# Combined Masters



## sternchallis

My paternal grandfather had a combined Masters Certificate.

Not Deck and ER as today but -

Sail and Steam Deck Certificate. He started off his seagoing career round the coast of Britain on sail cargo vessel , and on the 1911 ( I think) census he was listed as cook, but later he worked his way up and to larger sailing ships getting his masters in sail. When steam came popular they obviously had to take a steam masters, a different way to command a vessel. He was mainly Home Trade and Middle Water European coast.
If he was served a cup of weak tea, he was heard to say," 16 fathoms and a sandy bottom". No doubt his tea was strong enough to stand a spoon in plus sweet with Connie Onnie.
As he was a Hull man, he didn't need a pilot and could pilot his own ship up the Humber into Hull Docks. Before the days of communication equipment his wife knew when he would be docking .

Often he would stop and pick up some crabs or fish from the fishermen off the Dogger Bank on his way home. 

He was a 60 a day man yet quite healthy as far as I knew , yet died in a prefab fire going back in to rescue his dog, having got the landlady to safety. The fire was caused by an electrical fault, not smoking in bed ( being used to sailing ships , no doubt he was extra careful) . The prefabs were supposed to be tempory due to the war blitz of Hull, but did not come down until the 70-80's. 
He was awarded an MBE for services during the war as a master on coastal convoys. Never did find any detailed official write up.
His last company was Challis Sterne , wine importers from Portugal and Spain.

I followed the maternal side of the family of Engineers.

Now the kids of today have nobody to follow. Unless its Govt sign writer.

Dirty British coaster with the salt caked smoke stack,
Butting through the Channel in the mad March Days,
With a cargo of Tyne coal,
Road rails, pig lead,
Fire wood, iron ware and cheap tin trays.

John Masefield - Cargoes

We have all done that.


----------



## chadburn

In those days Steam was considered to be the Auxiliary to Sail along with its use of Steam Winches for Sail Setting until Steam eventually took over as the Propelling Engines gained more power.
The Pre Fabs made from salvaged Aircraft were great little properties and although were meant to be temporary still exist today in various parts of the Country including one at Eden Camp in N. Yorkshire


----------



## Dartskipper

When my Dad went to sea in 1938, both the Master and Mate of his first ship had combined sail and steam tickets. The master, I believe, had a Master's in sail endorsed for steam. Dad had to learn all the different rigs, and the names of all the sails, of every type of commercial sailing vessel. I remember him reeling off the names of the sails of a full rigged ship, fore to aft.

His first ship was the Shell tanker Cardium, a motor vessel. He never did get to go to sea under sail.


----------



## Stephen J. Card

I remember a radio story about men that went in steam ships and in sail. One I remember was the Master on the poop of his sail vessel in a storm. The Mate was making his first every trip in sail. The Old Man saw the Mate huddled in the scuppers in complete terror. The Old Man growled at the Mate, "You are nothing but a useless steam boat sailor!" 


Stephen


----------



## Dartskipper

A certain retired Master Mariner who lived in Torquay was one of the last men alive to hold a Master's Certificate in sail. He was Commander Lund, who ran a correspondence school for people who wanted to obtain a Yachtmasters' Certificate. If I remember his residence was on Headland Road, Livermead, Torquay. He owned a small gaff rigged vessel, mostly open decked but with a small cuddy forward. He would only ever take her out in a stiffening breeze, with a falling barometer and worsening forecast. If there was a cone up at the Coastguard lookout on Berry Head, so much the better.

He used to sit on the examination board for the Trinity House Out Port of Brixham for masters requiring a pilotage exemption certificate.


----------



## duquesa

I went off to the Panamanian Embassy in New York many years ago to get my Panamanian Certificate (Mates I think). The second and chief engineer and chief steward also went. Later sitting having a beer on board, the chief steward looked at his new certificate and burst out laughing. They had given him a Chief Stewards certificate endorsed for steam and diesel.


----------



## sternchallis

duquesa said:


> I went off to the Panamanian Embassy in New York many years ago to get my Panamanian Certificate (Mates I think). The second and chief engineer and chief steward also went. Later sitting having a beer on board, the chief steward looked at his new certificate and burst out laughing. They had given him a Chief Stewards certificate endorsed for steam and diesel.


