# Ships engines.



## shipmate17 (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi,
Not being well up on ships engines,when I search the data base,I find a lot of different sorts. ie. Alpha, B&W. Man. Sulzer.Skl etc. with out starting an argument,which is best to work on.
cheers.


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

A steamturbine!!!


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

lakercapt said:


> A steamturbine!!!


Steam turbine - I hate these newfangled inventions. Give me elastic bands anytime!!!
Seriousy, from my experience on fairly small marine diesels in the 60/70's, up to about 1500h.p.my favourite was the 4 stroke Werkspoor, can't remember the models, but they turned about 130 rpm and drove through a reduction gearbox. They were popular in the Dutch coasters of that time. Pulling pistons a piece of cake, out through the cranckcase in about 20 minutes. The only problem I can ever remember with one of those was when the drive to the attached salt water coooling pump sheared off.


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## raybnz (Sep 10, 2005)

I suppose in my case the best marine diesel was one that kept running and didnt breakdown.

On the MV Cretic we did a six month trip around the world and only had to stop the main engines once when we went thru a shoal of herring coming up the channel light ship and they in turn blocked the main coolers. Those engines were Doxford.


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## Wee John (Feb 24, 2006)

Still have fond memories of Doxfords,they just looked right. As the man said the only good one was one that did not break down, I never found one. I was never posh enough for steam turbines.


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## Les Gibson (Apr 24, 2004)

Sailed on the 'Blanchland'. one of only 3 deepsea ships Stevey Clarkes had in the 60s(The other 2 were 'Cleveland' and 'Gilsland'). She had what I believe was only the 2nd 'P' Type Doxford built. Unfortunately also the last ship built at Grays West Hartlepool before the yard closed. Had Clarke Chapman AC 3 Phase winches which would blow up with frightening regularity. A disaster at sea with engine breakdowns every few hours, and in port with exploding winches. Eventually sold for scrap with major engine problems.


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## moaf (Jun 16, 2005)

The Mirrlees Blackstones that I work with now aren't bad, but whoever said british engineering was the best needs to work on a British engine! I think B&W engines have been the easiest for access to maintenance


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## eldersuk (Oct 24, 2005)

Doxford, Doxford, Doxford, closely followed by Sulzer RD.
Let's face it, they all broke down, but Doxfords always seemed to have some sympathy for the poor buggers trying to fix them. No big crinkly castings like B&W's - none of the harshness of Sulzers. When a Doxford broke down it always seemed strangely apologetic as it gave that last sigh as it stopped.

I must be going mad!! (or senile)


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Are you confusing the last sigh with the column of thick acrid black smoke/soot that appeared from the funnel and covered everything in a 400 yd radius?

LOL(Hippy)


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## Doxfordman (Mar 29, 2005)

Well, what can I say!!......
A second best for me would be B & W - they far more accessable than Sulzers and even in some cases Doxfords. Nothing like the song of a Doxford, be it, LB, LBD, P or J type sitting on about 110 RPM and then..............


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

and then....BOOM

(cue questioning of a certain Doxfords parentage)

LOL

Ach we loved them really, certainly kept the Ginger Beers amused all trip! 
Quite a thing to watch the Juniors 'dance' on top of them!


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

Doxfords !!!!!!


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## Doxfordman (Mar 29, 2005)

Oh ye of little faith, poor old Percy Jackson would be turning in his grave!


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

moaf said:


> but whoever said british engineering was the best needs to work on a British engine!
> Echo your sentiments entirely and what about that son of a Paxman, the "Rusty Weasel". To be fair though, the Cunard Countess was re-engined with the first Warsila heavy fuel engines and became known as Smokie Joe in the Caribbean cruise circuit.


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## J Boyde (Apr 7, 2005)

I worked on Doxfords, one B and W. Number of Sulzers, Polers, two types, Nordberg plus a varierty of generators. The sulzers and the Nordbers were generly the must reliable. None the less, the Doxford was a favourate, something special about them.
Jim B


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## chaspat (Aug 26, 2005)

First trip Jnr on a B&W Four-Stroke. Spent all night in West African Ports grinding Exhaust valves. My first and last. From then on Steam.


