# SS Thistlegorm



## roland1969

Hello there,

I am trying to reconstruct the SS Thistlegorm.
At this moment the ship is at the sea bed on the Red Sea.

I have started with the drawings of the Thistledowne and want to bring it back to the Thistlegorm.
I have made 7 dives and for about 4 hours of film of it.

For now I am just submitting the drawing with the info I have.

www.duikenonline.com/id/sketch02.pdf
www.duikenonline.com/id/sketch03.pdf

I hope the links will work


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## roland1969

Gents,

What is this?

http://petlui.hostingrapid.com/fotos-2004/target259.html

The construction next to the paravaan


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## MikeK

Hi Roland, when did the Thistlegorm sink ? The fact she has a paravane is a bit confusing to me for a merchant ship, did they carry mine sweeping gear in the war?
I sailed on the Thistledowne in '61/62 & I am sorry to say nothing immediately springs to mind on the structure in your photo. In the past I have been on ships that were chosen to carry out projects for scientific bodies that involved sampling of some sort and some of these involved welding on machinery for the launching and recovery of their instruments. Could this be the case with the paravane ?
Sorry I cannot help you

Mke


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## roland1969

Hai Mikek,

The Thistlegorm sunk at 1941 she was bombed.

See http://www.ssthistlegorm.com/


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## roland1969

Some people call it a david so maybe it is some lifting device

http://www.pbase.com/alank/thistlegorm

The Thistlegorm was build to do service in war so that's why he had 2 guns and probably the two paravaan


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## MikeK

roland1969 said:


> Some people call it a david so maybe it is some lifting device
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/alank/thistlegorm
> 
> The Thistlegorm was build to do service in war so that's why he had 2 guns and probably the two paravaan


Hi, I've just had a look at your (great) pictures and that shot of the paravane alongside the Davit is from a better angle. I would say that it is definitely fitted to launch and recover that paravane.

She looked like she certainly had a bellyfull of war supplies in her holds, hope there isn't anything there that could go off with a big bang !!

Best of luck in your project

Mike


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## roland1969

Hai Mike,

Yes, this is so simple if you know it haha it should be to launch the paravaan.

I have put some sketches on this page

http://www.duikenonline.com/id/Survey.html

Now i am trying to figure out the layout of al the loaded equipment.

Are there standard sizes for hatches they are now 23 feet by 33 feet.

Also all the amunition is live one of my friends is with the special forces he never went close to it haha.

For now I asume the ship had about 100 trucks loaded but we will never know.


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## MikeK

roland1969 said:


> Hai Mike,
> 
> Yes, this is so simple if you know it haha it should be to launch the paravaan.
> 
> I have put some sketches on this page
> 
> http://www.duikenonline.com/id/Survey.html
> 
> Now i am trying to figure out the layout of al the loaded equipment.
> 
> Are there standard sizes for hatches they are now 23 feet by 33 feet.
> 
> Also all the ammunition is live one of my friends is with the special forces he never went close to it ha ha.
> 
> For now I assume the ship had about 100 trucks loaded but we will never know.


Hi Roland, I have just followed your link - but I think it would take a full day to look at everything on there ! Regarding your question on hatch sizes, I assume you mean are they all the same size on a ship, in which case the answer is no, not necessarily. The hatch served by the heavy lift derrick(s) was sometimes longer than the others to accommodate more awkward lifts such as the locomotive pictured.
Again best of luck on your project, it certainly seems a big task

Mike


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## roland1969

The blue print of this ship is that available somewere?


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## roland1969

I have the transcript of register fot transmission bla bla bla

On this do***ent there are numbers that I am trying to understand.

They say
Depth in hold from tonnage deck to tank top (i think) amidships FEET 24 TENTHS 8.5
Depth from top of deck at side amidships to bottom keel FEET 28 TENTHS 0.5

Do they mean that the hole ship from bottom to top deck is 28 Feet this is a small figure I thought this should be arround 41 Feet but probably there something I don't get about it?


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## roland1969

Also Round of Beam TENTHS 0.5

What do they mean?


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## roland1969

Gents, 

After 4 years I went back to the Thistlegorm.
I will update my site with new information.

Well the complete site will have a turnover.

We will keep you informed.


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## shipmate17

THISTLEGORM. id 1163052. Built 1940 by Thompson J.L. North Sands. grt 4898. Yard No.599. LPP126.5. Beam 17.7. Number of screws 1T-10.5.
Cheers.


