# Masters Certificate



## Mac

On 7th October David William Duncan posted in the gallery a picture of his 1974 Masters Certificate.
I wondered in a comment I posted, why in 1974 a master was qualified to fulfill the duties of Master of a foreign going ship in the Merchant Navy, whereas on my ticket (1961 vintage 91039) the similar phrase was to fulfill the duties of Master of a foreign going steamship in the Merchant service.
I can perhaps understand the dropping of "steamship" but when was the "service" replaced with navy ?, and what is the current phrase.

Since the photo and comments in gallery seem to be having a rest I still wonder when and why the changes were made and this is why I posted this thread.

Cheers

Mac.


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## John Briggs

When ships commenced being built with engines and the sails were removed certificates had to be changed to denote whether a person was competent to be in charge of a steamship (Power driven) or a square rigger as the skills required were quite different. I am not sure of the dates by any means but I'm sure that other members would have a far better idea.

Each country issued its own certificates and the wording varied considerably. The British Commonwealth nations tended to keep to the U.K. wording for may years and the term steamship lasted into the 80's until the STCW Convention was implemented. As far as merchant navy and merchant service are concerned I have no idea.

All seafaring nations are now required to have very similar wording in their certificates in accordance with the STCW Convention. These wording changes were implemented in the early 2000's. I have attached a copy of my original masters ticket and also the latest wording - these certificates are Australian.


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## Peter4447

Hi Mac
Can't really help with when things were changed but the term Merchant Navy came into being in 1922, when it was granted as a mark of appreciation by King George V for the work the Merchant service did in the 1914-18 War. Interestingly people serving in Merchant ships in the 1914-18 War were entitled to the Mercantile Marine Medal.
Peter4447(Thumb)


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## slick

Peter and Mac,
I seem to remember a Captain I sailed under pointing out to me that on his Masters Certificate that the certificate number was preceeded by the letters CSS which he said it stood for "Command of a Steam Ship".
I don't know when that was stopped.
Yours aye,
Skick


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## Mac

Thank you John, Peter and Slick.
John, I notice that the Australian ticket of 1965 and the UK ticket of 1961 both refer to Merchant Service. But by 1974 the UK tickets had changed this to Merchant Navy.
Since as Peter points out the term Merchant Navy was coined in 1922, it seems a long time for the change to have become effective.

Cheers

Mac


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## John Briggs

To the best of my memory Mac, the Aussie tickets never changed to Merchant Navy. I think we went straight to the STCW wording after the Convention came into force.


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## Charlie_Wood

I don't know when "Service" changed to "Navy", but I got my ticket just as things started to go downhill. At least they had the decency to put the desired piece of paper in the front.


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## lakercapt

Gone are the times that it was all done in beautiful copper plate calligraphy too


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## Cap'n Pete

lakercapt said:


> Gone are the times that it was all done in beautiful copper plate calligraphy too


I remember with absolute fury the day my master's certificate was replaced by the new STCW type about 10 years ago. My old master's certificate, with it;s copperpleate writing, had been cancelled with a six-inch stamp overprinting my name with CANCELLED, and the corner cut off. I phoned the MCA and complained, but was just passed off as a lunatic by a secretary. I had hoped to leave my master's certificate to my family as a momento of something that was really important in my life, but somehow the new type of class 1 master's certificate just not seem worth keeping after I've gone.


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## captainchris

I revalidated again in January and my CoC has got smaller again. Has anyone got a new one? It just says "in the capacity of Master" and signed by Roger Towner, who had left the MCA by then. I also got a nice certificate from the MCA, which is in Gothic script, certifying that I was duly qualified in the capacity of Master in 2001 under the provision of STCW 1978, I don't know where they got the dat from as I have been Master (certificated) since 1980!!
Still, the certificate looks classy, but on top of the other fees, how much more was added to the revalidation costs?

Best regards,

Chris


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## duquesa

Many years ago I joined a Panamanian flag vessel (British owned) in New York. I was required to go to the Panamanian Embassy to obtain my Panamanian certificate. I needed to produce my British certificate, two passport photos and pay $20. The Second Mate, Third Engineer and Chief Steward accompanied me. No problem but on our return and over a beer, we examined out brand new certificates. The Chief Steward was duly certificated as "steam & diesel". Now there's a thing!.


