# Victory Ships.



## Williamsniece (Aug 25, 2021)

Didn't quite know where to put this, but here I am.
The Liberty ships first, later the Victory ships when war in all theaters were over, carried out an honorable action that nobody seems to know about. National Archives were VERY stingy with their information, nobody of the thousands of people involved has written a word about it that I can find...I even found an article accompanied by a photo of a Victory ship in the building stage, and this action wasn't even mentioned.
I know it happened. I read the one book the National Archives people said to read, and wrote to the address they gave me (that was the extent of their help) to get my uncle's Individual Deceased Personnel File.
My uncle was disinterred from his grave in France and put in a metal casket, carefully loaded onto the SS Lawrence Victory, along with--I don't know how many they held--a lot of other metal caskets, sailed from Antwerp to New York Harbor, and eventually, through the other processes in this program, my uncle was re-buried in 1948 with a military funeral in Nebo, KY. 
I haven't found another person who knows what I'm talking about.
Let me be clear: he wasn't a merchant marine, he was Army. But we found the bodies of American soldiers, pilots, even some shipwrecked, in 35 countries! 
Anybody have a clue?
I know the basics, and more, but I thought maybe someone could give me more information about the ships' role in this.
Does anybody have a clue?


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## jerome morris (May 27, 2008)

Victory ships were the ships that brought the troops home, they supplied the allies with building materials to rebuild there war torn homes, trucks and tractors and anything else a country needs to get back to sanity. And they brought home the deceased Americans. There really isn’t any significance as to the ship itself in what it did. If it was loading troops it was also loading caskets. The SS Lawrence Victory just happened to be the ship in whatever port at that particular time.


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

Hi Williamsniece. This was 'The Return of the Dead Program' Article here:Gruesome but Honorable Work: The Return of the Dead Program following World War II
There were two Victory ships with similar names "Lawrence Victory" and "St Lawrence Victory" . Can you confirm it was definitely the "Lawrence Victory"?
Regards


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

Further to last post, I found a reference in a book "Final Disposition of World War II Dead 1945-51, Volume 2" by Edward Steere and Thayer M Boardman.to "Lawrence Victory" as one of the ships assigned to the task of repatriation of remains of US war dead.
Link here: Final Disposition of World War II Dead, 1945-51


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## Williamsniece (Aug 25, 2021)

jerome morris said:


> Victory ships were the ships that brought the troops home, they supplied the allies with building materials to rebuild there war torn homes, trucks and tractors and anything else a country needs to get back to sanity. And they brought home the deceased Americans. There really isn’t any significance as to the ship itself in what it did. If it was loading troops it was also loading caskets. The SS Lawrence Victory just happened to be the ship in whatever port at that particular time.


Yes, I know they did all that. And that means merchant marines loaded and unloaded the caskets and sailed back to the States with them. However, they did NOT carry troops home in the same ships in which they loaded caskets, so if that's what you mean by "If it was loading troops, it was also loading caskets" (and I'm pretty sure it is) you're wrong.The ships were refitted in such a way as to carry as many caskets home as possible. They were carrying bodies that had been dug up, not the "fresh and immediate" bodies we see coming off the planes now. I'd like to know how they were refitted, how long it took them to sail from Antwerp to New York --before you tell me weather played a part, I know that, too --whether or not they were stoic about their cargo, or spooked, or knew at the time they were doing ANOTHER job, for the military, that they should have been held in great respect and honor for (which they didn't get)...I named the SS Lawrence Victory ship because its significance to ME Is that it's the ship that brought my uncle home. 

Did you know they brought the deceased home from the war, or do you know it now because that's what I wrote in my question?
If you already knew it, you're the first person in hundreds I've contacted.
And actually, Liberty ships brought home the dead until the war in the Pacific Theater was over.


