# Snr 2nd, snr 3rd etc



## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

I started my sea career just after the snr & jnr ranks were in common usage.
Perhaps somebody would like to explain the difference between a Snr 2nd Eng and a Jnr 2nd Eng and the same with the 3rd Eng.

I sailed on a couple of twin screw ships and we had the 3rd, 4th, and fiver as senior watchkeepers with a j/eng each to keep them company plus a jnr on day work and standbys. The jnrs often being a time served fitters joining the company, so would be quite green to ships.
The 2nd Eng was on day work, with a couple of mechanics (classed as P.O.'s),
A donkey/greaser on each watch for topping up oil and looking after boiler water level. These being motorships with exh gas and an oil fired boiler.
Single screw dispensed with the jnrs on watch and only have one jnr or eng cadet on day work.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Presumably the Snr 2nd is the same as the Staff Chief on a cruise ship, in other wordsthe day work 2nd and runs the job, while the Chief does fuel figures and keeps the whisky optic in working order.
Did a J2 have a 2nds cert, but a case of dead mens shoes.
Was on a ship were there were three 2nds tickets all waiting for the ink to dry and the Chief had just got his Motor endorsement. The 4th had his Part A 2nds, it ws only the poor cadet with nothing.
So if anybody could list the general duties of these Snr & Jnr positions, just so I can put them in perspective of modern day ships.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Union Castle:
Chief Engineer. Chief Engineer.
1st Engineer. Daywork.
Senior 2nd. In charge of 4-8 and general ran engine-room.
Inter 2nd. In charge 12-4.
Senior Junior 2nd In charge 8-23.

Then another junior 2nd doubling up on watches.
Senior 3rd, inter 3rd, junior 3rd ditto.
Senior 4th, inter 4th,junior 4th, ditto.
Two juniors.

3 refrigeration engineers.

4 or 5 electrical officers

In _Good Hope Castle_ & _Southampton Castle_
Chief Engineer, 1st Engineer, Senior 2nd, junior 2nd, another junior 2nd. No 3rds, no 4ths, 3 juniors, 2 cadets.

Bob


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Thanks Bob.
Assume these ships were passenger ships and required a 2nds cert on each watch and perhaps steamers that had a 2nd in charge of the boiler room as well as a 2nd on the mains and auxies.
Presumably the 1st Eng was in line for a Chiefs job when one came up and would also do a bit of smoozing with the passengers as he would have clean hands and nails.

As these were probably dc the leckies had their work cut out on winches (homeward bound) and fridge gear ( outward bound from UK) and the odd one lamping up ,hotel services and ER bits and pieces. Yearly meggar readings.
I was with BSL reefers but on the mains so understand the leckies and frosties duties. 
Before my time with BSL, the day work jnr would be 3rd fridge when there was a cargo or looking after the fridge on nights whilst loading.
Later on when he became 4th Eng would do a spell as 2nd fridge (pay scales being the same), once he got his 2nds or Chiefs would do time as Chief Freezer, such that when he became Chief Eng, he knew all about the fridge department and cargo.
Later on with one freezer on board who could have joined as a freezer from a shore apprenticeship in refrigeration or perhaps a 3rd engineer wanting a change and promotion.
Two things I would have liked to have done was steam time ( dead mens shoes, and only the blue eyed boys) for an endorsement and time in the fridge flat. 
Though I did end up surveying steam boilers and various pressure vessels ashore and overseeing repairs as a boiler surveyor for an insurance company on the strength of a Class One Motor.


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## R58484956 (Apr 19, 2004)

On all the ships I sailed on the the 2nd and junior 2nds all had chiefs tickets plus one of the bright boys had an extra chiefs.


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## ART6 (Sep 14, 2010)

In my time at sea the senior second engineer was the executive head of the engine room and everything else mechanical or metal! He was directly responsible to the chief engineer. His didn't keep watches, and he ate at the captain's table rather than with the proles! The junior second engineer was the senior watch keeper, answering to the senior second for the efficient operation of every watch. He ran the four-to-eight watch and he ate with the proles. 

