# 20th century Mate certification



## WendyJ

Would appreciate any advice on anywhere that I can find records (preferebly online) of application for Mate certification for someone who would have gone through this process between about 1935 and 1955. I know that they first went to sea in 1932, were a cabin boy in 1933 and were 1st Mate when they died at sea in 1956. I have their DOB, full name and discharge number. Looks like the records would be in BT318 but a search on the National Archives site did not reveal anything useful...


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## captainconfusion

_i may be being long winded, and it is a route that costs? quite a sum?
From the discharge book take the name of the ship in which the persons sailed as C/O Ist mate, Then approach Greenwich Maritime Museum with the the voyage/date of signing on-off, and ask for a copy of the ships log and articles, from this you may get at a cost the actual ticket Number for C/O. Then you are will have to go to the MCA Marine and Coast Guards agency and ask for a record of that persons ticket history from start to finish, For instants while he served as Ist mate- chief officer. QUESTION did he actually pass his masters foreign going certificate of competency?? Did he achieve that route cabin boy/galley boy to a Masters certificate- Quite an achievement, REgards Best wishes on your search- It will cost, I estimate with the officialdom of paper work some £200+ maybe more.
I respectfully suggest you talk to an official or archivist at the Maritime Museum Greenwich first for a road map/route of the possible problems [costs overall] ahead. for verifying the career of your family/friend._


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## WendyJ

captainconfusion said:


> _i may be being long winded, and it is a route that costs? quite a sum?
> From the discharge book take the name of the ship in which the persons sailed as C/O Ist mate, Then approach Greenwich Maritime Museum with the the voyage/date of signing on-off, and ask for a copy of the ships log and articles, from this you may get at a cost the actual ticket Number for C/O. Then you are will have to go to the MCA Marine and Coast Guards agency and ask for a record of that persons ticket history from start to finish, For instants while he served as Ist mate- chief officer. QUESTION did he actually pass his masters foreign going certificate of competency?? Did he achieve that route cabin boy/galley boy to a Masters certificate- Quite an achievement, REgards Best wishes on your search- It will cost, I estimate with the officialdom of paper work some £200+ maybe more.
> I respectfully suggest you talk to an official or archivist at the Maritime Museum Greenwich first for a road map/route of the possible problems [costs overall] ahead. for verifying the career of your family/friend._


Thank you so much for your thoughtful and detailed reply. Unfortunately this is a distant relative and it would be difficult to justify such expense on the research. I was hoping that, if I could get hold of his applications for certificates of competency at each stage of his career, these would hold most of the details of his life of service, as well as other personal details, much as they are available on the same do***ents from earlier decades that I already have obtained for many other maritime ancestors. I have not seen the corresponding do***ents from this period (1930s-1950s) and would be interested to know if the search would be worth the effort.


