# German civil ships in WW2



## Gijsha (Mar 2, 2015)

It would seem to me that there are relatively few pictures of German mercantile marine ships in the period 1939-1945 in the SN gallery. What could be the reason for that? There are many photos of ships belonging to the allied countries, usually painted in 'war-grey' livery.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Good question. I suspect most of the axis vessels were laid in home ports or interred. Baltic would be busy or even the coastal runs to Norway etc but I guess would not be trading anywhere overseas. Photos? Probably ship photography was under tight security. Anyhow, good question.

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Article first published in the Daily Telegraph, Sept 8, 1939. 


This statement was made in a Ministry of Information communique issued at 9.28 last night. The communique stated: 


“There are no major naval war operations to report. Attacks upon enemy submarines continue, and an attack on a mine-laying submarine is now believed to have been completely successful. 


“German merchant ships are being steadily driven from the seas. They are using every artifice and every expedient of concealment to avoid capture, and are taking refuge in neutral harbours. 


“It is reported that 54 German merchant ships, totalling more than 180,000 tons, are now in the port of Vigo. Nine German ships, totalling more than 50,000 tons, are in Japanese ports. 


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“From the German merchant vessel Inn, a Norddeutscher-Lloyd steamer of 2,867 tons which was captured on Tuesday, 35 passengers and crew were taken off, including one woman and two cages of rare birds. It seems that the crew of the Inn brought their ship to a sinking condition before she could be boarded.” 

R.A.F over North Sea 

A bulletin issued by the Ministry of Information at 7.40 last night states: 

“Aircraft of the Royal Air Force employed in reconnaissance activity over a wide area, including the North Sea. 

“No major naval operations to report. Attacks on German submarines continue. In at least one case success appears probable. 

“German submarine attacks on shipping are taking place in various localities, and the losses reported are: 

“Ss Bosnia, 2,401 tons; 

“Ss Royal Sceptre 4,853 tons; 

“Ss Corinthic, 4,823 tons, was attacked but was not damaged, and safely reached her port.” 

The Corinthic is owned by Sir WH Cockerline, Hull. 

The Royal Sceptre belongs to Hall Brothers Steamship Co, Newcastle. 

The torpedoing of the Bosnia off Portugal was reported on Tuesday. 

The Ministry of Home Security announced yesterday, through the Ministry of Information, that there had been no enemy air action against the United Kingdom during the period from six pm. on Wednesday till six am yesterday.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

I believe there were roughly 400 ocean-going vessels in the German merchant navy. 75% were abroad in 1939.


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## Gijsha (Mar 2, 2015)

According to the book "Die deutsche Handelsflotte 1939-1945": At the beginning of the Second World War, the German merchant fleet had 2416 ships with 4.4 million GRT. At the end of the war she was more or less tattered. Only 420 ships with around 1 million GRT were scattered in ports, many of them badly damaged.
The authors have lovingly collected the stories of all merchant ships that have been caught somewhere by the outbreak of the war. And many were surprised. The preparations of the German Navy seem to have been bad not only in the armed forces!


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

Interesting blog? The site is in the english language, and i sjspect draws the seamen of that tongue to meet and chat over common subjects? A lot of correspondents i suspect are of 
The Older generation firing on all cylinders. With a keen interest to know now in the comuter age, and concord, and since the advent of possible spa e travel, what it islike now at sea, and to have a career travelling the oceans?
I hope from a personal interst point lf view that we wish english remains the language of the majority:however,i am aware a ships crew of today is mu!tinational and i suspect the language and points of interest may change radically to encouage dialogue and social intercouse.
What hapened in ww1 and ww2 is of interest to all us seamen to prevent 
And help avoid any misunderstandkngs of intent!
I wish to be aWare of history,and bitter sweet human relationships.
I trust i have not been too pompous.? If i have i apologise sincerely


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

just a footnote to this 'blog' in the late 50's when I was still at secondary school, and tv was a novelty, I remember [hazely] a film in black and white about shipping off southern Africa {west and east-ports of angolia and mozambic -Lorenzo marques and a port in angola?? Portugal was neutral in WWII], about a german armed merchant cruiser and how she sank the tonnage, but picked up survivors of the engagement, once they had taken to the life boats'!!


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Gijsha said:


> According to the book "Die deutsche Handelsflotte 1939-1945": At the beginning of the Second World War, the German merchant fleet had 2416 ships with 4.4 million GRT. At the end of the war she was more or less tattered.!



I guess the majority of that number were coastal vessel?


