# Information



## joanne patricia 68

Hi

I am interested in Spanish sea merchants that were stranded in dock, during the September - October 1967 Dockers strike in Liverpool port. My interest is that I am looking for my biological father Juan. With very little information, I am aware that I may not ever find out anything at all. However, with nothing to lose, I thought I would post on here. I was born in August, 1968. My mother, Margaret, had just a very brief affair, and I would dearly love to learn more about my heritage. I would appreciate any help at all.

Kind Regards
Joanne


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## Boatman25

Aznar Line operated out of Liverpool about this time with ships called Monte Anaga and Monte Umbe, one or both could have been caught in the strike, if you contact them if they are still going perhaps they could tell you if any of there ships were caught in the strike


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## billyboy

A warm welcome aboard from the Philippines. Please enjoy all this great site has to offer


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## Pompeyfan

On behalf of the 'SN Moderating Team', welcome aboard Joanne.

Hopefuly, someone will be able to help with the information you are seeking.


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you, I will follow this up.

Kind Regards
Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you.


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## R58484956

Greetings *Joanne* and welcome to* SN*. Bon voyage.


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## Barrie Youde

Hi, Joanne,

In addition to the ships of the Aznar Line which Boatman mentions, there was also a fleet of much smaller Spanish fruit ships which traded into Harrington Dock at the same time. One which I remember was Moncho Reboredo. Another was Juanita de Charcartegui. There were many others. Can your Mother remember the name of Juan's ship? 

If so, your next port of call might be Merseyside Maritime Museum.

Good luck!


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## Barrie Youde

Another regular was the Miguelin Pombo.

There were several others.


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## joanne patricia 68

Hi Barrie

I spent most of yesterday at Maritime Museum. I managed to gather the exact dates of the Dockers strike. My next mission is to look at the shipping intelligence of all vessels that moved out, in the week following the end of the strike. A very long process ahead, to say the least. Mum was a young woman, divorced with two young children. This "affair" lasted just weeks, and I am guessing that she never realised she was pregnant, until he was gone. All of this is very embarrassing for mum, and she is very vague about it all. I am also guessing, that she probably doesn't even know the name of the shipping company that he was with, let alone his surname. Thanks for the information, I will certainly follow this up.

kind regards
Joanne


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## KEITHMAR

Joanne......WOW A very difficult task you have set yourself : Good luck with it and Bienvenido!! KEITHMAR


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## Barrie Youde

Hi, Jo!

In your profile you mention Seaforth Dock (or docks). Seaforth Dock did not open until 1973. Almost all of the Spanish trade in 1967 was in the South Docks (i.e. south of the Pier Head).

Two more Spanish ship names from my own log book at that time are San Flora and Joselin.

Best,

BY


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## joanne patricia 68

*Thank You*



Barrie Youde said:


> Hi, Jo!
> 
> In your profile you mention Seaforth Dock (or docks). Seaforth Dock did not open until 1973. Almost all of the Spanish trade in 1967 was in the South Docks (i.e. south of the Pier Head).
> 
> Two more Spanish ship names from my own log book at that time are San Flora and Joselin.
> 
> Best,
> 
> BY


Hi

WOW! 

Thanks for that. Now I know to look at ships in the south docks.

Kind regards

Joanne


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## john shaw

Joanne, this quest is obviously important to you, and is likely to involve a LOT of work.

Nobody has said this so far, so I will try to be gentle- but it was not uncommon for (some of) those of the nautical persuasion to be less than honest about their details (e.g. *name*,background eg single/married) when forming liaisons with young ladies in ports, in case of any future ramifications - so his use of "Juan" (John, the most common of names-I should know!) MAY not even be real, especially if this was a brief liaison.

I don't seek to dissuade you from your task, just to enlighten you as to the possibility that even the name _may_ not be correct.

I suspect there are many males on here who have had liaisons in foreign ports ,whilst younger,possibly unattached or lonely and far from home, and sowing their wild oats, for some of whom an action such as yours might be the worst nightmare- bringing up old memories,perhaps revealing past infidelities and rocking long relationships etc etc- so IF you are successful in an identification,please tread warily for the sake of both your own feelings and those of "Juan" and any subsequent family he has had. 

On the other hand,he might just as easily be overjoyed to hear from you, as you are doubtless a special person to put in such effort to trace him.

I hope you have success in your search, and in the eventual outcome.......


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## joanne patricia 68

john shaw said:


> Joanne, this quest is obviously important to you, and is likely to involve a LOT of work.
> 
> Nobody has said this so far, so I will try to be gentle- but it was not uncommon for (some of) those of the nautical persuasion to be less than honest about their details (e.g. *name*,background eg single/married) when forming liaisons with young ladies in ports, in case of any future ramifications - so his use of "Juan" (John, the most common of names-I should know!) MAY not even be real, especially if this was a brief liaison.
> 
> I don't seek to dissuade you from your task, just to enlighten you as to the possibility that even the name _may_ not be correc
> 
> 
> I suspect there are many males on here who have had liaisons in foreign ports ,whilst younger,possibly unattached or lonely and far from home, and sowing their wild oats, for some of whom an action such as yours might be the worst nightmare- bringing up old memories,perhaps revealing past infidelities and rocking long relationships etc etc- so IF you are successful in an identification,please tread warily for the sake of both your own feelings and those of "Juan" and any subsequent family he has had.
> 
> On the other hand,he might just as easily be overjoyed to hear from you, as you are doubtless a special person to put in such effort to trace him.
> 
> I hope you have success in your search, and in the eventual outcome.......


Hello john

Thank you for your message. I take on board your comments, and I agree with what you have to say. I will obviously, at some point, put this to rest, as I realise that I could spend the rest of my life consumed with this, and still, make no progress. I suppose, for now at least, because this is all new to me, I will continue until such a time I can face the truth, which is I probably never find him, and move on with my life.

Kind regards
Joanne


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## Barrie Youde

Hi, Joanne,

Sadly I must echo John's realistic advice - whilst continuing to wish you every success.

All that I can add at present is that without knowing the name of Juan's ship, your task appears to be well-nigh impossible.

Best,

BY


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## trotterdotpom

Another stumbling block could be the fact that Spanish seamen could often be found working on ships of other nationalities. However, you never know your luck, stranger things have happened at sea!

Do you know his surname? Have you tried Facebook or a Spanish version of Friends Re-united.

Good luck. John T.


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## joanne patricia 68

Hello john

Yes I am aware of that fact too. We do not have a surname, so pointless trying facebook, or any other social networking sites.

Regards
Joanne


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## DURANGO

I don't know if the Lloyds list is still available but if you are able to get a copy regarding the dates that you are looking for it may just give you a start with regards to the names of the ships in port at that time , you can only try if we don't try we don't do best regards .


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## DURANGO

I don't know if this will be of any help to you and I don't want to put you wrong but from what I can make out the Mersey maritime museum holds copies of the Lloyds list from 1764 up until today I may have this wrong but it,s worth a phone call or a visit best wishes and good luck in your quest .


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## joanne patricia 68

Hi

Yes, Liverpool maritime do indeed have the Lloyds list. I looked through several on Tuesday. They are quite difficult to read though, very small print. I managed to get the exact dates regarding the Dockers strike, so I plan to go back and look at the dates that shipping movement began, following commencement of work on Monday 20th October 1967. I believe, that my fathers ship was in port for most of the strike, and like others, were held up for some time. But with many vessels to look through, and just his Christian name, which may, or not be his actual name, I am not filled with any enthusiasm that I could ever make any progress with this.

Thanks for your message

Regards
Joanne


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## Barrie Youde

Hi, Joanne,

If you could just identify a ship's name (big if, I know!), your next step would be to try to find a crew list. Again, the Museum would be helpful - as the next call might be either to the ship's Liverpool agent (if still in business - and some from the 1960s are still), or otherwise the Spanish Consul in Liverpool, who could surely put you in touch with the Spanish Merchant Shipping authorities.

The big question (forgive me) seems to be - how much more can/could your Mother tell you of the events at that time? If she really can recall nothing more than you have told us here, then we are all in difficulty!

Very best,

BY


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## joanne patricia 68

Hi Barrie

Things are very complicated, and so it is very difficult for me to even speak to mum about it. This only came out in December. The news came from a relative, and finally mum confessed, however, she has changed her story twice now, and I certainly don't want to hurt her any further. She is my mum, and I want to protect her. One thing does stand true though, I most certainly do not share my siblings blue eyes, and blonde hair. I know, for absolute certain, that I look like my biological father. I can only hope, that sometime in the near future, that my mum will be able to provide me with the information that I desperately need. 

Thanks again
joanne


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## Barrie Youde

Whatever might be the outcome, it makes a very moving story!

Good luck - to you and your Ma and Pa!

B


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## oldman 80

joanne patricia 68 said:


> Hi Barrie
> 
> Things are very complicated, and so it is very difficult for me to even speak to mum about it. This only came out in December. The news came from a relative, and finally mum confessed, however, she has changed her story twice now, and I certainly don't want to hurt her any further. She is my mum, and I want to protect her. One thing does stand true though,
> 
> 
> 
> I most certainly do not share my siblings blue eyes, and blonde hair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know, for absolute certain, that I look like my biological father.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can only hope, that sometime in the near future, that my mum will be able to provide me with the information that I desperately need.
> 
> Thanks again
> joanne
Click to expand...

This could be difficult Joanne .
I note you are sure that you look like your biological father, and are different from your siblings in the colour of your eyes and your hair.
It might help if you could post a picture of yourself so we can see what you look like and see if we can recognise the likeness with your biological father.
I spent quite a bit of time in Liverpool back in those days, but not so much as in London. 
It might be beneficial to contact the missions to seamen (Flying Angel) or Apostleship of the Sea (Stella Maris) who may be able to assist, at least with the identification of ships in port at the time and perhaps even of those on board.
Another lead could be the Cavern Club where many of us hung out in those days,- if and when, we could get in the door.
Spaniards though - that makes it difficult, as Ben Line Cadets of those days would often try to turn on the charm, by introducing ourselves as Speedie Gonzalez or something like that, when the dancing was that Flamingo type stuff (Clack a clack clack - Oh leah, and we stamped our feet on the floor)- but I'm sure that was in London, not Liverpool, and certainly not in the Cavern Club. The missions perhaps, but not there. 
The "Speedie Gonzalez" Act gave us the edge on the Blue Flu guys, - at least so we reckoned.
(Sad)


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## Barrie Youde

Hi, Joanne,

You seem to know the dates of the 1967 Dock Strike in Liverpool which (from memory) lasted for about two or three weeks or so.

During that time, the actual number of Spanish ships in Liverpool (or "trapped" in Liverpool) seems unlikely to be large. My guess would be no more than five at the most - and certainly not more than ten at the very outside. Thus, if you can dig out any list of the ships which were said to in port and strike-bound, you will have narrowed down your search already.

Your use of the expression "Spanish merchant" suggests that it is a Spanish merchant ship which you need to identify, rather than the possibility (which certainly exists) of a Spanish sailor on a ship of another flag.

If invited to guess how many Spanish merchant ships were strike-bound in Liverpool at the time, my personal guess (it is nothing more) would be "three"! As to names, I have suggested some of them above. The Repeto might have been another possibility. (This is another name from my log-book for November 1967, although I'm not certain that she was a Spanish ship.)