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## mclean

duquesa said:


> Many years ago I joined a Panamanian flag vessel (British owned) in New York. I was required to go to the Panamanian Embassy to obtain my Panamanian certificate. I needed to produce my British certificate, two passport photos and pay $20. The Second Mate, Third Engineer and Chief Steward accompanied me. No problem but on our return and over a beer, we examined out brand new certificates. The Chief Steward was duly certificated as "steam & diesel". Now there's a thing!.


But, did it improve the standard of food? Colin


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## duquesa

Well as it happens, the ship was a good feeder, run by a good company so, no complaints on that score. He dined out on that story quite often.


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## Allan Wareing

Cap'n Pete said:


> I remember with absolute fury the day my master's certificate was replaced by the new STCW type about 10 years ago. My old master's certificate, with it;s copperpleate writing, had been cancelled with a six-inch stamp overprinting my name with CANCELLED, and the corner cut off. I phoned the MCA and complained, but was just passed off as a lunatic by a secretary. I had hoped to leave my master's certificate to my family as a momento of something that was really important in my life, but somehow the new type of class 1 master's certificate just not seem worth keeping after I've gone.


My certificate is one of the copperplate ones- the last time I used as master was in 1959 .Don't know what would happen if I tried to use it now. Will try to attach a pic.
Allan Wareing.


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## Lefty

In Jan de Hartog's several sea stories he calls the Captains, Master before God! Doesn't say that on my cert. but perhaps it does on Dutch tickets! 
Heavy going, not Foreign Going!
BFN H


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## Duncan112

Interesting, I thought the certificates got shoddier as I progressed up the ranks, my original chiefs certificate had the glue coming through causing the ink to run - then came the STCW one - the only surprise with that was the map was not stamped "not to be used for navigation"!!. However to the point, my first Hong Kong Equivalent COC is dated 27 June 1997 - any chance pf proving it was the last British (HK) COmbined Chiefs issued?

Cheers,

Duncan


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## John Beaton

The tall ship "James Craig" now sails out of Sydney, fully restored to her former glory. She was built in England in 1874 as the Clan MacLeod and for 26 years plied the ocean sail routes before becoming a general cargo carrier around the Australian coast in 1900. Captain Ken Edwards was a driving force behind the restoration, but for insurance purposes required a "Sail Endorsement" before taking command. Already long retired, he undertook a voyage under sail around Cape Horn to the UK, and then studied for Master Square Rig. No Extra Master Square rig could be found to examine in orals, so the authorities appointed an honorary examiner to do the examination. So today the James Craig again sails out of Sydney taking passengers to briefly feel the thrill of sailing under square rig.


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## jaydeeare

I've read thee Posts with interest, but what has astounded me morewas in John's pictures especially where one states 'Requires spectacles or contact lenses to meet minimum in-service eyesight requirements'.

I apologise for going off the subject of this Thread, but this has quite suprised me. When were Navigation Officers allowed to wear spectacles or contact lenses?

I was prevented from going to see as a Navigation Cadet because I just failed my sight-test! We were not allowed to wear any artificial aids. This was back in 1968.

Again, I apologise for deviating from the main subject of this very interesting Thread


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## Dave Wilson

Cap'n Pete said:


> I remember with absolute fury the day my master's certificate was replaced by the new STCW type about 10 years ago. My old master's certificate, with it;s copperpleate writing, had been cancelled with a six-inch stamp overprinting my name with CANCELLED, and the corner cut off. I phoned the MCA and complained, but was just passed off as a lunatic by a secretary. I had hoped to leave my master's certificate to my family as a momento of something that was really important in my life, but somehow the new type of class 1 master's certificate just not seem worth keeping after I've gone.


Capn Pete,
I can sympathise. On first revalidation I claimed I had lost mine and produced a photostat. My Master's (FG) 1971 is intact. The STCW thing means nothing.

Dave


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## John Briggs

Johnny,

International regulations have allowed seafarers to meet the required eyesight standards with the use of aids to vision at least since the introduction of the STCW Convention in 1978. Aids are not allowed for colour vision requirements.


