# Asbestos related disease & compensation



## Steve Hodges

Sorry to introduce a sombre note into this forum, but maybe some of you know the answers to some questions. During my time at sea , a lot in 50's and 60's built steamers, I know I got a lot of exposure to airborne asbestos from pipe insulation - sometimes water hammer when warming through pipes would result in snowstorms of the stuff. I'm now in my sixties and pretty healthy, but I know I have a greater than average chance of contracting mesothelioma, and that if I do I will probably get less than a year to sort things out, so I figure that the time to make enquiries is now. My questions are-
- What is the track record for marine engineers making asbestos related compensation claims against their former employers ( specifically UK flag)?
- What are the implications of subsequent exposure to asbestos in shoreside industry when making any such claim for exposure at sea?
- Is there any assistance available from the successors of my union, the MNAOA?
Any experiences of the above would be gratefully received, by personal message if preferred.


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## spongebob

Steve, people exposed to the asbestos laden atmospheres of steam ship engine rooms and the like in those years gone by faced a relatively high risk as I did while serving my apprenticeship at a naval dockyard but it is not necessarily a death sentence as the extent of contamination can vary considerably.
I understand that the most vulnerable were those working a laggers and cladders in the insulation industry where constant day by day exposure over long periods almost guaranteed contamination of the lungs.
This was brought home to me over my years in the boiler industry with Babcock and Wilcox where I knew several men in that trade that met their fate.
My time with Babcock was mostly desk bound and the problem was well flagged by them so precautions were taken on construction sites but never the less I did not miss the bullet as as late as 40 years after the exposure at the dockyard a routine chest ex ray produced a diagnosis of asbestosis .
A trying time especially as on being placed on the NZ Government's asbestos register I received a proposal from a class action lawyer to sue the Government for 300000-00 dollars compensation on my behalf and for 100000 on behalf of my partner. 
My doctor then organised a more definite probe in the form of a CT scan and an MRI scan which saw the diagnosis somewhat diluted to asbestos related plaques on my lungs, a condition that has not changed in anyway over the last 22 years . My only defect is a lowered lung capacity to 69 % at the last test which means I puff a bit with exertion but at 80 years of age I think that I am allowed to?
I have kept aware of this subject and in general most of us that have been caught out suffer from the less invasive plaques.
After the plaque diagnosis the class action obtained a reduced settlement on my behalf of 25000 dollars, discounted from 30000 dollars after me admitting to being a one time smoker.
I know nothing of the compensation rules or laws in the UK but my suggestion would be to have a high resolution scan of the MRI or CT type to determine your condition and I am sure that your mind will be put to rest.

Bob


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## chadburn

I have plural plaque due to working and sailing on steam jobs both RN and MN, I was interested to read that Spongebob had received compensation for the same condition as no such compensation exists in GB due to the Insurance Company lobby/pressure on the Government. The attitude by the Insurance Companies in GB seems to be when it comes claims concerning Asbestosis is to fight the claimant all the way until he passes away which reduces the total claim to paying a reduced amount to a relative if applicable.
You will need proof of your time on the vessels you have served on along with statements from your fellow Crew Members that such conditions existed on board.


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## Steve Hodges

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen.
Chadburn's comments on the UK insurance companies reinforce the impression that I have, which is why I would like to ac***ulate as much information as possible while I am healthy, simply as a precautionary measure. I wouldn't want to give the impression that I am worrying myself silly about it, I would just like to be better prepared if I get unlucky. I'm aware that it is largely a matter of chance as far as mesothelioma is concerned, and as yet the mechanism which triggers formation of a tumour from microscopic particles embedded in the lung tissue remains unknown. Having said that, in recent years I had a friend, a research scientist, die from mesothelioma who had far less exposure to asbestos than me, and it does tend to prey on the mind.


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## tiachapman

*Asbestos*

SHIPs were full of it


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## Basil

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/asbestos-victims-to-get-123000-in-compensation



> Victims of the fatal asbestos-induced cancer mesothelioma who can’t trace a liable employer or an employers’ liability insurer will soon be able to apply for compensation packages worth an average of £123,000


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## cueball44

Pleural Plaques are benign, which means they are not cancerous. Furthermore, they cannot become cancerous over time.


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## chadburn

cueball44 said:


> Pleural Plaques are benign, which means they are not cancerous. Furthermore, they cannot become cancerous over time.


They are however an indication, interesting that Spongebob has been paid out on plural plaques.
The Insurance Companies stance is that all claims are fraudulent and it's up to you to provide the evidence that the claim is legitimate. If you are a member of a Union the Union will put you in touch with their friendly Solicitors for which the Union is paid £500 for each member recommended. The 'Union' Solicitors who specialise in such claims have a large portfolio of claims and can cross check with other cases and evidence gleaned from other sources as to the how the claim will stand up if it is to be pursued. Solicitors who are not Union linked will not have access to the same Bank of information and will advertise in appropriate publications for others who worked/sailed in the same environment as the claimant in the hope that others will write in and confirm what was the situation. As Basil has indicated there are changes in appropriate cases.


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## ninabaker

*Clydeside Action on Asbestos *are the experts in this. Their lawyers have had more success than most. I dont think they mind if you are not in Scotland.

They are in my council ward so I see them quite often.

nina


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## twogrumpy

Interesting about the pleural plaques, plenty of asbestos related problems around my way in Portsmouth.

There was an item on the local news, and as I recall a sufferer was complaining that whatever compensation scheme he was trying to claim from would not pay out as he only had plaques and so was not entitled.
This would slot in with what cueball said that they are not cancerous, which can only be a touch of good news on a worrying subject.

Well done on raising the subject Steve, 4 years in a naval dockyard and 18 with BP, it does tend to concern me.


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## omcgarry

Now after my time spent in the engine room , I suffer from repeated chest infections and irritable airways , with no redress to anybody as most of the Shipping Co.'s have ceased, at the moment I am passing thro the system of a lot of medical tests as Mr Asbestos is in the frame along with various other suspects lurking a board ships etc where health and safety was paid no regard , when ear muffs were issued the old Chiefs forbid us to use them and if you questioned this you could be guaranteed practically every crap job for the trip ,


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## Keltic Star

I wasn't in the engine room but carried asbestos in bales on the return run from eastern Canada to UK. Junior Mates and Cadets in the holds on cargo watch or as tally clerks. We also Carried uranium in drums that often bust with rough handling.

