# Navy cuts 'will shatter economy' ( BBC )



## Gavin Gait (Aug 14, 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7516642.stm


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

Not surprised any more, next it will be Portsmouth and then Faslane. Knowing our present Government and PM any ships we have will no doubt soon be based in Brest. (Cloud)


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

SANTOS
Like you I am also not surprised of any stupid moves made by politicans.
If you go to the website they work for you, click UK at the top and then MPs they all come up in alphabetical order, most are involved one way or another with firms that gain contracts, many have never had a job in the real world.
Robert


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## McCloggie (Apr 19, 2008)

Will they every get their act together?

First it was Portsmouth that was cut back and everything went to Devonport now its back to Portsmouth again - never mind how much money (UK taxpayers money) that may have been spent in developing the facilities and infrstructure needed by Guz (sorry Plymouth) to act as the main base.

Where will the new carriers go/be based - will this involve spendig even more money on new facilities to replace those that existed only a few years ago and could still be used? The waste of money by the MoD and the politicians is frightening - particularly when it could be used better where it really motters and that is on ships and manpower.

Really the fact that this is being discussed at all shows that the government and its fellow travellers have absolutely no regard for and give no support to the armed forces and in particular the RN.

Sadly Santos' comment has a ring of truth about it - there are plenty of people in Westminster and even more in Brussels who would love to see a European Navy with each country contributing a minimum number of vessels, based at various European ports under a unified command from Brussels.

Das days indeed.

McC


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## Chouan (Apr 20, 2006)

Is Devonport a special case then? 
When the steelworks at Consett was closed it shattered the local economy, from which the town has yet to recover (no, I have no connection with Consett).
When British Shipbuilders on the Tees, at Haverton Hill, was closed it shattered the local economy. 
When British Shipbuilders on the Wear was closed it shattered the local economy. 
When the varous yards on the Clyde closed they too shattered the local economies, as did the closure of yards on the Tyne. 
I haven't even mentioned the closure of our coalmining industry and the effect that that had on the local economies, be it in S.Yorks, S.Wales, Scotland, Notts, or Co.Durham!
Yet talk about a risk to Devonport and its a disaster and something should be done.


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## cboots (Aug 16, 2004)

Thank you Chouan, I was wondering when someone was going to point that out. Whilst I feel every sympathy with anyone who is loosing their livelihood, or any community loosing a key industry, it is by no means unique to naval towns but is a consequence of being overly reliant on a single industry. Much mockery seems to be made of the notion of a single European defence force; why? It strikes me as a good idea. If nations must waste their scarce resources on all sorts of war bling, why not share the cost? If I am not going to attack you, and you are not going to attack me, why duplicate when we can share one big stick between us?
CBoots


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

cboots said:


> Such mockery seems to be made of the notion of a single European defence force; why? It strikes me as a good idea. If nations must waste their scarce resources on all sorts of war bling, why not share the cost? If I am not going to attack you, and you are not going to attack me, why duplicate when we can share one big stick between us?
> CBoots



We don't want European defence force because it would be run by unelected faceless bureaucrats in Brussels, the same people who come up with potty rules like scrapping bent bananas, twisted carrots and loads of other stupid rules that even a Kindergarten playground would not think up. Do we really want to put our navy in charge of this lot?. I think not. Our ancestors who lost their lives defending our country liberating those who now want to tell us what to do must be turning in their graves. We owe it to them if nobody else to keep our navy, our bases *and* our country to run in the manner that we elect our politicians to do, not what those in Brussels who none of us have voted for want.

David


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

DAVID
Well said
Robert


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## LEEJ (Mar 25, 2006)

Gentlemen,
I am not taking sides, but those members who are anti European because of the lack of accountability are often the same who critize there own govt for the same thing.My point being we dont live in the democracy you think we do.
Rgds,
Leej.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Leej

At the moment our Government are no different than the faceless unelected mob in Brussels. Gordon Brown has signed away a lot of our rights, far more than people realize without giving us the chance to vote on it. I am not anti European or anti anything. I can just see what is happening to our once proud country. That is not being anti, it is being realistic of what is going on around us and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it until the next election if indeed there will be free elections in two years time. We will have little left to vote for, everything could be signed over to Brussels by then with no way back (Cloud) 

David


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

Well I am anti-europian. I want our old England back, with us deciding how we want our country run - and how we want our defence forces, Army, Navy and Airforce run. I hate these faceless bureaucrats and all they stand for. They are only in it for themselves and what they can get out of it, if anyone believes they are in it for our good then forget it.

