# unknown tall ship



## Jan Hendrik (Feb 14, 2005)

For one of our friends from the maritime site Kombuispraat (galley talk) we are looking for the name and particulars of this tall ship which photo he obtained from his grandfather and the picture must have been taken around 1930.
Stein, could you help? One suggestion offered: Grace Harwar, however, I am in doubt on this.
Thanks
Jan


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## gdynia (Nov 3, 2005)

Jan
Here is a photo of the Grace Harwar they are very similar. The only other I can think of is the Loch Linnhe which was lost in the Baltic early 30,s


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

I think it is possibly the *Wintherhude Ex Mabel Rickmers *built in 1898 by Rickmers Reismühlen, Rhederei und Schiffbau AG, Bremen. Dimensions: 81,44×12,20×7,54 meters and tonnage: 2065 GRT, 1985 NRT, and 3060 DWT. 

Chris.


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## David Davies (Dec 11, 2006)

Jan
It is not the Grace Harwar which had split t'gallants.My guess is that she is the Star of Alaska ex Balclutha later Pacific Queen Built Connells of Glasgow 1886 for British owners.She was later operated by Alaska Packers until1928. She is still afloat today under her old name Balclutha in San Francisco, perhaps one of our American members can confirm this. Another posibility is Tusitala of New York ex Sophie ex Sierra Lucena ex Inveruglas built by Steele of Greenock in 1883 for the Indian trade. She traded in 1932 Honolulu to USA.
In 1939 US naval authorities took her over and she became a cadet training ship. After the war she faded from the picture and I've no further information.
Dave


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## David Davies (Dec 11, 2006)

Chris
Sorry to be such a "know all" but Winterhude was a barque as was the Loch Linnhe although she (Loch Linnhe) was built as a ship but cut down to a barque in 1925. The ship in question dates from 1860s to 1890s and has the rigg of that period i.e. split tops'ls and full t'gallants
Dave


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## Jan Hendrik (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for the lively discussion and information, meanwhile also received some updates from Gdynia.
Will pass on all this info to the person concerned.
Jan


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

David,

Dont apologise, no need, sailing ships are obviously your subject and I bow to your knowledge. I thought I was on a winner but I must admit I failed to notice that she was barque rigged.

I have to admit though to having a sailing ship in my discharge book, STA brig Prince William, which makes me proud. I have also been fortunate to have been aboard Mir, Kruzenshtern, Dar Mladziezy, Danmark and Sagres. I count myself a lucky chap.

Kind regards

Chris.


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## David Davies (Dec 11, 2006)

Santos said:


> David,
> 
> Dont apologise, no need, sailing ships are obviously your subject and I bow to your knowledge. I thought I was on a winner but I must admit I failed to notice that she was barque rigged.
> 
> ...


Chris
I enyy your sqare rigged discharge. I hoped to join Pamir in 1948 but fell off a horse and broke my collar bone and eventually ended up polishing brass on a Union Castle liner instead of treading the foot ropes. I continued in the MN for 15 years passing for Master FG in 1958 but my heart was not in "steam" and I came ashore in1963. I eventually became a "yachty" and spent the next 25 years sailing off shore in the North Sea and discovered a basic seafareing that had eluded me in The MN developing a sea sense devoid of electronics and engines (we did have an auxiliary), and dare I say it becoming what I considered A Sailor. My interest and attraction to sail has never wained but is still secondary to my equestrianism which stopped me going on a square rigger in the first place. At 75 I still ride out several times a week but then the ability to sail a ship and ride a horse were the two factors that made The Empire or is that politically incorect.
Regards
Dave


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## PollY Anna (Sep 4, 2006)

Nice to see that we still have a few iron men that sailed on wooden ships.
I wish I'd had the opportunity, just to climb aloft and unfurl those sails would have been an experience to last a lifetime.

Ron


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

jan, looking at your picture. I notice that she has a line of ports the length of her hull at tween deck level. This suggests that she was a training ship and not a cargo carrier. Cheers Jock


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

Jock well spotted. 

The more I look at Jans photo the more I now think it could be the ''Dar Pomorza'' the Polish sailing ship that is now a museum. I have been on her and she is beautiful and looks just like Jans photo. " Dar Mladziezy " was built to succede her and is just as beautiful even though she is a newy.

Yes I will stick my neck out, I think the photo is ''Dar Pomorza'' 

Chris


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## David Davies (Dec 11, 2006)

Sorry all
Closer research shows she is not Balclutha ex Star of Alaska ex Pacific Queen although she could still be Tusitala converted to a cadet ship 1930's. The Dar Pormorza !982 photo 1930 ? The Dar Pormorza has wire standing rigging set up with bottle screws. The ship in photo has shroud laid standing rigging set up on dead eyes with lanyards (blowing up the photo one can also see the Mathew Walkers) 
The plot thickens
Dave


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## duquesa (Aug 31, 2006)

I really don't believe it to be the Dar Pomarza. Looking closely there are some differences, particularly around the bowsprit.


