# Two seamen dead after a rescue bid on a pirate mother ship



## borderreiver

See= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17195162

How long have us seamen must suffer. Still believe in the big gun. Like in the time of nelson.


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## n. liddell (sparks)

saw a video some months ago showing how the Russians deal with them - they put them back in their boat and blew it up - except for one who they sent back to tell his mates what happenned - they won't be doing that again in a hurry


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## chadburn

I read that the Italian Liner that has broken down carries armed Civilian Guard's.


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## John Rogers

chadburn said:


> I read that the Italian Liner that has broken down carries armed Civilian Guard's.


Not so Chief,they are Military from the Infantry unit that cant shoot straight.[=P]


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## Malky Glaister

Italian guns only dropped once!!

regards Malky


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## Mad Landsman

chadburn said:


> I read that the Italian Liner that has broken down carries armed Civilian Guard's.


Info from the Italian press as I wrote on the relevant thread:
'The Ship carries a team of Italian Marine riflemen from the Regiment San Marco engaged on anti-piracy service.'

They (Italian media) were also happy to draw attention to the fact that guys from the same unit (on another ship) managed to accidentally shoot some fishermen.


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## chadburn

John Rogers said:


> Not so Chief,they are Military from the Infantry unit that cant shoot straight.[=P]


Yes, I stand corrected(Sad)


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## pensioner

If these stories are correct I can see some useless legal eagle sharpening their pencil and checking how much their share of the compensation will be when they sue the company's for infringing the human rights of those poor pirates who are only going about their innocent work.
Regards


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## Nick Batstone

John Rogers said:


> Not so Chief,they are Military from the Infantry unit that cant shoot straight.[=P]


That'll be full astern then (When they fix the engine)


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## cueball44

n. liddell (sparks) said:


> saw a video some months ago showing how the Russians deal with them - they put them back in their boat and blew it up - except for one who they sent back to tell his mates what happenned - they won't be doing that again in a hurry


You could say "That is the only language they understand". But unfortunately they are just like cockroaches, they keep returning. Maybe they could be targeted with drones before they set off once their base is located.


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## jamesgpobog

This is not a bad answer...


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## Aberdonian

jamesgpobog said:


> This is not a bad answer...


".......To the Shores of Tripoli."

How about the USMC?

They have done it before.

Heed the call.....

Aberdonian


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## jamesgpobog

Aberdonian said:


> ".......To the Shores of Tripoli."
> 
> How about the USMC?
> 
> They have done it before.
> 
> Heed the call.....
> 
> Aberdonian


That works too...


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## Satanic Mechanic

n. liddell (sparks) said:


> saw a video some months ago showing how the Russians deal with them - they put them back in their boat and blew it up - except for one who they sent back to tell his mates what happenned - they won't be doing that again in a hurry


Just so as you know - it wasn't true - they did sink it but no one was on board.

Of course I suppose they could have if they wanted to - but that would have made every single russian seaman a dead cert target (pun intentional)


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## Satanic Mechanic

of course you could solve the problem - return peace to the area and stop everyone and the ships cat nicking all the fish - just a thought


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## trotterdotpom

Do you really think they'd go back to fishing after the comparitively easy life of a pirate? 

John T


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## Satanic Mechanic

trotterdotpom said:


> Do you really think they'd go back to fishing after the comparitively easy life of a pirate?
> 
> John T


Well they would have a viable and sustainable alternative - at the moment they have sweet bugger all - not really an excuse for piracy mark you but the choices are a bit limited at the moment. Plus of course a stable Somalia would mean it could actively police the problem - something noticably absent at present.


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## Derek Roger

Give your head a Good shake SM,. You have being talking trivel for the last while on this site .Try and and leave it to those who have a lot more than you .


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## Satanic Mechanic

Derek Roger said:


> Give your head a Good shake SM,. You have being talking trivel for the last while on this site .Try and and leave it to those who have a lot more than you .


Yean yeah yeah - a guy suggests trying to cure the problem at source - usual pishy reply

Dime Bar


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## trotterdotpom

Satanic Mechanic said:


> Well they would have a viable and sustainable alternative - at the moment they have sweet bugger all - not really an excuse for piracy mark you but the choices are a bit limited at the moment. Plus of course a stable Somalia would mean it could actively police the problem - something noticably absent at present.


