# the diesel engine



## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

the media and the papers are giving the diesel engine a good kicking for or against pollution: How say you? does the marine dieesl have to proceed up and down the Grand union canal. the channel and North sea, or even the high seas, at a slower speed than at present? Do we need an accelerator/gearbox and other gizzmo's stuck up the funnel to ensure we have a clean exhaust as per the environmentalists, or do we still dream of those majestic beasts, such as the sulzer RD Class/doxfords/H&W B&W Opposed pistons, and that scandanavian opposed piston type from Gothenberg?/ or those medium speed V's Pielsticks and sulzers as an engineering wonder or workhorse.
Are we back to canvas and wind? which the current media appear to be full off(Applause)


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

For the Grand Union you could buy a horse and a bit of rope and you're good to go.
An added advantage is the mushrooms you could grow in the garage.


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## uisdean mor (Sep 4, 2008)

david freeman said:


> the media and the papers are giving the diesel engine a good kicking for or against pollution: How say you? does the marine dieesl have to proceed up and down the Grand union canal. the channel and North sea, or even the high seas, at a slower speed than at present? Do we need an accelerator/gearbox and other gizzmo's stuck up the funnel to ensure we have a clean exhaust as per the environmentalists, or do we still dream of those majestic beasts, such as the sulzer RD Class/doxfords/H&W B&W Opposed pistons, and that scandanavian opposed piston type from Gothenberg?/ or those medium speed V's Pielsticks and sulzers as an engineering wonder or workhorse.
> Are we back to canvas and wind? which the current media appear to be full off(Applause)


I have not waded further than a bit of a paddle for many years - however I do believe there are current environmental restrictions on use of heavy oil alongside or in a canal. This recently came to light during the uproar re the ship to ship transfer option for Port of Cromarty. It may be locational but from reading the planning application I do believe it to be universal.


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

ps the swedishish opposed piston diesel engine was a Gotoverken


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

In Europe, the safety and clean air activists have already achieved air pollution controls on ship emissions in various ports. EMSA (the European equivalent of the UK's MSA) is on the case.

http://www.emsa.europa.eu/main/air-pollution.html

The sort of pressure they are under can be seen here

https://www.transportenvironment.org/what-we-do/shipping/air-pollution-ships


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

david freeman said:


> ps the swedishish opposed piston diesel engine was a Gotoverken


Gotaverken was not an o/p but was a 2 stroke with exhaust valve.driven off the crankshaft
(nobody loves a smartarse,but every one likes to be one)(Thumb)


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Indeed with pull rods and scavenge pumps. Wasn't it that their timing was not shifted (as with camshaft operated exhaust valves) that we always got the scavenge temperature based fire alarms 'up' when going astern for any length of time?


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Scrubbers have been in use for many years shoreside and it would appear that is the way it is going to be on the marine side unless you are building a new vessel. The move against pollution is not new as the Steam lads will be aware when each Stokehold had a 'Smoke Chart' which give the Fireman so many minutes at a certain density of smoke.


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## uisdean mor (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks Ron @ #5 . These are the legislative issues I referred to re the Port of Cromarty application.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Engine Serang said:


> For the Grand Union you could buy a horse and a bit of rope and you're good to go.
> An added advantage is the mushrooms you could grow in the garage.


Isn't the byproduct of grass and an animals digestive system an ozone depleting gas.
What ever system we use some tree hugger will,always find a downside. I don't suppose all these tree huggers walk to work and have homes without electricity.

Its all a lot of nonsense.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

chadburn said:


> Scrubbers have been in use for many years shoreside and it would appear that is the way it is going to be on the marine side unless you are building a new vessel. The move against pollution is not new as the Steam lads will be aware when each Stokehold had a 'Smoke Chart' which give the Fireman so many minutes at a certain density of smoke.



I remember reading a few years ago in the MER that ships had to be fitted with these scrubbers (or DPF's in auto parlance) and they would inject Urea into them to clean them up. Much the same as some diesel cars now and most HGV's.
I think the other option was to change over to Ultra low suphur diesel when entering the channel, this meant you had to have two lots of cylinder oil and change that over as well due to the alkaline content.
If they are worried about the clean exhausts now, how come from the time of the Industrial Revolution to present day the ozone layer has not disapeared with all the dark satanic mills belching out all the nasties then plus all the steam ships making smoke.