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## capkelly (Feb 13, 2006)

Roger Jordan's "The Worlds Merchant Ships 1939" lists the ships of each Shipping Company unfortunately it does not have tables. I counted 722 Ocean going German ships in `1939, at wars end 26 were scuttled with surplus munitions and 14 were returned to owners the rest were losses from all causes, including seizure. There is a list of the losses with the reasons many were sunk -raised and sunk again etc.


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

The Scandinavians sailed for the Germans, some were forced to, some not. I do not know how many, or how many from other allied or occupied countries, but there were a number. I addition comes the ships apropriated by the Germans, renamed and given a German crew. Those that survived were repatriated after the war, and so may not be presented as Grerman ships during WW2 i the SN galleries.. 

The Swedes needed the income from their export of iron ore and ball bearings to Germany to go on, and some of it were carried on Swedish keels. In a story in Swedish magazine "Longitude" (number 28, 1992) a Swedish sailor tells of his experiences in the Swedish Salen owned Lillie Mathiessen in 1942, sailing in a convoi from Gavle towards occupied Rotterdam by way of Cuxhaven with iron ore. A troopship in the convoi was torpedoed, and the German "control officer" forced the Swedish captain to sail right through the mass of men in the water. (German Wikipedia entry on the Lilie Matthiessen: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillie_Matthiessen_(Schiff)

Regarding photos, there are two of ships in a German convoi illustrating above mentioned magazine article, but the ships in them are not given names.


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## John Rogers (May 11, 2004)

In one word Blockade, by sea and air.


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Surely it is bleeding obvious? it was called blockade.


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

The question was asked: given the existence of a German merchant fleet in the war years, why are their appearance in the SN gallery so scarce? That "blockade" should be "the bleeding obvious" answer to that is not bleeding obvious to me. That this is a British site with an overwhelmingly British membership, having little or no experience of, and therefore little interest in those ships, sounds like a more reasonable explanation to this member. (Jester)

But I suppose you two to be answereing the lead question in this thread, and maybe it is rather my furtive, fumbling and stumbling post #10 , you are responding to, and then you are of course both completely excused, and this with my most humble apologies even. (Though, I still do not see the connection. (EEK))


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## CAPT.BOB (Jun 26, 2008)

I sailed on the "Oakmore" when 2/0 with Furness Withy.She was formerly the "Levante" owned by Atlas-Levante Line AG.Until 1945 she was used by the German Govt.as a troop carrier to E.Prussia and later on the Norwegian coast
She had an ice breaker bow and was steered by push buttons rather than a traditional wheel.She was broken up in 1967 I think.


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

Here's the Levante in the Ships Nostalgia gallery section. https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/226055/title/levante/cat/510 Not war-painted, but still...


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## funnelstays (Nov 19, 2008)

*Modified Charlie*

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/d/de~1945.gif
This was the ensign on German vessels from 1945 to 1949.


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## Sully (Apr 26, 2009)

I have relatives living in Munich, and about 10 years ago purchased a hardcover book: "Rettungsaktion Ostsee 1944/1945" (rescue operation east sea 44-45) on a visit.

It has 4 sections 1st civilian, 2nd Kriegsmarine, 3rd Luftwaffe and 4th small craft.

The book would only cover Baltic vessels, but has approximately 1000 vessels with year built, origin, tonnage and disposition with either a picture or a drawing if a class of vessel. A quick look indicates well over half under 1000 tons, so protected water craft.

A kind of German "Dunkirk" escaping from the Red army.

There are approximately 400 civilian craft listed. Some of the other sections include civilian vessels pressed into military service.

I'm sure the Norway coast vessels are not included nor the captured vessels from other occupied countries.

The author is Martin Schmidtke and is selling used for 56 euros, I paid 20! Much better than the stock market!


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Dear Stein have you ever heard of the M.V. Altmark? if not read about it on Google. While your at it read the 'protest that your government made to the UK because we had the temerity to board her and rescue about 300 British merchant seamen whilst the ship was in Norwegian waters..


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

gordonarfur said:


> Dear Stein have you ever heard of the M.V. Altmark? if not read about it on Google. While your at it read the 'protest that your government made to the UK because we had the temerity to board her and rescue about 300 British merchant seamen whilst the ship was in Norwegian waters..