A nice idea. Why don't you go there and explain it to them?

John T


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## Satanic Mechanic

trotterdotpom said:


> A nice idea. Why don't you go there and explain it to them?
> 
> John T


Bugger off - its soddin dangerous there!!!!(Jester)



Actually on a slightly serious note - while it is a bit towards the Utopian to think we can bring peace to Somalia - in recent years we have had a 0% success rate in every attempt elsewhere we have got involved - to my mind the only effective solution to rid that part of the world of pirates is for Somalia to get some sort of stability in order to deal with the problem from within and to be able to carry out a bit of hearts and minds in the area - where understandably the pirates are seen as something like folk heroes at the moment. Between mercenaries, pirates, navies, yahoos and out and out nutjobs it is rapidly becoming like the wild west out there - I just cant see any winners as it is I'm afraid. Needs a bit of a new approach - what that is I'm not sure though.


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## jamesgpobog

Satanic Mechanic said:


> Bugger off - its soddin dangerous there!!!!(Jester)
> 
> 
> 
> Actually on a slightly serious note - while it is a bit towards the Utopian to think we can bring peace to Somalia - in recent years we have had a 0% success rate in every attempt elsewhere we have got involved - to my mind the only effective solution to rid that part of the world of pirates is for Somalia to get some sort of stability in order to deal with the problem from within and to be able to carry out a bit of hearts and minds in the area - where understandably the pirates are seen as something like folk heroes at the moment. Between mercenaries, pirates, navies, yahoos and out and out nutjobs it is rapidly becoming like the wild west out there - I just cant see any winners as it is I'm afraid. Needs a bit of a new approach - what that is I'm not sure though.


I would be quite content letting them butcher each other, and then, whenever we run into them out at sea, we butcher them there.


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## trotterdotpom

"carry out a bit of hearts and minds in the area - where understandably the pirates are seen as something like folk heroes at the moment."

Good idea, SM, let us know when you get there and we'll have an SN whipround to pay your ransom.

John T


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## Satanic Mechanic

trotterdotpom said:


> "carry out a bit of hearts and minds in the area - where understandably the pirates are seen as something like folk heroes at the moment."
> 
> Good idea, SM, let us know when you get there and we'll have an SN whipround to pay your ransom.
> 
> John T


No thats not fair, I only make a comment on what seems to be the heart of the problem. These nutjobs are pulling in money, courtesy of us, into an otherwise war torn hell hole - if you were living there and had been brought up to believe that the west was extremely rich and didnt care about you - how would you view them? This is an extremely serious point not just a bit of counter arguement. This is the very sort of situation that is the genesis for so many problems that we face today and an absolute breeding ground for extremism of every kind.

Now make no mistake - I have no time for pirates in any way shape or form, they most definitely are not my folk hero Robin Hood types but I am far from convinced that using the big hammer is the way forward - it just sets us up for yet another conflict later. 

I am also at pains to point out that I am not 100% sure what the right way is but I do think it must involve a stable Somalia


Edit: By way of an interesting point -Just got this of the dreaded Wikipedia - so I wont take it as gospel but it does highlight a much bigger problem, the fact that in general pirates are actually pretty good for the local communities in a way that governments and foreign powers most certainly have not been. Again I am not saying piracy is good but in order to truly get rid of it once and for all you have to offer an viable alternative (other than the ever popular life or death one) and maintain the positive effects the pirates have provided ashore - not least of all the ability to catch fish.

"There have been both positive and negative effects of the pirates' economic success. Local residents have complained that the presence of so many armed men makes them feel insecure, and that their free spending ways cause wild fluctuations in the local exchange rate. Others fault them for excessive consumption of alcoholic beverages and khat.[87]

On the other hand, many other residents appreciate the rejuvenating effect that the pirates' on-shore spending and re-stocking has had on their impoverished towns, a presence which has often provided jobs and opportunity when there were none. Entire hamlets have in the process been transformed into veritable boomtowns, with local shop owners and other residents using their gains to purchase items such as generators -- "allowing full days of electricity, once an unimaginable luxury."[91]

