# P3568 New Zealand Navy question



## Powertrain (Jul 15, 2011)

The attached photo (if it works) is of the heavy-lift ship Starman off-loading a fast patrol boat, that I though was called Rotorua, number P3568 in Auckland habour. I think this was 1974. I was the resident WH Allen engineer in NZ at the time and Starman had Allen diesels that had problems with the chain driven lube-oil pumps.
P3568 was unloaded with all the TV cameras and Naval and political dignitaries in attendance. When it was in the water a CPO tried to gain entry but found all the doors and hatches were locked and caused a great search for the ship's keys - they were not found that morning and the boat had to be towed across the habour by a tug.
The number is now held by a much more modern vessel in the NZ navy - so what happened to the boat in the photo?


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## Pat Thompson (Jan 25, 2006)

Greetings

P3568 was assigned to a Lake Class Inshore Patrol Boat HMNZS Pukaki, have a look HERE in service from 1975 until 1991.


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## Powertrain (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks Pat - I just got the wrong NZ lake name!
I was rather sorry for the crew of Starman as it was not the fastest ship to travel between Southampton and Auckland.
Tony


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

Powertrain, perhaps an old post of mine re the NZ Navy woes throws some light on the history of these patrol craft

Quote 

"Perhaps the biggest miss application was the replacements for the 72 foot wooden motor launches that had valiantly but vainly patrolled our waters at a maximum of 12 knots to apprehend or ward off the multitude of Asian fishing fleets that made a meal of our fish stocks in those days.
There was intense lobbying by the likes of Whangarei Engineering (Weco) to build the boats locally but British Shipbuilder Brook Marine of Lowestoft had built a wide range of patrol craft that closely fitted the bill so instead of having the hulls designed to suit the NZ applications, plus inshore and off shore wave and swell characteristics the purse string powers economized by opting for a design already in satisfactory service with the Nigerian Navy and the smart looking craft soon arrived via heavy lift ship Starman in 1975
I received an insight into the problems with the ships in 1976 when I was the Auckland Manager for the Company that represented Brook Marine in NZ and I accompanied the Brook Chief draughtsman to a series of meetings at the dockyard to iron out various performance problems that had come to light.
Others in attendance were Allen engine representatives and ZF gearbox Co from Germany and the crux of the matter was that the gearbox bearings were fretting and failing, the prop shafts were vibrating and the engines were stressed to the extent that valve seat inserts were popping out when they attempted to steam at full speed and power. 
There was lots of general talk on the first day, lunch in the HMNZS Philomel wardroom, Cooks Chasseur red wine, (now the leading NZ red cask variety), more talk pm but as I had nothing to contribute it was back to my real job.
I re attended the final discussions about ten days later when it was agreed to carry out some testing and remedial work and to re-convene in six months time with ZF acting as hosts at their Friedrichshafen offices on the shores Lake Constantine. 

Nice work if you can get it I thought at the time.

Now this is not official but just a possibility passed on to me and my own gleaned opinion, but the Nigerian craft were an ‘economy version’ of more powerful boats built for other navies and a major saving, among others, was that they were fitted with smaller engines and the couple of metres of spare space in the engine room forward of the engines indicated that the engine room space was obviously designed for greater things. This economy plus the differences between the NZ and Nigerian Navies modus operandi really identified the possible faults in my mind.
Firstly the Nigerians operated with a lesser crew number, then that crew would have had lesser standards of on-board living than the NZ crewmen in as much as the Nigerians probably went on patrol for a few days with a cut lunch, a little fresh water and a change of clothes so to speak whereas the Kiwis needed a big refrigerator/freezer full of a healthy diet items plus a quantity of cold beer, a few extra tons of fresh water for the best of hygiene, a biggish RIB with a big outboard, scuba gear and dive bottles and all the other trimmings of a well equipped ship that brought about a laden weight that was too much to allow the craft to fully plane in its design position. The resultant wallow at full power made the prop shafts whirl and vibrate between the A-brackets and the stern gland affecting the gear box bearings while the overload on the engines caused the overheat and shed the occasional valve insert.
This short coming combined with the lack of Naval architectural input to design the hull for the typical local seas saw ongoing press reports about the un-seaworthiness of the vessels until they were scrapped in the 1990’s.
I am sure that the Navy had better plans in hand but Cabinet ruled


