# Certificates of Competnecy



## Chillytoes (Dec 9, 2006)

The Australian Maritime Safety Authority is planning to do away with the current passport-type Certificate Of Competency and replace them with a card, such as one gets from a department store rewards program.

Sort of takes away the pleasure one felt in gaining a certificate. I remember the thrill of receiving my 2nd's Motor in its red bookcloth covered cardboard double folding card with gold lettering and crest. It was no less exciting to earn my later Chief's Steam and Motor. It was an occasion to make one feel proud to have got through all the hoops.

I don't know the reasoning behind this plan, is it some IMCO directive? Do other countries have this system or an actual certificate?


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## tiachapman (Mar 25, 2008)

progress yer my ****


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## stehogg (Mar 14, 2016)

*Certificates of competency*

Lets hope this trend doesnt descend to airline pilots,doctors and surgeons,always thought that young people these days were being conned when they were given apprenticeships lasting only 2 years,maybe because mine was a full 5 years only then can I honestly say I started to learn my trade.(==D)


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

STCW has devalued all respected certification. Class One CoC is now equal to the old BA (Bombay) Failed.


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## tiachapman (Mar 25, 2008)

even indentures are not needed now and if you have them they are useless if you apply for a chippys job . need a card now which has to be renewed every 2 years at your 
cost


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

Certificates of " Competnecy "

I wish someone would correct the title of this thread. The typo spoils the point.


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## Chillytoes (Dec 9, 2006)

NoR - sorry about the typo in opening this thread.
What I am really looking for is information on the issuing of these miserable little cards. Is it now common practice in every country and if not, what format is adopted in issuing Certificate of Competency/Licences?


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

For many years Denholm had a form "Radar Efficency Report".

There is a little brightness in STCW we may all catch up with the Eastern Block soon have Electrical CoCs. No fear, however, of ever approaching their over-the- top standards for gaining one but let us equally hope that it will have some portability/articulation with shore requirements. (See also DNV Standard 3.304 and IEC 60092-502/509)


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## tiachapman (Mar 25, 2008)

gone are the days if you could do the job you got it


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I prefer to think of it as gone are the days when those that couldn't could get away with it. If one can 'do it' then it is not difficult to pass an examination or two to prove it.

Less happily we must offer the employee a career path that may well suit him better than it does the employer and part of this, in GB, is tailoring all education to articulate upwards towards higher education. we cannot simply arrest the colleges once the candidate has absorbed what we want absorbed but it must go ever upward. Perhaps an advantage that the third worlders have over the westerners. All my "Baby ETOs" as others nicknamed them went on to better than the 'boss' (laughingly termed) leaving him to ever seek out equal talent to replace them. Otherwise I would have had to do some work for myself! (not that I did not value the able but unqualified too).


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Probably those credit card looking certs will be handy to wave about at RSLs and Leagues Clubs and gain entry without messing about signing in.

John T


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## captrees (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm disgusted with this too. I have to revalidate my master's certificate soon, and all I get for my efforts is a horrid little piece of plastic. My GMDSS ticket, STCW revalidation are little bits of plastic too.

AMSA have given us nothing but grief for years when it comes to revalidating anything that should be in perpetuity, and do nothing to stop all the 457 visa holders from taking our jobs.


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

captrees said:


> I'm disgusted with this too. I have to revalidate my master's certificate soon, and all I get for my efforts is a horrid little piece of plastic. My GMDSS ticket, STCW revalidation are little bits of plastic too.
> 
> AMSA have given us nothing but grief for years when it comes to revalidating anything that should be in perpetuity, and do nothing to stop all the 457 visa holders from taking our jobs.


The powers that be hated certificates of competency, they conferred too much status and independence on the holder. So they got rid of them and issued what are in effect licences for which the holders are forever beholden to the licensing authority. This policy also enhances the free movement of cheap labour since you can 'licence' all and sundry whilst granting a certificate of competency is a whole different ball game.


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## Donald McGhee (Apr 5, 2005)

Chillytoes said:


> The Australian Maritime Safety Authority is planning to do away with the current passport-type Certificate Of Competency and replace them with a card, such as one gets from a department store rewards program.
> 
> Sort of takes away the pleasure one felt in gaining a certificate. I remember the thrill of receiving my 2nd's Motor in its red bookcloth covered cardboard double folding card with gold lettering and crest. It was no less exciting to earn my later Chief's Steam and Motor. It was an occasion to make one feel proud to have got through all the hoops.
> 
> I don't know the reasoning behind this plan, is it some IMCO directive? Do other countries have this system or an actual certificate?


