# What's Dise all about?



## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

I am transcribing and writing up some Cornish ships.
In amongst the notes, I find one which states that the
captain has asked that a
"Dise to be put on at 1ft 11ins from the top of the deck"
Could sks tell me please, what was/is a Dise?
Best Wishes, Raymond


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Can't see any reference to a "dise" in "The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea" so maybe a local name for something. Or maybe a misprint - Could it be disc? But why put one that height from the top of the deck?

Will be interested in seeing the answer if someone knows.

Brian


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

I could not find anything, but I have just remembered my Archaic English dictionary. They quote Dise as "to put tow or flax on a distaff". Not quite sure how that fits in, but distaff is what I believe was used in spinning?
And why 1ft 11 inches? Attached is a scan of the word.


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

Could it be a poorly formed letter C. That would make it 'Disc'.


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Suggestion - If it is written in the vernacular than maybe it is a word which sounds like dise when spoken with a Kurnow accent.
(I can't find anything like it in my Original Encyclopaedia Brit.)


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## Gavin Gait (Aug 14, 2005)

treeve said:


> I could not find anything, but I have just remembered my Archaic English dictionary. They quote Dise as "to put tow or flax on a distaff". Not quite sure how that fits in, but distaff is what I believe was used in spinning?
> And why 1ft 11 inches? Attached is a scan of the word.


Ok I think this has a truer meaning than that. The Cornish inshore mackerel handliners use a "reel" on the rails to hold the handline. The reel isn't round its more like an 8 sided octagon , open in the middle with 8 rods connecting the 2 sides , usually fairly large about 24" to allow for rapid hauling.

I've tried to find a photo online but can't see one if I find one i'll post up a photo.

Davie


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

I have gone all over and cannot honestly say that I can think of anything,
save that "dise" is the old way of spelling dice ( one dice, two die ).
It is written in exactly the same way, twice. The "e" is exactly the 
same as all other "e"s. 
And it is the ship records for T Richardson ( on the NE coast ), maybe
some local name for a weather tarpaulin to be hung on the sides of
the ships? The captain asked for it to be fitted, and is recorded as
being so fitted before she was given seaworthy condition in 1883.
A puzzle. Best Wishes, Raymond


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

Just had a thought - flax / tow, and the linguistic connection of "oakum".
Maybe it was the tarring of the boards - it took a couple of weeks to do.


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

The specific dimention of 1 ft 11 inchs indicates to me it was some sort of early "Plimsoll Mark " A mark not which to load beyond ! Perhaps for use when carrying heavy cargo when filling the hold would be dangerous ???

From this thought I subscribe to the theory that it is proably a Disc rather than a dise ??


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

A thought ... she had cargo space for 104,081 cu ft. 
The word DISE is used now apparently as a buffer group, or a blow valve in pressure systems, or as a sliver of glass. 
But, why at precisely 1ft 11inches above the level of the deck? And why was it important to the Captain, why was it not usual? I see where the "disc" idea comes from - after all that's what Google throws at me. The more I look at the word, all I see is Dise. Maybe it is "dias" or some other mispelt word, or perhaps it is a contraction? This is one of those things that I just cannot put down until I see it in b&w.


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## GALTRA (Mar 7, 2006)

At first I tended to agree with "Clockman" that it is a Cornish vernacular dialect spelling of the word "dish" or "disc" or less likely - "this" or "these" or even "it is", but then I remembered something -- "DYCE"= a langridge(chair or platform ?) for the old HAIL-SHOT PIECES. "Hailshot Piece" = a sort of gun supplied of old to ships, with dice (cubes) of iron as the missile. But then we have the word DEESE = An east-country term for a place where herrings are dried. There was also the D-blocks ,lumps of oak in the shape of a D bolted to the ships side in the channls to reeve the lifts through and the dead-eyes, which could be fixed 1'.11'' from the deck, all could be misspelt DISE!! Not a lot of help to you I'm afraid but keep looking.. Charley


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

Thanks for all the input so far ... I have searched t'net.
Come up wi' owt. So I have written to a couple of Maritime bods.
Dise is going to drive me more mad than I am.