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## Williamsniece (Aug 25, 2021)

eddyw said:


> Further to last post, I found a reference in a book "Final Disposition of World War II Dead 1945-51, Volume 2" by Edward Steere and Thayer M Boardman.to "Lawrence Victory" as one of the ships assigned to the task of repatriation of remains of US war dead.
> Link here: Final Disposition of World War II Dead, 1945-51


Thank you, eddyw. That's the name of the only book the National Archives gave me. The book was commissioned by the Army itself, and the two authors agreed to write it only if the Army kept their hands off-- no editing out the criticisms. I've taken copious notes from it. Besides just a reference source, it's a fascinating telling of WWII history nobody has paid much attention to.
I'm trying to flesh out the information, and if there are merchant marines who were aboard these ships, I'd like to hear from them... or anyone else who can tell me, for instance, whether it was only the cargo hold that was refitted, or elsewhere.
It's hard to write a paper when there's only ONE book quoted!
Much more recently, someone wrote a book titled something like, "How we handle our military dead". I read it, too. It contains short 'chapters' about all the wars we've had. It told me almost nothing I didn't already know about WWII. I've also read about the facility--I believe it's in Hawaii-- where they identify remains, and some remains have been found that were of WWII soldiers!


eddyw said:


> Hi Williamsniece. This was 'The Return of the Dead Program' Article here:Gruesome but Honorable Work: The Return of the Dead Program following World War II
> There were two Victory ships with similar names "Lawrence Victory" and "St Lawrence Victory" . Can you confirm it was definitely the "Lawrence Victory"?
> Regards


Yes, eddyw, it was certainly the Lawrence, not St. Lawrence. I had tried to figure out myself which one it was & found that my uncle's Individual Deceased Personnel File confirmed that my guess was right.
Wow. Almost nobody recognizes the name "Return of the Dead Program" but that was indeed its name.


eddyw said:


> Hi Williamsniece. This was 'The Return of the Dead Program' Article here:Gruesome but Honorable Work: The Return of the Dead Program following World War II
> There were two Victory ships with similar names "Lawrence Victory" and "St Lawrence Victory" . Can you confirm it was definitely the "Lawrence Victory"?
> Regards


This is an article I'd never seen or heard of. Thank you so much.. When I was researching the paper, I was new to the computer, so cussed at it every time I failed to find what I had found the day before. This article is dated 2021! No wonder I didn't find it
It is incorrect, or worded incorrectly, on one point: the ships were transport ships, but they didn't belong to the Army; they were merchant marine ships.
The National Archives gave me the name of the book you mentioned in your next, or first, comment, and gave me the address of the Army section I could write to in order to get a copy of my uncle's Individual Deceased Personnel File (I got one of my cousins' great-uncle's file, too. She gave me permission but didn't want to hear anything). In my uncle's file are the copies of the forms sent out to the next of kin, asking if they wanted their son brought home, whether or not the parents wanted a flat plaque provided by the military or if they'd get him his grave marker, where they would have the funeral..and more.
The file also told of how they'd taken care of the casket before putting it on the train. I'd read they made sure the caskets were in good shape, but it's a different thing, reading that they'd painted one corner and something else.
The article also mentions an escort. From the depot where caskets were put on trains to their final destination, the escorts had to be of one or more ranks above the.person he was escorting. My mother remembered the escorts name Tech Sgt Trawick. The escorts all remained for the funerals of the men they escorted.


eddyw said:


> Hi Williamsniece. This was 'The Return of the Dead Program' Article here:Gruesome but Honorable Work: The Return of the Dead Program following World War II
> There were two Victory ships with similar names "Lawrence Victory" and "St Lawrence Victory" . Can you confirm it was definitely the "Lawrence Victory"?
> Regards





eddyw said:


> Hi Williamsniece. This was 'The Return of the Dead Program' Article here:Gruesome but Honorable Work: The Return of the Dead Program following World War II
> There were two Victory ships with similar names "Lawrence Victory" and "St Lawrence Victory" . Can you confirm it was definitely the "Lawrence Victory"?
> Regards





eddyw said:


> Hi Williamsniece. This was 'The Return of the Dead Program' Article here:Gruesome but Honorable Work: The Return of the Dead Program following World War II
> There were two Victory ships with similar names "Lawrence Victory" and "St Lawrence Victory" . Can you confirm it was definitely the "Lawrence Victory"?
> Regards


