# HF Distress Frequency?



## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

I seem to recall that in addition to 500 and 2182 there was a distress frequency in the 8 mc/s band. I used to wonder who listened out on this frequency and then realised that it was in the middle of the 8 mc/s calling band. Can anyone remember what it was?

Did lifeboat transmitters have this frequency installed? Does anyone know of instances when it was actually used in a distress incident?

W


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## gwzm (Nov 7, 2005)

From memory, 8.364 Mc/s.

Happy days,


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

It was 8364 kc/s.

Roger Cliff, RO on "Gothic" during the fire, used the lifeboat transmitter after the radio room was burned out. Mike Oldfield, a steward on the ship at the time, has posted that the distress message was picked up by a radio ham in Scandinavia. The ship was near New Zealand so that would indicate that 8364 kc/s was the frequency used.

John T


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## Naytikos (Oct 20, 2008)

At the right time of day, just after dawn as I remember, both 8 and 12 worked well into Europe from around Oz and NZ. 
I know nothing about the Gothic, but, although ZLW would probably have been in skip, VIS ought to have heard him.
???


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Possible but you have to take into account the vagaries of a hand cranked transmitter, interference, etc. I looked up the incident on the internet and couldn't find any info about the communications. 

I seem to recall that the lifeboat sets had no receiving capability on 8 mc/s so the RO wouldn't have been aware that the message was received. I'm sure it all wound up on 500 kc/s anyway.

John T

PS ZLW was MF only. Awarua (ZLB )was the NZ HF station (from 1970 at least).


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

8364 was the common calling channel on 8 MHz - in theory, it was guarded by all HF coast stations.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

8364 Khz.


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## djmorton (Apr 10, 2006)

Worldspan said:


> I seem to recall that in addition to 500 and 2182 there was a distress frequency in the 8 mc/s band. I used to wonder who listened out on this frequency and then realised that it was in the middle of the 8 mc/s calling band. Can anyone remember what it was?
> 
> Did lifeboat transmitters have this frequency installed? Does anyone know of instances when it was actually used in a distress incident?
> 
> W


Yes, as you say, it was in the middle of the 8 MHz calling band i.e.
8354 KHz - 8374 KHz, so it is 8364 KHz.


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## hawkey01 (Mar 15, 2006)

As you say 8364 was in the 8Mc's calling band and was the HF distress frequency. 

There were occasions when we had dedicated watch on that frequency when we had a long range distress situation. We did handle distress on HF at times. Generally as a relay for CG/search rescue organisations who needed assistance to raise vessels in the area. 

We would also monitor 8364 when a SUBSUNK beacon had activated.


Hawkey01


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Subsunk/Submiss beacons also used 4340 Khz which was the NATO sub distress freq.


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## johnvvc (Feb 8, 2008)

djmorton said:


> Yes, as you say, it was in the middle of the 8 MHz calling band i.e. 8354 KHz - 8374 KHz, so it is 8364 KHz.


I worked at GKL but of course that was a long time ago so I remember precious little. Was the 8 mc/s calling band only 20 kc/s wide ? Must have been pretty busy with hundreds of ships calling at any time.

And now it's all gone.

I occasionally tune an old Racal I have here to 8364 - not too sure why though... One day I'll hear something and fall off my chair !


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## Peter Eccleson (Jan 16, 2006)

Lost the main Tx and emergency Tx on shell tanker Mitra/GYYW in Indian Ocean back in 1971 when on my first trip ad Junior R/O. Used lifeboat Tx on 8364 then to exchange traffic with Colombo.
Recall having to explain why I couldn't move to a proper working frequency! Did have a seperate receiver in the radio room and chief R/O was on the other end of a Storno handheld telling me what he said!
Happy days? Maybe not.....


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Hope you didn't have a smoke out on deck while you were transmitting, Peter!

John T


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## Ancient-Mariner (Mar 30, 2009)

Back in 1999 while I was working towards obtaining a Private Pilots Licence, I decided that coming from a Merchant Navy Radio Officer background, I would endeavour to obtain a Flight Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence that was not restricted to VHF only. This purely a personal whim, as very unlikely I would ever fly a single engine aircraft fitted with HF, let alone be in a position where I would be required to use it. ie North Atlantic crossing.

