# how do I identify a ships photo?



## amanda davies (Apr 3, 2008)

OK, I've got my Grandfathers seamans pouch, which is great! 
it lists all the ships he sailed on by offical number and I've hit the miramar ship index big time and found out the names and dates they were made, when they changed their names and the fate of each. Ive got this down to a fine art now! next step get photos......

here the problem starts. none of the sites I've found, lists the ship with an offical number, just the name and as many shipping lines made a habit of having three or four ships with the same name, albeit not at the same time, how do I know which is the right ship?? moreover the ship may appear only under one of the names that she may have had. I've got 14 ships with between three and five names a piece.

My ability to identify a ship purely on its tonnage is nil!

My grandfather sailed mainly with Prince line and General steam navigation. even the Prince line websites dont have photos of all their ships and the quality of those they have got is not good.

Am I missing something fundamental here?

or in other words........HELP!!!!


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## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

Amanda,post the ships names here,someone will hep


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## Bruce Carson (Jun 14, 2005)

Amanda, you say you have the build date for each ship.
If you list the ships here, also list the year of build.
That will pinpoint the correct vessel if there were more than one of the same name owned by the company.


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Not an easy task but as others have said you need a standard approach. You actually have more information than a lot of people trying to find out about their relatives ships.

Your starting point is the record of the ships name and official number.

1. Go to Miramar and search on the name. If there are several ships with the same name you can find the correct one from the official number.

2. Miramar will give you the date of launch and other information which could be of use. It will also have the alternative names and in many cases the ships eventual fate.

OK so you now have quite a lot to go on. From there you can search various sites (including this one) for photos. Also take a look at the SN Gallery where I have included a list of sites which might be helpful for research.

Get as far as you can and for the ones you get stuck with post again in this thread.

Good luck with your research!

Brian


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## Runrig (Apr 13, 2008)

For the General Steam Nav photographs, look in the book _Birds of the Sea_ by Nick Robins. I think that photographs of all GSN ships are in there.


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## Peter4447 (Jan 26, 2006)

Hi Amanda
These may be a little after your Grandfather's time but www.rhiw.com has ten decent pictures of Prince Lines ships.
For members in general the website mentioned has quite a good ship photo section.
Peter4447(Thumb)


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## Brushy (Dec 2, 2007)

amanda davies said:


> OK, I've got my Grandfathers seamans pouch, which is great!
> it lists all the ships he sailed on by offical number and I've hit the miramar ship index big time and found out the names and dates they were made, when they changed their names and the fate of each. Ive got this down to a fine art now! next step get photos......
> 
> here the problem starts. none of the sites I've found, lists the ship with an offical number, just the name and as many shipping lines made a habit of having three or four ships with the same name, albeit not at the same time, how do I know which is the right ship?? moreover the ship may appear only under one of the names that she may have had. I've got 14 ships with between three and five names a piece.
> ...


Hello, Amanda.
I served on several GSN ships in the 1950's as Engineer. 
If you go to www.simplon.co.uk/GSN.html --- you will find the pages you are looking for. The list of ships postcards of freighters is still under construction but I found pics of some I had served on by clicking on FREIGHTERS.
Now 78 I am retired and live south of Perth, Western Australia.
My ships were "Auk", Fauvette", Greenfinch", "Kingfisher" and Grand Union 's ( GSN subsidiary)Bosworth and Knebworth. Cheers and happy searching. Bob 
[email protected]


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## amanda davies (Apr 3, 2008)

Thanks very much chaps. I have found a copy of the book on the net and sent the info to my dad, who will undoubtedly get a copy as he was also with GSN during the fifties. and is after some photos of the ships he was on ( should keep him entertained for hours) Ive checked out the website for the prince line photos and it has a photo of one of the ships, Egyptian prince. well I think its the right one? I cant access the GSN site from this link, but will try it later. 
thanks for the link to TNA file survivours reports... I didn't know these existed! 
I have a copy of a letter from one of the survivours of the STORK written to my grandfathers brother with a brief account of the sinking. it's a strange little letter really as it reads as though it was observed from another ship. 
I've found it quite difficult to find out a great deal about the Stork and what I have discovered has been through forums.this one, MM and uboat.net. 
The Stork was part of convoy OG-71 which has been written about in the book "nightmare convoy" so clearly someone must have researched her in some detail. the stork being the smallest ship in the convoy didnt have enough fuel to make the intended journey and the convoy was re routed twice, which bought the convoy within range of the spotter planes, thus alerting the U-boats..... I find it more than a little ironic that when she was hit, her cargo was "barrelled motor fuel"!! ( yes she had motor engines) although I have no Idea if this type of fuel would have been any use to her and I am sure that there are strict rules around the use of cargo for personal use. bearing in mind that this was the worst hit out bound convoy of the war, including the deaths of over 20 wrens, I think we could consider this a "slight error of judgement". which is of course why OG-71 was an offical secret for 30 years. 
I havent read the book "birds of the sea" and I wonder if it gives an account of any of the details of what the individual ships actually did ? or if it is more a catalouge of the ships, who built them etc. I know the Stork was partly responsible for the evacuation of the channel isles ( I have letters) but when I asked TNA for the files on the evacuation of the C,I's they replied that this was not available by digital express as the research would take too long. I wonder if anyone here has any knowledge on the subject? maybe researched another ship who helped in the evacuation? or suggest another way of getting the info from TNA. unfortunatly I, like most people ,cant just "pop" down to Kew for the afternoon.

