# world war Two



## Lynnelle (Jul 9, 2011)

Hello everyone

My head is spinning with all the information about the MN during the war! But I thought I would make it easier on myself and ask the very people who would know much more than me!

From what I have read there were three convoys to Russia - known as the Arctic convoy - is this correct? Were there more than this?


Is there anyone from this site that was on one of the ships that went to Russia and back? I would like to ask you, how you felt about the journey? What it was like being under attack? How did your survive?

Does anyone know what happened to any men who were on ships that had sunk - I know some probably died, but survivors - how were they rescued? And by whom?

Also it looks like there were lots of shipping company's - does anyone know the number of shipping company's before the war? The Ministry of Transport took over most of the ships didn't they?

Does anyone know the amount of merchant men that lost their lives during the war?

I am finding the reading really fascinating and I really admire the bravery of all the men, in both the merchant and RN!

Stan Mayes has been in touch - but is there anyone else who could tell me what it was like? I can only imagine what it must have been like to be fired upon and in my mind so defenceless!?

I really look forward to hearing responses to my questions and I thank you in advance for reading and responding,

cheers
Lynnelle


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## Lynnelle (Jul 9, 2011)

*ships on convoy*

silly me - there were more than three - sorry should read it all properly!


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## IAN M (Jan 17, 2009)

Lynnelle

I again refer you to my book LIFE ABOARD A WARTIME LIBERTY SHIP. 

Regards


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

Lynnelle, This is a huge subject and I would suggest that you make start by trying to get hold of a copy of a New English Library paperback publication written by two survivors from one of the many convoys to North Russian ports.
Its title, PQ 17: Convoy To Hell, by Paul Lund and Harry Ludlam.

(The thumbnail is a summary of those convoys and their losses. Having opened the attachment, click on it again to enlarge).


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## Lynnelle (Jul 9, 2011)

*Tx*



IAN M said:


> Lynnelle
> 
> I again refer you to my book LIFE ABOARD A WARTIME LIBERTY SHIP.
> 
> Regards


Thank you Ian - I'm glad you were able to write your experiences and get it published.


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## Lynnelle (Jul 9, 2011)

Hugh Ferguson said:


> Lynnelle, This is a huge subject and I would suggest that you make start by trying to get hold of a copy of a New English Library paperback publication written by two survivors from one of the many convoys to North Russian ports.
> Its title, PQ 17: Convoy To Hell, by Paul Lund and Harry Ludlam.
> 
> (The thumbnail is a summary of those convoys and their losses. Having opened the attachment, click on it again to enlarge).


Thank you Hugh - I am beginning to realise just what a huge subject the whole MN was during the war! Its all been very interesting and have learned a lot!


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

To answer a few of your questions, Lynnelle:-

(1) Survivors from sunk ships were often rescued by one of the R.N. or other navy ships in the close escort (ie. warships close to the convoy as distinct from the distant escort which usually consisted of bigger warships such as cruisers). In many convoys, but not all, special rescue vessels followed in the rear of the convoy. I knew of one that had on-board more than 300 survivors. 
There is a book about them: The Rescue Ships, by Vice Admiral Schofield & Lt. Commander L.F. Martyn. One of them, the Stockport, was torpedoed by U.604 which reported her sinking in 3 minutes with survivors on board.

(3) The same shipping companies in existence prior to the war still operated as such. Many ships were operated by the Governent in the department known as the M.O.W.T. (Ministry of War Transport). There were more shipping companies than I could put a number to in a merchant fleet of more than 2000 ships but it must never be forgotten that many of the merchant ships in those convoys were other than British flag, several of neutral Swedish flag were sunk!

(4) The British losses of personnel lost in merchant ships was approximately 35,000 (about 17.5%).

I will look up some details from the book on the Rescue Ships and post it here on your thread. I'll be delighted if this is of some assistance to you in your researches.


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Hugh Ferguson said:


> (4) The British losses of personnel lost in merchant ships was approximately 35,000 (about 17.5%).


The figures for Merchant Navy deaths attributed to the Second World War will never truly be known. We can only give a rough estimate.

Quote from "Merchant Shipping and the Demands of War" by Miss C B A Behrens.

