# Shipyard workers vote to strike (BBC News)



## SN NewsCaster (Mar 5, 2007)

Hundreds of shipyard workers in Portsmouth vote to go on strike over changes to working conditions.

More from BBC News...


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## AncientBrit (Oct 6, 2007)

The good old British union worker demonstrating why no one with half a brain will employ one of them. So very sad! Almost as if the unions still getting their instructions from Moscow.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Another good reason why the new carriers should have been built in South Korea. Mind you Ancient Brit, half the lazy b-----ds emigrated to Canada and screwed up our shipbuilding industry.


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Having spent a considerable time in the Canadian Shipbuilding industry I only came across 1 brit who was in any way interested in the union ( he was president of a local in one of my shops and I had the pleasure of firing him )

I find your comment offensive toward the many who emigrated and provided sound knowledge and leadership in the industry .
Derek


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## salvina (Feb 14, 2008)

So what else is new?!! Their own worst enemies. Maggie Thatcher was right.


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## AncientBrit (Oct 6, 2007)

AncientBrit said:


> "I find your comment offensive toward the many who emigrated and provided sound knowledge and leadership in the industry .
> Derek"
> 
> I'm sure that Keltic Star wasn't talking about the half that incuded thee and me, he was talking about the other half Derek. We have all met them, if it isnt done the way it was back in the UK, then its being done wrong.
> When one takes a look at Canada's ship building industry, the vast number of vessels that were built over here and indeed gave good service during and long after the end of WW2. I dont believe that there was a great need to look elsewhere of leadership and inovation. The problem came after the war with the immigrants from UK convinced there was only one way to do things and that was the British/union way. To judge the success of this movement, one only needs look at the decline across the country as yards were priced out of the market. If it wasnt for Federal/Provincial contracts and the seemingly endless supply of taxpayers dollars thrown at shipyards for political purposes rather than practical, there would be no Canadian shipbuilding industry. I guess you could say....Just like in Jolly Old! (Cloud)


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## Richie2012 (Apr 15, 2007)

Its our democratic right to take industrial action!!!!!!!


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## Richie2012 (Apr 15, 2007)

Maggie Thatcher right? You having some sort of laugh?


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## Nick Balls (Apr 5, 2008)

The UK is still very capable of building ships.....I worked on one of the last ships built at Appledores in Devon and she is brilliant !!!!! Compared to this total crap coming out of China. Up here at Great yarmouth we still build some good steel hulls for the Fishing industry and now some new aluminum vessels are also taking shape. The problem was that over the last 20 years no serious investment has taken place..... It's effect unfortunately has now come home to roost............ all we are training for round here now is people for the "Performing Arts" A real bunch of Clowns !!!!! The union is certainly little help but for goodness sake Margaret Thatcher was no friend to this industry !!!!!!!!!!!


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

While I agree with the whole of Nick's posting, I think these men have chosen a bad time to strike, and may find their jobs taken at lower conditions by people from the Eastern European countries.

Regards Robert


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## Richie2012 (Apr 15, 2007)

I agree with Nick Balls message, i have just come off a UK built ship of 31,500gt, built in the early 00s and it was a great ship to work on nothing really went wrong it was great. 
In my view one the greatest ships to built are the yorkshire drydock vessels vessels now coming upto 30years old and still going strong proper work horses and they take more abuse than most ships, the steel work onboard are brilliant you want to see some of the decks of these vessels they are like brand new still at 25 years old


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

AncientBrit said:


> AncientBrit said:
> 
> 
> > "I find your comment offensive toward the many who emigrated and provided sound knowledge and leadership in the industry .
> ...


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

Which foriegn yards built the "bridge" boats ?

Maersk who I believe is one of the biggest owners in the world build many ships but how many in the UK.

Maggie put more money in my pocket and got rid of the dross, maybe if the unions allowed modern practises to happen in the ship yards things could have been different. 

The unions banned the use of MIG welders at Scott Lithgows due to the unions thinking that there would be the loss of the welders mate and the 80 new machines sat idle for years until sold off. Mean while the foriegn yards were using them as much as possible. 

Soon there will be absolutely no ship building left except for some small yards. 