This required that in addition to the normal R/T paper and practical R/T test, I would need to pass the HF written paper.

So here is a question from the HF paper (from memory): 

“State the Aeronautical HF Distress Frequency”

And the answer is ???

Cheers!

Clive

ps I never did get to fly an HF equipped aircraft...


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## Peter Eccleson (Jan 16, 2006)

trotterdotpom said:


> Hope you didn't have a smoke out on deck while you were transmitting, Peter!
> 
> John T


John,
No. It was quite an interesting first trip though! Relatively new supertanker and cracking radio room.....until you lose all power. Remember the German deep sea tug Albatros circling us like a vulture as we drifted towards the Maldives (light ship). Could gave been interesting - especially since Shell had not had the explosion on Mactra and the Kong Hakon had also blown up off Senegal.


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## Peter Eccleson (Jan 16, 2006)

Ancient-Mariner said:


> Back in 1999 while I was working towards obtaining a Private Pilots Licence, I decided that coming from a Merchant Navy Radio Officer background, I would endeavour to obtain a Flight Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence that was not restricted to VHF only. This purely a personal whim, as very unlikely I would ever fly a single engine aircraft fitted with HF, let alone be in a position where I would be required to use it. ie North Atlantic crossing.
> 
> This required that in addition to the normal R/T paper and practical R/T test, I would need to pass the HF written paper.
> 
> ...


Recently visited the flying boat museum at Foynes in Ireland. They have a mock up of a Boeing 314 flying boat. The radio station on that is quite something for the time (1936)


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Ancient-Mariner said:


> Back in 1999 while I was working towards obtaining a Private Pilots Licence, I decided that coming from a Merchant Navy Radio Officer background, I would endeavour to obtain a Flight Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence that was not restricted to VHF only. This purely a personal whim, as very unlikely I would ever fly a single engine aircraft fitted with HF, let alone be in a position where I would be required to use it. ie North Atlantic crossing.
> 
> This required that in addition to the normal R/T paper and practical R/T test, I would need to pass the HF written paper.
> 
> ...



Aeronautical on scene SAR 5680 and 3023 kHz.

They are the only HF "distress" aero channels - any HF distress will be carried out on the enroute HF channel in use. You don't QSY to a specific HF aero channel like you do in the marine service....


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Peter Eccleson said:


> John,
> No. It was quite an interesting first trip though! Relatively new supertanker and cracking radio room.....until you lose all power. Remember the German deep sea tug Albatros circling us like a vulture as we drifted towards the Maldives (light ship). Could gave been interesting - especially since Shell had not had the explosion on Mactra and the Kong Hakon had also blown up off Senegal.


I was referring to all that "intrinsically safe" stuff they use/used on tankers - wouldn't think a Lifeboat Transmitter came under that heading.

Did the tug assist in the end?

John T


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Peter, interesting but even in 'those ancient of days' how did she lose her emergency power. Seems a horrible set up (as I know it cannot have been stupid people!) that you couldn't find some way of charging the RR battery(s?) and use the Reserve/Emergency set. How come there was still a receiver working in there - a crystal set?


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

David, they didn't lose power, they lost both transmitters - one of those Murphy's Rule things, I suppose. What's an RR Battery - is it an improved AA Battery?

John T


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## hawkey01 (Mar 15, 2006)

JT,

Try RADIO ROOM.

Neville.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Duh, thanks Neville, that's what happens when you're used to "Wireless Rooms".

John T


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## Ancient-Mariner (Mar 30, 2009)

Well, the Civil Aviation Authority required answer was NOT 5680.0 kHz which was my first thought when the examination paper was thrust in front of me until I remembered that 5680.0 kHz was not a Distress frequency, but a SAR - Search and Rescue frequency. 

So that left 8364.0 kHz, but that was a CW frequency; basically the upper frequency limit of Calling Channel 5 and the lower limit of Calling Channel 6. I decided on 5680.0 kHz. 

When the examiner marked my paper, I had one wrong answer, the Aeronautical Distress frequency according to the CAA was 2182 kHz. 

I could not believe it, by definition HF is 3 MHz to 30 MHz, and 2182 kHz is Medium Frequency or MF, not HF.

Still I had passed my HF paper and received a Flight Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence that was not restricted to VHF.

