# Help requested with DEMS Weaponry: "The Pig Trough" and "The Pillar Box"



## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

*Help requested with DEMS Weaponry: "The Pig Trough" and "The Pillar Box"*

I am doing some research into weapons used by DEMS gunners and would appreciate any information members may have about two rocket launching weapons used relatively early in WW2 that were given the codenames or nicknames "The pillar box" and "The pig trough".

I have got a lot of information through Google searches so don't need any help on that score, but I hope that someone on the site has some photos showing these weapons, some references in books etc. 

I have managed to find a single photo of what I believe to be a later version of "The pillar box" but none at all of "The pig trough".

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

I should have mentioned that doing a search on "pig trough" on Google is not very helpful as it just comes up with thousands of hits about politicians and them having their noses in one.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Hi Brian,
The defence weapons you refer to were only used on ships during the first two to three years of the war then removed from ships.
During that same time merchant ships had PAC and PAM.
PAC -Parachute and cable. Defence against low flying aircraft.
A large rocket [usually installed on wings of the bridge where the officer on watch could fire it] was fired into the air as the aircraft was attacking and a parachute opened and attached to it was a long length of wire.If the wire fouled the aircraft it could cause it to crash.
PAM -Parachute and mine. Similar weapon as PAC but attached to the end of the wire was a grenade. If the aircraft fouled the wire the drag of the parachute would draw the grenade up to the aircraft and explode.
When balloons were introduced to ships the PAM and PAC were removed much to the relief of the officer who had to fire off the rocket.
Regards
Stan


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## teb (May 23, 2008)

Stan- Isailed on the Glaucus in 1944 and we had rockets mounted on the boat deck they operated the same as your Pac and Pam rockets but were known to us as Fam and J rockets. Not to sure if they were not more dangerous to those that fired them rather than those they were fired at!!!!! regards Teb.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Teb -you surprise me.Could they have been retained on that ship as you were trading East in the Japanese war zone where no balloons were used?
Balloons were flown much higher than the height the rockets could reach.
Regards Stan


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Brian,
In his book "The Fighting Tramps" Bernard Edwards describes a "Pillar Box" as an early form of multiple rocket launcher. this seems to be borne out by this from TNA
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...orttype=Reference&image1.x=31&image1.y=15&j=1

Pig Trough was a slang term
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...hdGcCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

I was thinking maybe that this refered to the various forms of Holman Projector which all accounts was a bit of a pig to use.

regards
Roger


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## sidsal (Nov 13, 2007)

I have 2 dogeared certificates saying that I am capable of taking charge of the defensive armament of a merchant ship !! Bit rich really as I was only 16 when I got them after a gunnery course at HMS Eaglet in Salthouse dock Liverpool and at the naval gunnery school on Ainsdale sands - near Southport.
I got sixpence a day for this qualification and this was most useful as my wage was £3 10 shillings a month as apprentice.
Now we had a "pillar box" on the poop - mounted on a raised platform. The gunlayer ( Maritime Regiment RA) was inside the contraption and I was 2nd man. It could be rotated and the rocket frames aimed up and down. My job was to station myself under the platform at the phone and after firnig to climb the ladder to see if all the rockets had gone. There were 2 rows of rockets on each side and the gunlayer could fire the outer or the inner rockets together. When they were fired the rockets clashed against each other and went off in all sorts of directions. Once , in the Meddy, rockets had been fired and I climbed the short ladder to peer over an just then the other rockets went off and I prompt;y slid back down with my hair and eyebrows well singed. 
There were also those pretty useless rockets fired from the bridge with wire attached and also a pipe on each wing where a hand grenade could be dropped and a footpedal shot it skyward.. Never saw one used !
However on passage from P Said to Sicily where our captain was Commodore of a 6 ship convoy rigged with barrage balloons we had a funny incident. Just before dusk Capt had hoisted a signal telling all ships to maintain strict blackout, a DEMS gunner, on changing watch tripped over a wire and sent a rocket skyward which blossomed into a Very light flare which decended slowly and lit the convoy up like daylight. The Capt clasped his hands over his head in frustration. The balloons had long gone - deflated and broken loose. They went skywards after giving us a display of bouncing on the waves and lifting up. They went hgher and higher expanding until they burst and came flopping down lime elephant skins - into the sea.
I was sightsetter on the 4.7" gun - great excitment when we fired at a periscope - but that's another tale !!