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Treeve ;
" to be put at 1 foot 11 inches from top of Deck" I assume the Disc /Dise would be 1 ft 11 inches below the top of deck / Top of deck as this the moulded line from which all dimentions would be taken with a vessel afloat .
You assume it is above the moulded line ? any particular reason for that ? 
Derek
ps do you have any other particlars of the vessel in question which may help ? plans etc ?


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## Bridie (Oct 9, 2006)

Hi
This might cloud the waters even more, but I found this about *Cornish seafarers* names.

_"Tangier Island, Chesapeake Bay, USA. For a start there are no cars. And almost everybody has a Cornish surname - Crockett, *Dise*, Evans, Landon, Parks, Pruitt - descendants of the original seven fishing families who departed Padstow in 1686. To cap it all, they speak Elizabethan English with a West Country accent."_


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

I think Derek is on to something there - I suspect we were all thinking above deck rather than below it. So the question could be put "what would you put around 1' 11" below deck level? And to help answer that you would need to know what size the boat is to start with - are we talking fishing boats Treeve? If so what would be the overall depth from deck to bottom of a typical specimen? Could it be some kind of safe loading mark?

Regards,

Brian


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

That is a really good point, Derek and Brian. And of course Pete has put under the spotlight a surname that I was asking myself, is it a trade name or familiar name for an invention or system used? I could not find enough on the family to be sure. Anyway, she was Chellew's first cargo passenger ship, City of Truro. Length 256ft 6 inches, with cargo space of 104 thousand cubic feet.
I have a poor photo of a painting of her in very high seas. Best Wishes, Raymond


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

Just finished transcription, I see that the crop of beam ( 34ft 6ins ) is 9 inches and the depth of floor is 23 inches ( 1ft 11ins ). She can carry 2,300 tons at 2ft side. Looks like Derek is on to something. I still cannot see the last letter being a “c”, the entries are beautifully written – my father used to write exactly like this. In fact I was quite amazed at the likeness. All Best, Raymond


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## scooby do (Mar 4, 2006)

Oakum !!!! so that's what the old shipwright meant. 
When i was a long haired apprentice marine fitter in the 60s 
He told me i looked like a rat looking out of a bale of Oakum.
Good job i told him to f-ck off, it must have been an insult.


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

I have looked again at the history of the Plimsoll Line; I think I am going to have to concede that is is in fact "Disc"; 1876 saw the first application of the Plimsoll line to be put on ships ( though some of the owners had them painted on the funnels apparently ), and it was not until 1894 that there was a specific position applied; all positioning before that date was arbitrary and determined by the owners or builders. In this case, it was the captain.
Back to the classrom ....


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## Bridie (Oct 9, 2006)

treeve said:


> Just had a thought - flax / tow, and the linguistic connection of "oakum".
> Maybe it was the tarring of the boards - it took a couple of weeks to do.


Or some sort of chafing-gear, but don't think that would need such an exact measurement.


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Raymond 
Your 2300 tons at 2ft side would very much indicte it was some sort of early Plimsoll mark . Having said that 2 ft freeboard on a vessel of 236 tf in length does not seem a lot at all !! 
Unless she had a high f'csle and poop with big midship accomodations . Would love to see your picture to see her deck house configuration .
Derek


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Raymond ;
Correction length 256 ft . 
Also from one of your other posts
" being so fitted before she was given a seaworthy condition in 1883 " 
I think it is clear it was to do with loading marks .
I will search about and see if I can find some pictures or plans of the vessel .
Derek


