# Steamy Stuff



## internalfire

Don't know how much interest there is on steam stuff but for the last two years the museum (Internal Fire Museum of Power in Wales) has been busy installing a number of steam engines including some marine.

Already running are a large Browett & Lindley compound, one of 4 originally installed in HMS Tiger (1913) for DC generation and we believe the only operating prime mover still operating from Jutland.

Also a nice little 100hp Simpson & Strickland triple expansion from a Bristol tug.

As we live on site the current lockdown is not stopping us working although we are cutting back on work that involves any risk for obvious reasons. 

The current project is a replica paddle wheel on the John Penn 1879 oscillating twin, ex-PS Empress. She was to have been the featured engine for Easter but will be running later in the year when things improve. She has steamed but we decided we needed the flywheel effect that the wheel will give.

Hope the pics are of interest
Paul


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## Varley

They are indeed. Thank you.


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## Duncan112

Looks fantastic Paul, hopefully will get down once all this is over.


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## Burntisland Ship Yard

Excellent pictures Paul, will be on my bucket list to visit !


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## eddyw

Excellent ! Ah, the renowned "Empress", star of David Lean's film of "Great Expectations" (1946).
https://www.paddlesteamers.org/feat...mpress-arrives-on-medway-28th-september-1945/
Her final trip;
http://www.kingswearcastle.co.uk/Empress1.htm


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## spongebob

Great Paul, keep them coming , brings to mind Bellis and Morcom, Tange, and others that slip my memory. These steam engines were the life blood of the NZ primary industry in the early days .

Bob


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## skilly57

And then somebody at Bellis & Morcom decided to convert their steam engine design to manufacture diesels. The B&M Standard 22 gave me nightmares for years! We would often leave port with 3 or 4 of them running, then arrive at the next port with only 1 left that hadn't failed. Used to drop exhaust valves & destroy governors like there was no tomorrow.


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## internalfire

We have 3 cylinder S5A Belliss in Hall 5, actually runs nicely.

Not long after we first opened a scruffy looking gent would come into reception, throw some cash on the desk and wonder off into the museum, once every couple weeks.

Happened to be in Hall 5 when he came in one day, he walked down to the Belliss, opened the gate, walked up to the engine and kicked it followed by a string of abuse that turned the air deep blue. Nodded at me and wondered off. This was repeated two weeks later.

Eventually he decided we were not complete idiots and decided to communicate over a coffee one morning. His name was Miles and he turned out to be a very competent engineer who could do just about anything. He volunteered for a number of years.

The Belliss hatred came when he was a 2nd and took a trip out to the far east on a ship with two S5A gensets which did nothing but overheat. The fact there were a dozen cylinder heads sat on the floor should have warned him. 

Sadly Miles passed away a few years ago but his stories (hours about Doxfords) and language live on, we had to hide him when visitors were in  Greatly missed.


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## internalfire

And a pic of our B & M compound, runs like a clock but HP packings are out at the moment, have to make replacements.


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## Dieselfitter

Never was one for 'hot fog' power, but these look fantastic!
Amazing pictures and will definitely visit once this madness has passed!


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## Tim Gibbs

internalfire said:


> We have 3 cylinder S5A Belliss in Hall 5, actually runs nicely.
> 
> Not long after we first opened a scruffy looking gent would come into reception, throw some cash on the desk and wonder off into the museum, once every couple week....
> .....Eventually he decided we were not complete idiots and decided to communicate over a coffee one morning. His name was Miles'.............
> Sadly Miles passed away a few years ago but his stories (hours about Doxfords) and language live on, we had to hide him when visitors were in  Greatly missed.


Paul - fantastic stuff! As soon as the madness is over I'll come to Wales find you and if you're really unlucky I start regaling you with my Doxford and Mirrlees Nasty Gas engines stories(Cloud) 
If you want a really big project how trying to get the Beamish Museum to part with their 58JS3 Doxford - it only weighs 105 tonnes(Jester)


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## internalfire

Dieselfitter said:


> Never was one for 'hot fog' power,


Plenty of diesels, Ruston is a 6VE genset in Hall 1 and the rather nice Allen is the only remaining S44 air-blast, going back together later this year.


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## internalfire

https://www.internalfire.com/pstat.php
Link above is to list of engines at the museum, the occasional video if you are really bored.


