# Port or Starboard



## Michael Taylor (Aug 31, 2008)

Once again my time at the New Bedford Whaling Museum has brought up an interesting point.
The Whaling Masters sleeping quarters are on the starboard side (aft). It seems the Captains Quarters on the vessels I sailed on to be the same with the C/E on the port side. Question is.....why starboard?


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## Cutsplice (May 23, 2008)

Most likely it's because the Master can look out of his windows and view vessels the may require his own vessel to give way. I have never sailed on a vessel where the Masters quarters was not on the starboard side.


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

My first trip was on the SILVERCRAG. The only ship I sailed on where the engineers were on the starboard side after which we were all on the portside same as the smoke room/bar (BSL)(Pint)


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## saudisid (Mar 17, 2014)

Michael Taylor said:


> Once again my time at the New Bedford Whaling Museum has brought up an interesting point.
> The Whaling Masters sleeping quarters are on the starboard side (aft). It seems the Captains Quarters on the vessels I sailed on to be the same with the C/E on the port side. Question is.....why starboard?


Mike
If you remember all the Ellerman Ships up to the Liverpool class of the 70s the Old Man had his own deck.

Alan


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

On which side did he dress?


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## saudisid (Mar 17, 2014)

Engine Serang said:


> On which side did he dress?


If it was " Bunty " Bellhouse your guess is as good as mine


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## Michael Taylor (Aug 31, 2008)

saudisid said:


> If it was " Bunty " Bellhouse your guess is as good as mine


Bunty or Nellie his wife seemingly (he was married!) was Captain of an East African mens cricket team. And yes they did have their own deck but not sure all.


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

Cutsplice said:


> Most likely it's because the Master can look out of his windows and view vessels the may require his own vessel to give way. I have never sailed on a vessel where the Masters quarters was not on the starboard side.


MV Cape York and SS Cape Sable (Lyles) Masters accommodation on the port side. Just about everything else I sailed on it was on the Stbd Side side.


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

The word "starboard" I understand comes from viking "styrbord", that is steering-board, or rudder. And the viking longships all har their steering boards on the starboard side. Now why was that???


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## Michael Taylor (Aug 31, 2008)

stein said:


> The word "starboard" I understand comes from viking "styrbord", that is steering-board, or rudder. And the viking longships all har their steering boards on the starboard side. Now why was that???


Most steering oars tend to be on the starboard side... Gondolas are a classic example. However in the American whaling boat they are always on the port side (am not to sure if that is the same on an 1800's European whale boat).
On a whale ship the word larboard would have been used...I believe from the old English for loading and the side used so as not to damage the steering device. I suppose Port came about first to avoid confusion and as a word for the side where you loaded...that is in port.


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

#9 
For ease of use of the right arm whilst steering - and also keeping a look-out to starboard at the same time? - Though God knows when any Colregs were first adopted? It seems likely that Colregs would have evolved from custom and practice.


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Starboard comes to us, as said, from stēorbord, in the case of English. 
the 'bord' part of the word means side, so it was the side of the ship from which it was steered using a steering oar. That side was used because the majority of men are right handed. If you know of a left handed Viking then maybe he steered from the other side.... 

Larboard comes to us from lade-bord meaning the bord or side from which a vessel was loaded, or laden. It made sense to bring that side to shore because the steering oar was hanging in the water on the other side. 

Port side was adopted to avoid confusion of the similar sounding words but carries the same meaning of the side at which one loads the ship, at a port. 
(The root might be the Latin portus - a harbour, or porta - a gate or door.) 

Etymologically it would be incorrect to say 'starboard side' because board and side mean the same thing in that case. But 'port side' is correct.


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

Yes, most people are right-handed, and so strongest on that side, that might be the explanation. 

I might have mentioned it last time this theme was up, but while us Norwegian deckies generally kept to the starboard side whenever there was a choice, to take the wheel we entered the bridge on the port side - starboard being reserved for the "striped gang." A second mate took advantage of this to hide his alcoholism, when relieved at the end of his watch he took a flashlight out on the port side to light up the thermometer and read the temperature, and then left on the port side. Now, why was the thermometer on the port side? (Just joking - that might not have been standard.)


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

Which side of the bridge to use?

The lee side, for God's sake! And shut the weather door of the wheelhouse! Let's at least try to keep this place civilised!

I count myself luky that my entire career was spent with the fully enclosed wheelhouse a rarity, if it existed at all - and when called upon to use a fully-enclosed wheelhouse I found it disorientating on occasions, when that was the last thing I wanted. To be able to get out onto an open bridge-wing gave a far better perspective of what was happening aboard any ship. And, yes, sometimes it was necessary to have the weather door open. But not too often.

Today, with the fully enclosed wheelhouse the norm, I doubt that I could hack it.


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

The origin of larboard is easy enought to understand.

I wonder what is the origin of bakbord (or babords), which means the same thing as larboard or port in general European nautical-speak?


