# What are your thoughts?



## 46616 (Apr 24, 2010)

I thought that this topic might interest some here, particularly those who are retired and may own boats (and have sailed with those without professional sea-going experience).

http://www.britishseafarers.co.uk/pleasure-craft-how-are-they-regulated/

What do you think?

Kind regards,
Jack.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

I'm not up to date with the UK regulations but understand that like the USA, they are pretty non existent.

In Canada anyone not professionally certified needs a Pleasure Craft Operators Certificate if operating a boat with a motor over 9.9 hp.
see the regs at: 

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/debs-obs-paperwork-paperwork_operatorfaq-2233.htm

We also have a mandatory requirement to carry minimal safety equipment according to size of recreational craft. 

See "Safe Boating Guide"

Its all very minimal but at least its better than nothing.

Like the MCA in the UK, Transport Canada has Small Craft Construction Regulations which ensure that a boat is safely built and these regs are certainly not easy to get around.


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## kewl dude (Jun 1, 2008)

http://www.latitude38.com/letters/201508.html

August 2015 Latitude 38 monthly San Francisco Bay area yachting magazine.

Just yesterday I read the below in the Letters to the Editor section.

Quote

WHAT LICENSES ARE REQUIRED IN EUROPE?

I read with great interest the Changes note on the Wanderer and de Mallorca's summer cruising in the canals of Europe. I assume that the European Union, being as regulated as it is, must require boating licenses to operate a motorized canal boat. Is that true? What is required for a non-Euro citizen to operate a boat in Europe? Are you using Doña de Mallorca's Coast Guard 100-ton license for that purpose?

I ask because I have no certifications or licenses, although I have been sailing on San Francisco Bay for 35 years, and before that on the lakes of Colorado. There was no problem with my chartering a boat in the British Virgins even though I didn't have a license, but I assume that it would be a problem for the self-taught mariner to charter or otherwise operate a boat in Europe.

Bill Rathbun
Vector, C&C 38-2
Berkeley

Bill — You might as well have said, 'Tell me some stories about government foolishness, incompetence and/or corruption around the world.' While you made an intelligent assumption in your last sentence, it's an incorrect assumption because so much of what government does is just plain stupid. Let us explain.

European countries do not have the same boating rules and licensing requirements as the United States. To give you one example, when you buy a boat in France or Belgium or England, you get a title and register it as you would in the United States. In the more free-wheeling Netherlands, your bill of sale is your proof of ownership — although if you want to spend a couple thousand dollars more, you can get a title from the Dutch, too.

To prove a similar lack of uniformity in the EU, if you're going to operate a canal boat in the Netherlands, you don't need any kind of operator's license. However, if you want to operate one in Belgium or France, you need both an International Certificate of Competence (ICC) and a CENVI, the latter being an endorsement for using a boat on canals and rivers.

There is an exception to this rule. If you've never been on a boat in your life, don't know port from starboard, the bow from the stern (or your ass from your elbow), you don't need a license to operate a charter boat on the canals and rivers in France. Why would lifelong mariners need a license to operate a boat on French canals and rivers when a complete novice wouldn't? It's all about the money, isn't it? If everybody who wanted to charter a canal boat needed to get an ICC and a CENVI endorsement first, the lucrative French canal charter business would have dried up long ago.

Are we saying that the French government policy is putting commerce ahead of common sense and safety? That would be rude, so we'll let you draw your own conclusions. Before anybody makes any wisecracks about the intelligence of the French government compared with ours in California, be aware that exactly the same thing is about to happen in the Golden State as a result of SB941's being passed by Gov. Jerry Brown and the Legislature. The new law, which will be gradually implemented over a number of years depending on the applicant's age, will require that boat operators get 'a card', sort of a cheesy version of a license, showing they know what they're doing on a boat.

Who will be about the only ones exempt from needing to have such a 'card'? "A person operating a rental vessel."

Among the most popular vessels rented are personal watercraft (PWC). PWCs account for only 13% of the vessels in California, yet they are involved in a wildly disproportionate 65% of California boating accidents, and a disproportionate number of fatalities. As far as we can tell, the only explanation for Gov. Brown and the California Legislature making SB941 law with this exemption is that they: 1) Are incredibly stupid; 2) Have no concern for the health and welfare of mariners; or 3) Had members of the PWC industry stuffing money, literally or metaphorically, into their pockets. Maybe California has become like Greece, the birthplace and graveyard of democracy, where applicants for driver's licenses are expected to put between $100 and $300 in a little envelope and give it to the person in charge of issuing licenses.