Several hundred times perhaps, not a few of them here on SN. The first time I heard, or rather read, of the Altmark incident, was probably in a double page spread in British comic "Eagle," which I devoured in my primary school years. The protest mentioned was made when Norway was still neutral and trying desperately to win time to arm the country. And based on international law the Altmark had the right to pass through Norwegian territorial waters, some claim even with prisoners aboard, when flying a state flag. A desultory inspection had been made, and the ship declared free of prisoners. The fact that Norway did not militarily defend its neutrality made Hitler rage, and served as an argument for the invasion of Norway. And btw, the fjord where the action took place was Jøssingfjord, making Vidkun Quisling coin the word "Jøssing" for an England-friendly Norwegian, and so a traitor to the Nazi rule. It was accepted as such by the Norwegian resistance and came to be generally used as word for an anti-Nazi hero. 

No, the episode does not put Norway in any heroic light, failing to find the prisoners in the inspections made sounds strange, given their large number. But given the foregoing happenings, the government protest was a mere formality. A comprehensive but concise recount of the incident here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/72/a4507472.shtml 

And I find this as irrelevant to the number of pictures of German merchant ships in war service during the 1939-45 period posted on SN, as I found your earlier "bleeding obvious" blockade. In case you feel that this demands further retaliation, I suggest you try kicking me for some opinion I have uttered somewhere, or some act that I could at least be suspected of having participated in.


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

So based on "international law" the Altmark had a right to sail through Norwegian territorial waters with 300 plus british seamen imprisoned in its hold? in war international law is,nt worth the paper it is written on. You Norwegian trolls should have exercised a little intelligence and assisted the allies to effect the rescue. Did you or any other trolls up there honestly believe that the huns would honour international treaties? and did,nt you realise you were next on the hitler menu or did you think another piece of paper would protect you?


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

I will suggest that the boarding of the Altmark was done wholly without your aid, and say that I find no indication that you could yourself represent Britain in a way that would make those that shared your membership identity feel further gloriously elevated...


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Deck boys should be seen but not heard q.e.d.


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## Frank P (Mar 13, 2005)

gordonarfur, I have just had a look at your profile and the "about me" section is empty/missing, have you ever worked on a ship?

Cheers Frank


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## Gijsha (Mar 2, 2015)

The discussion is derailing and becoming off-topic. Please stick to my original question.


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## JustWin (Sep 21, 2018)

Frank P said:


> gordonarfur, I have just had a look at your profile and the "about me" section is empty/missing, have you ever worked on a ship?
> 
> Cheers Frank


 If you read his previous posts, you will find he has. (Thumb)


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

> gordonarfur
> 
> Deck boys should be seen but not heard q.e.d.


 I am getting tired of this. Can we all end it?

Let us ask what caused this derailing of the thread. When would “blockade” be a sensible answer to the thread-initiating question? I suppose when the question is reformulated as: why did we not see German merchant ships trading very far from home during the war? And, admittedly, the answers given by earlier posters, me included, could perhaps be read as if that had been the question. To which one can add that it is obvious that many of us skip the reading of earliest posts when latching onto a thread. And finally, yes I could have made my criticism a little less short and unconditional and refrained from pouring it on with the sarcasm when a bit of anger resulted.

So is there any mysticism surrounding the alleged shortage of German merchant ships from the war in years the SN gallery?


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Frank not only did I spend 5 years in the MN but prior to that I spent 2 years in the British army so I did my bit for blighty. Not keen on spraying my personal details on the web and it will stay that way.


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

stein said:


> I will suggest that the boarding of the Altmark was done wholly without your aid, and say that I find no indication that you could yourself represent Britain in a way that would make those that shared your membership identity feel further gloriously elevated...


Good one, Stein, good one.(Thumb)


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## Frank P (Mar 13, 2005)

gordonarfur said:


> Frank not only did I spend 5 years in the MN but prior to that I spent 2 years in the British army so I did my bit for blighty. Not keen on spraying my personal details on the web and it will stay that way.


Gordon, thanks for the reply, I am also not keen on spraying my personal details on the web. 

Cheers Frank


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

And so far, we have gotten nowhere towards answering the original question... Maybe we should be proud of that, and just try to keep it going, any which way, like me here... I think the gallery section has been the most impressive part of SN in such endeavours. How many comments did that oildrum in the toilet get? (Picture posted by Coastie I believe.) And the Australian crumpet in Sydney harbour? Remember those ugly eggs? I think I remember the end posting in that one, or what should have been: "Two eggs!? - bang them in the micro!" Pushing far enough we could perhaps come up with a finale to equal that one.


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

One wartime user of the Baltic/Ostsee was the Finnish merchant marine, of whom my son-in-law's father was a member. He had a few interesting tales of that period and, a couple of humourous anecdotes of visits to German ports. Too much to drink and too loud in voicing their opinions of the leadership, on one occassion; fortunately saved by their waiter pointing out that they had aroused the interest of two sinister looking characters.