"All told the deaths due directly or indirectly to the war were estimated by the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen on 30th June 1952 as 31, 908. It is known, however, that this total is not complete and that it may be a long way removed from being so."

"In 1945 the Ministry of War Transport's Statistical Adviser, Sir William Elderton, after analysing samples of the cases of men discharged from the Merchant Navy pool in 1943 and following years, concluded that:

Though many of the men discharged would be fit for some occupation ashore, either immediately or after a few months, there is a considerable proportion that consists of permanently damaged lives and some who can have had only a few months to live. From the tabulated material it could be said that probably over 60 per cent of the men discharged in 1943 for physical reasons and about 40 per cen of those discharged in 1945 would be regarded by a life assurance company as uninsurable or insurable only on special terms."

Also it is important to understand the sources that you take the data from as some include lascar deaths some do not. Some include DEMS and T124 deaths and some do not. It's a big subject.

Even today long after the end of the Second World War this country has many uncommemorated dead.

Regards
Hugh


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

I wholly agree with your post, Hugh, those statistics are extremely difficult to corroborate but in the case of a single shipping company it can be easier.
Roskill, in his book, A Merchant Fleet in War, offers the following:-
"As to the personnel casualties suffered by the Holt fleet, the very varied sources from which the Merchant Navy was manned during the war make it very difficult to give a firm and accurate figure.
However, the company records state that 220 European officers and ratings and 170 Chinese ratings lost their lives in ships belonging to the fleet, and a further 70 officers and ratings in ships manned and managed by the Company.The total 460 lives lost was about 9% of the crews serving in ships which were sunk-a proportion which is far lower than that suffered by the British Merchant Navy as a whole. Many factors probably contributed to the high survival rate in Holt ships; but stoutness of construction, good organisation and discipline , and sound seamanship were undoubtedly amongst the greatest.................."

Added to this figure there would have been D.E.M.S. gunners whose loss would have been recorded elsewhere.
Another point worth noting for Lynnelle was that far from being defenceless many merchant ships were quite heavily armed-one I sailed in was equipped with 10 Oerlikons, a Bofors, a Lewis, a 12 pounder and a 4" high angle anti-aircraft gun, plus sundry rocket type artillery, F.A.M etc..


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

A little more.
Wherever the war was located, Merchant ships were there taking troops and essential supplies to the heart of the action. The traversing of these supply lines by Merchant ships, I think you will agree, was an extremely hazardous occupation. The whole maritime world was their battleground. From the moment they left port, the Merchant ship and her crew were at war, not knowing when they might be blown up or disabled in some fashion.

A look at some figures of the cost to the Merchant Service deserves some contemplation:- 4996 British and Allied ships lost; 62,933 British and Allied Merchant Seamen were killed in action. Compare this with the 50,758 killed in the Royal Navy and Commonwealth Navies. 4,000 Merchant seamen wounded and 5,000 taken as Prisoners of War.
It has been estimated that the Merchant Service losses amounted to one in six, compared to the combined armed forces of one in thirty-three! It is also interesting to note that of the total casualties of Merchant Seamen; only 8.25% were wounded and 91.75% killed, compared to 79% wounded and 21% killed of all the combined Armed Forces

Roger


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

The following is probably about the best summary one could obtain regarding casualty statistics for merchant seamen. It has been copied from the introduction prefacing the book, The Rescue Ships (Schofield & Martyn:1968)

"The total estimated deaths of officers and men of the British mercantile marine from enemy action during the Second World War is 32,952. To this must be added a considerable number from the crews of Allied merchant ships for whom no figures are available. It is difficult to give an accurate figure for the strength of the British Merchant Navy during the war, but the late Sir William Elderton, K.B.E., Ph.D., F.I.A,. who submitted a paper on the subject to the Institute of Actuaries on 25th Nov. 1946, put the figure at between 180,000, 190,000. Taking a mean figure of185,000, the loss rate works out at just over 17%, and this compares with 9.3% for the Royal Navy, 6% for the Army, and 9% for the R.A.F.. Had it not been for the introduction of Rescue Ships with the mercantile convoys, the loss rate in the Merchant Navy would have been even higher. Of the 4,194 survivors rescued by the ships, 2296 were citizens of the British Commonwealth and 951 of the United States, the balance being made up from the crews belonging to the other Allied nations........................" 