So far, no problems, touch wood.


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## Duncan112

Interesting article in today's Daily Telegraphhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/11061877/Asbestos-the-killer-that-still-surrounds-us.html


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## twogrumpy

You beat me to it Duncan, was just going to post that.

Yes, interesting though not much new to say for those of us who have had been concerned about it for many years.


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## twogrumpy

Keltic Star said:


> So far, no problems, touch wood.


Fingers crossed for many of us I guess.


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## Ron Stringer

I recently wanted to install recessed lights in the kitchen ceiling. Rather than put up with my wife's complaints about me being in the way while she wanted to cook, I contacted a local electrician to do the job for me. (My wife always accepts that tradesmen will require undisturbed access whilst doing work on the property - she never offers me the same privileges).

He (and two other electricians that I subsequently contacted) refused to do the work because the ceiling - as with all the ceilings in the house) has been artexed at some time prior to our arrival 20 years ago. Apparently all Artex prior to about 1990 may contain an amount of asbestos. Drilling the holes for the lights would release dust that might contain asbestos and the subsequent risk was not acceptable to the electricians or their insurers. 

I had never heard of this and, in the 1960s, during the refurbishment of a very old house my wife and I artexed several badly cracked and crumbling lath-and-plaster ceilings. So far we have suffered no ill effects.

So I put up with the complaints from my wife and did the job myself. I then got a plasterer to skim the ceiling with plaster to cover up the places where I had to cut holes for access to the wiring. (By the way, I had the usual moans that I was in the way during the couple of hours that it took me to cut the hole and put in the wiring - the plasterer had none _and _was offered frequent cups of tea, even though he was there for two half-days).

It is now the only ceiling in the house that does not appear to be artexed, so if I ever needed any further work in there, I should be able to get an electrician without a problem!


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## cueball44

Before having our central heating system (new radiators & boiler) and kitchen units upgraded, we had to wait for an Asbestos test team to give the properties the all clear before any work could commence.


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## twogrumpy

Had the Artex/asbestos test and removal thing while we were looking out for the elderly man across the road, moved him out to a hotel and so on, at 70+ not sure a bit of asbestos if there actually was any, was going to bother him much.

Some are of the opinion, I could not possibly comment, that much of the asbestos test and removal business is a scam set up by those firms along with the insurance companies.JSL.


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## Duncan112

Agree entirely about the asbestos removal business being, in certain cir***stances, a scam, this site is well worth a read http://asbestoswatchblog.blogspot.co.uk/ 
I would not wish to deminish the tragedy of those suffering from asbestosis and related diseases but there is a deal of money being made on various bandwagons.

Speaking to a few demolition contractors though, it would appear that asbestos continued to be used in the construction industry well past the date it should have stopped as unscrupulous builders used up "Old stock", its illegality is compounded by the fact that, being illegal there was no record kept of where it was used in the constructions.


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## chadburn

The new danger material is Carbon Fibre, like Asbestos can cause serious problems if interfered with.


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## twogrumpy

Much the same has been said about fibreglass, both a time bomb for the future.


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## Varley

I thought the inference was that any 'long' particle of similar size to asbestos was suspect. I remember seeing (in the 90's) at the museum in Chicutimi the ore - lots and lots of crystals visible on the surface and the exhibits out in the open - 5 dollars entrance - the only bad bargain I made in Canada.


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## China hand

Those bales of blue asbestos were quite slippy, and hard to get into a lock-stow. When a stow collapsed ( as they often did), it was into the 'tween deck and re-stow it. Safety gear was, weather permitting, open the hatch a bit and wear a bandana over your nose. All part of the job NOT SO MANY YEARS AGO! Bank Line, 1970's. (EEK)


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## cueball44

Was there a lot of Asbestos related illness after WW2 due to bombs falling on buildings that contained the material ?. I should imagine lots of it was blown into the atmosphere and people inhaled it with all the other dust that was swirling around.


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## Varley

China hand said:


> Those bales of blue asbestos were quite slippy, and hard to get into a lock-stow. When a stow collapsed ( as they often did), it was into the 'tween deck and re-stow it. Safety gear was, weather permitting, open the hatch a bit and wear a bandana over your nose. All part of the job NOT SO MANY YEARS AGO! Bank Line, 1970's. (EEK)


It is a surprise to hear of this happening in the 70s.


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## China hand

Yes indeed Varley, I was wrong, it was in the 1980s.

Extract from my private log Friday December 12 1980.

Maputo ~ Djakarta
Day starts rolling heavily.
Ropes down F&A. Square up deck.
Shifting and re-stowing asbestos in No.2 TD.
All other stows OK.
Chippy to spin and grease vents.
QMs to help Sparkie in shack ready to paint.
Must chase butler re galley.

Routine day as Mate in a Bank boat.


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## chadburn

Blue Asbestos is the 'more' harmful if that is possible, before pre formed packing rings for Water Columns and valves we had to pick it up with our fingers, it was slippy material then pack both valves and glasses using a Copper packing tool made by ourselves of course.


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## Varley

China hand said:


> Yes indeed Varley, I was wrong, it was in the 1980s.
> That's even more worrying. I was brought up on Father's engineering stories (who might well have presented what he read as as if it was in 'his' time). One of them was the wife who had fallen victim only through the particulate matter in her husbands hair. I do not remember when this one was 'presented' but well before 1970.


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## Long gone

Varley said:


> China hand said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes indeed Varley, I was wrong, it was in the 1980s.
> That's even more worrying. I was brought up on Father's engineering stories (who might well have presented what he read as as if it was in 'his' time). One of them was the wife who had fallen victim only through the particulate matter in her husbands hair. I do not remember when this one was 'presented' but well before 1970.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds a bit like like my (maternal) grandmother. Granddad worked at Turner Brothers in Erith for many years, apparently there was no dust extraction equipment or anything such as that; this was in the 1960s and earlier. Anyway he died of 'double roaring pneumonia' in 1968, 2 years after he retired. Grandma had of course been doing his laundry, and she was given chest X-rays but was clear.
Click to expand...