The greens reckon there are 50 people a day dying because of dirsel pollution.
Now does anybody on this forum know of anybody?
I would say it is scaremongering tactics to keep certain people in jobs.
I am sure there are more people dying from self inflicted causes like obesity, drinking, smoking than anything diesel fumes are doing to them.

I was in my car dealership recently when they were doing a forced regen on a dpf, the fumes were coming into the showroom and office space no doubt it was much worse in the garage. Obviously they did not carry out a risk assessment or attach an exhaust extractor which then dilutes it well above ground level with fresh air. This process is quite a common occurance these days, so what effect is that having on the garage staff.
What normally happens they tweak the mapping and the engine runs at say 2krpm and they inject diesel during the exhaust to raise the exh temp to burn off the carbon. Have you ever heard of anything so environmentaly unfriendly.

Anybody who has been to New Zealand on the meat run in the 1970's probably came across scrubbers first night they docked, then they drifted down the crew bar for the rest of the coast.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

In answer to your question regarding dying from diesel exhaust fumes, I have never owned a diesel powered car and I have had quite a few cars over the years.
The reason why was the loss of a friend due to carbon deposits on his lungs, he was a Harbour Master and his launch was his floating office, when the twin screw launch was built her diesels exhausted P&S which was not uncommon in those days the RN had numerous small vessels built that way.
Unfortunately the exhaust's exited the Hull not far below his office door which meant that if his office door was on the latch on a warm day (no air con) and the vessel was going alongside a vessel or Jetty the exhaust fumes bounced off either and drifted back into his office.
After the inquest which blamed the poor design of the Craft the exhaust's were piped up through the upper deck American truck style.


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## D1566 (Sep 7, 2009)

Varley said:


> Indeed with pull rods and scavenge pumps. Wasn't it that their timing was not shifted (as with camshaft operated exhaust valves) that we always got the scavenge temperature based fire alarms 'up' when going astern for any length of time?


Its a long time since I sailed on them and cannot remember the ones I worked with having scavenge pumps. Do I remember correctly that the valves were actuated by pull rods off the crank, spring return?


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I remember the pumps were on PM ('DATASHIP'). Usual situation was that this was well premature with them as clean as a whistle (2 per cylinder?).

I was once on stage to try and adjust the pull rod to exhaust valve yoke clearance which was done with the engine at running temperature (and running, albeit at low revs). I am sure Rab Houston sold tickets to watch me try from the comfort of the first row of the top plates. (Norvegia Team, first trip leckie, never sailed on a motor ship before, Houston first trip Chief, great fun).

See


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## Tony Morris (Oct 7, 2006)

Ropners Bridgepool, had one of these Gotaverkens.


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## D1566 (Sep 7, 2009)

My experience of Gotaverkens was on this;
http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=1326627


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Ron Stringer said:


> In Europe, the safety and clean air activists have already achieved air pollution controls on ship emissions in various ports. EMSA (the European equivalent of the UK's MSA) is on the case.
> 
> http://www.emsa.europa.eu/main/air-pollution.html
> 
> ...


Shore side power, hmm, go idea, no genny logs to take, but how many ports have sufficient power for a cruise ship or a reefer ship , are the ships going to be fitted with compatible shore power plugs/sockets. What about shifting ship?
Low sulphur fuels, expensive, doesn't sulphor provide lubrication in the fuel system like lead used to,do in petrol.
Water injection sounds a good idea as long as the vap is working.
Are low sulphur fuels readilly available?
What happens to all the excess high sulphur fuels?
By the time crude oil gets to the ships, there is not much goodness left in it, in fact they have added the catlytic fines like vanadium to mess up the engine.
Heavy fuels are getting to the point that they are heavier than water and have a high viscosity, greater than the 380 cst or 3500 redwood no1.
Glad I am retired and left the sea many years ago.