Local fishermen in the Malindi area of Kenya to the south have reported their largest catches in forty years, catching hundreds of kilos of fish and earning fifty times the average daily wage as a result. They attribute the recent abundance of marine stock to the pirates scaring away the foreign fishing trawlers, which it is claimed have for decades deprived local dhows of a livelihood. Marine biologists agree, saying that the indicators are that the local fishery is recovering because of the lack of commercial scale fishing.[92]

The Somali piracy appears to have a positive impact on the problem of overfishing in Somali waters by foreign vessels, as a comparison has been made with the situation in Tanzania further to the south, which suffers from the same problem, and also lacks the means to enforce the protection and regulation of its territorial waters. There, the catches have dropped to dramatic low levels, whereas in Somalia they have risen back to more acceptable levels since the beginning of the piracy"


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## RayJordandpo

"_not really an excuse for piracy mark you but the choices are a bit limited at the moment._ "

Not REALLY an excuse for piracy. I think that is the most crassest statement I've ever read on Ships Nostalgia. "You gonna show us your medals mister" runs it a close second


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## Satanic Mechanic

RayJordandpo said:


> "_not really an excuse for piracy mark you but the choices are a bit limited at the moment._ "
> 
> Not REALLY an excuse for piracy. I think that is the most crassest statement I've ever read on Ships Nostalgia. "You gonna show us your medals mister" runs it a close second


Oh behave and stop looking for an interpretation to moan about - I have stated on every occasion that I do not support pirates. If you dont like the phraseology or use of idiomatic English even within context thats not my fault.

I like to look at where the problem lies - fix the problem not the symptoms - there is nothing wrong with that and to be honest it would be nice to actually get an engaging debate for once instead of bloody semantics.


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## trotterdotpom

I'm sure the hostages that they're still holding will be relieved to hear the positive effects of piracy.

I seem to remember a hearts and minds policy in that area few years back when the world gave them food. Most of it ended up in the hands of various 'warlords'.

Sadly, it looks like there's only one way to bring the situation to an end!The only thing they understand.

John T


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## King Ratt

For those of you who have not seen the clip of how the Russians deal with these criminals; here is the URL.

http://true-turtle.livejournal.com/85315.html


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## Satanic Mechanic

King Ratt said:


> For those of you who have not seen the clip of how the Russians deal with these criminals; here is the URL.
> 
> http://true-turtle.livejournal.com/85315.html


Oh God not again


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## Satanic Mechanic

trotterdotpom said:


> I'm sure the hostages that they're still holding will be relieved to hear the positive effects of piracy.
> 
> I seem to remember a hearts and minds policy in that area few years back when the world gave them food. Most of it ended up in the hands of various 'warlords'.
> 
> Sadly, it looks like there's only one way to bring the situation to an end!The only thing they understand.
> 
> John T


For freakin crying out loud - of course the bloody hostages couldn't care less - they want two things and that is to be out of there and be alive - in general we can guarantee one of those things!!

I am talking about why there are pirates in the first place - easy one really - money. But they also bring benefits to the local community and as such have support ashore. Rightly or wrongly they are seen as bringing an economy to the area and being responsible for helping the fishermen.
Compare that as to what we have offered them in the past - more war and killing. So we kill the pirates put the area back into the stoneage and what do we have - yet more enemies. I mean this approach has not worked once in my lifetime - why is it going to work this time?

All I want is to rid the oceans of pirates while not actually going around killing everyone - I honestly believe this approach ultimately always fails. 

I do not have sympathy for pirates, but I do try and see where they are coming from - these are different things and I politely ask that people refrain from accusing me of being a sympathiser - I am not.


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## trotterdotpom

I would politely reply that I haven't accused you of being a sympathiser with the pirates. 
I would also politely remind you that among the benefits that the pirates bring to their communities is total lawlessness that probably includes rape and murder of their own people. There might even be a lot of locals who would welcome some foreign intervention.

John T.


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## Satanic Mechanic

trotterdotpom said:


> I would politely reply that I haven't accused you of being a sympathiser with the pirates.
> I would also politely remind you that among the benefits that the pirates bring to their communities is total lawlessness that probably includes rape and murder of their own people. There might even be a lot of locals who would welcome some foreign intervention.
> 
> John T.


No I was talking about posters in general.

I bet the hostages just cant wait to find out which nationality shot up a pirate this time - vervently hoping it wasn't their nationality.

I am pretty sure that they had rape murder and total lawlessness anyway - but now they have it with a few benefits as well.