Then the third engineer who's responsibilities were the boilers, feed water, and fuel oil on the twelve-to-four watch, followed by the fourth engineer responsible for lube-oil systems, salt water evaporators, and anything else the senior second thought of. The "four-oh" was the most junior watch keeper with his own watch -- the eight-to-twelve.

A "watch-keeping engineer" was defined as he who was in charge of his own watch, originally assisted by a junior engineer (a fifth engineer or "fiver"), a donkeyman on the boilers, and a couple of greasers in the engine room. The "fivers" would normally be apprentice-trained refugees from the shipyards or cadets who had finished their training. If they were lucky, and if they stayed on the right side of the senior second and the chief, they might get promotion to four-oh in two or three years.

In those days we always referred to each other by rank rather than by name, so both second engineers were called "Sec", while the third engineers were "Three-oh" and the fourth engineers "Four-Oh". Electricians, when on the odd times when we had them, were always "Lecky."

There used to be a protocol that was always recognised: if, in anything other than an emergency, the chief engineer wished to do a tour of the engine room, he would contact the senior second and say that he intended to go below. If he found anything he didn't like he would take it up with the senior second, who would then issue field days (at least four hours of maintenance work after watch and often longer) until the chief was satisfied.

Then there were the odd occasions when the engineer's alarm was sounded in the engineer's accommodation. That occurred when something had happened that was outside of the control of the watch, and then it was a mad rush to climb out of one's pit, grab a torch and a wheelkey, and go down the engine room ladders on one's hands on the railings without ever touching a foot on the steps.It was not unusual in such cases to find engineers running around in their underwear or even bollock naked, with a torch in one hand and a wheelkey in the other (I can avow though bitter experience that going down the ladders on one's hands with a wheelkey and a torch stuffed into one's underpants was not an experience to be repeated often). 

Then the chief engineer would take command of the main turbine throttles, while the senior second would be going around like blue a***d fly finding out WTF had happened and how to deal with it. And in all such times, given the noise of the machinery, everyone relied upon sign language for which there was an accepted code. So two hands raised slowly in the direction of the control flat told the chief engineer to gently open the ahead throttle valve. Two raised up or down fast meant either open the bast**rd quick or shut it again. A finger pointed at the nearest junior engineer by the senior second meant if you haven't got your ar*e into gear in the next five seconds you will be on field days for life!

In time, of course, the bean counters rose to ascendancy, and every tiny cost saving was of benefit to the bottom line. No more fivers, to be replaced with "mechanics" of petty-officer rank but with only three months of training. No more engine room crew because they had all become "multipurpose", which meant that all five of them that were left were expected to moor the ship, clean the decks, assist the engineers in maintenance, and be on deck for cargo discharge. I left the service then, mainly because I had been instructed to run a training programme for multipurpose crews, and I wouldn't do it.

It was at about that time that I added bean counters to my hate list along with politicians and lawyers, and I have yet to be proven wrong! (Cloud)


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

On Rangitane , a 24000 ton, 450 passenger / refrigerated cargo ship on the UK-NZ route there were 11 main engine engineers, 2 fridge engineers and 4 electricians.
The chief engineer did not keep a watch, the 2nd engineer kept the 4-8 watch and had the the 5th and 8th engineers as juniors
The 3rd engineer kept the 12-4 watches assisted by the 6th and 9th
The 4th engineer kept the 8-12 watches assisted by the 7th and 10th
The 11th engineer designated the 'Junior' served as a fourth man on the second's watch when no freezer cargo was being carried and became the 3rd freezer on the 12-4 when carrying frozen goods.

The chief fridge engineer manned the 4-8 and the 2nd freezer the 8-12 .
The chief electrician was a day worker while the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th leckies did the 4-8, 8-12, and 12-4 respectively.

The chief, second, third and fourth engineers, the chief freezer and the chief leckie were allotted tables in the passengers dining salon while the rest of us dined in the engineers mess.

