# Chief Engineer



## Nutsplitter (Jan 12, 2016)

It's many a year since my chief's ticket saw salt water so to speak. Looking back on the syllabus for the certs of competency these would be today considered very limited in scope for someone who was to undertake a key managerial role in the operation of a ship. All of the focus was in a detailed understanding of the technical aspects of the job but nothing about what would today be considered an essential part of a senior management position. eg health and safety, human relations, planning, financial control, marine law and regulations, insurance etc.

Never sailing as chief myself, as I left the sea for greener pastures when the rot set in, I remember working with a variety of chiefs all of who had different backgrounds but none of whom had received any management training as would be understood today. Given the limited amount of work they did I had the feeling that certainly the older ones were carried for their certificates ,not what they contributed to the operation of the engine room dept as most of this was left to the 2/E. ( Been there , done it etc etc.).

I was told by one that some of the larger companies took prospective chief engineers into the office for a time in order to "knock some sense into them". Presumably to educate them in the company way of doing things? 

Did chief engineers receive any additional training over and above the "board of trade" certificates or were they left to flounder around and learn, or fail, by their mistakes?


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## John Gowers (Jul 18, 2018)

HI nutsplitter I never sailed as C/E on MN ships but did in later life on drilling rigs and drillships in that industry we were constantly doing one kind of management course or another along with the numerous safety courses. I renewed my ticket every five years but never had to do any extra management courses, the only new courses was a one week security course that I had to do to renew my ticket about 8 years ago and the new technical one week course was a High Voltage course, you did not have to do the hIgh Voltage course it was only required if you were going to be on a ship or rig with a high voltage generating system


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## kewl dude (Jun 1, 2008)

John Gowers said:


> High Voltage course, you did not have to do the hIgh Voltage course it was only required if you were going to be on a ship or rig with a high voltage generating system


So how high a voltage are we talking about? T2 scale?


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Hi Nutsplitter,
Welcome aboard.

My intake as an Eng/Cadet (Jan '80) was, I believe, the first to course TEC Diploma (Phase I) and TEC Higher Diploma (Phase III), previously OND and HND. Apart from the usual Heat/Electrics/Mechanics etc., we also took courses such as Supervisory & Legislative Studies and, in first year, Navigation (very basic, but fun!) along with others. 

S&LS was a mixture of management, psychology, marine law and insurance, history and other miscellaneous, but useful, stuff. We were also made aware of the duties of the 2/E and C/E and their relevance and importance. So, latterly, yes, there was, as part of the Cadet programme, additional training. 

There was also a heavy emphasis and courses on Lifting Ops, H&S, Confined Spaces etc., all of which were regularly repeated or augmented. There were no formal Risk Assessments or Method Plans in my day, but usually we would discuss prior to starting what we were going to do, the risks and individual responsibilities etc. which was much the same as today's "toolbox" talks, as the Americans call them. So, I believe, the training did, indeed, evolve.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, nowadays the training (as most education) has been downgraded. The "learner" cannot fail and, if they do, can petition endlessly the "trainer" until they pass! I was once helping my Dad grade marine fitters' course portfolios. One task was grinding in head valves. They had to include a photo of them doing the task. One person had the head on it's side with him holding the sucker-stick! Also, with the portfolio method, many lecturers just photocopy the course work and instruct the "learners" to write it up into their tasks to complete the portfolio. I suppose we could conclude that there was a high point (when the Red Duster was supreme) which then went into decline.

I sailed with Chiefs who didn't know where the ER was, probably, and others who had served their time in shipyards and engine works. A mixed bag, which one could use as guides. One 2/E's favourite saying was, "Don't tell anyone what to do if you cannot do it yourself!". A fitting leader phrase! Monkey See, Monkey Do, but Monkey has confidence in performing correctly the task at hand. 

And, were we hindered by being supremely technical oriented? No, my engineering education has held me in good stead throughout my working life in a number of different positions and industries.

One thing is for sure: You will never experience the same mangerial and team experience ashore as that at sea!

Rgds.
Dave


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## jmcg (Apr 20, 2008)

Nutsplitter

This has the makings of a super and interesting thread . Following with great interest.

BW
J


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## John Gowers (Jul 18, 2018)

kewl dude said:


> So how high a voltage are we talking about? T2 scale?