I am absolutely sure they would like some foreign intervention as long as it does not involve shooting everyone and enables them to build on the benefits they have. 

We could offer them patrol craft and assistance to stop illegal fishing, maybe a port facility to freeze the fish for export - its a shame we didnt do it years ago before piracy became so established so sadly violence becomes the much more likely solution and I honestly believe that it is ultimately in no ones interests.


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## R870879

You forgot to mention the illegal dumping of toxic waste off their coast by other countries, contaminating and destroying their fish stocks and ultimately their livelyhoods.


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## RayJordandpo

Satanic Mechanic said:


> Oh behave and stop looking for an interpretation to moan about - I have stated on every occasion that I do not support pirates. If you dont like the phraseology or use of idiomatic English even within context thats not my fault.
> 
> I like to look at where the problem lies - fix the problem not the symptoms - there is nothing wrong with that and to be honest it would be nice to actually get an engaging debate for once instead of bloody semantics.


I'm not moaning mate, you state you do not support piracy but it is pretty obvious to me that you actually do. To blame lack of fishing is no excuse for murder and piracy on the high seas. Hundreds if not thousands of British fishermen lost their livelihoods in the seventies but they did not resort to rape and killing. To blame piracy on lost fishing is simply no excuse. Like to bet if everybody said 'Yes! Somali pirates have a good reason to turn to theft and murder because of lost fishing you would say "no they don't" If the Somalis feel so agrieved about other nationality trawlers taking their fishing grounds why don't they target them and leave ships alone who are simply going about their lawful business. The world would be in an even more sorry state if everyone resorted to murder because they lost their job


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## ART6

At great personal risk, I have to say that I agree with SM's posts in general. The problem of Somalian piracy is not going to be solved by intercepting them at sea as the Indian ocean, as we all know, is a very big place. It isn't going to be solved by the "Let's shoot the buggers" brigade, even though that is an enticing solution. It isn't going to be solved by invading Somalia and doing a Libya on them, since they have no recognisable government in the first place.

Having said that, I freely confess that I have no idea what the solution is since I am not a statesman. I just feel that the solution has to be in some form of stabilisation in the Somalian mainland. Maybe a concerted effort by the African and Western nations to teach them how to grow a civilised society and government and provide them with the financial aid to achieve it, and do it with due regard to their religious leanings?

Trade is what grows societies, and perhaps that is what assistance should concentrate on. What could Somalia produce? Fish and fish products? If so, help them to develop a modern fishing industry. Send in geologists to discover if they have minerals and metals that they could sell profitably. Let's face it, no-one even managed to run a corner shop successfully until they learned how to!


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## Satanic Mechanic

RayJordandpo said:


> I'm not moaning mate, you state you do not support piracy but it is pretty obvious to me that you actually do. To blame lack of fishing is no excuse for murder and piracy on the high seas. Hundreds if not thousands of British fishermen lost their livelihoods in the seventies but they did not resort to rape and killing. To blame piracy on lost fishing is simply no excuse. Like to bet if everybody said 'Yes! Somali pirates have a good reason to turn to theft and murder because of lost fishing you would say "no they don't" If the Somalis feel so agrieved about other nationality trawlers taking their fishing grounds why don't they target them and leave ships alone who are simply going about their lawful business. The world would be in an even more sorry state if everyone resorted to murder because they lost their job



Ok that has to be the most contrived post ever. I am not blaming it on just the fishing - but it is a part of it, so is the civil war, the famine , the poverty, the fact the place is so lawless that they can get away with it - its all part of the big picture.

In case you haven't noticed they have targetted the fishing boats, hence the increase in locals catches. 

My one and only point is that piracy to an extent is giving the locals what they have been denied for a very long time- an economy, their fishing back, a feeling of self determination. If you want to defeat piracy at its source you have to give the population a way of attaining all that without the need to commit to piracy, or even better an ability to exceed all that without the piracy. What you dont want to do is to rip that back off them with violence.


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## Satanic Mechanic

R870879 said:


> You forgot to mention the illegal dumping of toxic waste off their coast by other countries, contaminating and destroying their fish stocks and ultimately their livelyhoods.


Correct - that didn't help either.