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

Regarding “starboard” we have the German “steuerbord”, that is steering plank, exactly as in Norwegian. Someone writing for Wikipedia points out that not only the Vikings, but the Romans as well had their steering plank on the starboard side. Strange if the English should differ as to what was important in this connection. As for the etymological origin of “babord”, some Norwegian sources claim it once was “bakbord”, that is “behind the steering side board”, others claim it is a word borrowed by the Norwegians from the Dutch. (I do not like the "behind" explanation - behind is behind, not "on the left side.")
I found some French text that looked serious. I had it translated by Google Translate, but append the original text. (Dutch I do not read,or else I would have searched for something in that language.)

ÉTYMOL. AND HIST. - 1. 1484 Mar. "left side of a vessel, speaking of the stern" (Garcie, Grant Rout, f 61 ds Gdf Compl .: The sandbar will leave you babort), isolated graph; 1548 port with adverbial value (Rabelais, The Fourth Book, ed R. Marichal, chapter XXII, page 117); bottom-board shape in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. (1643-1778 ds Jal1), low-board and port (Trev 1721-71), port side dep. Ac. 1762 2. 1835 fig. and fam. (Ac .: [...] Fire starboard and port, Make use of all its means, all its resources). Pr. to the mnerl. bakboord, of the same meaning (Saggau 1905, 57, Valkh, 50), cf. m.b.all. backbord, all. mod. Backbord, ags. boecbord, a.nord. bakbordi. The mnerl. is composed of mnerl. bac, bak "back" (all mod Back) and boord "edge", v. also on board (De Vries, Verdam). At the time of mr. néerl. the pilot was indeed steering with a scull attached to the right side of the boat and thus turned his back to the left side (Diez5). Altered shape at the bottom edge, stern (then port), by attraction of the adj. bottom *, the crew standing on the port side, while the starboard was reserved for officers (Will.). The etymon a.nord. bakbordi (De Gorog, p.4), can not agree given the relatively late entry of the word en fr. The etymon b. all. backbord (Behrens D. 1923, p.69, REW3) is less satisfactory from the historical point of view, the maritime relations fr. being much more active with the Netherlands than with Northern Germany.

ÉTYMOL. ET HIST. − 1. 1484 mar. « côté gauche d'un bâtiment, en parlant de la poupe » (Garcie, Grant Rout., f. 61 ds Gdf. Compl. : Le banc de sable te demourra de babort), graphie isolée; 1548 babord avec valeur adverbiale (Rabelais, Le Quart Livre, éd. R. Marichal, chap. XXII, p. 117); forme bas-bord aux xviieet xviiies. (1643-1778 ds Jal1), bas-bord et babord (Trév. 1721-71), bâbord dep. Ac. 1762; 2. 1835 fig. et fam. (Ac. : [...] Faire feu de tribord et de bâbord, Faire usage de tous ses moyens, de toutes ses ressources). Empr. au m.néerl. bakboord, de même sens (Saggau 1905, p. 57; Valkh., p. 50), cf. m.b.all. backbord, all. mod. Backbord, ags. boecbord, a.nord. bakbordi. Le m.néerl. est composé du m.néerl. bac, bak « dos » (all. mod. Back) et boord « bord », v. aussi bord (De Vries; Verdam). À l'époque du m. néerl. le pilote gouvernait en effet avec une godille fixée au côté droit du bateau et tournait donc le dos au côté gauche (Diez5). Forme altérée en bas bord, basbord (puis bâbord), par attraction de l'adj. bas*, l'équipage se tenant à bâbord, tandis que le tribord était réservé aux officiers (Will.). L'étymon a.nord. bakbordi (De Gorog, p. 4), ne peut convenir étant donné l'entrée relativement tardive du mot en fr. L'étymon b. all. backbord (Behrens D. 1923, p. 69; REW3) est moins satisfaisant du point de vue hist., les relations maritimes fr. étant beaucoup plus actives avec les Pays-Bas qu'avec l'Allemagne du Nord.


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Barrie Youde said:


> The origin of larboard is easy enought to understand.
> 
> I wonder what is the origin of bakbord (or babords), which means the same thing as larboard or port in general European nautical-speak?


I would need to do more research - Stein has given me a direction - but an off the cuff suggestion;
The side on which one embarks, perhaps. 
Embark being to enter a ship, or barque.


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

#16 

Many thanks, Stein.

The side to which the styrman has his back turned (although logical) sounds altogether too simple and even a bit far fetched.

I remember hearing Dutchmen aboard coasters saying "on der bak" (when speaking amongst themselves) which I understood to mean "on the maindeck" - although I might well have misunderstood it.

Does any body know what "bak" means in Dutch?


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## MichaelSut (Oct 31, 2008)

My Dutch dictionary defines "bak" as a bin (storage), cistern, tank, tray, trough, dish, bowl, cup (of coffee), also a joke. Take your pick!

Mike


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

"Bakk" is Norwegian for forecastle (not as abode of the crew, but the raised forepart with the anchor gear etc.) The German word is "back", and I strongly suspect the Dutch word for this part of the ship is something similar.


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

#19 

Many thanks, Mike. It seems unlikely that any of those apply.