Well his galley may have had steam Bain Maree or steam jacketed pans or bread oven and the hotplates and ovens could have been diesel fired as the old steam trawlers had, an upgrade from coal fired.
On the cruise ships they probably need a Corgi (or the latest alphabet soup) certificate if they have gas fired ranges or BBQ's, plus the gas blowtorches for the deserts.


----------



## Barrie Youde

Sail Gives Way to Steam.


Aha, my boys! You’ll know, my boys! Steam gives way to sail!
By far, my boys! Stout sail enjoys stability in gale!
When faced, my boys, or graced, my boys, to ride the tempest out,
My taste, my boys, well placed, my boys, is sail, without a doubt.

D’you feel, good Sir, men might prefer, more certainty of course?
It’s real, good Sir, please do not err: Now, steam exists perforce.
It fills a need. It gives more speed. It hastens any cargo,
Of market seed or martial steed. None tolerates embargo.

I know, my boys: It’s so, my boys. You will not ever heed me.
Just go, my boys: but know, my boys, that if you ever need me;
I’m here my boys! Good cheer my boys! To each and every feller!
Beware, my boys! Take care, my boys! Keep clear of the propeller!

And so we learned: And so we spurned the grace of long ago.
Paddles turned and fuel was burned, to make the steamship go.
Yet I’ll salute the sailorman who sailed by wind alone
Who nothing knew of radar or the mobile telephone:
Whose compass was magnetic and whose patience was his skill:
Who knew his navigation and who had an iron will:
Whose latitude and longitude were taken from the stars:
Who never dreamed he’d see a cargoful of motor-cars:
Who carried oil in barrels: And who knew no oil in bulk:
Who depended on his parrels, lest his ship become a hulk:
Who might have been a gentleman or might have been a rogue:
Who knew, before the running sea, the value of a drogue:
His log his own advisor as he groped around the coast
In fog. This true survivor-man was never heard to boast.
These are perhaps the reasons why no man should ever fail
To understand the moral of why steam gives way to sail.
Of course, the law has no concern for morals. They’re a dream:
While history suggests that sail has given way to steam. 

BY
2012


----------



## sternchallis

Very good Barrie, as always. Thank you.


----------



## David K

*Extra Masters Sail and Steam*

As an Apprentice with the Australian National Line (1960-64 ) I served under two Masters holding (FG) Extra Masters Sail and Steam. Both were truly excellent seamen, and strange as it may seem neither drank nor swore! The first, Capt.McCauley would have the Tugs in attendance when docking only because the Company, and presumably the Insurance insisted. Otherwise he'd "Park" the " River Murrumbidgee" as easily as I'd now park a car on a good day ! And he'd invariably take the time to point out to the Apprentice ( responsible for Bridge Log and Engine Room Telegraphs ) on the Bridge when entering Harbour, all the markers and points of reference he used and what the tides and currents could be expected to do and how to take advantage of them. ... Truly one of natures true Gentlemen! .... David K


----------



## sternchallis

Extra Masters is different from a combined Masters in Sail & Steam.
As is an Extra Chiefs. You don't need a combined ticket to sit for the Extras.
The Extras is equivalent to a BS/BEng honours degree in Nautical Science/Marine Engineering, lots of fancy sums and derivation of the formulas more than using them.

Extras often being the qualification of choice for BOT (M&CGA) and Class surveyors.

Though both these agencies slipped up by asking for graduates and found they didn't have a clue when it came to crawling around crankcases, boilers or looking at running gear on deck, lifeboat davits or hold structures during surveys. And they probably didn't like getting dirty.
They then had to drop the qualls to allow former sea going personel to join and sort them out.


----------



## Basil

> could pilot his own ship up the Humber into Hull Docks


Once helmed a 70ft steel ketch motoring up the Humber with a strong tidal flow.
She deffo wasn't always going in the direction she was pointing 

Respect to those who did that sort of thing with sail, oar and anchor.


----------



## Duncan112

Alistair McNab or Alan Rawlinson might be able to shed light/dates etc on this but there was a relieving Master in Bank Line, a Captain B Z Gerstel who by repute had a Master's in sail & steam.


----------



## sternchallis

Were Bank Line ships once described as , 12,000 tons, 12 tons a day and 
12 knots perhaps.

I believe also state they could put a ship in any (major ?) port in the world in 
2 ( not quite sure on that number) days, due to there large tramping fleet. 