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## twogrumpy

From the Torygraph today.

And http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/yoursay/opinion/yourletters/8744807.White_asbestos_is_not_a_hazard/

There was also the sparkproof tools that were issued for use down pumprooms and cargo tanks, I believe they were withdrawn as the material could flake off, be inhaled and cause cancer.


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## sandhopper

Back in the boom and bust of the 80s, wasn't there a story about Lloyds names? To be a Lloyds name one had to be rather wealthy but it seems that the entry requirements were dropped to £100k. If anyone is wondering about asbestos related claims, it seems that the new Lloyds syndicates received a somewhat toxic portfolio of risks e.g. asbestos. I'm sure they folded with resultant hardship for those mesothelioma victims.


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## chadburn

I had an old friend who was a name at Lloyds, he was involved in the payout when the Torrey Canyon came to grief, it nearly broke him as he had to sell his beloved D Type but he got back on his feet eventually. His D Type is now in the Beaulieu Motor Museum. The Insurance Companies try it seems every year to reduce their liability in regards to the payouts for Asbestos related problems.


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## retfordmackem

Steve Hodges said:


> Sorry to introduce a sombre note into this forum, but maybe some of you know the answers to some questions. During my time at sea , a lot in 50's and 60's built steamers, I know I got a lot of exposure to airborne asbestos from pipe insulation - sometimes water hammer when warming through pipes would result in snowstorms of the stuff. I'm now in my sixties and pretty healthy, but I know I have a greater than average chance of contracting mesothelioma, and that if I do I will probably get less than a year to sort things out, so I figure that the time to make enquiries is now. My questions are-
> - What is the track record for marine engineers making asbestos related compensation claims against their former employers ( specifically UK flag)?
> - What are the implications of subsequent exposure to asbestos in shoreside industry when making any such claim for exposure at sea?
> - Is there any assistance available from the successors of my union, the MNAOA?
> Any experiences of the above would be gratefully received, by personal message if preferred.


Steve I have read all the replies on here which do not appear to answer your post. Firstly let me tell you that there is a scheme to claim benefits via the Government . It is a benefit called IIDB Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit,including diseases . You claim via Form DI 100PD. Available from Barrow BENEFIT CENTRE on 03456031358 or from 0345 7585433. If you have a disease caused via work ,(and there are 70 of these)you are eligible to claim. You need to be at least 14% disabled to be eligible for the MINIMUM benefit . If you get awarded this you can then claim under the Governments 1979 Pnuemoconiosis act if you cannot claim via employers .
In answer to unions ,it would benefit you greatly to have the help of a Union as it is costly employing Solicitors for private claims . No win no fee schemes are available but be aware of hidden costs .
I suggest if you need to consider claiming benefits or compensation that you contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau for help. In box me if unable to get details of your local C.A.B . I used to be a volunteer adviser at CAB for 17 years,and dealt with many people claiming IIDB benefits and compensation claims via employers.
When you speak of subsequent exposure ashore ,you will need to sue either or both subsequent employees .remember carcinoma of the lung and asbestos diseases sometimes take at least 30 years to show there evil consequences .
There is no track record as such ,if you suffer from any of these diseases you are eligible to claim.


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## Steve Hodges

Thanks for that, retfordmackem. I note that the government scheme applies " if you cannot claim via employers". If - repeat if - I found myself in trouble, I have three employers where I had asbestos exposure, one at sea and two shoreside, so 
- would I claim for first exposure?
- would I claim for all three exposure scenarios?
- would I say that as the culpable exposure could be any of the three, there's 
no point trying?
- would the last option be accepted by the government scheme?
It strikes me that this situation is very messy and would take a lot of time and legal costs to sort out, but surely I'm not unique in this. I do know that normal prognosis for mesothelioma is less than twelve months survival, and that most legal claims take a lot longer than that to settle. I don't like the idea of leaving a millstone of an ongoing claim for my family, so that's why I'm looking into it now as a precaution.


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## retfordmackem

Steve Hodges said:


> Thanks for that, retfordmackem. I note that the government scheme applies " if you cannot claim via employers". If - repeat if - I found myself in trouble, I have three employers where I had asbestos exposure, one at sea and two shoreside, so
> - would I claim for first exposure?
> - would I claim for all three exposure scenarios?
> - would I say that as the culpable exposure could be any of the three, there's
> no point trying?
> - would the last option be accepted by the government scheme?
> It strikes me that this situation is very messy and would take a lot of time and legal costs to sort out, but surely I'm not unique in this. I do know that normal prognosis for mesothelioma is less than twelve months survival, and that most legal claims take a lot longer than that to settle. I don't like the idea of leaving a millstone of an ongoing claim for my family, so that's why I'm looking into it now as a precaution.


I realise you are looking on the black side ,but there could be a Posthumous claim also (and that is the black side). That's why I suggested the government route first -it costs nothing and they will do the medicals at no cost to you(which you can use in latter private claims).


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## jmcg

Google "Wittenoom Asbestos" and be prepared for hours of interesting facts, research and figures.

The applicable UK legislation is the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012. These Regulations capture companies, registered LLPs and sole traders that offer and provide services for reward.

DIY operations are not so captured although disposal of Asbestos Containing Materials (ACMs) is captured by Environmental legislation, of which the penalties for non compliance are severe.

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## Mad Landsman

A somewhat disturbing article in the Southampton Echo.
The report into the inquest following death of a woman who died aged 78 as the result of having peritoneal mesothelioma. (normally contracted by ingestion of particles rather than the more common respiration). 
It is claimed that she may have contracted it while washing her husbands work clothes - Her husband having been a Purser working for Sealink, and others. 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/11809532.Asbestos_in_laundry_led_to_rare_cancer/


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## twogrumpy

Interesting article here on how the NHS in Wales attempted to get the insurance firms to pay out for retrospective treatment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...os-patients-in-Wales-Supreme-Court-rules.html

"The judges also ruled that the law requiring companies to contribute retrospectively to the NHS’s care of patients interfered with the firms’ right to “peaceful enjoyment of their possessions” under human rights law."

