# Sail Training Ships



## Jim MacIntyre

Not sure if this is the correct place but i'll go ahead anyway. 
Just been reading about the Yacht 'Halcyon' and her days at the School of Nav in Warsash. It brought back some memories. Does anyone recall the sailing ship that was attached to the Outward Bound School in Elgin, Scotland in the late 1950's. I recall the name was 'Prince Louis' and vaguely recall she might have been a wartime 'prize' from one of the Scandinavian countries. 
Can anyone shed any light on the history of the 'Prince Louis' ?? I have a photo and one of these days when I figure out how to post it I will.


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## John2905

Hi
I certainly remember The Price Louis. I sailed on her in August 1963 when I did an Outward Bound course at Burghead. I tried to locate some details afew years ago and think that the ship was sold and became the BelEspoir but I am not certain.
http://flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72057594104852775/detail/

Regards
John


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## melliget

Hi.

Here are a couple of articles from The Times on the Prince Louis (II), previously Peder Most.

Thu, 12 May 1955
News In Brief
Danish Schooner For Sea School
Peder Most, the famous Danish three-
masted schooner, has been bought by the
Outward Bound Trust, Ltd., for use as a
cadet ship. She is to be completely re-
equipped, and will be renamed Prince
Louis, by the Duke of Edinburgh at Glasgow
on June 30. The Duke is patron of the
trust.
The ship was sold to the trust by Mr.
A. E. Sorensen, a shipowner and ship-
builder, of Svendborg, Denmark. She will
be fitted out to take two watches of boys
and will be used by the Outward Bound
Moray Sea School, at Burgshead, Scotland.

Fri, 01 Jul 1955
Schooner Named By Duke
Boys' Training Courses
Glasgow, June 30
The Duke of Edinburgh yesterday flew
by helicopter to Glasgow to name the three-
masted schooner Prince Louis, which was
acquired recently by the Outward Bound
Trust for £11,500 from Danish owners.
The Prince Louis replaces another sailing
ship of the same name, in which the Duke
received instruction in seamanship while
attending Gordonstoun School. She will be
used as a training ship for boys attending
character-forming courses at the Moray Sea
School, Burghead.
The Duke was piped on board, welcomed
by the master, Captain H. W. Langbein, of
London, and with Marshal of the Royal
Air Force Lord Tedder, chairman of the
Outward Bound Trust, inspected the 36 boys
on board, many of whom had manned the
Prince Louis on her voyage to the Clyde from
the Moray Firth.
Afterwards the Duke attended a meeting
of the Outward Bound Trust on board the
Carrick, the headquarters of the R.N.V.R.
Club (Scotland), where he was presented
with a model of the Prince Louis by Mr.
A. E. Sorensen, the former Danish owner.


I think you are right, John, about Prince Louis becoming the Bel Espoir:

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=125623&ran=245676
http://www.bel-espoir.com/navire/be

regards,
Martin


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## David Davies

What happened to the Garibaldi cerca 1948 ?


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## John Beaton

In response to Jim MacIntyre the facts about the Prince Louis mentioned in the responses are all correct. In Fact I was her Chief Officer for a spell in the mid sixties on secondment from the RAF, to which I fled immediately I gained my Master's Cert.. ( Air Marshal Tedder was involved with the Outward Bound movement, and as I did a great deal of sailing in the RAF,I found myself "invited" into the job. The Capt was Cdr Victor Clerk, a famed submariner in the war who subsequently wrote a book about his cir***navigation in a sailboat named Solace. The Prince Louis was an unhandy ship, quite unsuited for the task, having been a Baltic timber carrier. The French bought her finally, and renamed her Bel Etoil, if I remember correctly. I saw her once again in the early seventies in French waters. She was berthed near Gordonston school in Burghead while working for the OB Trust. The school had two or three whalers, and I recall we smashed one of them up while crossing the Burghead bar in a heavy swell. John Beaton.


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## Trader

*Garibaldi*



David Davies said:


> What happened to the Garibaldi cerca 1948 ?


Hi David,

The Garibaldi was laid up at Aberdovey when I was at the Outward Bound Sea school there in 1952. We had to pump bilges every day as she was leaking badly, I don't know what became of her. The training ship in use in those days at Aberdovey was the Warspite, a lovely ketch.

Alec.