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## Varley

R651400 said:


> Wouldn't every ship trapped in the 66 strike irrespective of flag be listed port by port somewhere?
> Seaman's Union or TUC archives perhaps?


Wouldn't Lloyd's List record arrivals and departures as well as flag? I Liverpool maybe the Echo had a Ship Movements paragraph (we still do!).


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## Duncan112

Liverpool's own "Journal of Commerce and Shipping Telegraph" may also be useful - unfortunately the repository at Colindale is closed now although the microfiche collection should be available at the British Library at St Pancras (There may be copies in the Merseyside museum but the website is very vague as to what is available)


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## john shaw

Joanne,your posting has obviously struck a chord with many on here,anxious to help you to further your search. Their focus appears to be on the search and assisting you in that aim, but not necessarily considering the effect of this news on your family situation.

Can I humbly give an outsider's view?

From your entry #23, it is apparent that the news is raw, being recent, and the effect on your Mum somewhat overpowering."Finally Mum confessed" and "she's already changed her story twice" indicate a person possibly under some stress,and "confess" suggests some sort of misdemeanour on her part.She's kept the secret 45 years,so one to two months is a very short time to adjust to the change, to the whole history of her life believed buried now being revealed- she may even also fear your disapproval , or your anger at the keeping of the secret?

Whilst I can appreciate your wish to get moving on this,a natural reaction to "shock" news, might it not be more prudent to let the dust settle a while,and see whether your Mum can then feel able to be a little more forthcoming? - assuming,of course,that she has further knowledge.

That you have set about the search so intently,so quickly, might "spook" her into clamming up on further details?Particularly if she is aware of all the activity you are undertaking in this search eg web posting. A lot of reassurance might eventually bring forth more information to work with at a later time,perhaps more fruitfully and be possibly less damaging to your Mum.....

Should all the avenues previously suggested not yield a positive result, you could-- if not unduly worried about publicity,or satisfied of no adverse effects on your Mum-- try to enlist the help of the Spanish press or TV/news agencies,readily found by a web search.Perhaps a " human interest" story might interest them sufficiently to publish/transmit your search within Spain, in the hope that "Juan" recognises himself and responds ."Long lost family" type stories often appear in local news broadcasts. IF you could interest them, it might also cut out a lot of work and time.

Again, I reiterate,I don't try to dissuade you, merely to put forth an uninvolved alternative viewpoint and other options..

Kindest wishes.


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## Barrie Youde

Love will find the right way to do it, that's for sure.


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## joanne patricia 68

Hello John

Many thanks for your message. Firstly, I would like to say, that my loyalty to my mum, in all of this, is paramount. I love her dearly, and would never hurt her in any way. Secondly, this isn't some kind of "school girl crush" on a fantasy about finding my biological father. I am a nurse, married to a surgeon, and my father in law a Doctor. For obvious reasons john, my gene pool is very important to me. Yes, this was a huge shock, and believe me,this has affected not only myself, and my mum, but my siblings too. My mums "drunk" sister at a party last summer, told my eldest half sister. And so, I have carried this around for some time. From childhood I was aware that I was different to my siblings, and yet, buried my suspicions, purely through the love that I had towards my father Mike, who tragically passed away some years ago. Believe me, I was heartbroken when he died. My mum told my sister just recently, that dad was "nagging "her for years before he died, to tell me the truth. That has been the most difficult part of all of this to accept. If by some "miracle" I manage to trace my biological father, obviously, my main concern would be to protect my family from any pain. I feel "overwhelmed" by all the lovely messages I have received on here, and I have started a journal, adding all the information that you guys have provided to me. I plan my second visit to Liverpool maritime, week after next. So PLEASE, anything you feel that could help me, then please continue to support me.

Kind regards
Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you so much for your support. Please continue to assist me in any way you can.

Kind regards
Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you Barrie.


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## joanne patricia 68

Hi,

Thank you for your time. Liverpool Maritime, does indeed, hold copies of Lloyds register. I plan a second visit in two weeks time, and will explore all the information that I have gathered from this forum.

Kind regards
Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you for your support. Please continue to assist in any way you can.

Kind regards
joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you Barrie.


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you for your time.

Joanne


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## AlbieR

Hi Joanne, 

Your quest has certainly touched a lot of people, myself included. I have done a quick search and if you go to *http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/onlinelists/GB 0136 B-LSL.pdf* you will find a pdf "National Museums Liverpool" "MARITIME ARCHIVES & LIBRARY" on page 5 there is reference to "Handwritten Monthly Lists of Ships and Docks 1963-1982" If you print page 5 out and present it to the Museum you may get a list of ships in port for your required date. I hope this is of some help to you, I will have another search around soon.

AlbieR


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## joanne patricia 68

The Liverpool Dockers strike, in 1967, lasted for six weeks.

Regards
Joanne.


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you.


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## joanne patricia 68

Hi Albie,

Thank you so much. I am taking notes daily, and intend another visit to Liverpool Maritime, week after next.

I am overwhelmed with all the support from this forum.

Bless you,
Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you. Please continue to support me.

Kind regards
Joanne


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## oldman 80

joanne patricia 68 said:


> The Liverpool Dockers strike, in 1967, lasted for six weeks.
> 
> Regards
> Joanne.


Good Lord - I believe that is right.
It gets a little confusing as if my memory serves me correctly that six weeks is about the same as the seamens strike of around the same era - probably 1966 though - I think.
I'm sorry to hear of that drunken relative who let the "cat out of the bag" so to speak. As a Denholm Director once said - there is only one thing worse than a drunk, and that is a clumsy one.
I still believe some pastoral assistance may be a very good approach, and as someone suggested it might best be gently applied to your mother.
At the end of the day however it really doesn't matter, - unless you are unhappy, of course. It was the swinging sixties after all,( and they were). Liverpool was at the heart of it all, if not through The Cavern Club alone. The place was just jumping, although by 1967 a little bit less so than in previous years, as those infamous, and truly magnificent Liverpool Boys were playing in Hamburg at the time, if my memory serves me correctly. 
Even so, The Cavern was still a "hot spot" and generally packed to the brim every night. People were just swept off their feet, a sort of Liverpool "hypnosis," - if you like. All kind of things happened in there.
At least, that's how I recall it. We experienced the times of our lives in those days - we didn't have much, but were happy to be in Liverpool - it was a magic place in those days. "_*Just think about the Music*_" - it explains it all I suppose.
(Thumb)
*Edit*:- I have mixed memories of Liverpool in the 60's - most of them just brilliant (even the football) - but I am reminded also that I was in Liverpool on the day they *shot J.F.K.*
*BUT TO LIVERPOOL*, my generation must say *"Thank you for the Music" - it was great.
*
*Edit No.2*. And as a tribute to a very fine lady from Sweden, I should add, what *John Bull* at Gothenburgs "White Corner" (The Piano Maestro) would play as we moved into the 1970's, :- " I AM THE MUSIC MAN - and I can play the ?????????????????????????? (its your choice). Another wonderful experience - so it was (She was a "real lady", - made of steel - a very fine OBO indeed.) Malky will confirm that , I believe, if he is still around.


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## AlbieR

Hi Joanne,

Trawling the internet I have come across this page *http://www.liverpoolships.org/liverpool_ships.html*. Whoever it is seems pretty knowledgeable about Liverpool shipping so it may be worth sending him an email, there is a contact email address on the page.

Good luck
Albie


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## oldman 80

Just in case you should miss them Joanne, I have added 2 edits to #45.
Please be guided accordingly.
Best of luck.


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## joanne patricia 68

Thanks Albie.


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## Barrie Youde

The most helpful pointer so far seems to be Albie's suggestion at #40.

The Journal of Commerce certainly listed ships which were expected; and the Liverpool Echo listed ship movements, too, although they were mainly of the ships of the Liverpool liner companies around the whole world and did not generally include the Spanish fruit ships (save possibly the Monte-ships of Aznar Line). The Journal also listed dates for receiving cargo (for loading) and expected dates of sailing. I don't recall (although I might well be wrong) that either the Journal or the Echo, for all their listings, listed Ships in Port.

Seems that I was wrong in my guesstimate of the length of the strike. Joanne, what dates do you have for its start and finish?


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## Barrie Youde

A thought.

Joanne, if you were to relate to your Mum the level of enthusiasm which your story has generated in the maritime community here, it might just prompt her to remember a little more? And to tell you a little more? The chaps who are responding here are (at a guess) about the same age as your Mother and were at or very near to the locus-in-quo at the relevant time. We all remember it all with great happiness (which is why we pour out our own reminiscences); and you and your Mother clearly give each other much happiness, too! Let it roll!!

At this stage of events (i.e. after such a passage of time) it is difficult to see that the outcome of your search could be anything other than a happy one.


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## joanne patricia 68

Hi Barrie

Yes, from looking through the Liverpool echo at Maritime last week, it would appear that the strike began on the 18th September, and ended on the 30th October. I also looked through the Lloyds register, (shipping intelligence). They are very difficult to read. My plan for next time is to look at the shipping movements in the days that followed the end of the strike. There is a lot of work for me to do, and I will certainly follow up the information you have sent to me. And of course, will keep you all posted of any progress. Thank you so much for your help and support so far.

Best wishes
Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Barrie

My mum would KILL ME if she knew what I was up to... HAHA


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## joanne patricia 68

I am off out now to celebrate my sisters birthday!!! OVER AND OUT!!!


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## Barrie Youde

#55

Hope your Mum is there! Tell her that we are all rooting for her!! Never in a thousand years would she kill you!!!


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## Barrie Youde

THE LASS WHO LOVED A SAILOR

The Lass who loved a Sailor in the year of Sixty-Seven
Had every human virtue which deserves a place in Heaven.
Discretion in abundance she displayed throughout her life,
As Mother of a Child, if not in wedlock : nor sea-wife.

The Child grew up in happiness. That much, it seems is clear;
Which brings us to the point of what we now are doing here?
The Child now seeks her Father, known alone as Don Juan,
But more we cannot say, for we know nothing of the man:

Except he was a Spaniard and belonging to a ship
At the time he loved the Mother in their brief relationship.
Proud would he be to know that he remains so well remembered
From that long year ago, which he so happily Novembered!

What ship was his? The Joselin? The Moncho Reboredo?
San Flora, or some other? ‘Twas a romance by tornado!
A whirlwind, so it seems , was blowing through the South-end Docks,
Which bore its healthy fruit and caused the cradle loving rocks!

Wherefore art thou, Don Juan? Might yet you hear the call?
Your flesh and blood now seeks you out. Love conquers. Conquers all!
And let there be rejoicing when the Child at last is met –
As life holds its surprises, this should be your best one yet!

The Lass who loved a Sailor in the year of Sixty-Seven
Has every human virtue which deserves a place in Heaven.
And so, perhaps does Don Juan. As well the Child, for sure.
We can but pray for knowledge and for Peace, for Evermore.

BY
01.02.2014


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## joanne patricia 68

Barrie - Wow. What an amazing take on the situation and it truly captures what was then no less than a happy and carefree time in the city of Liverpool. Your poem takes into consideration ALL parties involved in this tricky situation and judges none. I only wish I could share this with my Mother but, as you know, this is not possible. You would have to know her personally to see why I'm not hopeful (and almost certain in fact) she will ever want to even try to remember, let alone come up with any useful information that could aid in my search. What I have done is shared it with my Sister and my Niece who agree with me this is a lovely sentiment and i'm thankful to you for writing this.
I'm just grateful this site has put me in touch with so many genuine and sincere people to wish me well even if there is nothing else they can do to help. At this stage, I am still wondering how I will ever be able to rest if I never can trace the man who is my Father.
"As life holds its surprises, this should be your best one yet!" - this is what I hope for


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## 40907

Barrie, you're a star! (Applause) (Thumb)


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you.


