# Radio Time



## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

I have three radio-controlled clocks in different rooms in my house. Two relatively new and one from many years back. All three have lost QSO with the radio signal. Three faulty is a bit of a coincidence I think, so does anyone know if anything has happened to the timing signal ? Is GBR still going, or has it defaulted to Anthorn ??

I live in deepest furthermost East Lincolnshire.

David
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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

I think GBR is QRT...

???


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## G4UMW (May 30, 2007)

GBR is indeed QRT, the MSF time signal has been transmitted from Anthorn, ***bria since 1st April 2007. There are no planned outages today, according to the NPL website but there's always the possibility of an unscheduled break in transmission.

http://www.npl.co.uk/science-technology/time-frequency/products-and-services/time/msf-outages


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## djmorton (Apr 10, 2006)

david.hopcroft said:


> I have three radio-controlled clocks in different rooms in my house. Two relatively new and one from many years back. All three have lost QSO with the radio signal. Three faulty is a bit of a coincidence I think, so does anyone know if anything has happened to the timing signal ? Is GBR still going, or has it defaulted to Anthorn ??
> 
> I live in deepest furthermost East Lincolnshire.
> 
> ...


Hi David,
I also have 3 radio-controlled clocks, 1 Lexor, 2 Ascot. Just checked with a reset on the small (bedside) Ascot and locked on to signal and reset ok. I think the signal used is German.
Have noticed an occasional loss of signal due to w/x, and/or, pressure. I thought the UK time signal was still broadcasting though
Troppo reckons GBR is QRT. Is there a station at Bracknell?. Worth checking.
Best of luck,
Denis


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## Chris Isaac (Jul 29, 2006)

If all else fails, ask a policeman!


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## G4UMW (May 30, 2007)

FWIW my radio-controlled clock which also uses the Anthorn transmission (I had to check!) doesn't appear to be getting a signal either.


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## sparks69 (Dec 18, 2005)

Here in Lincolnshire my three radio clocks only occasionally show that they are receiving the signal. I did take one up into the highlands of Lincolnshire and it wasn't any better. Gone are the days of GBR pumping out a VLF signal you could hear with a rotten potato, a long piece of wire and a pair of hair tangling SG Brown two ton headphones.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Here in the high Alps of Essex (a little over 25m ASL) my two radio clocks appear to be keeping immaculate time.

Those old-fashioned radio signals appear to recognise which parts of the country count. (Jester)


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## jimg0nxx (Sep 1, 2005)

No signal on the coast of Darkest North Yorkshire. Reckon Ron in Essex must be getting a Continental signal.


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## Hank (Jun 28, 2007)

The time on my computer has been over an hour out for a couple of days now, so I've just reset it manually. Whether this was caused by the same problem as your radio clocks I have no idea, but I do find it curious. I also have one radio clock and that's keeping the right time here in North Wales, but obviously it's signal is nothing to do with the computer one.
Cheers, John


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

Thanks everyone. Looks like it is down for some reason. I had noticed the one I have in front of me at my PC was intermittent recently, but put that down to not receiving when my computer was running. Obviously not. 

Coast Station engineers were based at Rugby. None were able to drive fancy new cars with a host of electronics when GBR was running !! This is progress I suppose. 

David
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## J. Davies (Dec 29, 2010)

All ... I have built a few nixie tube clocks, beautiful things, using old Russian tubes. I get the time from the mains frequency 50 Hz here in Singapore. The clocks gain and lose an equal number of seconds per day, around 30 seconds or so. One has been running three years now and the time is still correct to 10 seconds compared with GPS time. Not bad at all. 
These same clocks are useless in Indonesia and Malaysia where the national grids are erratic to say the least...


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I rarely look at clocks, I get time signals from my wife who has punctuality psychosis and is a control freak.

Does the BBC still have time pips before the news? ABC in Australia stopped that ages ago - not sure how much they saved by doing that but it gives me the pip.