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## K urgess (Aug 14, 2006)

Being a sparkie I think my preference would be a nice 4 legged Doxford. That 4 space 4 beat could lull anyone to sleep. Trouble was, when I got home, I couldn't sleep for weeks.

Steam turbines were too quiet and you couldn't tell you were moving without looking out the port.

Triple expansion jobs were beautiful and would take lots of punishment. Also very good when being passed by nice white liners which were downwind. Bridge to Engineroom "Please blow tubes, Chief".

I seem to remember a lot of grumbling about "bloody telescopics" on a particularly troublesome Harland & Wolff jobbie.

Sulzers just seemed to take a licking and keep on ticking. Very boring.


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## eldersuk (Oct 24, 2005)

Chaspat,

Sounds like a Paddy's 'K' boat. I was on one of their 4 strokes (Kentung) in about 1962 when a Lloyd's Surveyor in Lagos congratulated me for keeping such a clean engine room.

"How old do you reckon the ship is?" I asked. "Oh, sometime in the 1930's."
He was gobsmacked when I said 1954. Although I was prepared to admit that the plans probably originated in the 1930's.

Thumbnail Kentung just to remind you!!

Derek


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

i was reading in my local paper SHIELDS GAZETTE that they are taking the DOXFORD engine out of the MARINE& TECHNICAL college and it is going to be rebuilt at BEAMISH MUSEUM.

cheers tom


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## K urgess (Aug 14, 2006)

Ah! A single legged Doxford.
Does anyone remember when some enterprising young engineering cadets blocked the exhaust with a dustbin lid?
How far did it fly?(POP)


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## Doxfordman (Mar 29, 2005)

It appears to be agreed by general concensous that the Doxford is the engine of choice???

God rest your soul Mr Jackson!


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Sung to the tune of MacNamara's Band.

1. Oh my name is William Doxford and I come from Sunder-land 
They say my diesel engine is the finest in the land 
The pistons bang, the cranks go clang and the camshaft grinds away 
And it's the bestest engine you could hear about today 

Chorus 
Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! 
Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! Dah dah dah dah. 
Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! Dah Dah Dah - Dah
With action and reaction we'll go sailing on our way. 


2. To see our engines functionals we open up a door 
We find more cranks and crossheads than we've ever seen before 
And then we pull the pistons out to calibrate the bore 
And here for us to work on there are piston rings galore 

Chorus
Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! 
Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! Dah dah dah dah. 
Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! Dah Dah Dah - Dah
With action and reaction we'll go sailing on our way. 

3. We calculate the horsepower by scientific means 
With bits of string and paper wound on little round machines 
We measure round the diagrams the power it should tell 
The outcome's automatic but the engine's aw' ta hell 


Chorus
Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! 
Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! Dah dah dah dah. 
Dah dah dah dah Chuff! Chuff! Dah Dah Dah - Dah
With action and reaction we'll go sailing on our way. 



Just out of curiousity, has anyone ever sang that and not been legless?

LOL


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## Doxfordman (Mar 29, 2005)

Sung it many times with the actions too, and yes legless it has to be said!!!


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## Wee John (Feb 24, 2006)

Yes, did sing it stone cold. Mark you I was a first trip cadet and not allowed any even if I could aford it. Also I was not part of the engine, but mearly the Wiers L.O. pump, which the second would thump to get going between verses. I am sorry to say it but they were "Good Old Days" Lost now


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## Peter Fielding (Jul 20, 2005)

I didn't think it was possible to sing it sober, certainly not with the actions. Just like the actual engine, it requires a certain amount of lubrication.


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## chaspat (Aug 26, 2005)

Yes Derek. Maiden voyage Kaduna April '56


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## R736476 (Jul 2, 2005)

tom nicholson said:


> i was reading in my local paper SHIELDS GAZETTE that they are taking the DOXFORD engine out of the MARINE& TECHNICAL college and it is going to be rebuilt at BEAMISH MUSEUM.
> 
> cheers tom


Tom,
This is great news. However it is a real shame that we no longer build such as Doxfords and thus don't need to train our young guys on them.
Let's hope Beamish get it all together quickly along with any other Doxford memorabilia.
Beamish will be a good home to this engine. Pity the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich doesn't have a real engine in the entrance.
Anyone aware as to whether there are still Doxfords plodding the seas?