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

*SS City of Truro*

Thank you Derek,
I am trying to sort out the early days of Chellew and the Cornwall Steamship Company of Truro, Cornwall. I am due to start recording from the Falmouth Registers in January of next year, but I thought I would transcribe and write up what I already had, and, in comparing it with what little there is on the web, I find some anomolies already. T Richardson records that the first vessel ( City of Truro ) was actually built for The Cornwall Steamship Company. Not only that, but the SS Duke of Cornwall was built in 1888 and she apparently did not come under the wing of R B Chellew until 1902, according to some sources. But, this does rather get rid of the assertion that the Cornwall Steamship Company was formed in 1888. SS Penpol was another early vessel, this time built by Harveys of Hayle in 1891, and SS Penlee built by Ropners in 1901. Duke of Cornwall and Duchess of Cornwall were built for single ship name companies under R B Chellew. All this will become clearer when I get to the Falmouth Shipping Registers. I aim to list all the early sailing vessels of William Chellew.
For comparison to the “Disc” level at 1ft 11ins from the top of the deck, the Depth of Hold was 19ft 8ins.
I am attaching the only picture I have been sent of her. Such seas were commonly featured in these illustrations of ships.
Best Wishes, Raymond


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

"Dise" does not appear anywhere in my Glossary of Cornish Sea Words.
Hugh Ferguson.


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Thanks again Raymond : 
The mystery continues ? With a depth of hold of 19 ft 8 inches ( assuming no double bottoms which would have been the case at that time ) A freeboard of 1 ft 11 inches would have been inappropriate in my view .
From you picture she does not have a prominant Forcasle and little or no Poop. While there is accomodation midships it is not signifcant , 

I personally would doubt she would be loaded to 1 ft 11 inches freeboard unless she was on very short trips and in inland waters . Certainly I would not like to cross the " Oggin " on a ship so loaded !

Please keep us informed of your findings ( I have come up with nothing on the web )

I would be interested in the views of some of our Master Mariners and any Naval Architects out there .

Derek ( Retired Chief of all the Engineers )


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## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

american vessels were loaded to a formula based on "inches per foot of depth of hold" the method used in britain proir to 1890


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

One of the reasons that I decided to go out on this venture was that there was little to be found on this almost central shipping company of the time. And certainly little on their ships. I hope to correct this early next year.
Best Wishes, Raymond


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

Interesting, Dom, as I see she was supposed to be able to carry 2300t at 2ft.
Other particulars for you ...
Breadth 34ft 6ins
Sheer aft 2ft 5ins
Sheer forward 6ft 1½ins
Sheer Mean 4ft 3¼ins
Sheer at front of bridge 7½
Depth of Hold 19ft 8ins, Moulded 20ft 10ins
What does "sheer" mean in this context?
All Best, Raymond


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## Doug Shaw (Jan 20, 2006)

I believe that 'sheer' refers to the upward slope of the vessel's lines both fore and aft, but others might be able to provide a better or more complete explanation.

The following is a definition from my old book on ship construction:
"SHEER - The curvature of the deck in a fore and aft direction, rising from midships to a maximum at the ends. The sheer forward is usually twice that of aft. Sheer on exposed decks makes a ship more seaworthy by raising the deck at the fore and after ends further from the water and by reducing the volume of water coming on the deck."

Regards
Doug


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

I checked out a couple of other dictionaries for Dise without coming up with anything new. I have also been practicing handwriting various words and I am convinced that the word really is "Dise" and not disc. It might be worth scanning a larger chunk of the original text so we can take a look for similar letters in other words for comparison.

"The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea" gives a very similar definition of sheer as Doug posted:

"The upward curve of the deck of a ship towards the bow and stern, with the lowest point in the waist".

It gives another definition but don't think this is relevant here:

"The angle to which a ship takes to ites cable when lying to an anchor, cuased by the effects of wind and/or tide"

Regards,

Brian


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

Thank you for that, Doug and Brian - 
I am more familiar with shear in structural calcs, and sheer as in denier!!
But, I admit, my instincts still shout at me that it is "Dise", despite the common sense approach which says it is "Disc" .... I'll go over the pages
and see what I can do. Best Wishes, Raymond


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

*the Dise that bind*

I have made a pastiche of the words that contain e and s - there are three separate sets of handwriting but this is just one of them.