Human rights law!! love or or hate it?


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## forthbridge

twogrumpy said:


> Interesting about the pleural plaques, plenty of asbestos related problems around my way in Portsmouth.
> 
> There was an item on the local news, and as I recall a sufferer was complaining that whatever compensation scheme he was trying to claim from would not pay out as he only had plaques and so was not entitled.
> This would slot in with what cueball said that they are not cancerous, which can only be a touch of good news on a worrying subject.
> 
> Well done on raising the subject Steve, 4 years in a naval dockyard and 18 with BP, it does tend to concern me.


One thing about Pleural plaques that I discovered within the last few weeks is that while you can not get compensation for these in England you can get it in Scotland because of legislation introduced by the Scottish Parliament and fought by them to the Supreme Court. It is complicated so if you were. A MNAOA or there later incarnations member even if you no longer a member it is worth contacting their legal department. They are very helpful. (even if you live in England. But may. Have been exposed in Scotland)


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## Shandy

Wives of laggers and laundry workers all have fallen victim to the dreaded asbestos. Ironing boards had pads on them which must have been very dry all the time and were in most homes and then the tripod in the science lab at school. Exposure must have started early in life.


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## John Rogers

Here in the States a 30 Billion dollars trust fund was established for the purpose of paying victims of this disease.



Asbestos Trust Funds



Companies have used asbestos for decades even though health risks have been known. Trust funds ($30+ billion) are available to compensate patients affected by mesothelioma.



Billions Available in Compensation

Victims of asbestos exposure received approximately $3.3 billion in total from asbestos trust funds in 2008. The median trust fund payout for a mesothelioma claim was $180,000, but some individuals claimed over $1 million. 
}

Mesothelioma Financial Aid Icon


Thousands Are Getting Financial Support

More and more mesothelioma patients and their families are turning to asbestos trust funds for financial support. Approximately 575,000 claims were paid out in 2008, helping families manage lost wages and treatment costs. 
}

Mesothelioma Financial Aid Icon


Mesothelioma Patients Are Victims

People who develop mesothelioma are victims of corporate misconduct. Companies using asbestos knew about the dangers of their products but neglected to inform their


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## twogrumpy

forthbridge said:


> One thing about Pleural plaques that I discovered within the last few weeks is that while you can not get compensation for these in England you can get it in Scotland because of legislation introduced by the Scottish Parliament and fought by them to the Supreme Court. It is complicated so if you were. A MNAOA or there later incarnations member even if you no longer a member it is worth contacting their legal department. They are very helpful. (even if you live in England. But may. Have been exposed in Scotland)


That is interesting, if you read the article I just posted you it says that the Welsh NHS were turned down over their claim against the insurance firms, and that the Scots were working on a similar case and they intended to fight it, so your lot may have more luck.


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## forthbridge

twogrumpy said:


> That is interesting, if you read the article I just posted you it says that the Welsh NHS were turned down over their claim against the insurance firms, and that the Scots were working on a similar case and they intended to fight it, so your lot may have more luck.


If you send me a pm with an e mail address I will try to send you a scan of the relative part of the Nautilus letter.


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## Supern

Don't know how I missed it but I know all about it as my husband died in 2013 of mesothelioma. In Australia you do not have to do anything much, if you are diagnosed with the disease then you are compensated. My husband was exposed at sea and on shore so he had a claim against two Australian employers and he was given a disability pension which was indexed from the UK. This pension ceased when he died. I get a pension from the Dust Board here in Australia as his widow. The compensation is a lot and its very helpful for me however it does not keep me company or talk to me. We had been married for forty years when he died.

Its a horrible cancer to get as it does not only affect the lungs, it ate three ribs and it a can take hold anywhere in the body. Some people like my brother in law suffere from asbestos related disease and he also died from it, his was not mesothelioma though and therefore he was not entitled to any compensation.

There are a lot of Trusts in America that pay out and I have solicitors who have claims against them and every now and then they pay out say 200 thousand dollars and my share would be about 15 and after solicitors I get ten or 12 thousand. These are on going as they sue everyone from the companies who employed the victims right back to the origin of the asbestos. 

We did not pursue GB mainly because my husband would have had to attend at doctors in UK and that was impossible because of the illness. However they knew he had it and hence he got a very good disability pension paid to him until he died.

Just to add my husband's cousin who was in the Royal Navey died of mesothelioma and of course our brother in law of asbestos related disease as he was a plumber in the ship yards on the Tyne. My husband also was exposed as a cadet when doing some of this time in the ship yards whilst with Common Brothers. He said the air was white with dust in those days. In Australia our solicitor told us the numbers are going up and they expect it to peak at 2020 and then go down, although this may not happen due to the people who are doing renovations on old houses and not removing the asbestos safely. They will be coming through in years to come.