Bob


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## Donald McGhee (Apr 5, 2005)

When I was a Cadet Force Officer I did a trip from Wellington to Auckland on board HMNZS Taupo, P3570 one of the Lake class patrol boats, towing a target for strikemaster aircraft and undertaking weapons live firing, great fun.
They were shockers! From a sea keeping aspect. I have never been scared in all my life when at sea, this vessel scared me! We hit bad weather off the By of Plenty heading to East Cape and man did she perform! Bridge fittings flying about, the helmsman smashed his nose and the deckhead lights and linings fell down. Crew were all sick as dogs and I was very pleased to get into port.
My youngest son Callum also did a trip on her, when he was a leading cadet, three weeks or so, visited the Snares Islands, Fiordland and parts south. Had a great time and at age 15 was well accepted by the crew. He later joined the RNZN and is now a keen reservist.
They were good looking vessels, but were badly engined and too short for NZ conditions. The result of politicians who always know best, buying for the Navy. Sounds familiar!??


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## Alex Salmond (Mar 7, 2011)

Donald McGhee said:


> When I was a Cadet Force Officer I did a trip from Wellington to Auckland on board HMNZS Taupo, P3570 one of the Lake class patrol boats, towing a target for strikemaster aircraft and undertaking weapons live firing, great fun.
> They were shockers! From a sea keeping aspect. I have never been scared in all my life when at sea, this vessel scared me! We hit bad weather off the By of Plenty heading to East Cape and man did she perform! Bridge fittings flying about, the helmsman smashed his nose and the deckhead lights and linings fell down. Crew were all sick as dogs and I was very pleased to get into port.
> My youngest son Callum also did a trip on her, when he was a leading cadet, three weeks or so, visited the Snares Islands, Fiordland and parts south. Had a great time and at age 15 was well accepted by the crew. He later joined the RNZN and is now a keen reservist.
> They were good looking vessels, but were badly engined and too short for NZ conditions. The result of politicians who always know best, buying for the Navy. Sounds familiar!??


Donald,
They obviously never learn a lesson either as the Coroners inquest over the young guys tragic death on the HMNZS Canterbury,s shakedown trials in 2007 recently revealed,rushed into service too early,unsuitable equipment etc.. politicians ducking for cover now of course ,and who can forget the debacle of the Med.car ferry they bought that rolled so badly everyone was permanently seasick...Pitiful.


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## vectiscol (Oct 14, 2006)

Brooke Marine built four patrol boats for the New Zealand Navy, Pukaki, Rotoiti, Taupo and Hawea, yard nos. 398-401 respectively. They were shipped to New Zealand in pairs, and I was present at Lowestoft when Starman, also a product of Brooke Marine, hoisted the first two onboard.

Yard nos. 402 and 403 were Makurdi and Hadejia for the Nigerian Navy, of similar dimensions, approximately 32.7m L.O.A.; 30.4m L.B.P.; breadth 6.1m; depth 3.6m; draft 1.6m; displacement 135 tonnes.

Main engines were 2 x Paxman 12YJCM 12 cylinder Vee, 4-stroke diesels, which delivered 1500 bhp at 1500 rpm mcr, for a speed of 23-24 knots.

I have often wondered, too, why the New Zealand Navy bought such small patrol boats. The first time that I went on sea trials - on the Nigerian boat, Makurdi - the noise and vibration was terrible, and I was violently seasick.


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

Good to read your post Vectiscol, I was Auckland Manager of Brook Marine's NZ agent, Cable Price Engineering, during a few years away from Babcock and Wilcox and our company had been responsible for assembling all the NZ manufactured or sourced equipment for the four boats. Domestic things like bedding, china, cutlery and other items that was akin to shipping coals to Newcastle but it showed some attempt at local contribution to pacify the critics of then using a British manufacturer at a time when our fledgling ship building industry was cutting its teeth.
It was the Chief Draughtsman that flew out from Brook Marine for the Navy meetings, I forget his name but a nice chap that owned a 1930's vintage Rolls Royce and he spent his leisure time here catching up with other vintage RR owners. Perhaps you knew him?