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## David Davies (Dec 11, 2006)

*Unknown Tall Ship*

Ref:- Last Survivors in Sail.by John Anderson published Percival Marshall Ltd 1948 price 3/-. The only ship it can be is Pacific Queen ex Star of Alaska ex Balclutha detals as my previos post. By counting the ports in tween deck I concluded that the photo was not Pacific Queen and then further reseach revealed that in1928 she was withdrawn from service by Alaska Packers and sold in 1932 to a syndicate to send her round the world on a de-luxe yachting trip hence the additional portholes in the tween deck to facilitate passenger cabins and public rooms. The cir***navigation did not come off but she was used in a passenger cruise capacitiy and in film making including "Mutiny on the Bounty" (The Charles Loughton and Clarke Gable one). She was then used as a sea scout training ship but seldom put out to sea. Evntually she was taken over by a museum trust and reverted to her original name Balclutha. She is still afloat today in San Francisco (Look up Balclutha on Google) and although her painted livery is that of a Blackwall Frigate as she would have been in her British Merchant Service days the additional portholes can still be seen and marry up with the 1930 photo.
Mystery Solved ?
Dave


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## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

Balclutha at Hyde St pier S.F


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## Jan Hendrik (Feb 14, 2005)

Dave, I don't know, meanwhile I will pass on this info to my friend and meanwhile study the photos of the Balclutha (I took photos myself during a visit).
Thanks for your efforts,
Jan


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

It's the Af Chapman. Formerly the Dunboyne, and as such portrayed and posted in the Sailing Ship category by me. Here's my portrait:http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/39462/cat/524/si/dunboyne/perpage/12 
And here's a website on her:http://www.mightyseas.co.uk/marhist/whitehaven/wsbc/dunboyne.htm
Regards, Stein.


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## Jan Hendrik (Feb 14, 2005)

Stein, thanks for coming into the act here, but I have been going through some other photos of the Af Chapman as well as yours now and cannot make ends meet.
The Af Chapman has double portholes on top of each other near the stern.
The photo I produced (my friend's) has not got those portholes.
If you take a close look then you can see what I mean.
Unless the ship had a dramatic change at one time.
Jan


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

It's the Af Chapman, I'll see if I can arrange a photo:


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

Hi Jan. This ship has some quite special features. The fore topmast stay nearly on top of the forestay for example. Which not unaturally made the crew refrain from setting the fore topmast staysail, as in your photo. (Incidentally, also no bench for the downhauls). Extremely short bowsprit, lack of sheer, very pyramidical sail area, two figureheads, buck ugly stern with the "whaleback" "bulging" and the lower chine set too low, and so on. She's just not to be mistaken for anything else. Never mind the portholes, originally there were none beneath deck, boring a couple more cannot be termed dramatic. The above photo is from page 112 in Jan Davidson's book on the ship, titled "Af Chapman" and published in Gøteborg in 1983. Regards, Stein.


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## David Davies (Dec 11, 2006)

Looking at Alf Chapman's fore upper tops'l-tye and halliards both upper and lower seem to have the same depth or bunt whilst in the now controversial photo the fore upper tops'l has a greater bunt than the lower tops'l being only equal at the mizen.


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## Jan Hendrik (Feb 14, 2005)

It looks like we are there..... Thanks Stein, going by the photo you just posted then "bingo" I would say.
In the book of Otmar Schauffelen re the last windjammers I found the following photo and text, although the text is in Dutch I think you will understand and no doubt you have same info already available.
Thanks again for your input, much appreciated. Also David and others, thanks a lot for your interest in this subject.
Jan


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

Hi David. The prime difference in depth given to upper and lower topsail here is the quantity of roach given to the foot of the sail. Without a stay that the foot may chafe on, not much roach are needed. In the original photo a slight gust of wind fills the mizzen upper topsail and gives a false impression of a relatively different depth division. Other pictures show the relation between the two sails to be equal on the three tops. 

The lack of roach goes for the upper topgallants as well, when such are carried, and for the same reason. As the lower topsails were the last sails that were carried, some wanted these very shallow. 

And by the way: the "af" in Af Chapman denotes aristocracy as the English "of", the German "von" and the French "de". Frederik Henrik Chapman, the son of an English naval officer, was given the "af" for his service to Sweden as a naval architect. A book on his life and work was recently published by Conway Maritime Press. Regards, Stein.


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## Bram (Feb 24, 2006)

*Af Chapman*

Hello Jan Hendrik and other shipmates .

I would like to thank all of you ,with helping me to find de name of the ship from the picture {photo} what was in the belongings of mijn greatfather who died in 1940,so I never had a change to ask him ,because I `am from 1942.

Jan Hendrik and all of you thank you for the information.

Kindley regards Bram(Thumb)


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## David Davies (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks Stein
I get your point. It's been an interesting discussion, has any one got another photo?


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

I've got some photos David. I'll post one in the sailing ship gallery, regrettably this one too with a lack of wind, but taken from an airplane with some deck-details showing. Regards, Stein.


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