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## joanne patricia 68

Hi

I have uploaded a picture on my profile, not sure if it will help in any way. Thank you for your support.

Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Thank you for your kind message.

Joanne.


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## Binnacle

Joanne,
It's only now that I have read this thread right through. I am very surprised that no person has suggested the obvious, although all are well intentioned. All ships entering harbour limits are charged harbour dues, these records are meticulously kept as far as dates of payments, arrival and departure etc are concerned, and tend to be stored for record purposes. What you want is a friendly clerk in the Mersey Harbour Board (or whatever title it goes under) who is prepared to go down to the cellar archives and search. These records may even be digitised and available on computer. Phone around and hopefully someone will come up with answers. If you have no joy there, HM Customs (Waterguard) keep records of all ship arrivals etc. The information will definitely be held there, the problem is getting some caring person to dig deep. I wish you well in your quest.


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## joanne patricia 68

hello, and good evening.

Since joining this forum, I have received so many encouraging and supportive messages, from very genuine people wanting to help me. So far, I have managed to learn the exact dates of the Liverpool Dockers strike, 1967. This is the exact time that my lovely mum met a Spanish seafarer and embarked on a relationship lasting just weeks. As a result of this brief liaison, I was conceived. And only after forty five years, did I learn the truth. As a medical person, it is of great important to me, to learn about my heritage, and my gene pool. My next stage is to return to Liverpool Maritime, and look at all the ships/vessels that were "stranded" in port, as a result of the strike. Obviously, I am aware that my Father may not have been necessarily sailing with a Spanish liner, but, at least, this is a starting point to build upon. I welcome ALL information from you wonderful people on here, and count on you all for your continued support.

Many Thanks
Joanne


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## Barrie Youde

#63

Hi, Binnacle,

You are wholly right that records (meticulous records, too) will have been made at the time. The realistic problem is that so much has happened in the intervening forty-five years; and so many records are known not to have survived those happenings.

The first highly significant happening was the closure of the South Docks and Brunswick Locks in 1972. (Whither the Brunswick Dockmaster's records and log-books?) The next was in the late 1980s/early 90s when the Mersey Docks & Harbour Company vacated the magnificent Port of Liverpool Building at the Pier Head and moved downstream to Seaforth. A further major development was later when MD &HC was itself taken over by Peel Ports. How many records from that period have survived and where they might now be stored (if at all) is not a thing which (as far as I know) is in general public knowledge. The sad picture seems to be that the records available for public inspection are, more generally, those held at the Maritime Museum up to (about) 1960. These seem to be infinitely better maintained (or at least more accessible) than any records after that date.


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## oldman 80

Barrie Youde:-

Somebody said "You are a Star". Re #57
I say, you are much more than that, YOU ARE A SENSATION.
Yet again we see what Liverpool has to offer - after so many years.
Then it was The Beetles - Today it is you.
Clearly you have made a love child, very very happy indeed.
Now isn't that just Magic.
(Applause)


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## jmcg

With every best wish for a successful voyage of discovery. A moving story indeed .

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## oldman 80

jmcg said:


> With every best wish for a successful voyage of discovery. A moving story indeed .
> 
> BW
> 
> J(Gleam)(Gleam)


Perhaps even, the best thread on the net.
Its' Sunday today, I thought it was Monday, so I lost a day as a result of it, or alternatively gained one ?
In that other place I think you may have been right on this occasion.
Quote from:- *As You Like It*

*All the world's a stage*_,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.
*At first, the infant*,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school.
*And then the lover*,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow.
* Then a soldier*,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth.
*And then the justice*,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part.
*The sixth age shifts*
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound.
*Last scene of all*,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
_
Unquote

Amazingly true - even today - centuries later,
when you come to think of it.
(*))


----------



## ben27

good day barrie youlde.sm.today 00:20 re:information.#57.a fine piece of poetry.the lass who loved a sailor.thank you for posting,regards ben27


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## oldman 80

joanne patricia 68 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have uploaded a picture on my profile, not sure if it will help in any way. Thank you for your support.
> 
> Joanne


COOL - I think that's the modern terminology.
You look happy and I can see a touch of Flamenco in your face.
Clack a clack clack - Oh Leah.
Indeed -Spanish - he may be.
Have Fun.
Edit:- Watch out for "Speedie" - there are plenty of them I'm sure.
(Eats)


----------



## Barrie Youde

With warm thanks for very kind words directed towards me, the stars of this story are Joanne and her Mum - and nobody else, as yet!

I'm sure that Binnacle is right - and that enquiries at HM Customs would be well worth a try.

My query would be to ask for the names of foreign-trading vessels in the South Docks, Sept-Nov 1967. Who knows what information that might yield?


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Good Morning All,

Reading through all of your comments has most certainly given me a fine start to a busy day ahead. I am working this afternoon, and I can do so with a smile on my face. Thank you all for your interest, and for all of your helpful advice, (I am adding all of your comments in to my journal, and have started a "To do "list, which is getting bigger by the hour. Ha Ha, Still, im not complaining. A MASSIVE thank you to Barrie for the beautiful, and moving poem, that he posted yesterday. I am planning to have it printed and framed. If nothing else, I will always be reminded that there are so many lovely, caring and genuine people in this world.

God bless you ALL.
Joanne


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## R58484956

I must say these Spanish seaman really make some very attractive offsprings.


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## Barrie Youde

Hear! Hear!


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## Barrie Youde

#72

Hi, Joanne,

You will surely have learned by now that there are more good 'uns around than there are bad? By a long way.


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## joanne patricia 68

I do now Barrie. Thank you.


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## Robert Hilton

I have read this thread with fascination and wish you the best of luck. You're a brave lass.


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## tsell

Joanne, 
I have just read through this thread, including Barrie's wonderful poem and I went to your profile and viewed your photograph. With your magnificent countenance, I think an approach to a Spanish TV station, telling them your story, would capture their attention as it has ours. All journalists love a good human interest story and the Spanish romanticism is renowned. A good journalist would soon unearth much of what you are seeking, given the resources available to them.
Just a thought,
Taff


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## Barrie Youde

Difficult to see how anybody with an ounce of humanity (or Christian charity)could disapprove the story as told by Joanne in the last few days.


----------



## Barrie Youde

In any event, a vital element at present seems to be whether or not Joanne's Mum might be willing to give any further information.

If she could identify the ship's name, the rest of the task might be straightforward.

Without knowing the ship's name, the task is well-nigh impossible.

Am puzzled by the reference to Seaforth, which is at some distance from the South Docks and the centre of the Spanish Fruit Trade in 1967. Construction of Seaforth Dock started in about 1967; but it accepted no cargo until late '72 (I think). The Dock was officially opened by Princess Anne on board a Blue Star ship in 1973.

If Seaforth is at all relevant in any way, any search in the South Docks might well be misleading.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Good Morning Sir,

Thank you for your posts. I agree with your concerns totally. As each day passes, I am filled with many emotions as to where to go with this. Do I put my own feelings to one side for the sake of others, or do I go public with this and potentially damage peoples lives. Do I want to hurt others? NO. Do I want to put all of this behind me and move on with my life? NO. So there are no easy answers, and ultimately I have to make that decision.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Good morning Barrie,

I hope you don't find this request too forthcoming. We don't live too far away, so im wondering if you would have the time to meet me at Liverpool Maritime, when you have a free day. It would be really useful In terms of asking for the correct information etc. And anyway, I would like to thank you personally for the beautiful poem.

Joanne


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## Barrie Youde

Hi, Joanne,

What a delightful suggestion!

I will send you a PM.

B


----------



## Robert Hilton

tsell said:


> Joanne,
> I have just read through this thread, including Barrie's wonderful poem and I went to your profile and viewed your photograph. With your magnificent countenance, I think an approach to a Spanish TV station, telling them your story, would capture their attention as it has ours. All journalists love a good human interest story and the Spanish romanticism is renowned. A good journalist would soon unearth much of what you are seeking, given the resources available to them.
> Just a thought,
> Taff


Great idea, but could produce a choice of putative fathers. A thought: how many of us are wondering about possible unknown offspring around the world?


----------



## Robert Hilton

R651400 said:


> Being a pragmatist and not a poet was thinking more of the impact on Juan and his patriarchal life in Spain as probably now a contented grandfather.


My guess is that one in ten might be slightly embarrassed if he has set himself up as a pillar of society. The rest would be tickled pink.


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## R58484956

Barrie If any vacancies on the coach count me in. LOL


----------



## Barrie Youde

Tough!

Sold out!


----------



## Binnacle

When I suggested avenues of search I presumed you had contacted the Salvation Army Tracing Service, in case you haven't here is the application form - they have certain ground rules. 

http://www.salvationarmy.org.uk/uki/makeanapplication.

Hopefully, the TV world of unscrupulous producers/researchers would only be a last resort. Family tears push up the ratings.


----------



## chadburn

joanne patricia 68 said:


> Good Morning Sir,
> 
> Thank you for your posts. I agree with your concerns totally. As each day passes, I am filled with many emotions as to where to go with this. Do I put my own feelings to one side for the sake of others, or do I go public with this and potentially damage peoples lives. Do I want to hurt others? NO. Do I want to put all of this behind me and move on with my life? NO. So there are no easy answers, and ultimately I have to make that decision.


Unless there is a pressing medical reason then in my view I would leave it be for the moment, if your Mother had wanted you to know she would have sat you down and told you by now even after it all came to light in December. For the matter to come to light others in the Family Circle must know what happened but may not wish to upset your Mother by going into details. When the situation changes either by your Mother telling you or God forbid she passes away then that is the time to start to make further enquiries. As it is and for the reasons given by other members you have an uphill task which may not end in a happy result for yourself or for the Father you are looking for. The final decision is yours of course, but it could be an emotional minefield for you and others and there could be casualties.


----------



## jmcg

As Chad has indicated - yes, very often voyages carried on the waves of emotion lead to casualties. Notwithstanding, this is a powerful emotion - one that if we were faced with we would indeed address and decide. 

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Of course, why is why we have paternity testing in this wonderful advanced world we live in.


----------



## Robert Hilton

I suspect you intend to go for it if you can. I'm sure you will tread carefully.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Hello, and good evening to you.

My mum back in 1967, had a very brief affair with a Spanish seafarer. It was not until after he had left Liverpool, did she realise she was pregnant. In order to protect her own shame from all of this, my mum, chose to withhold the truth for forty five years, until, when she could no longer hide away, and only after I had been told by a family member, did she confess to me. Even now, my mum who I love dearly, continues to protect herself from any kind of questions, in her words "it was a long time ago" so why do you need answers?. Well, throughout my childhood I have at several stages in my life, had many doubts, and unanswered questions. I am not a person who lives in the past, who dwells on past insecurities, or who embraces pity or sympathy from people. I am a strong willed young woman, and have many achievements. My biological father, Juan, may be either ecstatic to hear from me, run from the shame, and loathe me for finding him, or has passed away without knowing anything about me. There is only two outcomes in all of this, a happy ending, or a disaster. Given that life is full of unexpected surprises, and risks, the only outcome in all of this, is the risk taken...


