# Kiwis to be pals again!



## DickGraham

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44210833
Thank goodness NZ are going to be friends with us again after Brex**** so hopefully we won't starve!
However........... there is no British Merchant Navy as there was pre '73 so it will be foreign ship owners who are going to profit from it - no income whatsoever from shipping for the UK govt. - that will be costly!


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## Erimus

Even in 1973 there were very few reefer type vessels owned by fully UK companies and only Blue Star and Shaw Savill had container vessels actually operating out of NZ then.....this is prior to ACT and OCL coming out as combined carriers.....Only the German Columbus Line took a hard line on building some container vessels for that trade......they then became Hamburg Sud......a long story.

Silence of the lambs perhaps!¬

geoff


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## Samsette

Still pals with Canada, trusting our shipyards with an extensive, one year, refit to two of their frigates. One is already here in Esquimalt and I guess the other will arrive after completion of the first job.

It does seem like a long way to go for a refit but, I suppose it was tendered out and our yard won.


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## trotterdotpom

Erimus said:


> Even in 1973 there were very few reefer type vessels owned by fully UK companies and only Blue Star and Shaw Savill had container vessels actually operating out of NZ then.....this is prior to ACT and OCL coming out as combined carriers.....Only the German Columbus Line took a hard line on building some container vessels for that trade......they then became Hamburg Sud......a long story.
> 
> Silence of the lambs perhaps!¬
> 
> geoff


The longest lasting picket line ever was that by the Seamen's Union of Australia outside the Columbus Line offices in Brisbane. Tried to Google it to find out how long it lasted but somehow got diverted to the Victoria's Secret website.

John T


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## spongebob

There was a court case in the US a few days ago whereby the parents of a 30 year old single male sought to have their son evicted from their home as he had made no cash or effort contributions over the years.
The judge found in favour of the parents.
Perhaps this was how New Zealand felt in the 1970's as our mother country gave us the bums rush when she cuddled up to a new man called EU. 
The difference to that son's situation is that we had been an obedient and contributing member of the British Empire through two world wars and a huge focus of perhaps thousands of British Merchant Navy ships , NZShipping, Port Line, SS&A, Federal Lines , Blue Star, and others that had plied the dangerous seas to provide all possible sustenance to the Old Dart in those times of need.
Without wanting to over dramatise this situation I can say that I was a close by observer of the effects this British action had on our communities as I did business with Dairy processors , Freezing Works, and other export orientated NZ Companies that had modelled their production and expansions on the ongoing demands of Britain. 
Dairy farmers poised increasing their herds and production, freezing works reduced activity, some shut down, and our Apple and Pear producers poised their plantings and all were angst about the ways and means of pending future British market allotments. 
The BBC news article attached to post#1 pretty must describes the general public feelings .
Luckily a free trade agreement with Australia gave some relief but a lot of hard negotiation that gave us trade toe holds with Japan , China and other Asian countries became our saviour and these agreements have blossomed as our products won favour in those regions to reach the present day levels that see us now firmly established .
An announcement a few days ago from both France and Germany that the EU is prepared to negotiate new trade agreements with both NZ and Australia and beyond the existing restrictive ones seems to be a possible slight to Britain as she prepares to leave the EU and perhaps try to reconnect with the long lost Commonwealth relatives .
12000 plus miles to steam and two or three Oceans to cross makes it improbable that the past shipping routes could become viable again and anyway the likes of Merck or Cisco are no doubt there ready to pounce. 

Bob


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## Somerton

Bob , I completely agree with your sentiments . It was a bad day for the UK when we went into the EEC as it was then . I sailed with Port Line in the1950/60 ,s and have many happy memories of the long stays we had in both Australia and New Zealand . I just look forward to the day when we are clear of the EU . No offence to our fellow SN members who reside there . Alex .


