# Crew records for James Chien Yong



## nberens (Dec 7, 2016)

I'm looking for any information on my great grandfather Chien Yong (also known as James Chien Yong). Firstname/Surname are interchangable so he is also recorded as Yong Chien. He was from the Hong Kong region of China and first left his home country in approx 1906. 

I found a couple of records for him so far and am at a loss as to what other information I can gather from these records. 

RECORD 1
------------
Name	Yong Chien
Birth Date	abt 1891
Age	46
Port of Departure	West Indies
Arrival Date	21 May 1937
Port of Arrival	Plymouth, England
Ship Name	Colombia
Search Ship Database	Colombia Colombia
Shipping Line	Royal Netherlands Steamship Company Ltd
Official Number	1298


RECORD 2
------------
Arrival Date	7 November 1918
Birth Date	abt 1891
Age	27
Gender	Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality	Chinese
Port of Departure	Sydney Cape Briton Island
Port of Arrival	New York, New York
Ship Name	Bampton
Search Ship Database	Bampton
Yong Chien - Nov 1918 - New York, New York Sydney Cape Briton Island - Male - Bampton

Apparently he was also resident in Aruba as well as Liverpool, UK (when he came to port anyway, as he was mostly at sea until approx 1945). 

Any ideas on where I can get more information? Can I expect to find exact birth place on any records?

Many thanks


----------



## wightspirit (Feb 15, 2008)

Is this him: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8072279

Dave W


----------



## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello,
You may find some records for him in the Fifth Register of British Merchant Seamen. Primarily his form CRS 10. 
Form CRS 10 will give details of his service on British Merchant ships from early 1941 until 1972. 
Chinese seamen are always difficult to research, not least because of the interchangeability of the first name with the surname.
If anywhere he may have records in sub section five of the series BT382 at the British Archive. 

CHIEN YONG 
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11001447 and http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11001331
YONG CHIEN
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11001332
and http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11001329

These record are stored in blocks of 60 names catalogued alphabetically. You cannot view the records online. You would need to visit the archive or appoint a researcher to look for you.

regards
Roger


----------



## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello again,
Could this be your man CHIN YONG born 26/June 1891 in Hong Kong
Next of Kin his mother Chin Gquiee?
Small scar on right cheek.
Served as a Steward on board the British ship CHERRY BRANCH official number 125496. In September 1921.

regards
Roger


----------



## nberens (Dec 7, 2016)

@wightspirit that's not him as he didn't serve in either WW so wouldn't have had any medals

@roger many thanks for the tips on where to search. I think he mainly worked between 1906 and 1940 so should I be looking at a different set of records for that period? I am right in assuming that I'd have more chance looking in Canada i.e. https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php

Yes my great grandfather's birthday was 26th June 1891 and he worked as a steward and later as chief steward. I don't recognise the next of kin (his father's name was Chien Wah and his mother's name Chien Kai). Is the "official number 125496" his sort of staff number on that particular ship?


----------



## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello again,
This record is available on the pay to view site Find My Past.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/ 
I did note post a copy of the record including a photograph of him due to copyright considerations
I think they do a seven day free trial, or if not you can pay a reasonable cost for credits which should be more than enough time to find the record yourself. 
Hit the search button on the top line, Click Education and work, then Merchant navy and maritime. Use the search term Chin Yong not Yong Chin.
I think his mothers name on the record would have sounded phonetically similar to a western ear in the early part of the 20th century. The British Empire still encouraged the attitude that British people were superior to Johnny foreigner. and it would be "near enough"to write what you think you heard.
The number 125496 is the official number of the ship CHERRY BRANCH.
You should find her crew agreements and logbooks for 1921 available from here
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=125496

Be sure to ask for the Logbook and Crew Agreement covering the date 17/9/1921 The Crew Agreement should tell you which British ship (If any) he served on previously.

regards

Roger


----------



## nberens (Dec 7, 2016)

Hi Roger, 

Thank you SO much for all your help! I already have subscriptions to findmypast.co.uk and ancestry.com so I was able to find the record you were referring to. I sent it to my grandad who confirms that´s his dad, although he had trouble recognising him as he is so young in the photo. 