What I gathered from SN and other sources is that the Germans placed orders with shipyards in occupied countries, for merchant tonnage, while trusting only its own shipbuilders for naval vessels. So it seems only reasonable that such tonnage might be mainly used in Baltic waters, as well as coastal routes to Norwegian ports The Baltic was the only secure area for Admiral Doenitz to have his U-Boat training program.


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## Alistair Macnab (May 13, 2008)

*WWII German Merchant Marine...*

The tsmv "SPEYBANK" one of the 21 motorships built and engined by Harland and Wolff in Glasgow in 1926 of 5154 GRT , and with twin Burmeister and Wain diesel engines, she was captured by the Germans in 1941 in the Indian Ocean and was used first as a minelayer after conversion in Bordeaux and occupied mainly off the South African coast.

She was noticed and challenged by naval vessels on at least two occasions but passed herself off as one of the Bank Line ships in the Bay of Bengal to South America regular services. Being one of 17 identical ships she was allowed to proceed on passage. By this time renamed "DOGGERBANK" (who says Germans have no sense of humour?) she then sailed to south-east asia where she loaded a full cargo of essential war supplies including bulk latex a cargo for which she had been fitted when new.

On the way back to Germany she was intercepted by a German submarine also in 1941 and sunk on the assumption that she was a Bank Boat!


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Alistair - thanks for the post it has made my day and answers the question why the huns had so few ships at sea during ww2. Silly buggers helped us by sinking some of their own, I always said admiral donut was a twerp.


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

Sadly, those in charge of the Nortraship fleet never felt empowered by the British navy's sucess in the fight against him to dismiss Admiral Dönitz as a “twerp.” One is reminded of President Bush II calling the Twin Towers destruction the act of "cowards." The evil behind that act of terrorism in spite, the incongruity of that designation made him sound rather like a "twerp," - downright silly and insignificant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My knowledge of the activities of the German merchant navy in WWII is deficient (so I have ordered a book on the subject: Steinweg, Günther: Die deutsche Handelsflotte im zweiten Weltkrieg. Aufgaben und Schicksal.), but I have the impression that its tasks were somewhat different from the British and their allies. That it more often undertook operations that would be strictly naval responsibility with the Allies, and so carried a greater likelihood of fatal consequences. I will leave that hanging, but invite those more knowledgeable to comment.

Germany, I will mention is not an island, and had early on in the war conquered much of the countries around it. In addition, Hitler was adamant that the failure of Germany in the Great War was due to a lack of self –sufficiency, which is why he needed more “Lebensraum.” And one might suppose that a strive for this self-sufficiency had been going on for a while when he started the war. When the ability to produce synthetic rubber and make petrol out of coal were achieved, I do not know, but one might suppose that the search for this ability began early, and have been part of a comprehensive search in the same line. 

As for Gijsha’s question, I will claim that the British in general, and the SN membership in particular (there are exceptions), are more respectful of enemy soldiers, and those who in other capacities have served their enemies, than most other nationalities. And there has been a German member, Sebastian, who have regularly posted photographs of German WWII vessels. And as far as I can observe, his postings have attracted much interest, and the good-will and courtesy shown him in no way been inadequegate. Of course Gijsha may never have considered his question as formulated to demand such considerations, in which case I offer my apologies both to him and the SN membership at large.


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

The Gallery is the best example of positive contributions from our continental members. Gijsha and Manfred (Bootsman) being the most prolific among others.

Perhaps the most newsworthy activity of German ships, in the Baltic, was the evacuation of wounded soldiers and civilians fleeing from the advancing Red Army's encirclement of East Prussia, from ports such as Pillau, Hela and Gotenhaven, during January/February 1945. The total numbers exceeded 2,000,000, making it the greatest seaborne evacuation ever. The Wilhelm Gustloff, Steuben and Goya are well known because of their tragic sinking but, there were others. Some of our members sailed on one or two, post-war, when they had Empire prefixes, i.e. Empire Ken for one.


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Stein - don,t ask me, ask the twerps at the admiralty who were moribund when it came to lateral thinking.


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

All I know for sure is that they quit calling at Liverpool during those days.


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## Dartskipper (Jan 16, 2015)

German built ships sailed under the Red Duster in WWII, the Anglo Saxon tanker Horn Shell being one of them. My Dad was an apprentice deck officer on her in 1939/40. She had been built in 1931, and was sunk in the Med in 1941 by an Italian sub.