We're told that the governor and legislature are now working on legislation that would make it illegal for Hertz, Avis and all the other rental car companies to require that people who rent cars have driver's licenses. Or for there to be a minimum age for a person to be able to rent a car. We think this is a joke, but given SB941, we can't be sure.

Anyway, the time it takes to get an ICC can vary greatly depending on the country. We have friends in the French West Indies who had to go to classes every night for a week or two, and prove they could swim, before they were allowed to take the test. When giving the ICC test, the instructor conveniently left the room, giving everybody a chance to ask others if they weren't certain of the answers to a question. Sort of like at the DMV offices in California.

A month before we were to fly to our boat in the Netherlands, we weren't sure if we were going to be able to operate it legally outside the country. This was because the United States didn't sign up for the agreement of about 42 countries on ICC and CENVI testing and licensing, and because we were told you had to be a resident of the country you were taking those tests in. In other words, there was no legal way for a U.S. citizen to get the license needed to operate a boat in French rivers and canals. It wasn't going to be a problem in the free-wheeling Netherlands, as the Dutch don't care if you have a license.

But we just happened to be talking to a yacht broker in Ireland about boats, and at the end of about an hour-long conversation — he was Irish, after all — we mentioned the problem with our trying to get a license to use the boat in France and Belgium. "You're in luck," the broker said. "I'm one of those certified to give those tests." Knowing that it had taken our friends a week or more of classes to pass the test, we asked how long it would take. "If you know what you're doing," he replied, "it shouldn't take more than the morning for the both of you to pass the on-the-water ICC test. I'll just check your boathandling and man overboard recovery skills. And in the afternoon you can take the written CENVI test."
When we mentioned that we didn't think we could take the test in Ireland, he said that sure we could. He said that we could, in fact, take it at any Royal Yacht Squadron facility in England.

"But it's our understanding that a person has to be a citizen of the country where they're taking the test, which is why the English say we can't take the test in their country."

"The English are like that, aren't they?" he laughed with a bit of scorn. "If you come and take the test here in Ireland, you'll be spending a night or two here, at which time you'll be residing in Ireland, won't you? We Irish know how to bend the rules without breaking them," he said with more laughing.

So we changed our plane reservations from Amsterdam to Dublin, and one windy, rainy morning on the River Shannon, demonstrated that we indeed knew how to handle a boat. So we both got our ICCs.

Now we needed the CENVI endorsement, which you get by passing a moderately difficult written test. The problem was that no matter how much we'd searched the Internet, we were unable to find a guidebook to the CENVI rules — at least without being asked to pay a small fortune. And there are some counterintuitive things you need to know. So our instructor/tester gave us a guide book and said he'd be back that evening to give the test. The Wanderer and de Mallorca spent the afternoon in a hotel room cramming as for a final during our university days. We took the test that evening and passed. About 10 days later, the Irish Yachting Association sent us our ICCs and CENVIs. The ICCs have our photos on them and resemble a California driver's license.

In two months on the rivers and canals of the Netherlands, Belgium and France, and having gone through probably 150 locks, many of them manned, nobody has asked to see our ICCs or CENVIs.

We've since been told by H.G. 'Rags' Laragione of the Maritime Institute in San Diego that you can be checked out by their organization, or one in Annapolis, to get your ICC, and they can also give the CENVI test. This contradicts what we've read and been told, but things change and they probably know more than we do. Give them a call.

Want more on European licensing weirdness? If you have a VHF on your boat on the canals and rivers of Europe, and you certainly should, as all manned locks monitor a specified VHF channel, you need to take a three-day course. Three days to learn how to use a VHF!? Our guy in Ireland didn't give the course, not that we had an extra three days to take it anyway. But there's an out. If your boat doesn't have a VHF — they are not required except on the Seine around Paris and certain other spots — you don't have to take the course or test.

Anybody out there still have any faith in the intelligence and efficacy of government? Any government?

Having spent two months on Majestic Dalat in the rivers and canals of the Netherlands, Belgium and France, we can attest to the fact that it's a great alternative six months for those who are doing 'six and six' with their sailboats in the tropics. You can get all you need in a modest Dutch steel canal boat for $20,000, about the price of an RV in the States. And Europe, thanks to the exchange rate, has been shockingly inexpensive. That includes berthing, often less than $12 a night with water, electricity, and heads and shower, and sometimes free. Off-season storage can be inexpensive, too, often just $100 a month. Inland boats are usually hauled every three or four years. And get this, we have yet to encounter one rude French waiter, let alone French person.

