# Burial at sea



## Blackal (Jan 29, 2008)

Clipper Race death: Sarah Young buried at sea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sailing/35949645

Is it kosher to carry out a burial at sea, without an investigation into the death, and authorisation to dispose of the body?

Does the inability to store the body - make it a fait accompli ?

Anyone able to satisfy my curiosity?

Al


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## tiachapman (Mar 25, 2008)

attended 3 in my time at sea


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## Davie M (Apr 17, 2009)

We had one on the Baron Herries coming home from SA.Don't know what went on behind the scenes, but the body was kept in the freezer until we arrived in the UK .
I seem to remember the Old Man thought it would be more straightforward to pass the body over to the authorities rather than answer any complications on how he had died. 
When we picked up the pilot the police came aboard at the same time and took charge of the body .
Mind you this was in the days before satellite phones and every communication was in morse. 
I feel very sorry for the family and crew of the yacht where this young woman
lost her life. 
Unfortunately, it goes to prove that no matter the type or size of vessel the sea can be a dangerous place.
Davie


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

As a Chippie, Tiachapman, did you put the last stitch through the nose?

I never saw a burial at sea, only one in a Melbourne cemetery.

John T


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Considering their location and that the vessel concerned is a yacht with likely no suitable storage facilities for a body, burial at sea would be the only sensible option.
The regulations concerned do vary depending on the flag of the vessel. For example, if the incident had occurred in a British _ship,_ then there are a number of formalised actions and forms to be completed. Bodies should be retained onboard so that death can be officially certified by a doctor, however if that's not possible or practical then they can be buried at sea providing the authorities are informed. Inside the 12 mile limit a UK coroner has jurisdiction, in international waters (UK ships) it is an MCA Superintendent or "proper officer" from a UK embassy/consulate abroad. There is still a section in the "Ship Captain's Medical Guide" which deals with the preparation and practice of burial at sea, and that is the official tome to be followed.
However, since the vessel concerned in this case is a yacht, sailing in international waters and which may not even be formally registered, whether they'll take any notice of any applicable rules is anyones guess.
I think the last time a similar situation occurred in a British ship was during the delivery voyage of MERMAID from South Korea to the UK circa 1987 when one of the crew passed away. Due to their location (mid ocean, tropics) and lack of suitable storage facilities, burial at sea was the only realistic solution.

For those who wish to be buried at sea when the time comes, then it is possible however a fair amount of paperwork is required in the shape of permits etc and it's all very expensive. If memory serves there are a couple of designated areas off the UK West Coast for these ceremonies to take place.


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## brooksy (Aug 24, 2009)

There used to be designated area of Newhaven.A pal of mine was buried at sea there.I know it is expensive The Managing Director for whom we worked for payed for the cost of the tug out of his own pocket.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Just once. Death at 0600 hrs and burial two hours later.

Everything done very proper and seamanlike. Very respectful. The way to go for a seaman.

Further from James. On my ship the burial was in mid Pacific in summer 1978 and there was no question being able to keeping the body until Tokyo. The only change from the Medical Guide, the Master read the service in Welsh.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

I have organized many burials at sea during my time. In those days, the ship was not allowed in port with a body on board, so we carried out a post mortem on my hospital deck on all my ships. I was in charge of the Crew & Isolation Hospital on P&O ships as many members know. We had our own deck. The senior doctor and myself performed the PM. I re-constructed the body alone wrapping it in a sheet for our European deck crew to sew it into canvass, with weights. One of our members, Eddie Wallace sewed many bodies for me into canvass aboard Canberra! After the PM, it was my job to arranged the funeral, then commit the body to the deep using a wooden stretcher pointed at the half gunport door we had on my deck. The body was covered with the flag of their country of origin. The service was conducted by the captain with all his officers and any relatives in attendance. The service always took place at 2200, the ship slowing down. All this stuff about the last stitch going through the nose is superstitious nonsense, certainly when I was aboard anyway.

