# Health and Safety grounds lifeboat



## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

After saving a drowning 13 year old girl, a 17ft inflatable lifeboat at Hope Cove Devon is reported as being confiscated by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency because it was waiting to be inspected by the agency after repairs when the girl got into trouble 150 yards out to sea. The three men crew, part of an 11 strong rescue crew launched the boat and helped bring the girl ashore. They now stand accused of breaching safety rules over the use of the craft, and face disciplinary action. Their station officer has been banned from discussing the situation, but an ex crewman has told the story.

Locals are said to be very angry saying people could die without a lifeboat. The nearest RNLI lifeboat is 6 miles away and could have taken 20 minutes to reach the girl which is why the three men crew launched their boat despite it not being inspected after repairs. The crew paid £2,000 of their own money in June to fix the boats hull.

The boat was towed away and locked up due to repairs not being inspected. A spokesman for the MCA said they had identified a serious breach of health and safety procedures and they are being investigated. The boat has been stood down for a further 8 weeks while we investigate the possibility of repair or replacement.

Sounds like health and safety and red tape gone totally mad again. These three men saved this girl, but instead of praise from their bosses they are getting a bollocking for putting a child's life before rules.

Has the world gone totally mad (Cloud) 

David


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## Peter4447 (Jan 26, 2006)

If you go to the BBC Devon webpage you will find the details.
Peter(Thumb)


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Thanks Peter

Here is the link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7561158.stm


David


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## Geoff_E (Nov 24, 2006)

"We have a named "jobsworth" here!. I wonder what people would say if the guys had done nothing and the girl drowned!

I pay this "person's ?" pension. So do the rest of you. Perhaps this also highlights the value we get from the massed battalions of the MCA?


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## 6639 (Apr 20, 2006)

without prophanities and having a blood boiling stroke, i can only say I DON'T BELIEVE IT??!!!!!(Cloud) (Cloud) (Cloud)


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

Words fail me


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

If Peter 447 had not directed us to the BBC website I would have thought someone was having a laugh, it seems all too farfetched to be true.

In the UK we are all to blame for this situation, we discuss, we whinge but then shrug our shoulders and come out with the same well worn cliche ''what can we do.''

Regards Robert


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Robert

We are all to blame for voting for a Government that is making all these potty rules. The MCA like all other institutions have to adhere to crazy rules handed down to them. In the NHS where I worked, staff are so badly affected by similar crazy rules, red tape and targets it is affecting patients and in some cases fatally.

On the other hand, when we want the Government to poke their nose in like stopping any old Tom Dick or Harry taking a boat out unless qualified, or better warnings along our coasts for visitors and locals alike or warnings that may have prevent that little girl falling in the river then I don't think many would complain. But instead we have crazy rules that make car park attendants book crew of rescue boats, make the MCA adhere to regulations that if adhered to in this case by the crew could have meant a girl drowned, or making a nurse fill out reams of paperwork holding up waiting times, or doctors having to keep to time so misses something, or a surgeon having keep to the same targets so hurries an operation, and makes a mistake. All this is happening all the time in the NHS alone and all because of a meddling Government that is obsessed with targets, bureaucracy and red tape sticking their nose into every inch of our lives ordering everybody about except doing something really useful like trying to prevent needless accidents at the seaside every year, especially summer months.

Like I said when I started this thread, has the world gone totally mad?. You are right Robert, it is our fault for voting this present Government in, not that any other would be any different, but this lot certainly is. Don't blame the MCA or anybody else, but those in high command who think up these crazy rules and make organisations to put them into action. Like everything in life, it starts at the top, but it is those further down the line who are blamed. And if a person dies because a doctor or surgeon made a mistake trying to keep to targets they are blamed, but the real blame is much further up the line.

David


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## ddraigmor (Sep 13, 2006)

Delicate subject. One the one hand, it is the Elf and Safety gremlins gone absolutely mad. 

However, what would have happened if the girl and the crew had then got into difficulties / drowned because of the boat's safety breaches? That would have had a lot of folk up in arms. The Chief Coastguard picked that one up as well - and it is something to think about.

The easiest solution is to do what the RNLI do with a faulty boat: you put another in its place. They never allow such small details to detract from their prime duty - saving lives at sea. 

As for the MCA - you'd have thought that their remit was similiar - so why did they not replace the boat whilst she was undergoing survey / repairs? Oh sorry - they don't think in practical terms, do they?