Only sailed on one Doxford - LBD 68, 6 legged from North East Marine - another name from the past.
Cheers,
Alex


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

By far its "Doxfords" for me because its the only main engines ive ever sailed with deep sea anyway and i know how to pack glands inside c/case( bet theres not many of you done that) heh heh


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Pure Sulzers for me, 7 & 9 cylinders, 76 & 90 Cm. Never experienced any problems except turbocharger casing wear. I preferred the RND - The rotary exhaust valves on the RD were a bit of a pain, the carbon blades always broke. I was always intrigued by B&W engines and the valve grinding jig. I would have liked to have sailed with a Doxford, they certainly were intriguing. I heard many stories of the Rootes Blower and people falling into them - Were they "Shaggy Dog" stories?

I doubt very much if engineers from the Bay boats have anything good to say about Sulzer's. When they reengined, they installed the engines to the original canted shafts and re utilised any "suitable" piping (including, according to scuttlebutt, the SS handrails!). Apparently, scavenge fires were a daily event!

I was talking to my father recently and he remembered that as an apprentice he was sent over to Liverpool to work on a Scott-Stills engine that had been converted to pure oil burning, I can't remember which vessel (Blue Funnel). He will never forget it because they were unloading logs and a sheaving block attached to the deck, which was being utilised to free the logs, broke free and hit a docker square in the face, killing him outright. For my father, being young and impressionable, it was quite a shock, not the least of which was seeing how they simply carted "Jimmy" off on a stretcher to an ambulance and got back on with unloading "This vessel has to sail!".


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## neil maclachlan (Aug 22, 2005)

All you Motor men speak of your Doxfords, B&Ws,Sulzers, Werkspors and the like,I sailed on a B&W double acting fourstroke,what a mess? The best engine in my opinion was the Triple Expansion Engine with Scotch Marine Boilers,which only you guys may have seen in a museum,runs like a sewing machine. The next best was the Parsons Steam turbine with Water Tube Boilers which some of you may have had the luck to sail on?


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## JET (Oct 22, 2005)

*Ships engines*

Nobody has mentioned the Napier Deltic. They were as unreliable as any of the other prime movers listed above.
The difference was that when they broke down you usually took it out, fitted the spare engine and the defective one was sent ashore for maint/repair by Others. The frequency of change outs was quite high.

I prefer a steam turbine to a diesel for reliabilty and a quiet life, although the boilers were usually the problem area. 

With reference to the Ruston being the son of Paxman, it was the other way around. Ruston and Hornsby had a controlling interest in Davey, Paxman from 1940 - 66, when they were both bought by English Electric.

Regards John


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

neil maclachlan said:


> All you Motor men speak of your Doxfords, B&Ws,Sulzers, Werkspors and the like,I sailed on a B&W double acting fourstroke,what a mess? The best engine in my opinion was the Triple Expansion Engine with Scotch Marine Boilers,which only you guys may have seen in a museum,runs like a sewing machine. The next best was the Parsons Steam turbine with Water Tube Boilers which some of you may have had the luck to sail on?


Cheers, Neil, couldn't agree with you more. Those up and downers each had their own personality - give them decent maintenance and they ran like sewing machines, well most of them! As for scotch boilers, they gave what they got. Ignore feed water treatment over the years and you had major problems. Well looked after and you had a very stable plant, however much fuel they burned. I'm afraid we were both born about fifty years too late!Regards, Jock.


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## Doxfordman (Mar 29, 2005)

I can certainly attest to "up and downers", but did not like wet fog fans. Although some kind person at the DTI handed me a piece of paper advising me that I can operate one as a CEO.
2x 30 ton Scotch boilers, the whole ship had steam auxiliaries including riciprocating Allen steam gennies, steam winches on deck - but the saving grace was the centre piece - a 5 cylinder LBD DOXFORD, complete with bgas full of crankcase water leaks, scavange fires - the whole box of dice.