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## skilly57

Paul,
Attached photo shows our 3-cylinder, 80 kW B & M generator after the engine room had been exposed to the sunshine during the ship's scrapping in March 1985. The gen'r is upper left - sorry for the angle but the E.R. ladders had already been cut out so I couldn't get down to the plates. This machine was the most reliable of the 4 B&Ms we had onboard.

The three empty bedplates are where the B&M 22 Standard engines lived. The ship had diesel electric propulsion, with a 220vdc tandem generator on the front of each propulsion generator, so once at sea the 80 kW machine was shut down. Photos are not too good - it was a dark & oily environment. The 3rd engineer's backside disappearing into a crankcase to check a B.E. bearing is only to show relative size of the 22 Standard engine. Have horrible memories of governor's flying apart & codpieces flying around the engine room unannounced, the never-ending task of lapping in new valves & seats all the time, and the back-breaking hours spent scraping new big end bearings all the time.

Skilly


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## noelmavisk

*In regard to steam, I would be in remiss if I didn't mention I served my 5 year apprenticeship on steam engines. Not what you may be thinking though, I worked for Clarke Chapman's in Gateshead, who were builders of steam winches, windlasses, and capstans. I worked in the Windlass Bay. Surely one of these hard-working machines must be in a museum somewhere.
Funnily enough, my first ship in 1953 was a Sam-boat with a triple expansion steam engine but after that it was Diesel ships and I never saw steam again except from the Donkey-boiler.*


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## spongebob

Another little steam engine that comes to mind is the Stuart Turner built in Henley on Thames . Shackleton depended on one of these to power his generator while to ship was stuck on the ice.
They subsequently made small marine petrol engines that were widely used as auxiliary power for many NZ pleasure yachts until the post was diesels the likes of Yanmar came along as a modern substitute .

Bob


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## New Haven Neil

I can't recommend this museum enough, it is fantastic, anyone with any mechanical soul at all would love it. We have been twice, once with wife's family who are Allens, who were over the moon. As a one time mere fourth it was a memory trip for me too, although I had to turn away from the Paxman.....

Paul (I think it was he) was good enough to give us some of his time, his knowledge was incredible, and enthusiasm infectious. If we lived closer I would be there every weekend helping. 

So although it is a bit out of the way place please make the effort to go there and support them when things improve, it really is worth the effort.


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## jerome morris

Oh I would love to visit this museum. Beautiful stuff!
Too many miles away for me though.


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## colcur

noelmavisk said:


> *In regard to steam, I would be in remiss if I didn't mention I served my 5 year apprenticeship on steam engines. Not what you may be thinking though, I worked for Clarke Chapman's in Gateshead, who were builders of steam winches, windlasses, and capstans. I worked in the Windlass Bay. Surely one of these hard-working machines must be in a museum somewhere.
> Funnily enough, my first ship in 1953 was a Sam-boat with a triple expansion steam engine but after that it was Diesel ships and I never saw steam again except from the Donkey-boiler.*


My career was very similar to yours. I served an apprenticeship at the Sunderland Forge, building and repairing steam generators, winches and windlasses. went to sea at 20 years of age on motor ships and apart from a couple of steam boiler feed pumps, never again saw a steam engine. Honestly, never missed them.


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## sternchallis

colcur said:


> My career was very similar to yours. I served an apprenticeship at the Sunderland Forge, building and repairing steam generators, winches and windlasses. went to sea at 20 years of age on motor ships and apart from a couple of steam boiler feed pumps, never again saw a steam engine. Honestly, never missed them.


Yes my apprenticeship was similar, but repairing Trawlers on Hull Fish dock.
Got to work on the trawl winch, the steam side and the winch barrels as well in the workshop. Think they used to replace the bearings on the barrels. Also the steam windlass, main engine which was often a CD Holmes triple expansion, Gwnne pump with a single steam cylinder to drive it, Reader and Robey (I think) single and compound for the 110v dynamos, Boiler fan engine. Was in the crank pit of one ship scraping out main bearings after they removed them, skimmed the crankshaft and remettalled the bearings. That was real fitting that, engrs blue and taking leads.
I always wanted to work on the diesel trawlers though. Spent 10 years at sea on Motor, asked for some steam time, but dead mens shoes. After coming ashore spent 10 years inspecting boilers fire and water tube, mainly the former.
Internalfire:
Yes I think I will have to have a holiday in Wales, one of my gadjets lives in the Mumbles and works for the Svitzers as Chief.
Never come across a Bellis & Morcom, but knew of them in the steam form and as a gas engine I think.
A BOT aquaintenance put me wise to small steam museums South of Lincoln, they were steam pumps to keep the Fens drained.