With my licence safely in my possession I eventually decided to write to the Civil Aviation Authority's Chief RTF Examiner to query his interpretation of HF, especially since the CAA's recommended reading material for the HF examination paper, Ground Studies 1 by R B Underdown, used the same definitions as the ITU.

Before I wrote to the CAA, I contacted Shannon Aeradio - Shanwick, they provide HF services to Atlantic crossing aircraft. They told me that they monitored 5680 kHz and 2182 kHz by loudspeaker watch, but they certainly did not consider 2182 kHz to be HF.

The CAA's Chief RTF Examiner's answer was interesting:

"I fully understand your issues with the definitions of HF and MF, we do ask questions on those definitions but for some reason the term HF is generically used to include any frequency below 60 MHz, which is the datum used for licensing purposes. Many of the HF night time frequencies are between 2 and 3 MHz, but they are referred to as being part of the HF Communications Network. 

Throughout my military career I never understood why we referred to 225 - 299 MHz as UHF as it is VHF by definition, but the definition doesn’t suit the purpose, and Comms would either take place in the VHF band 118 - 137.975 MHz or the UHF band 225 - 400 MHz."

Guess two wrongs make a right....

Cheers!

Clive


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Was 2182 Khz not in what was known as the I F band? (Intermediate Frequency).


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## holland25 (Nov 21, 2007)

I did an operators certificate course , in Oz, with the Volunteer Coast Guard, in about 1994, so that I could use VHF. I seem to remember 2182 being referred to as HF, which I considered strange. I just assumed that things had changed since I did it for a living about 25 years previously. The other thing that they taught us was not to use romeo instead of rodger for acknowledgement.


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## Peter Eccleson (Jan 16, 2006)

trotterdotpom said:


> I was referring to all that "intrinsically safe" stuff they use/used on tankers - wouldn't think a Lifeboat Transmitter came under that heading.
> 
> Did the tug assist in the end?
> 
> John T


No, they got an aux boiler working after two days and we steamed very slowly for Muscat. Albatros followed us very closely though for a day before returning to Sri Lanka


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

King Ratt said:


> Was 2182 Khz not in what was known as the I F band? (Intermediate Frequency).


I recall 2182kc/s being referred to as an"intermediate frequency". Maybe it fizzled out because of confusion between it and what was happening inside a superheterodyne receiver.

John T 

PS I bet that will be the last time I ver write "superheterodyne" ... Oh no, I did it again!


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

Ancient-Mariner said:


> When the examiner marked my paper, I had one wrong answer, the Aeronautical Distress frequency according to the CAA was 2182 kHz.
> 
> I could not believe it, by definition HF is 3 MHz to 30 MHz, and 2182 kHz is Medium Frequency or MF, not HF.


They were full of crap, Clive. I've been a licenced pilot for 33 years, and 2182 is NEVER used as a distress channel by aircraft...

B\)


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

trotterdotpom said:


> David, they didn't lose power, they lost both transmitters - one of those Murphy's Rule things, I suppose. What's an RR Battery - is it an improved AA Battery?
> 
> John T


Sorry I coupled "cracking radio room - until you lose all power" with a cause for losing both transmitters. Now I understand it was just careless as Lady Bracknell would have said (or possibly as you say, unfortunate, like his driving I remember!).


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## Bill.B (Oct 19, 2013)

2182 was in the If band when I was at sea 70-85


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

R651400 said:


> If the Matra was the same as the 1960's Megara class ie a lot of scrap metal floating around waiting for disaster to happen just as well you were off the Maldives and not nicely tucked into the Persian Gulf and/or environs.
> Still cannot work out why a one R/O ship let alone two R/O allocation loses all radio power in the information you've provided ie the main and the emergency transmitters going QRT simultaneously?.


Lightening strike, maybe?

Perhaps the earlier generation LB sets were different to the last generation ones I sailed with in the 80s, but "ours" would run off 24v....


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies to my query about the HF distress frequency. What an interesting thread this has turned out to be!

W


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

R651400 said:


> If the Matra was the same as the 1960's Megara class ie a lot of scrap metal floating around waiting for disaster to happen just as well you were off the Maldives and not nicely tucked into the Persian Gulf and/or environs.
> Still cannot work out why a one R/O ship let alone two R/O allocation loses all radio power in the information you've provided ie the main and the emergency transmitters going QRT simultaneously?.