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## alaric

I have recently been diagnosed with Asbestosis (not mesothelioma) and have just started making a claim against my 1957-68 sea-going employer’s insurers. Here in the UK this is necessary as there is no automatic compensation. In order to make a successful claim it is important to have as much collaborative evidence as possible. To back up my own summary of how sea-going staff were exposed to asbestos in the 1950s and 60s, I would welcome other accounts to be posted on this thread in order that I, and any others making a claim can use this additional evidence to support our cases. My summary is shown below, any reader is of course welcome to make use of these notes to support their own claim.
Exposure to Ship Board Asbestos 1957-1968
The usual form of providing thermal insulation on board both steam and motor ships was asbestos lagging.
In port, when starting main engines from cold, steam heating was used to warm through, and this caused machinery and pipework to hammer and bang as expansion took place. This process created visible asbestos dust in the air.
When running normally at sea, only small quantities of asbestos would be given off, but a continuous maintenance system resulted in some machinery, typically diesel generators being shut down and opened up for inspection, service and repair. Removal of cylinder heads required asbestos clad exhaust headers and manifolds to be disturbed and this gave rise to visible asbestos dust in the air.
Steam leaks from joints and valves sometimes developed while at sea, and jets of steam, impinging onto insulation surround the component created clouds of asbestos dust.
A particularly bad exposure to asbestos at sea when serving on SS Northern Star is related in Appendix A and B attached. These articles were originally written in 2010 for Shaw Savill Society’s newsletter.
Shaw Savill refrigerated cargo ships spent more time in port in UK and Europe, Australia and New Zealand loading and unloading cargo than spent at sea. (Pre containers).
The greatest regular exposure to asbestos took place when ships were in port and machinery was opened up for inspection, service, repair and survey. To gain access to carry out these works it was necessary to remove insulation which gave rise to visible asbestos dust in the air. Further exposure took place at completion of work when asbestos was replaced.
In addition to its insulation function, asbestos based materials were extensively used for jointing and sealing, particularly valve and pump glands. These components required frequent routine maintenance, removing old, used material gave rise to dust as did cutting and forming replacement joints and seals.
During all my service with Shaw Savill & Albion no proper precautions were ever taken to minimise or contain asbestos dust during the works described above and no masks or personal protective clothing were made available for this purpose. Indeed, virtually the only protective clothing supplied at all was gloves needed for particularly hot jobs, ironically these were made from asbestos.
Staff serving on company ships were not given information or training regarding risk to health caused by exposure to asbestos. 
Asbestos was regarded as a nuisance rather than a hazard.

Any response will be most welcome.


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## Supern

Just having mesothelioma means that a person has been exposed to asbestos and that is the crux of the matter and compensation is paid here in Aus anyway no matter whether you worked with it, walked down the street and breathed it or were in contact but do not know where. No compensation is paid for any other conditions other than "mesothelioma".


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## Fergie

I was diagnosed with Pleural Plaques from Asbestos exposure in 2005. Exposure to Asbestos started in 1940 as an engineering apprentice working on ship engineroom repairs, then as a sea going engineer, then when I came ashore working for a company that imported asbestos packings and jointings and lagging materials. Consequently nobody would accept responsibility. Here in New Zealand we have a Government organisation Accident Compensation Corporation which investigates all accidents and injuries from sports, industrial injuries, domestic injuries, (even tourists) etc and they provide compensation and assistance according to a published scale. This system then takes away an individuals right to sue an organisation, but a company can be taken to court for having an unsafe working environment. In my case I have a free annual xray and thank God there has been no movement detected since first diagnosed. I am now 88 so have been very fortunate. From ACC I have had treatments from specialists in their field for various injuries I have suffered, the best being free hearing aids for about 10 years and free batteries whenever required. The cost to the country for ACC is horrendous but it is a reasonably fair and supportive organisation, especially for those left.


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## spongebob

My latest cross to bear is diagnosis of COPD, chronic obstructive pulmonary desease, a flattening of the airways to the lungs. Which is akin to asthma in its effects. The effects are moderated by the use of inhalers which I use only on occasions such as before going for a walk or mowing the lawn, effort that brings on the 'puffs' fairly quickly. 
I am told that this onset is not related to the existence of asbestos related pleural plagues but is more age related and a 'companion' to the existing desease.
I am philophosical enough to accept that while there are men of similar age around me that are running half marathons there are many more far less fit than I and while rising 81 I am reasonably content with my place in the queue.
A PSA of 43 is the latest monkey on my back but my nurologist recons that I will die with them rather than from them so the real worry becomes "will the money run out". 
It is a lucky man that reaches a good age and grinds to a halt defect free .

Bob


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## twogrumpy

Not sure what level of compo our chaps have received or are expecting, but this was in my paper today.

"The largest compensation reported by the NASUWT was for £210,000 for a retired teacher who was diagnosed with cancer in 2013 following nearly a decade of exposure in the classroom."

Not sure if is the same case they reported some months back where the cause of the asbestosis was put down to the teacher pinning notices to the wall/boards with drawing pins. A reasoning I found a little tenuous considering the levels we worked with over an extended period.


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## Farmer John

Exposure at any level seems to have the ability to cause the disease, but like so many causes of disease, high levels of exposure will leave some unaffected. Compensation should follow the disease, I don't see your point, #49.


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## twogrumpy

I would have thought it was perfectly clear.#50


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## Steve Hodges

My reading of the "point" of post #49 is that if you have a large, high-profile union fighting your case, and it's the taxpayer that is going to pay the compensation, then you have a much better chance of achieving a high settlement. But sadly, there are no "winners" in these cases.....


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## jmcg

Anyone who smoked was at greater risk. Asbestos was also an ingredient of baby powders up until about 20 years ago.

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## Dartskipper

Little plastic bags of loose asbestos fibres were sold in hardware stores as Rawlplastic,and it was mixed into a paste with water to help fix screws in the walls of your house. A few manufacturers of easy assembly garages and sheds used asbestos sheet, which could deteriorate on exposure to weather. I must have handled many feet of asbestos rope to lag exhaust pipes in engine rooms of small craft. All without protective equipment.

I'm still breathing OK, but you have to wonder exactly how many lives have been affected by a material that was in widespread use because it was thought to be safe.


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## Peter Cheseldine

Ron Stringer said:


> I recently wanted to install recessed lights in the kitchen ceiling. Rather than put up with my wife's complaints about me being in the way while she wanted to cook, I contacted a local electrician to do the job for me. (My wife always accepts that tradesmen will require undisturbed access whilst doing work on the property - she never offers me the same privileges).
> 
> He (and two other electricians that I subsequently contacted) refused to do the work because the ceiling - as with all the ceilings in the house) has been artexed at some time prior to our arrival 20 years ago. Apparently all Artex prior to about 1990 may contain an amount of asbestos. Drilling the holes for the lights would release dust that might contain asbestos and the subsequent risk was not acceptable to the electricians or their insurers.
> 
> I had never heard of this and, in the 1960s, during the refurbishment of a very old house my wife and I artexed several badly cracked and crumbling lath-and-plaster ceilings. So far we have suffered no ill effects.
> 
> So I put up with the complaints from my wife and did the job myself. I then got a plasterer to skim the ceiling with plaster to cover up the places where I had to cut holes for access to the wiring. (By the way, I had the usual moans that I was in the way during the couple of hours that it took me to cut the hole and put in the wiring - the plasterer had none _and _was offered frequent cups of tea, even though he was there for two half-days).
> 
> It is now the only ceiling in the house that does not appear to be artexed, so if I ever needed any further work in there, I should be able to get an electrician without a problem!