While the countryside and cities like Amsterdam, Maastricht and Paris have been fabulous, there are downsides of canal and river cruising. 1) Unlike sailing, there is no Zen to powerboating, nor is there much sense of adventure or accomplishment. It's all about the destinations, which are great. 2) It's surprisingly tedious, as the canals and rivers are often no more than 50 feet wide, and you constantly have to make minor corrections to your course. 3) You have to go through zillions of locks, particularly in France, where one day we had to go through 25 in five hours. Because of the tedium of driving, going through the locks and raising and lowering fenders countless times, you get as wiped out at the end of the day as if you were sailing on the ocean. 4) Due to low speed limits — often less than five mph — all the locks you have to go through, broken locks, giving priority to commercial traffic, the fact the locks close four hours before sundown, and because of often twisty waterways, you don't cover much ground in a day. Thirty nautical miles would be a big day, and as the crow flies to your next destination, maybe only 15 miles. Amsterdam to Paris by train is a couple of hours. We did the same trip with Majestic Dalat in five weeks. And we were pushing it. 5) Fuel is very expensive. The solution to most of these downsides is to greatly limit your range, and to mostly use the boat as a houseboat in a couple of great cities not too far apart. The two weeks we spent at the ****nal Marina near the heart of Paris, for example, were fabulous.

We don't think a canal boat is an alternative to cruising on a sailboat, but for three to five months a year, it's a great change of pace packed with history and culture you can't find in the tropics.

Unquote

Attached: Latitude38.jpg (136.4 KB)

Greg Hayden


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## Tony Collins (Aug 29, 2010)

The responsible boater can take advantage of a number of courses available. For example here in the industrial midlands of the UK a recent course offered at one of the "night schools" was one in "Coastal Navigation" You can hardly get further from the sea but the course was fully subscribed. 

I was a boater in the inland waterways of Britain for over forty years, and I had no formal training other than a Short Range Radio Operator's Licence. There are day courses available even for canal's where the maximum beam is likely to be seven feet. often much greater than the depth. I experienced canal and river navigations, both tidal (which is I why I felt I needed the radio licence)and non-tidal. I consider myself a competent boat handler, but would never venture to sea without further training and/or a pilot and an adequate vessel.

Sadly my reticence is not reflected in some and I fear that should things get out of hand, regulation will be forced upon us. This may satisfy the risk averse within us, but it will no doubt seek to quell the adventure and thrill of slightly exceeding one's experience and venturing upon a very steep learning curve. 

I have sailed a small yacht in the English Channel and in the Baltic Sea and had the excitement that comes with that, but I was always with a more experienced skipper. This did not diminish the enjoyment I had at that time, indeed I would say that having someone to learn off whilst aboard enhances it.

So to any would-be sailors out there, I would say get some instruction and learn the skills to enjoy your pastime before exceeding your ability.


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## Pete D Pirate (Jan 8, 2014)

Greg,
Your post #3... Most interesting. Thanks for that.


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## kewl dude (Jun 1, 2008)

re: " I would say get some instruction and learn the skills to enjoy your pastime before exceeding your ability."

That is what my ex-wife and I did late 1980s. A San Diego Mission Bay company named Sailing Solutions. Every Saturday 8 AM to 5 PM mornings was classroom book learning out on the water all afternoon. 

25 foot Catalina without an auxiliary engine - "you want to learn how to sail or to motor?" So we learned how to sail everywhere we went. First thing we were taught was Williamson turns. Teacher would throw a floating cushion over the side and we had to come back and pick it up. 

Next we worked on purposely going aground then getting off without help. Then we spent a great deal of time sailing into and out of Marina docks. After awhile he would observe us from his own Catalina eventually he felt we should practice alone. 

Right now I cannot recall the names of all the progressive classes we took. Somewhere around here there should be some certificates? But the last one was a weekend long Coastal Piloting course on a 44 foot center cockpit boat with six other students + two instructors.

Greg Hayden


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## Dartskipper (Jan 16, 2015)

Some sort of legislation should be mandatory, but knowing how our Civil Servants can cock anything up, I dread to think what scheme they would devise. Most private boat owners are insured, so perhaps an incentive based on a Certificate of Competency qualifying for cheaper insurance, and perhaps mooring fees, might work.
When in Torquay on holiday recently, I visited the tower manned by the National Coas****ch volunteers. While chatting to the two on watch, we received a message from Falmouth Coastguard requesting any sight of a yacht overdue in Brixham. If the yachtsman had been careful enough to log his intended passage with the Coastguard, why then didn't he report any changes of plan? Torquay Coas****ch contacted other stations to the South and West, but they had nothing to report either. Nothing was heard again before I left them, but two yachts were logged as they rounded Berry Head, although neither of them were the missing yachtsman.

