# What a damning comment on today's youth



## John Campbell

According to the "Daily Telegraph"today

Pim de Lange, Stena Line's director for the North Sea, said potential seamen were "not fit for the job". 

Union leaders have been in dispute over conditions of pay and service and Stena's use of Filipinos working at Harwich, Essex

Michael Wake: the charity chief, the wasted millions and the women employeesBut Mr de Lange told a local newspaper that the company was struggling to find young, fit people willing to work at sea. 

The comments came after he was recently quoted in a Dutch newspaper saying British workers were "quite fat and covered in tattoos" although he claims his words were taken out of context. 

He said: "You do not get young, fit people wanting these jobs ~ people need to be fit for these jobs ~ that is the bad thing about it. 

"The main thing is that fit people don't want to apply for the jobs. 

"Young people do not want to go to sea any more ~ they don't want to be away from home." 

Mr de Lange said he had now emailed his British workforce to assure them that he had not been criticising them. 

He spoke as the RMT balloted for strike action over the use of Filipino crew on the new superferry, the Stena Britannica. 

Former Harwich mayor Les Double, a town, district and county councillor, said he had been outraged by Mr de Lange's comments about fat workers. 

Cllr Double said: "I think he needs to apologise. I guess he did not think it would get back to England." 

Stena Line is set to launch the Britannica in the next few weeks.


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## Pat Kennedy

"quite fat and covered in tattoos"
No change there then!
Pat(Thumb)


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## Thats another Story

pay peanuts and what do you get?


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## Hawkeye

As you can imagine, the s*** did hit the fan over this. And he has since apologised to us. 
The story was also in Lloyd's List (so we were told, I didn't actually see it), but it was on the front page of the local paper for Harwich.
Most of the work force are now looking at tattoo books and thinking about what to have, just as a wind up.
For the record, I only scored half out of three - I'm not lazy, don't have tattoos, but I do have a few extra pounds, but not that much.


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## Klaatu83

I wouldn't comment on the tattoo aspect. however, I believe it's true that young people aren't interested in going to sea anymore, and that the reason has a lot more to do with the fact that the work is too hard than it has with the fact that they're away from home. Hungry young men from third-world countries are more willing to put up with long hours and hard work than well-fed young men from the more developed countries.


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## Satanic Mechanic

Its not a damning comment at all - it is just simply stating the fact that 'no one wants to go to sea anymore'. Its not just the UK its everywhere in the world, the shortage of people is amazing.

Lets be honest why would you want to go to sea now. Long hours in horrible conditions, few ports, no shore leave, few people on board, paperwork that is verging on mountainous, venomous legislation etc etc. Fact is, the life at sea today is completely pants. Its nothing to do with hard work its the fact that it is a totally carp way of life now. I know a lot of you are retired now or have been away for a while but you have to believe me when I say that life on board a standard merchant ship now can make prison look like a pleasant option, no social life, no bar/movies/social nights. Its not like world travel is an enticement - I can get to Oz and back for a reasonable price nowadays.

The age of the British seaman is well and truly over and has been for along time. Let the Filipino's have their day, they are great workers, highly skilled and for the moment willing to put up with the conditions(though believe me -that is changing)


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## DURANGO

Satanic Mechanic said:


> Its not a damning comment at all - it is just simply stating the fact that 'no one wants to go to sea anymore'. Its not just the UK its everywhere in the world, the shortage of people is amazing.
> 
> Lets be honest why would you want to go to sea now. Long hours in horrible conditions, few ports, no shore leave, few people on board, paperwork that is verging on mountainous, venomous legislation etc etc. Fact is, the life at sea today is completely pants. Its nothing to do with hard work its the fact that it is a totally carp way of life now. I know a lot of you are retired now or have been away for a while but you have to believe me when I say that life on board a standard merchant ship now can make prison look like a pleasant option, no social life, no bar/movies/social nights. Its not like world travel is an enticement - I can get to Oz and back for a reasonable price nowadays.
> 
> The age of the British seaman is well and truly over and has been for along time. Let the Filipino's have their day, they are great workers, highly skilled and for the moment willing to put up with the conditions(though believe me -that is changing)


 I reckon anyone of us who had been to sea as I was in the late 50,s and through the 60,s would wonder if they had landed on another planet ,what I hear is enough for me no thanks .