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## Long gone

ART6 said:


> At great personal risk, I have to say that I agree with SM's posts in general. The problem of Somalian piracy is not going to be solved by intercepting them at sea as the Indian ocean, as we all know, is a very big place. It isn't going to be solved by the "Let's shoot the buggers" brigade, even though that is an enticing solution. It isn't going to be solved by invading Somalia and doing a Libya on them, since they have no recognisable government in the first place.
> 
> Having said that, I freely confess that I have no idea what the solution is since I am not a statesman. *I just feel that the solution has to be in some form of stabilisation in the Somalian mainland. Maybe a concerted effort by the African and Western nations to teach them how to grow a civilised society and government and provide them with the financial aid to achieve it, and do it with due regard to their religious leanings?*
> 
> Trade is what grows societies, and perhaps that is what assistance should concentrate on. What could Somalia produce? Fish and fish products? If so, help them to develop a modern fishing industry. Send in geologists to discover if they have minerals and metals that they could sell profitably. Let's face it, no-one even managed to run a corner shop successfully until they learned how to!


There is an African Union force in Somalia now; they have managed to clear most of Mogadishu, and, believe it or not, normality seems to be returning


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## Satanic Mechanic

Long gone said:


> There is an African Union force in Somalia now; they have managed to clear most of Mogadishu, and, believe it or not, normality seems to be returning


I never knew that - lets hope its a start


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## RayJordandpo

I cannot see how these pirates can possibly blame loss of fishing grounds as a valid reason to resort to murder and rape. I also cannot see them returning to the relatively quiet life as a fisherman after tasting the spoils of their ill gotten gains. Yes I agree that it is a very complicated situation caused by many different factors i.e. Warlords, lawlessness in Somalia etc. etc. and of course loss of fishing grounds, dumping of waste and so on. These people are very well organised, not only are ex fishermen involved but also ex military personnel, computer experts, agents etc. I sincerely hope that the situation will change soon and I fully agree that getting to the root cause if definitely a big step in the right direction. But (and it is a very big BUT) at the moment they are a threat to life and if all they know is violence then we should retaliate in the same way.


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## Satanic Mechanic

RayJordandpo said:


> I cannot see how these pirates can possibly blame loss of fishing grounds as a valid reason to resort to murder and rape. I also cannot see them returning to the relatively quiet life as a fisherman after tasting the spoils of their ill gotten gains. Yes I agree that it is a very complicated situation caused by many different factors i.e. Warlords, lawlessness in Somalia etc. etc. and of course loss of fishing grounds, dumping of waste and so on. These people are very well organised, not only are ex fishermen involved but also ex military personnel, computer experts, agents etc. I sincerely hope that the situation will change soon and I fully agree that getting to the root cause if definitely a big step in the right direction. But (and it is a very big BUT) at the moment they are a threat to life and if all they know is violence then we should retaliate in the same way.


They dont - its just part of the problem.

As for shooting them up - well...............

I could be wrong here, but from memory when this started off the captured crews were reasonably treated and no one was getting hurt except the companies, insurers etc. There has been a progressive increase in violence then each side has upped the ante - so we are now in the delightful position that crews are now in genuine danger and we have an area of Ocean that is like the wild west. It looks to me like the old arms esculation thang again and with each step up in violence there is a reciprical from the other side. It just seems mental to me that instead of looking at the problem the first thing we do is to start a bloody arms war, I honestly cannot think of one occasion that this has been a successful strategy, from Ireland to Israel, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc etc etc.

I am however all in favour of passive protection for ships - convoys for example. I consider that a much more efficient way of preventing attacks and thereby removing their income source. Maybe a wee bit of fishery protection could assist as well - carrot and stick. Just a few thoughts thats all


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## woodend

Bit off thread but I like the vibe that is shown!


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## Andrew Craig-Bennett

When I was six, my parents had a guest in the spare room for a couple of weeks. He was very interesting to me because he had a black beard and tatoos and knew all about ships and the sea. 

He was in fact a matelot off an RN ship on anti-piracy patrol and he was in the spare bedroom because he had been landed to the hospital in Mogadishu with acute appendicitis. Dad who was ex RN himself was the British Council representative in what in 1959 was a very pleasant place for a small boy to be.