In the first years of the war, Germany received supplies of crude oil courtesy of Texaco, whose chairman Torkild Rieber controversially, and possibly illegally, had also supplied Franco during the Spanish Civil War.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torkild_Rieber


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

Not only is there a lack of photos of german ships taken during the war... when you think of it there is also a lack of photos of allied ships taken during the war... apart from the aerial photos taken by the canadian and US airforces...

Probably a lot to do with photography of ships and port instalations being... how you say... discouraged.


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## Dartskipper (Jan 16, 2015)

Cisco said:


> Not only is there a lack of photos of german ships taken during the war... when you think of it there is also a lack of photos of allied ships taken during the war... apart from the aerial photos taken by the canadian and US airforces...
> 
> Probably a lot to do with photography of ships and port instalations being... how you say... discouraged.


Quite so Cisco, although I was lucky enough to find some prints of ships that my dad had sailed in for one of his birthdays. Narkunda, San Cipriano and Empire Traveller were three, although apparently there are no photos of Empire Norseman. The two tankers are definitely in wartime rig, with anti torpedo nets and escape rafts rigged. I remember using the services of a photographic shop in Exeter that had access to various archives.


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

May I hazard a guess... the photos were taken in either the US or Australia?

My father spent most of the war on the tanker John A Brown.... at some stage she had a spar deck fitted for aircraft.... never been able to find her in that config... in fact never found a wartime photo of her.


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

Dartskipper said:


> German built ships sailed under the Red Duster in WWII, the Anglo Saxon tanker Horn Shell being one of them. My Dad was an apprentice deck officer on her in 1939/40. She had been built in 1931, and was sunk in the Med in 1941 by an Italian sub.
> 
> In the first years of the war, Germany received supplies of crude oil courtesy of Texaco, whose chairman Torkild Rieber controversially, and possibly illegally, had also supplied Franco during the Spanish Civil War.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that post, Dartskipper. That Torkild Rieber lived a life that few others could dream of. A real sailing ship seaman from what I have found on Wiki and such; in command of a French deep-sea sailing ship at only age 18 - if Wiki can be believed. Regardless, his later life was full of accomplishments and he would have suffered a less negative press if only he had supplied the Comintern with oil, instead of Franco's Nationalists. Funny old world.


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## Dartskipper (Jan 16, 2015)

Cisco said:


> May I hazard a guess... the photos were taken in either the US or Australia?
> 
> My father spent most of the war on the tanker John A Brown.... at some stage she had a spar deck fitted for aircraft.... never been able to find her in that config... in fact never found a wartime photo of her.


I don't know where the photo of Narkunda was taken, but she was in Australia and also involved with the "diplomat swap" bringing British diplomats home from Japan, picking them up in South Africa. San Cipriano and Empire Traveller spent their war years in the North Atlantic theatre. The one of San Cipriano could have been taken when she was being filmed for her part in the film "San Demetrio, London." She was fresh out of refit on the Tyne when the film was made. Empire Traveller was the first tanker to unload in Cherbourg after the Normandy landings. She had been built in 1943, so didn't have many miles under her keel.


Regards.


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

Of the nearly 4.5 million GRT large merchant fleet Germany possessed before the war, about 3 million were lost. That is about 66 percent. About 3000 German sailors lost their lives. After Germany’s capitulation 446 ships of together 1.262.617 GRT were seized by the allies. (Not counting the ships returned to their foreign owners, nor fishing vessels) Of which UK received 123, the USSR 138, Norway 58, Hollandand 30, and a bit down in the list of recipients, USA 14. Further 34 ships, on together 132.606 GRT were filled with gas ammunition and sunk. Finally, 47 ships still under build at the time of the capitulation were handed over as reparations at their launch.
In the book I am quoting from, the cir***stances of every loss is detailed, but they are not summed up as regards the relative amount lost to mines, bombing, torpedoes, and warship guns, etc. The impression is though that bombing from aircraft played a much greater role in in German losses than it did in the losses of Allied merchant shipping. 
Below are some links to photographs of bombed ships in Hamburg.
https://www.mopo.de/hamburg/kriegsende-als-hamburgs-hafen-in-truemmern-lag-26295552
https://www.abendblatt.de/fotogaler...-im-Chaos-Als-der-Hafen-in-Truemmern-lag.html
https://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/article210100343/So-sah-der-Hamburger-Hafen-vor-70-Jahren-aus.html 
And here are some others. Click on the “bild nummern” far left within the green box, from “BA1575” and downwards:
http://hamburg-bildarchiv.de/0330549e2110bec01/0330549f750a1c401/index.html


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