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## wantok

It is interesting hearing the different perspectives in regards to the lack of young people wanting to go to sea.

The opposite is the case in Australia.

It is almost impossible for a young person to secure a cadetship as a deck or engineering officer in Australia despite, as an island, being highly dependant on sea freight for the export and import of most of our goods.

Virtually all of the vessels trading to and from Australia are foreign owned and crewed with no career opportunities for young Australians wishing to spend a life at sea. Unfortuinately many of these companies are UK and Eurpean owned and managed and offer jobs to their own nationals only. 

The boom sector, vessels working in oil & gas only seems to want to "poach" qualified officers with none of them offering any opportunities at cadet level.

My 20 Year old son has just completed his pre sea training at the Australian Maritime College and is finding the lack of cadetship opportunity depressing to say the least.

It was certainly a lot easier in my day.


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## Thats another Story

turn around for box boats is less than 24 hours the crew has hardly or no shore leave so its just a job now the excitement of seeing new places and people has been taken out of being a seaman. IMHO john


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## sidsal

Wantok: Sorry to hear of your son's frustrations. My opinion is that a creer in shipping these days must be very boring indeed except in cruise ships where you, at least get to see some interesting places. Has he tried P&O etc.
If I were setting out again I would get qualified and go into the big private yacht business. There are lots of megabuck people who have these big boats and who pay big wages . My nephew went as a deckhand and worked his way up until he commanded superyachts owned by rich Italians like Berlusconi and had a great life sailing to exotic places and lying for weeksa in great places. There are firms which recruit crews. I was in NZ in the 80's refitting a 250 ton ketch and we hired 3 NZ people - 2 lads and a girl. Worth investigating I would say !


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## gordy

In my paper it was reported that the Philipino crew were to be paid £2.80/hr.
Anybody else heard this?


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## Klaatu83

JOHN PRUDEN said:


> turn around for box boats is less than 24 hours the crew has hardly or no shore leave so its just a job now the excitement of seeing new places and people has been taken out of being a seaman. IMHO john


The container ships I was on usually spent no more than 8-12 hours in port, generally in places so remote that there was no possibility of going ashore anyway. Modern container terminals require a great deal of real estate, which means they're usually constructed far from urban areas. The result is that one container terminal is pretty much the same as another, so it scarcely makes any difference whether you're in Felixstowe, Salalah, Singapore, or Jacksonville.

Tankers aren't any better. Nobody wants a tanker terminal in their backyard, so they're remote from downtown areas. More often than not they consist of no more than a chiksan in the middle of nowhere. Many are situated in offshore terminals, some of which are so remote that Immigration doesn't even bother clearing the ships' crews. I have personally experienced both those types.


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## taxi-man

Gentlemen, on a lighter note, in Holyhead the rumour is, that Pim was talking about the women ! ! ! !


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## Charlie Stitt

If there was to be another Falklands war, would the foreign crews be happy to go there on a British ship, like British crews did on the Europic Ferry etc? I think it absurd, ferries operating between two british ports, like Larne/Cairnryan, Larne/Fleetwood etc etc be foreign crewed, the local lads who once worked these ships had no choice, paid off and replaced with foreigners. (MAD)


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## Ray Mac

gordy said:


> In my paper it was reported that the Philipino crew were to be paid £2.80/hr.
> Anybody else heard this?


A little less and not just Filipino crews(MAD)


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## Thats another Story

British merchant seamen. it shows you not only had a discharge number but you were just a number loyalty meant nothing whatever rank you were? all down to greed by the company.


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## J.Dowd

Satanic Mechanic said:


> Its not a damning comment at all - it is just simply stating the fact that 'no one wants to go to sea anymore'. Its not just the UK its everywhere in the world, the shortage of people is amazing.
> 
> Lets be honest why would you want to go to sea now. Long hours in horrible conditions, few ports, no shore leave, few people on board, paperwork that is verging on mountainous, venomous legislation etc etc. Fact is, the life at sea today is completely pants. Its nothing to do with hard work its the fact that it is a totally carp way of life now. I know a lot of you are retired now or have been away for a while but you have to believe me when I say that life on board a standard merchant ship now can make prison look like a pleasant option, no social life, no bar/movies/social nights. Its not like world travel is an enticement - I can get to Oz and back for a reasonable price nowadays.
> 
> The age of the British seaman is well and truly over and has been for along time. Let the Filipino's have their day, they are great workers, highly skilled and for the moment willing to put up with the conditions(though believe me -that is changing)


I think this is a worhwhile post and sits well alongside my previous on the Red Ensign.