Johnb T


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

trotterdotpom said:


> Does the BBC still have time pips before the news? ABC in Australia stopped that ages ago - not sure how much they saved by doing that but it gives me the pip.
> 
> Johnb T


Yes John, the pips are still there (interspersed at some hours with the chimes of Big Ben) but, with the introduction of DAB and its inherent receiver processing delays, they can no longer be used for setting chronometers since they can be a second or two out. Worse still, the delay is variable from one receiver design to another so you need to know what you are listening _on_, as well as what you are listening _to_, before you can use the time signal.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Thanks, Ron. Sounds like the pips are only for sentimental purposes or to wake the newsreader up. Maybe that's why they stopped them Downunder - not sure what DAB is but it would be BAD upside down.

John T


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

(MSF bulletin off air 24th to 27th earliest - fault) Anthorn started routine maintenance and was off every working weekday during last month (may have been March). I was only drawn to finding their website because I had been regulating/monitoring my electrically reset gravity arm escapement clocks against my Oregon Scientific job. I thought I had done something drastically wrong (again!) until I noted the acquired signal indicator was missing.

Without the wireless signal mine is a hopeless timekeeper.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Has anyone got a rx that covers 60 kHz?


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Troppo said:


> Has anyone got a rx that covers 60 kHz?


Probably everyone in the USA.

John T


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

x10 too many...

Har-de-har....


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Troppo said:


> x10 too many...
> 
> Har-de-har....


Whoops, you got me ... that hertz.

John T


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

This is on the NPL website ref the MSF signal on 60khz

_MSF signal off-air

Please note that the MSF signal has had to be taken off-air from Saturday evening, 24 May, until late Tuesday, 27 May, at the earliest, due to a technical fault.

Further updates will be posted here when received.
_

My Lowe HF-235 receiver can receive 60khz. It is very quiet at the moment 27/1555 bst. I don't 'do' metres - only kHz, and yes John, BAD sounds about right !!

David
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## holland25 (Nov 21, 2007)

Ron Stringer said:


> Yes John, the pips are still there (interspersed at some hours with the chimes of Big Ben) but, with the introduction of DAB and its inherent receiver processing delays, they can no longer be used for setting chronometers since they can be a second or two out. Worse still, the delay is variable from one receiver design to another so you need to know what you are listening _on_, as well as what you are listening _to_, before you can use the time signal.


 I think it may have been further complicated by internet broadcasting . I receive the ABC signal variously by DAB+,via my smart phone app over the internet, a bedside radio which can be either DAB+ or internet and good old AM/FM and they are all out of synch,making any time signals useless.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Stick to WWV on 10/15/20 Mhz. Usually quite readable in UK.


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## spacetracker (Jun 17, 2008)

ABC still broadcast the pips on analogue radio services. Digital radio (or DAB) has a slight delay (just as digital TV had when the analog version was transmitting) so the pips would not be 100% accurate. Similarly, getting the time signal from a BBC World Service relay station like Ascension was not acceptable for a chronometer update.


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## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

Buy yourself a GPS device of some sort. The time they display is very very accurate.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

spacetracker said:


> ABC still broadcast the pips on analogue radio services. Digital radio (or DAB) has a slight delay (just as digital TV had when the analog version was transmitting) so the pips would not be 100% accurate. Similarly, getting the time signal from a BBC World Service relay station like Ascension was not acceptable for a chronometer update.


What ABC station is that on Spacetracker? Here in Queensland I don't recall hearing the pips for quite a few years. Mind you, I mostly only listen to the radio in the car (should do more as there are some good programs on ABC ... better than the telly). Don't tell me the pips are another Canberra politico perk!

Not to worry, when you're retired, what's five minutes here or there?

John T


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

endure said:


> Buy yourself a GPS device of some sort. The time they display is very very accurate.


Satellite time and earth time differ. GPS time has to be corrected. It is, however very repeatable (or at least very well corrected) and so the corrected result is, indeed, very accurate.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I bought an el cheapo GPS and the lady in it sounds like an oriental bar girl. I'm quite fond of her and don't even mind when, on the odd occasion, I end up in the middle of a building site or wondering how I'm going to get across the river that's in front of me. Time stands still and I'm reminded of happi coats and Suntory whisky.

John T


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## jimg0nxx (Sep 1, 2005)

MSF seems to be up and running again. Strength 5 in N. Yorks.