The only problem is, Ron, that when you come to sell the house, you must by law declare that you are aware of skimmed Artex.


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## chadburn

Peter is correct you have to be very careful when you sell a property when it comes to declarations about certain aspects of the older property and you need to make sure that the new owners accept in writing that you have informed them directly or through their Agents.


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## Ron Stringer

Peter Cheseldine said:


> The only problem is, Ron, that when you come to sell the house, you must by law declare that you are aware of skimmed Artex.


When the house is eventually sold I fear I will not be present. If the Church is to be believed, probably I shall be in a place where I will be in dire need of any quantity of asbestos that I may have absorbed in the 1960s and more besides. 

In the 1960s I was fitting radio and radar equipment on Tyne-side aboard _RFA Sir Percivale_, which was completing in Palmer's drydock at Hebburn. Whilst I was working in a machine compartment, the deckhead and bulkheads were being treated by a man using a man using a spray gun above and around me to apply a coating of a thick white gunge which, when it dried off, made it appear as if the compartment (and I) had been pebble-dashed. I had to stop work to allow him to treat the area behind the radar alternator that I was fitting. When he had finished I asked him what the stuff was and learned that it was asbestos, intended to restrict the spread of fire. 

After watching the horrible scenes from San Carlos Water some 35 years ago, with the flames engulfing _RFA Sir Galahad_, a ship of the same class, I wondered if her Clyde-side builders had similarly treated the ship's internal surfaces and, if so, whether it had been of any use.

Since retirement I have had cancer of the bowel and liver and currently am being treated for prostate cancer but none of those conditions have any link to asbestos - as far as I know.


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## Varley

If your executors choose cremation Ron, any residues will delay your departure to those hotter climbs where we expect to gather should I be wrong about deity(ies). Anyway you will find everyone from TT Stonehaven to keep you company and no ship we were on kept the fires in for long enough to do more than a few days light braising at a time. Plenty of time to cool off in the blackouts.

In the US a court has linked ovarian cancer (that's one we will certainly dodge) with the asbestos that used to be in tal*** powder. The route to the affected part from the talcommed nether site cannot be much different, in strictly distance terms, to any of your embuggerations even if one of our two access point is somewhat smaller bore than with the lady-specific one (one assumes the lady was fannypowdering rather than fireproofing).


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## ART6

I'm not sure that this is entirely relevant to this thread, but anyway:
six years ago an old friend of mine was prescribed an antibiotic for a chest infection, but that caused a severe attack of jaundice. In treating that the hospital discovered using MRI scans that he has a seriously enlarged aorta (apparently a major blood vessel that runs down inside close to the spine ??). The prognosis was that it could burst at any time, and if it did he would be dead in a minute or two and there would be nothing anyone could do about it. The surgical procedure, however, required the displacement of his intestines and other vital organs to provide access. He was scared witless of the idea, and he called me to discuss it, but I persuaded him that he couldn't take the risk to go on without it.

The operation was a success, but it left him in agonising pain for weeks once they had put back all of his internal wiring and pipework and it all tried to find its allotted place. But then further scans to check his progress discovered scars in his lungs and developing cancer. He had been a pipe smoker for years, but it wasn't that. It was asbestos. Again he called me to talk to a friend, because the medics wanted him back in hospital to have half his lungs removed. "I don't think I can face all that again old mate!" He said.

How do you respond to a very old friend who says that? I can't remember what I said in that conversation other than to understand. He elected for radiation treatment instead of surgery, but the cancer got worse once having started, and his already croaky voice over the telephone became more croaky. He told me how the treatment was reducing him to a cripple, when he couldn't eat or get out of a chair, but I kept telling him it would get better.

Then one morning I received a call from his son. Apparently Dad had passed away in his chair in their home, and hour before he had said "I was going to call Tony today. Must do that." 

Is it unmanly to cry at times like that? I did.

Several months later his wife, a lovely woman and dear friend of my wife and the most gentle creature on God's earth, was walking her dog when she suffered a massive brain blood vessel rupture. She never recovered and died a few days later!

So now, I doubt if this post will bring any comfort to those who are worried or cautious, but I have become inclined to take the view that if it has your name on it, it will get you. So I was exposed to exactly the same environment in shipyards and steamships as was my old friend, but in seventy-seven years it ain't got me yet! So just stop worrying and as you get older get your affairs in order, and avail yourself of a twelve-inch wheelkey to smack that dark b*****rd with a scythe when he comes for you! Oh, and in my case, I am inclined to rely upon a few bottles of good whiskey and a carton of **** in the locker, because if my wheelkey doesn't get rid of that dark b*****rd then I won't care a s**t either way!


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## Varley

I had two friends with aneurisms (one aeortic artery and she had the reinforcing surgery, indeed painful, and one 'silent' renal, he died very quickly when it 'divided'). We suspect my housekeeper also died of a cerebral one 'dividing' but that information was not released. On the occasions when I was regularly ultrasounded (for a kidney cyst until 'they' decided it was not going to do anything nasty) I always asked the radiographer/olgist if they would be good enough to have a quick 'recce' for this. On said she always did and the latest prior to colonoscopy gave me a running commentary with the caveat that a little of the gut with gas pockets obscured her view. ("Divided", I gather is medicospeak for "split" when applied to aneurisms). You're right, a little off the asbestos thread, but not without interest I hope.