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## muldonaich

JOHN PRUDEN said:


> British merchant seamen. it shows you not only had a discharge number but you were just a number loyalty meant nothing whatever rank you were? all down to greed by the company.


could not agree with you more john


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## J.Dowd

JOHN PRUDEN said:


> British merchant seamen. it shows you not only had a discharge number but you were just a number loyalty meant nothing whatever rank you were? all down to* greed* by the company.


Survival is the word.


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## oldman 80

Why would any informed young person want to go to sea in this day and age ?
The situation is tragic to say the least.
When I was at sea in the UK fleets - the young people involved at sea could only be described without any doubt, and virtually without exception, the cream of the nation.
They were badly let down - unforgiveably so.
Thanks Margaret T.


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## MARINEJOCKY

Blame Maggie as usual, nothing to do with the unions and their high wage demands. 

Here we go again, same old nonsense


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## trotterdotpom

Why not blame her? She started the rot.

John T


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## Satanic Mechanic

British Officers - plenty jobs. Crew - forget it

and as much as I would hand Maggie T to satan personally, this time it was completely self inflicted, they priced themselves out of the market. 

Filipinos remain my favourite crew by a very very long way. They dont get paid peanuts and you dont get monkeys


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## Shipbuilder

I remember in the mid 70s, the B & C sea staff took a voluntary pay cut in order to ensure that the company would go on. In less than a year, they began selling the ships off!

I certainly would not want to go to sea if I was leaving school today. Don't even like the look of the present generation "ships!"

For those clever enough to qualify with the modern day degrees and diplomas, especially in electronics, why go to sea anyway in 2012?

Bob


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## Satanic Mechanic

well my young cousin just started his cadetship - with cruise ships - for a young lad I can think of few better places(Thumb)

I suppose though that there is a bit of unfair comparison that goes on, you lot could compare to my day and shake your heads , I can look at today and shake my head, but the truth is that it is their day and if they can still get a kick out of it then all power to them. But the attractions for me are no more and in time this generation will hand over to the next shaking their heads at what has become of the job - plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose


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## Barrie Youde

Whatever might be the reasons for the decline in British shipping, they were apparent to many people for many years before Maggie came to power.

I have a vivid recollection of being warned as a schoolboy in the 1950s that the whole future of shipping was in the melting-pot .The writing was on the wall, even then, to those who were willing to read it.


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## Shipbuilder

I agree fully with the above. I was very happy to leave 20 years ago and let the new generation make what they would of it.
But interest even in the recent history of the MN is waning fast. Looking in a Waterstones bookshop last week, there was absolutely nothing about ships in the transport section, not even the almost obligatory Titanic. I spoke to the manageress and she said they were looking to expand the section, but wanted something "local" I found it difficult to get the fact across that ships tended not to be "local!" They moved about once they had been built! 
Bob


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## Barrie Youde

An obvious warning sign in about 1955/56 was the development of the jet aeroplane engine and the building of the Comet jet airliner.

Next, in 1957 when I was 14 and wanted to go to HMS Conway my father (a former Conway boy) said, "No. The days of Conway are numbered. You will be far better placed by continuing with a general education."

I went to sea in 1959 and witnessed the numerous strikes of the 1960s; and the development of containerisation and decline of the deep-sea passenger trade at the same time. About 1967 (I think) the still-huge Blue Funnel Line issued its five-year warning letter to all staff. The rest is history. All long, long before Maggie entered Number 10.


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## Hugh Ferguson

Satanic Mechanic said:


> Its not a damning comment at all - it is just simply stating the fact that 'no one wants to go to sea anymore'. Its not just the UK its everywhere in the world, the shortage of people is amazing.
> 
> Lets be honest why would you want to go to sea now. Long hours in horrible conditions, few ports, no shore leave, few people on board, paperwork that is verging on mountainous, venomous legislation etc etc. Fact is, the life at sea today is completely pants. Its nothing to do with hard work its the fact that it is a totally carp way of life now. I know a lot of you are retired now or have been away for a while but you have to believe me when I say that life on board a standard merchant ship now can make prison look like a pleasant option, no social life, no bar/movies/social nights. Its not like world travel is an enticement - I can get to Oz and back for a reasonable price nowadays.
> 
> The age of the British seaman is well and truly over and has been for along time. Let the Filipino's have their day, they are great workers, highly skilled and for the moment willing to put up with the conditions(though believe me -that is changing)


 Precisely!