Yes, it was indeed the SS Lawrence Victory, not the St. Lawrence.
I'd kind of figured it out, but I found I was correct when I got his file. The National Archives gave me the name of the book you mentioned in your earlier, or is it later, comment, and gave me the address of an Army facility that would give me a copy of my uncle's Individual Deceased Personnel File. That's it. They never offered me any other information.
In his file were, the cause of his death, where he was buried, the people buried either side of him, the forms the Army sent for the questions of whether they wanted William to be repatriated; if they wanted the military to provide a grave marker, the flat plaque; where should be be brought; the chain of command, so to speak, of his body, from the cemetery to the train, the train to the dock, the dock to the ship...they touched up the paint on one corner of the casket, as each casket got a once-over before the loved ones saw them, a single military escort escorted caskets home (in William's case, he escorted two caskets). So much more went into this, so many hundreds of people...
I also got my aunt's uncle's file (with her permission), which had other material in it such as how to wrap a dead body and bury it if Graves Registration couldn't get there in time.

I wondered why I couldn't find that article myself years ago when I was searching, but it's dated 2021! That's a pretty good reason.

The article did make one mistake though. The ships weren't Army transport ships. The Army used them, but they were merchant marine ships; they never had been Army.
Another comment: not a mistake, just that Graves Registration worked throughout the war. But.they named the group.that was going.to.fnd the remains after the war the American Graves Registration Corps


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## tunatownshipwreck (Nov 9, 2005)

Williamsniece said:


> Yes, I know they did all that. And that means merchant marines loaded and unloaded the caskets and sailed back to the States with them. However, they did NOT carry troops home in the same ships in which they loaded caskets, so if that's what you mean by "If it was loading troops, it was also loading caskets" (and I'm pretty sure it is) you're wrong.The ships were refitted in such a way as to carry as many caskets home as possible. They were carrying bodies that had been dug up, not the "fresh and immediate" bodies we see coming off the planes now. I'd like to know how they were refitted, how long it took them to sail from Antwerp to New York --before you tell me weather played a part, I know that, too --whether or not they were stoic about their cargo, or spooked, or knew at the time they were doing ANOTHER job, for the military, that they should have been held in great respect and honor for (which they didn't get)...I named the SS Lawrence Victory ship because its significance to ME Is that it's the ship that brought my uncle home.
> 
> Did you know they brought the deceased home from the war, or do you know it now because that's what I wrote in my question?
> If you already knew it, you're the first person in hundreds I've contacted.
> And actually, Liberty ships brought home the dead until the war in the Pacific Theater was over.


I'd just like to clarify it was stevedores (longshoremen) who did the loading and unloading.


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## eddyw (Nov 6, 2007)

"Lawrence Victory" was always referred to as a USAT (United States Army Transport) and was managed at the time she was operating as a repatriation ship by the US Army, according to the MARAD records. Link here - click on 'Status Cards'


LAWRENCE VICTORY


There are references to the ships being 'converted' for this role but details are scarce. They were supposed to be painted white with a purple 'mourning band' but it is not clear if this was applied to "Lawrence Victory" . They were certainly very smartly turned out as would befit their role in the solemn ceremonies which took place at the ports of embarkation (Antwerp, Cherbourg, Cardiff) and the US destination ports. There is a photo in the Steere and Boardman book of her at Cardiff (p 362). As well as military presence thousands of local residents turned out to show respect. The caskets were apparently shipped in protective steel crates and loaded by crane into the hold. It is possible that the holds were adapted in some way to ensure safe carriage.


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## jerome morris (May 27, 2008)

Sorry if I upset you.
That was not my intention.
Good luck in your research.
You are looking for hard to find information.
Most of the merchant mariners of that time period have long since passed on.
It would have been a very honorable duty as a mariner to bring home those that died in the war. I’m certain there were a few older sailers that were spooked by it, but that was a very few sailers.
Again, Good luck on your book.


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## wightspirit (Feb 15, 2008)

Williamsniece

If you send me a PM I can send you some information published in UK newspapers, which includes a service on board the Lawrence Victory. The reports are accompanied by a number of images relating to the repatriation of 4383 American dead.

Dave W


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