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## GazzaW

I'm afraid that New Zealand has moved on since the 70s. We can no longer even identify our exports to the UK as they are lumped into the EU figures and the EU is only third on the list of our trading partners behind China and Australia. I doubt the UK is even in the top ten. Our kids are limited to a grudging two year stay by UK Immigration for their working holidays which has led to a gradual erosion of traditional ties. No Kiwi under the age of forty can recall the pre-EU era. It will take a lot of work to rebuild a close relationship.


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## Pat McCardle

Captain Charles Upham V.C.& Bar knew what would happen when Britain sold our Commonwealth out. I'll be visiting New Zealand again from February 2019 to keep the ties with the Kiwi's friendly.


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## barrypriddis

UK has a lot to do to regain any sort of trust from commonwealth countries after we shamefully abandoned them.


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## ART6

barrypriddis said:


> UK has a lot to do to regain any sort of trust from commonwealth countries after we shamefully abandoned them.


I have always felt that the Edward Heath abandonment of the Commonwealth countries was one of the most shameful acts ever by any British government, particularly when all of those countries rallied round without hesitation at times of Britain's greatest need and at vast cost to themselves in lives and money. 
Now the British people have finally said "Enough of the EU and it's bureaucracy." and the doom mongers are forecasting the destruction of the British economy given that they will be leaving a massive trading bloc of 500m people and 27 countries. Sounds bad, doesn't it? But the British Commonwealth of Nations is 2.3bn people and 53 countries, and the wasteful, autocratic, corrupt EU begins to seem small beer in comparison.
Time perhaps then to start rebuilding trust with those 53 countries and, perhaps, seek to create a British Commonwealth free trade area (CoFeTA or similar)? If that could be established Britain might even need a merchant navy again! (Read)


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## spongebob

This takes me back to 1998 when we were staying in Chipping Camden at the end of a 3 month European holiday and while having a pint in the Nine Bells pub I spied a man wearing a Speights Brewery (Dunedin) badged Tee shirt.
I suggested that he was a long way from home but it turned out that his English raised daughter had married a Kiwi and now lived in Dunedin hence the shirt.
We finished up having a pub meal with our partners and the subject of Britain's desertion of NZ was aired by me.
He turned out to be an early retired merchant banker who lived locally and was very pro the EEC with arguments that I could not match . He was also up to date with the NZ desertion , had witnessed the country's economic recovery during his recent visit there and his almost verbatim words to me were something like-
" it was a harsh ungrateful action by Britain but mark my words you have the products, the protein sources , the fruit and wool and timber that the whole world wants and in the long run you will be better off"
That is what has happened , we have sound trade ties with Australia and the huge mass of Asia , too many perhaps as the foreign investment pools in to our primary industries and other activities.
Having said that , if Britain was to ask us to increase trade we would bend over backwards to help who we still regard as the mother country.

Bob


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## Freo

"who we still regard as the mother country." Don't think I would like a mother like that!


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## spongebob

Well Freo she might have showed traits of being an old ***** by selling herself to the seemingly best offer at the time but there is always a glimmer of love in the hearts of her children no matter what she has done.

Bob


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## Nichad

Hello Gents, new to the ship, so first post on topic of interest.

Surprised to hear that NZlander's have a hankering to reconnect with the 'motherland'. Surely a sentiment not held by all, much as Brexit is no more than a mixed message (at best 52% of those that bothered to vote, supported it, at the time) in the UK?

How much of NZ's population would you estimate still have a consideration of the UK as 'home' or 'motherland'? Or, perhaps it is easier stating those that see us 'falling out' (it's hardly controlled) of the EU as positive for ties, whether as a commercial opportunity, or nostalgia?


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## barrypriddis

I am increasingly exasperated by the constant wingeing of remainer voters in the UK who go on about the fact that the majority for leaving the EU was only 52%.
In the 1979 devolution vote the turn out in Wales was 50.1% of the electorate, with 50.3% of those voting for devolution -a majority of 6721. This was hailed as a great victory by Tony Blair and Ron (moment of madness) Davies.
If the welsh devolution result was a great victory, then the No vote over Europe was an even greater victory!
Democracy is about government of the people, for the people, by the people. UK voted out. That is democracy and woe betide those who seek to change that.
Regarding NZ, im not too sure that if I were a Kiwi I would ever trust the UK again.


