# Ship Management Companies v Ship Owning Companies.



## 411353 (11 mo ago)

Any views on the foregoing ?


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## loco (Dec 10, 2010)

Even in the 'good old days' of the late 60s/70s (and probably well before that) wasn't it a regular thing to register a ship to effectively a one-ship company, and that company was 'managed' by another which was actually the parent company?

Possibly it was done for, eg, tax or legal liability purposes so if a ship had a debt, another ship of the same 'company' couldn't be arrested until the debt was paid?

It's a long time ago now, but I seem to remember things like 'Owned by XXX steamship company, YYY company as managers' which was really a subsidiary company fully owned by the parent managers.

Martyn


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## 411353 (11 mo ago)

loco said:


> Even in the 'good old days' of the late 60s/70s (and probably well before that) wasn't it a regular thing to register a ship to effectively a one-ship company, and that company was 'managed' by another which was actually the parent company?
> 
> Possibly it was done for, eg, tax or legal liability purposes so if a ship had a debt, another ship of the same 'company' couldn't be arrested until the debt was paid?
> 
> ...


Yes indeed loco. That certainly was true and for all the reasons you outline. In addition I suggest, it was a part of a process called " industrial risk management'. Personally I believe it just made matters worse - but that is just a personal opinion - nothing else.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Go back to the history books. Try Oceanic Steamship Company, better known as White Star Line. In Bermuda there were loads of shipping companies. I remember one names Salient Shipping Company, better known as Blue Star Line. How about Blue Funnel Line? Alfred Holt & Co, Ocean SS Co Ltd, China Mutual Steam Navigation Co. Ltd etc etc This is nothing new.


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## 411353 (11 mo ago)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Go back to the history books. Try Oceanic Steamship Company, better known as White Star Line. In Bermuda there were loads of shipping companies. I remember one names Salient Shipping Company, better known as Blue Star Line. How about Blue Funnel Line? Alfred Holt & Co, Ocean SS Co Ltd, China Mutual Steam Navigation Co. Ltd etc etc This is nothing new.


What's Nothing new ?


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## kewl dude (Jun 1, 2008)

One-ship companies owned every ship I sailed, both on the Great Lakes and offshore. Fleets shared a stack emblem but each of their vessels was an individual company. I was told this was a liability issue if one ship incurred a liability it did not affect the other ships in the fleet. Also every ship I sailed was mortgaged often to banks. There was a framed letter posted under glass on the center-line in the wheelhouse aft bulkhead attesting to this mortgage.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

"There was a framed letter posted under glass on the center-line in the wheelhouse aft bulkhead attesting to this mortgage."

MARITIME LIEN & MORTAGE
This 'Notice' was posted was on every ship. As you said, it was there always.
Stephen


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## 411353 (11 mo ago)

Stephen J. Card said:


> "There was a framed letter posted under glass on the center-line in the wheelhouse aft bulkhead attesting to this mortgage."
> 
> MARITIME LIEN & MORTAGE
> This 'Notice' was posted was on every ship. As you said, it was there always.
> Stephen


Not sure about the Mortgage bit, but the Maritime Lien you mention I only had to exercise once.
That was just before handing command of Ypermachos back to Captain Jim Binnie, on arrival Kashima after a voyage Ijmuiden -Sepetiba Bay - Kashima (via Capetown and Cape of Good Hope)
It was not difficult to do, I advised the agents in advance that on arrival no hatches would be opened until such time as all of my officers and crew (Mainly Phillippino and Indian) were paid in Cash,( in $US), for the full amount of wages they were due. It was a huge amount of money, I forget how much, but many many many multiples of the maximum ($US 5000) I was permitted to carry on board under Denholm company Rules.
*That did the trick*,- on arrival at the discharge berth in the Port of Kashima, the agent came on board with a very large bag of $U.S. The hatches remained closed until each man was paid the full amount due, and then escorted to the nearest Western Union agent, so they could transfer that money to their dependents back home, who had not received their monthly "allotments" for months.
When that was all done, the hatches were opened and discharge of the cargo was commenced. Captain Jim Binnie was picked up from his hotel and transported to the vessel, so I could hand command back to him and fly home for leave.
I had never in my life been placed in that position before - and it was my final command under DSM (H.K.)
I was not sacked - I refused to go back at the end of my leave. By that time, I had other plans for my future.
I also understand that not only were wages not being paid, neither were DSM being paid their ship management fees.


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

kewl dude said:


> One-ship companies owned every ship I sailed, both on the Great Lakes and offshore. Fleets shared a stack emblem but each of their vessels was an individual company. I was told this was a liability issue if one ship incurred a liability it did not affect the other ships in the fleet. Also every ship I sailed was mortgaged often to banks. There was a framed letter posted under glass on the center-line in the wheelhouse aft bulkhead attesting to this mortgage.


Learn something new every day,thank you.


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Taff
Anglo Shipping Ltd (all 8 bulker ships are registered in Cardiff) has registered each of their v/ls as an independent trading entity at Companies House . So in the event of say, *Anglo Jessica *defaulting or otherwise the remainder of the fleet would be outside the clutches of the receivers / lawyers / impounders etc .

Anglo Shipping Ltd appear to be trading very successfully under the Red Ensign.