I have now contacted mun.ca to ask for the records you mentioned and am eagerly awaiting the next step in my search.

Would records for the Royal Netherlands Steamship Company Ltd also be on mun.ca in Canada do you think or do they only have records for UK based ships?

Thanks again


----------



## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello again,
I am not aware of the records of the Royal Netherlands Steamship Company Ltd being in MUN. If they have survived, I should imagine they are in the Netherlands.
Henk Meurs may be able to enlighten you.
http://members.ziggo.nl/hmeurs/
I don't think COLUMBIA was British Ship if she was then her Official number is wrong.
I would not dismiss the link given by Dave W. I believe Ancestry has these records online if not it may be worth £3.50 downloading from TNA.

regards
Roger


----------



## nberens (Dec 7, 2016)

I think I did actually order that Medal Card a few years ago. In my excitement to have found something online, I went ahead and purchased it only to find it was a tiny do***ent with only a few lines of text. I had actually mis-read it and thought I'd be getting a medical card, but then read it correctly and realised he would never had received a medal anyway as he was never a serviceman.

I've just sent a message to Henk and have now ordered the British ship records from the Maritime History Archive. I can actually read/speak a bit of Dutch so if he can point me in the right direction I should be able to do more research myself quite easily (I live in NL too).

Thanks again for your help


----------



## nberens (Dec 7, 2016)

Hi Roger, where can you see "he served as a Steward on board the British ship CHERRY BRANCH official number 125496. In September 1921." I can't see that in his CR10 card?


----------



## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

nberens said:


> I think I did actually order that Medal Card a few years ago. In my excitement to have found something online, I went ahead and purchased it only to find it was a tiny do***ent with only a few lines of text. I had actually mis-read it and thought I'd be getting a medical card, but then read it correctly* and realised he would never had received a medal anyway as he was never a serviceman.*


*Rubbish!* Merchant Seamen in both World War's were entitled to and were awarded Campaign medals. For WW1. These records consist of over 155,000 index cards recording the issue of the British War Medal and the Mercantile Marine Medal to merchant seamen and officers in the First World War.
For WW2 read http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...ant-seamens-campaign-medal-records-1939-1945/
You say in your first post that your great grandfather "was at sea until 1945 approx" So maybe he has a medal entitlement for WW2
If poster Hugh Maclean reads this post he may be able to tell you how you go about getting hold of medals.

regards
Roger


----------



## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

nberens said:


> Hi Roger, where can you see "he served as a Steward on board the British ship CHERRY BRANCH official number 125496. In September 1921." I can't see that in his CR10 card?


The CR10 Gives his rank as Steward on the reverse, the card with the photograph on, it gives the official number of CHERRY BRANCH 125496
and the date he signed on 17/9/21.

CHERRY BRANCH was named DUNEDIN until 1919
http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnum.php

regards
Roger


----------



## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Roger is quite correct regarding WW1 and WW2 medals and what's more, given the information supplied so far, I would suggest it is quite possible that it is his medal card from WW1. Unfortunately WW1 medal cards do not give any personal id information apart from perhaps his RS2 number on the top right hand side of the card, sometimes his discharge number is given instead. The discharge number is very useful to know as it is the pivotal reference when searching for any merchant seaman - the RS2 number much less so.

So my first advice is search for him with an open mind and don't rule things out without checking first. The biggest hurdle you face is proving his medal entitlement if indeed he did serve in either or both wars. As Roger will I am sure agree, Lascar and Chinese seamen are much more difficult to research for obvious reasons.

To find out if he did serve in WW1, you can try and obtain crew agreements working backwards from 1921 and CHERRY BRANCH as that is the only way to find out which ships he may have served in prior to that date, including the war, but you may have to get more than one.

For WW2 medals - again you will need to supply evidence of service from 1939 - 1945. This evidence will be in the form of official do***ents in the absence of his discharge book.