Jonty


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

In the event a life was saved & it was therefore proven that the boat was, dare I say it, 'fit for purpose'. This would seem to indicate that the MCA were incorrect in their assessment of the condition of the boat. One can only wonder at the fitness for purpose of the MCA as it appears that they are unconcerned about how many will die in the name of health & safety.


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## JimC (Nov 8, 2007)

This is not entirely new.

In 1912, during the Titanic disaster, Captain Rostron of the vessel 'Carpathia' was publicly congratulated on both sides of the Atlantic for taking his vessel full of passengers through an ice field at full speed to rescue survivors from a passenger ship which had sunk as a result of- guess what?: travelling at full speed through an ice field! To compound the felony, the same captain was firing-off distress rockets as he charged - U.S. Cavalry-like to the rescue. Is it any wonder there was complete confusion in the area that night? Ironically, the same people who congratulated Captain Rostron - condemned Captain Smith of 'Titanic' even although _*he*_ was not fully aware of the extent of the ice field. They also condemned Captain Lord of the Californian and Captain Moor of the Mount Temple for following the universally recognised rules of caution in a dangerous situation. I often wonder what would have happened if Carpathia had also come a cropper? (doesn't bear thinking about actually).
After the Titanic disaster, many sensible safety rules were developed which seafarers today continue to benefit by.
Unfortunately the biggest modern 'scurge' is the 'ambulance chasers'. OK! in the beginning these people helped to focus minds on carelessness and dangerous practices in public life. Now we are all now having to put up with crazy, nit-picking rules designed, in many cases, to head off these 'vultures' at the 'pass'. Looking ahead: what will these people get 
'up to' when all the loop-holes have been closed? The mind boggles.


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

Pompeyfan
My wife has had a lot of dealings with the NHS in the last four years. We have nothing but praise for the professional and care that she has received. I understand the points you are making regarding targets, I visit a website regularly and check on MPs background, I find many have been to uni. come out and get jobs within the political circle and have no experience of the real world.


I was reading a letter on the teletext pages a few weeks ago, the writer of which suggested that we should all stand together and vote for any candidate standing except those from the three main parties, I wonder if we were able to do this and had a complete clearout whether it would make the present in***bants sit up and listen to the public.

Regards Robert


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## vmr (May 25, 2008)

re health and safety grounds lifeboat, cannot believe this stupidity! as a volunteer lifeboatman here in oz, the skipper makes the final call and judgment if he thinks it safe to proceed, sounds like to many chiefs!,VMR.


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## Steve Woodward (Sep 4, 2006)

One of todays newspapers reports that a fine upstanding citizen, a retired Chef, has been baking cakes to sell for charity, raising more than £2,000 for the RNLI, she has been told to stop by her local council. NE Lincs council insists that she has to take out a Public Liability Insurance Policy for £5 million !!!!!
We have to stop this namby pamby world before we have no lives left to live


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

Steve
A similar ruling was made against some WI organisation last year regarding home baking. 
I remember during the war years when sweets were rationed we would spend pocket money on a carrot and rub it against a brick/cement wall to clean it.
Not being a medical expert I cannot be absolutely certain, but, I often wonder if health and safety is so OTT now it is destroying peoples immune systems.
Regard Robert


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## Don Matheson (Mar 13, 2007)

Cant get my head round this. If the boat was faulty, and it seems it was'nt as the crew rescued the girl. why was it not taken out of service before it was used. I also wonder in the name of all thats holy, how could it possibly take eight weeks for MCA to inspect, service and repair the boat? Remember this is a seventeen foot inflatable not a passenger ship. Seems to me that its another case of incompetence. 
On the HSE rules bandied about by everyone, I run a small company with some strange clients, hospitals, police, NATO etc, I now ask anyone who mentions the HSE " You have just mentioned a government regulation, but which part of the regulation, can you give me a reference to your statement that I may check it!"
Shuts them up every time as they just mouth off about the HSE without any knowledge of the regulations. Try it, it works everytime.
Don


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Steve Woodward said:


> One of todays newspapers reports that a fine upstanding citizen, a retired Chef, has been baking cakes to sell for charity, raising more than £2,000 for the RNLI, she has been told to stop by her local council. NE Lincs council insists that she has to take out a Public Liability Insurance Policy for £5 million !!!!!
> We have to stop this namby pamby world before we have no lives left to live


Steve

Strange you should post this story, I have just been reading about it!.