#20 
Many thanks, Stein. The plot thickens. Could babord or bakbord, after all, mean the side on which the crew lives - as opposed to the side from which the ship is steered? Clearly it all fits - yet it all seems too simple.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Port and starboard are "Backbord and Steuerbord" in German but "Back" is also the focsle.

John T

PS Whoops, I just saw that Stein has already said that.


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## Michael Taylor (Aug 31, 2008)

Another interesting whale ship fact is the naming of boats sitting on their cranes in the davits. Stern boat at starboard aft (used by the Captain) Larboard (port aft used by the Mate) Waist (port midships and for Second Mate) and Port Boat (they used port and for the Third Mate) the remaining boat on a 5 boat Barque was just the Starboard Boat. Hope this does not further muddy the waters.


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

Barrie Youde said:


> #19
> 
> Many thanks, Mike. It seems unlikely that any of those apply.
> 
> ...


It would seem I did not get that across, that the British double meaning of "forecastle", as either the "castle" forward or the crew's quarters (be that below deck forward or in a deck-house aft of the foremast), is not repeated in other languages. In Scandinavia we have "ruff" (German "roof"), for a crew's deckhouse and "banjer" for the crew's quarters if below the forecastle deck. The "bakk" is simply the elevated forward end of the ship. (The raised quarterdeck was once "skanse," (then also meaning the naval officer's quarters) but is now the "poop" as in the English language.) But where this word, and the word babord, originated, and what they originally meant, I would still like to know.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I heard that the term "Poop deck" came from the Dutch "poep deck" - the place where they did number twos back in the olden days ("poep" meaning "to sh1t").
Interestingly, they also wiped themselves on a length of rope that was dangling in the sea - "poep on a rope"?

John T


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## Michael Taylor (Aug 31, 2008)

trotterdotpom said:


> I heard that the term "Poop deck" came from the Dutch "poep deck" - the place where they did number twos back in the olden days ("poep" meaning "to sh1t").
> Interestingly, they also wiped themselves on a length of rope that was dangling in the sea - "poep on a rope"?
> 
> John T


The normal place for the crew toilet was on the Jib frd stay up by the carved figure head.....hence the American expression...."going to the head".


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

#26 . Think I've heard that before too, Michael, but my version came from the replicas of the Dutch ships "Batavia" and "Duyfken".

John T


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

My recollection of the thunderbox on most Hong Kong sampans was that it hung off the transom, on the port quarter.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Barrie Youde said:


> My recollection of the thunderbox on most Hong Kong sampans was that it hung off the transom, on the port quarter.


Hence "portaloo"?

John T


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

Mebbe!


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

There is a little confusion here; 
Poop, of a ship and poop, defecation come from different root words. 

Poop, of a ship is directly from the Latin word puppis which can mean either the ship as whole or the stern of the ship from where it is conned. 

Poop, as a word for defecation has a longer route. Originally the same as pipe, as a musical instrument, it came to mean the sound made by a single note of the pipe, then by association it came to be a euphemism for breaking wind and subsequently for defecation. 


Regarding the matter of 'larboard' - The 19th century marine lexicographer, Admiral Smyth gives his take: 



> LARBOARD. The left side of the ship when the spectator's face is towards the bow. The Italians derive starboard from _questa borda_, 'this side' and larboard from _quella borda_, 'that side' abreviated into _sta borda_ and _la borda_. Their resemblance caused so many mistakes theat, by order of the Admiralty, larboard is now thrown overboard, and _port_ substituted. "Port the helm" is even mentioned in Arthur Pit's voyage in 1580


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

trotterdotpom said:


> I heard that the term "Poop deck" came from the Dutch "poep deck" - the place where they did number twos back in the olden days ("poep" meaning "to sh1t").
> Interestingly, they also wiped themselves on a length of rope that was dangling in the sea - "poep on a rope"?
> 
> John T


And I thought it was the ships cat.(Jester)


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

Australia's replica of Cook's ship Endeavour has the toilet seats built outboard of the forecastle bulwarks providing a clean drop unless you badly time the ships roll in a big sea you get a bidet effect as well.

Bob


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

Early settlers in Auckland built a broad beamed shallow draft centre board style sailing craft specifically for sailing in shallow water and tidal estuaries to catch Mullet for the markets. They carried a huge mainsail to enable them to make the best possible speed back to port to ensure fresh produce and the best price.
The boats were exciting to sail and after the fishing was taken over by powered trawlers the designs continued as a racing class, especially the 22 foot long "L" class sponsored by the Ponsonby Cruising club. 
This is or was known as a hard sailing , hard drinking , very sociable group of yachtsmen and some of the craft were equipped with heads facilities on a fabricated canterlever off the boats broad transom. This structure carried a very competively adorned ,highly polished ,domestic style wooden toilet seat complete with lid to allow the crew member to sit in comfort with a steadying hand on a backstay and feet braced on the coaming while they went about their business in any conditions .
Many such a sight has sailed past spoiling my breakfast.

Bob


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