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## hughesy

*Jan Der Hartog "The Captain"*

I was working with a guy from Pensilvannia., he was a chippy and he knew I'd been to sea asked me if I'd read the Book "The Captain" by Jan Der Hartog.I
said I have read that book. Then he told me he had worked on Capt Hartog's house. He was impressed that I'd known the book and me likewise, that he'd met the author?
all the best
Hughesy


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## jaydeeare

Thanks for the info JB, much appreciated!

Too late for me by then anyway


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## mmurray

*Roger Towner*



captainchris said:


> I revalidated again in January and my CoC has got smaller again. Has anyone got a new one? It just says "in the capacity of Master" and signed by Roger Towner, who had left the MCA by then. I also got a nice certificate from the MCA, which is in Gothic script, certifying that I was duly qualified in the capacity of Master in 2001 under the provision of STCW 1978, I don't know where they got the dat from as I have been Master (certificated) since 1980!!
> Still, the certificate looks classy, but on top of the other fees, how much more was added to the revalidation costs?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Chris


Have checked the MCA business directory and Roger Towner stil works for them.


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## johnalderman

The use of aids for eye sight tests has been in place since at least 1970.


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## jaydeeare

Jack, did that also apply to Deck Cadets/Apprentices?


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## johnalderman

Not sure but a very good friend of mine borderline failed in 1968, had a special eye test in London and just passed, by 1970 he passed the test wearing glasses, I think he was the first in South Shields to do so. But this was for a ticket not a new starter.


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## slick

All,
When I retired in a sudden rush of vanity I decided to get some Business Cards printed I opted for my name and Master Mariner.
I thought little of it until I presented one to a Conservative MP, he said "I am impressed, it tells me exactly what you are"
Yours aye,
Slick


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## Bill Davies

Quote: John Alderman - _The use of aids for eye sight tests has been in place since at least 1970._:Unquote

John,

Are you sure about that? It certainly was not the case for me in 67 and I have spoken to several who were up for Master's(FG) in the 70s (pre STCW78) and they were unaware. May simply because it did not effect them!

Bill


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## johnalderman

100% certain a good friend of mine for over 40 years now, passed his eye sight test for 2nd mates in 1970 with the aid of glasses, he was I'm almost sure the first in South Shields to do so, I therefore think the rules were changed in 1970.


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## Topherjohn

*Eyesight Tests and Masters Certificate*

Towards the end of study for 2nd Mates in 1963 I presented myself in Southampton with others for my eyesight test. First in line, failed the lantern test. Examiner said not to worry, sit at the end of line and try again. Second time around, eyes watering, failed again! Even gave me a third attempt with next batch of examinees. OK, he kindly suggested, its lunch time now, go out, have a pint and several carrots, then return and have another go! Returned after 5 lbs of carrots (just kidding), passed by a whisker at fourth attempt! Eventually made it to Masters in 1969 of which I'm modestly proud. Loved my years at sea. My Masters Cert. served well as my "degree" when ashore and for rest of my working life. Now retired I'm indebted to and will remain utterly grateful to the kindly examiner till the day I cross the bar.


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## jaydeeare

I only had 2 cracks at the sight test, the initial and a second a little while later.

My problem was in one eye only. As it happened, it was the first eye he tested. He never bothered to check the other eye, or both eyes together. That one eye failure was sufficient for him to pronounce me 'Unfit for Deck Service'.

Sorry that this has veered away from the initial Thread.


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## Dave Wilson

slick said:


> All,
> When I retired in a sudden rush of vanity I decided to get some Business Cards printed I opted for my name and Master Mariner.
> I thought little of it until I presented one to a Conservative MP, he said "I am impressed, it tells me exactly what you are"
> Yours aye,
> Slick


Sailed with several Cooks who I suggested should use the title Master Baker as that described them very well.


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## David K

.... 'Had the pleasure of sailing under two "Skippers" with "Extra Masters" both Sail and Steam. Strange, but neither one drank nor swore ! The first,( Capt.William McCauley) was in Command of the first ship I ever joined, and he used the Tugs more because the Company insisted ( probably for Insurance purposes ) ... 'Always impressed me, the way he'd "park" the ship, after turning it 180 degrees, in confined waters, to come alongside the Dock, prior discharging the cargo, of Iron Ore in Newcastle ( Australia ) ... David K.


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## Bill Davies

Not too sure I like the 'skipper' terminology. It has a fishing boat 'ring' to it.
If one has difficulty with Captain then Master (which I prefer) seems to be more appropriate.