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Thank you for your message.

Joanne


----------



## King Ratt

Hello Joanne Patricia 68. Both my wife ( she also nurses) and I have been following this thread and we wish you well in your quest. Let us hope you have a swift and happy resolution to it.


----------



## oldman 80

joanne patricia 68 said:


> Hello, and good evening to you.
> 
> My mum back in 1967, had a very brief affair with a Spanish seafarer. It was not until after he had left Liverpool, did she realise she was pregnant. In order to protect her own shame from all of this, my mum, chose to withhold the truth for forty five years, until, when she could no longer hide away, and only after I had been told by a family member, did she confess to me. Even now, my mum who I love dearly, continues to protect herself from any kind of questions, in her words "it was a long time ago" so why do you need answers?. Well, throughout my childhood I have at several stages in my life, had many doubts, and unanswered questions. I am not a person who lives in the past, who dwells on past insecurities, or who embraces pity or sympathy from people. I am a strong willed young woman, and have many achievements. My biological father, Juan, may be either ecstatic to hear from me, run from the shame, and loathe me for finding him, or has passed away without knowing anything about me. There is only two outcomes in all of this, a happy ending, or a disaster. Given that life is full of unexpected surprises, and risks, the only outcome in all of this, is the risk taken...


It may be easier said than done, but why bother with the quest ?
With your looks there are more important things to think about.
(If only I were 35 years younger )
If you're mum looked like you in those days, and in Liverpool no less- it was almost inevitable I suggest - so learn from it , laugh at it, be happy and be careful.
_"Clack a Clack Clack" - oh lay_. (Its not my teeth rattling either - more likely they fell on the floor.)
(Whaaa)


----------



## oldman 80

Binnacle said:


> When I suggested avenues of search I presumed you had contacted the
> 
> 
> 
> Salvation Army
> 
> 
> 
> Tracing Service, in case you haven't here is the application form - they have certain ground rules.
> 
> http://www.salvationarmy.org.uk/uki/makeanapplication.
> 
> Hopefully, the TV world of unscrupulous producers/researchers would only be a last resort. Family tears push up the ratings.
Click to expand...

I'd give that one a miss.
They are in absolute utter total disgrace down here - You would not believe how much so.
I doubt they'll ever recover, and all charities in general will suffer.
What they were doing with donations !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just Horrendous.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Thank you for your kind message.

Regards
Joanne


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## oldman 80

Life is short, it is also fragile.
It is for living - not digging up unknown skeletons from the past.
Go forward, enjoy it, live it to the full, whilst you can.


----------



## Barrie Youde

It is now quite clear that the Lass who Loved a Sailor not only became the Mother but also remains (as is her prerogative) the Matriarche and Dominatrix of the piece.

Unless and until Joanne's Mum might elect to speak further, there is nothing that the Salvation Army, nor Mersey Docks nor HM Customs nor all the King's Horses nor all the King's Men can realistically do to advance the search for the Father.

The only thing that the rest of us can do is to continue to wish Joanne well. As Robert points out, most men (the vast majority, I'd guess) on learning that they might have unknown offspring of whom they could be proud (and might be making strenuous efforts to find them) would be tickled pink!


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## Barrie Youde

#105

Many thanks for your concern.

You appear not to appreciate that nothing can proceed at present, in any event.


----------



## Barrie Youde

Of course it would be both wise and proper to proceed with delicacy and diplomacy. It usually is.

But on present information (or lack thereof) it would be naive in the extreme to imagine that any progress could be made at all.


----------



## AlbieR

Barrie Youde said:


> #105
> 
> Many thanks for your concern.
> 
> You appear not to appreciate that nothing can proceed at present, in any event.


I agree with you Barrie, a truely daunting task. See *http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...n9AAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vaMMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2838,3308575 * Quoting from it " The Port Employers Association said 99 ships were idle". Still stranger things have happened.
Albie


----------



## trotterdotpom

Barrie Youde said:


> Of course it would be both wise and proper to proceed with delicacy and diplomacy. It usually is....


Good one from the Minister of Tact!

The whole exercise is fraught with danger. I know someone who was ecstatic when he found his birth mother. When he met her it was a disaster. Bad news, but if he hadn't tried ....?

John T

PS Sorry Barrie, I was addressing R65's post #107, not yours.


----------



## Duncan112

Would it be possible for Joanne to have a DNA test to determine her paternal ancestry - this would certainly determine if her father is Spanish (as opposed to Spanish speaking) and possibly even an areas of Spain. Whilst most of the firms offering this service on the net promise the earth I feel it would be prudent to discuss the accuracy of such a test with an unbiased professional to determine which type of test to opt for - possibly someone with a background in forensic medicine? Best of luck whatever you decide.


----------



## Robert Hilton

R651400 said:


> Your's and RH's naivety on things Spanish/Latin disturb me.
> Crest of a wave and euphoria all being well but think of the impact it will have.
> There is sage advice presently on this thread to Joanne which I think she has to consider but by all means continue down the maritime road and take it from there.


Parece que sabes mucho de los Latinos. No eres el unico. Seguro que Joanne va a proceder con cuidado.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

THANKS ALBIE,

That certainly ties in with what I had read in the Liverpool Echo at maritime two weeks ago. There is a Lloyds shipping list there that will give me the name of the 91 ships that were idle during the strike.

Best wishes
Joanne


----------



## R58484956

RH #112 This site is an English only website, so that everyone understands what is said. Please keep it that way.


----------



## AlbieR

joanne patricia 68 said:


> THANKS ALBIE,
> 
> That certainly ties in with what I had read in the Liverpool Echo at maritime two weeks ago. There is a Lloyds shipping list there that will give me the name of the 91 ships that were idle during the strike.
> 
> Best wishes
> Joanne


Joanne,

I went to see the film Philomena (Judy Dench, Steve Coogan) last night in Campbeltown, if you need a bit of inspiration then go and see it. I couldn't help but think of you as I watched it, different cir***stances but proof that perserverance wins.

Best wishes
Albie


----------



## Barrie Youde

#113

Hi, Joanne,

It's at this point that the difficulty arises.

For anybody familiar with the Port of Liverpool in 1967, it should not be difficult to identify (by name) the Spanish ships in that list of 91.

It would surprising if they might amount to more than 10 at the very, very outside. If you could point me towards a copy of that list I would be pleased to try to identify those relatively few ships relevant to your search.

If then your Mother might be ready and/or willing and/or able to remember the name of Juan's ship out of the few names then suggested to her, then that would be a significant step forward. It would be rather like a police identification parade. On the same basis, if no initial identification is made, then no progress can be made at all. 

I know that you understand all of this and apologise for my repetition!

PS. On re-reading your post, I now understand that a copy of the list of 91 strike-bound ships is available at the Maritime Museum. If anybody might be able to post a copy here in SN or email me a copy, please let me know.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Hi Albie

Thank you for your message. I will make it my business to watch this movie.

Best wishes
Joanne.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

good evening Barrie,

I am planning to attend the Liverpool Maritime again next Tuesday. Once I get that information, I will be in touch.

Many Thanks
Joanne.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#118

Good-oh!

B


----------



## oldman 80

joanne patricia 68 said:


> THANKS ALBIE,
> 
> That certainly ties in with what I had read in the Liverpool Echo at maritime two weeks ago. There is a Lloyds shipping list there that will give me the name of the 91 ships that were idle during the strike.
> 
> Best wishes
> Joanne


Well if you are heart set on going ahead with the quest, then no one should stand in your road, and all should wish you well.
I still feel that there are better things for a beautiful lass like yourself to be doing and you may well unearth a monstrous "can of worms". Indeed, in time, you may compromise those beautiful looks as a result of the search/investigation and the pressures it will likely impose upon you, especially if the media become involved, as some have suggested.
Clearly your mum did not want you to know, and clearly in your own words, you love your mum. I suggest your mum did not want you to know *for very good reason* - that is obvious, and it is also clear you and she get on well.
*I urge you not to compromise that happy situation, all because of some outburst by some drunken relative, who may even have their own hidden agenda.
*Besides, 91 idle ships, is of little relevance, as you are in fact going to be looking for hundreds of crew members, few of whom would be "inactive", (considering the Liverpool of those days), then trying to narrow it down to one who was clearly very active at the time, and has seemingly just faded away, never to take further interest in your mother again. That doesn't spell " *love *" to me, at least looking at it from his side of the equation. Of course, I could be wrong though. 
However, in looking at your picture and the beauty therein contained,
something wonderful has come of it , which all of us can see for ourselves.
My advice remains the same, be thankful for the life given to you, along with the beauty you clearly possess, accept it for what it is, and get on with living your life, and leave the "skeletons" alone.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#120

"Hundreds of crew members"? This seems highly unlikely because:-

1. If the search cannot be narrowed down to one named and identified ship, then the search becomes hopelessly unrealistic - as the scope of manpower would remain possibly at more than a thousand, rather than merely hundreds.

2. If it can be narrowed to one ship (which has not happened yet), then the ship is likely to be a Spanish fruit-trader of perhaps 1,000 tons gross with a crew of perhaps 15 men. If the ship (if and when identified by Joanne's mother and by nobody else) might turn out to be a passenger-carrying Monte-boat, then the crew would of course be larger - but still at about 60 or 70, I'd guess. The crew of a Blue Funnel passenger carrying H-boat was 72.

3. Of the 15 possible men (assuming that the ship was an ordinary fruit-trader of 1,000 tons), some might be ruled out as too young and some as unrealistically old. How many of the remainder might then be named Juan?


----------



## Binnacle

oldman 80 said:


> Well if you are heart set on going ahead with the quest, then no one should stand in your road, and all should wish you well.
> I still feel that there are better things for a beautiful lass like yourself to be doing and you may well unearth a monstrous "can of worms". Indeed,
> My advice remains the same, be thankful for the life given to you, along with the beauty you clearly possess, accept it for what it is, and get on with living your life, and leave the "skeletons" alone.


With respect, as I understand it, Joanne came on this site merely to ask for assistance from seafarers to enable her to trace her father, no more no less. None of us know the soul searching she has done before making her decision, so most of us have confined our responses to that question. In my opinion your repeated posts suggesting "she should get on with her life" are less than helpful.
If we are unable to help at least we can desist from causing hurt.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#122

I agree entirely.

For what it might be worth, my own view is that any heart-searching is for Joanne and her Mother, between themselves.

'tain't for us - and it would be highly presumptious to think that it might be.


----------



## Robert Hilton

R58484956 said:


> RH #112 This site is an English only website, so that everyone understands what is said. Please keep it that way.


Dinna fash yersel'. I'll watch ma lingo and confuse them that dinna ken the Queen's English.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Albie

I do take on board your comments, and I understand your views. I am heartbroken because of the impact this has had on both myself, and my mother. How on earth do we continue with our lives, given the grand scale of dishonesty for all these years. I wish I could just live my life and discount what's happened. But the reality of all of this, is that I cant, neither can my mum. Instead, my mum chooses to continue as if nothing has happened, and me, I daren't cross her. What kind of relationship is that?. At this point, I am indecisive as to whether to continue or not. I had a father, and he tragically passed away some years ago. Only He wanted me to know the truth, I understand that now. Whatever I decide to do, I will keep you all posted.

Many thanks to EVERYONE for all your support on this forum.