All engineering staff were allowed on the passenger decks between watches but had to be off the deck two hours before starting a watch, this rule being relaxed to one hour on special nights such as the Ball and Dinner Adieu occasions.
Appropriate uniforms were worn at all times on deck including dickie suits after 6 pm.
Junior mates and radio operators frequented the engineers smoke room for after watch and other social occasions because they could not play up in their near bridge quarters and because we had all the girls.

A long time ago but I think that the above is right.

All together a very pleasantly regulated society.

Bob


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Field days is something we didn't really experience in BSL as the 2nd, jnr & mechanics took care of most things. The mechanics mainly overhauled generators and the laborious job of grinding valves in, we normally had a spare engine set plus 2.
Wheel key,only saw them on the older ships, on the newer ships there might be the odd one but you certainly didn't carry one. Perhaps that is a steam thing with hot handwheels.
As 2nd I always had the jnr or cadet trace pipe lines and blather a bit copperslip on the valve spindles as he was going round.
Only been on a couple of ships that had a few passengers . First ship they used our saloon and we invited them into th bar for a cocktail party 2nd night. After that the two single girls used to be in every night till 4am sometimes.

The other ship carried more and they had a passenger saloon in which only 2nd and chief were allowed to attend. But the 2nd never ate in any saloon, but asked for a main course put in the hotpress and would eat in his cabin.

Thanks for the explanations. Seems different companies had different systems.
But who would want to be at sea now? Run by beancounters more so.


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

More rules,
We were only allowed to drink in the passenger lounge bar, there we met the girls, over 100 single Kiwi lasses going on their great big O E while the boys stayed home to finish training or to work hard to by that plot of land for a first house.
At first, we swashbuckling mariners were willing to front up and shout the drinks but after a day or two we were warned of the climbing mess bill.
Afternoon larger and limes were cheap, if not too many, and we soon found the issued Barclays beer in the Brasso style tin and drank in the engineers smoke room a safer far cheaper bet.
A great life but every junior ending the round voyage in London swore that they were opting for a cargo ship next trip. Thirty seven pounds ten / month did not allow the life of Riley.

Bob


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## R58484956 (Apr 19, 2004)

The P&O welcomed that your wine account was over the top at the end of the trip, it meant you went back for another trip, less work for the office trying to find a replacement.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

spongebob said:


> More rules,
> We were only allowed to drink in the passenger lounge bar, there we met the girls, over 100 single Kiwi lasses going on their great big O E while the boys stayed home to finish training or to work hard to by that plot of land for a first house.
> At first, we swashbuckling mariners were willing to front up and shout the drinks but after a day or two we were warned of the climbing mess bill.
> Afternoon larger and limes were cheap, if not too many, and we soon found the issued Barclays beer in the Brasso style tin and drank in the engineers smoke room a safer far cheaper bet.
> ...


Yes those Kiwi girls could certainly drink. As soon as the phone was connected up on the ship (reefer) after coming in from deep sea it would be ringing, with a girl on the end asking if there was a party on the Star Boat( they obviously knew all the extensons to the berths). These were normaly the heavy gang, force draught jobs, but sometimes a few decent girls came along with them. When the next ship came in they were accross there and we could invite the 'nice girls' down.
One time when we were pulling a unit on a B&W flying bedstead,the 3rd had a ************ filling in the liner gauging sheet ad he miked it up.

I have been told that if you had white crew, the girls would be up to turn them to and give them hand on the staging painting and soogeing, despite the heavy night previous.
We used to stash cases of spririts in cofferdams, waterside of auxy boilers, just to get us round the coast, which could be a month, thats a lot of partying.
Never experienced a rummage squad in Kiwi, but then drug smuggling was never an issue in those days.


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## norm.h (Dec 8, 2009)

Just noticed this thread....brought back a few memories I can tell you. 

The following was the set-up on the first Australia Star when i was on her 1955 to 57. 

Fifteen engineers staffed the engine room department, headed by the Chief Engineer, who had overall responsibility for all things mechanical and electrical. 
The day to day running of the engine room was the responsibility of the Senior Second, and the watchkeepers were the Junior Second and the Senior and Junior Thirds. All these engineers held Board of Trade Certificates of Competency, and were assisted by three of the four Assistant (Junior) Engineers. 