The last drillship I was on had 4000Volt (approx can't remember the exact voltage) generators and this was transformed down to 440 and then to 110, sorry no idea what a T2 scale is????

High voltage is classed as anything above 1000 volts.

Have a look at this web site seems there are loads of management type courses available as well as HV courses, security courses etc etc etc



You are being redirected...


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

when one who sailed in the 60's under the red duster, one needs just a moment to think of the then chief engineers one experienced.. They had many a foibles and some rough edges, but then if you managed to recapture some of their earlier careers> What would you have been like?
They had sailed in WW!! served in convoy duties, and again some on lone vessels carrying goods, being a target for those enemy rougue merchant traders with guns, instructed to abandon ship, or be torpedoed and having to escape the confines of the engine room and jump a lifeboat, if lucky abandoned to ones fate or arrested as a war souvenir, and discharged to a holding camp. I did sail with a Chief engineer, my first trip 2/e who i later found out was on the 'MALTA CONVOYS; not much fun for him, and a bugger for me! But at the end of the day I was here to enjoy my career, and I had my freedom, thanks to the many who like him sailed in Merchant ships IN WWII under the 'red Duster';.
BE aware of where one throws stones????


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

John, T2 wartime standard design turbo electric. Ones I regretted missing although still plenty around when I was. Google Main Engines of the T'2 Tankers (as one site taken at random).


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## John Gowers (Jul 18, 2018)

Hi Varley I remember hearing about the T2 tanker now, don't think Denholms had any during my time with them. The voltage on the drill ship was 4160VAC and it was the GSF Explorer formally known as the Hughes Glomar Explorer, built by the CIA in 1973 to lift a Russian sub converted to a drillship in 1993 and then scrapped in 2015. Great ship with great crews I was sad to leave it. Also the only US flag vessel I sailed on.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomar_Explorer


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I don't remember anything turbo-electric in the Diamond D but in 75/76 I visited one (another Texaco vessel when I was ECO on T Spain or T. London during my 'foreign holiday' from Denholm).


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## noelmavisk (Oct 14, 2012)

_I have no idea if Chiefs were given any help of any kind when given their first appointment as Chief Eng.
However when I think of what happened to me as a Jun.Eng I would have to think NO.
I served my time on steam deck auxiliaries and my first ship was a triple expansion Sam boat. But my next assignment was to a twin screw diesel powered vessel and no one had a talk with me about what was in store._


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

Interesting reads, as you/we unload our memories of a Chief Engineer. What I believed and was told until you were promoted/parachuted or applied for the post, no one could comment constructively about the decision, one had to consider and make, while under way, at sea. I am sure at the dockside bar we all had ideas??
What intrigues me is your opinion of the the Merchant Navy Ticket system as it was under the 'Board Of Trade' and the 1894 Shipping Act, and then the modifications under the 1970's merchant Shipping acts, and the role of each ticket holder C/E: 2/E and watch keeping engineer.. Were the BOARD Of Trade examinations and Oral a load of old tosh/Hat or did one question and give a thought to what these Examiners had experienced in their time at sea, in the engine room?
In My day there could be ticketed engineers, and then 'Permit Engineers' who had only had experience of one particular vessel.
Then one had to pass not only Part A -[ academic maths, sciences of engineering] of the ticket but Part B the theory and the knowledge of the plant involved in propelling a vessel over 1000BHP- and the orals. Here A Permit Engineer had to have Part A and maybe Parts B--BUT not a BOT Ticket !st and 2nd class. These were issued specifically for all vessels under the BRITISH FLAG, and there were two exams to be pasted for one to sail on any vessel, otherwise one was restricted to a Motor ship or a steam ship- One had to be aware of electrics A/C, D/C for all auxiliaries and main power plant.
'A permit Engineer' was appointed/authorized to sail on one particular named vessel only, and only in the rank or lower rank of that 'Permit'.
For gas turbine propulsion/ I am unsure off? Maybe some one out there may know, whether it is a combined steam and motor certificate for the rank of both C/E and 2/E.
As some have noted above, life at sea as an engineer is an experience?
I will enjoy reading more thoughts of what you may think.
Regards


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

makko said:


> .
> 
> I sailed with Chiefs who didn't know where the ER was, probably, and others who had served their time in shipyards and engine works. A mixed bag, which one could use as guides. One 2/E's favourite saying was, "Don't tell anyone what to do if you cannot do it yourself!". A fitting leader phrase! Monkey See, Monkey Do, but Monkey has confidence in performing correctly the task at hand.
> 
> ...


