# A fancy new engine....



## 40907

....which I thought may be of interest to our engineering friends.

http://gcaptain.com/wartsilas-secre...ed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Gcaptain+(gCaptain.com)


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## ben27

good day reef knot,sm.today.00:03.re:a fancy new engine,i am not an engineer but i enjoyed watching your link.it is great to see what will drive a ship one day.regards ben27


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## Mad Landsman

That got me wondering... 
How many large ships currently run LNG?
What type of ships are best suited for this type of dual fuel?
What complications are there with LNG bunkering?
Who are the major producers of LNG, apart from fracking?


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## Satanic Mechanic

ah the new VHS vs Betamax

MAN are using HP gas - go look up MEGI which maintains the engine on a Diesel (dual) cycle whether on gas or or liquid fuel

Wartsilla LP 2 stroke is an extension of there 4 stroke range already in use on the D/TFDE LNG tankers. The downside is the now run as lean burn high compression Otto cycle engines with a loss of efficiency and increased methane slip.

Absolutely HUGE market as everyone starts moving towards LNG fuel as a standard on all vessels, at the moment still very much restricted to ferries and LNG tankers. Be interesting to see how it all works out.

Something I have been working on for a while but using HP on LNG we can introduce partial reliquefaction of the boil off by utilising a heat exchanger and Joule thompson valve thereby allowing the vessel to operate over quite a wide range of speeds without ac***ulating gas pressure or 'thermally oxidising' gas (euphemism in the industry for basically flaring). We can actually extend the range further - but thats a wee bit secret at the moment.


oh and the construction photos show a V 4 stroke DF not the new 2 stroke shown in the first few photos. These are very well established engines


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## A.D.FROST

Is this a manufacturing facility or R&D because I thought they were all built in Korea?


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## Satanic Mechanic

Wartsilla 4 stroke DF engines are built in Trieste and assembled near Mokpo (right next to the Formula 1 track actually) in Korea - will probably start production there as well soon. Both facilities are very very nice indeed


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## chadburn

Know your engine design history and read up on Sir Harry Ricardo when it comes to engine design and you will see where the ideas came/pinched from, a man who was ahead of his time when it came to engines of all types.


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## John Jarman

chadburn said:


> Know your engine design history and read up on Sir Harry Ricardo when it comes to engine design and you will see where the ideas came/pinched from, a man who was ahead of his time when it came to engines of all types.


Thanks Chadburn for this info - I hadn't heard of him but Wiki supplied the detail...an amazing man. 

Thanks Reef Knot for the link.

JJ.


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## gordy

chadburn said:


> Know your engine design history and read up on Sir Harry Ricardo when it comes to engine design and you will see where the ideas came/pinched from, a man who was ahead of his time when it came to engines of all types.


Ricardo Mk 3 pre-chamber fuel system on Paxman genny Texaco Gloucester when I was on her 1973.
(Jester)


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## eldersuk

Paxman Ricardo emergency generators on Apapa and Accra.
Situated adjacent to Chief Engs accommodation - not run too often!

Derek


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## Satanic Mechanic

Oh no question that Ricardo was one of the very greatest in pioneers of the internal combustion engine and many of the latest developments are very much based on his theories and developments.

These engines that are gas fueled need a large amount of very fast electronic instrumentation to keep them going and within regulations, the 4 strokes are pretty much a done deal going for a cycle change but the fun one to watch is the hp/lp war for 2 strokes, like I say VHS vs Betamax , ac vs dc, PC vs mac and it has to be said they are playing for enormous stakes


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## A.D.FROST

Its all to do with timing,Right place, right time and that's no joke


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## chadburn

eldersuk said:


> Paxman Ricardo emergency generators on Apapa and Accra.
> Situated adjacent to Chief Engs accommodation - not run too often!
> 
> Derek


Gordy&Derek, Most probably refurbished ex Landing Craft engines, they were plenty available Post War(*)). Chad.


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## chadburn

R65, I have not heard of one fitted to a car, however, it would not surprise me if Sir Harry did not try it as he did fit 
a Rover gas turbine to his private motor yacht which was an ex triple screw GSP "Cordella"? On the centre shaft.


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## duncs

I remember Ricardo petrol/paraffin marine engines as a youngster. The Kelvin/poppet and Kelvin/ricardo. Are they the same? Start on petrol, then change over to paraffin. Very difficult to turn over, as a v young boy.


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## chadburn

Ricardo was really an engine tuner he would take an engine built by another company like Paxman and increase it's flexibility and performance using his skill and knowledge which is why I mentioned him. Barring for the electronics most of the so called 'new' engine designs are really not new at all.


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## Lurch

The Science Museum at Wroughton has the Napier Nomad; even fifty years on it still looks advanced.


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## chadburn

The Deltic photo in my gallery was taken in the 1950's especially for my former apprentice mates who could not quite grasp that this remarkable configuration existed.(Jester)


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## Lurch

Napiers used their technology there as well!