And I'm afraid that titbit - that anti-piracy patrols were routine off the coast in the 50's - is as much as I can usefully contribute to the discussion, other than we had a ship pirated a couple of years back and that put me in touch with the interesting (and almost without exception British) people who provide armed guards, negotiate with the pirates and deliver the ransoms. One thing they all said was that the Somalis are highly intelligent people, but like most people from a nomadic background they are much more interested in business than in farming.


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## jamesgpobog

Satanic Mechanic said:


> They dont - its just part of the problem.
> 
> As for shooting them up - well...............
> 
> I could be wrong here, but from memory when this started off the captured crews were reasonably treated and no one was getting hurt except the companies, insurers etc. There has been a progressive increase in violence then each side has upped the ante - so we are now in the delightful position that crews are now in genuine danger and we have an area of Ocean that is like the wild west. It looks to me like the old arms esculation thang again and with each step up in violence there is a reciprical from the other side. It just seems mental to me that instead of looking at the problem the first thing we do is to start a bloody arms war, I honestly cannot think of one occasion that this has been a successful strategy, from Ireland to Israel, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc etc etc.
> 
> I am however all in favour of passive protection for ships - convoys for example. I consider that a much more efficient way of preventing attacks and thereby removing their income source. Maybe a wee bit of fishery protection could assist as well - carrot and stick. Just a few thoughts thats all



I'm going to try to illuminate the reason for why I generally tend to be a 'big stick' guy rather than a 'carrot-and-stick' guy.

I am of the opinion that when all boils down, we are dealing with some of the absolute basics of Humanity, our natural condition, the very stuff we are made of and hard wired for.

Unfortunately, I think that is violence. I think History proves that. Yet I think there is also a quality of free will as to what we do with, or how we choose to use that violence.

It's part of the ancient philosophical problem of Good vs. Evil, and here's how I have decided to deal with the problem.

I am quite willing to live and let live....up to a point. There is a line (though I'm not sure I can clearly define where it is) that if crossed, requires that I go into 'Angel Of Death' mode. Before that time comes, no one on the planet has a single thing to fear from me.

This is where the conflict comes in about the response to a threat, Pacifism (here in the widest, broadest sense) and Mortal Combat (NOT the video game).

As I see it, here is the failing of Pacifism: There will ALWAYS be someone who hates you for nothing more than you exist, and there's not a godam thing you can do about it. Their reason for existence is to destroy YOU personally. No reason, no logic, no negotiation, you must die.

In many cases I think that is where we are with the bad guys today like pirates and radical Islamist terrorists. There is nothing, zero we can offer them or talk them into to stop. They do what they do because that is who they are, it is their nature. It would be easier to talk a dog into becoming a cat.


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## RCHARLTON

Interesting piece on the decline of Somali Piracy in recent months.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/0...be-ending-for-somali-pirates/?test=latestnews


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## joebuckham

Derek Roger said:


> Give your head a Good shake SM,. You have being talking trivel for the last while on this site .Try and and leave it to those who have a lot more than you .


derek, i think it's time you got a grip me old china, or tell us which dictionary you got your definition of debate from.

best regards

joe


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## Robert Hilton

RayJordandpo said:


> "_not really an excuse for piracy mark you but the choices are a bit limited at the moment._ "
> 
> Not REALLY an excuse for piracy. I think that is the most crassest statement I've ever read on Ships Nostalgia. "You gonna show us your medals mister" runs it a close second


But Satanic is more thoughtful, writes better English and is even more entertaining.


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## chadburn

RCHARLTON said:


> Interesting piece on the decline of Somali Piracy in recent months.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/0...be-ending-for-somali-pirates/?test=latestnews


I think most of the people on the Site thought that it was bleeding obvious how the problem should be tackled, even the local's (barring for the "Pirates") are happy to get back to near normal in their village's. Hostage's were/are not safe and neither were/are they looked after when the "Pirate's" are made aware that some Shipowner's had abandoned both ship's and Crew's to their fate. There does not appear to be any problem's with the so called "Logistic's" as long as the Docking Countries are made aware of the weapon's being carried in good time.


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## ben27

hy n.liddel(sparks).29 feb.2012.01:00.re:two seaman dead.i am not a fan of the russians,but i give them a well done for positive action on behalf of all who sail the seas,again i say arm the crews who travell in pirate waters.and follow the russian example,have a good day.ben27


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