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## Topherjohn

*Captain Master Skipper?*



Bill Davies said:


> Not too sure I like the 'skipper' terminology. It has a fishing boat 'ring' to it.
> If one has difficulty with Captain then Master (which I prefer) seems to be more appropriate.


I agree with Bill's comment but don't think we need to be too pedantic when "chatting" about these things. I don't consider myself a particular authority on the following so please comment if you know better. 
I always understood Captain to be the rank (title) and the term Master (derived from the navigator's Master Mariner title of centuries ago) indicates i/c of an ocean-going merchant vessel i.e. tanker, liner, cruise ship, cargo ship. 
The media and new presenters always seem to get it wrong by saying "The Captain of the mv ......... said ......" instead of "The Master of the mv ......, Captain Smith, said .......".
Traditionally the term Skipper I believe is used to denote the person i/c of smaller craft e.g. yacht, tug, fishing v/l. Presumably however the skipper may also be entitled to the title of Captain depending on his/her professional qualification.
Similarly in the RN I believe the person i/c of a warship might have any of several ranks, for example Lieutenant (patrol craft), Captain (frigate) or Rear-Admiral (aircraft carrier) depending on type of ship, but always is referred to as the Commander of the vessel.


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## JimC

*A rose by any other name?*



Topherjohn said:


> I agree with Bill's comment but don't think we need to be too pedantic when "chatting" about these things. I don't consider myself a particular authority on the following so please comment if you know better.
> I always understood Captain to be the rank (title) and the term Master (derived from the navigator's Master Mariner title of centuries ago) indicates i/c of an ocean-going merchant vessel i.e. tanker, liner, cruise ship, cargo ship.
> The media and new presenters always seem to get it wrong by saying "The Captain of the mv ......... said ......" instead of "The Master of the mv ......, Captain Smith, said .......".
> Traditionally the term Skipper I believe is used to denote the person i/c of smaller craft e.g. yacht, tug, fishing v/l. Presumably however the skipper may also be entitled to the title of Captain depending on his/her professional qualification.
> Similarly in the RN I believe the person i/c of a warship might have any of several ranks, for example Lieutenant (patrol craft), Captain (frigate) or Rear-Admiral (aircraft carrier) depending on type of ship, but always is referred to as the Commander of the vessel.


Actually Chris it goes a bit further back than that. I understand that of the present day sea-faring terms 'Commander' 'Captain', 'Master' and 'Skipper' the last one is the oldest. Indeed, the King of Scotland had a Navy long before many other European nations and exclusively used the term for all his commanders . There is, in fact part of an old poem- think it's the Ballad of Sir Patrick Spence which has the then King asking something like: ' Oh whar will I get a skeelie-skipper to sail this new ship of mine?' (it turned-out that old 'Spencie' was indeed that boy!). As far as the other terms are concerned; I think you'll find that these were pinched from the 'brown jobs' (army) of the times. All of the mentioned ranks existed in all armies way back in time and were used at sea as well. If you read some of the popular naval stories about the napoleonic times you will note that the Commander (he who was in command) of a naval vessel was anything from a Midshipman up to Flag rank. Usually that person was termed the 'captain' but in almost every case there was a 'Master' who virtually ran the technical side of the ship. Not surprising in the days when the 'Master' was the professional sailorman and the 'Captain' could easily have purchased his commision or had upset his aristocratic family and was bundled off to sea to either come back a hero with a fortune or just quietly disappear from memory.
The term 'Captain' has been somewhat down graded in the USA when it would seem - from some of the Hollywood films dished-out that anyone who has a vessel of any shape or size separating him or her from the water is termed a 'Captain'. Takes away from it just a smidgen don't you think?
I, like others herein am well pleased with what I have achieved in life . Although I went on to get more 'bits of paper', getting my Master Mariner (FG) Certificate was by far the height of my academic life.
There's heaps of Bscs and the likes out there on all kinds of subjects. However you lot with your old MN Masters and Chiefs 'bits of paper' are a very special lot - members of a very exclusive club.