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## David Davies

*Garibaldi*

Thanks Alec
I understand she was sold to a Caernarvon company for further trade but on passage sprang a leak and put into Pwllhelli were she became a wreck. She was a French fishing boat renamed Garibaldi in 1941, strange she should be thus named considering that we were at war with Italy at the time
Dave


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## rothesian

*Sail Training*

"Old Prince Louis" was replaced at Gordonstoun by the Pinta, a 56ton Yawl and the Soldian, a former sailing lifeboat (from Shetland?) Pinta was skippered by Lt. Cmdr Shaw RN Rtd and Soldian by Danny Main Hopeman Harbour Master - both taught seamanship and sailing on the cutters. Navigation and Maths was taught by Brian Davis (Davies?) ex B.I. officer - Gordonstoun was at the time recognised for its two year pre-sea training and scholarships were awarded by several Shipping Companies


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## price

The old 'Prince Louis' was at Aberdyfi for a short period in the early 1950s, I can't remember exactly which year, I think she replaced the 'Warspite' briefly while she was away for a refit or something else. The 'Warspite' was replaced by the 'Golden .......?' around 1953/4, more of a large motor sailer than a sailing vessel of the graceful lines of the 'Warspite', she may have been a converted MFV or something similar. I think the 'Garibaldi' was still at Aberdyfi when I left in the mid 1950s. Bruce.


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## David Davies

*Sail Training*

The Brian Davies you mention was in B.I. at the same time as myself, I was always getting his B.I. club bills (brings back the memories)


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## Topherjohn

*Ketch Golden Valley*



price said:


> The old 'Prince Louis' was at Aberdyfi for a short period in the early 1950s, I can't remember exactly which year, I think she replaced the 'Warspite' briefly while she was away for a refit or something else. The 'Warspite' was replaced by the 'Golden .......?' around 1953/4, more of a large motor sailer than a sailing vessel of the graceful lines of the 'Warspite', she may have been a converted MFV or something similar. I think the 'Garibaldi' was still at Aberdyfi when I left in the mid 1950s. Bruce.


'Warspite' was replaced by the 'Golden .......?' My recollection is she was called Golden Valley when I did my OBSS course in 1956. I have posted a couple of photos I took on the course in the Gallery at http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/116404/ppuser/20641


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## aled

*aled*



David Davies said:


> Thanks Alec
> I understand she was sold to a Caernarvon company for further trade but on passage sprang a leak and put into Pwllhelli were she became a wreck. She was a French fishing boat renamed Garibaldi in 1941, strange she should be thus named considering that we were at war with Italy at the time
> Dave


Yes David you'r right I was at school at Pwllheli 1954-55 when the Garibaldi was tied up in the harbour. She was there for a few years before they moved her to what we used to call the island on the other side of the harbour, she was sadly set on fire and that was the sad end of Garibaldi.


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## stein

Two pictures of Prince Louis: http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=43383 And: http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=35409 Regards, stein.


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## Flicker Forbs

John Beaton said:


> In response to Jim MacIntyre the facts about the Prince Louis mentioned in the responses are all correct. In Fact I was her Chief Officer for a spell in the mid sixties on secondment from the RAF, to which I fled immediately I gained my Master's Cert.. ( Air Marshal Tedder was involved with the Outward Bound movement, and as I did a great deal of sailing in the RAF,I found myself "invited" into the job. The Capt was Cdr Victor Clerk, a famed submariner in the war who subsequently wrote a book about his cir***navigation in a sailboat named Solace. The Prince Louis was an unhandy ship, quite unsuited for the task, having been a Baltic timber carrier. The French bought her finally, and renamed her Bel Etoil, if I remember correctly. I saw her once again in the early seventies in French waters. She was berthed near Gordonston school in Burghead while working for the OB Trust. The school had two or three whalers, and I recall we smashed one of them up while crossing the Burghead bar in a heavy swell. John Beaton.



I was at Burhead in 1965 so I probably sailed with you then. If so please reply as we had a memorable cruise, having to abandon it when we torn the main
Mr Clegg took us out the lifeboat, the Kurt and Lola Harn ( if I remeber correctly) Quite a trip

Philip


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## Linda1954

*alan clegg*

alan clegg was my father he was at Burghead from 1965 thru 1974ish. when he bought MY Sarinda to start his own business cruising.


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## John B M Jones

Ref Jim MacIntyre's original question I also attended the Outward Bound in Burghead in 1961 and sailed in the Prince Louis. Still have photo on my study wall. At the time was advised that it was built in Norway during WW2. When visiting Aberdyfi in 2006 was surprised to see what appeared to be one of the original wooden Burghead cutters/whalers being unloaded on the quay. The gentleman in charge who had looked after the Outward Bound boats for over 24 years advised that the current boat had been moulded from the shell/hull of the last of the Burghead cutters and also advised that the Prince Louis had sunk in a storm in San Francisco bay several years before? A sad end if correct?