I so wanted to be a fitter at Swan Hunters as a kid, dreamt about it really. 

Terrible


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## AncientBrit (Oct 6, 2007)

I have chastised my fingers for typing JoK while my brain is saying Keltic Star.
I fully realise that they are two different people and am contrite to the Nth degree for my foolish error. 
I would also point out that a Moderator should be above arrogant sarcasm!


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## GWB (Jul 11, 2007)

WE have same problems here in Australia the unions are lead by guy who live in 60s and cant get their heads around progress shame of it, all most are inclined to be ex pom's, jock's, etc. who are the instigators or leaders.
We are building a $50 Billion gas plant in WA and 70% will be built in Asia.

George


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Derek Roger said:


> Having spent a considerable time in the Canadian Shipbuilding industry I only came across 1 brit who was in any way interested in the union ( he was president of a local in one of my shops and I had the pleasure of firing him )
> 
> I find your comment offensive toward the many who emigrated and provided sound knowledge and leadership in the industry .
> Derek


Derek, correct me if I am wrong, but I understand, you came to Canada to work in Saint John Shipyard during the construction of the Canmar Kigoriak, which by the way was built with "19 cent" petroleum depletion dollars at the expense of the Canadian taxpayer. 

Long before your arrival on these shores. the Canadian shipbuilding industry on both coasts had already been decimated by union minded immigrant Brit. shipyard workers and incompetent management of the same ilk. In those days the yards were known as Vickers, Yarrows and Hawker Siddley, certainly not historic Canadian corporations.

The Saint John shipyards reputation, being what it was for union strife, necessitated the Province of New Brunswick providing Canmar with performance bonds to guarantee a strike free building period during the construction of the Kigoriak. Any stoppages by the workers would have reflected in higher provincial taxes for everyone in New Brunswick including the dockyard matey's neighbours.

As common in the oil industry, Canmar's parent had a phobia about the havoc unions can create and as the main marine sub-contractor to the Beaufort Sea operation, the company I worked for was highly involved in ensuring that unionization never happened on or off ship. Publicly, we spent five years fighting union access applications in the courts but some of the behind the scenes actions that took place are better left untold.

Having been involved in the Canadian shipbuilding scene for eons and as a client have been a victim, of shoddy workmanship, avoidable delivery delays and padded bills, particularly in your ex yard, I stand by the comments I made.

Ironically, supervising new builds and refits in Germany, South Korea, Italy, South Africa and Singapore, the experiences were a distinct pleasure, on time and on budget.


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## Richie2012 (Apr 15, 2007)

MARINEJOCKY;358176
Maggie put more money in my pocket and got rid of the dross said:


> that women ruined this country, tens of thousands of miners lost their jobs industry was ruined in this country


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

AncientBrit said:


> I have chastised my fingers for typing JoK while my brain is saying Keltic Star.
> I fully realise that they are two different people and am contrite to the Nth degree for my foolish error.
> I would also point out that a Moderator should be above arrogant sarcasm!


Thanks for that Ancient Brit ! Sorry I was unable to pass up the oppotunity ; as you say I should know better .

Back to the subject ; Canada was in great need in the 70's for trained shipbuilders of all trades . Many came from Britain ; Germany and Portugal and complimented the workforce .
The reason was and is that there was no formal apprenticeship scheme in shipbuilding for young people to join and learn .


Regards Derek


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Keltic Star said:


> Derek, correct me if I am wrong, but I understand, you came to Canada to work in Saint John Shipyard during the construction of the Canmar Kigoriak, which by the way was built with "19 cent" petroleum depletion dollars at the expense of the Canadian taxpayer.
> 
> Long before your arrival on these shores. the Canadian shipbuilding industry on both coasts had already been decimated by union minded immigrant Brit. shipyard workers and incompetent management of the same ilk. In those days the yards were known as Vickers, Yarrows and Hawker Siddley, certainly not historic Canadian corporations.
> 
> ...