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## 40907

chadburn said:


> The Deltic photo in my gallery was taken in the 1950's especially for my former apprentice mates who could not quite grasp that this remarkable configuration existed.(Jester)


How do I find your gallery? G'us a link! Ta.


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## Satanic Mechanic

chadburn said:


> Ricardo was really an engine tuner he would take an engine built by another company like Paxman and increase it's flexibility and performance using his skill and knowledge which is why I mentioned him. Barring for the electronics most of the so called 'new' engine designs are really not new at all.


Of course peeps have been fiddling with IC engines since their invention. While the general principals may have been tried before in various guises it's only since the development of electronics that many of these principals have become a practical reality. In the four strokes with their cycle change the perennial problem has been knock, so we now have knock sensors on each cylinder interfaced with near infinitely variable gas delivery valves.

The two strokes are a different matter with hp MEGI, probably my choice, remaining on its dual cycle. The thought of running the lp wartsilla as a two stroke petrol engine is pretty good fun though.

It does have to be said though that Ricardo et al did indeed come up with many of the concepts that today's camless variable injection, exhaust valve timing, monitored cylinder conditions have made a functional reality. They were visionaries trying to do things mechanically that we do electronically


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## 5036

duncs said:


> I remember Ricardo petrol/paraffin marine engines as a youngster. The Kelvin/poppet and Kelvin/ricardo. Are they the same? Start on petrol, then change over to paraffin. Very difficult to turn over, as a v young boy.


We had three in the local harbour, all pet/paraffin. Patience required before turning over to paraffin though. A very distinctive sound from them. My father's was made in 1919 and on the infrequent visits to Kelvin Engines at Dobbies Loan, a file was produced and dusted down. It contained the entire history of the engine including owners and spares. The bronze gears were worn out by the Tufnol gears in the gearbox.

I spoke recently with Adam Bergius, 88, of the original Bergius Kelvin family. Quite a character.


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## John King

Hi granny knot whoops I mean reef knot hope your well I enjoyed your thread it was very interesting have great day john k


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## Basil

How do they achieve and time ignition in a low pressure engine?
There was something about <<the ignition process is started via the combustion of a 1% portion of diesel in a pre-chamber. >> but no detail.


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## chadburn

R651400 said:


> ....or maybe this?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_bulb_engine


R65,like yourself I was thinking of a modern version of the hot bulb, both that and Basil's comments go back to the very beginning of the oil engine when there was a pre-injection/ignition system using something like shale oil before the main charge. Despite previous comments on this site the use of the heavy oils was in the 1920's for the Diesel Engine. Nothing new you see just a re-hash as I have indicated before.
The Scott/Still used the same oil on the Diesel Engine side as it used through the burners on the Boiler/Steam side before changing over to the Diesel exhaust gas when underway.


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## chadburn

My favourite marine engine exhaust note came off the Bolinders usually fitted to a Dutch Clog.


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## Mad Landsman

Maybe nothing whatsoever to do with it but I have noted in recent years that motor car engine makers have been putting a lot of effort into developing the Homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) engine and the Premixed charge compression ignition (PCCI) engine. 

Both types seem to use some means of mixing the fuel and air before it gets to the cylinder, the result is higher efficiency and lower emissions. The downside seems to be the amount of complicated control required to regulate not only valve timing but even compression ratio. 

The Mercedes HCCI engine is multi fuel and depending on running parameters uses either spark ignition or compression ignition in the same cylinder.


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## chadburn

Mad Landsman said:


> Maybe nothing whatsoever to do with it but I have noted in recent years that motor car engine makers have been putting a lot of effort into developing the Homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) engine and the Premixed charge compression ignition (PCCI) engine.
> 
> Both types seem to use some means of mixing the fuel and air before it gets to the cylinder, the result is higher efficiency and lower emissions. The downside seems to be the amount of complicated control required to regulate not only valve timing but even compression ratio.
> 
> The Mercedes HCCI engine is multi fuel and depending on running parameters uses either spark ignition or compression ignition in the same cylinder.


ML, you have highlighted the main problem with today's car engines, complex control systems which are very expensive and in future will bring the down the production of the car Diesel engine. The future apparently is electric with a small petrol engine charger back up as with some of the Toyota,s. Bio-Diesel is starting to cause problems with seals.


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## Varley

Or, indeed, the Locomobile. Hardly less hydrocarbon hungry, 'though.


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## 40907

John King said:


> Hi granny knot whoops I mean reef knot hope your well I enjoyed your thread it was very interesting have great day john k


Wise guy! [=P]

It has turned into an interesting thread, hasn't it? You take care!

Ken.


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## chadburn

Reef Knot said:


> How do I find your gallery? G'us a link! Ta.


Sorry RK I missed this, go to my profile and then scroll down too my photos.


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## 40907

chadburn said:


> Sorry RK I missed this, go to my profile and then scroll down too my photos.


Very interesting, thank you! (Thumb)

Wiki has an interesting write-up with animated diagrammes here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Deltic


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## chadburn

The two prototype Deltic trains had the marine version of the Deltic fitted (bang start) and as I understand it, the B.R. Fitters were trained by the R.N. A marine engine with three crankshafts was something of a surprise to my old Apprentice mates in the 1950's.