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## forthbridge

spongebob said:


> Steve, people exposed to the asbestos laden atmospheres of steam ship engine rooms and the like in those years gone by faced a relatively high risk as I did while serving my apprenticeship at a naval dockyard but it is not necessarily a death sentence as the extent of contamination can vary considerably.
> I understand that the most vulnerable were those working a laggers and cladders in the insulation industry where constant day by day exposure over long periods almost guaranteed contamination of the lungs.
> This was brought home to me over my years in the boiler industry with Babcock and Wilcox where I knew several men in that trade that met their fate.
> My time with Babcock was mostly desk bound and the problem was well flagged by them so precautions were taken on construction sites but never the less I did not miss the bullet as as late as 40 years after the exposure at the dockyard a routine chest ex ray produced a diagnosis of asbestosis .
> A trying time especially as on being placed on the NZ Government's asbestos register I received a proposal from a class action lawyer to sue the Government for 300000-00 dollars compensation on my behalf and for 100000 on behalf of my partner.
> My doctor then organised a more definite probe in the form of a CT scan and an MRI scan which saw the diagnosis somewhat diluted to asbestos related plaques on my lungs, a condition that has not changed in anyway over the last 22 years . My only defect is a lowered lung capacity to 69 % at the last test which means I puff a bit with exertion but at 80 years of age I think that I am allowed to?
> I have kept aware of this subject and in general most of us that have been caught out suffer from the less invasive plaques.
> After the plaque diagnosis the class action obtained a reduced settlement on my behalf of 25000 dollars, discounted from 30000 dollars after me admitting to being a one time smoker.
> I know nothing of the compensation rules or laws in the UK but my suggestion would be to have a high resolution scan of the MRI or CT type to determine your condition and I am sure that your mind will be put to rest.
> 
> Bob


The laws are different dependant on the part of UK you live in. In Scotland and Northern Ireland there is compensation for pleural plaques in England and Wales there is none. I found I got very good information from Nautilus legal department(successors to the MNAOA) even though you left them many years ago.They are very helpful, myI got a response to my e mail the day after I sent it.


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## jmcg

Ron Stringer

That gunge you refer to is called Limpet. As you state used extensively for fire proofing. Still see it today in old power stations, warehouses and any place where steel columns/beams etc were part of a structure. 

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## jmcg

All

This may be of use for ID purposes.

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## Ron Stringer

jmcg said:


> Ron Stringer
> 
> That gunge you refer to is called Limpet. As you state used extensively for fire proofing. Still see it today in old power stations, warehouses and any place where steel columns/beams etc were part of a structure.
> 
> BW
> 
> J(Gleam)(Gleam)


Think Limpet is the modern replacement for the stuff they used 50 years ago. This seems to be more like the stuff that I saw used (on the ship and on me) http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/sprayed.htm


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## sternchallis

With reference to Varleys post #60.
I was recently diagnosed with gallstones, a pain just below the sternum. A day or two prior I had received a letter about a AAA scan ( Abdominal Aortic Aneurism, don't trying saying that after 6 pints of Brains Bitter, you will choke to death). Whilst I was in for the gallstones scan I asked the radiologist if she would do the AAA while I had my chest bared and she had her toys out to play. She said we do that anyway plus liver and kidneys. So everything was ship shape but had a 1 cm gallstone, so the gallbladder is coming out at the first opportunity, 
( being once a constituent of Two Jags John, its a case of one out all out). So I asked her was it a boy or girl (sonogram), Triplets she said. 
So that is one of the female sex, one of the male sex and one from middlesex.
The AAA is quite prevalent in smokers and they call you up when your 65 for a check regardless of being a smoker or not. They can't do a Thistlebond patch, but put in a new bit of pipe I believe. Gallbladder is a keyhole job, so go home the next day.
Asked GP about lung xray regarding asbestosis. He said if you have no symptoms the xray can do more damage. I lead quite an active life and no shortage of breath, just short term memory, RAM as it were.


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## Basil

sternchallis, what a coincidence! Five minutes ago I was speaking to my sis-in-law in Largs who told me that her husband had just had an AAA scan; I'd never heard of them nor of the lack of warning and rapidly fatal consequences of having said aneurism.
Do we get them FOC in England?


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## Duncan112

Dartskipper said:


> Little plastic bags of loose asbestos fibres were sold in hardware stores as Rawlplastic,and it was mixed into a paste with water to help fix screws in the walls of your house. A few manufacturers of easy assembly garages and sheds used asbestos sheet, which could deteriorate on exposure to weather. I must have handled many feet of asbestos rope to lag exhaust pipes in engine rooms of small craft. All without protective equipment.
> 
> I'm still breathing OK, but you have to wonder exactly how many lives have been affected by a material that was in widespread use because it was thought to be safe.


Anyone else remember Devcon "Formpack" Asbestos fibres in a sort of oily putty - worked wonders on worn valve spindles!!


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## sternchallis

Basil said:


> sternchallis, what a coincidence! Five minutes ago I was speaking to my sis-in-law in Largs who told me that her husband had just had an AAA scan; I'd never heard of them nor of the lack of warning and rapidly fatal consequences of having said aneurism.
> Do we get them FOC in England?


Yes FOC in England, though it could be a postcode lottery.
Yes you get to lay there bare chested whilst some young lady rubs lubricant on your chest, though it only lasts 15 minutes and get you to see the pictures afterwards if you ask her.
I had my initial AAA cancelled because they did the other scan, shouldn't have said anything. Knowing my bad luck would have got a queer male nurse doing the official AAA scan.
It was a week before I was 65 I got the letter out of the blue, in fact it was a reminder, the actual letter with explanation came a day later. Stable Doors and horses came to mind.


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## Jim Glover

very true about using earmuffs


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## alaric

jmcg said:


> All
> 
> This may be of use for ID purposes.
> 
> BW
> 
> J(Gleam)(Gleam)


Thanks for posting BW, this information will be very helpful to those making claims.
Asbestos really was ubiquitous.


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## tiachapman

heard they have stopped cremating ships carpenters/ as they are fire proof.


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## Varley

sternchallis said:


> With reference to Varleys post #60.
> I was recently diagnosed with gallstones, a pain just below the sternum. A day or two prior I had received a letter about a AAA scan ( Abdominal Aortic Aneurism, don't trying saying that after 6 pints of Brains Bitter, you will choke to death). Whilst I was in for the gallstones scan I asked the radiologist if she would do the AAA while I had my chest bared and she had her toys out to play. She said we do that anyway plus liver and kidneys. So everything was ship shape but had a 1 cm gallstone, so the gallbladder is coming out at the first opportunity,
> ( being once a constituent of Two Jags John, its a case of one out all out). So I asked her was it a boy or girl (sonogram), Triplets she said.
> So that is one of the female sex, one of the male sex and one from middlesex.
> 
> 
> The AAA is quite prevalent in smokers and they call you up when your 65 for a check regardless of being a smoker or not. They can't do a Thistlebond patch, but put in a new bit of pipe I believe. Gallbladder is a keyhole job, so go home the next day.
> Asked GP about lung xray regarding asbestosis. He said if you have no symptoms the xray can do more damage. I lead quite an active life and no shortage of breath, just short term memory, RAM as it were.