We should never have gone into Europe it has only brought us pain with immigration out of control and stupid and idiotic rules and regulations. Our country is not our own anymore, its lost its identity and is ruled by people who dont live here and who have historically been our enemies since time immemorial and who my relatives and yours died fighting, to protect our country from their kind of rule. That rule has now come in surreptitiously, blindly encouraged by useless so called politicans who are only interested in their power, their pay and their expenses and who have sold our beliefs and traditions down the river without us having a say in the matter. Whats to say these so called brother states are not ever going to become again our enemies. What price a Europian Defence Force then - we will have no defence because they will have our ships and our planes - consider yourselves already invaded.

You shout so what about Devonport, what about the others, Yes the miners went, yes the steel workers went, yes shipbuilding went, WHERE did all that go? into EUROPE thats where. Foreign steel, Foreign coal and Foreign built ships, oh and dont forget Foreign Gas. We have gone from a world power to a tiny europian state ruled from Brussels, taxed to the hilt and for what, useless public services, dirty hospitals, greedy politicians and essential foodstuffs and fuel at unacceptable prices. Dont talk to me about Europe, especially from countries that are not affected and never will be.

Chris (Cloud)


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## Brian Locking (Jul 8, 2008)

LEEJ said:


> Gentlemen,
> I am not taking sides, but those members who are anti European because of the lack of accountability are often the same who critize there own govt for the same thing.My point being we dont live in the democracy you think we do.
> Rgds,
> Leej.


Leej,

You talk of democracy and I note your avatar looks like Castro. Please explain!!


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

*Naval Cuts Will Shatter Economy*

Although the Navy cuts may, or may not, shatter the economy of Devonport, I am far more concerned that the failure to cut the two ridiculous carriers may yet shatter the economy of Britain.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Very well said Chris, far better than I could put it.

I try not to be negative, so try not be anti this or anti that. At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding as they say and the truth is that those in Brussels helped by our politicians have done what Hitler could never do, bring this country to its knees.

We have become everything you say. I could see it coming years ago, but the country has only just woken up when it could be too late. I think Europe can be good for us as partners, but not run by it. I don't think any member state want to lose their identity, but the current leaders does. They want a European super state, there is no doubt about that.

Before the last election I wrote to our local MP. I predicted that when he got back into power, Tony Blair would deny us a vote on Europe breaking his election promise. I also said that when he stands down as PM, he would become President of Europe. After the election our MP wrote to me congratulating me for predicting correctly. Blair is yet to become President of Europe, but watch this space?!.

Like I say, I am not anti anything if it is for the good of our country and its people whatever party are in power. We only get one life so lets work together to improve it without political bias or personal greed. And as Chris said, lets get our country back. That means our own laws, own army, air force and navy. We once ruled the waves. No wonder other countries are so jealous and want to take all that away from us without a shot being fired.

David


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## ROBERT HENDERSON (Apr 11, 2008)

CHRIS
I cannot add anything to what you have said as I feel the same way.
Unnder the thirty year rule do***ents were declassified showing Heath had been warned as to what would happen to our various industries. He said he felt it was a price worth paying as he pocketed a personal cheque for £10,000
Robert


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## Chouan (Apr 20, 2006)

British shipbuilding, steel and coal wasn't destroyed by europe, or even by Europe, it was destroyed by British politicians to fulfil their own British political agenda; nothing to do with Europe. Anti-Europeans often use this kind of thing as a reason for wanting to leave Europe, yet it was the largely anti-European Party that destroyed those British industries.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Chouan, I don't think you can blame politicians completely.