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## 5036

chadburn said:


> The two prototype Deltic trains had the marine version of the Deltic fitted (bang start) and as I understand it, the B.R. Fitters were trained by the R.N. A marine engine with three crankshafts was something of a surprise to my old Apprentice mates in the 1950's.


... and one of the crankshafts turning the wrong way too?


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## A.D.FROST

chadburn said:


> The two prototype Deltic trains had the marine version of the Deltic fitted (bang start) and as I understand it, the B.R. Fitters were trained by the R.N. A marine engine with three crankshafts was something of a surprise to my old Apprentice mates in the 1950's.


re-engined mv BAHAMA KING(ex.CALIFORNIA STANDARD) 4x 18cyl. Napier-Deltic engines.(Ouch)


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## chadburn

A.D.FROST said:


> re-engined mv BAHAMA KING(ex.CALIFORNIA STANDARD) 4x 18cyl. Napier-Deltic engines.(Ouch)


In which year?


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## Satanic Mechanic

Basil said:


> How do they achieve and time ignition in a low pressure engine?
> There was something about <<the ignition process is started via the combustion of a 1% portion of diesel in a pre-chamber. >> but no detail.


 They all have a pilot injector - methane wont auto ignite. In the case of the four strokes and LP two strokes they have a knock sensor fitted which affects the timing of the pilot injection.


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## A.D.FROST

chadburn said:


> In which year?


Built 1929(2xKrupp 2SSA)cov. Tanker-Bulk carrier 1956 re-engine 1958 and B/U 1961
(did her engines go with the ship to scrap?)


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## 40907

nav said:


> ... and one of the crankshafts turning the wrong way too?


I read somewhere that that design feature was to lessen vibration which it did very dramatically. Don't know how true that is.


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## chadburn

A.D.FROST said:


> Built 1929(2xKrupp 2SSA)cov. Tanker-Bulk carrier 1956 re-engine 1958 and B/U 1961
> (did her engines go with the ship to scrap?)


I am surprised at the year as the none delivery of the Deltics to the RN cost the British Taxpayer a fortune when the "Tons"and "Ford" Class of Warships were built in the 1950's. The "Fords" never achieved their full potential without the Deltic fit and most were placed immediately in Reserve as indeed did a fair number of "Tons" until they were retro fitted with the Deltics, I can remember a new "Ton" Class alongside "Vernon" on its way to Gib to have a conversion to Deltics even though she was the latest spec with the enclosed Bridge.


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## A.D.FROST

chadburn said:


> I am surprised at the year as the none delivery of the Deltics to the RN cost the British Taxpayer a fortune when the "Tons"and "Ford" Class of Warships were built in the 1950's. The "Fords" never achieved their full potential without the Deltic fit and most were placed immediately in Reserve as indeed did a fair number of "Tons" until they were retro fitted with the Deltics, I can remember a new "Ton" Class alongside "Vernon" on its way to Gib to have a conversion to Deltics even though she was the latest spec with the enclosed Bridge.


The Aussies had 2x18 in a new ro-ro built 1961 BASS TRADER.


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## Lurch

> I read somewhere that that design feature was to lessen vibration which it did very dramatically. Don't know how true that is.


The counter rotation of the third crankshaft was to allow for the correct phasing of all three banks. The exhaust piston leads the inlest piston by 20 degrees to uncover the exhaust ports allwing the exhuast to the turbo and the inlet ports are then uncovered by the other piston allowing the scavenging proces to complete.

http://pigeonsnest.co.uk/stuff/deltic/chapter4.pdf


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## Basil

Satanic Mechanic said:


> They all have a pilot injector - methane wont auto ignite. In the case of the four strokes and LP two strokes they have a knock sensor fitted which affects the timing of the pilot injection.


Cunning stuff. I guess you'd have to carry methane as an igniter. (I'll refrain from the obvious smutty jokes  )


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## Satanic Mechanic

Methane is the main fuel but as it has such a high auto ignition temp it needs a pilot injector using Diesel or Heavy to ignite it. Same applies in the LP engines


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## Basil

> Methane is the main fuel but as it has such a high auto ignition temp it needs a pilot injector using Diesel or Heavy to ignite it. Same applies in the LP engines


Thank you, SM. Things have changed a bit since I were lad.


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## Duncan112

Why not use spark ignition in the larger engines - I have worked with Deutz engines that have been converted to run on natural gas and the ignition is initiated by a spark plug fitted where the injector would normally live. 

Incidentally the damage was quite extensive (and expensive!!) when the engine failed to start on the auto cycle twice before firing on the third attempt, igniting the contents of the exhaust trunking - I assume on large marine engines there is some form of purge fan fitted in the uptakes?


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## Satanic Mechanic

a wee bit more on it from Tradewinds


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## chadburn

MAN B&W (HPG system) should have a word with Peter Stephenson who found out to his cost that 'Offshore Structures' floating or fixed are not ships (according to a High Court definition) during the American vessel scrapping saga.


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