Believed to be still in operation but with Russian officers and crew.


----------



## Dartskipper

sternchallis said:


> Were Bank Line ships once described as , 12,000 tons, 12 tons a day and
> 12 knots perhaps.
> 
> I believe also state they could put a ship in any (major ?) port in the world in
> 2 ( not quite sure on that number) days, due to there large tramping fleet.
> 
> Believed to be still in operation but with Russian officers and crew.


A class of tankers built for Shell in the 1930's onwards were known as the "Triple Twelves" for the same reasons. A number also were built for Eagle Oil.


----------



## Dartskipper

Basil said:


> Once helmed a 70ft steel ketch motoring up the Humber with a strong tidal flow.
> She deffo wasn't always going in the direction she was pointing
> 
> Respect to those who did that sort of thing with sail, oar and anchor.


A bit like crossing the Gulf Stream when heading for Miami from Nassau at night. Made landfall near the entrance to Fort Lauderdale.

Oops.:sweat:


----------



## Rogerfrench

I do remember the 10 10 10 10 standard, like a Liberty ship perhaps.
Ten thousand tons
Ten knots
Ten tons
Ten derricks.


----------



## david freeman

I just wonder? did not in my days not at sea, but attached to the marine industry: Did Not he great and the good due to the shotage, or over subscription of apprenticeships, go through a phase where the apprentice signed do***ents, submitted him/her self to the rigours of both deck and engine room watch keeping duties, having completed their apprenticeship could sit and be admitted either for the deck certificates of competancy, or the engineer certificates of competance- The sea time was the 'nub' of the problem?? How much, and where completed.
My idle question to you all? Please did any o you go through this scheme, and are there serving deck officers with a class 4 or Class 2 cofc eng, and are there any engineer officers with a 3rd mates certificate sailing as a certificated engineer??
I do not think I am having a brain storm, I think someone some where may have been through these gates to Heaven??


----------



## tiachapman

prefabs here in billingham still going strong


----------



## Varley

Shell Netherlands (for one) did employ combined senior ticket holders in alternating senior positions however the intention of one of the idea's authors (T.D. Underwood) the concept was far simpler. The concept did not really solve a officer shortage as the same number of bodies would be required and now with longer education and training to reach senior slots.

Where they was a place was in minimum hours of rest. For instance if the Mate would become 'over hours' by, say, 'doing' standby forward on departure. An engineer, with the then class 3 in navigation as well, could become another available option.


----------



## Stephen J. Card

Duncan112 said:


> Alistair McNab or Alan Rawlinson might be able to shed light/dates etc on this but there was a relieving Master in Bank Line, a Captain B Z Gerstel who by repute had a Master's in sail & steam.


Master in sail & steam.... that means as in 'Sail in Sailing vessels and 'Steam' means powered driven vessels.... not as in 'Cheng'. On the other hand he might have indeed had a Deck ticket and an Engine ticket as well? 

Two brothers Drummond together in Glasgow College. One was Extra Master and the other was Extra Chief. One would come down to the Engineer to teach Stability and the other came up to Master's for Engineering. 

I can see some overlapping, even in lower ranks. If you come up for Second Mates you could get a Part A or Part B and sail as a Jr Eng or 4th a bit of experience. Likewise... send an engineer to sea for a spell as say, 4th Mate... either way as 'understudy' on board.

In the Denholm cadet ship WELLPARK were all Deck Cadets but the cadets did have to do a spell in the E/R. There was one cadet that by coincidence spent more in the E/R than he should have and in the end decided to become a Eng Cadet and chance his persuasion. 

Higher ranks I doubt would be that successful. Say it take 10 years to get Master and 10 years to get to Cheng. That is fine. If you combine you would have to do 20 years to reach the top or you would have senior officers with less than 5 years experience of each.


----------



## Varley

Simpler in those days, Stephen. As Sparkie I was put on the back end of Tilapa for meal relief going through Panama. As Leckie (and rather more stressfully) Pete Roberts left me the bridge of London Team, a Chinaman on the wheel and the Straits of Messina while he went for a crap. I also counted for him as engineer when it came to lifeboats and going ashore. Him kicking me in the back from his place at the tiller demanding more speed and me pointing out that the Chief would not be happy if we broke the engine (a technical term).