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## Barrie Youde

#29

Amen to that!


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## oldman 80

MARINEJOCKY said:


> Blame Maggie as usual, nothing to do with the unions and their high wage demands.
> 
> Here we go again, same old nonsense


Well you are absolutely correct MJ - indeed it had nothing at all to do with unions and their high wage demands, - as you put it. That statement of yours, is absolutely correct, as indeed I suspect you well know. In your seafaring days you must surely have been a member of the MNAOA and as such would be fully aware they never ever made unreasonable demands for wage / salary increases, nor did they ever call their members out in industrial dispute (strike).
That more than anything is likely the reason the Red Ensign was targeted by Maggie and her chronies.
Furthermore it is pretty obvious you did not see FOC service of any significance in the aftermath of Red Ensign demise. Had you done so then you would be fully aware that Foreign Nationals were in fact in many many cases paid much more than their UK counterparts, - much more. There were no cost savings there - so the wage argument goes right out the window - so to speak.
Of course there were cost savings though, enormous cost savings in fact, but they did not come from the wages scenario as many would have us believe. That is a false claim, misleading and delusional in the extreme.
The cost savings came about through foreign nationals being quite happy to accept deplorable domestic (on Board) , environmental, operational and maintenance standards and conditions -* that is where the cost savings were made* - nothing to do with wages at all.
The UK officers would be content to accept the one bucket of fresh water per man per day (For all purposes) for a reasonable period of time ( when necessary), but *they would not do so indefinately*. Precisely the same thing goes for sanitation, for medical facilities, for maintenance, for victualing, and indeed for equipment standards on board.
You are clearly a very ill informed individual.


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## buicketo

It all went down hill when British Companies flagged out, HSE raised it head. and the paperwork mounted. Filling in JSA's took half hour, permit to work another half hour and 10 mins to do the job! In the 50 odd years I never had an accident(Black nails do not count), so I must have been doing something right.


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## oldman 80

buicketo said:


> It all went down hill when British Companies flagged out, HSE raised it head. and the paperwork mounted. Filling in JSA's took half hour, permit to work another half hour and 10 mins to do the job! In the 50 odd years I never had an accident(Black nails do not count), so I must have been doing something right.


How right you are .
Your comments say it all - with incredible accuracy and much relevance, I believe.
I think we could all benefit from a fuller description of HSE and JSA, abbreviations which you may be completely familiar with, but many will not be. That however, is another highly significant factor, - such abbreviations impress some no doubt, particularly politicians I suspect - but they certainly don't impress me - NOR INDEED YOU, I suspect.
More Smoke, More Mirrors !!!!!!
(Read)


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## garry Norton

I found I could earn as much money picking tomatoes part time as sailing on the British Coast as a Mate


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## Donald McGhee

I guess that all aspects of life as we knew it changed, both ashore and afloat. The advent of containerisation dispensed with the need for a highly labour intensive workforce and the equipment gave birth to fewer jobs achieving larger, faster and more efficient cargo handling at all stages.
The demise of the British seaman accompanied the demise of the ships we all knew and loved, same as steam displaced sail. Just progress, like it or hate it. 
No one politician or Prime minister can shoulder all the blame; it was inevitable, as was the loss of many shore side jobs with the advent of technology and machinery that now do the work of many people.
Foreign crews working for less money and poorer conditions was a natural conclusion, no matter what anyone says and for young people to go to sea now is not an attractive proposition,especially if turnarounds are so fast and many of the ports we once knew look just the same as every other port, especially if you're on a tanker or box boat (are there any other types now?)


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## Ray Mac

Looks like it's the turn of the offshore workers now, on ships rigs and so forth in North Sea operations. East European and Filipino labour seems to be the flavor of the day.

Ray


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## alan ward

garry Norton said:


> I found I could earn as much money picking tomatoes part time as sailing on the British Coast as a Mate



or in my case selling ale and sleeping in my own bed at night.