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Thank you all for your responses.

Stan: This research is following through the information you sent me about your friend the DEMS gunner which I have nearly completed. I found references to the other weapons you refer to and I think you will be interested in what I found out.

Roger: Thank you for the references - I can't get to Kew to look this up at present but it sounds like the right thing - maybe when I retire I will have time. I think the epithet "Pig Trough" was a semi-official name rather than a nickname though - well at least one of the sources I found implied that it was - but it would require a major exploration of the papers of the group that designed all these devices to be sure. Again it would take a lot of time. But thanks anyway

Sidsal: Thank you for your information about the "Pillar Box". I have one photo of this and will let you know when my research is complete as you may be interested in taking a look at it. I don't envy you checking whether this contraption had fired all its rockets! And how to follow this up? Remove by hand and hope the bloody thing didn't go off I presume! Scary stuff.

What would be really good is if someone can provide a description of the "Pig Trough" and how it worked as it seems unlikely that there are any extant photos other than buried in archives. I can't really imagine what this thing looks like from the name whatsoever. I know that the prototype Pillar Box device was shaped like a pillar box - but a pig trough firing rockets is beyond me. Maybe it was something as simple as a U-shaped tray you laid the rockets in and angled it towards the target?


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## Peter4447 (Jan 26, 2006)

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Holman Projector (or something similar) for firing hand grenades at aircraft was operated by steam from the boiler room which was fine unless the Chief was miserly with the use of his steam, so that when the grenade was 'fired' instead of shooting skywards it was likely to just reach the top of the pipe before falling on the deck!
I have no idea as to whether this was true or was just a 'tale' (same as the one about the Sten gun which was only supposed to work when you laid it down) so perhaps one of our members knows the real answer.
Peter(Smoke)


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Thankyou Brian,
Like Sid I also had gunnery courses and have a Merchant Seaman's Gunnery Certificate for which I received sixpence per day while on ships articles.
I did not have instruction on any other type of weapon as did Sid.
I have posted a little more info to you from Alick -regarding the different types of guns being manned by RN or Army units.
Regards
Stan


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## teb (May 23, 2008)

stan mayes said:


> Teb -you surprise me.Could they have been retained on that ship as you were trading East in the Japanese war zone where no balloons were used?
> Balloons were flown much higher than the height the rockets could reach.
> Regards Stan


Stan- actually the voyage in question was UK/India/South /West coast Africa.Also mounted on the boat deck was the pipe and grenade operated by steam as mentioned by Peter.If my memory serves me right our main armament mounted on the stern was a Japanese made gun!!!!! Teb


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## sidsal (Nov 13, 2007)

What interesting stuff you guys come up with !
The grenade thrower that I remeber was just a pipe welded to the front of the bridge with a foot pedal which released a strong spring. I believe also that there was a rack of grenades and the idea was to take out the pin, drop the grenade in the pipe and press the pedal and propel it skywards. Never saw it used - sounds competely useless. On the dock in Liverpool there was a building called "The Dome" - and it was just that - like a big upturned dish.
Inside in themiddle of the loor was an AA gun. A film was thrown onto the ceiling of Stuka dive bombers with sound effects. You fired at them with this gun and a yellow spot showed on the ceiling which te gunner couldn't see but those to the side could. It showed whether the gunney was accurate. Also there was a shelf around the dome where suddenly a model of an E-boat would appear and you would fire at it. A beam of light went from the gun and ball bearings were fired and looked just like tracer bullets.
For a 16 year old this Dome was just like being in a fairground shooting gallery - most enjoyable !