Joanne


----------



## joanne patricia 68

#123

Thank you Barrie.


----------



## AlbieR

Hi Joanne,

I think you are confusing my posts with others, I offer only support for your quest and have never expressed any views, although some other people's posts have been judgemental. I just want to make clear that I fully support your actions and the need to find answers.

Best wishes
Albie


----------



## oldman 80

joanne patricia 68 said:


> Albie
> 
> I do take on board your comments, and I understand your views. I am heartbroken because of the impact this has had on both myself, and my mother. How on earth do we continue with our lives, given the grand scale of dishonesty for all these years. I wish I could just live my life and discount what's happened. But the reality of all of this, is that I cant, neither can my mum. Instead, my mum chooses to continue as if nothing has happened, and me, I daren't cross her. What kind of relationship is that?. At this point, I am indecisive as to whether to continue or not. I had a father, and he tragically passed away some years ago. Only He wanted me to know the truth, I understand that now. Whatever I decide to do, I will keep you all posted.
> 
> Many thanks to EVERYONE for all your support on this forum.
> 
> Joanne


Well I don't know what to suggest anymore ?
It's your decision - no one else's.
Remember also you did say you loved your mother in one posting, and in another, you said _Your Mother Would Kill You_ if she knew what you were doing.
It seems to me there is a degree of inconsistency there - and I would still urge you not to do anything which may destroy that Loving relationship you told us you had with your mother, - unless you want to of course. 
Remember also, it all apparently came about because of a drunken relative.
I have already suggested that individual may have had a hidden agenda of his or her own. Is that a possibility I ask ?
(_you can choose your friends but not your relatives_)
As for that movie someone went to see in Cambelltown, the significance of that should perhaps not escape you (The venue, I mean - _"Oh Cambeltown Loch, I wish you were whiskey"_ ).
I am, in the aftermath of Burns Night and Haggis, ( and all that, - in another thread) reminded of "Old Tam" of Tam O'Shanter Fame. Perhaps your drunken relative may have envisaged creating a scenario whereby your much loved mother might come to see you differently to the way she has in the past - _perhaps even, a beautiful woman, growing horns._ That too, could be a possibility, and no matter how remote it may be, you should at least consider it, if you have not done so already. *So I suggest you Just laugh at it all.
*Each and every posting on here has validity - *only you* know enough of the facts to make an informed decision.
It is YOU who is the most important consideration in this matter, and in that respect, you have to decide in favour of your own wellbeing and happiness, looking forward. To do that, you need to consider all possibilities, or as many as you can think of.
*You are the important one here, no one else*. *From that perspective* alone, it really doesn't matter a damn who your father was, it's *who you are - that's what's most important of all.
*( _ AND NOT some hallucination that some drunkard may have placed in your mind._) 
You should also recognise that sometimes the best friends that you have are those who tell you the things you do not want to hear, as opposed to the things they think you want to hear. The latter are the do-gooder types, with the best intentions perhaps, but sometimes they do incredible harm without knowing it, - consider that also.
Whatever you decide, I feel sure all members contributing to this discussion, will respect your decision and wish you well, no matter what that decision may be. 
Was he Spanish, perhaps Portuguese, Brazilian, Mexican, Was he really off a Spanish vessel, Could he even have been a Beetle - who knows - the list goes on and on and on. Maybe your mother is unsure - it depends on what he told her, and was he telling the truth.
*What we can be sure of* is that today - *You are the one that counts.
*So just be careful, - that's all.

_B.Y. is a poet of distinction, and I am " A Music Man". 
That makes us both somewhat "Romantics" and perhaps not the "Realists" of this world, in relation to these matters.
Be guided accordingly, Get a Grip of yourself, and Laugh at it, - I implore you.
_"OUT" (Flowers)
(Fly)


----------



## oilkinger

About 7 years ago I saw a post from a woman on a ex-Royal Australian Navy sailors website. It was very similar to Joanne's quest. She was seeking details on her biological father and had very scant detail, just a couple of notes, his name, and a photo she found after her mother passed away. Her mother had told her she was the result of a very brief love affair with a US submariner passing through Fremantle in 1944. The photo showed him and a couple of mates standing in front of a submarine.
He went off to war, before the mother realised she was pregnant, and never came back. The mother never contacted him.
So - I contacted the US Navy & US archives only to be told they don't release the names of serving, or ex, personnel.
But, the ex-submariners website has complete crew lists from WWII. They had literally hundreds of subs that operated in the Pacific theatre and it took quite a while to trawl through all the names. No darn luck. It seemed like I had reached a dead-end. Then, one day I was looking at the sailor's photo on the screen and, in the distance behind the submarine, was the stern of a merchant ship and, sitting on the stern was a gun sponson. Bingo - possibly a submarine tender. A bit of grainy magnification and I could make out the first 2 letters, GR.
A bit of research and up popped the USS Griffin which had been in Fremantle in 1944. I then found details of a wartime crew reunion coming up in Las Vegas with an email address of one of the organisers and sent him the details. He replied to say that the bloke in question was still alive. I asked him to pass on the details plus the phone no. of his new found daughter in Fremantle, in the event he wanted to contact her - after the shock that is !
This he did and it all went very well. A few weeks later she flew to Seattle where he lives. 
So Joanne, please go forward without too much fear. Very good outcomes are possible.

JG / FME


----------



## shipgenie

Thanks for sharing nice info


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## Barrie Youde

#128

OM 80,

There can be little doubt that your view is well-intended; but your reference to me is mere flattery. I have no distinction in poetry other than that I'm a compulsive writer of light verse

Your advice to Joanne that she should get a grip of herself and "laugh at" the present cir***stances is, however, positively insulting to her; at least until she has explored matters as far as they sensibly can be explored. Not even I suggest that Joanne should move heaven and earth; because most of us know that that cannot be done.

I have suggested nothing more than the reasonable and practical steps which could be taken, from my own personal (and vividly real) experience. My days piloting Spanish fruit ships into and out of Liverpool as a young man are remembered most vividly. At the time of the 1967 Dock Strike I was aged 24 and had held a Pilot's Licence for more than a year. I was still learning and observing the whole time. In common with your good self last night, I was drinking everything in; and most of it has stayed with me. The memory of 1967 has stayed with me as yesterday; and not as any mere hangover from last night.

My experience of the Cavern Club was minimal (if at all); and as to your suggestion that casual affairs (for want of a better expression) were taking place at some extreme rate, I simply don't believe that ordinary human behaviour in Liverpool in 1967 was in any way different from ordinary human behaviour there at any other time. If it was, I did not see it.


----------



## oldman 80

Barrie Youde said:


> #128
> 
> OM 80,
> 
> There can be little doubt that your view is well-intended; but your reference to me is mere flattery. I have no distinction in poetry other than that I'm a compulsive writer of light verse
> 
> Your advice to Joanne that she should get a grip of herself and "laugh at" the present cir***stances is, however, positively insulting to her; at least until she has explored matters as far as they sensibly can be explored. Not even I suggest that should move heaven and earth; because most of us know that that cannot be done.
> 
> I have suggested nothing more than the reasonable and practical steps which could be taken, from my own personal (and vividly real) experience. My days piloting Spanish fruit ships into and out of Liverpool as a young man are remembered most vividly. At the time of the 1967 Dock Strike I was aged 24 and had held a Pilot's Licence for more than a year. I was still learning and observing the whole time. In common with your good self last night, I was drinking everything in; and most of it has stayed with me. The memory of 1967 has stayed with me as yesterday; and not as any mere hangover from last night.


Hmm well that is your opinion, and you are sure entitled to it as much as is anyone else.
However :- 
1. *Flattery ?* Why the hell would I choose to "Flatter" you.
2. *Your distinction in Poetry*. Well that may be your view, but there are many on this website who would disagree with you - and I am one of them. Not as good as the two great bards perhaps, but of credible distinction no doubt. Besides I enjoy most of your writings on here. They make me laugh - which is better than any medicines for sure.
3. *A compulsive writer of light verse* - I don't dispute it, and am thankful you are as we would be somewhat deprived of an obvious talent were you not.
4. *Insulting to Joanne ?* Well that's your opinion, which may not be her own. I have a feeling she is well capable of saying it for herself if she really regards it as such.
5. *Your reasonable and practical steps*. I have no argument with that, nor of any of the other suggestions advanced by others contributing to the thread. All are valid.
6. *A Mersey Pilots license* at 24 (1967) Well done and I suggest lucky you. At the time of the 67dock strike I was trembling before a B.O.T. Examiner in Glasgow who was a notorious wildcard. He threw me out, but that was nothing unusual, he did it with most first time candidates, and told us to come back a month later. When he asked "And what does the rule say about that situation" - your answer had to be word perfect, or you'd get thrown out the door once again. I didn't like it at the time, but in the years that followed, I was so glad to have been examined by that particular guy. He was a life saver, in his own way - that's for sure. ( a bit of a bastard so we thought at the time - changed our opinions later though )
7. Another thing that crossed my mind when offering my advice to Joanne, was her apparent inclination to meet up with you in Liverpool. Whether you agree or not, you are a poet of distinction, at least on this site. Poets are romantics by nature. Rabbie Burns certainly was, and a bit of a lad with the ladies, as everyone well knows. I wondered if you are any different, and I should perhaps have mentioned it to her in my last posting, - just in case.
As for myself - "the music man". I'm different to you, and certainly no flatterer. I just call it the way I see it, - that's all. 
I ask no one to agree with me, but they can if they want to, as indeed, they can disagree as much as they like. That doesn't bother me at all.
Thanks for the maritime verses - they're good, - at least mostly.
"Flattery" is not required.
(Gleam)


----------



## Robert Hilton

#132, OM 80 Your paternalism amazes me. You are lecturing two adults. Romanticism is no crime and probably not even a danger in this case. You are addressing an experienced master mariner and a married lady in middle age. They might just be amused, or even flattered, at being treated as adolescent by the senescent. Thanks for the entertainment. 

I have long felt that going to sea is some kind of aberration, and I'm still at it.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#133

Many thanks, Robert!

For the record, I am happily married and learned long ago that I must behave if I might wish to stay that way - which I do!


----------



## oldman 80

Barrie Youde said:


> #133
> 
> Many thanks, Robert!
> 
> For the record, I am happily married and learned long ago that I must behave if I might wish to stay that way - which I do!


Hmm, I see.
(@)


----------



## oldman 80

Robert Hilton said:


> #132, OM 80 Your paternalism amazes me. You are lecturing two adults. Romanticism is no crime and probably not even a danger in this case.
> 
> 
> 
> You are addressing an experienced master mariner
> 
> 
> 
> and a married lady in middle age. They might just be amused, or even flattered, at being treated as adolescent by the senescent. Thanks for the entertainment.
> 
> I have long felt that going to sea is some kind of aberration, and I'm still at it.
Click to expand...

Me too, (retired shipmaster) and a pilot as well, - perhaps that's what concerned me the most.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#136

Am very pleased that you might now be feeling better.

BY


----------



## Robert Hilton

#134 to #136 Seem to imply that I'm not about to be kept in on Wednesday. Narrow escape?