I'm now going to see if I can narrow down some of the ships photos and will come back with a list of those I cant find or cant accurately idenify. hopefully I can narrow it down to a couple, thanks again for the help.


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## Peter4447 (Jan 26, 2006)

Hi again Amanda
If of any interest I have a book entitled 'Semper Fidelis' which was published by the GSNC in 1949 and is an account of the ships and men of the Company between 1924 and 1948. There are 4 pages devoted to the loss of the 'Stork' as related by the 3 survivors and with particular reference to the bravery of the carpenter Stanley Gilbert Smart.
If of interest if you would like to PM with an e-mail address will scan the relevant pages and send a copy to you.
It also states on the night of May 19th 1940 the 'Stork' was attacked by aircraft off Boulogne and the ship's 12pdr brought down one of the aircraft.
Regards
Peter


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## amanda davies (Apr 3, 2008)

I will do that and thanks very much 
you have just answered possibly another question for me. CWGC states that stanley smart recieved the kings commendation for brave conduct. I have been trying to find out what he did to recive this? sadly, Stanley Smart was killed on the return journey on the Petrel. I think that you may well have the answer in the book you have mentioned. 
I have been sent a copy of the report in the London Herald re the Boulogne inccident but frusratingly it's never enough and you question the reporting at the time as the Government played about with the numbers etc.

private message on it's way!


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## Hawkeye (Dec 7, 2005)

Hi Amanda
Another source that would help is the Lloyd's Register of Ships. Some members may have the copies that will help. If not, there's always the British Library.


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## Runrig (Apr 13, 2008)

amanda davies said:


> I havent read the book "birds of the sea" and I wonder if it gives an account of any of the details of what the individual ships actually did ? or if it is more a catalouge of the ships, who built them etc.


This book is the full history of GSN - 134 pages. One chapter is entitled "Such brave little ships" and is an account of their service during the 2nd World War. It is the only book I know that has a photograph of all GSN ships.


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## amanda davies (Apr 3, 2008)

well, I've followed your advice and managed to find images of most of the ships, Ive been looking for with the exception of two.

I will still need to verify the images that I have but think I will be able to do that myself. If I cant, then I will come back to you for your "expert eye" with the ones I cant.

the two ships that are proving difficult are as follows:-

TROJAN PRINCE, 142440
launch date :-27.03.1918
tons:- 5226
launched as WAR PERCH, 1919 trojan prince, 1924 hoosac, 1926 nemanja.

disposal date:- 08.04.1942 sm/t 40.30N/ 64.50W ( U-84 )

the next one is a little more confusing to me.

ALLEGHANY, 145963
launch date:- 29.12,1921
tons:- 3489
mirimar reads as follows:-
[ L as ARABIANA] , 1923 castilian prince, 1926 sicilian prince, 1946 alsacien, 1952 yolac.

disposal date:- 11.11.1963. BU Kalafatyeri.

My father would have sailed on her when she was owned by prince line. according to the red duster site the prince line had another ship with the name .Castilian prince. which she obtained in 1926 . This being the reason that the above ship was changed to the Sicilian prince in the same year, I assume.

I cannot find a photo of either of these ships regardless of the names. If anyone can help me out or point me in the right direction. I would be grateful.


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## robandbarbara (Jul 29, 2005)

Amanda.
Try also the book 'The Navvies'. By Norman L Middlemas - History of the General Steam Navigation Company. ISBN 1 871128 17X  (Shield Publications.
Rob


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## amanda davies (Apr 3, 2008)

thanks for this info. I will pass it on to my father who now seems to be building quite a collection of GSN info.

the two ships that I have mentioned are from the prince line. I wonder if their are any books about prince line that may contain the photos that I need? 

guess I should try and find one, anyone got any suggestions?


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## andysk (Jun 16, 2005)

robandbarbara said:


> Amanda.
> Try also the book 'The Navvies'. By Norman L Middlemas - History of the General Steam Navigation Company. ISBN 1 871128 17X (Shield Publications.
> Rob


Hi Amanda ...

Have you tried Abebooks.co.uk yet ?

The Navvies is currently available via Abebooks.co.uk at £25 - see this URL :

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/B...an=norman+middlemiss&sortby=3&sts=t&x=37&y=16

As is The Prince Line history, but at £40 ! See this URL : 

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/B...an=norman+middlemiss&sortby=3&sts=t&x=37&y=16

Cheers

Andy


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## amanda davies (Apr 3, 2008)

thanks for the info, I will give it a go, see if I can track it down.


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## danube4 (Aug 20, 2005)

*Trojan prince*

Amanda.
I think this is the Trojan Prince you are looking for 1919-24.

IDNo: 1142440
flag: BGR
Tons: 5226
L: 125.6
B: 15.9

1918. War perch.
1919. Trojan Prince.
1924. Hoosac.
1926. Nemanja

Dispoal Data: sm/t 40.30N/64.50W 8.4.42.


Picture courtesy of Flickr.


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## amanda davies (Apr 3, 2008)

Well, I've just had an Email from the archiveist responsible for the records of the ship yard that built her and they dont have a photo or any plans for the Trojan prince, so looks like you guys really can reach the parts that others fail to reach. Outstanding!!!!


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