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## John Gurton

You can all now re live the "experience" of the Halcyon, in a bit more luxury than the focsle bunks nowadays !
http://www.halcyonyachtcharter.com/captains_log.php?id=64


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## henry97071

John B M Jones said:


> Ref Jim MacIntyre's original question I also attended the Outward Bound in Burghead in 1961 and sailed in the Prince Louis. Still have photo on my study wall. At the time was advised that it was built in Norway during WW2. When visiting Aberdyfi in 2006 was surprised to see what appeared to be one of the original wooden Burghead cutters/whalers being unloaded on the quay. The gentleman in charge who had looked after the Outward Bound boats for over 24 years advised that the current boat had been moulded from the shell/hull of the last of the Burghead cutters and also advised that the Prince Louis had sunk in a storm in San Francisco bay several years before? A sad end if correct?


By accident a number of years ago I saw a picture in a newspaper of the burned out hulk in San Francisco Bay. I attended the sea school in 1955 and will never forget the time spent in the "dipping lug-sail" cutters.


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## Scurdie

Yes, I went aboard the Prince Louis once as a young lad (visitor, not as crew). I had read an article about tall ships, I think in a National Geographic Magazine, and her captain was most impressed that I knew her previous name was Peder Most!
The Outward Bound school was in Burghead, not Elgin. Many years later, I had occasion to visit a small electronics firm there, and to my surprise found that their premises were the old Outward Bound school (or part of it). There's a photograph of the buildings at http://www.outwardboundgenerations.org.uk/taxonomy/term/3


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## Linda1954

I have many pictures of boats and people at O.B Burghead just don't know how or where to post them


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## Peter B

John B M Jones said:


> Ref Jim MacIntyre's original question I also attended the Outward Bound in Burghead in 1961 and sailed in the Prince Louis. Still have photo on my study wall. At the time was advised that it was built in Norway during WW2. ....


It was not built in Norway, but in Denmark, by the Ring-Andersen shipyard in Svendborg. The yard is still active today, playing a major role in the preservation of vintage ships.
The yards website: http://www.ring-andersen.dk/index.asp?page=100&language=uk


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## Neil Macdonald

Peter B said:


> It was not built in Norway, but in Denmark, by the Ring-Andersen shipyard in Svendborg. The yard is still active today, playing a major role in the preservation of vintage ships.
> The yards website: http://www.ring-andersen.dk/index.asp?page=100&language=uk


Hello I was at the Moray Sea School February 1960 and thoroughly enjoyed every part of the adventure. Commander De Chare was in charge.
Yes the Prince Louis was built in Demark and had a sister ship but this was sunk by the Germans during the war. I was told that their main cargo was timber around the Baltic. I would love to see photographs as the one I had was destroyed. Any futher information would be wonderful.
I wanted to show the vessel to my daughter, 22 whom has been accepted by the R.N and goes to HMS Raleigh next month. 
I recall the 2 tonne cutters and the dolphins in the Moray Firth and on one voyage we were entering Burghead harbour wehen a huge swell arrived and drove us onto the bar the vessel was awash but along came another large wave and spewed us into the port as if we were a giant surfboard

Regards
Neil


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## frankw

*Prince Louis 11*

Hi, I attended the OB Moray Sea School in Jan/Feb 1965. I can remember the Prince Louis very well as a young lad of sixteen. We sailed around the Scottish coast and berthed at Stromness in Orkney before camping on the isle of Hoy.

She was sold in 1968 and renamed "Bel Espoir II". She has her own webpage here ... http://bel-espoir.com/navire/be 

I was hoping to see her in this years Tall Ships race.

Cheers
Frank Whitaker


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## EddieH

Prince Louis 11

Like Frank I too remeber dearly spending a week on the Louis Jan / Feb think this was 1967 up to Stomness and camping on the Island of Hoy, we crossed the Pentland Firth during the night in a force 8. This experience endeared me to sailing ships and I too visited the Tall Ships in Hartlepool last weekend hoping to see her. Nevertheless to see all those spendid vessels and the young men and young ladies brought back some special memories

Cheers

Eddie Hall


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## RichardRNRAN

*Prince Louis*

In 1965 Their Lordships, in their wisdom, saw fit to send me as a Sub Lieutenant watchkeeper to the Prince Louis at the Moray Outward Bound Sea School, Elgin, Scotland. This was certainly different to watch I had just completed doing in Singapore in HMS CAESAR. At the time Prince Louis was commanded by Commander Victor Clark DSC RN. We operated out of Burghead (also used as the name of a BAY-Class frigate). We had a Master (Victor Clark), a Mate (ex-Merchant Navy), an Engineer, myself (RN) and another watchkeeper (British Army - never quite figured that one out).

We took groups of 24 teenage boys on three day cruises off the eastern cost of Scotland. On one of those cruises the wind was so favourable that we actually made it to the Orkneys and I have a photo of us under full sail off Stromness. I should add that this photo does NOT resemble the pic elsewhere on this website.