----------



## Ian Lawson

Nothing like that in my day #18 . In the company I served my apprenticeship in it was deck all the time. We knew no different. It was only on obtaining my First Mate (FG) in the early 60s and I moved elsewhere that I realised we were nothing less than 'slave labour'. I suspect Smiths of Cardiff et al were no different. As for 'Combined Master's? The Sail/Steam endorsement was around for donkey's year. The BOT move slowly. As for whatever is out there now days? anything is possible( £££$$$).


----------



## Ken Wood

Did my spell in the engine room as a deck apprentice in Shell. Only for experience mind you. Must admit I didn't like it, all that noise and light at 4am, unnatural!


----------



## Stephen J. Card

When I was up for the DOT eye examination another Denholm cadet was in at the same time. I passed, the other lad didn't. He was so keen to go to sea. The examiner told him to go and rest his eyes for a week and come back and he would give him another try. Wished him best. Three later we met join Avon Bridge. I was Third Mate, the other was Cadet Engineer! He told me once that up at GCNS the Head Of department asked some of the lads what they wanted to do when their go their tickets. One wanted to go to sea as Chief. One wanted to be Chief on a Power Station. Another wanted to work in a engine woks etc. The pal told the Head, "I want to be Chief on a Sailing Ship!" Last time he was 2nd Eng with Denholm... Bob Landsman. I don't doubt he went to the top and became as Chief.


----------



## sidsal

Jubilee Sailing Trust has a lady captain - on loan from P&O I believe. She has captained square rigged Lord Nelson and Tenacious on long ocean voyages.
Tenacious which is refitting in OZ at present will sail from Auckland in Jan
2018 to Falklands via Cape Horn. Two old Conway boys already signed up and I ( 91years old) have tried but it would cost me best part of £10K for fares, insurance etc so it's a non starter. I have however cir***navigated under sail in posh yachts belonging to mega buck types. I have a Mates ticket - wartime vintage. Had to give up MN in the 1950s owning to having TB. Was apprentice in Brocklebanks in WW2 after HMS Conway training in 1942. I ca still reel of names of sails - and quarter points.


----------



## Barrie Youde

#23 

About two years ago I met a man who holds a Class 1 STCW Certificate, which I understand is the modern equivalent of Master Foreign Going.

He told me that his entire sea-going experience had been in Cross-Channel Ferries and I was surprised when he told me that that he had never been beyond Ushant (i.e. had never sailed beyond the former Home-Trade limits).


----------



## Stephen J. Card

My first 'ticket' was for Mate (Home Trade). I was going up for 2nd Mate just to get some experience of a real examination room. The first question from the examiner at the orals was why was a youngster doing HT and not 2nd Mate. I told him and he told me that had I failed 2nd Mate and then came up for HT he would give me some real trouble! Anyhow, at the orals the examiner asked me what he would do to prepare the ship to go to sea. I went down my list in my head... everything I could think. The more I said the bigger the examiners smile. He stopped me and said, "What size was your last ship?" Proudly I replied, "VLCC, 250,000 dwt!" He said, "Well, that is all good on that VLCC, but useless on a small coaster!" Oops! A month later I did the Second Mate's and the examiner remembered me. Ten minutes later I was finished.

The Home Trade ticket.... the wording on the ticket says, 'Mate in a Home Trade Passenger Vessel'. Good almost enough for Cunard!


----------



## sternchallis

Stephen J. Card;2545722)
The Home Trade ticket.... the wording on the ticket says said:


> I suppose all cruise ship masters are Home Trade hardly ever leave the sight of land, rock dodging ( well some hit them ) a different port each morning.
> No cargo loading only the two legged variety. Mind you, do think they do any tomming off and dunaging?
> No noon sights.
> They probably have to take an acting customer service course.


----------



## sternchallis

Barrie Youde said:


> #23
> 
> About two years ago I met a man who holds a Class 1 STCW Certificate, which I understand is the modern equivalent of Master Foreign Going.
> 
> He told me that his entire sea-going experience had been in Cross-Channel Ferries and I was surprised when he told me that that he had never been beyond Ushant (i.e. had never sailed beyond the former Home-Trade limits).


He was probably good at crossing the bows of ships, doing the slalom across the channel, but never used a sextant and that book of log tables you chaps used,
calculated GM etc, had to worry about water rationing, dispensing streptamicing 
(or however you spell it), running out of fresh fruit and veg, dealing with johhny foreigner, apart from the gauls.
It must have been pretty boring for all those years.
You went to sea to see the world (except tankers and gas carriers they just saw the sea and a buoy).