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## louie the fly

I would not class a ferry as going to sea. I was forced to spend the last of sea going days on ferries as they were one of the last options for British seamen. Same boring jobs day after day, all laughs gone, the way of life we used to lead, of helping each other and never letting a shipmate down lost in time. Messroom chat of Valpo or Santos, Gleasons or Monty's replaced with mortgages and cars.
It was a floating shore job, the only skill required was as a parking attendant.


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## stein

Not only the Red Ensign was targeted by Maggie, she must have bribed some foreigners to make them undercut the Norwegian fleet as well. She probably inherited great sums from her shopkeeper family and spent it all on destroying the West's old merchant fleets. And our shipbuilding industry, and our once busy ports! Or else we could have competed on the world market still; with sailor’s wages and working conditions that the youth today would go to sea for. Here’s proof: http://www.marisec.org/shippingfacts/worldtrade/top-20-largest-shipping-flags.php And: http://www.marisec.org/shippingfacts/worldtrade/world-seafarers.php


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## Ray Mac

stein said:


> Not only the Red Ensign was targeted by Maggie, she must have bribed some foreigners to make them undercut the Norwegian fleet as well. She probably inherited great sums from her shopkeeper family and spent it all on destroying the West's old merchant fleets. And our shipbuilding industry, and our once busy ports! Or else we could have competed on the world market still; with sailor’s wages and working conditions that the youth today would go to sea for. Here’s proof: http://www.marisec.org/shippingfacts/worldtrade/top-20-largest-shipping-flags.php And: http://www.marisec.org/shippingfacts/worldtrade/world-seafarers.php[/url]


Sad indeed. Ray.


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## Ian J. Huckin

trotterdotpom said:


> Why not blame her? She started the rot.
> 
> John T


Exactly......


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## Ian J. Huckin

Guys, read this "More Days More Dollars" by Richard Woodman.

on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-History-o...pt=AU_Non_Fiction_Books_2&hash=item2a1edc488a

Excellent read and a great insight to the politics of that era...which was just a continuation of the previous politics...


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## oldman 80

Ian J. Huckin said:


> Exactly......


*Precisely*, so she did.
Aye and what someone else said is true also, I believe - she targeted Norwegians.
Between the red ensign and the Norskies - she targeted and destroyed the finest mariners of them all - that's a fact, in my view. 
*Do not forget either:-*
_The King sits in Dunfermline Town,
Drinking the blood red wine,
Oh where can I get a skeely skipper,
to sail this good ship O mine.
To Norway, To Norway, to Norway o'er the foam, etc. etc. etc _- it's written in history, so it is !!!
(Thumb)


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## NoR

Satanic Mechanic said:


> well my young cousin just started his cadetship - with cruise ships - for a young lad I can think of few better places(Thumb)


Imagine serving your apprenticeship on cruise ships and then having to take a job on a bulk carrier. Talk about culture shock.


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## oldman 80

NoR said:


> Imagine serving your apprenticeship on cruise ships and then having to take a job on a bulk carrier. Talk about culture shock.


Good point !!
Culture shock ? Yes probably, maybe even a pleasant one, in some cases.
(@)


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## Graham the pipe

Have just read, for the first time, all posts in this thread. Leaving politics, politicians, unions, race, greed, creed, waist size, number of tattoos and number of units of alcohol consumed daily, aside, my summary and assessment would be:

1) The world in general has changed beyond all recognition in the last half century.

2) Progress is a fact of life and will always cause upheaval, unrest and - sadly - sometimes distress and unemployment to entire trades and communities.

The majority of the people regularly visiting this site are, like myself, either retired seafarers or currently at sea. Imagine, in '63, having the technology we now have in '13? Should we ditch GPS for the joy of standing on a heaving deck, sextant in hand, waiting for a break in the cloud cover to 'grab' a swift fix?

Think I'd better start 'winding down' before I get on my high horse!

Work hard, play hard and don't think the world owes you a living.

Yes, the jet airliners killed the liner age. Yes, containerisation killed the dry cargo ship age but in the case of the latter a dramatic change was inevitable. 

The eldest of my four grandchildren has just got his Masters - no, not our kind, the degree. His upbringing was my daughter echoing her upbringing so, coming back to the theme of this thread, move with the times even if not all changes are, in your opinion, 'for the better'. Dependant on the 'reaction' to my few words, I may well continue on this subject as I have not - as yet - given actual examples of my thesis. 