JimC


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## Dave Wilson

JimC
_*There's heaps of Bscs and the likes out there on all kinds of subjects. However you lot with your old MN Masters and Chiefs 'bits of paper' are a very special lot - members of a very exclusive club.*_

Totally agree! I have picked up a BSc & MSc over the years and they were as easy as falling of a log compared to Master's(FG) 73 vintage.


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## Topherjohn

JimC said:


> Actually Chris it goes a bit further back than that. ......
> etc etc ...............
> I, like others herein am well pleased with what I have achieved in life . Although I went on to get more 'bits of paper', getting my Master Mariner (FG) Certificate was by far the height of my academic life.
> There's heaps of Bscs and the likes out there on all kinds of subjects. However you lot with your old MN Masters and Chiefs 'bits of paper' are a very special lot - members of a very exclusive club.
> 
> JimC


Thanks Jim for the very interesting historical background. Master Mariner FG and Chief's cert. is the height of our acedemic achievements, forms an exclusive club? Sadly today too many don't even know they existed but how right you are; it's a great privilege to belong.


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## forthbridge

JimC said:


> Actually Chris it goes a bit further back than that. I understand that of the present day sea-faring terms 'Commander' 'Captain', 'Master' and 'Skipper' the last one is the oldest. Indeed, the King of Scotland had a Navy long before many other European nations and exclusively used the term for all his commanders . There is, in fact part of an old poem- think it's the Ballad of Sir Patrick Spence which has the then King asking something like: ' Oh whar will I get a skeelie-skipper to sail this new ship of mine?' (it turned-out that old 'Spencie' was indeed that boy!). As far as the other terms are concerned; I think you'll find that these were pinched from the 'brown jobs' (army) of the times. All of the mentioned ranks existed in all armies way back in time and were used at sea as well. If you read some of the popular naval stories about the napoleonic times you will note that the Commander (he who was in command) of a naval vessel was anything from a Midshipman up to Flag rank. Usually that person was termed the 'captain' but in almost every case there was a 'Master' who virtually ran the technical side of the ship. Not surprising in the days when the 'Master' was the professional sailorman and the 'Captain' could easily have purchased his commision or had upset his aristocratic family and was bundled off to sea to either come back a hero with a fortune or just quietly disappear from memory.
> The term 'Captain' has been somewhat down graded in the USA when it would seem - from some of the Hollywood films dished-out that anyone who has a vessel of any shape or size separating him or her from the water is termed a 'Captain'. Takes away from it just a smidgen don't you think?
> I, like others herein am well pleased with what I have achieved in life . Although I went on to get more 'bits of paper', getting my Master Mariner (FG) Certificate was by far the height of my academic life.
> There's heaps of Bscs and the likes out there on all kinds of subjects. However you lot with your old MN Masters and Chiefs 'bits of paper' are a very special lot - members of a very exclusive club.
> 
> JimC


Jim you did not mention the Sir Patrick Spens was probably not a good choice for skipper as the ship sunk half ower fae aberdour wi the Scots Lords at his feet.


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## Jim MacIntyre

This seems like a good thread to open up a pet peeve of mine. 
Some companies introduced the title 'Ships Manager'. 
This always ticked me off. Even though I left the sea with a 2nd Mates I continued to work in shipping most of my business life. I always had respect for those that achieved the rank of Captain through having some idea of the work and sacrifices involved. Are there any Ship Managers out there similarly offended ?? 
Jim Mac


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## Dave Wilson

Jim MacIntyre said:


> This seems like a good thread to open up a pet peeve of mine.
> Some companies introduced the title 'Ships Manager'.
> This always ticked me off. Even though I left the sea with a 2nd Mates I continued to work in shipping most of my business life. I always had respect for those that achieved the rank of Captain through having some idea of the work and sacrifices involved. Are there any Ship Managers out there similarly offended ??
> Jim Mac


Offended? No!
Prior to entering Ship management I had seven years in command followed by 5 years Piloting in PG which gave me adequate experience for the work I do today. The trend in recent years in SM is to employ people with Class1 with 'Senior Officer' experience ( all of whom are Captains!/!??). Unfortunately, the seagoing staff have little knowledge of Captain Ahabs true background. It is only a matter of time before his background manifests itself in some incident which the experienced Shipmaster will spot. Ship management in different trades needs a different mindset. As an example a man recruited from say Arklow Shipping would have a steep learning curve here where I would need similar operating on AS level.