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

Yes, I can hear it too QSA5 in East Lincolnshire. My clock by my PC can't see it yet, but the other have. 

David
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## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

trotterdotpom said:


> I bought an el cheapo GPS and the lady in it sounds like an oriental bar girl.


Mine sounds quite cross if I ignore any of her directions.


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## spacetracker (Jun 17, 2008)

trotterdotpom said:


> What ABC station is that on Spacetracker? Here in Queensland I don't recall hearing the pips for quite a few years. Mind you, I mostly only listen to the radio in the car (should do more as there are some good programs on ABC ... better than the telly). Don't tell me the pips are another Canberra politico perk!
> 
> Not to worry, when you're retired, what's five minutes here or there?
> 
> John T


Hate to say it John, but ABC_666 here in Canberra certainly uses the time signal pips and leaves them out on the digital version. Even hear them through the cricket or other sports broadcast that don't break for a news bulletin. When we get the Sydney 702 service in the evenings the pips are still used on the hour.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Thanks Spacetracker - I'll make a point of checking ABC 612 today.

John T


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

endure said:


> Buy yourself a GPS device of some sort. The time they display is very very accurate.


Can you, comfortably, strap one on your wrist?
It sounds quite interesting. From old habits, I like to know the precise time, at any time. But, as I get older, I also tend to get a bit lost. This device would be ideal for me. Are they available yet?

p.s. I don't know if precise time varies with time. I'm confused myself now!


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

duncs,

I hate to say it but yes they are. For 'some time' one pilotage has been using a wristewatch GPS (I think not for positioning but for speed over ground WRT anchoring).

I don't think it varies with time but certainly with speed and gravity - I'm hoping my quantitative relationship to the latter will make me live longer.


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## sparks69 (Dec 18, 2005)

My 250 year old grandfather clock has just struck 4 (that's 1600 to R/Os) & that is now good enough for me.


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## endure (Apr 16, 2007)

sparks69 said:


> My 250 year old grandfather clock has just struck 4 (that's 1600 to R/Os) & that is now good enough for me.


1500Z surely? (Jester)


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Spacetracker, definitely no pips on ABC 612 today

John T


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

Varley said:


> duncs,
> 
> I hate to say it but yes they are. For 'some time' one pilotage has been using a wristewatch GPS (I think not for positioning but for speed over ground WRT anchoring).
> 
> I don't think it varies with time but certainly with speed and gravity - I'm hoping my quantitative relationship to the latter will make me live longer.


Ach well, I think I'll stay anchored where I am, and stick to my old wris****ch.

Perhaps it would be quantitative easing with some gravity and less speed, which would contribute to your longevity, David.

Duncs


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

endure said:


> 1500Z surely? (Jester)


Not here! BST stops at my gate in favour of proper British time at our meridian.

(Bloody radio controlled clocks, of course, change automatically which can confuse guests).

I did think of taking up Z+0012 (ish) as Greenwich Mann Time but then I thought I heard someone coming to take me away.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

duncs said:


> Ach well, I think I'll stay anchored where I am, and stick to my old wris****ch.
> 
> Perhaps it would be quantitative easing with some gravity and less speed, which would contribute to your longevity, David.
> 
> Duncs


Duncs, I am built for comfort not speed so have no trouble with your expert advice (don't think they have correlated any relativistic effects against comfort). David


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## sparks69 (Dec 18, 2005)

endure said:


> 1500Z surely? (Jester)


I'm retired - I just go with the flow...........


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## Farmer John (Feb 22, 2012)

endure said:


> Buy yourself a GPS device of some sort. The time they display is very very accurate.


I've got one, but I can't find it...


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## expats (Mar 9, 2013)

Farmer John said:


> I've got one, but I can't find it...


Reminds me of the tale about the golfer....
On the first tee he produced a transparent ball with an internal l.e.d....He explained that it was a 'no-lose ball'. If the ball lay still for 30 seconds the l.e.d. would start flashing and, after one minute, it would start beeping....

"Fantastic!", said his partner, "Where can I buy one?"...."I don't know" was the reply, "I found it!"....