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## garry Norton

As a kiwi living in the UK I do not have a high opinion of the UK government but the people I find very good, the government both local and federal I find is made up of people who are not willing to listen and can not get away from party dogma.


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## Nichad

barrypriddis said:


> I am increasingly exasperated by the constant wingeing of remainer voters in the UK who go on about the fact that the majority for leaving the EU was only 52%.
> In the 1979 devolution vote the turn out in Wales was 50.1% of the electorate, with 50.3% of those voting for devolution -a majority of 6721. This was hailed as a great victory by Tony Blair and Ron (moment of madness) Davies.
> If the welsh devolution result was a great victory, then the No vote over Europe was an even greater victory!
> Democracy is about government of the people, for the people, by the people. UK voted out. That is democracy and woe betide those who seek to change that.
> Regarding NZ, im not too sure that if I were a Kiwi I would ever trust the UK again.


Britain was ever perfidious, it is the way with Empire, why should it have changed because some Eton school boys find Brexit palatable?

However, whilst I might defer to a view that democracy represents the will of the people (if the people were sufficiently enfranchised by it) I am sure there was more than the will of the people at play in Brexit, whatever you find of the need to dismiss an alternative view.

Surely, any course of democratic action permits of the right to contest not only its validity, but its right...if not Barry why else 'freedom of speech'. Or must we all Kow tau to the might (if not right) of a singluar victory.(*))


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## barrypriddis

Democracy is fine providing it agrees with my opinion. Long live be democracy!


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## 5036

New Zealand. Practical and forgiving with an eye on the big game.
The UK can spread her trade worldwide rather than being shafted by the EU. an opportunity to excel.


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## Nichad

nav said:


> New Zealand. Practical and forgiving with an eye on the big game.
> The UK can spread her trade worldwide rather than being shafted by the EU. an opportunity to excel.


What goods might that be, that we would be 'trading in', I wonder? 

Such a shame, were we to find anything other than military hardware to export, that we don't seem to have a merchantile marine to send it in.

We can never surely never have enough sheep skin, lamb chops and butter...but most of all 'good will' travelling in the other direction...now just how do we go about paying for it?

Excel, now would that be the computer program, or that lost attribute/thing we did a very, very, long time ago?(Sad)


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## 5036

Nichad said:


> What goods might that be, that we would be 'trading in', I wonder?
> 
> Such a shame, were we to find anything other than military hardware to export, that we don't seem to have a merchantile marine to send it in.
> 
> We can never surely never have enough sheep skin, lamb chops and butter...but most of all 'good will' travelling in the other direction...now just how do we go about paying for it?
> 
> Excel, now would that be the computer program, or that lost attribute/thing we did a very, very, long time ago?(Sad)


My apologies for being positive and optimistic.


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## Ron Stringer

nav said:


> My apologies for being positive and optimistic.


Or should that be better described as "wishful thinking"? 

Wolverhampton Wanderers used to be a team to be recognised in the 1950s and '60s. They still can field 11 players, just the same as Real Madrid, so next season they have an excellent chance of beating Real Madrid to win the European Champions League! 

However 'positive and optimistic' their supporters may be, there is such a thing as realism, which requires an assessment of the available skills, resources, the strength of the competition and the regulatory climate that would have to change to make their dream come true.

No harm in dreaming when it comes to being a football fan but you shouldn't apply the same approach when it comes to running a country.


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## Nichad

Nice analogy. 

Dreams... you've got to love them.


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## 5036

Ron Stringer said:


> Or should that be better described as "wishful thinking"?
> 
> Wolverhampton Wanderers used to be a team to be recognised in the 1950s and '60s. They still can field 11 players, just the same as Real Madrid, so next season they have an excellent chance of beating Real Madrid to win the European Champions League!
> 
> However 'positive and optimistic' their supporters may be, there is such a thing as realism, which requires an assessment of the available skills, resources, the strength of the competition and the regulatory climate that would have to change to make their dream come true.
> 
> No harm in dreaming when it comes to being a football fan but you shouldn't apply the same approach when it comes to running a country.