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## captainconfusion

Basically being rude, your up a gum tree without a paddle? Your only record is the certificate of competancy wallet of the highest awarded certificate that was issued.
If you are wondering, Have a hard look at the dischard record book, if you have the copy?
If you are lucky it may record the Certificate of Competancy number? However this is a doubtful path?
Maybe take another look at the Dischard book, it should record all his voyages on record, and for that period of seatime there is maybe more than one discharge book that has been issued to the gentleman.
Now look again and find a gap between Voyages some 4-6 months and look at the port of discharge, or where he lived /resided- Here you may find a clue as to which college, and Board of Trade/Department of Trade and Industry examination centre he may have attended? {these were generally in the major ports{ fishing voyages and personnel took SEPERATE examinations}
You can consider LONDON, SOUTHAMPTON, PLYMOUTH, CARDIFF, LIVERPOOL, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Edinburgh/Leith, NEWCASTLE, HULL.- and the colleges in these ports at that time.
As a guide the actual sea time before certificates of competency for foriegn going voyages could be taken were i believe for the deck officers:-
Third mate/officer-I am unsure off for a rating who had to study and pass his part A of the examinations, before he was allotted sea time? Maybe some 4/5 years on watch keeping duties, that had to be completed on articles..
Second Mate/officer deck the regulation period perhaps some 18/24 months on articles in sea service
First Mate/Chief Officer some regulations period 18/24 months on watchkeeping duties and on articles.
Master/Captain Some 18/24 months on watchkeeeping duties, again on articles before sitting the examination.
One could pass Part A and still go to sea in the lower rank before taking Part B of the particular exam, and one could take only Part B when one had qualified and had in his discharge book the required minimum sea time for the rank of the certificate being applied for/taken.
You may note that the actual sea time from a galley boy/ deck boy, cabin boy is a torturous route, and from start to as a cabin boy 15 years old, there may be an age barrier before he could assume watch keeping duties on the bridge at say a minimum age of 18 years, So Taking the sea time alone you may have;
2 years cabin boy
4/5 Years sea time
24 months as a 3rd mate
24 months as a 2nd Mate
24 months as a 1st mate? chief officer.
Thats a minimum of some 13 years on articles alone? that is without voyage leave, so yo could ad with study leave ant and voyage, say a minimum of some 3 years [36 months].
If one adds the master certificate sea time one is looking at another 3 years. a total sea time of some 16 years on foreign going articles.
If one mixes in with this coastal voyages and sea time for just coastal voyages Cape ST Vincent NW Europe and to NORTH Norway Cape Narvik, one has a complex problem of research,
You have a career to hand 1932 to 1956 including wwii and convoys, and permit certificates[Maybe= the same ship same company- sailing in the higher rank, while having not passed Part B of the certificate exam, but having done the minimum sea time on articles.
Have a wonder, your research could be fun?
some 24 years of a career,


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## Hugh MacLean

Hi Wendy and welcome,
What you need in fact is Lloyd's Captains Register 1851 - 1947 which is held at the London Metropolitan Archives.






London Metropolitan Archives Collection Catalogue







search.lma.gov.uk





If you wished to give his name and discharge book number I could look for other records.
Regards
Hugh


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## WendyJ

Hugh MacLean said:


> Hi Wendy and welcome,
> What you need in fact is Lloyd's Captains Register 1851 - 1947 which is held at the London Metropolitan Archives.
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> London Metropolitan Archives Collection Catalogue
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> search.lma.gov.uk
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> If you wished to give his name and discharge book number I could look for other records.
> Regards
> Hugh


Thanks Hugh. Will look into that. The rank that he was occupying on his final voyage was 1st Mate. I realise that he may have qualified further as Master, but have no evidence of this. His name is John William Charles Cameron (Born 1916 in Drumbeg, Assynt, Sutherland, Scotland). His discharge number (given in the Register of Deceased Seamen for 1956) was R105476. The ship that he was serving on at the time of his accidental death was Baron Glenconner (180209), registered in Ardrossan.


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## Hugh MacLean

Wendy,
I am having some access problems with some of my sources but I can point you to some of the files available from TNA Kew just in case you dont have them.
His seaman's pouch - BT 372/25/22 the contents which can be hit or miss but should provide an id photo of the seaman and if you are lucky a CR2 card of previous service prior to 1941. Service after 1941 is contained in a form CRS 10 which would list all his ships from Jan, 1941 until his death in 1956. His CRS 10 should be available at Kew in piece BT 382/265 this file though is best obtained by a visit to Kew or via a researcher as the file is contained in a box of up to 60 other names and TNA Kew would charge you a lot to obtain it. 

He also has a medal file in BT 395/1/14099 free to download if you sign in. The file seems to show only the 1939-45 Star but he probably should have had more depending on where he went. Might be worth contacting the Registry of Shipping and Seamen in Cardiff and quoting his file number 9821 for more information.
Regards
Hugh


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## WendyJ

Hugh MacLean said:


> Wendy,
> I am having some access problems with some of my sources but I can point you to some of the files available from TNA Kew just in case you dont have them.
> His seaman's pouch - BT 372/25/22 the contents which can be hit or miss but should provide an id photo of the seaman and if you are lucky a CR2 card of previous service prior to 1941. Service after 1941 is contained in a form CRS 10 which would list all his ships from Jan, 1941 until his death in 1956. His CRS 10 should be available at Kew in piece BT 382/265 this file though is best obtained by a visit to Kew or via a researcher as the file is contained in a box of up to 60 other names and TNA Kew would charge you a lot to obtain it.
> 
> He also has a medal file in BT 395/1/14099 free to download if you sign in. The file seems to show only the 1939-45 Star but he probably should have had more depending on where he went. Might be worth contacting the Registry of Shipping and Seamen in Cardiff and quoting his file number 9821 for more information.
> Regards
> Hugh


Thanks Hugh. Much appreciated. I have his medal file from TNA, which is just as you describe. Will look into the other areas that you suggest. Regards, Wendy


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## Stephen J. Card

You definitely need the Disharge Book information. It is quite possible the person may have been in the coastal trades and in that case might have had a 2nd Mate (Foreign Going) or Mate (Home Trade) certificate. The Mate (Foreign Going) or Mster (FG) would not be necessary for the home trades. 

If I am not sure, back to the 1930s etc, a certificate for Mate not have been necessary at all. The Home Trade certs are used for coasting but in fact they are certifucate for Home Trade (Passenger vessels) like ferries.

Stephen


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## WendyJ

Stephen J. Card said:


> You definitely need the Disharge Book information. It is quite possible the person may have been in the coastal trades and in that case might have had a 2nd Mate (Foreign Going) or Mate (Home Trade) certificate. The Mate (Foreign Going) or Mster (FG) would not be necessary for the home trades.
> 
> If I am not sure, back to the 1930s etc, a certificate for Mate not have been necessary at all. The Home Trade certs are used for coasting but in fact they are certifucate for Home Trade (Passenger vessels) like ferries.
> 
> Stephen


Thanks Stephen. He was definitely foreign going - died off East Africa. 
I know that TNA have BT318 (Registry of Shipping and Seamen: Registers of Passes and Failures in Examination for Certificates of Masters, Mates and Engineers 1929-84) but it appears that this is not completely digitized as yet.


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## Stephen J. Card

Hi Wendy,

Well, it narrows a touch. The Mate would have been about 36 years old. Death off West Africa. Accident on board?

Stephen


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## WendyJ

Stephen J. Card said:


> Hi Wendy,
> 
> Well, it narrows a touch. The Mate would have been about 36 years old. Death off West Africa. Accident on board?
> 
> Stephen


Yes. He was just 40 at the time. Accidental death due to injuries. "Pinned by starboard section of deep tank lid against after part of fore and aft midship bulkhead in No.3 lower hold". Sounds pretty terrible end. Do you know what is a deep tank lid, by any chance?


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## lakercapt

A deep tank lid was a heavy metal cover that was secured on top of a deep tank. This tank could possibly be in number three hold tween deck. This tank could be used for liquid or dry stoarage. I was lifted off using the ship's derricks and winches. If it was a "Baron" boat they dd not change their design for many years and this was the configuration when I sal with them (to my horror)


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## WendyJ

lakercapt said:


> A deep tank lid was a heavy metal cover that was secured on top of a deep tank. This tank could possibly be in number three hold tween deck. This tank could be used for liquid or dry stoarage. I was lifted off using the ship's derricks and winches. If it was a "Baron" boat they dd not change their design for many years and this was the configuration when I sal with them (to my horror)


That is very helpful. Thanks!


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## Stephen J. Card

Palm Line or Elder Dempster perhaps. Horrible accident.


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## jmcg

As Stephen has penned above EDs and Palm Line vessels carried Palm Oil back to the UK using the tanks as describer by Lakercapt. From memory these tanks were hinged and were torqued down to exacting tolerances when full. It was a tedious and frantic job as palm oil had to kept very hot and pure indeed..

BW

J


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## lakercapt

Yes in Palm line we carried Palm oil in deep tanks but in Baron boats, they would not have done so as they did not have heating coils which would be essential.
I remember having to take the temperatures several times a day and the hands when we finished were soft.