Bloody marvelous machinery!


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## eldersuk (Oct 24, 2005)

Never once saw so much as a hint of a scavenge fire on a Doxford, but must admit I saw my fair share of c/case water leaks.

Derek


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## billyboy (Jul 6, 2005)

for me the best by far was the good old steam turbines with parsons reduction gearing. almost maintenence fre and clean white boiler suits everywhere. a pair of good watertube boilers attached them completed the picture. so much quieter too!
My first deisel adventures at sea were crossley's, fairly reliable. lister blackstones were ok too.
but the good old steam recip's were a joy to behold. fascinating engines they were. worked with ruston once, amazed me how it started and kept going, it was well past its scrapyard date but still ran.


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

I note there,s no mention of diesel-electric,I did a couple of months on a maiden voyage,talk about teething problems !!! the English Electric installation eng,said the eng,s were fine bolted down to a concrete floor in a power station,but not on a ship,how right he was.(MAD)


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## john g (Feb 22, 2005)

Sulzer RD there was nothing to touch them especially the Swiss built versions. How about Pielsticks ?......there's another story I'm sure there must have been some good examples somewhere !


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## ARRANMAN35 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Ships Engines*



bobby388 said:


> By far its "Doxfords" for me because its the only main engines ive ever sailed with deep sea anyway and i know how to pack glands inside c/case( bet theres not many of you done that) heh heh


Hi Bobby,
Aye many times, always a job for the night junior, despite that I would
say "Doxfords" were my choice.

Archie.


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## docgk (May 29, 2006)

I have some reminiscences of Pielstick engines..not as an engineer but they did affect my life as an R/O! I sailed in MV Mahsud in1969 ( Brocklebanks) and I recall they were said to be originally developed as 'French fleet submarine* engines'. I think they ran at 350 rpm constant speed. We had two driving a KAMEWA prop, and the vibration everywhere in the accommodation was 'noticeable'! I don't know how reliable they were overall or how difficult to work on - anyone able to comment?

* a misguided concept in the 1930's a v.fast submarine able to keep up with the fleet ( on the surface) - the British version had a single 14 inch gun and wasn't succesful!


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## K urgess (Aug 14, 2006)

Nobody seems to remember the one-legged Doxford at South Shields. Pity.
Us sparkies as did the electronics course there were introduced to marine diesel engines via that beast.
Oh yes! Scoff ye not. Some sparkies knew one end from t'other, just(EEK)
We also had to know about water curtain boilers, de-superheaters, smoke controls, generators, fridge gear, scotch boilers (lovely example at Vaux Brewery in Sunderland needed to be visited, of course), evaps, turbines, steam engines and anything else that might appear in an engine room of our acquaintance.

I have a vague memory of a chief being screamed at by a captain because of a lack of compressed starting air at a particularly delicate juncture in a docking maneouvre. 
I don't suppose this was limited to Doxfords, was it?
One could almost hear a collective sigh of relief from the engine room when the beast fired up on the first blast. The sound of a Doxford doing a few revs on air lives with me to this day. Plus those few fast revs when she fired before she settled down.
I remember these things because I was usually roped in to keep the telegraph and steering log when all the cadets were assigned to fore and aft duties.(POP)


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## neil maclachlan (Aug 22, 2005)

Hi Gang,
JUst been talking to an old friend from Scotland (He was my next door neighbour) and both served our apprenticeships together. He tells me about Skinner/Uniflow engines,built in Canada, they seem weird to me? can anyone elaborate on these weird engines especially you former lakers?
Thanks,
Neil.


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## Semaj (Sep 23, 2005)

6 Cyl Doxford just magic watching the banjo pipes going up and down.

Jim.


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## NINJA (May 8, 2006)

*Grandee Motori*

Did nobody ever sail on a FIAT GRANDEE MOTORI, 900mm bore, had a combination of turbo blowers and reciprocating air-pumps, not as good as a J type Doxford though.

Regards

Ninja.