Roy.


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## janmike (May 4, 2012)

janmike

After being made redundant from "Shell" I managed to secure the postion of Assistant harbourmaster at Paignton Harbour in Devon. It seemed that as long as a person had enough money to buy a boat, say that it was insured, pay the launch fee. Then off they would go. With or without sandwiches!!


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## Dartskipper (Jan 16, 2015)

janmike said:


> janmike
> 
> After being made redundant from "Shell" I managed to secure the postion of Assistant harbourmaster at Paignton Harbour in Devon. It seemed that as long as a person had enough money to buy a boat, say that it was insured, pay the launch fee. Then off they would go. With or without sandwiches!!


Sounds about right janmike. When he was appearing one summer in Torquay, Jim Davidson bought a speedboat. First trip out of the harbour, he headed for Tor Abbey Sands and wrecked it on the Harbreck Rock. End of Mr Davidson's boating ambitions.

Roy.


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## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

We seem to be in a world where people are increasingly banned from carrying out any reckless activity. If boat owners are required to have a licence this will enable the authorities to remove it for any infringement of safety regulations. Health and safety fanatics will love it!

We must pass a test to legally fly a plane, or to drive a car on the public highway (although not to ride a horse or a bike) so the authorities will no doubt feel thet a licence to take charge of a boat in a seaway is a logical next step.


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## 46616 (Apr 24, 2010)

I think the difficulty is that it is very easy to over-regulate. However, as an OOW it seems senseless to me that whilst I and others have to know ROR and buoyage without hesitation, anyone else can go to sea and ultimately obstruct me in cir***stances where someone could die, or be seriously injured. Even though that is illegal, as mentioned in the articles, reckless boat owners are rarely reprimanded.

The problem is that in those cir***stances, even when there is very little that the OOW can do, the OOW will often face punishment in one way or another, simply because the boat owner was not trained to a basic level.

With all due respect to those who are solely boat owners, particularly those who are sensible and keep out of the way of commercial shipping, it is my personal nightmare when fishing boats and yachts get in the way of the ship. Why? Because I know my head would be on the chopping block if there was a collision; not theirs. Therein lies the biggest problem with the issue, and ultimately, the issue of no legally required training.


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## janmike (May 4, 2012)

janmike

I believe in Australia, at least according to my university employed cousin her boat licence is linked to her driving licence. One accident on is also noted on the other.
That is one worth thinking about.


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## Hamish Mackintosh (Jan 5, 2006)

I am of the opinion that before one is issued a certificate of competence, one should have to demonstrate that competance.As we all had to do in order to attain a lifeboat certificate, I do not see much value in taking an "open book"exam, I saw the new Canadian licensing plan as a blatant tax grab(altho its a start in the right direction).I do not have one, as the examiner deemed my certificates were not "current"(too. Old)so my next question to him was "and how long is this licence good for?" "Life" says he, thats when I left.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Hamish Mackintosh said:


> I am of the opinion that before one is issued a certificate of competence, one should have to demonstrate that competance.As we all had to do in order to attain a lifeboat certificate, I do not see much value in taking an "open book"exam, I saw the new Canadian licensing plan as a blatant tax grab(altho its a start in the right direction).I do not have one, as the examiner deemed my certificates were not "current"(too. Old)so my next question to him was "and how long is this licence good for?" "Life" says he, thats when I left.


Canadian yacht underwriters now require boaters to have the new boating certificate to obtain coverage. The trouble is, its not compulsory to have insurance and like cars, its usually the uninsured that cause an accident.


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## TOM ALEXANDER (Dec 24, 2008)

Hamish Mackintosh said:


> I am of the opinion that before one is issued a certificate of competence, one should have to demonstrate that competance.As we all had to do in order to attain a lifeboat certificate, I do not see much value in taking an "open book"exam, I saw the new Canadian licensing plan as a blatant tax grab(altho its a start in the right direction).I do not have one, as the examiner deemed my certificates were not "current"(too. Old)so my next question to him was "and how long is this licence good for?" "Life" says he, thats when I left.