Ref:- _Merchant Seamen during the War._Journal of the Institute of Actuaries, Vol.LXXXIII, Part II, No.337


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## Lynnelle (Jul 9, 2011)

Hugh Ferguson said:


> To answer a few of your questions, Lynnelle:-
> 
> (1) Survivors from sunk ships were often rescued by one of the R.N. or other navy ships in the close escort (ie. warships close to the convoy as distinct from the distant escort which usually consisted of bigger warships such as cruisers). In many convoys, but not all, special rescue vessels followed in the rear of the convoy. I knew of one that had on-board more than 300 survivors.
> There is a book about them: The Rescue Ships, by Vice Admiral Schofield & Lt. Commander L.F. Martyn. One of them, the Stockport, was torpedoed by U.604 which reported her sinking in 3 minutes with survivors on board.
> ...


Thank you very much Hugh - Can I mention your name in the article?


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## Lynnelle (Jul 9, 2011)

Hugh Ferguson said:


> The following is probably about the best summary one could obtain regarding casualty statistics for merchant seamen. It has been copied from the introduction prefacing the book, The Rescue Ships (Schofield & Martyn:1968)
> 
> The total estimated deaths of officers and men of the British mercantile marine from enemy action during the Second World War is 32,952. To this must be added a considerable number from the crews of Allied merchant ships for whom no figures are available. It is difficult to give an accurate figure for the strength of the British Merchant Navy during the war, but the late Sir William Elderton, K.B.E., Ph.D., F.I.A,. who submitted a paper on the subject to the Institute of Actuaries on 25th Nov. 1946, put the figure at between 180,000, 190,000. Taking a mean figure of185,000, the loss rate works out at just over 17%, and this compares with 9.3% for the Royal Navy, 6% for the Army, and 9% for the R.A.F.. Had it not been for the introduction of Rescue Ships with the mercantile convoys, the loss rate in the Merchant Navy would have been even higher. Of the 4,194 survivors rescued by the ships, 2296 were citizens of the British Commonwealth and 951 of the United States, the balance being made up from the crews belonging to the other Allied nations........................
> 
> Ref:- _Merchant Seamen during the War._Journal of the Institute of Actuaries, Vol.LXXXIII, Part II, No.337


When did they introduce rescue ships?


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## Lynnelle (Jul 9, 2011)

Hugh Ferguson said:


> I wholly agree with your post, Hugh, those statistics are extremely difficult to corroborate but in the case of a single shipping company it can be easier.
> Roskill, in his book, A Merchant Fleet in War, offers the following:-
> "As to the personnel casualties suffered by the Holt fleet, the very varied sources from which the Merchant Navy was manned during the war make it very difficult to give a firm and accurate figure.
> However, the company records state that 220 European officers and ratings and 170 Chinese ratings lost their lives in ships belonging to the fleet, and a further 70 officers and ratings in ships manned and managed by the Company.The total 460 lives lost was about 9% of the crews serving in ships which were sunk-a proportion which is far lower than that suffered by the British Merchant Navy as a whole. Many factors probably contributed to the high survival rate in Holt ships; but stoutness of construction, good organisation and discipline , and sound seamanship were undoubtedly amongst the greatest.................."
> ...


Were they taught how to use the Bofors, Lewis etc
Were you in the merchant navy during the war Hugh? If so, which ships were you on?


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## Lynnelle (Jul 9, 2011)

Roger Griffiths said:


> A little more.
> Wherever the war was located, Merchant ships were there taking troops and essential supplies to the heart of the action. The traversing of these supply lines by Merchant ships, I think you will agree, was an extremely hazardous occupation. The whole maritime world was their battleground. From the moment they left port, the Merchant ship and her crew were at war, not knowing when they might be blown up or disabled in some fashion.
> 
> A look at some figures of the cost to the Merchant Service deserves some contemplation:- 4996 British and Allied ships lost; 62,933 British and Allied Merchant Seamen were killed in action. Compare this with the 50,758 killed in the Royal Navy and Commonwealth Navies. 4,000 Merchant seamen wounded and 5,000 taken as Prisoners of War.
> ...