Dave,
First trip cadet. A 'old' Third Mate, Donald L Ross, said the same words to me. I took the words two different ways. One was as you have it here, 'Money See, Monkey Do.' The second was, and just as important, 'Have respect for your shipmates. They have been around longer than you have and they will know more than you ever will do.' 

The other words that D.L. Ross said that first meeting on the deck of NAESS PIONEER in summer 1970... "You call me 'Sir' and I will call you 'Sir'. The difference is that you mean it, I won't!"

Stephen


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Yes, Stephen. My Dad's advice hwen I first went to sea was the same, learn from the "gang" as they had been around a lot more! (Even more so, don't have "words" with them ever or they would eat you alive!) Also, lend a hand and show them that you knew how to do a job. 

I always treated the crowd, both engine and deck, with respect and it was returned. I once had an accident priming the fuel lines prior to Stand By. HFO down the engine side, an obvious fire hazard. Within less than ten minutes the headman had summoned the off duty crew and all came down to clean the engine! The cost - three cases of Fanta! It was all tidied up before the Chief came down and Stand By notified.

There was a very strange C/E that I sailed under who, before inspections, would deposit a Jobby in someone's toilet and then point it out to the Master! Obviously, the Master knew his fetish and just ignored him. The Master used to laugh about it with us, even telling us in a very stern Master voice,"Engineers, inspection is not of the colour, texture and size of your Jobby's, please take note!".

Rgds.
Dave


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## Ed Russell (Oct 19, 2020)

I got my seconds ticket in 1961 so I started looking for a seconds job. I saw an advert in the papers looking for a 2/E for a Grain carrier & I thought that's different from tankers (I started with Shell, another story there), so I applied & got the job. The ship 'Seaway Star' turned out to be an ex Maersk tanker, which had the tanks & access's removed & 2 large hold took there place. I boarded the ship in the evening & introduced myself to the C/E & off to my cabin. The next day I asked about the boiler treatment & was told that the treatment people told him that there was a lot of scale in the boiler & to treat it every second day. But, he said he was putting the same dosage every day. I said ' that's dangerous. It could lead to a collapsed furnace'. His reply was 'I know what I'm doing'. There's nothing I can do, so I let him look after the treatment.
The next day we left for the USA & the C/E was getting us to open up & check all sort of cooler etc. All a complete waste of time. One of his phobia's was the steam engine driving the boiler FD fan. The excuse was 'the bearings were knocking'. I can't remember the make but I know that there always sound like that. Anyway, we had to strip it out & check it. According to the manual the clearances was 2 to 10 thou & it was something like 4 thou, so it was still in it's limits, but he was not satisfy so we went to 2 thou clearance. Next day tap-tap again. He said to me 'You didn't do a good job'. I found a large tub of Molyslip, so I put in a large handful of it into the crankcase. That worked for 2 days before the knocking started again.
We eventually arrived at the USA & into the lakes separating the USA from Canada. In we went every few days working on that dam engine. By the way, when we were working on the bearings, the funnel used to put out lovely thick black smoke. Between lakes there were locks & one evening we entered a lock, a helper & I went up for breathers, it was just before sunset & I thought it was getting dark very quickly. I looked up & saw the thick black smoke went up about 20 feet & started to spread out horizontally. There were a few people strolling around watching the ship & they suddenly they realised that it was getting dark, looked up, saw the smoke & ran off to their cars & drove off. I gave my helper a nudge, pointed up & said 'lets get down to those bearings'. We just got down & the C/E arrived while I was measuring the bearing clearance. He was trying to get me to quickly put the motor back together but I said ' it's 4 thou I need to get it to 2 thou'. No the chief wanted to get it back together QAP. I'm sure the Captain told him to stop the smoke. That was the last time we had to 'fix' that engine.
We carried on. Later the C/E said we were to bunker. Yes, you guested correctly. We had to bunker first. Who was going to be in charge. Yes the C/E. I checked out the system, but the C/E took over. We started bunkers & I left them to it. I suddenly felt something was wrong so I went to see what was going on. The 4th was checking the levels of the FO tank, the last tank to be filled, & I noticed that the air was coming out of the sounding pipe. I went straight to the C/E who was just a few yards away & told him there was something wrong but he said 'everything is under control'. But he insisted that everything was OK. The 4th was calling out the levels, which were going up & down like a yo-yo, but the C/E was just saying 'Everything is OK'. I went up on deck & when I got there I heard a hissing noise. The vent to that tank was closed, so I ran to the ships side & yelled to the operator to shut the oil off. I then ran down & shouted to the 4th to plug off the sounding pipe. He hesitated, so I shouted again, including a number of swear words. As he reached for the plug, the oil overtook him, showing what a lovely fountain fuel oil can make. The C/E ran past me & was shouting 'where's the !!! operator'. I said 'Shutting the oil off'. The oil was running along the deck & down into the lake & operator was now looking up at my torch lighted stream of oil into the lake. 
After that episode, I thought surely nothing else can go wrong! Yes it did. A few days later on our way home the Chief Steward was found in his cabin on the deck with a heart attack. Tied up on the side of the canal radioed for an ambulance. Waited. Called for a taxi. Taken by taxi to hospital where he died shortly afterwards.
Just before we left the USA a lorry arrived with a crate onboard, which was lifted & put into the paint locker in the bows & off we went back home. So the Chief Steward came home with us. 
Surely that's enough for one trip, but NO. Two days before getting into UK waters I reported to the C/E that the starboard furnace had collapsed but not leaking. I could n't get off that ship fast enough.
Those who write about the C/E didn't know how to get into the Engine Room should consider themselves lucky & not having a C/E who thinks he knows everything except common sense.