Today, bodies from cruise ships are landed because they have storage space, proper fridges, the same as I did in my mortuaries when coming ashore. I have no idea what happened aboard cargo ships, in the past, or nowadays, but as Jim rightly says, there are a number of formalized actions if in international waters, certified by a doctor, the coroner and so on. When coming ashore, my department was often involved via the coroner, and one of my former staff who works at Southampton receives bodies from cruise ships on a regular basis.

Again as Jim rightly says, burying at sea from the yacht was the only sensible option. So lets spare a thought for Sarah Young, her family and crew mates at this very sad time. RIP Sarah.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

I meant to have said, there are about three burial grounds around the UK. one being near the Needles here on the Isle of Wight, and another further along the south coast. We had many bodies washed ashore from the Needles burial ground. I identified one from false teeth [=P]


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

One outside Plymouth Sound.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Stephen J. Card said:


> One outside Plymouth Sound.



Is that a new one Stephen?

The three I knew were between Tynemouth and north Tyneside, the Needles, and between Hastings and Newhaven.


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

Not quite a burial at sea, but I remember vividly the disposal of my Dad's ashes.

As a son, citizen and mariner of the Port of Chester he could have had no more fitting end than that his ashes were scattered into the River Dee and to wash out, over the weir, downstream and out to sea. Accordingly we arranged to deposit Dad's ashes into the river at Eccleston (about three miles upstream) and the starting point of his beloved head-of-the-river rowing races. 

I took the urn and, standing on the river bank, expected them (upon being upended) to float out downstream and to sea. Not so. They were far heavier than I had anticipated and simply sank down onto the riverbed in perhaps one foot of water. I have no doubt, however, that nature would take its own course and eventually they would indeed be washed over the weir and out to sea, if perhaps not that same day. RIP, Dad, Head of the River and much else.

Other ashes were scattered on the marsh here at Parkgate. Permission from the local authorities? Testicles. No permission was sought in any of these cases. Loved ones had their ashes scattered in the places which they had known best and had loved most. As it should be. In at least one instance PC Plod enquired (Allo? Allo? Allo?), was duly informed, invited to ride his bike and kindly accepted the invitation in the spirit in which it was offered.

Of course the sea burial in this latest sad case was right and proper. Here was no Nelson, calling for carriage home in a brandy-butt.

R.I.P., Ms Young


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## tiachapman (Mar 25, 2008)

trotterdopom

no the bosun and the lampy got to do that i was to busy getting a door sorted out, but did get to share in the Tom Thumb after the committal.a toast to absent friends.


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## Graham Wallace (May 6, 2006)

I witnessed one in 1960 on the British Sovereign, a young Steward commited suicide whilst in port at Bandar Mashur and it was presumed due to a 'letter' from UK. A terrible waste!

'They', the authorities would not allow him to be buried ashore, his body was kept in the airconditioned amidships hospital(?) and then buried at sea presumably as we cleared the river/coast. The Hospital AC did not contain the smell.

I think the attached photo was pre burial, I am in the photo.

I posted this previously in a British Sovereign thread

Graham


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## Blackal (Jan 29, 2008)

James_C said:


> Considering their location and that the vessel concerned is a yacht with likely no suitable storage facilities for a body, burial at sea would be the only sensible option.
> The regulations concerned do vary depending on the flag of the vessel. For example, if the incident had occurred in a British _ship,_ then there are a number of formalised actions and forms to be completed. Bodies should be retained onboard so that death can be officially certified by a doctor, however if that's not possible or practical then they can be buried at sea providing the authorities are informed. Inside the 12 mile limit a UK coroner has jurisdiction, in international waters (UK ships) it is an MCA Superintendent or "proper officer" from a UK embassy/consulate abroad. There is still a section in the "Ship Captain's Medical Guide" which deals with the preparation and practice of burial at sea, and that is the official tome to be followed.
> However, since the vessel concerned in this case is a yacht, sailing in international waters and which may not even be formally registered, whether they'll take any notice of any applicable rules is anyones guess..