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## rickles23

Hi,
Might be worth contacting the Yorkshire Diver Group, I know a few of the divers have dived on the wreck and they might have other information.

http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/content/

Regards


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## Rod F

*Drawings etc*

Found this on the net - hope it helps

http://www.captainsvoyage-forum.com/showthread.php/659-SS-Thistlegorm-1941-northern-Red-Sea


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## A.D.FROST

THISLEGORM was based on the EMBASSAGE/ROYAL EMBLEM http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum Ships/Old Ships R/slides/Royal Emblem-01.html


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> THISLEGORM was based on the EMBASSAGE/ROYAL EMBLEM http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum Ships/Old Ships R/slides/Royal Emblem-01.html


wow this looks really simalar like the Thistlegorm.


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## roland1969

http://thistlegorm.imgur.com/all/

I have made some sketches indicating how far I am.

It's taking shape all do it maybe does not look like so.


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## A.D.FROST

roland1969 said:


> http://thistlegorm.imgur.com/all/
> 
> I have made some sketches indicating how far I am.
> 
> It's taking shape all do it maybe does not look like so.



View attachment 35717


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## roland1969

Did these ships have a deck with wood against slipping ontop or just steel plates?


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## joebuckham

roland1969 said:


> Did these ships have a deck with wood against slipping ontop or just steel plates?


thistlemuir and thistledale built shortly after had no wood sheathing it was not until the 50s buildings that the decks over the accommodation were sheathed, thistledowne and thistledhu


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## Somerton

Hi Mike,
Was the Thistledowne at one time on charter to Port line as the Port Curtis. It was during the late 1950,s. I sailed as AB with Port Line on a number ships in the 1950,s --1960. I seem to remember the Port Curtis, Port Wanstead (Watts Watt) and the Port Stephens ( Silveroak) Brings back many happy memories.
Regards,
Alex C. R666116.


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## roland1969

I've located the original drawings.

I will wait until I have them in a couple of months.

It will help me a lot in figuring out how the hull is shaped. As for now I needed to help myself with other similar ships.
It will take me some time...

Here on of the old 3d drawings that helped me figuring out and correcting the mistakes. 
http://i.imgur.com/EeSgmNB.jpg


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## A.D.FROST

From the book "The Thistle Boats"
View attachment 35975


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## MikeK

Somerton said:


> Hi Mike,
> Was the Thistledowne at one time on charter to Port line as the Port Curtis. It was during the late 1950,s. I sailed as AB with Port Line on a number ships in the 1950,s --1960. I seem to remember the Port Curtis, Port Wanstead (Watts Watt) and the Port Stephens ( Silveroak) Brings back many happy memories.
> Regards,
> Alex C. R666116.


Hi Alex, sorry cannot help you there. Just dug the old discharge book out and I was third mate on her from 26Sep 1962 to 6dec 1963. Strangely Port Curtis seems vaguely familiar, but for the life of me i don't know why !
Maybe some forum member with access to the history of either company might know ?
Regards

Mike


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## joebuckham

thistledowne was on charter to port line as the port curtis 55 to 61
thistledhu on charter to avenue shipping as the kildare 57 to 60


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## MikeK

joebuckham said:


> thistledowne was on charter to port line as the port curtis 55 to 61
> thistledhu on charter to avenue shipping as the kildare 57 to 60


Cheers Joe, there must have been paperwork and/or some of the crowd still there on my stint to have registered in the old grey matter !

Mike


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## roland1969

http://i.imgur.com/EbCzXyT.jpg

Anchor of the SS Thistlegorm, dimensions I don't know there are too many options for this.

These anchors are still for sale I don't think they changed that much over time.

Funny fact is that they were having an Swastika on it that they removed before the 2nd world war.


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## roland1969

Do you gents think this is an Clarke Chapman steam windlass?

http://www.oceansart.us/FreePhotosSS_John_W_BrownLibertyShip/images/37.html

The SS Thistlegorm had the same.

Added Drawing http://i.imgur.com/Aq5i0CT.jpg


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## A.D.FROST

JOHN W.BROWN is a Liberty Ship and so therefore will be American designed machinary but a typical style steam anchor winch.


