instead of a number, so could it be the ship's official number, and not the recipient? The John Todd that could be my grandfater, his number is listed as 781567
Some of the ship's listed are Dahlia, Trent, Marmora, Montagua and Amy.
Brian


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## Hugh MacLean

Brian,

Was your g/f in the MMR or the MN and what was his date and place of birth? The number is too high to be a MN ship's official number. 
ADM 171/132 is MMR medals not MN.

Regards
Hugh


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## BrianP

Hello Hugh,
My G/f John Todd was born in Glynn, near Larne, Co. Antrim, 6 June 1891.
Brian


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## Hugh MacLean

Hello Brian,

Firstly, the number 465083 is his ID certificate number not really much use for searching a seamen of that era. The important number is his Dis A which is 531722. May I ask why you are looking in ADM 171 series for his file. That file will only contain details of RN, RNR, MMR not Mechant Navy. 

Is that the only card you have? Do you have one showing the other side of the card?


Regards
Hugh


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## BrianP

Hello Hugh,
I have a photograph of my G/f wearing his Merchant Navy Captain uniform, with a row of ribbons on his chest, taken c.1930.
Through asking a question in a genealogy magazine about what the ribbons were awarded for, was told that his forth medal was most likely a RNR Long Service Good Conduct Medal, as listed in TNA's series ADM 171/71, receiving it in 1919, described as a seaman not an officer.
Regards,
Brian


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## BrianP

Hello Hugh,
Here is the other side of John Todd's C.R.10 Card and one of him in his uniform.
Regards,
Brian


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## Hugh MacLean

Hello Brian,
Thanks for the extra information.

Firstly, whoever told you that the fourth medal along was the RNR Long Service & GC Medal has got pretty good eyes because I cannot make it out.

Anyway I have checked ADM 171/71 and there is indeed a J Todd with the RNR Long Service & GC Medal awarded in 1919. He has the official number C/3100. Unfortunately when I check this against ADM 171/171 RNR campaign medals I can see J Todd with the official number 3100/C which I think is the same number albeit the 'C' is used as a prefix in one and a suffix in the other - the bad news is that official number belongs to a Joseph Todd. I will copy the relevant details shortly.

According to the CR 10 card your g/f also served on DIVIS official number 87466 - date of engagement, 21st February 1920. He also served on AVANVILLE official number 143514 - date of engagement, January 1921. 

Regards
Hugh


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## Hugh MacLean

Hello Brian,
Please see below the attached where I draw my conclusions from.

The first one is from ADM 171/71 (RNR LS&GC Medal). The second is from ADM 171/171 (RNR campaign medals). 

With regard to your first post, I think you were looking for him in the wrong file. MMR = Mercantile Marine Reserve.

Regards
Hugh


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## BrianP

Hello Hugh,
Here is a high resolution scan showing his medal ribbons, does this help identify his medals.
Regards,
Brian


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## Hugh MacLean

Brian,
I am sorry, even if I had perfect vision - which I don't - I wouldn't be able to distinguish the medals. I would presume he has the standard WW1 campaign medals.

I have checked the Merchant Navy WW1 medals and cannot see his name. I have also checked the ADM 171 series and cannot see him. Do you have any other evidence to suggest he was in the RNR/RNVR? 

Regards
Hugh


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## BrianP

Hello Hugh,
Here is a newspaper clipping about John Todd, it mentions he served as a second officer during WWI. As far as I know he only served in the Merchant Navy, only the reply in the magazine suggested he was awarded the RNR Long Service Good Conduct Medal.
Thanks for all your help searching for answers,
Brian


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## Hugh MacLean

Hello Brian,
My thinking is that he served in the Merchant Navy during WW1 and 2 and the information referring to the RNR LS & GC Medal may have been given in error. I could of course be wrong but based on the evidence I have found so far that's what I think.
Unfortunately there is no medal file for WW1 in the Merchant Navy files available at Kew for him. There is file for John Todd for WW2 - It may or may not be him:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D4329461 this file indicates medals issued or claimed. Costs £3.36 to download but there will probably not be any other identifying information in the file.

As he was a master during WW2, I wonder if there may be any detail regarding his service held the in Lloyd's Captains Registers at the London Metropolitan Archives, I will ask Roger Griffiths if he can comment on that one for me.

Regards
Hugh


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## BrianP

Hugh,
I look forward to any further details.
Regards,
Brain


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello Hugh, Brian.
Lloyds Captains Register only includes holders of foreign-trade masters' certificates, including some who served only as mates . It would seem from the newspaper cutting that he sailed in the Home trade. You need to find out if he had a foreign trade certificate otherwise its a no go. It can be a little complicated seaching records 1912 to 1947. Rather than attempt an explanation, it all depends on how Brian wishes to procced. Can you get to LMA yourself or will you use their research service?

regards
Roger


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## Hugh MacLean

Thank you for your input and explanation Roger, having now gone through all of the above medal records I am now clutching at straws. Brian's g/f is not listed in BT 351 (Index of First World War Mercantile Marine Medals and the British War Medal (1914-1925)) which, if anything like those in BT 395 (WW2), will not be complete.

Regards
Hugh


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## Roger Griffiths

Hugh,it may be worth looking in BT352.
Indexes to Certificates of Competency, Masters, Mates, Engineers and Fishing Officers, Home and Foreign Trade 1910-1969. and then following up from there. Unfortunatly these records are on Mircofilm so it would need a trip to Kew.
Is there anything on him in the Navy List or ADM177?

regards
Roger


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## Hugh MacLean

Thanks again Roger, at least it gives Brian further pointers to possible details of his grandfather's career albeit details of WW1 medals may not be mentioned directly.
Regards
Hugh


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## BrianP

Hello Hugh & Roger,
You have both been very helpful with my request, and thank you for the other search options.
Regards,
Brian


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## BrianP

Correction,
The uniform that John Todd is wearing, is for a Merchant Navy Chief Officer, not Captain. Correction comes from the genealogy magazine.
Brian


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## Hugh MacLean

Someone correct me if I am wrong but how can they tell that? The photo doesn't show the rings on his sleeve.

Regards
Hugh


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## Duncan112

I wondered that too, all I could think of was the lack of scrambled egg on the cap peak?


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## BrianP

Here is the full size picture of John Todd.
Brian


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## Hugh MacLean

Thanks Brian - photo confirms he was Chief Officer at the time.
Regards
Hugh


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## ernestjames

I have a copy of a T.359 crew agreement for the ss Divis, Official no 87466, covering the period 14 Jan 1916 to 17 June 1919. The original is held at PRONI. ref TRANS. 2A/51/33A. The ship was owned by Thomas Jack of Larne and was working as an Admiralty transport which meant that the merchant seaman crew was subject to the Naval Discipline Act. 
The boatswain across this period was J Todd from Glynn who said he was 23 in January 1916. He had served in Divis previous to the January 1916 agreement. He signed on and was discharged in Leith.
I suspect that this man is your John Todd as he was back on the Divis by Feb 1920 according to his CR10 card.
best wishes
ernestjames


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