BW
J


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

jmcg said:


> Taff
> Anglo Shipping Ltd (all 8 bulker ships are registered in Cardiff) has registered each of their v/ls as an independent trading entity at Companies House . So in the event of say, *Anglo Jessica *defaulting or otherwise the remainder of the fleet would be outside the clutches of the receivers / lawyers / impounders etc .
> 
> Anglo Shipping Ltd appear to be trading very successfully under the Red Ensign.
> ...


Have you got shares in them?


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Shush!🥿 

BW
J


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

My ship (Filipino crew) arrived in Fremantle. ITF rep we went to the crew and said that had not been paid. They stopped work on the ship. The OM laid the law down. The owners DID pay the crew through their crew company in Manilla. It was this crew company that was not putting the wages out to the banks and family etc. Work resumed. Went to Bandar Abbas and the headed for Fremantle. On the way we stopped in Colombo for bunkers and crew change. The crew went off to Manilla and out brand new crew arrived on board. All were Liberian nationals, mostly ex Elder Dempster. At Fremantle ITF came on board. They were told to bugg*r off. "This is a Liberian flag vessel and the crew are Liberian!" End of story,


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## 411353 (11 mo ago)

Stephen J. Card said:


> My ship (Filipino crew) arrived in Fremantle. ITF rep we went to the crew and said that had not been paid. They stopped work on the ship. The OM laid the law down. The owners DID pay the crew through their crew company in Manilla. It was this crew company that was not putting the wages out to the banks and family etc. Work resumed. Went to Bandar Abbas and the headed for Fremantle. On the way we stopped in Colombo for bunkers and crew change. The crew went off to Manilla and out brand new crew arrived on board. All were Liberian nationals, mostly ex Elder Dempster. At Fremantle ITF came on board. They were told to bugg*r off. "This is a Liberian flag vessel and the crew are Liberian!" End of story,


That is an interesting case. One that is true I do not doubt. What was the Liberian crew like ?


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

I sailed with Liberian crew on BFs, mostly Barber Blue Sea service (with Wilh. Wilmhelmsen). They were very good, in my opinion. Hard workers and a lot were moslems, so teetotal and no associated problems there.

I once had an overflow when warming through the fuel lines prior to Stand By. A quick call to the Headman and all off watch crew came down (as it was me, they told me!) to clean the FO off the engine. The overtime they "charged" amounted to four cases of soft drinks, mostly Fanta! 

As I said, always willing to work and good natured too. The only "problem" with them was during a crew change/repatriation. They had amassed, and I mean AMASSED, huge amounts of clothes, bikes, televisions, washing machines, you name it! Where it all was stored, I have no idea. And making sure they got through to their flights was challenging - They were forever ducking into Duty Free shops to get a few more things to take home. Good guys, good times.

Rgds.
Dave


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## 411353 (11 mo ago)

makko said:


> I sailed with Liberian crew on BFs, mostly Barber Blue Sea service (with Wilh. Wilmhelmsen). They were very good, in my opinion. Hard workers and a lot were moslems, so teetotal and no associated problems there.
> 
> I once had an overflow when warming through the fuel lines prior to Stand By. A quick call to the Headman and all off watch crew came down (as it was me, they told me!) to clean the FO off the engine. The overtime they "charged" amounted to four cases of soft drinks, mostly Fanta!
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Makko - it's very interesting.
I sailed in some Liberian Vessels long ago, and was in command of a few, but none had a Liberian crew. 
Those were back in the days of "President" Charles Taylor - it felt horrible with no portrait of Queen Elizabeth II looking over my shoulder. Almost frightening in fact.
But rather, just an image of that murdering bastard.
Which from what you have just advised, maybe the reason for no Liberian Crew - considered non desirable at that time, or all massacred perhaps, maybe worse.


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## John Cassels (Sep 29, 2005)

Reckon a phychiatrist could have a field day with this latest contribution from gnash .


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## R651400 (Jun 18, 2005)

#16👳‍♂️... 
If every FoC Liberian register carried a Liberian crew ?
Monrovia and the rest of the country would be empty of any male population !!


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## 411353 (11 mo ago)

R651400 said:


> If every FoC Liberian register carried a Liberian crew ?
> Monrovia and the rest of the country would be empty of any male population !! 👳‍♀️


You may well be not far off the mark on that one


John Cassels said:


> Reckon a phychiatrist could have a field day with this latest contribution from gnash .


*Get Lost John* !
Expect a knock on your door .They're coming to take you away


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

As per Fawlty Towers. Not a field day but he's enough for "A whole conference!"


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Go back to the history books. Try Oceanic Steamship Company, better known as White Star Line. In Bermuda there were loads of shipping companies. I remember one names Salient Shipping Company, better known as Blue Star Line.


Stephen, I will agree to that, I remember seeing a large carved plaque on one ship with Salient Shipping Bermuda, when I was with BSL. Old Vestey had shipping companies all over the world, some bearing the same funnel ( an Italian company I think) som coaster, then there was Lion Shipping based in Singapore or Hong Kong, you sign on with them and you are classed as self employed and they can just sever you with a dot of the fountain pen, then Austasia Line out of Singapore with junior ranks Sing Chinese. Didn't seem to make any difference if you had a BSL contract or not, when they were shedding, but the blue eyes they kept a bit longer and changed the officers and crew to foreign, so there was only a Master, Cheng and possibly Frosty that were BSL employees.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

411353 said:


> That is an interesting case. One that is true I do not doubt. What was the Liberian crew like ?


The Liberian crew we got were fine. All ex Elder Dempster. No problem. Had to teach them a few bit and pieces and then that ran with it.


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