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

A trip to remember, Ed!! But then again, it gave you valuable lessons as a first trip 2/E and something to remember when you finally became C/E! 

It is the hard ships that you learn/practice more on! Super P's only had 2 auxys, so, it was almost, one week one major, one week the other major! I thought that was "heavy". The Barber Priam had 5 auxys. Ooh!, thought I, redundancy and a laid back maintenance schedule - I soon got a rude wake up to reality! 500 running hour schedule, and a dread of being in port too long because all five were running continuously!

Rgds.
Dave


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## George18 (5 mo ago)

My Grandad was apparently a well respected chief engineer out of Hull, on Boston Deep Sea Fisheries Ships. For a good many years, including surviving the sinking of H77 Prince Charles


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## Ed Russell (Oct 19, 2020)

makko said:


> A trip to remember, Ed!! But then again, it gave you valuable lessons as a first trip 2/E and something to remember when you finally became C/E!
> 
> It is the hard ships that you learn/practice more on! Super P's only had 2 auxys, so, it was almost, one week one major, one week the other major! I thought that was "heavy". The Barber Priam had 5 auxys. Ooh!, thought I, redundancy and a laid back maintenance schedule - I soon got a rude wake up to reality! 500 running hour schedule, and a dread of being in port too long because all five were running continuously!
> 
> ...


I did my learning on the Shell tanker the Nicania. The 2\e was a permit 2/e & thought he knew everything & used to be a real pain in the butt. Every time I met him in the Engine Room he would look down his nose at me and say 'You'll never be an Engineer'. The 3/E was a kiwi & we were friends & he married an English girl & came over to the UK while their children were young & would visit my wife & I. Ihad the pleasure of him telling me he met that 2/e, 2 years after I left Shell & told him I was now a qualified 2/E. I was told all he could say was 'Oh'. He was still a permit 2/e. About 3 years later they met again & was told I was now a qualified C/E. I would love to have seen his face. I am sure it was him that gave me a bad report as Shell would not renew my contract. The c/e on the Nicania used to drink a case of beer a day & had no idea of who was who. Pissed all the time. What that 2/e didn't know was I joined a Salvesen new cargo ship the Saldanah as 3/E. I only had my part A of the Seconds ticket as I was 5 months short of sea time to be able to take part B.