When the young men arrived onboard CDR Clark gave them a welcoming address. Later that same day, in the true tradition of the Royal Navy not wishing to waste a moment of anyone's time on board, he also gave a presentation of his voyage around the world in his ketch SOLACE. I have a signed copy of his book about this three-year epic. 

Prince Louis was built in Denmark during WW2. A striking feature of her construction was the closeness of her ribs. They were so close that you could not put you clenched fist between them. The story, true or false, was that as this was a wartime construction the builders were intent on occupying the slipway for as long as possible whilst using as much material as possible. They were alleged to have partially dismantled the vessel overnight. If it is not true, at least its a good story.

The strength of her hull was tested twice a day in Scotland when we grounded in Burghead.


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## JohnBP

*Pl*

I too attended the Moray Sea School, sailed on the PL as an assistant to the engineer (better than Captain of the Heads), the following year I joined BP as a marine engineer, love boats...


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## pal8125

*hello*

hello


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## Bob S

Jim MacIntyre said:


> Not sure if this is the correct place but i'll go ahead anyway.
> Just been reading about the Yacht 'Halcyon' and her days at the School of Nav in Warsash. It brought back some memories. Does anyone recall the sailing ship that was attached to the Outward Bound School in Elgin, Scotland in the late 1950's. I recall the name was 'Prince Louis' and vaguely recall she might have been a wartime 'prize' from one of the Scandinavian countries.
> Can anyone shed any light on the history of the 'Prince Louis' ?? I have a photo and one of these days when I figure out how to post it I will.


Going back to the first post, It may be of interest to know that the Halcyon was under refit in Gloucester Docks earlier this year. Pictured here on the 28th March along side the Big Saba.

Regards

Bob


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## R58484956

Greetings* pal8125 *and welcome to* SN*. Bon voyage.


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## Alan Bush

I remember sailing the Old Louis close hauled through the Sutors of Cromarty in about 1948. We were out for a long weekend and the weather got so bad that we couldn't get back into Burghead on acc of the swell. There was a ship Mayglen of Montreal was refused entry too, I guess she was loaded with barley but this is a guess.
We didn't get off The Louis until the next Friday when we sailed in to the canal basin in Inverness and went back to school by bus. It must have been just before the Burghead Sea School was invented. Danny was on board as engineer and Cdr Godwin skipper. The Kelvin engine went to miss, probably because one of the vapourizers never got hot. The Ailsa Creag didn't work at all. Before that we dragged towards The Tain Bar and got out northeastwards close hauled towing the cutters which were with us.
They managed to get back to Hopeman, not sure if it was that day. I have written about this trip in my book. "It All My Fault" You can find it on Kindle or at http://scorraigweave.com/books_files/books.html Hope it is not naughty to give my book a we plug.
I remember all this because it was my most enjoyable week at school. I wasn't at school at all the whole time.


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## kernow jon

John Beaton said:


> The school had two or three whalers, and I recall we smashed one of them up while crossing the Burghead bar in a heavy swell. John Beaton.


I do not recall Whalers - I do remember the 2 masted dipping lugsail Cutters. in spring 1963 when I was there one was wrecked on the Burghead harbour bar. Giving rise to a song "Rodney rowed the boat ashore ....." (==D)

BTW John BP - I was Captain of the Heads - maybe because I was cack handed and youngest in the watch - what I hated was the daily climb up the mast - I used to do it even though I was petrified - I hate heights!!!


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## neilwilsonla9

*Prince Louis*



Jim MacIntyre said:


> Not sure if this is the correct place but i'll go ahead anyway.
> Just been reading about the Yacht 'Halcyon' and her days at the School of Nav in Warsash. It brought back some memories. Does anyone recall the sailing ship that was attached to the Outward Bound School in Elgin, Scotland in the late 1950's. I recall the name was 'Prince Louis' and vaguely recall she might have been a wartime 'prize' from one of the Scandinavian countries.
> Can anyone shed any light on the history of the 'Prince Louis' ?? I have a photo and one of these days when I figure out how to post it I will.


I attended the outward bound Moray Sea School in Burghead in 1949. It was the first summer of its existence. The highlight for me was two days' crewing the Prince Louis. Neil Wilson


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## Carl47

*Prince Louis II - Bel Espoir II.*

Update on Prince Louis II, renamed "Bel Espoir II". Latest is that the Bel Espoir II was having a refit at AJD shipyard but a violent storm tipped her over, the hull warped and structural parts split apart by several centimetres ! See here:  http://www.piriou.com/en/news/piriou-starts-building-hull-of-new-bel-espoir/4446.htm 
A sad end to the Prince Louis II ?


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## Carl47

Hi Henry97071, Would you happen to remember in which paper you saw a picture of the burned out hulk in San Francisco Bay, or even which year?


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