We have such a heritage in invention and manufacture and so much goes under the hammer as scrap.
It is great that you have been able to find them and restore them. 

The Green and Red livery is much better than Sulzer washed out green or B&W cream.


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## david freeman

I remember my days at Constantine Tech Middlebrough, and its heat engine lab, the tests on the boiler and the compound steam engine, exhausting in to a condenser. Then I year later at South Shields Tech on phase 3 of the apprenticeship [alternative scheme] in the ocean road and westoe workshops-Here the only steam equipment I can recall, was a weirs single cylinder boiler feed pump.
I am not sure of turbine machines or pumps? maybe I am wrong.


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## david freeman

note blog# 15 Here you mention Clark Chapmans, and their deck machinery, here I remember the turbine driven capstans, quite a hunk of a machine in the 1960's on BP's supertankers. Are there any around in this modern era?


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## dannic

As second engineer on an elderly tanker with steam deck machinery, we had finished discharge in Birkinhead and were to go out to anchor, for at least a long weekend as no orders. 
Got phonecall down to engineroom from bridge, could I go up forward - 2nd mate had reported something broken between the steam bit and the hydraulics on the windlass!! So headed up there wondering what the....to find focsle wreathed in steam and lots of oil on deck, and 2nd mate still walking out port anchor! Obviously steam engine had cracked, but then had to do more damage to get anchor back up and lower starboard one. So weekend spent removing engine for landing and repair.
Good fun!
Dannic


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## spongebob

Steam , that was the real glory stuff for marine engineers for a long time, a lot longer than the glory time of ships Radio Officers that didn't quite span the 20th century . 
It's mostly gone now , internal combustion engines are now long rulers of the roost.
I remember my father , an electrical substation operator for most of his working life, saying ex marine chief engineers held all the top jobs in his State Hydro Electric Department . 
They were the superintendents of the coal fired power stations and also in charge of the hydro generators , electricity was the by product . Ex Marine chiefs were to be found heading up the engineering aspects of most of our freezing works, dairy factories and hospitals and a marine steam ticket was the one to get you to the grand ball.
That changed rapidly post war as steam was superseded ,at sea via the more efficient motor ships as well as on shore when natural gas and electrical energy replaced the coal and steamy stuff .
I worked on main engine overhauls on Loch class frigates, Bathurst class mine sweepers , Bird class sweepers , I could almost claim that scraping white metal bearings was the most common task over those training years but the bonus was the many short trips to sea for engine trials.
There was an awesome thrill in standing on the plates between the triple expansion engines of a Loch class at full speed of about 20 to 22 knots , the mind boggling sight of all those piston and valve rods thrashing up and down , the air moist with escaping steam vapour and the odour of soluble oil. 
Then on the tops to take indicator cards for the Dockyard engineer to determine how best screw a bit more out of the beast that was throbbing under the top plates.
My last experience was on the Bird class ship Tui which had been converted to a fleet auxiliary vessel , 12 to 13 knots tops 
but little invaisive noise and poetry in motion .
It was only a few weeks after that trial trip that I joined Rangitane with her twin six cylinder Doxford diesels , popular and respected engines ,but the noise and the smells, they could never compare,

Bob


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## dannic

spongebob said:


> Steam , that was the real glory stuff for marine engineers for a long time, a lot longer than the glory time of ships Radio Officers that didn't quite span the 20th century .
> It's mostly gone now , internal combustion engines are now long rulers of the roost.
> I remember my father , an electrical substation operator for most of his working life, saying ex marine chief engineers held all the top jobs in his State Hydro Electric Department .
> They were the superintendents of the coal fired power stations and also in charge of the hydro generators , electricity was the by product . Ex Marine chiefs were to be found heading up the engineering aspects of most of our freezing works, dairy factories and hospitals and a marine steam ticket was the one to get you to the grand ball.
> That changed rapidly post war as steam was superseded ,at sea via the more efficient motor ships as well as on shore when natural gas and electrical energy replaced the coal and steamy stuff .
> I worked on main engine overhauls on Loch class frigates, Bathurst class mine sweepers , Bird class sweepers , I could almost claim that scraping white metal bearings was the most common task over those training years but the bonus was the many short trips to sea for engine trials.
> There was an awesome thrill in standing on the plates between the triple expansion engines of a Loch class at full speed of about 20 to 22 knots , the mind boggling sight of all those piston and valve rods thrashing up and down , the air moist with escaping steam vapour and the odour of soluble oil.
> Then on the tops to take indicator cards for the Dockyard engineer to determine how best screw a bit more out of the beast that was throbbing under the top plates.
> My last experience was on the Bird class ship Tui which had been converted to a fleet auxiliary vessel , 12 to 13 knots tops
> but little evasive noise and poetry in motion .
> It was only a few weeks after that trial trip that I joined Rangitane with her twin six cylinder Doxford diesels , popular and respected engines ,but the noise and the smells, they could never compare,
> 
> Bob


When Dad came ashore in 1955, after being combined Chief with Benline then MacAndrews, job he got was with British Sugar Corporation, as the senior guy there would only employ former marine engineers, even tho he had to start back as shift fitter. Soon was back in driving seat and stayed until retirement.
Dannic.


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## Bill Morrison

*Kempton Park Steam Engine*

I saw a programme some years back about this set up and have found a link on YouTube. If you live in the London area, when hopefully things return to a semblance of normal it would be worth visiting.


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## spongebob

Thanks for that Bill, if I ever get to London again I would check that out .

Bob


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## Graham Wallace

Fabulous photos.

My first ship 1958) as a BP Marine Engineering Apprentice was a Doxford diesel with only one steam driven Engineroom jenny. Chief decide to reclaim leaking bunkers from a already partially flooded cofferdam- result total shutdown, water in all fuel lines, had to burn all and any wood in the Scotch boilers to keep Jenny running, what a shambles.

I only sailed steam vessels after that, left BP and sea in 1962 with a lowly Second's Steam Cert, no too sure how I passed with all those blasted triple expansion questions, lap/lead etc,etc.

Great memories

Graham

23 April; Looking back at my original posting I realised it was a real understatement. I had completed my Marine Engineering Apprenticeship with BP Tanker Co, served over my required seatime, sat my MOT Part B examination and passed. At 22 I was licenced with a Second's Steam Certificate, the world my oyster. Fifteen more months seatime, one more exam and I could have a Chief's ticket, unfortunately not to be, I had to leave the sea. Then four years of night school, AMI Mech E, MI Mech E, C Eng, Canadian PEng. A practical Engineer.... a Tribute to my time in the British Merchant Navy. In a few weeks I start my 82 year, I would not change anything, well maybe sail a triple expansion.
Graham


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## sternchallis

I can under stand Graham understanding Lap & Lead on steam engines, as an apprentice the old fitters would show you and it was like black magic at that age, setting tappets on a diesel I could understand.

Ref: Spongebob 24, Danic 25, yes I was under the impression that a Chief's Motor or Steam was the chance of a decent job ashore.

By the time I was looking for work in England a Degree in anything be it needlework seemed to be par for the course. Bosses that had come through uni and employment agencies had never heard of the Merchant Navy because at that point we didn't have one. IMarEng never registered with them either. It may have been different in ports but not inland.
The same happened with Class. Lloyds decided they wanted Graduates , so they recruited all these graduates, showed them a boiler and told them to crawl through that and survey it or jump into an oily dripping crankcase and it just wasn't in their DNA, they didn't have a clue what they were looking at and no experience to make a decision on a condition. 

Eventually Lloyds realised their mistake but then that decade during and after the demise of the MN and available Engineers had already found alternative employment. 
If it took say 10 years to train a Chief Engineer and make sure he had the required broad experience of many different engines, machinery and boilers, 
and could make correct decisions based on theory and practice, shadowing an experienced surveyor for 6 months is no substitute for 10 years on the job experience.


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## sternchallis

*PS Waverley gets new boilers*

http://mstat230.co.uk/service.php?s...00188003944511000000066250000464600004d872143

They must have been hard to source in England, I don't think we make steam boilers any more. Robey, B& E , Hartley & Sugden have probably long gone, and not sure about NEI either.
To say we led the world in Steam Boilers and Engines. I believe Spain still builds boilers but are not so good. Might be CE stamped, but thats not worth a lot today, unlike BS ???? ( used to know it, but long gone).