Where did you get those figures from Roger? They are certainly high for the merchant navy - why do you think they would have been higher than the forces combined? Hugh mentions arms, but could it be that they were more defenseless than the forces?

I have to say, I am really enjoying all this research about the Merchant Navy and have gained immense respect for the journey's they made.


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## McCloggie (Apr 19, 2008)

The wounded/killed ratios may be partly explained if you consider the cir***stances of the military actions. 

A soldier who is wounded can get back to a first aid point or a hospital and be treated. A Merchant Sailor who has his ship blown up in the North Atlantic in the middle of a winter night will in all probability end up in the water. The survival time for people in the water without proper protection can be counted in minutes - whether they are wounded or not.

Even an inured man on an otherwise undamaged ship might have to stay onboard until the vessel reached a suitable port. There were no helicopter rescue missions!

So, even if they were not killed immediately in the action, many died from their injuries or were "lost at sea".

That is the sad but simple truth of the matter and we should never forget it.

McC


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

Quote:- When did they introduce rescue ships?

Not soon enough! It was not until 4th Nov.1940 that the Admiralty was able to inform the authorities in the U.K. concerned with the sailing of convoys that it was hoped that special vessels for use as Rescue Ships would shortly be available. They would be manned by Merchant Navy personnel, that each would carry a naval medical officer and a sick berth attendant, and that it would fly a Blue Ensign defaced with a gold anchor in the fly, as worn by Fleet Auxiliaries.
Not only did the ships need to be found, refitted and equipped with facilities to deal with people who had often been severely wounded but, of necessity, they had to be small and yet able to accommodate-with many more crew than a small ship would normally carry-and feed all of that crew and goodness knows how many survivors.
All of the Rescue Ships were of less than 2000 tons and none had ever been designed to go on ocean passages and so, as you may well imagine, quite some time was necessary to bring this force into full operating condition. Eventually there came to be about 30 of them.


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## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

As far as I can remember the figures came from a HMSO study of 1955 "Merchant Shipping & the Demands of War" The report also states that as many as 11,600 Merchant Seamen between 1942-1944 died shortly after leaving their ship, or whose lives were permanently damaged, either physically or mentally. The vast majority who died were never registered with CWGC. Most of those 
who's lives were damaged received neither compensation or pension.Merchant seamen whos ship was sunk had their pay stopped as soon as the ship was lost.
If you wish to read a book that graphically portrays the life of a British Merchant seamen during WW2 try "No Longer Required" by Bill Linskey. ISBN 0 9537285 0 1. 
It will give you an idea of the injustice of the situation suffered by shipwrecked British merchant seamen as compared to their US contemporaries.

"The recollections of an Irish-Geordie tearaway who wanted adventure, so he joined the Merchant Marine in 1938. WW2 brought him more adventure than he craved; he was torpedoed on SS Ashby and spent seven days in a lifeboat without a compass before the First Mate navigated to the Azores in the middle of the vast Atlantic Ocean.

He survived many trips to Argentina, the United States and Canada under heavy U-boat and plane attacks. He was sent on the PQ18 Arctic Convoy run to Russia and a dive-bomber exploded another ship under him. After rescue he spent the winter in Russia, earning a living as a black-marketeer.

In Spring he joined the crew of an American ship called the 'Ironclad' which managed to get shipwrecked in the White Sea.

Adventure indeed, but an irrepressible sense of humour lightened his problems and it makes this book very enjoyable reading." 

This book is now out of print but if you see it, grab it. You will not be disappointed.
In my opinion an unsung piece of history. The best one written by an Merchant Seaman recalling his wartime experiences. It will make you laugh and cry at the same time.
Incidentally. Bill, who died a few years ago was a founding member of Alcoholics Anonymous. His alcoholism was brought on as a direct result of his wartime trauma and all the prats at the Board of Trade could do to help was to discharge him "NO LONGER REQUIRED"

Roger


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Thankyou for that Roger.
Best regards,
Stan


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

The report that Roger refers to and that I mentioned in my first post comes from Miss Behren's study completed in 1955. It is the basis that many historians refer when compiling their own books. Unfortunately, many authors then go on to confuse the reader with figures that either include or exclude Lascar/DEMS/T124 deaths or give general figures with no break down. It is a very big subject and one that we will never really know the answer to. One thing is sure though, whatever is quoted the true figure will be much higher.