Thanks for that - makes sense.

Al (Thumb)


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## duquesa (Aug 31, 2006)

It is quite evident from the news feed available on the Clipper Race website that every legal avenue has been followed with the blessing of all related interests. A sad day for all but particularly for the crew on that yacht and a rather traumatic and unenviable task for the skipper.
I have witnessed a burial at sea on a commercial vessel and that is bad enough with space and equipment at hand. On a yacht to have to manhandle a colleagues body over the side wire must have been unpleasant indeed. I wish them all well.


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## tiachapman (Mar 25, 2008)

could have all been prevented is the worst thing why on earth was she not secured by a life line? comon sense i would have thought .


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## duquesa (Aug 31, 2006)

tiachapman said:


> could have all been prevented is the worst thing why on earth was she not secured by a life line? comon sense i would have thought .


Only one person can shed light on that and she is not around to do so.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Pompeyfan said:


> Is that a new one Stephen?
> 
> The three I knew were between Tynemouth and north Tyneside, the Needles, and between Hastings and Newhaven.




Good friend Captain Jim Holt, ex Royal Mail Lines, was buried off Plymouth Sound.

A fine send off as well. After the church the group went over to the Barbican for sausage rolls and mugs of tea from the canteen "Cap'n Jasper's" then off for a fine lunch at the hotel. Jim Holt was known as Cap'n Jasper and the mobile canteen was named him. When I knew him he was owner of Havelet Marine, Totnes. I was a delivery master for a few of tugs. A motley crowd!!!!


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Good friend Captain Jim Holt, ex Royal Mail Lines, was buried off Plymouth Sound.
> 
> A fine send off as well. After the church the group went over to the Barbican for sausage rolls and mugs of tea from the canteen "Cap'n Jasper's" then off for a fine lunch at the hotel. Jim Holt was known as Cap'n Jasper and the mobile canteen was named him. When I knew him he was owner of Havelet Marine, Totnes. I was a delivery master for a few of tugs. A motley crowd!!!!



Thanks Stephen


In addition to the three main burial sites as mentioned in #11, you can apply for a marine licence for a new site as long as evidence is supplied that the site is suitable for burial at sea. Therefore, I assume that is what happened regarding your friend, which is why I asked if it was new.

Oddly enough, I was with a friend of mine on Saturday who is a hovercraft pilot for Hovertravel here on the Isle of Wight. He took the hovercraft out the other day to scatter ashes.


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## 5036 (Jan 23, 2006)

I remember a story widely reported in the press in the 70's where an American author, Harry Groom died in New York and his last wish was to buried at sea on the Clyde. The upmarket Glasgow undertakers, Wylie and Lochhead were used to complete this end of the operation but on the orders of Mr Diack, the firm's manager, Harry Groom's body was taken from the elaborate steel casket and placed in a chipboard coffin. It was then transported some miles off the Ayrshire coast, where it was dropped into the sea. The coffin sank but immediately rose to the surface, then slowly sank again, before the lid broke free and bobbed back to the surface and was given to the ships crew by the undertakers to make a table out of.

The next day the coffin was caught in the nets of a prawn trawler. Tt was smashed on the trawler's deck as the nets were recovered and was damaged beyond repair so the crew returned Harry Groom's body back into the sea.

The corpse returned to the surface a few days later and was lifted aboard another trawler, and was given back to Wylie & Lochhead who put it in a new pine coffin but the police and press were now aware of the incident so Harry Groom was restored to his steel casket and re-committed to his final resting place in the deep.

Charged with stealing the casket, Diack claimed he hadn't used it as he felt it might not sink! He was found guilty of theft.