A VERY Happy, Healthy and Prosperous MMX1V to all ! May Days excepted!


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## Barrie Youde

#46

All of which makes eminent good sense.

The incongruity is that we remain an island nation, dependent upon shipping for survival. Overcrowded, to boot; and increasingly so.

Whither sense now? Economic or otherwise?


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## Graham the pipe

Barrie Youde said:


> #46
> 
> All of which makes eminent good sense.
> 
> The incongruity is that we remain an island nation, dependent upon shipping for survival. Overcrowded, to boot; and increasingly so.
> 
> Whither sense now? Economic or otherwise?


Hope it made at least some sense. Yes we are, still, an island nation with an illustrious, maritime past but no longer similar for the future.

Sadly the world of present day business is totally profit orientated without any consideration for the human element and input. Yes, to survive any business has to make a profit but if the personnel's interests and responsibilities are not structured into the day to day working of the company, union 'involvement' is inevitable.

Back to the demise of our MN. Had health and safety and many other matters, now totally 'accepted' as the norm, existed in my sea days the demise could not be blamed, totally, on passenger jets and containers.


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## Dickyboy

If I was 16 today, I wouldn't dream of going to sea. There seems to be very little to attract people these days, unless you are very very poor, willing to accept poor working conditions and lousy pay.

Also, I wonder how many on this site spent their whole working life at sea, without being promoted out of a sea going job? Not too many I guess.

I know quite a few, with all sorts of tickets, who came ashore more recently to find that their tickets are worthless shore side. To find themselves in the job market with no qualifications. I guess that if one can't make a lifetimes career at sea, then it's not worth starting in the first place.

When anyone stepped ashore after their last trip (Me included) I guess they might have thought the jobs no longer worthwhile. That in my case was back in the 70s and I was 30.


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## LouisB

stein said:


> Not only the Red Ensign was targeted by Maggie, she must have bribed some foreigners to make them undercut the Norwegian fleet as well. She probably inherited great sums from her shopkeeper family and spent it all on destroying the West's old merchant fleets. And our shipbuilding industry, and our once busy ports! Or else we could have competed on the world market still; with sailor’s wages and working conditions that the youth today would go to sea for. Here’s proof: http://www.marisec.org/shippingfacts/worldtrade/top-20-largest-shipping-flags.php And: http://www.marisec.org/shippingfacts/worldtrade/world-seafarers.php


My own simplistic answer is, why support a British fleet if others can do the same job a lot cheaper? An added bonus would be far less union interference that amongst other things generally added to more cost in am industry that was already working with very reduced margins.
Regarding conditions, both safety and health, in my thirty odd years on ships, some of my worst experiences have been on UK vessels and some of my better experiences on foreign owned and flagged ships. When I eventually came ashore, and with comparatively few, if any, qualifications, I was able to be employed almost immediately and with a reasonable salary. This, incidentally by an American company in the medical devices industry - a progressive company that believed in experience rather than academic brilliance.

LouisB. (Scribe)


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## Keith Adkins

Maggie came to power in 79 I believe the writing was on the wall long before that!


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## Graham the pipe

Keith Adkins said:


> Maggie came to power in 79 I believe the writing was on the wall long before that!


Yes, Keith, it was. The point I am endeavouring to 'put across' is that the difference between now and my sea days is that having a scapegoat to 'take the blame', passing the buck, limiting one's liabilities before taking any financial gamble etc etc is present day life. Gone are the days of an individual making a decision him or her self. Who is the Master of a vessel going to 'turn to'? Does the officer of the watch call for a 'second opinion' before taking emergency action to avert a collision on his 'danger side'. Let's just say I'm glad I was at sea when I was and am glad, now, that I'm getting old!

To conclude, no it wasn't Maggie's fault and - in my opinion - she had far more 'sphericals' than the majority of her compatriots AND made decisions then stuck with them. That way she had no one to be that scapegoat if, which she did in some instances, make wrong ones.


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## PAULD

Isn't there some saying about, why do men go to sea when they can go to gaol


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## janmike

Janmike
I thought all British seamen were made redundant just about twenty years ago.
I know that was when I was pushed onto the beach


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