Regards
Hugh


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

This excerpt deserves a title of its own:-
Thirty Six Hours in the life of Rescue Ship, STOCKPORT. 

"We must now return to the Rescue Ship _Stockport_, escorting the homeward-bound convoy SC107 which left Halifax on 27th Oct.1942 and was sighted by a U-boat patrol off Newfoundland three days later. HF/DF bearings obtained by the Stockport clearly indicated that the U-boats were closing for a mass attack; but before they were able to do so they lost two of their number to aircraft of the R.C.A.F.. On the 1st Nov., when convoy passed beyond the range of air escort, there were still seven U-boats in contact with it. 
At five minutes past midnight the attack began, and it continued almost incessantly for the next thirty six hours. To the Master of the Stockport it seemed as if a succession of ships were being torpedoed and a never ending stream of survivors was being picked up. The first ship to be hit was the Empire Sunrise; her entire complement of fifty was saved. Three hoiurs later the British ship Dalcroy was torpedoed and the whole crew, numbering forty-nine, was picked up. Almost at the same time the Greek ship, Rinos was hit and, whilst going to the rescue of the crew, the Stockport almost collided with the wreck, which was floating bottom up. Twenty six survivors were rescued out of a crew of thirty-one.
During this operation, Chief officer Earnshaw, made use of a holed and water-logged life-boat from the sunken ship to collect men from a raft, and in the boat they sat in the water up to the thwarts. On return to the ship he was so exhausted that he could not climb the scrambling net. He fell back into the sea but was quickly rescued.
Next, the British ships Empire Antelope and Empire Leopard were torpedoed simultaneously. The whole crew of the first ship was saved, but the second ship blew up and there were only four survivors, one of whom subsequently died.
On 3rd Nov. when the Stockport was rejoining the convoy she was badly shaken by a violent underwater explosion. As a result, the main deck was set up on the starboard side, and the boat and upper decks, the fore peak and No.1 hold developed leaks. At first it was thought the ship had been torpedoed, and some of the survivors rushed the boats and cast them adrift. Drastic action was taken to restore order. 
Meanwhile the weather began to deteriorate, and the following evening at five o'clock it was blowing hard. The Stockport was preparing to rescue the survivors of another victim of the attack, the American ship Parthenon, and was going astern to take the way off the ship when her propellor struck an abandoned steel life-boat. This brought the engine up with a round turn. Although most of the boat fell clear, some part of it remained fast, andfor the next eight hours every revolution of the propellor was accompanied by a large thump on the stern frame. Because of this the speed was reduced to 8.5 knots; but despite the mishap twenty-three out of the twenty-nine members of the crew of the Parthenon were rescued.

The whole thirty-six hours long rescue operation is an unsurpassed achievement in the annals of the Rescue Service. A total of two hundred and fifty-six crew members were saved in difficult and dangerous conditions.........."

They were all landed in Iceland six days later.


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Thanks Hugh another very interesting story about amazing men.

Here are the awards for the ship.

London Gazette 2 March 1943 - For the saving of many lives from ships in convoy.

Fea, Thomas Ernest - Captain - OBE(Civ)
Earnshaw, Herbert King - Chief Officer - MBE(Civ)
Rowse, Eric William - Boatswain - BEM(Civ)
Livingstone, Alistair McMurdo - Third Radio Officer - Commendation
Whiting, Walter - First Radio Officer - Commendation

London Gazette 23 March 1943 - For the rescue of survivors from ships in North Atlantic Convoys ON 122 and SC 107.

Douglas, Neil Archibald - Surgeon Lieutenant RNVR - MBE(Civ)
Helme, Ernest D/SBR/X 7405 - Sick Berth Attendant RNVR - BEM(Mil)

London Gazette 27 April 1943 - For like services.