Every one is entitled to their opinion however I should perhaps correct the record . I came to Canada initially at Davie Shipbuilding Quebec and followed as Owner Rep for the building of the MV Artic @ Port Weller Drydock .
I did work at Saint John Shipbuilding as project Manager for a number of vessels including tankers for Shell . I was also Project manager for the Canmar Kigoriak which was won in open world wide competition . The vessel was designed and built in record time ( 9 months and 14 days ) and as such was able to enter the Arctic while the North West passage was still pasable in September . The Japanese bid was higher priced and they required 18 months to design and build which is why Saint John was awarded the contract .
I later managed Pictou Industries during which time we Built the 1050 Icebreaker Earl Grey .
All these projects were on time ;on budget.

Further during the timeframe mentioned I never met any union activities led or motivated by Brits .

Derek


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## gorach (Jul 11, 2009)

MARINEJOCKY said:


> Maggie put more money in my pocket and got rid of the dross,


Maggie put most of us on the dole and had this country on its knees,(MAD)


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## salvina (Feb 14, 2008)

gorach said:


> Maggie put most of us on the dole and had this country on its knees,(MAD)


Who told you that Gorach, your Dad?(Cloud)


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

Gorach & Richie2012

you are both entitled to your views just like I am entitled to mine. Mine is that maggie did put alot more money in my pocket and into alot of others who wanted to work hard and get on with their lives. 

I have posted on other threads that I tried to take a large ship building order to either Tyneside or Sunderland but thanks to a Labor government minister it was decided to keep the Sunderland yard closed and it was turned into a park. 

Why. because we did not want a union yard even though we were willing to pay for that and give the workers high wages and good benefits. We built the ships in Korea. 

I lived in Ashington which at one time was the largest coal mining village in the world and many people lost their jobs, did they blame Maggie, yes some did but alot of them realized that if the Unions had given a little things could have been different.

You will be telling me next that Scargill etc would have been better, yes at brain washing folk but not at creating jobs and putting money in your pocket. 

I am in the yachting business now and have tried to bring new builds to the UK but nobody wants to touch that country, why, the attitude and the unions, sad but true. 

There are literally hundreds of millions being spent on yachts but the UK has only a tiny percentage of the mega yacht work. 

The Labor government gave in to the EC and let the foreign fishing boats into our waters and when the oil is finished in the North Sea what will happen then. 

Let them put the final nail in, at least then you can try and sort something out when the only jobs available are as somebody else said, H & S.


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## dundalkie (Mar 15, 2006)

hey Marine Jockey, Maggie (at the time my local MP) put loads of money in my pocket. I did not earn a penny of it. I bought British gas, telecoms, abbey, woolich, Etc. shares. i did not make a fortune like some people I know, but I did well. never worked for a penny of it. Spent it well on wine women and song when I was able. Now I smile secretly to myself and watch as the bills mount. its your children and grandchildren that will have to pay for it. I never had much time for Scargill but he was right. To me it was the right war but the wrong general and the wrong strategy. But thats another story
i


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

Maybe less wine, women & song back then and you would be really thanful to her now. 

I look at having worked to make the money to buy the shares I then worked hard to make it grow and sold some at the right time and invested that money in other things all the time growing it. Making the money grow was hard work and still is today, the easy option is to blame Maggie for you going out and p1ssing it all away. 

My children etc are going to afford to do what they want and that is from Maggie reducing my taxes from what was 92% at one stage and also allowing me to buy my council house and being able to sell it at a profit. 

Going back to my other posting, I have just talked to 2 of my other surveyors who have just completed the final survey inspection of a 130 foot Italian built boat that was built brand new and sold for 51 million US dollars. Its a shame those type can not be built in the UK. 

In that particular yard everybody is a sub contractor, no direct employees and definately no unions


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## AncientBrit (Oct 6, 2007)

Just to illustrate the priorities of the TUC.
In very late 60's while I was living in London, the Garbage pick-up men went on strike for a minimum living wage of 25 pounds a week. At the same time at Dagenham, some enterprising guy took an electric frying pan into the lunch room and was making and selling bacon sangies. When the siren went at the end of lunch break, there were still some folks lined up waiting to get their sangies. bosses came in and said forget it, lunch is over, back to work! They of course went on strike over this totally unfair treatment.
Now enter the TUC, protector of the needy working man.....
The Garbage mans strike was declared a wildcat and they would get no help from the TUC.
The Auto workers sangie line up was sanctioned by the TUC.
The guys that wanted a living wage were on their own. The guys that at that time were earning a pound an hour and were prepared to go on strike over a bloody bacon sandwich were given full support.
It was around that time that I made up my mind to get out. The night I flew out of Heathrow was the first night of towns turning off street lighting to save money and industry going on 3 day work week. Was strange to be flying over UK and seeing hardly a light. 
Sadly the UK is still fighting the class war while the rest of the world without such a hard, historically defined class divide is moving on to better things.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Derek Roger said:


> Every one is entitled to their opinion however I should perhaps correct the record . I came to Canada initially at Davie Shipbuilding Quebec and followed as Owner Rep for the building of the MV Artic @ Port Weller Drydock .
> I did work at Saint John Shipbuilding as project Manager for a number of vessels including tankers for Shell . I was also Project manager for the Canmar Kigoriak which was won in open world wide competition . The vessel was designed and built in record time ( 9 months and 14 days ) and as such was able to enter the Arctic while the North West passage was still pasable in September . The Japanese bid was higher priced and they required 18 months to design and build which is why Saint John was awarded the contract .
> I later managed Pictou Industries during which time we Built the 1050 Icebreaker Earl Grey .
> All these projects were on time ;on budget.
> ...


Derek, I was not trying to elicit a resume from you or question your credentials, it was just that any of your posts that I have read just mentioned your time at Saint John Shipyard. Furthermore I was not suggesting that you would have necessarily met Brits leading or motivating union activities during your tenure, They had already spread their rot into the Canadian shipbuilding scene long before that. 

As for the Kigoriak, financial considerations also had to take into account the fact that a Japanese built ship would have attracted a 25% import duty rate under the Coasting Trade of Canada Act, which is designed to protect the Canadian shipbuilding industry and that the super depletion tax credit could only be claimed for purchases within Canada. Twenty five percent less and an 81% tax credit certainly tickled Jack Gallagher's sense of humour.

The original concept on the table was to build an Ice Class 10 breaker in a joint venture with Canadian Coast Guard. Dome using the vessel in the Beaufort in summer and CCG using it in the St. Lawrence during the winter months. As usual the government could not get off it's butt and Dome went ahead with the lower Ice Class 4 Kigoriak.

I am not disputing the record build time, it was needed to get the Kigoriak on station as the Johnny Mac was under time charter at astronomical rates and the Fed's wanted her back for the winter season.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

AncientBrit said:


> ...................
> Sadly the UK is still fighting the class war while the rest of the world without such a hard, historically defined class divide is moving on to better things.


Ancient Brit; I think you are right on the mark, even to the extent that they still have a two tier medical system, if you can afford it, you jump in front of the line by going "private".


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## dundalkie (Mar 15, 2006)

Marine jockey! 92% tax. Even at the worst of times my wealthy friends in north london were not paying that.


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## Nick Balls (Apr 5, 2008)

Marinejockey, you are indeed entitled to your view....
However I can not believe that with the benefit of history ANYONE could think that Maggie did the right thing !!! Yes I would agree that there was a requirement to change British working practices. However it is clear to all that this did not go well. Take a look at the present situation!!! We are in deep S**t. All those years ago Maggie broke the social bonds that bound the country together, This has never been changed since (New Labour). Unlike our near continental friends we threw caution to the winds, Allowed a bunch of wealthy "Thugs" to dictate a greed based autocracy , which will end if not corrected in very serious social upheaval( Revaloution?) The French and Germans look on in horror and we are now in danger of becoming de-coupled with the european economy (Our biggest market) 
OK so you did well ! But take a look in our schools ( 33% leave school illiterate ,twice the European average) Take a look at the NHS ! Even basic drugs are being rationed here, let alone anything else) Take a look at industry !!!! Do you really think that Vauxhall will survive the next ten years!!! VW already are announcing new engine designs that are 10% more efficient than their already brilliant designs. 
As for Shipping .......... we just entirely missed a huge boom in shipping! Lack of investment, lack of training, lack of interest , The city boys were to busy lapping up Leaman Bros and had absolutely nothing to stop them !!
What's left .....DEBT !!!!! you and I may not be in debt but it is you and I who are about to pay for Maggies legacy


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