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## spongebob

Britain was strewn with fire tube boiler makers in the early sixties , Danks of Netherton, Edwin Danks of Oldbury, Cochrane of Annan, Robey of Lincoln, Spencer , Bonecourt & Clarkson , John Thompson , Allen Ignis , are some that comes to mind .
By the time I retired in 1994 Babcock had acquired Edwin Danks , Robey, SBC, and Allen Ignis under the mantle of Babcock Packaged Boilers while B&W had become a mere shadow of its former self .
Some of the money for such acquisitions came from selling the wholly owned Babcock Germany to the then Shah of Persia who craved ownership of fuel gobbling industries. 
Names like Babcock -Hitachi , Mitsubishi , etc horned in and little remains in Britain I believe .

Bob


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## sternchallis

I, yes remember Alln Ignis now, reverse flame boilers small package jobs for heating or steam for small laundries.
Thanks for that Bob, brough back a few names that had gone into the mists of time.


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## dannic

spongebob said:


> Britain was strewn with fire tube boiler makers in the early sixties , Danks of Netherton, Edwin Danks of Oldbury, Cochrane of Annan, Robey of Lincoln, Spencer , Bonecourt & Clarkson , John Thompson , Allen Ignis , are some that comes to mind .
> By the time I retired in 1994 Babcock had acquired Edwin Danks , Robey, SBC, and Allen Ignis under the mantle of Babcock Packaged Boilers while B&W had become a mere shadow of its former self .
> Some of the money for such acquisitions came from selling the wholly owned Babcock Germany to the then Shah of Persia who craved ownership of fuel gobbling industries.
> Names like Babcock -Hitachi , Mitsubishi , etc horned in and little remains in Britain I believe .
> 
> Bob


Cochran still going strong, just fitted two new boilers in paddle steamer Waverley. Make lots for glasshouses, factories etc. 

Dannic.


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## loco

There are still a number of boiler makers in the UK, albeit probably relatively small; they supply the traction engine and steam railways with replacement or repair boilers.

The boiler for the A1 'Tornado' was made in a former East German railway workshop, as B12/3 8572 at the North Norfolk railway. I think at least one other new build steam locomotive group are also looking to get their boiler from there.


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## sternchallis

Sulzer 1915 horizontal steam engine driving a paddle wheeler.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/626143870734279/permalink/3567318379950132/

Works if you are not on facebook as well.

Poetry in motion.


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## Chillytoes

Loco
Keep away from that old East German mob. The boiler they built for the Australian engine, 3801, was a disaster in every possible way. Nothing fitted, nothing was straight, nothing could be sealed nothing lined up, etc etc etc. Look it up.


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## dannic

Didn't Fred Dibnah the steeplejack retube his traction engine himself? Have his autobiography somewhere so will have to have a look
Dannic


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## ardtornish

it's long time since I was on this site, but I guess this is the best place to find an answer to my question.
A long time ago, (1950s) when on the bridge of an old steamer with a triple expansion engine, I was told...do not in any cir***stances ring down from Full Ahead to Full Astern before ringing STOP on the telegraph. I think I remember why, but would be grateful to hear it from the mouth of an expert.

Ardtornish


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## Farmer John

sternchallis said:


> Sulzer 1915 horizontal steam engine driving a paddle wheeler.
> 
> Jeff Winston
> 
> Works if you are not on facebook as well.
> 
> Poetry in motion.


I have a sort of a yearn for something like that in the back of the car.


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## Tim Gibbs

spongebob said:


> .............I joined Rangitane with her twin six cylinder Doxford diesels , popular and respected engines ....................
> 
> Bob


Bob, they obviously weren't the 750 mm bore LBs then.?


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## Varley

Farmer John said:


> I have a sort of a yearn for something like that in the back of the car.


Pa had a miniature something like that with a Locomobile. As I recall it was more in the under than in the back.

Had he not parted with it I would have learned to drive just for that (he had bought it in bits before he was crippled and let the chap who then helped him reassemble it have it when I was in my early teens).


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## Bill Morrison

Farmer John said:


> I have a sort of a yearn for something like that in the back of the car.


Hi F.J. A Stanley steamer would suit if you can still get your hands on one. The engine on Youtube.


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