MacLeod, Murdo - Able Seaman - BEM(Civ)
Parton, Bertram Anderson - Chief Engineer - Commendation.

Rescue ship 'STOCKPORT' was torpedoed and sunk by U-604 (Holtring) in the North Atlantic on **25th February 1943 with the loss of all hands.

**dates of 23 and 25 have been quoted. The casualties all have dates of death commemorated on Tower Hill as the 25th. German sources indicate the 23rd.

Regards
Hugh


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

Thanks, Hugh. I was about to post the details of the award to Captain Fea O.B.E. but you beat me to it with a lot more of the other awards, the details of which do not all appear in the book, The Rescue Ships.
The relevant passage in the book reads:-
"For this splendid achievement Captain Fea was awarded the O.B.E., but alas, by the time it was gazetted, he and his gallant ship had been lost with all hands on another rescue operation. On 24th Feb.1943, while on escort duty in mid-Atlantic, in response to a distress signal from a ship straggling astern of the convoy, the Stockport, which already had ninety-one survivors on-board, turned back. She was never heard of again.")

(The thumbnail is of the Rescue Ship, BURY, arriving Halifax with survivors lining the rail-she was of almost identical tonnage to the STOCKPORT).


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

Hugh MacLean said:


> Thanks Hugh another very interesting story about amazing men.
> 
> Here are the awards for the ship.
> 
> ...


 The date and time recorded, in the Kriegdagbuch of U-604, gives this as, 03.12 on the 23rd Feb. 1943. 
As all U-boats kept their records in Central European Time and the sinking occurred at approximately, Longitude 44W, it is possible that local time may have been as much as 5 hours different; thus making-if the entry in the U-604's log is the correct, and not estimated, date and time-as 22.12 on the 22nd Feb. 1943.

The entry in German includes the following:-
"U-604 feuerte einen 4er-Facher und beobachtete zwei Treffer, danach eine innere Explosion und das Sinken des Schiffes innerhalb von 03.00 min. Die STOCKPORT war das Rettungsschiff des Konvois, das hinter dem Konvoi zuruckgetblieben war, sie hatte am 23.02.43 gegen 01:00h die Schiffbruchigen der EMPIRE TRADER auf genommen."

(U-604 was sunk on the 11th Aug.1943).


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

Lynnelle, If the fate of any of the U-boat commanders is of interest to you, the commander of U-604, Horst Holtring, survived only to 24th August 1943 when his boat was attacked from the air and was sunk. He survived that by being rescued by U-185 commanded by August Maus. U-185 was later attacked and sunk, Maus survived and was taken prisoner, but Holtring did not survive the attack.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Thankyou Hugh and Hugh for the stories and details of a heroic ship and heroic crew - Rescue Ship Stockport.. RIP.
Fortunately,due to an incident,my ship Cape Howe was not involved in the slaughter of convoy ON 166 in which Stockport was tragically lost..
We had sailed from the Clyde (maiden voyage) on 13th Feb 1943 intending to 
rendezvous with ON 166 which had departed Liverpool on 11th Feb..
Just prior to joining the convoy we were streaming the A.N.D. gear - torpedo
protection nets, when an AB suffered a serious injury to his hand.
We returned to the Clyde to land him and later we rendezvoused and joined
ON 169 which had departed Liverpool on 22nd Feb..
From 21st to 25th Feb many U boats attacked ON 166 (it is recorded that on
24th Feb -18 U boats were operating against the convoy).
14 ships were sunk during this battle with a heavy loss of life..
Much information regarding convoy ON 166 was given to me by Arthur Austin
of York.He was a Radio Officer in City of Canberra -Commodore ship of ON 166
and he researched thoroughly the tragedies of ON 166,visiting survivors from
various ships.
A postscript to this is that homeward bound in Cape Howe in HX 235 during
April 1943,another of the ships in that convoy was the Dutch tanker Clavella.
SN member Bernard McIver was a Radio Officer in her at the time..
Regards,Stan


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

Click HERE Lynnelle, for a video film of a convoy to Malta in August 1942.