Robert

I am glad that your wife received good treatment in the NHS, and in general this is the case. But you must understand that I am aware of incidents that are never made public. Now and again some stories do get out usually as a result of relatives, but I make my comments with qualified authority. Sadly I cannot explain in detail what I mean for various reasons both confidentially and legally. I can say more now than when I worked for the NHS, but only a small amount and in general terms. However, when professionals like myself retired or otherwise show our concern as to what is going on in the NHS, you can be sure there is far more behind it than the public realize. 

You would be quite alarmed at the pressure all NHS staff are under. But they are all professionals, that is what the patients see, and long may it continue. But behind the scenes it is a very different story.

That is why I compare the NHS with other industries because I can see the same things happening, and all coming from the same source, a very bossy Government who sadly do not understand any of them and creating jobsworths in every walk of life. The only difference is that you do not die in any other industry when under such pressure. 

However, I am going off my own thread?!. 

David


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

David
I do understand where you are coming from and do not doubt your expertise in this matter regarding the NHS. I have read articles written by serving senior nurses and consultants regarding the way the NHS is going. Apart from targets that you mentioned, the biggest critism was about political interference but also regarding managers that can read the bottom line of a balance sheet but have no clinical or medical knowledge. Also the fear of speaking out.
My wife has several complaints including heart trouble, diabetes and a painful hip. We have ten minutes drive from our home a brand new hospital, privately owned that treats NHS patients, when we were given a choice of hospitals to go to for her hip problems we choose the nearest, they will not touch her because of her heart problems so had to go twenty miles to a proper NHS hospital.
So David while I do understand the points you are making I can only praise the dedication of our NHS professionals.

Regards Robert


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

vmr said:


> re health and safety grounds lifeboat, cannot believe this stupidity! as a volunteer lifeboatman here in oz, the skipper makes the final call and judgment if he thinks it safe to proceed, sounds like to many chiefs!,VMR.


Well Said ! Derek


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Robert

I will send you a PM because mentioning the NHS completely is not in keeping with the meaning of this thread. I only brought the NHS in as comparison because of the crazy rules they have to follow that is affecting patients in the same manner as the reason I started this thread regarding the lifeboat.

Of course NHS staff are dedicated, that is not my point. It is not what the public see and the way they are treated, it is what they don't see. You are right about speaking out, the NHS is run like a dictatorship. If you speak to outside sources especially the press, you are sacked. The wrong people are now running it. They need to go back to basics where doctors treated, nurses nursed and administrators administered. All were trained within the NHS, few from outside industry including admin, usually from school. And of course support services, like pathology (my department) and radiology are specially trained. Doctors cannot treat without the results of either. Even porters and cleaners in the old days were hospital trained meaning they worked for the hospital itself, not a franchise etc. Not any more. The Griffith Report of 1983 ( he was a Supermarket expert) changed all that, and the NHS has suffered ever since and it is getting worse. I am not sure how much longer staff can hide what is really going on.

Anyway, that is not for this thread, this thread is about the lifeboat in Devon.

David


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## Lifeboat1721 (Mar 15, 2007)

Mad Mad Mad (MAD) (MAD)


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Lifeboat1721 said:


> Mad Mad Mad (MAD) (MAD)


I echo that Lifeboat. There is a lifeboat station and shop just down the road from me.

David


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## forthbridge (Jun 28, 2007)

ROBERT HENDERSON said:


> Steve
> A similar ruling was made against some WI organisation last year regarding home baking.
> I remember during the war years when sweets were rationed we would spend pocket money on a carrot and rub it against a brick/cement wall to clean it.
> Not being a medical expert I cannot be absolutely certain, but, I often wonder if health and safety is so OTT now it is destroying peoples immune systems.
> Regard Robert


Robert, I don't think health and safety is over the top when handled by professionals. The problem is with council officials who have done a half day training course and think they know all there is about the subject and tales without foundation spread by the media. The Health and Safety Executive website www.hse.gov.uk has a section called myth of the month. It is worth looking at.
Dave


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

forthbridge said:


> Robert, I don't think health and safety is over the top when handled by professionals. The problem is with council officials who have done a half day training course and think they know all there is about the subject and tales without foundation spread by the media. The Health and Safety Executive website www.hse.gov.uk has a section called myth of the month. It is worth looking at.
> Dave


Briefly, (without taking this further off thread) Robert is right. We have become too sterile. Children in particular no longer have immunity to many ailments. And we have become too successful with antibiotics meaning we are creating new diseases that is resistant to some anitbiotics like MRSA and C Diff. In short, we are creating as many problems as we solve for being too clean. 