----------



## R58484956

Well Joanne, I bet you never thought that your original post would bring out so many different views and comments.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

#139

Hi,

I most certainly did NOT expect this amount of debate in the most recent of messages. My experience on this forum has been nothing but a positive one. I have gained so much support from here, which has helped me enormously. I have read each and every message with an open mind, and have most certainly not been offended by anybody at all. I am more than able to speak up for myself. But honestly, each message I have taken something from, and I thank you all for your time, and honesty. And for the record, when I suggested to Barrie Youde about meeting up at Liverpool Maritime, he would only agree if my mum was on board with all of this. That's because Barrie is a very decent human being, and I totally respect him in his decision. Thanks Barrie. Of course, I cannot gain that agreement from my mum, and she STILL doesn't know that I am registered on here, and have received all of these wonderful messages from you all. THANK YOU ALL for your interest, and continuing support.
Regards
Joanne


----------



## Barrie Youde

Keep going, Jo!

Hope we might meet yet!


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Hi Albie #127

You are right, I think I have confused your comments with somebody else, I'm still new to this, and obviously struggling with current technology!! ha-ha. please accept my sincere apologies, and thank you for your continued support.

Kind regards
joanne


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Good evening. #129

Thank you for sharing this beautiful story on this forum.

Regards
Joanne


----------



## Barrie Youde

#143

Amen to #129.

At the risk of over-simplification, I'm reminded of a proverb which my own Mother drilled into me.

For every evil under the Sun
There is a remedy, or there is none.
If there be one, try and find it.
If there be none, never mind it.

There is no evidence of evil in this case - merely human misfortune; and there are as yet plenty of remedies available to resolve it.


----------



## Barrie Youde

I hope that the verse below might merit an airing here, if only by way of light diversion. It does not relate to the Spanish fruit-trade, but it does relate to the South Docks of Liverpool in days gone by. When I wrote it more than ten years ago, I had in mind a Geordie-tramp, laden with cotton.

PILOT’S ADVICE
Climb you smartly up the ladder, take the Master by the hand.
“Welcome! Hail! Good morning, Captain! Tell me, sir, where are you bound?”

“Bound I am, sir, for the Mersey, laden deep with cotton, raw.
Finest produce of the Indies, and my draft is twenty-four.”

“Keep her going at full speed, sir. There’s a chance we’ll catch the tide.
Steady-up on o-eight-o, sir. Keep that steam-valve open wide.
A dozen leagues across the bay, sir, sixteen more miles then upstream.
Fifty-two to Brunswick Dock, sir. Keep her going. Crack on steam!
Four hours now before high water, tide behind us, say, one knot.
You’ve got twelve (or so you tell me). This should give us one good shot.
Keep her going, keep her going, tell the engineers the plan.
Home tonight or swing at anchor: On a promise – every man!
Tide’s at two o’clock exactly, time is now just after ten.
Would you like the morning paper? Interest rates are up again.”

Romping now, we’re off the Ormeshead. Two hours more, we’ll pass the Bar.
Well-found ship and friendly Master. All is looking well, so far.
Coffee? Thank you. Strong and black, please. Lunch, yes please, here on the bridge.
Bar abeam. It’s now twelve-twenty. Starboard easy. Just a smidge.

“How d’you think we’re doing Pilot? Do we need a special flag?
All the crew are ready, Pilot. I’ve put a bottle in your bag.”

“Thank you. We are doing nicely. Pennant Number One and Q.
If we take her north of Formby, we should catch the tide at two.
Tell the engineers to stand-by but not yet to slow her down.
One-fifteen should be their moment, when we’re somewhat nearer town.”
Clear of Formby, up Queen’s Channel, Crosby Bend and Crosby Light,
Keep her going, keep her going, on past Burbo, as in flight.
Here’s Brazil and next comes Rip-Rap, time to notch her down a peg.
Half-ahead now, ease the speed off, running past both Tower and Egg.
Slow-ahead, we’re passing Seacombe. Off Woodside it’s half past one.
Stop her now. Let’s get the tugs fast. Jolly good, we’ve made our run!

Time in hand, let’s take it gently. Hard-a-port, some kicks ahead.
Watch the transits, get her lined up. Watch the markings on the shed.
Through the Entrance, ticking over. What a lovely, smooth Dead-slow.
Ten to two now, perfect timing. Nothing fussed. No thrash or show.
Pass stern-first through two more gateways. STOP THAT TUG! He’s over-keen.
Gently, gently, catchee monkey. Keep it quiet and keep it clean.
Pass the stern-rope to the gig-boat, Let him run the line ashore.
Let him come back for the head-rope. Warp her in and make secure.

“Thank you, Pilot,” says the Master, “Will you have dram or twain?”
“Thank you, Captain,” says the Pilot, “One. Then I must catch my train.”

BY
2002

Where I have pontificated about “Gently, gently, catchee monkee”, this was long after an experience with the Moncho Reboredo in the very early days of my Licence (before even the 1967 Dock Strike). Inward bound from Barcelona in the early winter, laden with oranges and other goodies, she arrived at the Pilot Station off Point Lynas, Anglesey at about midnight, well in time for the morning tide at Brunswick at about 1100 that day. We were bound for the West side of Harrington Dock. A north-westerly gale was blowing. By the time we arrived off Brunswick Locks and ready to enter, I was already exhausted on my feet. Full of coffee and a greasy Spanish breakfast. Mouth like the bottom of a parrot’s cage. After Brunswick Locks were cleared, we swung to the South and through and along the length of Toxteth Dock. With the wind almost directly behind us, we shot through the narrow gateway into Harrington Dock at what was obviously far too great a speed. An audience-army of dockers was standing on the West quay, waiting to start the discharge of cargo. Starboard anchor ready! Let go! Rattle, rattle, rattle! Hold fast! With a shower of sparks from the windlass and alarmed looks from the Mate and two sailors on the fo’c’sle head, we swung like a conker on a string and, somehow, by the grace of God and on a wing and a prayer, we arrived alongside the berth without damage.

The sense of relief on asking the Master to sign my card is something that I recall vividly, even now. Happy days! Whether or not Juan might have been in the crew, I simply do not know.


----------



## oldman 80

What an incredibly wonderful thread, perhaps even the very best yet.
Well done Joanne, nice to see there are well balanced people still amongst us.
You are definitely the one that counts in this case today.
(Applause)


----------



## oldman 80

Barrie Youde said:


> I hope that the verse below might merit an airing here, if only by way of light diversion. It does not relate to the Spanish fruit-trade, but it does relate to the South Docks of Liverpool in days gone by. When I wrote it more than ten years ago, I had in mind a Geordie-tramp, laden with cotton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PILOT’S ADVICE
> Climb you smartly up the ladder, take the Master by the hand.
> “Welcome! Hail! Good morning, Captain! Tell me, sir, where are you bound?”
> 
> “Bound I am, sir, for the Mersey, laden deep with cotton, raw.
> Finest produce of the Indies, and my draft is twenty-four.”
> 
> “Keep her going at full speed, sir. There’s a chance we’ll catch the tide.
> Steady-up on o-eight-o, sir. Keep that steam-valve open wide.
> A dozen leagues across the bay, sir, sixteen more miles then upstream.
> Fifty-two to Brunswick Dock, sir. Keep her going. Crack on steam!
> Four hours now before high water, tide behind us, say, one knot.
> You’ve got twelve (or so you tell me). This should give us one good shot.
> Keep her going, keep her going, tell the engineers the plan.
> Home tonight or swing at anchor: On a promise – every man!
> Tide’s at two o’clock exactly, time is now just after ten.
> Would you like the morning paper? Interest rates are up again.”
> 
> Romping now, we’re off the Ormeshead. Two hours more, we’ll pass the Bar.
> Well-found ship and friendly Master. All is looking well, so far.
> Coffee? Thank you. Strong and black, please. Lunch, yes please, here on the bridge.
> Bar abeam. It’s now twelve-twenty. Starboard easy. Just a smidge.
> 
> “How d’you think we’re doing Pilot? Do we need a special flag?
> All the crew are ready, Pilot. I’ve put a bottle in your bag.”
> 
> “Thank you. We are doing nicely. Pennant Number One and Q.
> If we take her north of Formby, we should catch the tide at two.
> Tell the engineers to stand-by but not yet to slow her down.
> One-fifteen should be their moment, when we’re somewhat nearer town.” Clear of Formby, up Queen’s Channel, Crosby Bend and Crosby Light,
> Keep her going, keep her going, on past Burbo, as in flight.
> Here’s Brazil and next comes Rip-Rap, time to notch her down a peg.
> Half-ahead now, ease the speed off, running past both Tower and Egg.
> Slow-ahead, we’re passing Seacombe. Off Woodside it’s half past one.
> Stop her now. Let’s get the tugs fast. Jolly good, we’ve made our run!
> 
> Time in hand, let’s take it gently. Hard-a-port, some kicks ahead.
> Watch the transits, get her lined up. Watch the markings on the shed.
> Through the Entrance, ticking over. What a lovely, smooth Dead-slow.
> Ten to two now, perfect timing. Nothing fussed. No thrash or show.
> Pass stern-first through two more gateways. STOP THAT TUG! He’s over-keen.
> Gently, gently, catchee monkey. Keep it quiet and keep it clean.
> Pass the stern-rope to the gig-boat, Let him run the line ashore.
> Let him come back for the head-rope. Warp her in and make secure.
> 
> “Thank you, Pilot,” says the Master, “Will you have dram or twain?”
> “Thank you, Captain,” says the Pilot, “One. Then I must catch my train.”
> 
> BY
> 2002
> 
> 
> 
> Where I have pontificated about “Gently, gently, catchee monkee”, this was long after an experience with the Moncho Reboredo in the very early days of my Licence (before even the 1967 Dock Strike). Inward bound from Barcelona in the early winter, laden with oranges and other goodies, she arrived at the Pilot Station off Point Lynas, Anglesey at about midnight, well in time for the morning tide at Brunswick at about 1100 that day. We were bound for the West side of Harrington Dock. A north-westerly gale was blowing. By the time we arrived off Brunswick Locks and ready to enter, I was already exhausted on my feet. Full of coffee and a greasy Spanish breakfast. Mouth like the bottom of a parrot’s cage. After Brunswick Locks were cleared, we swung to the South and through and along the length of Toxteth Dock. With the wind almost directly behind us, we shot through the narrow gateway into Harrington Dock at what was obviously far too great a speed. An audience-army of dockers was standing on the West quay, waiting to start the discharge of cargo. Starboard anchor ready! Let go! Rattle, rattle, rattle! Hold fast! With a shower of sparks from the windlass and alarmed looks from the Mate and two sailors on the fo’c’sle head, we swung like a conker on a string and, somehow, by the grace of God and on a wing and a prayer, we arrived alongside the berth without damage.
> 
> The sense of relief on asking the Master to sign my card is something that I recall vividly, even now. Happy days! Whether or not Juan might have been in the crew, I simply do not know.
Click to expand...

Well there you are then, - that says it all.
"With distinction" yet again.
I told you so.
Don't argue.䳮


----------



## Barrie Youde

Many thanks, OM.

Next stop Tuesday, it seems.

Full sea-speed.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Hello Barrie,#147

Thanks again for brightening up my day! 

Best Wishes
Joanne


----------



## Gerald Jackson

No 145 Great Barrie. Can see it happening from the Bidston or Thursistan ferries


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Hi All,

I tried to upload some pictures to add to my profile, however, they have ended up under the titles of, members faces, and cargo vessels.. HA-HA. 

My hubby isn't at home to help me!