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

I have come up with an idea to solve all this emission problems but I can not find a spring small enough or ex.Doxford engineers to whined the key(Cuckoo)thats why the Swiss engines were the best but yet again I've never been on a ship driven by a sewing machine.(==D)


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

A.D.FROST said:


> I have come up with an idea to solve all this emission problems but I can not find a spring small enough or ex.Doxford engineers to whined the key(Cuckoo)thats why the Swiss engines were the best but yet again I've never been on a ship driven by a sewing machine.(==D)


It would have to be a treadle sewing machine. If you had Dutch and Chinese crew, they like riding bikes, so put a bunch of bike pedals all connected up to a gear box, have a whip round and off we go. All those ******** in this country we can use them as pedlars as well and as soon as they get to the Gulf let them ashore. Then you have all those teletubbies that go on cruise ships, put them on watches peddling, it would do wonders for the NHS fitness and BMI figures.
You would not need to install gyms on cruise ships and the gm of the ship would lower each day as well. Cut back on the feeding rate as well as they would be too tired to eat cream cakes and midnight feasts.
The important thing is having the whip round connected to the ER telegraph.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

The future is Gas in its various forms, a VTE with Gas fired boilers?


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

They have gas carriers with diesel engines running on boil off gas now.
If they went to gas I suppose your tickets would need the Corgi endorsement, or what ever it is called now.
Then the catering department would want gas hobs and ovens, and the old man would have a gas fire in his cabin.

Though can you imagine with the sorts of crews they carry now and the bamboo chiefs, ships would be blowing up.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

It was just a gas-----pipe dream.(*))


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## Dartskipper (Jan 16, 2015)

South West Water had gas fuelled engines working in their pumping stations back in the 1990's. A common problem was lack of upper cylinder lubrication causing excessive wear. They might have been Rolls Royce diesels.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Cars fuelled by LPG are widely used in several countries but for some reason they have not been widely adopted in the UK. I am not sure if they offer significantly fewer pollutants than petrol-powered engines but they will surely be an improvement on diesel in that respect.


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

I read recently about (what seemed like science fiction) plans to build a huge renewable infrastructure in Germany wherein vast numbers of renewable projects would be built, to far exceed the normal energy requirement of the country. Then the surplus energy would be used in purpose built plants to produce hydrogen, (presumably from electrolysis, but the article didn't give details) which in turn would be used to provide power as necessary for the quiet times renewable-wise and for combustion engines required for transport.

I can't deny it sounded a bit pipe-dreamish, but I was impressed that someone somewhere was thinking outside the box of fossil fuels.

(Smoke)


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

BobClay said:


> I read recently about (what seemed like science fiction) plans to build a huge renewable infrastructure in Germany wherein vast numbers of renewable projects would be built, to far exceed the normal energy requirement of the country. Then the surplus energy would be used in purpose built plants to produce hydrogen, (presumably from electrolysis, but the article didn't give details) which in turn would be used to provide power as necessary for the quiet times renewable-wise and for combustion engines required for transport.
> 
> I can't deny it sounded a bit pipe-dreamish, but I was impressed that someone somewhere was thinking outside the box of fossil fuels.
> 
> (Smoke)


Sounds a bit like perpetual motion or getting 'out for nout'.
Though if anybody can do it the Germans can. The UK could never as we dont have the young engineers, they are all media and political science graduates here.


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## BobClay (Dec 14, 2007)

Well I'm not sure out for nout applies. To produce hydrogen requires a large amount of energy, larger I think than you would get back from using the hydrogen. It's just a way of changing the format of the energy supply so you can use it differently. It doesn't matter about the efficiency so much if the original supply is bountiful and clean anyway.

Of course this assumes the long term policy is about clean energy and not so much profit. That's where I could see it stumbling.


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## Duncan112 (Dec 28, 2006)

Iceland has started producing Hydrogen from renewable energy - IIRC there was a scheme to generate it from geothermal electricity and export to the UK - a quick Google reveals nothing though. 

This http://www.enviromission.com.au/irm/content/video/Beyond_2000_x264.html is, for my money one of the most practical renewable schemes, build in Africa, use the area under the glass/plastic collector for growing food - moisture would collect on the underside of the plastic for watering, reducing losses export the hydrogen... simples


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

One idea is that filling stations would use solar energy/wind-generated electricity to produce hydrogen locally using fuel cells and store it on the spot. That would avoid the need to truck the stuff around the country in delivery tankers.

There are a small number of filling stations serving hydrogen to cars around the M25 which is not too tempting an option for those of us who try to avoid that road whenever possible.


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