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## chadburn

The slots in the flywheel are used to move the winch (steam off) with a purchase bar maid out of flat bar and typical of the Pre WW2 steam winch and windlass.


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> JOHN W.BROWN is a Liberty Ship and so therefore will be American designed machinary but a typical style steam anchor winch.


The SS Thistlegorm and the John W. Brown had the same anchor windlass in my view then...

Is it possible that the wich design was copied or even that the John W. Brown was using winches build from the UK.

Can somebody walk over to the John w.Brown for a minute and check the maker of the winch haha.


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## audierne

In : "The Thistle Boats" by D.C.E. Burell, World Ship Society, 1987, page 44 :
Thistlegorm (1940 - 1941)
O.N. 163052; 4,898 g ; 2,750 n ; 415.1 x 58.2 x 24.8 ft ; (431,8 ft) shelter decker.
T(3) by North Eastern Marine Engineering Co (1938) Ltd.? Sunderland.
23"/38"/65" x 42".2 boilers/ 220 psi.1850 ihp.10.5knots.
9.4.1940 launched by Mrs K. W. Black and 6.1940 completed by J.L. Thompson & Sons Ltd., Sunderland (599). 
6.10.1941 bombed by He 111 of II/KG 26 and sunk at anchorage "F" in Strait of Jubal, Gulf of Suez.
Glasgow and Table Bay for Suez, general, stores and transport. 9 lost.


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## A.D.FROST

All jet engines look the same but are not all Rolls Royce(don't forget we showned the Yanks how to build them too),like wise with steam Windlass.The reason why we had ships built in the States because we could not keep up with the supply and demand.(spot the differance of a windless built in 1880's to the one built in1940's)Have a look at this http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=42253
View attachment 36284


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## Marsh.

Hi, One of Clarke Chapman steam winches.
http://imageshack.us/a/img577/2648/g5x4.jpg


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## chadburn

Good winch the Clarke Chapman the only problems I can remember were broken teeth (Bolt Stitch repair), brake band material renewal (either Wood Block or Ferodo) and the bottom Taper pin shearing on the direction changeover spindle.


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## roland1969

Marsh. said:


> Hi, One of Clarke Chapman steam winches.
> http://imageshack.us/a/img577/2648/g5x4.jpg


Yes, it is more or less the same design.

Thanks for that.


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## Marsh.

Clarke Chapman is not far from the yard the ship was built at, so more chance it was a Clarke's job. Worked in Clarkes for 12 years.(Thumb)
Marsh.


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## Somerton

Thanks Joe, I was ab on the Port Vindex in 1958 and I remember seeing the Port Curtis ( Thistledowne ) also the I think it was Watts Watt,s Wanstead or Wendover on charter to Port Line during that time. Happy memories.
Regards,
Alex C.


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## roland1969

Gents,

I have an measurement of the Thistlegorm of overall length 131.6m or 431 feet 10 inch.

The official do***ents state the length of the Thistlegorm is 415 feet and 1 tenths 126.5m from the fore part of the stern to the aft side of the head of the stern post.

I am confused now.

There is such a thing like registered length like on this picture http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ship_size_(side_view).PNG

Funny enough the dimension taken from the steering axle to the front of the upper deck is 126.5m just like the picture...So could it be that the SS Thistlegorm is really longer then stated on the official do***ents (registered length)?


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## roland1969

Gents,

I have an indication with the Half Beams.

I know what the half beams are but it also says B.A. N.B.S.

What does that mean?


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## roland1969

roland1969 said:


> Gents,
> 
> I have an indication with the Half Beams.
> 
> I know what the half beams are but it also says B.A. N.B.S.
> 
> What does that mean?


N.B.S. New British Standard I think or National building specification.
B.A. typ of profile Bulb Angled I Think


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## joebuckham

roland1969 said:


> Gents,
> 
> I have an measurement of the Thistlegorm of overall length 131.6m or 431 feet 10 inch.
> 
> The official do***ents state the length of the Thistlegorm is 415 feet and 1 tenths 126.5m from the fore part of the stern to the aft side of the head of the stern post.
> 
> I am confused now.
> 
> There is such a thing like registered length like on this picture http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ship_size_(side_view).PNG
> 
> Funny enough the dimension taken from the steering axle to the front of the upper deck is 126.5m just like the picture...So could it be that the SS Thistlegorm is really longer then stated on the official do***ents (registered length)?


physically yes. what you require is length overall ( LOA )

perhaps these inserts will help

regards joe b


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## roland1969

Gents,

What was the use of the forward anchor david. Seated on the forecastle deck?