When I lived in New Zealand in the late 60s and early 70s I seem to recall British workers including seafarers doing a pretty good job of destroying their own industry by going on strike. Then when I came home and had left the sea, we had the winter of discontent, couldn't even bury our dead. I refused to go on strike even though others in the NHS were. I let bodies out past picket lines, hoping they would get buried, families already in deep grief, so why make that grief worse for a few extra quid. Greed knows no bounds be it politicians, employers or the shop floor. There is no one reason for the demise of British industry, so it is time we stopped blaming each other and work together because the perfect person has never been born whether in power or sweeping the streets.

It does not matter what political persuasion one is or whatever other persuasion whether anti this or pro this. Just look around you, the country and indeed world is in a mess and we are all to blame leaders and ordinary folk alike. Crazy European laws means farmers are subsidised, yet African people are starving to death. Farmers have to dump crops that do not come up to potty European standards rather than giving them to the starving. The world has gone totally loopy. Nobody in any country should be starving to death in the 21st century. Food wasted on cruise ships for example would feed a starving nation.

For goodness sake lets stop blaming each other. This thread is about naval cuts that will shatter the economy. There is a reason for this, just look across the channel. In my former job I could not afford to be biassed, that is why I never take sides. We had to report what we saw even if it went against everything we were taught medically. I apply the same thinking to life in general.

Whether pro or anti European one thing is for certain, carry on the way we are we will have no country to call our own, and no navy to call our own. 

David


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## cboots (Aug 16, 2004)

Just for the record I was still living in the UK when it joined the then EEC, signed up by Ted Heath under largely the same terms rejected by the previous Labour government. I personally campaigned against joining and I also campaigned for a no vote in the referendum that the Party forced on Harold Wilson when he was returned as prime minister in 1974. However, the UK is now thoroughly embedded in the EU and is unlikely to leave it under a government of any of the major parties. A lot of emotion and hot air has been expounded in many of the posts above and I can't help but wonder what some of the expounders themselves did at the time of joining and in the referendum, which, incidentally, produced a resounding yes vote. We can all rant and rave about "faceless bureaucrats" and "greedy politicians" from the comfort of a chair in front of a computer screen but, at the end of the day, you are the ones who put them there; so what are you going to do about getting rid of them? When I see the amount of vitriol that spills forth when any alternative politics are mentioned on this site, you will pardon me for being a triffle cynical as to your likely answers.
CBoots


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## LEEJ (Mar 25, 2006)

Brian Locking said:


> Leej,
> 
> You talk of democracy and I note your avatar looks like Castro. Please explain!!


Brian
No problem, but this is not the forum.You can PM me with any question you want.

Rgds,
LeeJ


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## stein (Nov 4, 2006)

If a foreigner might be allowed to butt in: The nation state is dissolving, the multinationals are growing more multinational, people in large masses move around to where the money is - and there's not much politicians can do about it but try to slow down the process a little. Personally I see no alternative hope for keeping a little political power in worker's hands other than in unions etc becoming multinational too. - Which will of course add to the dissolvment of the nation state.
As for the EU, an important part of the idea behind it, beside offsetting the power of the USA, and enhancing the European economy, was of course to avoid more European wars. (Might I remind you Gentlemen that even before Hitler, there were unannounced and unprovoked attacks on sovereign states. Like Nelson et Co's attack on Denmark/Norway, including the terror bombing of Copenhagen and the large enforced starvation of Norwegians through the English blockade. That Britain no longer rules the waves is not really cause for lamentation over here :sweat
By the way, reading this thread, and one under a naval portrait in the gallery, one gets the impression that Britain is going under: reading the news one gets another impression. As I understand it, Britain is doing fairly well, little unemployment, passable health service etc - no? 
Finally: Moderators: Please feel free to delete this post if I've once again overstepped the limits of my rights here! I'm truly partly joking, I'm not spoiling for a fight with the Royal Navy!(==D) . Regards, Stein.