Joanne


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Hi

I have uploaded my wedding picture May 26th 2012. Both my non-biological father (Mike) and my biological father (juan) were not present. My beautiful brother Mike gave me away. I know for sure that my dad mike was present on my special day, I would love nothing more than to know my biological father Juan was there in spirit too. I would love nothing more than to send my father Juan, my wedding picture for him to see with his own eyes, the daughter he never knew.


----------



## oldman 80

Barrie Youde said:


> Many thanks, OM.
> 
> Next stop Tuesday, it seems.
> 
> Full sea-speed.


My pleasure - no problem at all.
I'm going to try it myself,
By Tuesday I should have managed a verse.
Stand By.
Watch this space !!!!!!!!
(*))


----------



## oldman 80

joanne patricia 68 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have uploaded my wedding picture May 26th 2012. Both my non-biological father (Mike) and my biological father (juan) were not present. My beautiful brother Mike gave me away. I know for sure that my dad mike was present on my special day, I would love nothing more than to know my biological father Juan was there in spirit too. I would love nothing more than to send my father Juan, my wedding picture for him to see with his own eyes, the daughter he never knew.


Cancel #153 Barrie - she's married.
I'll have to think of something else !!!!!


Thought #1. It is a beautiful wedding photo for sure. Are you sure it's the correct one you have uploaded, and not A Bridesmaid, - Perhaps.
Thought #2. It does not seem to me to be the photo of a 43/45 year old Cheshire Nurse (as per your profile) getting married in 2012 as per your post above.
_At that age (43/45) such beauty would be exceptionally rare_.
Thought #3. "_Juan and the daughter he never knew_" - may be understandable now. I hope you're not teasing him and us, or perhaps even "taking the piss."
Thought #4. _*Vengeance is mine alone*_ - said the lord. (refer thought #3)
Thought #5. Some persons have attracted a lot of attention in this thread - does someone need their bottom smacked ? It's never too late - if so.
Thought # 6. I think I hear a horn or whistle blowing somewhere, and the house is beginning to shake - I have to go now. BYE.
Thought #7. Re:- Thought #6 - Could that be you "Outward", Barrie. I'll understand if it is.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#154


OM80,

Have you been at the sauce again? Your remarks are highly impertinent towards Joanne, who has asked for our help.

I've promised to try to identify the names of the Spanish vessels which were in Liverpool during the 1967 Dock Strike, from a list of all such ships. As soon as I see any such list I will try to do so.

Being bloody rude, as you are, helps nobody.


----------



## oldman 80

Barrie Youde said:


> #154
> 
> 
> OM80,
> 
> Have you been at the sauce again? Your remarks are highly impertinent towards Joanne, who has asked for our help.
> 
> I've promised to try to identify the names of the Spanish vessels which were in Liverpool during the 1967 Dock Strike, from a list of all such ships. As soon as I see any such list I will try to do so.
> 
> Being bloody rude, as you are, helps nobody.


*No* - I have not been on " the sauce" as you put it. I'm far too old for that - 2 standard drinks a week on Fridays - that's all I have. Yes she has asked for our help and got it - but it doesn't "add up" any more, in my view, unless you know something we don't.. 
Well lets wait and she what she says - that's not her wedding photo of 2 years ago, she says she is 45 years of age, in her profile.
That bride can't be more than 25 - if that. A bridesmaid maybe but not a 43/45 year old bride. Surely.
Who is really on the sauce ? - I wonder, - certainly not me. 
You may be a good poet, but a poor investigator, if you ask me.
*And there is no need to swear either*. Where's your manners ?
Go ahead - find the ships, which without doubt you will do, or rather the paper records of them if that's what she, her mother, and now her husband, still want you to do. 
There's a husband involved now - which we did not know about before. Maybe you did, but not us, (the members assisting), unless I have missed something, of course.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#156.

Yes, you have missed something of significance.

Joanne made it clear in #33 that she is a nurse, married to a doctor and her father-in-law is a GP.

I agree that neither photograph shown so far resembles a woman aged 43 in 2012; but as my own investigation relates to 1967 (and nothing later) I do not at present hold the photographs to be of much relevance, if any.

For present purposes, Joanne could look like any other Liverpool-born woman.


----------



## joanne patricia 68

Barrie Youde said:


> #156.
> 
> Yes, you have missed something of significance.
> 
> Joanne made it clear in #33 that she is a nurse, married to a doctor and her father-in-law is a GP.
> 
> I agree that neither photograph shown so far resembles a woman aged 43 in 2012; but as my own investigation relates to 1967 (and nothing later) I do not at present hold the photographs to be of much relevance, if any.
> 
> For present purposes, Joanne could look like any other Liverpool-born woman.


Thanks Barrie

I will ignore those past comments, they are silly and immature. I obviously know my marital status, and DOB. Ha -Ha. I am going to remove those pictures now anyway. Then I am off to work. Have a good weekend.

Joanne


----------



## Barrie Youde

#159

Thank you for your advice.

If you could possibly assist with any information from the Journal of Commerce, that would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#161

If that is what you think, and if you really do wish to help, please would you go to it?

Many thanks.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#163

In this matter, the whole of SN is on the beat.

Please would you extract any helpful list from the site-details which you kindly provide - and please then forward it to me?

I lack technical competence in the matter of computer-based searches.

Many thanks.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#165

Many thanks.

I have made the request to the address which you kindly suggest.

Not having read the Journal of Commerce since it was available in print on the news-stands almost thirty years ago, I had long lost any familiarity with its contact details; although I do remember going to its offices in the Cotton Exchange in about 1992. The Editor was, (I think) Craig Carter: and my understanding is that it has long-since moved to the Isle of Man.

Repeated thanks for your help. We shall see what we shall see!


----------



## Barrie Youde

#167,

Thank you for that, too.

I made a similar request to a contact at the Liverpool Echo yesterday, with so far no response. Joanne has indicated that there is a list at the Maritime Museum which she intends to investigate further on Tuesday. Am hoping that she will provide a copy.

Other names from the fruit trade which I remember from the time are the Trafrume Line and the ship Indunaval Tercero. (Whether there was a Secundo or a Quattro, I'm not sure.)


----------



## Barrie Youde

#169

I agree. I have asked that question of Joanne and no answer is yet forthcoming. The reference to Seaforth does not fit at all.


----------



## duncs

An interesting and entertaining thread this. I wish you all the best, Joanne, in your quest. Whatever that may be.

Duncs


----------



## trotterdotpom

duncs said:


> An interesting and entertaining thread this. I wish you all the best, Joanne, in your quest. Whatever that may be.
> 
> Duncs


The quest is to find Joanne's father, Duncs. Maybe the main participants should exchange email addresses and announce any progress if and when it happens.

John T


----------



## AlbieR

Barrie,

Ithink you are confusing Liverpool journal of Commerce with Sea Breezes, Sea Breezes office was in Cotton Exchange and Craig J.M. Carter was editor from 11/1962 until 08/1986

AlbieR


----------



## duncs

trotterdotpom said:


> The quest is to find Joanne's father, Duncs. Maybe the main participants should exchange email addresses and announce any progress if and when it happens.
> 
> John T


OK John, I was being a bit facetious there, for which I apologise. But, finding a Spanish sailor called Juan, in Liverpool, sometime within a 3 week period?.... Well, think about it. If Joanne is sincere, then I sincerely and truly wish her well.

Duncs


----------



## Barrie Youde

Thank you, Albie.

In all the collapse of the Liverpool infrastructure at the time, I had the impression that the Journal of Commerce bought Sea Breezes (or it might even have been the other way around). I do know that Sea breezes still thrives today, from the Isle of Man.

As to John's suggestion re email addresses, I'm all for it. Joanne and I have already exchanged email addresses but have not yet used them. If anybody might wish to email me, please send a PM first and I will let you have my address.

The way that I read the cir***stances overall at present is that Joanne is a highly capable young woman who has (literally) inherited a problem which any one of us would be surprised to inherit; and which would perplex anybody in searching for the truth. The "Seaforth" reference might well have arisen by way of the fact that Seaforth today is by far the most significant part of the Port of Liverpool; and it might well have been a virtually subconscious reference on Joanne's part. Certainly (as many readers will know) there was no Seaforth Dock and very little (if any) Spanish trade in the Seaforth area in 1967. 

Unless and until Joanne's Mother might be willing to offer further information, I do not think that any one of us here can do anything more than make suggestions as to the name of the ship in which Joanne's father might have served. If, that is, he was a sailor at all. He might simply have been in Liverpool on a business trip from Spain, for all we know at present. There were many Spanish businessmen who dealt in the Liverpool wholesale fruit market.

My closest friend at school was the son of a wholesale fruit merchant in Queen's Square, Liverpool ; and my experiences of that aspect of Liverpool life were thus not simply maritime.


----------



## Barrie Youde

News.

Liverpool Central Library Record Office advises that the Journal of Commerce is available for inspection on microfilm.

If anybody might feel like taking a trip to William Brown Street and reporting back, that might be very helpful.

My own inclination is to wait and see what Joanne might unearth from the Maritime Museum on Tuesday; and to take it from there.

The Liverpool Library Record Office also advises that if they are to be asked to conduct the research then they will charge a fee. There is no fee (as I understand it) charged to those who attend in person and conduct their own research.


----------



## Binnacle

Barrie, another suggestion - (Scribe)
I don't know the drill on Spanish ships when they are in foreign ports, however if the rules are similar to ours then the master would be required to present his articles at the Spanish Consulate when berthed in Liverpool and records of ships visits to Liverpool would be held in the archives. One phone call might confirm. Sherlock Holmes would be proud of you.

Consul Enrique Sanchez,
Consulate of Spain,
Gladstone House, 2 Church Road, Liverpool
L15 9EG
Tel. 0151 734 1444 / 0151 734 6532
Fax. 0151 734 6539


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## Barrie Youde

#177 & #178

My thanks to you both.

Will let you know how things develop. Have now confirmed to Joanne by email that her Mother's co-operation is essential.

Best,

BY


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## Ron Dean

As one who is unable to contribute any useful information to this thread, I'm sure that I am just one of (very) many, who appreciates all the efforts of Barrie and of the many others who have contributed.

If a successful outcome is not achieved, I'm sure Joanne will know that SN will have given it their best shot.

Best wishes, 

Ron.


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## Duncan112

As Sea Breezes has been mentioned they print a questions/help section at the back with a worldwide readership, might be worth putting a question regarding ships identity there also. John Clarkson of Ships in Focus also has an extensive reference library and I have found him and his wife most personable and helpful on the two occasions I have met them.


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## oldman 80

joanne patricia 68 said:


> Thanks Barrie
> 
> I will ignore those past comments, they are silly and immature. I obviously know my marital status, and DOB. Ha -Ha. I am going to remove those pictures now anyway. Then I am off to work. Have a good weekend.
> 
> Joanne


HMM - remove the pictures you have, and replaced with yet another one. Playing games - I suggest.
My memory may not be the best in the world, but picture 1 and picture 2 did not appear to me to have been of the same person.
Picture 1 and the current one might have been. I can see (recall) the "Flamenco" look in both of those.
I note also this guy "Juan" was first described as a* sea merchant *- that doesn't mean he was a mariner - but mariners always tend to get the blame for these sorts of things. From what I have gleaned from this thread, Juan is unlikely to have been a seaman, more like a business man, possibly travelling by ship. Maybe even the shipper of the ships cargo or an owner or an owners representative.
A true seaman would have kept in touch, or contacted your mother again on his next trip to Liverpool -* if it was love*. However I don't think it was that - it's just a feeling I've got.
It was the poet who put that into our heads. Silly "Romantic Dreamer" - but poetry is nice, even if it is delusional, in such cases.
Seamen in love don't "abandoned", unless they absolutely have to for some reason. It goes right "against the grain".
You were warned not to pursue this, for fear of the damage that might be done, perhaps inadvertently, perhaps even intentionally.
There are too many people getting sucked in, who would be better out of it altogether. Does your husband know what's been going on ?
(Cloud)


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## Barrie Youde

Dear OM,

You really should keep taking the tablets.