The Senior and Junior Fourth Engineers worked day work, maintaining and repairing plant. 
Electrical equipment was the responsibility of the Chief and Second Electricians, and the refrigeration plant was run by the Chief and Second Refrigeration Engineers. The last Junior Engineer worked either with the Fourths or Refrigeration Engineers.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Thanks Norm H.


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## noelmavisk (Oct 14, 2012)

Memory not that good but when I was an engineer with Royal Mail Lines, I served on the 'Deseado' for 2 years, 1955-1957. Joined her as 4th engineer then promoted to 2nd Fridge engineer, and promoted to junior 3rd engineer.
The 'Deseado' was a refrigerated twin-screw diesel ship and carried 15 engineers.
Chief Engineer.

4 -8. Senior 2nd, Junior 3rd, 2 Junior engineers outward bound(homeward bound one Junior became 3rd Fridge engineer.

12 - 4. Junior 2nd, Senior 5th, Junior engineer.

8 - 12. Senior 3rd, 4th, Junior engineer.

Chief Fridge, 2nd Fridge, daytime outward bound. Homeward bound became watch-keepers joined by one Junior as 3rd watch-keeper stuck with the 12 - 4.

Chief Electrician & 2nd Electrician, day-workers on call 24/7.

Senior 2nd & Junior 2nd would have tickets, occasionally so would the Senior 3rd.
Sometimes the Senior 2nd would have his Chief's ticket.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Thanks Noel.
It seems listening to stories of bygone days that with BSL the 2nd Fridge was equivalent to 4/E rank and the Chief Fridge if not a time served Fridge Engineer was often a 2/E or certified 3/E awaiting promotion but putting in some time running the fridge so he knew what was going on when he became C/E.

It appeared that a lot of the fridge machines were directly driven by Brush diesels, so the 4th and 2nd Fridge might O/h one of those outward bound.
On earlier ships they were steam driven and shared the condenser with the steam steering gear, so the fridged department kept an eye on the steering gear.

In the 70's and 80's mains engineers never got any experience of refrigeration, so on promotion to C/E you might end up running the Fridge plant as the bean counters decided to remove the Chief Freezer, though I think this was mainly on the fridge box boats.
I was 2nd on a couple of non fridge ships that only had domestics & ac luckily they ran ok as didn't I have a clue of its black art.
One might have done alsorts of calculations in 2nd & Chiefs Thermo, but that was quite unrelated if you had a ac/fridge problem or how to gas it up.


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## noelmavisk (Oct 14, 2012)

noelmavisk said:


> Memory not that good but when I was an engineer with Royal Mail Lines, I served on the 'Deseado' for 2 years, 1955-1957. Joined her as 4th engineer then promoted to 2nd Fridge engineer, and promoted to junior 3rd engineer.
> The 'Deseado' was a refrigerated twin-screw diesel ship and carried 15 engineers.
> Chief Engineer.
> 
> ...


_Should have mentioned that the Chief & 2nd Fridge were on days outward bound because we were on the meat run to Argentina and sailed empty of any cargo, the crew cleaning the holds to be ready to lade the meat._


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## GWB (Jul 11, 2007)

On the Southern Cross 
Chief and Staff Chief were on day work, all Electricians on Day work
Sen2nd,Sen 3rd. 5th and 6th, junior
Int med2nd 3rd, 5th, 6th,junior 12-4
Jnr 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, Junior 8-12
Ist Frig 8-12, 2 frig 4-8 3 frig 12-4
3Rd was in Generator room as there was 6 generators one may be having maintenance done 
5th in Stokehold, 6th main pates, junior pumping bilges checkin Sewage pumps
moving fuel oil under 2nd directions,cleaning purifiers.
Also on each watch was Fireman,Donkey man, Greaser, Generator Greaser, Frig Greaser.


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

Wow!
Them's more inguneers than whats now sailing under the British Flag.


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