Bob


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## Donald McGhee (Apr 5, 2005)

Alex Salmond said:


> Donald,
> They obviously never learn a lesson either as the Coroners inquest over the young guys tragic death on the HMNZS Canterbury,s shakedown trials in 2007 recently revealed,rushed into service too early,unsuitable equipment etc.. politicians ducking for cover now of course ,and who can forget the debacle of the Med.car ferry they bought that rolled so badly everyone was permanently seasick...Pitiful.


Yes Alex, the Charles Upham was not a good idea, although the Navy did make every attempt to render her task capable. My son was the Leading Radio/Radar Fitter on her as well and went to sea on her once only, which was enough. Very sad altogether and they even went to the extent of loading shipping containers filled with sand as ballast to help with the rolling problems.
I believe she is making money now as a fruit carrier somewhere and what a shame she was named after such a fine soldier .
He does, however, speak very highly of the new IPC's, which look good and perform pretty well.
Politicians are notorious for making a dog's breakfast of armed forces equipment replacement/purchases, as well as other thingsd, but that is what they do best in the knowledge they will not be held to account.
Time will tell.


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## vectiscol (Oct 14, 2006)

Spongebob - at Brooke Marine there were chief draughtsmen for ship, engineering and drawing offices, plus a chief naval architect. I do not know who had a Roller, which was rather out of my league at a time when inflation was so bad in the United Kingdom that I had been forced to sell my ageing Mini, and buy a vintage bicycle from a paper boy in order to cycle 3 miles back and forth to the shipyard, morning, lunchtime and evening! Out of curiosity I will ask some old workmates for you.


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks for that Vectiscol, It wasn't a flash Roller but a vintage one he was doing up but I guess any Roller was a bit of a status symbol in those times .

Bob


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

At a time near to NZ purchasing these boats the Royal Australian Navy had commissioned Broke Marine to build HMAS Fremantle an Attack class patrol boat of 220- tons and 42 metres length equipped with twin 16 cylinder main propulsion engines providing 6140 HP and a top speed of 30 knots and for compatibility and performance in NZ waters these were the ships that NZ should have got and is most probably what the navy actually asked for.

Our son in law was a lieutenant and navigator on Fremantle class HMAS Dubbo when she made a good will visit to Auckland in the 80's via Norfolk Island and Minerva Reef and he tells the story of meeting up with a NZ patrol craft off NZ's North Cape.
In calm seas the boats maneuvoured along side each other at reduced speed to allow crew transfers before the run down to Auckland and as the last couple of Kiwis straddled the two gunnels the Aussie boat slammed the throttles wide open and although the Kiwi boat tried likewise the last man almost split his trousers as the higher powered boat showed its mettle and led the way to Auckland to be well into the cold beer by the time the slower boat arrived.
I later met up with the then Skipper of the NZ boat, by this time he was out of the navy and into commerce and he confirmed much of the embarrassment that the Kiwis had to suffer.
Each time I drive up to Auckland and past the Paeroa Maritime Museum's canal moorings I see an old 72 foot ML craft that NZ used for fishery patrol and protection prior to the Brooke boats and I daresay that these old wooden boats did the job as well as the ill selected replacements.

Bob


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## Dave Briggs (Feb 3, 2013)

I worked at Brooke Marine at the time of the Starman http://bluestarline.org/starman/starmanam_launch.html, 

the New Zealand and Australian Patrol Craft in the Electrical D.O.

They also produce a 37m version powered by 16 cyl Paxmans.

I can remember going out on sea trials on one of these which was not a good experience.

The following link shows Starman ~ Loading R.N.Z.N. patrol boat P3569 Rotoiti (II) at Lowestoft in November 1974 for Auckland
http://bluestarline.org/starman/starmanam_ls1.html

The person with the Roller was the Chief Draughtsman in the Ship Drawing Office (I can't remember his name). He sometimes arrived to work in it . There was also the Engineering Drawing Office and Electrical Drawing Office, each with their own Chief.
Dave


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