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## A.D.FROST

For hanging the Suez Canal light or to take ropes,paint etc from the fo'cel head via the booby hatch


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## roland1969

Seems like every new part I am planning to draw up has it difficulties determine how they worked and looked like.
Now I am making the upper structures. 

After everything is build this might become a new cargo ship wiki haha.

Do you gents have detailed pictures of lifeboats on a ship.

See my first drawn up....










Edit: 
O and the space for the lifeboat is like 17 feet or like 5.3m it's that seems not to much...
Also mostly I see like 4 lifeboats on a cargo ship. But there is no indication for more then 2 on the SS Thistlegorm?


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## A.D.FROST

THISTLEGORM had 4 life boats.2 on Bridge Deck and 2 side Funnel (Boat deck)The davits she had were quite common here area few examples and can be seen on lots of museum models.


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> THISTLEGORM had 4 life boats.2 on Bridge Deck and 2 side Funnel (Boat deck)The davits she had were quite common here area few examples and can be seen on lots of museum models.
> View attachment 38354
> View attachment 38355


Thanks for the info.


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## roland1969

Updated the forecastle deck

http://i.imgur.com/ZpHuqsV.jpg


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## A.D.FROST

Middle pair of bollards would have a cut out in the hand rails for access(hand rails normally follow the ship side)


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## Phil O

I've dived the Thistlegorm many times over the years and have really enjoyed whizzing through the holds. I've always found it best to dive it with a scooter to gain access to items further afield from the wreck. When the boat was bombed it was carrying a couple of steam train engines on its main deck. These were blown off and both are sat on the ocean floor around 50 m from the hull. Amazingly both engines landed in their wheels and sitting proudly upright on the bottom.

On the night the 'Gorm was hit in its hold carrying weapons the sky was lit up to such an extent that the bomber pilots had a great view and spotted another ship at anchor on the other side of the Red Sea. They came back a couple of nights later and hit the ss Rosalie Muller and that wreck is sitting in about 45m of water. Not as clear but great fish life on it.

One of my other fave wrecks in the Red Sea lies on Abu Nuhas reef - the Giannis D. Must get my photos out


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## roland1969

Hello gents,

Do you have information about the use and or construction of the Paravanes.
From the Merchant ship UK around 1940.

Is there always a line starting from the bottom of the bow attached to the paravane?

looks like she had Vickers type Paravanes http://www.kacr.de/wracks/thistlegorm.htm

Thanks.


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## Binnacle

roland1969 said:


> Hai Mike,
> 
> Also all the amunition is live one of my friends is with the special forces he never went close to it haha.


Among the cargo she carried were 15" naval shells.


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## roland1969

Another question.

Centerline bulkheads 26'' or 30''

What is the 26'' indicating?

Edit ah I think I see a .26'' then a plate thickness is probaly indicated. 26inch would be a bit to much.


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## roland1969

Hello gents me again with a new question.

When I place some trucks on the lower hold I have a space left above the trucks of about 15’or 4.5m

http://www.mastermariners.ca/capital/veterans.php almost on the bottom of the page.

On this site they loaded the trucks on top of some bulk cargo.

Is this common maybe the trucks on the SS Thistlegorm are also on top of bulk cargo?


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## A.D.FROST

This would be strengthed crated or boxed cargo such as spares,ammo etc.supported by dunage making a even surface to allow the tanks to sit on it.


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## roland1969

Is it possible that the auxiliary boiler was not in line with the main 2 boiler.

The boiler room has an width of about 34 feet or 10.5m height is about 25 feet or 7.8m
So an setup like OoO doesn't fit but two main boilers would fit.


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## A.D.FROST

roland1969 said:


> Is it possible that the auxiliary boiler was not in line with the main 2 boiler.
> 
> The boiler room has an width of about 34 feet or 10.5m height is about 25 feet or 7.8m
> So an setup like OoO doesn't fit but two main boilers would fit.


Is it possible you have the wrong dimensions since the standard ER arrangement as shown in forum http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=51909&highlight=thistlegorm&page=2 which covers all steam recip powered vessels such as Liberty,Fort,Parks etc.because it makes for a compact and efficient boiler flat.


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