Best wishes,

BY


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## joanne patricia 68

oldman 80 said:


> HMM - remove the pictures you have, and replaced with yet another one. Playing games - I suggest.
> My memory may not be the best in the world, but picture 1 and picture 2 did not appear to me to have been of the same person.
> Picture 1 and the current one might have been. I can see (recall) the "Flamenco" look in both of those.
> I note also this guy "Juan" was first described as a* sea merchant *- that doesn't mean he was a mariner - but mariners always tend to get the blame for these sorts of things. From what I have gleaned from this thread, Juan is unlikely to have been a seaman, more like a business man, possibly travelling by ship. Maybe even the shipper of the ships cargo or an owner or an owners representative.
> A true seaman would have kept in touch, or contacted your mother again on his next trip to Liverpool -* if it was love*. However I don't think it was that - it's just a feeling I've got.
> It was the poet who put that into our heads. Silly "Romantic Dreamer" - but poetry is nice, even if it is delusional, in such cases.
> Seamen in love don't "abandoned", unless they absolutely have to for some reason. It goes right "against the grain".
> You were warned not to pursue this, for fear of the damage that might be done, perhaps inadvertently, perhaps even intentionally.
> There are too many people getting sucked in, who would be better out of it altogether. Does your husband know what's been going on ?
> (Cloud)


Kindly keep your vulgar remarks to yourself, and STAY OFF my forum. You are no longer welcome to post on here. I am going to report you to a staff member!


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## joanne patricia 68

Duncan112 said:


> As Sea Breezes has been mentioned they print a questions/help section at the back with a worldwide readership, might be worth putting a question regarding ships identity there also. John Clarkson of Ships in Focus also has an extensive reference library and I have found him and his wife most personable and helpful on the two occasions I have met them.


Many thanks for your support.

Best wishes
Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Ron Dean said:


> As one who is unable to contribute any useful information to this thread, I'm sure that I am just one of (very) many, who appreciates all the efforts of Barrie and of the many others who have contributed.
> 
> If a successful outcome is not achieved, I'm sure Joanne will know that SN will have given it their best shot.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Ron.


Thank you. And a HUGE thanks to Barrie for his help and time. He is a very special person.

Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

R651400 said:


> Just dug out my one and only Sea Breezes for June 1978..
> Printed by Swale Press Ltd.. Widnes.
> Published by The Journal of Commerce and Shipping Telegraph Ltd., 213 Tower Building, Water Street, Liverpool L3 1LN and 63 Shelton Street, Long Acre, London WC2


Many thanks for your help.

Best wishes
Joanne


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## joanne patricia 68

Barrie Youde said:


> News.
> 
> Liverpool Central Library Record Office advises that the Journal of Commerce is available for inspection on microfilm.
> 
> If anybody might feel like taking a trip to William Brown Street and reporting back, that might be very helpful.
> 
> My own inclination is to wait and see what Joanne might unearth from the Maritime Museum on Tuesday; and to take it from there.
> 
> The Liverpool Library Record Office also advises that if they are to be asked to conduct the research then they will charge a fee. There is no fee (as I understand it) charged to those who attend in person and
> 
> conduct their own research.


Hi Barrie

I will contact you on my return from the Liverpool Maritime on Tuesday.

Many Thanks 
Joanne


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## oldman 80

joanne patricia 68 said:


> Kindly keep your vulgar remarks to yourself, and STAY OFF my forum. You are no longer welcome to post on here.
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to report you to a staff member!
Click to expand...

You do just that.
Silly girl.


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## oldman 80

Barrie Youde said:


> #177 & #178
> 
> My thanks to you both.
> 
> Will let you know how things develop.
> 
> 
> 
> Have now confirmed to Joanne by email that her Mother's co-operation is essential.
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> BY
Click to expand...

Very wise too - if I may say so.
Joanne has already said her mother would kill her if she knew what she was doing. Ref #54
I only hope she was speaking metaphorically.


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## oldman 80

Barrie Youde said:


> #163
> 
> In this matter, the whole of SN is on the beat.
> 
> Please would you extract any helpful list from the site-details which you kindly provide - and please then forward it to me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I lack technical competence in the matter of computer-based searches.
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks.
Click to expand...

Ah Ha, now we are getting somewhere, me thinks.
That is probably because you are a poet, (yes even of distinction) so why on earth would you even want to endulge in such skills. Yours are more important to you - and rightly so. Stick with them and develop them even further whilst you can. They will find their place in history - there is nothing more certain than that.
You may also be experiencing a taste of the problems older people have down here, and may be embarrassed to say so.
I refer to the costs of internet data. It's much more expensive down here than most places due to the size of the place. It is also less reliable, (drop outs, loss of signal etc.,) which drives you crazy when access is important, which it is sometimes.
So much research these days results in direction to places like You Tube and when that happens the cost becomes prohibitive. Your money is all gone before you know it. Even this thread is getting expensive now.
It seems you are adopting a better approach now, by getting others to do much of the research for you, and report back. That's my conclusion anyhow.
And watch out for those pictures she keeps posting in her profile, then keeps changing.
What's the next one going to be ??? - "*Dolly the Sheep*" - perhaps.
That'll attract those guys in the virtual crazy gang forum - you can bet your last dollar on that.
Consider also - who really is the "Flatterer" on here.
(Sad)


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## oldman 80

Barrie Youde said:


> Dear OM,
> 
> You really should keep taking the tablets.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> BY


Indeed you are right, because I have to. That's another downside to old age - but they don't cause me to hallucinate.
On the positive side though - *they give me control.* 
Nobody forces them down my mouth. I can stop them whenever I like.
All these wonderful memories and experiences, makes them taste sweeter than before. I just can't wait till the next lot.
P.S. an innocent comment I believe, but in yours of #56, be aware the "R" word means something "different" down here.


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## spongebob

Quote " Dolly the sheep next"?

How dare you mock our Kiwi queen in that way

Bob


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## trotterdotpom

Actually, Bob, I think she was Dolly the 6th of Scotland and 1st of England.

That was before she went to Nashville, of course.

John T


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## spongebob

John, that Dolly is now touring NZ with a show, she is more of a ewe now but there are many NZ rams rising to the occasion .

Bob


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## oldman 80

200 postings in 10 days - this must be a record.
N.B. I just edited mine of #191 and #193. (small additions only)


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## oldman 80

chadburn said:


> Unless there is a pressing medical reason then in my view I would leave it be for the moment, if your Mother had wanted you to know she would have sat you down and told you by now even after it all came to light in December. For the matter to come to light others in the Family Circle must know what happened but may not wish to upset your Mother by going into details. When the situation changes either by your Mother telling you or God forbid she passes away then that is the time to start to make further enquiries. As it is and for the reasons given by other members you have an uphill task which may not end in a happy result for yourself or for the Father you are looking for. The final decision is yours of course, but it could be an emotional minefield for you and others and there could be casualties.



*Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah*.
The most rational, sensible and poignant post on this thread to date, -by far.
And from an old "*Geordie Chief Engineer"* .
*"Amazing"* - but thinking back, they always were the best. 
(Applause)


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## barry john macauley

This Series has all The Pathos and Drama of Mrs Dales Diary,without (yet), the bloodshed.
I'm very worried about Jim.
barry mac


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## oldman 80

Was he with Bibby's by any chance ?


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## trotterdotpom

spongebob said:


> John, that Dolly is now touring NZ with a show, she is more of a ewe now but there are many NZ rams rising to the occasion .
> 
> Bob


I guess you're imparton news of the Nashville milkmaid. Naturally a lot of Kiwis would like to hogget.

John T


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## Barrie Youde

In Shell's fleet of coastal tankers there was a well-known Master whose proud boast was that he was the only sane man aboard his ship.

In support of his boast, Captain X (for he shall remain nameless) would next produce a Certificate of Mental Health issued in his name, stressing that nobody else on board held such a Certificate.

My apologies that the present cir***stances remind me of that story!


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## Gerald Jackson

Good luck Tuesday Joanne


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## jmcg

Barrie Youde said:


> In Shell's fleet of coastal tankers there was a well-known Master whose proud boast was that he was the only sane man aboard his ship.
> 
> In support of his boast, Captain X (for he shall remain nameless) would next produce a Certificate of Mental Health issued in his name, stressing that nobody else on board held such a Certificate.
> 
> My apologies that the present cir***stances remind me of that story!


Barrie

I'm not so sure about this. 

There was however a Silver Line Master who did in fact have such a certificate. He was Capt. Ronnie Safe who in earlier life as an AB suffered a catastrophic head injury. His face still bore the indentations of surgery and he had metal plates in his skull. You may just make out surgery scars on his forehead in link below

He had to have clearance from his own doctor together with the then BoT medical clearance. 

I sailed with him on Silvershore and again on Binsnes (8 months). Some claimed he had a reputation for being cantankerous, however, I found him to be a fine OM and hold him in the highest regard. Sadly, passed on now. 

Fools he suffered not!

http://www.portarchive.com/1972/08-August Page 23 to 40.pdf

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## Barrie Youde

#205

Am delighted to hear that Ronnie Safe was a good man - but no, we are not talking about the same man!


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## duncs

Shades of Boogis street!!


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## Barrie Youde

#207

For sure, much human life is mirrored here, too!


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## Barrie Youde

Nothing has been heard from Joanne following her intended visit to Merseyside Maritime Museum yesterday.

It is difficult to imagine the heart-ache which she must be experiencing in seeking to resolve matters with her Mother.

In the meantime, my thanks for all good wishes and offers of help.


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## joanne patricia 68

Barrie Youde said:


> Nothing has been heard from Joanne following her intended visit to Merseyside Maritime Museum yesterday.
> 
> It is difficult to imagine the heart-ache which she must be experiencing in seeking to resolve matters with her Mother.
> 
> In the meantime, my thanks for all good wishes and offers of help.


Thank you Barrie

I have sent you an Email.

Best wishes
Joanne


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## R58484956

Seems to be all quiet on the information front.


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## Barrie Youde

Am quite sure that Joanne will be only too pleased to report any further development as and when it might arise. She has already made it clear that at present she remains subject to absolute government by apron strings - as we all once knew.


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## eldersuk

I wonder if there any records kept from the old Liverpool Fruit Exchange which used to receive cargoes direct from the ship.

If so they may pinpoint which fruit boats were in port at the relevant time.

A faint hope, I know.

Derek


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## joanne patricia 68

eldersuk said:


> I wonder if there any records kept from the old Liverpool Fruit Exchange which used to receive cargoes direct from the ship.
> 
> If so they may pinpoint which fruit boats were in port at the relevant time.
> 
> A faint hope, I know.
> 
> Derek


Thanks Derek

I suppose another trip to Maritime could answer that for me.


----------