Probably the Main transmitter conked out and the Emergency one wore out when they were calling for a QSPs (free re-transmission by another ship) .... A bit like all those Greek ships which never handled their own traffic.

John T


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## Peter Eccleson (Jan 16, 2006)

trotterdotpom said:


> Probably the Main transmitter conked out and the Emergency one wore out when they were calling for a QSPs (free re-transmission by another ship) .... A bit like all those Greek ships which never handled their own traffic.
> 
> John T


No, it was more simple than that......the emergency Tx was faulty before we lost power. Both of us had been trying to find fault just before lost boiler and all power. Turned out to be a faulty Zener - which we didn't have a spare for anyway ..... since in that particular type/application they 'never go wrong' ( famous last words). Got it fixed in Muscat by local IMR agent.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I was just kidding, Peter.

John T

PS Zener the Warrior Princess .... Remember her well.


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## CrossedFlags (Oct 30, 2009)

*HF Lifeboat Transmitter*

Greetings W.

As others have stated 8364 kHz was the HF lifeboat frequency, situated in the middle of the HF calling band so that shore station operators would tune through it when manually scanning the band. The equipment I was familiar with was the Salvita that put out 3 watts into a 7 metre telescopic whip. Transmit only on HF. Not sure how efficient that would have been but it did work for Roger Cliff on the Gothic, as John (Trotterdotpom) stated. As I understand it ZLB did received his transmissions, but Roger would not have been aware.

Someone also mentioned 8 and 12 MHz to Europe from NZ/Aust at dawn and dusk. I used to set up skeds with GKG5 daily at 0600z while QTP in the Antipodes. Any traffic, he would send blind for 2 consecutive days and then put me on a QSL list. If QTP for a couple of weeks I would acknowledge by postcard and then officially when QTO. Always got my traffic on time.

ZLW was HF, but not 24/7. They transmitted all traffic blind on 4 hourly skeds commencing 0030z on several frequencies. Then at the end of each broadcast would listened for 5 minutes on 4/6/8/12/16/22 MHz for QSL's. They also took traffic (OBS, AMVER's, QTC's and SLT's) if anyone wished to pass any. I did frequently.

Under GMDSS 8291 kHz is the 8MHz HF R/T distress frequency, but there is no windy windy HF lifeboat transceiver. They rely these days of 406MHz beacons, SART's and VHF handheld's. No doubt other stuff will follow.

I knew Roger at Grimsby radio college (GCFE/GCOT). Lovely fellow. We used to go and watch Grimsby Town play soccer. Dunno why, they always lost.

(Ex GDVS, GFCT, GFGW, GJVL, GLMV, GQFX, GWLH, ZLC, ZLW ,ZLM).


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Welcome Crossed Flags - just realised who you are! I didn't know that Roger was at Grimsby too.

You were in at the start of the rot ... the "Mariners" aren't even in the league now. Blundell Park is a flea market specialising in Zoot Suits.

John T


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## Peter Eccleson (Jan 16, 2006)

Varley said:


> Peter, interesting but even in 'those ancient of days' how did she lose her emergency power. Seems a horrible set up (as I know it cannot have been stupid people!) that you couldn't find some way of charging the RR battery(s?) and use the Reserve/Emergency set. How come there was still a receiver working in there - a crystal set?


Dave,
Sorry didn't seem to gave answered your question.
Scratching my head and recall the IMR Em Receiver was HF with a logging scale. John Ellis was Ch R/O and he was in radio room on receiver . I was on deck linked to radio room with Storno so John could let me know what was being said.
Recall it took ages to explain why I couldn't shift from 8364 to a working frequency!! Can't remember whether we worked Colombo or one of the Indian stations. 
Interesting first trip


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## canaan (Mar 1, 2014)

8364 was circled on all the international flight plans I filed as a KC-130 navigator. It was what we had in the life rafts and what we were supposed to guard. It was also a common question I used as an instructor.


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## Worldspan (Jan 2, 2012)

On the subject of life rafts for ditched airmen, I used to subscribe to the 'Short Wave Magazine' (not sure whether it's still published) and they had a regular cartoon. One that I remember was of two airmen in a rubber dinghy with a kite aerial. One wearing headphones was saying (indignantly) to the other: "He says we've got a chirpy note!"
W


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