# Capt Henry Moore, Athel Line



## dragnil

Hi,

I know most of the dramatic (?) events of my Grandfather's career such as being sunk by Jap dive bombers in 1942, but there are still many gaps and some hints are even more intriguing than the drama.

I have a photograph on the back of which my GF had written the record of a voyage (see the pdf) and I am left in admiration for the men who would set out on such a journey with no idea when they might see their home port again. Even more admiration for my grandmother who would get on with life at home with the same uncertainty - how many young people could or would cope with such a life style now?

The problem is that I have no date for this voyage but I assume that it was before 1926 when he gained his Master's ticket. I've tried Miramar with no success, can anyone suggest a good way forward? Thanks in advance for any help.

David


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello,
The Barque J T NORTH official number 87842 828 tons built by Russell and Co Port Glasgow in 1883
Her British registry was closed in 1913 when she was sold to Danish interests and renamed JOHAN sunk in 1916 by the German submarine U-79.A nice pic on this page
http://www.uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/3168.html

So we are looking for a voyage before 1913 Lloyds List may be of help
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/research-guides/lloyds/lloyds-list-indexes

or try a search of old newspapers.

Could you give us your mans full name date and place of birth, together with a resume of what you know of his seagoing career and where you obtained this information.
See also page 785
http://anmm.smedia.com.au/Olive/AM3/ANMM8/Default.htm?href=ANMM8/1911/01/01&pageno=3&view=do***ent


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## Hugh MacLean

Welcome David,
This I would imagine is known to you.

ATHELSTANE, tanker. United Molasses Co. 5571 tons. Built 1918. Bombed by Japanese aircraft and sunk in the Indian Ocean on 9th April 1942.

London Gazette 22 December 1942 - For services when the ship was bombed and sunk.

Moore, Henry - Captain - Commendation.
Johns, Joseph - Deck Topass - Commendation 

Regards
Hugh


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## dragnil

Thanks for these quick and helpful replies. I do have the London Gazette extract and, if you are interested, an account of the sinking can be seen at: http://www.hmshollyhock.co.uk/last_moments.htm

Thanks, Roger, for the data on the J T North and your questions have prompted me to look again at some of my grandfather's papers.

Henry Moore was born on 3 Jan 1887, I believe in Hull, and died on his birthday in 1987 which was a pretty good innings. 

I have his references from the masters of various ships on which he sailed between 1908 and 1920 and there is no gap between them for the voyage of the J T North, so it must have been prior to 1908 (and before his marriage in 1915, so disregard my comments on my grandmother).

I am guessing now, but it might well have been his first voyage and, if so, quite a baptism of fire. This thought triggered a distant recollection of my mother saying that HM was either a member, or eligible to be a member (I can't recall which), of the Cape Horners Association and I'll contact them to see if they have records which might help.

A final question from a mere aeronaut, is a Second Officer the same as a Second Mate, I have always assumed so but would like to be sure.


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## Roger Griffiths

His card CR 10 which record his ships with dates from late 1918 until June 1921. There is a copy on the pay to view site Find my Past. This confirms he sailed on ASIATIC o/n 124733 and EDITH CAVELL o/n 106429. The card also states he was onboard the Anglo Saxon Petrolium tanker ADNA o/n 142380 discharging in June 1921.

More importantly I think, The Card CR10 also has a photograph of HM albeit a mugshot cica 1918

Back to the original question.

*I may be wrong about this but*--------- For various reasons and to make the search easier. I believe the voyage in question took place between 1906 and 1907 to prove this you need to get hold of the logbook and crew agreement of J T NORTH o/n 87842 for 1907. This do***ent can be obtained from the National Archive. Your best bet would be to view it yourself.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C2479864
Second Mate = Second Officer

Roger


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## dragnil

Thank you, I'm in touch with Kew for the do***ent. Another guess but the attached photo looks, to me, like the formal portrait of a young man at the start of his career. Are there any clues in the uniform?


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello again,
Further research suggests that the voyage took place in 1905-1907.
The Sydney(NSW) Morning Herald of the 17th/Sept/1906 says J T NORTH arrived from New York with a general cargo on the 10th/Sept/1906 and sailed for Callao with a cargo of coal on the 12th Sept.
As she never returned to a UK port until sometime in 1907. Her 1907 logbooks and crew agreements should include details of most of the voyage in question.
Her 1905 logbook and crew agreements should be in the NMM Greenwich. She would not have a logbook and crew agreement for 1906

http://digital.slv.vic.gov.au/view/...adjacency=&divType=&usePid1=true&usePid2=true

J.T. NORTH – 1900-1908 
Code letters: HQVS Official number: 87842 
Master: Captain R. Allen 
Rigging: iron Barque; 1 deck, 2 tiers of beams; 1 cemented bulkhead 
Tonnage: 828 tons gross, 773 under deck and 793 net 
Dimensions: 196.4 feet long, 31.8 foot beam and holds 18.7 feet deep; Quarter Deck 36 feet 
Construction: 1883, Russell & Co. in Port Glasgow 
Owners: J. Stewart & Co. 
Port of registry: Liverpool 

Roger


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## dragnil

Thanks, Roger that really is super. This sort of research is so daunting for the beginner and I don't know where to start so I'm grateful for you taking an interest. Official Number is pretty obvious but HQVS doesn't come up in search engines, what does it stand for and when did the system of numbering ships start? Would it have been by Lloyds to keep track of what they were underwriting?