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## JimC

forthbridge said:


> Jim you did not mention the Sir Patrick Spens was probably not a good choice for skipper as the ship sunk half ower fae aberdour wi the Scots Lords at his feet.


Ah! but then probably his owners saved the ex-Spens! and did not equip him with VHF,GPS systems, radar or any other sic flumerty!


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## Lancastrian

Topherjohn said:


> Similarly in the RN I believe the person i/c of a warship might have any of several ranks, for example Lieutenant (patrol craft), Captain (frigate) or Rear-Admiral (aircraft carrier) depending on type of ship, but always is referred to as the Commander of the vessel.


Actually they are called The Commanding Officer. "The Commander" is the second in command of a large warship.
Admirals, of whatever grade, do not command single ships.


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## Dave Wilson

Lancastrian said:


> Actually they are called The Commanding Officer. "The Commander" is the second in command of a large warship.
> Admirals, of whatever grade, do not command single ships.


Don't know too much about RFA structure but there is one thing that is sure to send me ballistic is the title 'skipper' which to my mind has _*fishing boat *_implication and I worked too hard for Masters for that connotation.

Dave


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## johnalderman

Nothing wrong with fishing boats!!!!!!My Cod and Chips wouldnt taste the same without them.


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## Dave Wilson

Fishing Boats!!! Just wish they would choose not to impede deep drafted vessels in their navigation. Cod and Chips???? Prefer Haddock!!


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## johnalderman

When the net is included fishing vessels are very deep drafted also this might just confine them to a certain course and speed also.(Thumb)


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## Dave Wilson

Oh, thats OK then. I never thought of that!


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## Topherjohn

*RN - who's in command?*



Lancastrian said:


> Actually they are called The Commanding Officer. "The Commander" is the second in command of a large warship.
> Admirals, of whatever grade, do not command single ships.


Happy to stand corrected re: "Commanding Officer"; I found the following which supports your correction on RN website http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk "Commanding Officer" The officer in command of one H.M. ships, whatever his actual rank, is addressed as "The Commanding Officer"
However puzzled by what you say re: "The Commander" being the 2 i/c of large warship nor did I find anything to support this on RN website, Commander being an RN rank. Nevertheless you may be right. 
I can see the logic re: "Admiral" not necessarily commanding the warship he flies his flag on, presumably as he could be i/c of a whole Fleet. But might not the "Commanding Officer" of an aircraft carrier have the rank of, say, Rear-Admiral with an Admiral also on board flying his flag i/c a fleet of warships?
Any RN experts on SN able to provide the definitive version?


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## McCloggie

Correct about the RN - you "command" a ship from any rank from S/Lt to Captain, but there was one Admiral who Commanded his own ship and that was Flag Officer Royal Yaught swho "drove" Britannia.

The term Skipper was sometimes used in small ships but not often in my humble experience.

As for Master or Captain, in the Offshore game we refer to the "Master/OIM" when describing the person in command of a disconnectable FPSO vessel that retains the ability to leave the field under own power (i.e. for weather reasons).

In all procedures and regulations/guidelines he/she is refferd to as Master/OIM.

I have no idea what their certificates look like however or whether they class themselves as Offshore, MN or Merchant Service!

McC


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## McCloggie

Topherjohn;

Yes, he is known as the The Commander if he is 2 i/c as on large warships there may well be other Commander ranks - COmmander Air, Commander (E) or even the PMO (Doc.).

On smaller ships - and indeed shore bases - a more junior officer as 2 i/c is usually known as the XO and at sea the First Lt. (goes back to the days when there were Mids, Lts, then Captains, Post Captains - who were guaranteed promotion to flag rank on seniority alone and pension - and Admirals)

McC


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## jaydeeare

I always thought the 2 i/c on a RN ship was the First Lieutenant or 'No. 1' sometimes called 'Johnny the One'.


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## McCloggie

Jaydeeare - The 1st Lt is known as Jimmy-the One or simply "The Jimmy" - please do not ask why as I do not know! But he is also the XO as that is his job. He is also known and adressed as No. 1 by the CO and some of the officers. This person will normally be up to and including Lt Cdr.

On larger ships (or senior ships where the CO is a ranking 4-ring Captain)however, as I said previously, you have a 3-ring Commander. And believe me, he is "The Commander"! As a junior NEVER try and call him No. 1!