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## Dave437 (Aug 29, 2006)

*Doxfords*

My first trip to sea as an Apprentice in 1953 was on a Doxford Economy Ship the MV London Banker, (ex Tower Hill I think) of Counties Ship Management. I remember being absolutely fascinated by the crossheads walloping up and down at (if I remember correctly) 106 RPM. Pure mechanical poetry!
Dave437


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## Tony Morris (Oct 7, 2006)

My first ship the "Bridgepool" had a Gotaverken engine which had a very nasty habit, the cylinder heads would lift when first started, with sheets of flames shooting out in all directions, the top plates was definately not the place to stand, also used to fire out locking nuts from the exhaust valve yokes at regular intervals. As the cadet I had the "joy" of grinding in the exhaust valves by hand, certainly built my shoulders up.


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## Porky (Sep 30, 2005)

Guess I'll add my bit, B&W double acting two-stroke, seemed to go all right.

Fond memories of working on them, first gennie watch in Auckland. 2nd Engineers little job for the night. Filing the ridges off the pistion ring grooves, the ridges must have been a good 3/32 inches or more. One piston I think had 6 grooves. Yeah, there I was filing all night.

Scavenge fires, two while I was on the Cymric, first one the guys down the engine room hit the screamer and had every man and his dog down there to handle it. 

Second one, was on a Christmas Eve mid Pacific. Just the three of us handled it, Taffy a Junior, the donkey greaser and me at the lofty rank of 5th. Where was the 2nd, in the bloody captains cabin having a Christmas drink. Actually never saw him until the next watch, great thing was he ups and asked if we had a scavenge fire, reason he saw lots of sparks coming out of the stack while he was drinking. I do believe I might have swore at him.

Another happy memory, a knock that developed as we left Auckland one trip. Only at low revs, high revs and it smoothed out. through the Panama it came back. So next port of call Kingston, Jamica. Pull the main bearings and started scrapping. Put it all back together and the knock was still there. I forget how many times we pulled the bearings apart, but in the ended when SS&A said sail, we'll fix it in the UK. Don't know how the shoreside lot fixed (i was on leave)it but they did. 

Main disappointment with the repairs, I missed out on one hell of a piss trip to a local hotel, we were due to go the next day. Hotel owner banned any more visits.

As I only sailed on the one ship I can't compare them with anything else, but as I said at the beginning they seemed all right.

And seeing a song in the thread, are there any more words to this one,

I sailed as a junior on the MV Petunia, and that was the start of folly.
For the seconds a dog and the chiefs on the grog and I' wishing my self far away.


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## mwebster56 (Oct 11, 2005)

Take a look at the following link
http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
All the best
Mike


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## raybnz (Sep 10, 2005)

Neil I would have to agree with you about Triple Expansion steam engines.I like nothing better when driving the WC Daldy than to be doing full ahead speed and answering the telegraph when it swings to full astern. A pull on the ahead-astern lever and the valve gear slides over,the engine slows to a stop then goes astern.

But truthfully I really liked the starting of the Doxford. Air on lever first followed instantly by the fuel lever and it was away.Those cylinder safety valves could play quite a tune if fired correctly.



neil maclachlan said:


> All you Motor men speak of your Doxfords, B&Ws,Sulzers, Werkspors and the like,I sailed on a B&W double acting fourstroke,what a mess? The best engine in my opinion was the Triple Expansion Engine with Scotch Marine Boilers,which only you guys may have seen in a museum,runs like a sewing machine. The next best was the Parsons Steam turbine with Water Tube Boilers which some of you may have had the luck to sail on?


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

Spare my memory if I am incorrect but as a decky I spent time down below with the three leg triple expansion and when going asten from ahead there was a large vertical wheel that moved the cams over and this was power assisted (it had a small steam driven piston to assist) THe Engineer gave it a fast flick and away it went. The steam valve was not touched.
Course this was 50 years ago so I might have a lapse in detail


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## Bruce Carson (Jun 14, 2005)

neil maclachlan said:


> Hi Gang,
> JUst been talking to an old friend from Scotland (He was my next door neighbour) and both served our apprenticeships together. He tells me about Skinner/Uniflow engines,built in Canada, they seem weird to me? can anyone elaborate on these weird engines especially you former lakers?
> Thanks,
> Neil.


