# looking for engine room plans for Moore-McCormack lines brasil or argentina.



## 200328 (7 mo ago)

hello hope someone here might be able to help me I am looking for engine room plans for Moore-McCormack lines brasil or argentina. thanks in advance.


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## jerome morris (May 27, 2008)

Ingalls ship building , in Pascagoula, Mississippi built both ships.
I think they were based on a C3 hull design.
National Archives may have something?


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Based on MARAD Design P2-S2-9a. That said, looking at some of the P2 ships, I do not see any similarities with the Brasil/Argentina. Dimensions were very different and machinery were different etc, The P2 no sheer hulls, The Brasil/Argentina were given full sheer. Peter K might have some more information.

I sailed in both vessels, under Holland America and also under Bermuda Star Line. Beautiful ships, SOLID!!!!! Both vessels had good long lives, over 40 years.


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## kohl57 (Jul 29, 2006)

The official designation of these two was indeed PS-S2-9A but that was exclusive to them. Most of the US Marad passenger fleet were indeed P2s but that was more a designation of size, tonnage than design features. PRESIDENT WILSON and CLEVELAND were P2s and as different from BRASIL and ARGENTINA as chalk and cheese. 

Alas, no plans I can find.... you'd need hard copy volumes for that as most anything post 1924 is not on the web owing to copyright issues. 

These two were stunning as built (excellent photo of them to start this topic!) but they were probably the least successful of all post-war American liners. Between them, they lost Moore-Mac $17 mn. between 1958-1969 and that was despite receiving $66 mn. in operational subsidies during this period! APL were ready to get them both in 1968 but the hassle of changing them from US East Coast to Pacific Coast unions was simply too much to contemplate and the idea was dropped... amazing, eh?

I remember seeing them laid up initially in Baltimore in 1969 as we drove into Baltimore's Harbor Tunnel on some family outing, they were moored side by side right over the tunnel entrance. And of course, many subsequent visits to them in New York in their too many to contemplate guises and owners. When HAL first had them, why they still had some Moore-Mac china and linen aboard and I think the bathmats, too! Some of the biggest staterooms afloat... the bathrooms were one third bigger than my entire cabin aboard FRANCE.

Peter Kohler


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Thanks Peter.

1986 I did a great E/R tour with Tom Lassalousos ex C/E in VERA CRUZ. Spotless. Behind the reasoning of the purchase by Common Brothers, "Ths ship was a good buy. Yes, her fuel bill would be higher than a more modern ship, but the basic cost of the ship was lots less. In the end they would make more on the ship than a motor ship." 

Stephen


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## poseidon9 (Aug 13, 2010)

Those were very nice looking liners and I like them even more in their original appearance with the top deck "solarium" (I have learnt earlier on this website that the top structure was a solarium). 

Why did they write the name "Brasil" and not "Brazil" - or what was the correct spelling of the name? I find in web the name in both forms, so what is the correct spelling?

You mention the large staterooms. I think many American liners of 1930s-1950s had large nice cabins, there were those only 1st class liners, too. I have understood that the Grace line Santa -vessels had nice staterooms, too. Definitely I would choose cruising on one of these vessels, if they were still available.


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## kohl57 (Jul 29, 2006)

The spelling was actually requested by the Brasilian Embassy I believe.... since the previous BRAZIL used the Anglecised spelling not the Portuguese BRASIL. Brasil is the correct native spelling. 

These two were certainly a lot more attractive before their 1962-63 rebuilds which gave them a lot more and a lot smaller "cruise ship" like cabins in total contrast to the original ones. Worse, all this added superstructure was I think aluminium and you could even feel the "bounce" in the decks, it was so light and tinny. Horrible!. And, of course, did their profiles no favours, either. This and the completion of the conversion of LEILANI to PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT represented pretty much the last government investment in the American passenger fleet. 

It comes as a surprise to some that BRASIL and ARGENTINA's most favoured cruises were to Scandinavia. But should not... since Moore-Mac owned American Scantic Line which was the main U.S. flag line to Scandinavia and had operated "combi" liners on the route before the war. So Moore-Mac still "owned" the passenger service rights to the region and not run afoul of the arcane U.S. route restrictions when they went big time into cruising post 1963. United States Lines had a hell of time fending off complaints by Grace Line for example whenever they sent UNITED STATES or AMERICA on periodic West Indies cruises since it was impinging on their turf so to speak. 

Peter Kohler


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