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Maybe I was wrong about relativistic effects of comfort. Greenwich Mann Time is, of course, Z Minus 12 (ish, actually Minus 17.92) not +. Observant lot!

(What? oh they're here for me are they?)


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

I have two radio controlled clocks in my little eyrie - one digital and one analogue. They are both quite fussy about where I put them and appear to loose the signal if they are placed on the 'wrong' shelf. 

An aside re Z time - If your mobile phone is set to local time updates, when on board a ship and via a satellite link the default is Z, wherever you are. 
Not so good if you want to use it as an alarm clock on local time! (yes I have).


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## Ancient-Mariner (Mar 30, 2009)

One of my MSF radio controlled clocks failed a few weeks back (mechanical problems, it was though just over 10 years old, bought from Sewills of Liverpool. Brass case ship clock style on wooden surround.) So got around last week to ordering a replacement movement off eBay.

This evening fitted the movement, fitted the battery and it went into synch mode where after going to 04:00hrs it waits. And so far has not managed to re-start. Knowing that there have been some issues at Anthorn, I had a look at the LF spectrum and MSF was fine, but there on 61.75 kHz was a signal some 4dB stronger! Looks like it is transmitted by Inskip in Lancashire which is on a direct line from me in Hawarden, Flintshire to Anthorn, so cannot try repositioning the clock. At least when MSF was transmitted from Rugby there was always the possibility of nulling Inskip's signal.

Looking at a handy VLF/LF website, http://lf-radio.de/cgi-bin/fh/show_wf.cgi?date=14-06-02 I can see that 61.75 kHz came on air 2nd June at about 0700z. (Just after 51.95 kHz, the other UK navy transmission, went off air.

My own VLF/LF receiver is an RF-Space SDR-IQ and a PA0RDT mini-whip aerial.

Cheers!

Clive


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## Willum (Feb 20, 2012)

MSF (60Khz) went QRT for a while, its back on now.
I made a batch of those PA0RDT (smd) very good too, if you set one up as a hand-held you'll notice it picks up well from the ground. So instead of the wee plate I connected it to one of those shoe-based anti-static earthing straps and use it with an alinco DJ-X11 receiver when walking the dog, you do get a bit of RF gain effect while walking along though! SDR-IQ/ S-vue is a gem. I now use a QS1R with AR5000 but this is for microwave stuff mostly.
Phil 'Willum' Williams G3YPQ Ex QE2 Tech R/O


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

I have just discovered that it is my BT Home Hub - Router - Modem or whatever you like to call it, that is causing the QRM to my radio controlled clock causing it to lose the signal from MSF.

David
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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

David does your modem work on 2.4 or 5.2 as I had problems with wireless due to the output of some 2.4 equipment?


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

It is a standard BT Home Hub 3.0 settings - Type B. Not being a huge fan of Wi-Fi though, it is wire connected. Also, it does sit right next to the clock. 

David
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## Farmer John (Feb 22, 2012)

Farmer John said:


> I've got one, but I can't find it...


GPS.

Still haven't seen it.


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

It came free with the package !

David
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## johnvvc (Feb 8, 2008)

R651400 said:


> #52...Why not an ethernet only router without wifi?


Routes often have the provision to turn the wireless off, that might be the way to go if you're only using ethernet...


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

I almost became a BT customer a few years ago. One of the things which put me off was their apparent requirement to provide access to any other BT customer in the immediate vicinity via the provided 'hub' 
From this I gather that the BT hub and its use is all part of the package. 

I am currently a Sky customer by default (they bought out my ISP) but I use my own router - Sky do not approve and it took some effort to get the required settings. 

If you want ethernet only on BT, or most other ISPs, then the most reliable method would be to buy your own, non-wifi, router.



The MSF clock carrier frequency is 60kHz - The NPL website gives some suggestions regarding problems:

http://www.npl.co.uk/science-techno...ducts-and-services/time/common-clock-problems


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## johnvvc (Feb 8, 2008)

johnvvc said:


> Routes often have the provision to turn the wireless off, that might be the way to go if you're only using ethernet...


Routes of course should read router...

Stupid American keyboard - never could spell correctly !


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