(There are 12 episodes: if you click on the panel top/right, displaying War Footage, and scroll down you will come to Pedestal Convoy. Only 5 of the 14 merchant ships, which set off for Malta, survived, but that was enough to keep Malta viable as a base and that, with the defeat of Rommel's Africa Corp ensueing, was a turning point in the fortunes of war, for the Allies anyway!)


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## Bernard McIver (Feb 26, 2007)

Thank you Stan for your postscript. It is interesting to note that we were almost together in our Westbound sailings. Clavella was in convoy ON 168 and Cape Howe in ON 169. I well remember the horrendous weather on that crossing. At times difficult to see many of the other ships. Later, on MV Talisse, we spent two years sailing independently in the Pacific & Indian Oceans under strict instructions to avoid contact with any other vessels. "Just a lonely ship upon a lonely ocean".

Regards,
Bernard


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## ssr481 (Feb 2, 2008)

Lynnelle, 

There is one gentleman, a 3rd Engineer, on board the WWII Liberty Ship SS JOHN W BROWN in Baltimore, Charles "Blackie" Blockston, who was on both PQ-16 and PQ-17..here's a link to his description of his experiences on PQ-17 - 

http://www.liberty-ship.com/html/people/blockston.html

I still see Blackie on occasion, during the Chesapeake Bay cruises the BROWN makes.. but he's getting on in years.. a very interesting person to listen to.


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

In post #8 Hugh MacLean makes mention of "damaged lives" resulting from war-time experiences.

There were many! A vivid account of one such appears in the introduction to 
Lt. Commander Roger Hill's account of his life as a commander of destroyers, and his life after leaving the Navy. He writes:-
"The English post-war world had no use for damaged destroyer captains, which was fair enough-no-one owed us a living; but some took it a bit far.
One oil company personnel manager said to me when I sought any kind of work, 'You boys have got to find out the facts of life. You have had all the glamour of the war, whilst we were being bombed in London........' and so on. I knocked him right out of his beautiful leather chair: (I did not get the job).
In 1965 my health cracked up, and deciding the children would have a happier life in New Zealand, we emigrated. I got a job as a 'seagull' which is casual labour on the wharf, loading and discharging the rather few ships which call here at Nelson".

(This from a man who won a DSO & DSC, and who had commanded two famous destroyers, Ledbury & Grenville. You can see and hear his account of escorting the ships to Malta in the Pedestal Convoy video film: episode 8 & 12).


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

An extraordinary photograph taken on board the U.107 which has just torpedoed and sunk the Greek ship Papalemos.
A boat load of survivors has come alongside the U.boat (you'll have to take my word for that) and they are receiving medical and other attention from the crew.
The man stretched out on deck has dislocated his shoulder and is having it re-located; the one sitting on the side has been attended to and is about go back aboard the boat.
Note, somebody had the presence of mind to take the galley kettle along with them and you can see it being handed up to be filled with water.
The Papalemos was sunk in position, 08.06N:16.18W. I believe they were later rescued by an R.N. ship.

(U.107 was commanded by Hessler, son-in-law of Doenitz).


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## Coastie (Aug 24, 2005)

Hugh Ferguson said:


> The date and time recorded, in the Kriegdagbuch of U-604, gives this as, 03.12 on the 23rd Feb. 1943.
> As all U-boats kept their records in Central European Time and the sinking occurred at approximately, Longitude 44W, it is possible that local time may have been as much as 5 hours different; thus making-if the entry in the U-604's log is the correct, and not estimated, date and time-as 22.12 on the 22nd Feb. 1943.
> 
> The entry in German includes the following:-
> ...


I hope you don't mind, Hugh but I asked a German friend of mine to translate, he's come back with:

"The U-604 fired a 4-fold and observed two hits, after this an internal explosion and the sinking of the vessel within 03.00 minutes. The STOCKPORT was the rescue ship of the convoy, which had stayed behind the convoy, the 23:02:43 at 1:00 am she had taken the castaways* of the EMPIRE TRADER on bord .