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

cboots said:


> Just for the record I was still living in the UK when it joined the then EEC, signed up by Ted Heath under largely the same terms rejected by the previous Labour government. I personally campaigned against joining and I also campaigned for a no vote in the referendum that the Party forced on Harold Wilson when he was returned as prime minister in 1974. However, the UK is now thoroughly embedded in the EU and is unlikely to leave it under a government of any of the major parties. A lot of emotion and hot air has been expounded in many of the posts above and I can't help but wonder what some of the expounders themselves did at the time of joining and in the referendum, which, incidentally, produced a resounding yes vote. We can all rant and rave about "faceless bureaucrats" and "greedy politicians" from the comfort of a chair in front of a computer screen but, at the end of the day, you are the ones who put them there; so what are you going to do about getting rid of them? When I see the amount of vitriol that spills forth when any alternative politics are mentioned on this site, you will pardon me for being a triffle cynical as to your likely answers.
> CBoots


And its very easy for you to comment from the comfort of a chair in front of a computer screen from where you are on the opposite side of the planet, not at all effected by the things we have to put up with in recent years. Years when you were not resident here. Why dont you come back and give us a hand in getting rid of them - woops there goes a squadron of those pigs again.

Chris.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Cboots

We did not put those in Brussels in office. The country voted Labour in the last election believing that we would get to vote on Europe regarding the hated treaty. I did not believe it predicting Blair would change his mind. My predictions were correct, he fooled the nation, and Brown denied us as well. Opinion polls suggest a resound no to the European Treaty that Ireland voted no to. This is very different to Heath and Wilson years and I for one was against that. We cannot get rid of the present UK politicians until the next election. If you still lived here, I am sure you would have weighed matter up being on the doorstep voted the same as the first time given the chance, but of course we have not been given the chance.

Stein

Many thanks for your input. It is very great to have the point of view of other countries.

I was today in Portsmouth for Meet Your Navy day weekend. These navy cuts was discussed and past and present naval personnel are very concerned and delighted we are discussing it. I met up with a former work colleague, a pathologist who served as a doctor in the RN. We mixed with others past and present. The Red Arrows paid a visit at 1700. Watching the best air display team in the world brought home just how important British pilots and British forces are. Our navy was in fine form today. Yes, OUR navy, not Europe. This was very much the message in Portsmouth today. The only down side is that I forgot my camera. After getting over there I remembered I had left the bloody thing at home having left in a hurry. When I got home it was by the door, where I put it so that I would not forget?!!.

David


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## Chouan (Apr 20, 2006)

You don't think that the Navy people that you met might have been just a little bit biased do you?

"Chouan, I don't think you can blame politicians completely."

Closure of Consett, political decision, made by politicians for political reasons.
Closure of British Shipbuilders, political decision, made by politicians for political reasons (Smiths on the Tees still had orders to fulfil!).
Closure of British coalmining industry, political decision, made by politicians for political reasons.
All were closed because of a poliical agenda; who else could you blame?


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

Chouan said:


> it was the largely anti-European Party that destroyed those British industries.





Chouan:Closure of Consett said:


> First you blamed the Anti Europian Party, now you are blaming the Politicians, !!!!!!!!!!


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## lesbryan (May 30, 2008)

Chouan said:


> You don't think that the Navy people that you met might have been just a little bit biased do you?
> 
> "Chouan, I don't think you can blame politicians completely."
> 
> ...


All except the last that was a vendetta and revenge for her having to climb down earlier on she just could not wait it was all planned and when the deed was done it was a springboard for all the industrial carnage that went on after !!!(MAD)


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## cboots (Aug 16, 2004)

If I were still resident in the UK, which I am very glad not to be, not that our politicians are any better, I would, frankly, forget about leaving the EU, it just aint gonna happen. I would campaign for a more democratic EU; the downside of that is that once it becomes more democratic, Westminster is going to have to cede more powers to it, and that will more than likely include common foreign and defence policies. Looking at it from the outside it is far easier to see the advantages of a powerful European Union; I am not saying that we were wrong to oppose entry, but the policy and strategy of remaining outside would have needed to be far different to what they would have been as a member. Britain's problem is that successive governments have adopted neither type of strategy. At the age that I suspect most of the contributors to this thread are, dreaming of the past, Albion's greatness, and the empire, does give one a certain warm feeling, the knack is to remember that it is all just a dream, the world has changed.
CBoots


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

You are right Seaboots, It is easier to see the big picture from afar. Stand back and it all comes into clearer focus and to us in the Antipodes the European Union looks to be a logical frame work for the economic, social and security good of the area. 
Nationalistic Nostalgia might be good for the soul but not necessarily good for the country


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Sorry chaps but if you were living here I think you would see things differently. I have family and friends in Australia, one was over for the FA Cup Final and he was appalled at what is happening to the country of his birth saying how glad he is that do not live here now. He said he had no idea it was that bad despite good news coverage these days. And surprise surprise, so do all the other EU member states it seems. They have all been denied a vote like we have. Only Ireland were giving a vote on the new treaty and of course they voted no. Yet France voted out the old treaty hence the need for a new worded one, the new being the same in all but name. 