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## Stephen J. Card

Palm oil in deep tanks.... roughly how many tonnes? Where did it come from? By road tanker or a 'terminal' just for this purpose. What about discharge... ship's pumps with own pipe line like a small 'tanker'? How to clean to prepare for general?


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## WendyJ

jmcg said:


> As Stephen has penned above EDs and Palm Line vessels carried Palm Oil back to the UK using the tanks as describer by Lakercapt. From memory these tanks were hinged and were torqued down to exacting tolerances when full. It was a tedious and frantic job as palm oil had to kept very hot and pure indeed..
> 
> BW
> 
> J


Very interesting. Thank you for this.


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## lakercapt

Palm oil down the "coast" was loaded in different ports in many ways. Some had pipes from the wharf and others by tanker trucks. If the ship was fitted with heating coils the ship had its own pipelines and designated pumps Later they had a circulating system where the oil was continuously pumped around heating coils separate for the tank. Cleaning this tank was an easy process. The coils were a pain to clean and lots of dunnage was used if the dry cargo was loaded. It is a long time ago since I was down the "coast" so I may be a bit off with these explanations. The tanks were of various sizes and the heating was not needed for groundnut oil (peanut)


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## Stephen J. Card

I guess you couldn't lower a butterworth jet down there?


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## Captain Moki

WendyJ said:


> Would appreciate any advice on anywhere that I can find records (preferably online) of application for Mate certification for someone who would have gone through this process between about 1935 and 1955. I know that they first went to sea in 1932, were a cabin boy in 1933 and were 1st Mate when they died at sea in 1956. I have their DOB, full name and discharge number. Looks like the records would be in BT318 but a search on the National Archives site did not reveal anything useful...


Hi Wendy, I am an 86 year old Master Mariner (retired ) We could go different routes to achieve the and pass the examinations/ I will explain my own and then give you the alternatives. 1. I passed an exam for a scholarship to Hull Trinity Houser Navigation School and studied maritime needs for 3 years.1948 to 1950. 
2. I then spent 4 years in Tatems of Cardiff learning the practical needs of the ship I served on. (different ships different long spices was a saying then This was a requirement to sit for the second mates certificate of competency.) All certificates to Master was marked in London within the commonwealth as you could sit these in any commonwealth Country/ i.e. I sat for Mates and then Masters in New Zealand. When in the UKI the had it registered in my Masters Certificate through the Shipping Office /. I was determined to be the best Officer I could be by serving on many types of vessels possible in my lifetime .All Certificates were numbered and mine was NZ 2047.My exam papers sent for marking in London Through the NZ Marine Department. I should indicate to you that after 2nd. Mate a period of 2 years sea time was needed to sit for !st. Mates Certificate of Competency Then 18 Months sea time to sit for Masters. I served on all types of vessels in the coal trade. Iron ore ships General cargo, freezer, ,tankers tugs. and passenger vessels. This involved Mediterranean ,Asian ,Australia and. New Zealand Trades including Pacific Islands Also Americas and UK trades. In my latter years I trained as a Fishing Master also. I have in my turn trained many seafarers including fishermen Throughout the world as a teacher holding workshops for the United Nations FAO .. 
3 I have sailed with deckhands who have done it the hard way serving as deck boys and AB. who have achieved Masters Certificate I have great respect for these gentlemen..
I come from a large sea faring family who have become engineers, Superintendents . Masters. and Royal Nany Personnel. You only really need the Masters certificate number with name and date as you have to prove sea time to the examining authority before you can sit the exams. These results are given to the shipping offices in the uk. When the Countries became independent they followed the UK practices and standards usually.. However the discharge books were discontinued and supplanted with papers signed by ships masters and local shipping offices superintendents to support sea time needs.
I trust I have given all the info you need. But am will in to assist you further should you require it. Best Wishes. Captain Ken Middleton (retired). .


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## jmcg

Excellent post Cap. Ken. It should be of enormous help to the OP

BW

J


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## Akaroa




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## Akaroa

Akaroa said:


> View attachment 688995


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## Akaroa

Any more details re tug Skandia please (at Kingston?)
my writing on card , first photo think managed to send?!
Hope gets through! John R.


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