It may sound complicated, but you must remember that the CO can be a junior officer, the squadron or flotilla commander will be a senior officer and all ranks come between. 

Trust me - it works! Everyone knows who they are and where they are in the command structure!

Having said that, since working offshore life is a lot simpler - the man in charge is the Master and his 2 i/c is the Chief Officer and that system works just as well.

McC


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## Lancastrian

"I can see the logic re: "Admiral" not necessarily commanding the warship he flies his flag on, presumably as he could be i/c of a whole Fleet. But might not the "Commanding Officer" of an aircraft carrier have the rank of, say, Rear-Admiral with an Admiral also on board flying his flag i/c a fleet of warships?"

Just to complete McCloggie's excellent explanation (and to get away from fishing boats & ROR), no, the CO of an aircraft carrier is never higher than Captain, regardless of any Flag Officer embarked to command the fleet, flotilla or these days, Task Group.


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## jaydeeare

Thanks McCloggie, I knew it was 'Something the One', just got the name mixed up..... doh!


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## Topherjohn

*RN - who's in command?*

Lancastrian (& McCloggie)
Many thanks for the clarification. If you learn just one thing every day you're not doing too badly (smoking is bad for your health for example)! 
(Jester)
PS Is an umbilical chord a naval engagement?


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## JimC

Lancastrian said:


> "I can see the logic re: "Admiral" not necessarily commanding the warship he flies his flag on, presumably as he could be i/c of a whole Fleet. But might not the "Commanding Officer" of an aircraft carrier have the rank of, say, Rear-Admiral with an Admiral also on board flying his
> 
> Just to complete McCloggie's excellent explanation (and to get away from fishing boats & ROR), no, the CO of an aircraft carrier is never higher than Captain, regardless of any Flag Officer embarked to command the fleet, flotilla or these days, Task Group.


As a matter of fact, one of the commanders of HMS Illustrious' held the rank of Rear Admiral. Don't know if this was a post retirement rank or not.

Jim C.


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## Lancastrian

So what was his name?


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## slick

All,
A tale, true or not true I merely repeat it for the yarn factor.
A late night in HMS Osprey and Prince Andrew was partaking of a late night cup, in the Wardroom when the Duty Commander called to ensure the place was battened down for the night.
On seeing the Commander, Prince Andrew said "I'm the Duke of York but you
can call me Andrew", the Commander replied "I'm the Duty Commander and you can call me, Sir!" 
Yours aye,
Slick

Note , this may have appeared elsewhere on the web.


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## JimC

Lancastrian said:


> So what was his name?


Can't remember but I know he is a member of a yacht association which has loads of RN members. I was Harbour Master in a small port when he arrived on a cruise in company with three other small yachts about five years ago. He told me 'Illustrious' was his last command. I told him he had just missed her as she had been in port the week before. He scoffed at this story as the entrance to the port was a dog-leg round an island. Actually it was a large scale model of the ship into which a guy had fitted a concealed OB motor. It was really brilliant. The guy sat inside the hull and it travelled round the harbour for the kids to see. 
HMS 'Bighter' an RN Patrol Boat was in at the time and there was a video going round which showed her and 'Illustrious' leaving port in line astern. The film was made to look as if Illustriuos was full size it was very realistic.

Jim C.


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## Lancastrian

Interesting. I suspect several COs of Illustrious and other carriers were selected for promotion whilst in command but probably didnt assume the rank until their next appointment. One even made First Sea Lord.


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## jimthehat

johnalderman said:


> Not sure but a very good friend of mine borderline failed in 1968, had a special eye test in London and just passed, by 1970 he passed the test wearing glasses, I think he was the first in South Shields to do so. But this was for a ticket not a new starter.


In 1979 i was sent up to london for a medical.i failed the eyesight,I explained to the doc that i could see perfectly well with glasses,but he was not impressed.
next day i rejoined my ship as C/0 (ferry) and a couple of hours later there was a message saying that i would be relieved on return.
next day i was relieved and told my sea service was finished,the company were very good and kept me on pay and in time I received £750 medical redundancy.
That day 27/11/79 remains clear in my memory as my whole life was changed from that day on,the union fought on my behalf for a long time but to no avail.

jim+


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