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Hi Sid,
Similar instruction was given on Chrysanthemum moored near the Embankment London..I had 5 days there then 3 days at Sheerness with RN units on 4 inch and Ack Ack guns.
Often had a one day refresher course at Sheerness while on leave and just prior to joining Dolabella for the Normandy Operations I had a 4 days intensive course.
Three times the normal amount of armaments had been installed on the ship and we carried about 15 DEMS gunners.
Regards
Stan


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## sidsal (Nov 13, 2007)

Hi Stan
Great times what !! I found the lectures on gunnery where you straddle the target and halve the settings until you reach the target interesting. I would have liked to be on the Normandy landings. My great friend who was on the Conway with me is secretary of teh N.Wales Normandt Vets. He left later than me and went on the QM to the US as a pssenger to collect a Liberty shi which went straight to Normandy. I arrived in L'pool on D-day after 9 month trip out east and then to the US.
Best regards
Sid
PS Just after the war I was in a T2 belonging to Esso and we took a chap on a voyage to Aruba and back who was newly appointed electrical superintendent.
He had been awrded £20K for perfecting gyro control for guns on battleships. Before then they could only fire twice on a rolling ship wheras with gyro control the gun stayed on target whislt the ship rolled about it !


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## geobro (Mar 21, 2008)

*DEMS Weaponry*

Like some other members I too, as a 16 years old, had the thrilling experience of the Dome and live ammunition practice on a beach blasting away at a drone target towed behind a 'plane; also a floating target on the water. In my case a major attraction was the ten shillings subsistence allowance! A couple of weeks later I fronted again, hoping for another ten bob; however the RN gunnery instructor recognized me and sent me packing!
I qualified on the Marlin, Hotchkiss and Lewis, but was too small to operate the Oerlikon.


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## charles henry (May 18, 2008)

geobro said:


> I qualified on the Marlin, Hotchkiss and Lewis, but was too small to operate the Oerlikon.


Yes that ten shillings was an incentive, took the course every time I ran out of money. The Oerlikon was a fun gun to fire as long as you didnt put your eye against the lovely soft rubber eyepiece, if you did you got a real shiner.


Regarding Benjidog's question, I did on one occasion (At a course in Addrosan)
seen the thing with layers of rockets on either side, however did not see it fired as it "was not working that day"

All merchant ships were fitted with FAM. and on the Tasmania we also had a huge box kite to be used as a barrage balloon, one day we tried it, dropped it over the side, it then jerked up in to air and wound the cable round the mast......

Someone mentioned the "grenade launcher" type thing. worked on compressed air, we had fun one day firing beer cans full of water into the air, they all fell back down on the deck.....

On one vessel we had three depth charges on the after end, we had an occasion to try them, one was rolled over the side, it damaged our propeller,
but that is story in itself.

Only weapons that gave one a feeling of confidence was either an orlekan or the 303 marlins usually mounted in twin formation. The four pounder mounted aft was discounted because the DEMS chaps never got to practice them.

Oh yes and I sailed on one vessel with a hurrican mounted on a rocket rail device mounted diagonally across our bow. We had one pilot and the launching crew on board. If we were attacked by aircraft we would shoot him into the sky, he would shoot down the enemy and then either make for land if in range or bail out and we would pick him up.

There was a lot of wishfull thinking and plain stupidity during that period...

de chas(Pint)


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## sidsal (Nov 13, 2007)

Glad to see there are still some old salts about !! I was on a Brocklebank ship called the Matheran and she had Asdic fitted ( and an operator) and also depth charges on the poop. On passage Colombo to Calcutta we got a strong signal and passed right over whatever it was. The master would not drop the depth charges and they were taken off. The Asdic thing that stuck out under the ship was left extended by mistake when we entered drydock and it was ruined. This also was taken off.
( Ships with a fighter plane on a catapault were called CAM ships I believe)


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## sidsal (Nov 13, 2007)

In the eastern Meddy in convoy we sighted a periscope and went to action stations. I was sight setter on the 4.7 gun on the poop and received my instructions from the 2nd Mate on the bridge who was the gunnery officer via headphones. We fired a few rounds at where we thought it was and did some turns which wound the phone cable round the gun which was being swivelled to keep on target. In the end the headphone was pulled off my ears just as a shot was fired. I was deaf for 3 weeks. In the meantime a Liberty ship next to us fired across us and shattered some awning spars.
After it was all over we saw a chap go up in a bosun's chair up the funnel of the Liberty ship and paint a submarine below several outlines of planes.
Nuff said !