Already a done deal here in NZ. My ticket is the size of a credit card, same material, with a photo and expiry date. No real pride in this, convenient to cart around with you, but can't really take any pride in hanging a credit card bit of plastic on the bulkhead can ya?
Gone are the days mate, a bit similar to calling criminals clients, Officers in the Police, Fire and Ambulance a "manager' and the general reduction and discounting of worthwhile things and titles. A sort of emasculation of achievement.


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

I am very fond of the flowery, officialeeze language used in my CoC, "Whereas you have been found duly qualified to fulfil the duties of a First Class............"
My Second Class Certificate read even better but Cardiff kept it when they issued my Chiefs.
In my passport, "Her Britannic Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs Requests and Requires in the Name of Her Majesty........"
Try and get that on a Credit Card sized piece of plastic.
The Beancounters will soon have us microchipped.


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## slick (Mar 31, 2006)

All,
As with others here I bemoan the passing of the COC (Originals, of whatever stripe), mine after processing to STCW version was defaced one corner sliced off and red "CANCELLED" emblazoned across it, not worth showing anyone.
Still, I know, I am a Master Mariner and that is stamped through me.

Yours aye,

slick


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## Anchorman (Jan 13, 2006)

slick said:


> All,
> As with others here I bemoan the passing of the COC (Originals, of whatever stripe), mine after processing to STCW version was defaced one corner sliced off and red "CANCELLED" emblazoned across it, not worth showing anyone.
> Still, I know, I am a Master Mariner and that is stamped through me.
> 
> ...


Such a pity Slick and to late now. I put a covering letter with mine stating I did not want it defacing. They sent it back without cutting the corner off or defacing it with cancelled.


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

slick said:


> All,
> As with others here I bemoan the passing of the COC (Originals, of whatever stripe), mine after processing to STCW version was defaced one corner sliced off and red "CANCELLED" emblazoned across it, not worth showing anyone.
> Still, I know, I am a Master Mariner and that is stamped through me.
> 
> ...


That's terrible just shows you how much respect the pen pushers have for CoCs. Maybe someone should cancel or deface their degree certificates. What is so unfair about this is someone under the new system holding an ONC, HNC,OND,HND....? Would still hang onto those certificates even if their licences, certificates or whatever were withdrawn.


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## Boatman25 (May 17, 2010)

I wonder if these cards will be cloned, copied, etc just like bank and credit cards are, and people with no qualifications will be able to get jobs they are not qualified for and then accidents will I am sure follow


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

Boatman25 said:


> I wonder if these cards will be cloned, copied, etc just like bank and credit cards are, and people with no qualifications will be able to get jobs they are not qualified for and then accidents will I am sure follow


I'd be very surprised if there isn't a thriving market in false certificates.


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## slick (Mar 31, 2006)

All,
Re. my defaced COC, it puts me in mind of Pre-war German Passports of persons of the Jewish faith who had them defaced with red capital "J" inside on the first page...

Yours aye,

slick


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

slick said:


> All,
> Re. my defaced COC, it puts me in mind of Pre-war German Passports of persons of the Jewish faith who had them defaced with red capital "J" inside on the first page...
> 
> Yours aye,
> ...


Pure vandalism.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

NoR said:


> I'd be very surprised if there isn't a thriving market in false certificates.


An important part of 'due diligence' for new employees is to ensure certification is valid although I don't know how 'real' this is with technical managers accepting the procedures of local agents and offices to do the checking. My first Ukrainian E/O who had had no opportunity for seagoing work for some time had been employed by his own Government to vet their E/O CoCs.


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

Varley said:


> An important part of 'due diligence' for new employees is to ensure certification is valid although I don't know how 'real' this is with technical managers accepting the procedures of local agents and offices to do the checking. My first Ukrainian E/O who had had no opportunity for seagoing work for some time had been employed by his own Government to vet their E/O CoCs.


In theory and with IT it should be possible to verify certification. However the very existence of IT creates opportunity for hacking, stealing or duplicating someone else's credentials.