Glass half full or half empty Ron?

Doesn't matter to me, a new drink still needs to be ordered!


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## ART6

Whether or not the Commonwealth countries will forgive Britain for abandoning them is not the point in my view, although they are all adult democracies and always pragmatic so I can't believe that they would sulk and refuse to trade with the UK. The main objection to the EU is, for me, the insistence that only the EU can negotiate trade deals for it's members, and that governments must not be allowed to financially support indigenous industries, although the French and Italians have been doing that for years. 

Maybe post-Brexit the UK will once again be able to invest in its manufacturing industries. Maybe we will once again see British shipyards building ships for the resurgent British merchant navy in competition with Fincantieri, and even cars and trucks British built boarding those ships for export all over the world. All it takes is a far-sighted, highly skilled government with a plan for industry, and the UK could once again become the engineer for the world.

The only obstacle to this pipe dream is my final observation above, since I struggle to guess where one of those might be found after so many years of the crass incompetence that almost seems to have been implanted in the political genes. (Sad)


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## frangio

Still not sure how we abandoned the Commonwealth countries. All these years that we have been in the EU there has still been plenty of NZ lamb on sale in the UK. Also, during that period, NZ, and Australian, wine sales in the UK have risen!

So what exactly, as we keep getting told, was banned from Commonwealth countries by the EU?


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## ART6

frangio said:


> Still not sure how we abandoned the Commonwealth countries. All these years that we have been in the EU there has still been plenty of NZ lamb on sale in the UK. Also, during that period, NZ, and Australian, wine sales in the UK have risen!
> 
> So what exactly, as we keep getting told, was banned from Commonwealth countries by the EU?


I am no expert on this subject but, as I understand it, any non-EU country exporting to the UK or anywhere else in the EU pays EU import tariffs, just as post-Brexit the UK will be able to do in exporting to the EU. These are WTO rules I believe? 
Meanwhile no EU member state can strike any special trade deal with a non-member since only the EU can do that for the whole of the EU.


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## frangio

ART6 said:


> I am no expert on this subject but, as I understand it, any non-EU country exporting to the UK or anywhere else in the EU pays EU import tariffs, just as post-Brexit the UK will be able to do in exporting to the EU. These are WTO rules I believe?
> Meanwhile no EU member state can strike any special trade deal with a non-member since only the EU can do that for the whole of the EU.


But still not an answer to my question. Anti-EUs keep telling us that we had to stop trading with NZ and other Commonwealth countries because of our membership but, as far as I can remember, there has never been a time when NZ lamb was not on sale here. And, as I stated, we now get far more NZ and Australian wine in our shops than we did when we first joined the EU!

Personally, as I am concerned with food miles, I buy local lamb. Wine is more of a problem!


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## spongebob

Pre EU , NZ sent almost 100% of their lamb to the UK and most of their mutton to Iraq where the latter bartered low grade crude oil with 3 to 4 % sulphur in exchange. In those times with pressure coming on our dairy exports to UK/ECC our Dairy Board was so desperate for custom they did a huge barter deal with the USSR to take Lada cars in exchange for milk powder and for years one could drive past about one hundred acres of these vehicles that no one wanted to buy!
Our eventual negotiations with Europe saw us with a lamb import quota far below the old days which resulted in the growth of sales to the US and Asia.
The wine is a different story, I think that you will find that the bulk of Kiwi wine exported to the U.K. And EU is white varieties and Sauvignon Blanc in greatest quantity while Australia dominates with the reds. This is because wine is so dependent on soil and micro climates to achieve the best result per grape variety and the Marlborough province has proved to be the best place on earth for SB and is why a huge amount of the plantings are French investments while a few of California's Booze Barons are increasing their holdings in the province.
While I am on about it, watch for the Central Otago Pinot Noir reds coming available in increasing quality and quantity . Our home grown film star , Sam Neil , Jurrasic Park, Peaky Blinders etc, is doing well with a fine drop that is beyond my budget.