Neil, the Skinner Engine Company was a company based in Erie, Pennsylvania and, I think, Canadian Vickers was the licensee for Canada. For Lakes use, they were mainly built in the decade after WWII and powered a small number of lakers, canallers and quite a number of the railroad cross lake car (train) ferries. In Canada, a few HallCo and CSL ships were Unaflow powered. The engines were considered economical, efficient and reliable.
I've probably mentioned the 'Badger' too many times, but she still steams across Lake Michigan, Ludington, Michigan to Manitowoc, Wisconsin, in the summer season and is Skinner Unaflow powered and coal burning.

The Badger:
http://www.carferries.com/pm/43/
http://www.ssbadger.com/
http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/may03/ferrybig051703.jpg

A Skinner Company 1953 Unaflow engine guide:
http://www.carferries.com/skinner/
As you see in the illustrations, the engines are jacketed and there's not much action to see.

There is only one other Skinner powered vessel active on the Lakes, the century old 'St. Marys Challenger', better known under its previous name, 'Southdown Challenger':
http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/stmaryschallenger.htm
http://www.ee.nmt.edu/~tubesing/personal/boats/challenger/challenger.htm

Bruce C


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## neil maclachlan (Aug 22, 2005)

Hi Bruce,
Excellent information,you explained the workings of the Marine Uniflow Engine ,and now I know what my friend was trying to explain to me. He was trying to tell me it was a steam diesel engine, and the only steam diesel engine that I was aware of was the Scott's Still Engine which I was told was an absolute headache,having known a guy who sailed on one which from his description,was'nt very successful. Thank you once more,
Neil Maclachlan.


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

lakercapt said:


> Spare my memory if I am incorrect but as a decky I spent time down below with the three leg triple expansion and when going asten from ahead there was a large vertical wheel that moved the cams over and this was power assisted (it had a small steam driven piston to assist) THe Engineer gave it a fast flick and away it went. The steam valve was not touched.
> Course this was 50 years ago so I might have a lapse in detail


Hi, lakercapt: There were 2 types of reverdsng gear. The one you refer to was known as an "all round gear". Usually you shut off steam by the lever throttle valve before changing engine direction, if you didn't you could get all sorts of fun witn relief valves blowing off. Also it put a lot of extra strain on the engine if you left steam on doing a rapid "full ahead" to 'Full astern.
The other type of reversing gear was steam hydraulic, practically always the units made by Brown, Ferguson of Edinburgh. not too sure if that company name is correct. I'msure of the "Brown" part, but "Ferguson" could be wrong. If so,I am sure someone will corret me. Regards, Jock.


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

jock paul said:


> Hi, lakercapt: There were 2 types of reverdsng gear. The one you refer to was known as an "all round gear". Usually you shut off steam by the lever throttle valve before changing engine direction, if you didn't you could get all sorts of fun witn relief valves blowing off. Also it put a lot of extra strain on the engine if you left steam on doing a rapid "full ahead" to 'Full astern.
> The other type of reversing gear was steam hydraulic, practically always the units made by Brown, Ferguson of Edinburgh. not too sure if that company name is correct. I'msure of the "Brown" part, but "Ferguson" could be wrong. If so,I am sure someone will corret me. Regards, Jock.


Jock again, I've re-read this message. The Brown, Ferguson bit is codswallop. I must have been having a brainstorm. As you probably know, Brown Ferguson are the maritime publishers. The machinery I was referring to was simply Browns steam-hydraulic reversing gear. Also relief valves would blow with this gear ,not the "allround gear". This gear would take about about 8 seconds to change direction, which was ample time for pressures to drop in the cylinders. My only excuse for this lapse is an overdose of castle lager.
cheers Jock


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

Jock
I think the company you were refferring to was Bown Brothers Engineering of Edinburgh.
They were the inventors of the steam catapult that is used in launching aircraft from aircraft carriers. Not that I think there are any under the White Ensign.


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