----------



## Barrie Youde

#29 & #30 

I merely make the observation (and nothing more) that the rules of maritime professional qualification seem to have changed significantly in recent years.


----------



## China hand

WHEREAS you have been found duly qualified to fulfil the duties of Master of a Foreign-going ship in the Merchant Navy, the Board......... etc.
Luvly stuff. Got it framed, managed to keep it after all the new ones (still got them as well).


----------



## Duncan112

Barrie Youde said:


> #23
> 
> About two years ago I met a man who holds a Class 1 STCW Certificate, which I understand is the modern equivalent of Master Foreign Going.
> 
> He told me that his entire sea-going experience had been in Cross-Channel Ferries and I was surprised when he told me that that he had never been beyond Ushant (i.e. had never sailed beyond the former Home-Trade limits).


As an aside, a Second Mate I sailed with in Bank Line (He held a Master's Certificate but the ships had been sold and promotion was slow in the '80's) was telling me that when he was up for his Mates he was asked to finish the coastal before proceeding on leave - knowing fine well that the articles were for 2 years and relief was unlikely at the end of the coastal asked for the articles to be endorsed No xx Home Trade omly. This was done, despite much foaming at the mouth from personnel who saw their relief melting away but at he end of the coastal his discharge was for a HT voyage - which had ramifications for his sea time. Off he trots to the examiner and presents his book "HOME TRADE, HOME TRADE with Bank Line!" roared the Exaniner - the tale was related and the examiner picked up a pen, crossed out the HT entered Fgn and sent him on his way.


----------



## sternchallis

Duncan112 said:


> As an aside, a Second Mate I sailed with in Bank Line (He held a Master's Certificate but the ships had been sold and promotion was slow in the '80's) was telling me that when he was up for his Mates he was asked to finish the coastal before proceeding on leave - knowing fine well that the articles were for 2 years and relief was unlikely at the end of the coastal asked for the articles to be endorsed No xx Home Trade omly. This was done, despite much foaming at the mouth from personnel who saw their relief melting away but at he end of the coastal his discharge was for a HT voyage - which had ramifications for his sea time. Off he trots to the examiner and presents his book "HOME TRADE, HOME TRADE with Bank Line!" roared the Exaniner - the tale was related and the examiner picked up a pen, crossed out the HT entered Fgn and sent him on his way.



Did Bank Line ships ever come back to the UK?

Wasn't Bank Line like joining the circus, cir***navigating the world to all the obscure ports nobody else visited. A real education if you didn't suc***b to the grain. We came across one in Kiwi but decided not to invite them over to our Star boat.
We did come across a BI ship in Guyaquila and invited their officers over and their old man was surprised our bar was open after 10.30 pm. Perhaps the other extreme to Bank Line. But despite a few John Barleycorns the British MN very rarely hit any rocks or had collisions ( I know somebody is going to name a few, but that has to be see in the context of how many ships there were in the MN in its heyday).


----------



## Duncan112

sternchallis said:


> Did Bank Line ships ever come back to the UK?
> 
> Wasn't Bank Line like joining the circus, cir***navigating the world to all the obscure ports nobody else visited. A real education if you didn't suc***b to the grain. We came across one in Kiwi but decided not to invite them over to Star boat.
> We did come across a BI ship in Guyaquila and invited their officers over and their old man was surprised our bar was open after 10.30 pm. Perhaps the other extreme to Bank Line. But despite a few John Barleycorns the British MN very rarely hit any rocks or had collisions ( I know somebody is going to name a few, but that has to be see in the context of how many ships there were in the MN in its heyday).


Yes, some came back to the UK regularly - the SOPAC run, others very seldom.


----------



## LYDavis

*Were those the days?*

A shipmaster I served under was Capt Herbie Johnstone from Dumfries. He had served his time on a Topsail Schooner, the "Little Secret" carrying coal from Blythe to the South Coast, china clay from Cornwall to Rochester, etc. No engine. If I remember correctly, there was the Master, a mate, an AB and 2 apprentices. He told me that he and the other apprentice had one ambition - to finish their apprenticeship and get on a nice big steamboat!


----------