That is why doctors and indeed nurses are being told off by others for not washing their hands. I have been exposed directly to every disease going, but never caught anything. Didn't have a cold or flu for 20 years until I retired. I, as well as many other medical professionals picked up an immunity to these things. 

Sorry for going off the thread I started again (Cloud) 

David


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## Chris Jones (Aug 8, 2008)

PC H&s Has become a major global desease


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## Peter Wearing (Aug 31, 2005)

Health and safety does have an important roll to play in our lives, i have witnessed some awful accidents at sea which could have been stopped with some basic thought to safety, but like many things in life it goes all to far and becomes a reason not to do something or prevent something from the minuscle chance of going wrong, we all read the papers about binmen not wanting to empty bins in case they 'do' their back in, the list is endless, and most of the blame must lie with the compensation culture which more or less says there is no such thing as a blameless accident.
It drives us all mad, but i think it is here for good.
Peter


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## J Boyde (Apr 7, 2005)

13 years as a heath and safety officer, including 3 and a half months for a company in Malaysia. I had, I believe, a great background for ther job. Fitter turner, years at sea as engineer, several years in powerstations and time with an industrial electrical control room operator. For industry a great background. I had a few accidents and in the job, spent a lot of time investigating accidents. Many were concealed by the people involved and supervisors. The authorities all too often took people and companies to court because they used the best information they had available. There was also a practice for companies to accept the option and court because they didnt have the ability, it knowledge, to challenge OSH. On top of that, many did not tell their lawyers, or they didnt have the knowledge to challange the courts. Many people are accused wrongly, others deserved what they recieved. Money unfortunatly, all too often made the decision.
JIm B


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

In my job, I was only too well aware how important health and safety can be. But sadly, most accidents are blindingly obvious to avoid without the need for health and safety. However, where everybody can be more sensible when doing something, it can also be taken too far the other way as in this case. It is quite obvious that the boat was able to carry out this rescue. Therefore sticking rigidly to rules can be just as dangerous as not sticking to them.

Surely, at the end of the day it is down to common sense rather than rules that jobsworths stick to even when common sense says otherwise. In this case common sense saved this youngster. Sticking to the rules would have almost certainly killed her.

David


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

I have to agree with David's last posting. I also believe that a lot of non jobs,both at local and national level, have been created to keep employment figures down, give these people a fancy title and they dictate to the people who pay their wages and pensions instead of serving the public. My own grand daughter left school with a couple of low grade GCSEs and has recently got a job with the local district council in the benefits department, what we would once have called a clerk, she entitles herself as a local government officer. How the hell with no qualifications can she be termed an officer.

Another reason I believe for a lot of health and safety problems come from the legal profession failures turned politicians that allowed the legal profession to advertise. Every day we see on television adverts from the ambulance chasers, so that some smaller events have been cancelled due to the fact that insurance premiums have gone sky high due to the fear of litigation.

Robert


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## Ian6 (Feb 1, 2006)

I often suspect that some of the oddest, common-sense-defying 'rules' result from some safety committee or the other charged with meeting once a month. To justify their existence they need a new idea each month. At first some good ideas occur but the law of diminishing returns applies and after a while they have to dig around to invent new dangers.
It is a bit like the way that a newly elected government starts off with some OK changes but eventually runs out of good new plans but still has to be seen to be doing things so we get a privatisation too far etc.
Half a century ago when I was serving my time with Caltex the oil refinery 'safety consciousness' applied but very weakly at sea. All letters from the head office had a safety slogan at the end. A long lasting one was 'Take time to be safe', careful erasing and adding enabled us to convert this to read 'Take me to beer, sarb'. Correct phonetics, poor spelling. At least the whole thing was harmless. As a Deck Apprentice each Saturday I had to change a large card dispayed in the Crew Messroom. H.O. fondly believed that it contained good safety advice, in Urdu script. The Serang assured me it was completely unintelligible (not his actual words, you understand).
Safety was less important than profit, so it was OK to mend lifeboats with old chart paper, plus three coats of white paint.
Ian


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

The following was taken from a national newspaper to day concerning health ans safety of postmen and women, I have left the names of the people concerned out.