As things are going Cboots, I cannot see the EU ever being democratic. That is the problem. I can think of no democratic nation that would vote to be controlled by those not elected. That is what we are being asked to do, and we are not standing for it. This is not so much nostalgia, but trying to stop what looks like the beginning of European dictatorship with unelected people in Brussels already telling us what to do. Yes, on paper it looks very nice, a sound single economy, social and security, the good of the area and so on. But it will never work like that. We are all different countries, different ways of life different ideas, different everything. We can work together very well to a certain extent as we have for many years as a Common Market. I was against that idea at first, but the ties that has brought us with Europe business wise and so has been very good and would be a disaster if we pulled out of Europe altogether. However, this treaty is going too far. As I have said before, we need to be in Europe, but not run by it. We can never become as one nation, one union, one Europe. We don't want it and neither I think do other member countries.

We have never been a union with America, but we have always worked together very well keeping the peace as we know it. Like it or not, we depend on the USA. Does anybody seriously believe that a European strike force would replace NATO?. If we had our own strike force and America pulled put we would be in dire straights. As the saying goes, keep the devil you know.

Chouan

I agree that politicians make almighty cock ups. This particular government is ruining the country. They inherited the best state of economy of any incoming government and for a while were doing very well, better than those they took over from keeping and improving everything they opposed in opposition and even adding to it. But that has all gone, all frittered away, and the country is broke again borrowing heavily despite taxing us more than any government in history with hidden stealth taxes etc. We are all feeling the pinch and it will get worse.

This thread is about navy cuts and that is all to do with this governments mismanagement of our economy. Okay, it has been made worse due to matters out of their control, but I think we are one of the most taxed countries in the world certainly on petrol. So where is the money going, and where has it gone to?. What has Brown done with our money?. Wherever it has gone it is affecting our navy, causing the cuts losing yet more jobs and running our navy down. This is a shipping site and we should all be defending our navy, and if that means being anti Europe, so be it.

But politicians can't take all the blame all the time. The winter of discontent for example brought the then Labour government down. Unions have played their part over the years which has not been for the good of their members, jobs being lost that may have remained had they not been so demanding. Greed is not a one way street caused by the dreaded rich and politicians, we are all in this together. As yet another saying goes, it takes two to tango. As long as we have this mentality of blaming the other person be it politician or whatever, we will never achieve anything. And we will never achieve anything if we go down the road of unelected people running our lives. That is a different matter of course because if we lose our democratic rights in a European super state then it is indeed a one way street which is what we in this country and possibly residents of all other EU member states want to avoid, but if we are denied a vote, how can we?. 

David


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## lesbryan (May 30, 2008)

The price of oil is out of the governments control !!.O k i for one think they should lower the duty vat etc . The problem is with thr shieks !!(greed)make the infidel suffer !!.And also if you looked in the papers earlier this week as the oil price dropped !.Thyere was an article which read on the lines of .the speculaters did not know how much oil they had hoarded so they released some .Nothing to do with government !!.also I remember paying 15% interest on my mortage and over 3000.000 firms going bust the working man been crippled houses been taken back (the right to buy was given )It was given so everybody baught then woe interest rates went sky high millions lossed there jobs what happened they were all evicted co's they could not pay .Well i certainly DO NOT WANT TO SEE THAT AGAIN !!.iT It is a very trying time not just for our government but for the world .Of course you will always get the greedy firms shops supermarkets .There transport goes up 5% so they go and shave 10% on !!Well ive had my rant !!i could go on and on But i wont


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## Peter4447 (Jan 26, 2006)

Gentlemen
May I remind you that this thread is about the effect that cutbacks would have on Plymouth if the Royal Navy frigates that are based at the Devonport Naval Base were moved to Portsmouth.
Peter
Moderating Team


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