# Wind Power



## jazz606 (Jan 21, 2007)

If it is feasible to build lots of wind turbines to generate electricity in order to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Isn't it time that we put some serious research into wind powered vessels. I'm not talking about sail training ships or tea clipper replicas but proper wind driven commercial vessels. With weather forecasting and satellite technology at it's current level it should be possible to route sailing vessels very efficiently minimise the unpredictability feared and loathed by bean counters.

This is probably an old debate but given the current concerns about carbon emissions peak oil etc etc. A smart country would get ahead of the game by developing this alternative technology now rather than being forced to do it in a climate of crisis. But maybe we're not a smart country anymore.


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## Duncan112 (Dec 28, 2006)

What happened to the "Walker Wingsail" and its relatives in the mid/late 80's - remember seeing a few Japanese coasters with them but nothing recently.

Flettner Rotodyne might be another technology whose time has come?

Feel that wind will always be need to be supplemented by power unless we do away with our current fascination with Just in Time systems.

Duncan


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

Hi,

I recently saw pictures of a kite assisted vessel project. It may be difficult to develop a wind powered/assisted ship when we don't know what is happening to our climate & if the planetary pressure system should become badly affected. However, it would be wonderful to see, or even be part of, a return to the great days of sail, even if completely modernised. My grand-dad was a sailmaker!

Tony.


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## jazz606 (Jan 21, 2007)

What sailing ships would look like now if there had been no transfer to steam. No doubt they would have continued to develop. A partial (at least) return to wind power is desirable. I remember the kite idea - that could work - not much good to windward though. 

There is quite a lot of stuff on the web - do a search under SKYSAILS - and a good article here in New Scientist.


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## Naviguesser (Jan 20, 2007)

jazz606 said:


> If it is feasible to build lots of wind turbines to generate electricity in order to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Isn't it time that we put some serious research into wind powered vessels. I'm not talking about sail training ships or tea clipper replicas but proper wind driven commercial vessels. With weather forecasting and satellite technology at it's current level it should be possible to route sailing vessels very efficiently minimise the unpredictability feared and loathed by bean counters.
> 
> This is probably an old debate but given the current concerns about carbon emissions peak oil etc etc. A smart country would get ahead of the game by developing this alternative technology now rather than being forced to do it in a climate of crisis. But maybe we're not a smart country anymore.


The reason I don't think that would work is that with today's business climate (re: "just in time" shipping) most companies would pay a premium for the dependable service of the current type of commercial ship. That, plus how are you going to do it? Do you mean a sailing ship? Mounting wind turbines on the ship itself? I personally think this is the ticket:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor

http://www.romawa.nl/nereus/gasturbine.html


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## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

jazz606 said:


> If it is feasible to build lots of wind turbines to generate electricity in order to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Isn't it time that we put some serious research into wind powered vessels.


At the risk of offending enthusiastic environmentalist members, I suggest that it is not economically feasible to build wind turbines. The British Government has insisted that power utilities take a growing proportion of electricity from sources other than fossil fuels. Until new atomic power stations and other major projects like the Severn Barrage are built the only easy answer to this political requirement is to build cosmetic wind turbines. 

The owners receive a substantial subsidy to operate wind turbines and they are also paid for the electricity they occasionally generate. I understand that the government annual target is for them to produce electricity 25% of the time. Many are failing to meet this target, but they are still profitable because of the subsidy. This cost is met by higher electricity bills to all UK consumers. The wind turbines are so unreliable that there is an operational requirement that they have 100% fossil fuel generator back-up at all times.

Various attempts to apply wind technology to ships have also had full conventional power back-up. This will always be the case to meet SOLAS standards. The cost of the wind powered systems has not yet been justified by the fuel savings made. I am sure that like all technology, wind technology will improve its efficiency in the future. I am sure that continuing research is essential. It is likely that fossil fuel demand from China, India, etc will increase fuel prices. At some point the two curves are likely to cross and wind could become a viable supplementary power source. Until that point is reached, the way forward seems to be to use still larger ships with even better engines to obtain lower fuel consumption per ton carried.

Fred(Thumb)


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## Steve Woodward (Sep 4, 2006)

Not eactly a comercial enterprise but several years ago a catamaran was converted to wind power with a huge windmill with a bigger diameter than the beam of the boat. True she could sail dead into the wind which was actually her fastest point of sailing with the forward speed of the boat increasing the relative wind over the wind turbine, the turbine fed power via shafting to a single prop.
In trials with a similar boat with conventional sails she was trounced - except dead to windward when the conventional boat had to tack thus covering a far greater distance, she then just beat the wind turbine boat which had drawbacks as risk of decapitating crew on deck, ect.

Steve W


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## David Davies (Dec 11, 2006)

As boy in the 30s I remember seeing in Mecano Magazine a photo of a German ship which had two high towers containing vertical converluted wind driven impellors geared to a propeller and I believe she crossed the Atlantic. During the 60s there was a well known slightly eccentric yactsman on the river Orwell who was obsessed with a similar device but on a much smaller scale. His problem was running before the wind he outran the apparent wind and stopped but going to windward the apparent wind got stronger and stronger and the boat got faster and faster or so he said. I don't know how he progressed with his project but he dropped out of the scene (some said he was last seen passing the Galloper at 30knots)


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## Duncan112 (Dec 28, 2006)

Some information and a picture of the flettner ship referrred to in mine and David's posts can be found here:

http://www.tecsoc.org/pubs/history/2002/may9.htm

Fred's comments regarding the reliability and economics of wind turbines are entirely true, I would prefer the development of small scale hydro plants. Sadly the ear of the government is held by those with a vested interest in the construction and operation of these eyesores.

Duncan


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

I live at a major constriction point on the Welsh side of the Bristol Channel about 20 miles down stream of the probable barrage if actually constructed. I am concerned about the effect that barrage might have in respect of tidal heights, volumes & currents in the area as well of movements of sands & gravels on the sea-bed. In particular I have concerns that the effective truncation of the channel may reduce the effect of the tides & reduce the generative potential of the barrage turbines. There is a plan of sorts to construct a half-tide circular barrage in Swansea Bay with in-built turbines which would apparently not affect tidal patterns in any way. I am advised that full modelling has been completed for all barrage systems in the Bristol Channel but have been unable to access them.

I would myself favour state of the art nuclear generation together with hydro-electric storage systems if they could be proven to be feasible.

Any experts out there?

Tony


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## tunatownshipwreck (Nov 9, 2005)

Researchers here are about to install two wave generators on the Oregon coast to see how much power they can generate.


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