*/ not sure what the better word is - maybe shipwrecked"


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

Thanks, Coastie. I guessed that a 4er-Facher was a salvo of 4 torpedoes.
So the 'survivors' from the Empire Trader had only 2h.12mins. on board the Stockport before they were again torpedoed.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

stan mayes said:


> Thankyou Hugh and Hugh for the stories and details of a heroic ship and heroic crew - Rescue Ship Stockport.. RIP.
> Fortunately,due to an incident,my ship Cape Howe was not involved in the slaughter of convoy ON 166 in which Stockport was tragically lost..
> We had sailed from the Clyde (maiden voyage) on 13th Feb 1943 intending to
> rendezvous with ON 166 which had departed Liverpool on 11th Feb..
> ...


Long ago,Arthur Austin who was a Radio Officer in City of Canberra
Commodore ship of ON 166 ( see Quote) told me that no survivHe told me they were rescued by an escort..
Checking my books,one book records 'Stockport was sunk by 
U 604 with the loss of all hands..Her Master,50 crew,9 DEMS,4 Navalors
from Empire Trader were rescued by Rescue Ship Stockport.

personell and 91 survivors'..
Another book records ''Empire Trader was torpedoed by U 92 and Stockport stood by for awhile but as she did not sink Stockport went to the rescue of other ships.. when Empire Trader began wallowing in
the sea HMCS Dauphin took off Captain Baker and the crew and sank the ship''
The plaque at Tower Hill memorial records one name for Empire Trader - G.C.Simmons, he was 2nd Engineer on the ship -but it does not mean he was a casualty in the loss of the ship..
Stan


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

stan mayes said:


> Long ago,Arthur Austin who was a Radio Officer in City of Canberra
> Commodore ship of ON 166 ( see Quote) told me that no survivHe told me they were rescued by an escort..
> Checking my books,one book records 'Stockport was sunk by
> U 604 with the loss of all hands..Her Master,50 crew,9 DEMS,4 Navalors
> ...


My apologies for this - from 3rd line it should read -
No survivors form Empire Trader were rescued by Stockport.
But if there were 91 survivors on Stockport they must have been from other ships.
Stan


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## Hugh Ferguson (Sep 4, 2006)

After the Empire Trader was torpedoed, some of the crew, those considered not essential, were taken off by the Stockport. Captain E.T.Baker then tried to save the ship under the escort of _Dauphin_ but the rescue attempt failed and that part of the crew which had been retained in the ship were taken off by _Dauphin_ which then hurried off to catch up with the convoy.
What a bitter irony that if they-those taken aboard the Stockport- had remained in, what after all was a sinking ship, they would have been saved.


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

I sailed in 1963/4 as a cadet on the Cape York (Lyle). The mate was James Cameron . He had been a Master with Hogarth during the War and had an OBE for rescuing people, I believe against orders, but I don't know, he never discussed it.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Hi Hugh,
If some of the crew of Empire Trader were taken off by Stockport
the question must be 'Why are their names not on the plaque at
Tower Hill memorial?


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Stan, Hugh,
My understanding is that all hands from 'EMPIRE TRADER' were transferred to HMCS 'DAUPHIN' and landed at St John's Newfoundland. The sole casualty from 'EMPIRE TRADER', Second Engineer G. C. Simmons is commemorated on the Tower Hill Memorial and was lost earlier in the war, 1940.

Regards
Hugh


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

NoR said:


> I sailed in 1963/4 as a cadet on the Cape York (Lyle). The mate was James Cameron . He had been a Master with Hogarth during the War and had an OBE for rescuing people, I believe against orders, but I don't know, he never discussed it.


Hello NoR,

*'BARON ELGIN' *built in 1933. Survived the war.

London Gazette 11 May 1943 - For the rescue of 84 survivors from sunken ships in convoy.
*Cameron, James - Captain - OBE(Civ)
*
Elliot, Thomas Allen - Steward - Commendation
Hamilton, David Ross - Chief Engineer - Commendation
Megahey, John - Second Engineer - Commendation
White, James Alexander - Chief Radio Officer - Commendation.

Ungazetted award by Lloyd's

*Cameron, James - Captain - Lloyd's Medal for Bravery at Sea.

* His citation for LWM is below.

Regards
Hugh


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