Keyhole should be safe enough for gallbladder excision these days but I learned on Monday that a 'shipmate' in dock presently had a bowel tumour removed that way. I fear his subsequent troubles may have been as a result of the technique being not as well practised for that as for gall bladders. They stopped the condition monitoring approach on Sunday and pulled the unit, all the way past the crosshead to the crankshaft by the sound of it. Not fit enough for visiting again yet (how pleasant it is to visit someone who has retained their short term memory). Obviously a longer planned recovery time but as the clock used to monitor the original plan was running so slowly I guess it would have been the quicker option.


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## Ron Stringer

Varley said:


> Keyhole should be safe enough for gallbladder excision these days but I learned on Monday that a 'shipmate' in dock presently had a bowel tumour removed that way. I


David,

You may have something there. My next-door neighbour and his wife were considered he was somewhat superior when his bowel tumour was removed by keyhole surgery (mine involved the full spatchcock procedure). I was in hospital for 8 days and he came home after only 3. And I had to have 8 months of chemotherapy (the cancer had spread to my liver) and he didn't. 

But then he had to have a colostomy bag - I didn't. After 3 months he had to go back to have the colostomy reversed. However after 6 months the tumour returned and he had to go back, this time for the full Monty and was in intensive care for 7 days following the operation. Once he was conscious he suffered from hallucinations for several days. After 13 days he came home looking 10 years older and is making a slow recovery - still with the colostomy bag - and wonders if they did the right thing in opting for the keyhole procedure.

Since my treatment 12 years ago I have never had any further problems. Progress can be a funny thing.


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## Varley

We are not all the same, Ron, (as my GP remarks enviously). I would still count you as lucky. Or more sensibly not as unlucky as you could have been. David


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## clarkie59

Due to having a cough for quite a time my wife insisted that I went to see my GP. As soon as I mentioned my background she sent me for a chest x-ray. Needless to say I cra**ed myself. Fortunately the results proved I did not have Asbestosis however the Dr said she was amazed that people like us are not automatically screened for asbestosis.


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## tiachapman

worked with it lived with it think we actually ate it ships were full of it.


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## sternchallis

*Bladderless*

Job and knock on the bladder removal today. Feeling great at home.
Mouth like the bottom of a budgies cage, could murder a tube of a frosty Fosters, but need to leave alcohol for two weeks. I am not much of a drinker, spill most of it. Recommend anybody who has a gallstone attack to have it whipped out asap. It is surplus to requirements anyway.


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## Varley

Great news. I hope they remembered to take the key out before letting you go.


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## tiachapman

yer alcohol nealy killed me couldnd get any for 3 hours shop was shut


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## david m leadbetter

Have been following this thread on and off for a while as earlier xrays showed plaques. I now have mesothelioma and cancer. During the last twelve months I have been recuperating/convalescing after major surgery to the right lung.
I have been progressing a claim through the British Pension offices (IIDB) also , with some semblance of success.
If anybody puts in a claim the forms will point out the relevant information required and supporting docs. needed. I must say that air mail is a bit slow, but persist!


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## alaric

david m leadbetter said:


> Have been following this thread on and off for a while as earlier xrays showed plaques. I now have mesothelioma and cancer. During the last twelve months I have been recuperating/convalescing after major surgery to the right lung.
> I have been progressing a claim through the British Pension offices (IIDB) also , with some semblance of success.
> If anybody puts in a claim the forms will point out the relevant information required and supporting docs. needed. I must say that air mail is a bit slow, but persist!


David, you can also claim from your old employers and/or their insurers.
My solicitors have recently made a successful claim against the insurers for my asbestosis, even though my employers (Shaw Savill) went out of business many years ago.
Most large British law firms will make claims on a no win, no fee basis.
If you need more information please contact me with a PM.
Best wishes and best of luck.


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## tiachapman

charge higher fees for cremating carpenters using to much gas to cremate them as most are fire proof, owing to the fact they worked with the stuff for years


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## Steve Hodges

clarkie59 said:


> Due to having a cough for quite a time my wife insisted that I went to see my GP. As soon as I mentioned my background she sent me for a chest x-ray. Needless to say I cra**ed myself. Fortunately the results proved I did not have Asbestosis however the Dr said she was amazed that people like us are not automatically screened for asbestosis.


Unlike your doctor, I am not amazed. As this thread has demonstrated, asbestos-related disease - if detected early - can mean compensation, and a lot of that compensation bill would land at the government's door. Call me cynical if you like, but I can't see them looking for trouble and extra cost by instituting a proper screening programme.
I had prostate cancer about ten years back, successfully treated with surgery. I am supposed to have a PSA blood test annually just to check there is no remission, but I have to remember it. My GP's surgery could very, very easily set up on their computer to send me an annual reminder, but they don't. Why not? Because in today's "internal market" within the NHS, my GP has to pay for that blood test. The moral of the story is that nowadays you shouldn't expect the NHS to look after you automatically, it's your responsibility to demand checks and tests if you think they could be required.
Thankfully, to date I have had no chest or respiratory problems, but if anything untoward arises, given my asbestos exposure history, I will be howling for chest x-rays.


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## twogrumpy

As "Our NHS" manages to get out reminders for the annual sh!t on a card bowel cancer test, and the annual MOT with our GP's, you would not have thought it beyond their clearly limited ability to tag on your PSA reminder.

While not exactly asbestos related, this is interesting on what we had to breath at sea http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sailor-warships-mould-1.4211015

The joke that if a cold or dose of flu appeared on board it was soon transmitted round the ship via the ventilation system may be closer to the truth than we thought.


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