I am wandering around in circles in NMM Greenwich, should I be searching the Archive Catalogue? 

David


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## Roger Griffiths

David,
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_letters

If I were you I would wait to see what results you get from Kew before trying for her 1905 crew agreements and logbooks.
If you then feel it necessary to see the 1905 C/A's and L/B's you should be able to obtain them from here after registering in "Aeon" 
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/crew-lists-agreements-and-official-logs-request-form

regards
Roger


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## dragnil

I'm still awaiting an estimate from Kew, but in the meantime, have received the attached from the International Association of Cape Horners. This research is becoming compulsive but, as a novice, I'm happy to receive any ideas or pointers as to where I should look. Thanks again.

David


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## dragnil

Roger,
The copies have just arrived from Kew and it's good and bad. The C/As are there and are very interesting but there's no sign of a log. Is this a lost cause or should I be looking somewhere else? The C/A confirms that his previous vessel was the Ladas and that is the one on which he appears to have served as an apprentice. How long did apprenticeships last?
Thanks again for the help.
David


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello,
I am away from home at the minute will reply on return.

Roger


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## Roger Griffiths

dragnil said:


> Roger,
> The copies have just arrived from Kew and it's good and bad. The C/As are there and are very interesting but there's no sign of a log. Is this a lost cause or should I be looking somewhere else? The C/A confirms that his previous vessel was the Ladas and that is the one on which he appears to have served as an apprentice. How long did apprenticeships last?
> Thanks again for the help.
> David


Hello again,
Two reasons for no logbook. 1(the more likely) It has been lost or destroyed 2 TNA have failed to copy all of the piece.
I am at TNA next week sometime , will double check for you and also see if I can find details of his apprenticeship. problem is only 1 in 5 indentures survive.

Roger


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## dragnil

Hello Roger,

Thanks and I'll cross my fingers while you're at TNA. From the RGM site they suggest that the log may well be less informative than the C/As. I assumed that a ship's log would be a description of the navigation of the voyage but it seems not. The voyage after J T North was in the Lota and Bristol are looking into that for me.

Thanks again,

David


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello David,
There were no logbooks with the 1907 crew agreements of J T NORTH.
Mercantile Marine logbooks can be an interesting source of information on individual seamen. Misdemeanors, illness's etc. It depends who was writting the narrative pages and how fastidious they were. Unfortunately lots of logbooks have been lost or destroyed, as seems to be the case in this instance.
I did not have time to look for his apprenticeship records. Will endeavor to do so next time I am at the Archive.


regards
Roger


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## dragnil

Hello Roger,

I'm most grateful, thank you. A later phase of his life was on the tankers of the Athel Line shipping molasses to and fro. I have histories of the line and the United Molasses Co and have been in touch with the Athel Apprentices but have come to a stop. It's the years from 1921 to his retirement in 1947 - can you suggest where I should start?

Thanks again for all your help, I'd have been lost with out it.

David


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello David,
I am not 100% sure what you are asking. Do you wish to know what ships he sailed on as master 1921 to 1947 and where did he sail to? Or do you wish to look deeper than that via the vessels crew agreements and logbooks?
Do you have his masters certificate number?

Roger


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## dragnil

Hello Roger,
I'm sorry, I missed your message. Initially I'd like to build up a picture of the vessels he sailed on and when.
I have his Master's Certificate, issued on 22 Jan 45 because it's a copy of the original (lost, I presume) dated 27 Mar 20 and number 041974.
Is that sufficient, or would you like more?
I've had no joy from the Athel Apprentices but that's not surprising as they are all of a younger generation.
His apprenticeship seems to have been on the Ladas and after the JT North voyage I think he sailed on the Lota but I came to a dead end on that until I found that there was more than one Lota in 1909-10, so still working on that.

David


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## dragnil

A little more since my last. I now have a couple of ship's logs from Nat Archives for the Ladas.

1. The Ladas sailed from Hamburg on 15 May 1901 to WCSA (coincidentally to Lota port) and ended at Antwerp on 11 Mar 1902. My grandfater is listed as one of 3 apprentices one of whom was washed away and drowned.

2. Her next voyage was from Fowey on 26 Apr 1902 and this ended at S Shields on 14 Nov 1904. There is a crew list of 80+ mariners but I can't find any mention of apprentices except for the death of another (one a trip doesn't seem very good odds!).

3. Henry Moore sailed on the JT North on 14 Jun 1905 and his previous ship was listed in the CA as the Ladas; this raises a few questions:

a. Is it safe to assume H Moore was on Ladas (2)?
b. Was an apprenticeship carried out on the same ship and how long would it last?
c. Was any work or training given to apprentices while on shore (the six months between Ladas (2) and JT North)?

Thanks as always for any suggestions or guidance.

David


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