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

The c seen twice on the word deck is very simlar the the last letter of disc / dise . Also the D of disc/dise has a very fancy swirl ( Moreso than the writers other d's ) which prompts me to think his hand was inclined to make this fancy c to look like an e .

The amount of sheer indicated would in fact give her a Freeboard of 8ft 1/2 inch Ford ; 1 ft 11 inches midships and 4 ft 4 inches aft which would afford a lot of reserve buoyancyfor a vessel of this length and beam . ( My previous comment was made before I saw the Sheer )



From MacGibbons M.o.T orals for Marine Engineers in the section Ship Construction Questions and Answers.

Question 7 . " The ship side has a disc marked on it, make a sketch and explain the meaning of the markings . What is the name given to the disc and why ?

A " The disc and markings referred to are called the Plimsoll mark after the name of the man who did so much in Parliment to have them made compulsory etc etc .
" The cenre of the disc indicates the summer freeboard etc etc "

The sketch shows the Disc ( Plimsoll mark ) with its centre being fixed a measurement below the Statutrory Deck Line ( Main Deck ) this distance is called the Freeboard .

An extract from some of the other text which I found interesting

" It might be mentioned here that is the duty of every person who intends sailing on a ship to obsrve the Plimsoll mark just immediatley before sailing for if the ship is overloaded the shipmaster can be reported and the ship detained untill the loading is correct or the person can refuse to sail in the ship ."

There is no doubt in my mind based on what we have seen that the word is Disc ( Albeit that the c is poorly formed and has the appearance of a e )

As a Chief Engineer I once sailed with told me when I had stated something was a bit of a mystery .

" There is no such thing as a mystery ! We either dont have all the facts or we are analysing the facts we have incorrectly . " 

Derek


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

I still think it is an S and just wasted another hour trying to find this bloody word on the Internet. This is getting really annoying now! 

Brian


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Trust me Brian !!!
Save those grey cells for something else .

Derek Poireau.


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

Definitely a 'C'. Look at the 2 top right hand examples.Written in a hurry and he as looped his ligatures. (the joining lines of letters, I used to do calligraphy!)


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Think you are right about saving zee little grey cells Derek. I can hardly read my own writing let alone anyone else's. 

Mon Dieu! I was in Belgium yesterday but didn't see the fastidious detective. I was quite expecting to bump into him in the market place in Brussels over lunch but it was not to be. 

Brian


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

I am not one to critique writing ! 
At one time my secretary asked me if I had been a doctor in a prior career as all my notes were like reading perscriptions. When she retired ( a couple of years before I did ) I found it easier to do my own letters on the computer than to continually have to translate my hyroglifics ( wheres the Blo---dy spell check ?) to my new assistant ! A good arrangement ! I worked away at a snails pace while she /they kept the office amused and sullpied me with tea coffee and tab nabs .


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

That's what a scribe that could not write anymore did -
he would hire a glyphic. I have not been able to write for years
due to arthritis, so much easier typing, a la duodigit.
Looks like we have to concede it is a slipped disc.
Have you got the scrolls - no, its just the way I walk.....


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

Its Christmas : Ho Ho Ho !
Thanks for the post Raymond ; it has been great fun . Sorry about the joints job but keep up the Great work ! Look forward to your other posts > I suspect you will find many referances to the " Dise " / " Disc " in your research which will support or perhaps refute the theory put forward to date .
Happy Christmas to All Derek


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## treeve (Nov 15, 2005)

Thanks to everyone for your help. it is always good to run these things around the bucket and see what pops out. Thanks for the wishes,
Double Reciprocating Cylinders to All. Raymond


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