When the Canadian government first introduced the "Boater's Card" I asked a Coast Guard official at the Vancouver Boat Show whether I needed one since I had a British 2nd. mate's certificate. His answer was that any holder of a commercial ticket shouldn't need a card. 
So--- I dutifully carried a copy of my 2nd. mate's ticket on my 42 steel ketch for over 9 years before I found out in the small print that it only applied to Canadian commercial tickets. I now have taken the test in a mall parking lot (without any study) and only got 95%. I had answered that a power driven vessel didn't always have to give way to a vessel under sail and that apparently is considered wrong. Somewhere 'twixt the cup and the lip the examiners had missed that the power driven vessel is the stand on vessel if being overtaken by the one under sail - with the appropriate north cone hoist in the forepart of the vessel. (Cloud)


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

TOM ALEXANDER said:


> When the Canadian government first introduced the "Boater's Card" I asked a Coast Guard official at the Vancouver Boat Show whether I needed one since I had a British 2nd. mate's certificate. His answer was that any holder of a commercial ticket shouldn't need a card.
> So--- I dutifully carried a copy of my 2nd. mate's ticket on my 42 steel ketch for over 9 years before I found out in the small print that it only applied to Canadian commercial tickets. I now have taken the test in a mall parking lot (without any study) and only got 95%. I had answered that a power driven vessel didn't always have to give way to a vessel under sail and that apparently is considered wrong. Somewhere 'twixt the cup and the lip the examiners had missed that the power driven vessel is the stand on vessel if being overtaken by the one under sail - with the appropriate north cone hoist in the forepart of the vessel. (Cloud)


Thanks for the tip off Tom. Despite having a Masters ticket, commanding Canadian commercial vessels in the past and being a volunteer navigation instructor for the Canadian Power Squadron for over 20 years I had better get my skates on and go out and get myself a Boaters "Bus Ticket" to now stay legal driving a Zodiac (Jester)(Jester)


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## TOM ALEXANDER (Dec 24, 2008)

Keltic Star said:


> Thanks for the tip off Tom. Despite having a Masters ticket, commanding Canadian commercial vessels in the past and being a volunteer navigation instructor for the Canadian Power Squadron for over 20 years I had better get my skates on and go out and get myself a Boaters "Bus Ticket" to now stay legal driving a Zodiac (Jester)(Jester)


Good plan --- but I have to admit, I had a brain pharrt about the cone in the forepart of the vessel -- that is hoist when under both sail and power and therefore the craft would be designated as a power driven vessel -- the vessel under power alone though would still be the designated stand-on vessel.


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## Donald McGhee (Apr 5, 2005)

Here in NZ we have a certain "lunatic" boat owning element, who can own and drive some very substantial vessels, up to 40' in some cases with no qualifications or any sort of regulatory influence. 
I see the rules and local waterway bye laws being broken on a daily basis when engaged in our own tourist excursion trips and think it's long overdue here in NZ that we have some sort of ability to hammer the lunatic fringe, but who is there to catch them?
All the current boating quals are voluntary and in some cases quite expensive, but I reckon if you own a boat you can afford to learn what is required to use it safely, like a car, but no! I think Australia have some sort of regulatory system in place, any comments on this?


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

In Australia's Queensland state,at least , all boats over 3.6 metres in length have to be registered and must display a large bold registration number on each side of the hull.
I think that there may be other forms of regulation as well but not sure.
NZ has next to nothing and the Registration number would be a good idea to start with.

Bob


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## Donald McGhee (Apr 5, 2005)

spongebob said:


> In Australia's Queensland state,at least , all boats over 3.6 metres in length have to be registered and must display a large bold registration number on each side of the hull.
> I think that there may be other forms of regulation as well but not sure.
> NZ has next to nothing and the Registration number would be a good idea to start with.
> 
> Bob


Yeah Bob, thought that might be the case.
Trouble here in NZ is that we are volunteered to death, with any enforcement of many maritime boating regs being left to volunteers. Only in the large ports do we see any sort of Maritime law enforcement.
We need more people and the wherewithal to fund proper enforcement of the few regs we do have.


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

Donald, my mind set is centred on the Waitemata harbour where any weekend the waters are littered with power boats , big and small , that do so stupid things because the pilot has little, if any knowledge of the rules and rudiments of safe boating.
A big bold number would go a long way to curbing their behavior .

Bob


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## Day Sailor (Nov 9, 2014)

In the UK you have to pay for charts but you are rescued without charge by the volunteers of the RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution), a charitable organisation. Plotter manufacturer Garmin will only update a chart once before you have to buy a new one so people don't rush to update.
As I understand it, in the US, you can download charts free from Noah but will be billed if needing rescue. This system would seem more sensible especially on the East coast of the UK with it's frequently changing sand banks.


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