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## Ed Russell (Oct 19, 2020)

Ed Russell said:


> I did my learning on the Shell tanker the Nicania. The 2\e was a permit 2/e & thought he knew everything & used to be a real pain in the butt. Every time I met him in the Engine Room he would look down his nose at me and say 'You'll never be an Engineer'. The 3/E was a kiwi & we were friends & he married an English girl & came over to the UK while their children were young & would visit my wife & I. Ihad the pleasure of him telling me he met that 2/e, 2 years after I left Shell & told him I was now a qualified 2/E. I was told all he could say was 'Oh'. He was still a permit 2/e. About 3 years later they met again & was told I was now a qualified C/E. I would love to have seen his face. I am sure it was him that gave me a bad report as Shell would not renew my contract. The c/e on the Nicania used to drink a case of beer a day & had no idea of who was who. Pissed all the time. What that 2/e didn't know was I joined a Salvesen new cargo ship the Saldanah as 3/E. I only had my part A of the Seconds ticket as I was 5 months short of sea time to be able to take part B.


I've seen a section about United Baltic Corp. & that reminded me of another incident when I joined her as the 2/E. 
The ship was the Baltic Sun & the run was London to Gydena in Poland. We docked at Hays Wharf, which in those days was just upstream of the Tower Bridge opposite the Tower of London. The wharf is now an open green with a tower shaped like a large *****.
We used to return to London on a Sunday afternoon , at high tide, the bridge would open, steam through go upstream a bit, turn & dock at the wharf. We would be having lunch in the saloon on the upper deck. This was located aft with windows round 3 sides of it & we would be having our usual Sunday lunch, Roast chicken, with people gaping at us.
Anyway, I was the 2/E & took over from a permit 2/e. He told me that when the starboard engine was running for 'some time' when stopped it wouldn't start again until you cleared the 'crap' from the air start lines filter. I asked what was the colour of the 'crap' & was told 'just ordinary'. I suspected a leaking air start valve but couldn't prove it. We left London & at the Kiel Canal it failed to start again. Checked filter, full of carbon, cleaned with a new wipe, put in my pocket & later took it to the c/e showed it to him. He said it was only some crap. 
When we docked in Gydena I replaced all the air start valves & told the 4/e to overhaul them. All he did was put them back on the rack. The c/e asked me why did I change them. I told him that if I was right there wouldn't be anymore trouble. Which there wasn't. 
At Hays Wharf at low tide, we used to sit on the bottom of the river bed. To keep the genny's running we changed over to after peak ballast tank. The tide would came in about 0230 every day & we would get up & change over to sea suction & the Greaser would pump out the after peak & top it up with fresh river water. Needless to say, the water we were use for cooling was now more mud than water. I suggested waiting till 0700 to change over, but No. As a result we had to buy chemicals to clear the mud from the tanks.
I had many a run in's with that c/e. We had 4 alternators, (AC instead of DC) & I was having trouble with No.3. Lecky told me that I wasn't starting it correctly. I asked him to show me, but all he said was I would have to find out myself. Anyway, the c/e wanted me to start overhauling No.4. I said 'sods law says work on No.4 & no.3 will break down. I was told that was rubbish. So we started no.4. Entering Gydena No.3 threw all the genny's off line. I went rushing down got the 2 genny's on, shut off the Frig hold, (for the pig meat we carried from Poland), & got back on line. The c/e came down about 5 mins later with lecky. He demanded why I shut off the Frig. until told him the situation. It was late pm so we waited until the next day to start getting no.4 overhauled. The next day lecky didn't turn up until the morning smoko & wondered why I didn't cover for him, & him & the c/e started looking for the fault in No.3.
Shortly after starting work again, I looked at No.3, it dawned on me the reason for the breakdown. I got down looked at No.3 & the c/e told me to get on with No.4. I said OK with a big smile & started working on No.4. The 3/E said to me 'You know whats wrong'. I smiled at him & said 'Yes'. I explained that the coils need to be supplied with dc & as these gennys when modern there wasn't a dc genny connected to the unit but they had a chip, which was about 12" dia with 2 sturdy legs.
Needless to say I paid off that trip & as I was living in London, I paid a visit at am smoko & the 3/E gave me the thumbs up & I took great pleasure rubbing it in to the lecky & the c/e. 
The only thing I missed about that ship was at lunch time I could leave the ship, walk under Tower Bridge, turn right into the Courage pub connected to the brewery & have a liquid lunch with a packet of crisps.
Little did I know that some years later I would start at the new Courage Brewery in Reading, during the last stages of building & started as a Shift Engineer in charge of the maintenance. 
I could tell more about that ship & the c/e but I think nuf sed..


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