**** and **** *** were told in February that the metal outside staircase to their flat in Bridlington was too dangerous, so services to them have been withdrawn.

**** **** , of Hove was told in 2007 to cut back overgrown shrubs because it threatened postmen's health and safety.

In 2006, the Highland community of Ardmore lost its deliveries after a postman slipped on a grassy slope.

**** ***, 80 OF NORWICH, WAS TOLD IN 2004 HE COULDN'T HAVE MAIL DELIVERED BECAUSE HIS LETTERBOX WAS AT THE BOTTOM OF HIS FRONT DOOR.

Robert


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

I fully agree with David but would amplify his comments by adding that possibly the best judge of the situation, bearing in mind not only his experience & knowledge of the boat and the local waters, but his assessment of the known facts & his own abilities, would be the man who bore the responsibility of taking his boat & crew to effect the rescue. I do not beleive that any CG watch officer, be he an extra master or an admiral, would be sufficiently qualified to fully & competently judge the actual conditions of a potential drowning several miles away. The local lifeboat cox'n or helmsman is the only competent authority to make the descision. These people are fine, brave, competent & experienced inshore seamen with the finest voluntary marine rescue service in the world.

I don't know of any seaman of any nationality with which I have had the pleasure to sail, who would not do his utmost to save a drowning child. I have a pretty good idea of the advice that he would offer to any jobsworth who dared to forbid him.

I rest my case.
Tony


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Well said Tony - I think you speak for all of us! (Applause)


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## Peter4447 (Jan 26, 2006)

The boat is now back on station after inspection and work to bring it upto 'standard'. Some fuel lines were re-routed, some work was carried out on the compass, two plastic grommets were added to the engine cover and a first aid kit was installed. The total bill came to £300.
The long term future of the boat remaining at Hope Cove remains in doubt as it may be axed in a cost-cutting exercise although the local MP and many others are fighting for its retention.
Peter4447


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

How irresponsible of those guys to go out and save a girls life when there was a need for two grommets and £300 of work! Whatever were they thinking of!(Cloud)


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## Coastie (Aug 24, 2005)

If the crew of the boat felt that it was safe enough to launch, (they are the best judges of the boats integrity afterall.) then why are they being penalised?

A CG team member recently dived into the water to save someones life up here in North Wales. Hmm!


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Coastie said:


> If the crew of the boat felt that it was safe enough to launch, (they are the best judges of the boats integrity afterall.) then why are they being penalised?
> 
> A CG team member recently dived into the water to save someones life up here in North Wales. Hmm!


Because of the crazy world we now live in Coastie. A world, or should I say country where people are penalised for using common sense, acting out sheer instinct instead of sticking rigidly health and safety, the PC brigade and all other restrictions now put on us by this very interfering Government who by and large instead of protecting us with their rules and regulations are tying our hands behind our backs. If it were not for men like this who put two fingers up to establishment then far more people would die.

Lives are often saved out of sheer instinct. Yes, risks are often taken on the spur of the moment, but who said life was easy. Yet it is often made harder by wrapping us up in cotton wool with all these rules, red tape and bureaucracy.

Yet, lives could be lost the Bank Holiday Weekend, not because there are too many rules and jobsworth around, but because when we want the Government to stop people taking boats out, they don't. They will stop a pleasure boat going out in certain conditions. For example, a boat from Yarmouth here on the island has only got a Solent licence, and can only go out then in certain conditions, but not beyond the Needles. Yet, there is nothing to stop a family on holiday taking a small boast out in any condition AND beyond the Needles.

What a crazy situation when we have silly rules stopping rescuers going out, or a pleasure boat with a qualified skipper stopped, when *anbody* can take a private boat out with no qualifications at all when even a jobsworth can't stop them, yet they *can* stop a lifeboat going out if it has not passed an inspection following repairs. 

And although only into Sunday, two lots of people have already been cut off by the tide just down the road from me. Each time they were saved, but every year others are not so lucky. 

Lets hope they can keep this boat Peter because all sea areas on our very dangerous coasts need as many rescue services and inflatable lifeboats as possible, and not having their hands tied with crazy red tape. As others have said, the crew know how seaworthy the boat is. 

David


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