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## tsell (Apr 29, 2008)

trotterdotpom said:


> As a Chippie, Tiachapman, did you put the last stitch through the nose?
> 
> I never saw a burial at sea, only one in a Melbourne cemetery.
> 
> John T


We were mid Indian ocean, early 50's, when an AB, Larsen, became seriously ill with a burst stomach ulcer. The captain was instructed by radio to drain the ulcer with a syringe and three of us were ordered to strap him down to his bunk as there was no anaesthetic available.
I can still hear his screams as the huge needle was plunged into his large belly.
Without going into details, we took turns watching over him, while he made his wishes known and they were written down for him as he was too ill to do so for himself. He died as the 8 to 12 came on.
We three were overseen by the bosun as we stitched him into the weighted canvass shroud for burial.
The bosun (he hated me) gave instructions for me to take the top stitching from behind Larsen's head and down to his chin, as the others came up from the bottom.
I was a seventeen year old S.O.S. and on return to UK was to take my EDH exam. The bosun said that a question at that exam would have to do with burial at sea and I would be asked about the final stitch. Not knowing anything different, I did his bidding and worked the twine across to his nose, where I hesitated. Once again, without the details, I did as instructed with the final stitch, using my palm. At that, laughter broke out and I realised then that I had been taken for a ride.
Looking back, I'm surprised that I took it so well, but the big tot of rum no doubt played it's part in easing the chagrin of what was a very distressing episode!

Taff


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## Frank P (Mar 13, 2005)

As discussed in an earlier thread, in my time on the Royal Viking Star we did one burial at sea. Onboard we had specially made small sacks of sand that were packed around the body and the carpenter did all the necessary sewing, the Captain read the service and the body was consigned to the deep at 0600 hrs just off the coast of Panama.......


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## tom roberts (May 4, 2008)

On the cruise liners out of New York in the 50s if a passenger died he or her spouse had the option to have buried at sea or returned to New York if they were buried at sea we of the deck crowd had the job,if they were kept for home burial it was the 12to 4 watches job to take them down to the cold flats where the veg,etc was kept and during the transfer down there the body would have to be stood upright in the lifts I could go on and relate some of the tales re this episode but to the more delicate readers it might seem we were disrespectful to the deceased but let me tell you that was not so we had great respect.but it was a way of dealing with the task that lets face it was not a nice job.i recall the ships photographers took pictures of the burial I wonder if any of the deck crowd have any at home. When the wife and I were in New Zealand we stayed with a lady who's husband was buried of shore there apparently his hobbies were diving for crayfish and skydiving his burial was from a helicopter, believe me this is true I am not that irreverent to make up such a story,do any of our kiwi brethren know of this part of the coast ,the lady lived in the ponsonby area of Auckland ?.Finally for my own deep six I want my ashes thrown in the Mersey at Eastam but only when the tide is on the full ebb I don't want my ashes being flushed back up the Manchester ship canal God forbid oh I almost forgot re the cruise burials if the spouse of the deceased wished to take their loved one home is it true or just a rumour that they were charged freight for the body?,it would be a bit rich after all they had already paid for the cruise but knowing the generosity of the tight fisted shipowners it wouldn't surprise me.


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## Supercargo (Mar 15, 2014)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Just once. Death at 0600 hrs and burial two hours later.
> 
> Everything done very proper and seamanlike. Very respectful. The way to go for a seaman.
> 
> Further from James. On my ship the burial was in mid Pacific in summer 1978 and there was no question being able to keeping the body until Tokyo. The only change from the Medical Guide, the Master read the service in Welsh.


Hi Stephen / James.
That would have been Ivor Thomas. Deceased found on after deck by Slingers, when stowing the rubbish from the Bridge on 4-8 watch.

Bill


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## tiachapman (Mar 25, 2008)

was Ivor from Newport Mons


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## alan ward (Jul 20, 2009)

Only one,a deck passenger travelling from Ghana home to Nigeria,buried at sea with everyone in No.10`s,my first trip as Purser Cadet on ED`s Accra 1966.


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