Bob


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## ART6

frangio said:


> But still not an answer to my question. Anti-EUs keep telling us that we had to stop trading with NZ and other Commonwealth countries because of our membership but, as far as I can remember, there has never been a time when NZ lamb was not on sale here. And, as I stated, we now get far more NZ and Australian wine in our shops than we did when we first joined the EU!
> 
> Personally, as I am concerned with food miles, I buy local lamb. Wine is more of a problem!


All true of course, and I did confess to lack of expertise, but when the UK joined the EU did that not require EU tariffs to be applied to imports from non-EU members when, before, they could be whatever the trading countries chose or none at all? 

And for the record I was never "anti-EU" although the more I delve into its policies and practices the more I become so. I have bought a number of books and publications, including those published by the EU and the EC themselves, with a view to trying to arrive at a reasoned conclusion given Brexit. Many argued for the EU, many against, and I slowly found myself leaning against the EU.

I began to think that so many of the EU/EC publications were little short of propaganda, filled with all sorts of statistics that never actually addressed the criticisms that the "against's" leveled. I was once a supporter of the concept of an EU federal state with it's own parliament provided that the EC were reduced to its proper position as a civil service answerable to politicians elected by the taxpayers, but that didn't happen. In fact the EC steadily grabbed more power until it became an autocracy as the people of member states were deceived through a series of referendums to give it those powers (or be forced under political pressure to vote again if they didn't). I began to think that, maybe, the EU founders and the EC commissioners had an agenda that I didn't understand but of which I didn't like the sound. I admit to being somewhat influenced by the Russian ex-president Gorbachev, who wondered why when Europe had watched the collapse of the Soviet Union, it was so determined to replace it with an European version?

Then the establishment of the currency union and the vesting of control of the money to the ECB. A single currency throughout the 27 members with vastly different economies, some based upon agriculture and some based upon manufacturing? It was, it seemed to me then, a cart before a horse because without a federal government as in the USA or Russia it could never work. The central bank would always consider the needs of the large members because it would always be controlled by those who funded it, but the other members would have their own (emasculated) governments who, in the Council of Ministers, would side with the big guys who had the money and happily sacrifice the little guys like Greece and Ireland as long as the money kept flowing to them. No minister would be shouting their corner in a federal government because there wasn't one. 

I couldn't see how a common currency could be possible without a central government, until it dawned upon me that the common currency was simply intended to be a further step along the construction of a soviet where federation became the only solution to financial disaster for many of the member states and with a ruling bureaucracy that had prepared itself for exactly that strategy. This is not the benefit of hindsight either -- I did campaign against Ireland joining the Eurozone at the time, and I attended and spoke at a number of public meetings questioning our government's desire to join. I was persuaded by the propagandists of course of the benefits of being able to take a holiday in the Costa Del Sol and spend the same money that I could spend in Dublin, and that, I thought, was just about the most puerile argument ever offered to the proles by the elite since it conveniently avoided any more complex questions. It became symptomatic to me of the attitude that "We know what is best for you, so stop asking silly questions when you won't understand the answer!" I didn't and don't like that!

So then Brexit in which I as a long term ex-pat had no vote, and the growing threats of UK meltdown if some sort of trade deal could not be cobbled together with the mighty EU. But.....er....there are 7.5bn people on this planet and 500k in the EU aren't there? All of those people need to buy something that they cannot make for themselves, and they fund their purchases by selling something that someone else needs. The British Commonwealth of Nations is three times the size of the EU. Trade between all of those people doesn't need the intervention of the autocratic EU and it's political ambitions, or its failed politicians elected as EC Commissioners in order to ensure their vast pensions before they retire to the lecture circuit.

So, I'm afraid I have moved from being a federalist. I have come to believe that the sooner this whole rotten empire built by little people who would climb on the shoulders of better men is gone the better!


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