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## tiachapman (Mar 25, 2008)

no doubt cloning is wide spread / doctors you name it bus passes/ copy is the name of the game. even my bar maid has a cert now but cant pull a pint like the ones of yesteryears


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

tiachapman said:


> no doubt cloning is wide spread / doctors you name it bus passes/ copy is the name of the game. even my bar maid has a cert now but cant pull a pint like the ones of yesteryears


That would be the "Responsible Service of Alcohol" cert, Taff. That is so they can legally tell you to go away when you start talking sh1te. They don't care about the beer, especially that crap "craft" stuff made by breweries that produce about one barrel a week, ie the bloke next door to me,

John T


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

tiachapman said:


> no doubt cloning is wide spread / doctors you name it bus passes/ copy is the name of the game. even my bar maid has a cert now but cant pull a pint like the ones of yesteryears


The barmaid's certificate _( are we still allowed to use the term 'barmaid' ? )_ probably says that she's completed a post graduate degree in Customer Orientated Hospitality.........etc etc at The University of Bash Street. But it won't say anywhere that she's competent to pull pints.


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## JT McRae (Jun 11, 2007)

I've just renewed my Class 1 Engineers certificate (New Zealand) and I received the usual passport type certificate.
I'd be sorry to see that format replaced with a credit card sized piece of plastic.
But don't forget, not such a big deal for the younger generation of mates and engineers, as they invariably have a nice advanced diploma or degree to show for their efforts and they can frame those.


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## captrees (Apr 25, 2016)

Meanwhile, just across the water, the morons in Canberra, AMSA, have arbitrarily decided that in perpetuity now means the 31st of December this year, and expects us to do refreshers before then, or our tickets/STCWs are invalid. This includes crawling through containers of fire in our BA's all over again. Of course we have to pay $1000 a day for those courses.


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## G0SLP (Sep 4, 2007)

NoR said:


> I'd be very surprised if there isn't a thriving market in false certificates.


I've had the <pleasure> of joining a ship where the 3/Es knowledge just didn't tally with his Certification. A close look at his Discharge Book, followed by prompting the Office to investigate via the Flag State revealed that my suspicions were correct. He admitted, when I challenged him, to paying US$500 in Singapore for a counterfeit Class 2 licence. Said do***ent, on its own, looked authentic. However, placed between two genuine ones, the flaws leapt out at you. Off at the next port, and the 'ticket' retained, at Flag State's request, to be sent to them - but the cheeky swine had the brass neck to ask the Master for it back, because "But Captain, I need it for my next job..."


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I have made a little experiment. Waving my bus-pass simply does not cause as much draft as waving my redundant MRGC. Surely there must be an equivalent loss of efficacy when expecting the same wrist action to effect a solution.

I wonder if anyone has tried the experiment with a counterfeit certificate?


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## Brian McCarthy (Jul 21, 2005)

must admit my first trip deepsea as a junior in the 70's the Chief engineer was the only one with a ticket. The others were all time served people and were among the best engineers I have sailed with. I am now a Chief and the "3rd" engineers we get often have more qualifications than Einstein but some do not have the faintest idea what is going on or know the theory inside out but cannot grasp the fact that things do not always happen as the book states.


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## dannic (Mar 10, 2013)

Grandfathers handwritten on vellum, 10 x 8 inches, rolled up in a copper tube - 1901! 
"By the lords of the committee of privy council for trade......"
Worth looking at!
Dannic


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

Counterfeit Certificates are complex items with differential perforations which open on a North European Flag thereby not causing much draft. Lo and Behold put them on a dodgy Flag and the wee buggers close and generate much draft and are thus much in demand.
PSC appear unable to sniff out hookey Certs and as for Medical Certs, I've sailed with numerous Lazerus'es or Lazerii?


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

I just wonder who pays if an incident minor or major, The ship owner, the issuing authority (Government), or the ships master? as a representative of the shipowner? Or the general insurer of the ship and also the cargo insurer.
As the dollor bill says 'In god we Trust' so who is the crook, and what is all this regulation about. Do we go back to the old days of a registered Master/mate and a C/E and 2/E.
Question how do the authorities check an issuing authority and the valiity not in knowledge , but the authenticity of the issuing authority, or shall, we now check the validity of the UN membership.
Is Shiiping and its industry a honourable profession, or is it full of ladies of the Knight? (Play on words!! hee hee!!!)


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