The process for WW2 would be to first make contact with the Registry of Shipping and Seamen in Cardiff (now the Maritime & Coastguard Agency) and check for a medal entitlement for him - I can pretty much guarantee there won't be one so they will ask you to provide the proof of service to their office before they can issue any medals to his next of kin. That would require you obtain his CRS 10, record of service from Jan, 1941, if it has survived. The files you need to obtain are as outlined in Roger's post #3 above.

Any questions? Please feel free to ask we will help if we can.

Regards
Hugh


----------



## nberens (Dec 7, 2016)

Roger Griffiths said:


> Merchant Seamen in both World War's were entitled to and were awarded Campaign medals.


I had no idea! Thank you for explaining



wightspirit said:


> Is this him: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8072279


Thanks Dave, I've just ordered that record (I had ordered it previously but I can't find it anymore)


----------



## nberens (Dec 7, 2016)

Hugh MacLean said:


> To find out if he did serve in WW1, you can try and obtain crew agreements working backwards from 1921 and CHERRY BRANCH as that is the only way to find out which ships he may have served in prior to that date, including the war, but you may have to get more than one.


Thank you Hugh. Based on the info that Roger found I ordered records from the Cherry Branch and then also from his previous ship the Willkeno. The only bit of extra info I got was that he was already working as ship's cook on the Willkeno and I have another certificate number which I think is his cook's certificate. I've ordered that from the national archives too. 

In the meantime I decided that it was a bit pricey to retrieve ship's do***ents because each voyage only lasted a few months. If I want to trace his employment going back a few years it'll cost a lot. I'm wondering if there's another way of getting info rather than individual ship's records? I've attached a copy of the top half of his CR10 which I think shows his RS2 number. Can I use this to get more information?


----------



## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

For WW2 - you need his CRS 10 which will list all his ships from 1941.
Unfortunately since individual WW1 MN personal records have not survived the only way to trace an individual is by using crew agreements, begining with a known ship, which as you have found out can be a long winded and expensive process.

I would not use the Kew research service if I were you as it is very expensive - other researchers are out there some are good others not so.

Unfortunately the RS2 number is not much use for tracing records.

Regards
Hugh


----------



## Roger Griffiths (Feb 10, 2006)

Hugh MacLean said:


> Unfortunately since individual WW1 MN personal records have not survived the only way to trace an individual is by using crew agreements, begining with a known ship, which as you have found out can be a long winded and expensive process.


If your main concern now is his posssible WW1 service>>>>>>>>

With reference to your very first post >>>>>>



RECORD 2
------------
Arrival Date	7 November 1918
Birth Date	abt 1891
Age	27
Gender	Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality	Chinese
Port of Departure	Sydney Cape Briton Island
Port of Arrival	New York, New York
Ship Name	*Bampton*
Search Ship Database	Bampton
Yong Chien - Nov 1918 - New York, New York Sydney Cape Briton Island - Male - Bampton

If the vessel was the British registered BAMPTON official number 128514 then I would ask MHA for her crew agreement covering the date 7/Nov/1918. If we can get his previous ship from this and she is also British registered we can then look at the crew agreements 1914-1918 in the British National Archive.
I should be there on 16/1//2017 and will attempt to look for you but I do need the name of the ship and her official number.

regards
Roger


----------



## nberens (Dec 7, 2016)

Roger Griffiths said:


> If your main concern now is his posssible WW1 service


Actually any and all information is extremely interesting for me. I'm slowly building a picture of his life and his travels. I'm particularly interested in finding out when he left China and if he settled anywhere else other than England. On one do***ent I see that his intended permanent place of residence was Aruba which is a curious thing. It's like finding pieces of a jigsaw 



Roger Griffiths said:


> I should be there on 16/1//2017 and will attempt to look for you but I do need the name of the ship and her official number.


That's amazing and so generous of you to look for me, thank you!! I've been trying to contact mun.ca for the last couple of days to get that information but I think they may be on holiday. I'll keep trying.


----------