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## charles henry (May 18, 2008)

sidsal said:


> ( Ships with a fighter plane on a catapault were called CAM ships I believe)


That is correct, I remember asking the pilot (During one of his sober moments, he had a private stock of booze) "why cam?" His reply was something to the effect that it was the type of nickers these pilots wore which allowed more room when on taking off they sh....t themselves.
We shot him off prior to reaching Gibralter and watching the antics and almost false starts as the bow rose and fell in a heavy swell - I tend to believe he was being honest.

Funny - sometimes I cant remember my phone number but remember stuff like that....de chas(Pint)


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## jimmyc (Dec 28, 2005)

*pig trough*









The Pig Trough launcher designed by Nevil Shute held 14 two-inch rockets for firing vertically against air attack.
Two anti-aircraft devices, known respectively as "Pig Trough" and "F.A.M’s". Both were fired by pressing electrical switches on the wings of the Bridge.
"Pig Trough" was a rack of fourteen 2" diameter rockets. Mounted vertically in two rows of seven projectiles. The head of each rocket contained an explosive charge equal to that of a hand grenade. The rack was slung in gimbals, so that no matter how much the ship rolled the rockets always pointed straight up. As the rockets could not be aimed in the true sense, "Pig Trough" was a purely defensive weapon, and was only of use against an aircraft flying directly over the ship. 

In the event of such a happening, an officer had to judge the right moment to press the firing button to launch the fourteen-rocket salvo straight up and hopefully, at least one of the rockets would strike the enemy plane. 

I believe that some ships did have success with "Pig Troughs" and it would have come in handy in dealing with the dive-bombing attacks on the "Lycaon".


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## jimmyc (Dec 28, 2005)

*I searched google images pig trough rockets*
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?...=/images?q=pig+trough+rocket&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=G


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Thanks Jimmyc. I have been looking at the Neville Shute site and didn't spot it.


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

I have traced the Pig Trough photo back to its source in the National Archives and have emailed them requesting their permission to use it. 

Thanks again.


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## Billy1963 (Jan 4, 2006)

Peter4447 said:


> I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Holman Projector (or something similar) for firing hand grenades at aircraft was operated by steam from the boiler room which was fine unless the Chief was miserly with the use of his steam, so that when the grenade was 'fired' instead of shooting skywards it was likely to just reach the top of the pipe before falling on the deck!
> I have no idea as to whether this was true or was just a 'tale' (same as the one about the Sten gun which was only supposed to work when you laid it down) so perhaps one of our members knows the real answer.
> Peter(Smoke)


Cargo ship Beal, 504grt, (Tyne-Tees SS Co.). At 11.50pm on the 12th August 1940, Captain Henry Crackles and three crewmembers were injured by a bomb, which exploded while being fired from the ships Holman Projector. This was a crude form of mortar, which propelled a hand grenade using compressed air or steam at low flying attacking enemy aircraft. After receiving first aid onboard the ship the four men were taken to hospital on arrival at Middlesbrough. Captain Crackles was to die of his wounds one week later.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Hello Billy,
Thankyou for that interesting posting.
I don't remember it being used on any ship I sailed in but there were occasions when it could have been -maybe the officers had heard of the tragic incident on Beal.
I recall hearing from other seamen of the failures of that rocket in falling onto their own ship or another ship nearby.
Regards
Stan


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## jimmyc (Dec 28, 2005)

*PIG Trough*



benjidog said:


> Thanks Jimmyc. I have been looking at the Neville Shute site and didn't spot it.


*SEE REPLY 21
WHERE I SEARCHED GOOGLE IMAGES*
*PS my Dad did DEMS Gunnery course
I have a copy of his certificate*


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