# More on the demise of Swan Hunter



## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

From the Glasgow Herald - 

Contract for Navy vessel is switched to Clyde 

Govan shipyard in Glasgow is to take over the contract to build a ship from a rival in England after the work went over budget.
The 16,000-ton fleet auxiliary ship Lyme Bay will be towed from Tyneside to the Clyde after procurement officials at the Ministry of Defence decided to withdraw the work from the Swan Hunter shipyard at Wallsend.
BAe Systems will undertake the work, leading to a number of jobs in Glasgow, while a question mark remains over the future of those in England working under the Dutch-owned shipbuilder.
Swan Hunter had 200 skilled tradesmen working on the ship but as there is already a recruitment drive under way at the Scotstoun and Govan yards, the switch is expected to generate only several dozen extra jobs.
The Clyde yards have already built two sister ships, Mounts Bay and Cardigan Bay, at a combined cost of £176m. Mounts Bay has been delivered – on time and on budget – and Cardigan Bay is also expected to be completed satisfactorily.
Swan Hunter was contracted to build two – Lyme Bay and Largs Bay. 
The Tyneside yard has been paid £309m which is almost twice the original quote.
Largs Bay was handed over to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary in April but it will be another year before Lyme Bay, which was due to have been launched last year, will be ready to undergo sea trials.
MoD officials had been concerned at the rising costs and delays for some time and a trouble-shooting team drafted in from Govan had already tried to speed up production.
Lord Drayson, minister for defence procurement, added: "This has been a difficult decision for the MoD. 
"Our priority has always been effective delivery of the required military capability, which we have attempted to achieve through successful completion of the contract with Swan Hunter.
"However, the cost growth and delays on this project have been unacceptable. The Ministry of Defence has reached the conclusion that the contract no longer represents value for money.
"We need to act to bring certainty to the programme and this decision is fully consistent with the principles of the Defence Industrial Strategy."
A spokesman for BAe in Glasgow said last night: "BAe Systems is committed to working with the MoD to ensure the timely and efficient delivery of the remaining two vessels, Cardigan Bay and Lyme Bay. We are confident that our proven experience on the programme to date will ensure that we deliver the required capability to our customer." 
Jaap Kroese, Swan Hunter chairman, said last night: "I am obviously disappointed with the outcome but the Ministry of Defence has taken this decision because it makes financial sense to finish the last two ships in the one shipyard."
A spokesman for the MoD added that Swan Hunter sees its future in new opportunities including shipbreaking, for which it has now received a licence from the Environment Agency.
If successful, the spokesman said, that transition may enable the company to sustain its current workforce of approximately 160 jobs The MoD is also working with regional development agency staff to identify further work-based training opportunities for Swan Hunter apprentices.
Govan shipyard in Glasgow is to take over the contract to build a ship from a rival in England after the work went over budget.
The 16,000-ton fleet auxiliary ship Lyme Bay will be towed from Tyneside to the Clyde after procurement officials at the Ministry of Defence decided to withdraw the work from the Swan Hunter shipyard at Wallsend.
BAe Systems will undertake the work, leading to a number of jobs in Glasgow, while a question mark remains over the future of those in England working under the Dutch-owned shipbuilder.
Swan Hunter had 200 skilled tradesmen working on the ship but as there is already a recruitment drive under way at the Scotstoun and Govan yards, the switch is expected to generate only several dozen extra jobs.
The Clyde yards have already built two sister ships, Mounts Bay and Cardigan Bay, at a combined cost of £176m. Mounts Bay has been delivered – on time and on budget – and Cardigan Bay is also expected to be completed satisfactorily.
Swan Hunter was contracted to build two – Lyme Bay and Largs Bay. 
The Tyneside yard has been paid £309m which is almost twice the original quote.
Largs Bay was handed over to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary in April but it will be another year before Lyme Bay, which was due to have been launched last year, will be ready to undergo sea trials.
MoD officials had been concerned at the rising costs and delays for some time and a trouble-shooting team drafted in from Govan had already tried to speed up production.
Lord Drayson, minister for defence procurement, added: "This has been a difficult decision for the MoD. 
"Our priority has always been effective delivery of the required military capability, which we have attempted to achieve through successful completion of the contract with Swan Hunter.
"However, the cost growth and delays on this project have been unacceptable. The Ministry of Defence has reached the conclusion that the contract no longer represents value for money.
"We need to act to bring certainty to the programme and this decision is fully consistent with the principles of the Defence Industrial Strategy."
A spokesman for BAe in Glasgow said last night: "BAe Systems is committed to working with the MoD to ensure the timely and efficient delivery of the remaining two vessels, Cardigan Bay and Lyme Bay. We are confident that our proven experience on the programme to date will ensure that we deliver the required capability to our customer." 
Jaap Kroese, Swan Hunter chairman, said last night: "I am obviously disappointed with the outcome but the Ministry of Defence has taken this decision because it makes financial sense to finish the last two ships in the one shipyard."
A spokesman for the MoD added that Swan Hunter sees its future in new opportunities including shipbreaking, for which it has now received a licence from the Environment Agency.
If successful, the spokesman said, that transition may enable the company to sustain its current workforce of approximately 160 jobs The MoD is also working with regional development agency staff to identify further work-based training opportunities for Swan Hunter apprentices.
Govan shipyard in Glasgow is to take over the contract to build a ship from a rival in England after the work went over budget.
The 16,000-ton fleet auxiliary ship Lyme Bay will be towed from Tyneside to the Clyde after procurement officials at the Ministry of Defence decided to withdraw the work from the Swan Hunter shipyard at Wallsend.
BAe Systems will undertake the work, leading to a number of jobs in Glasgow, while a question mark remains over the future of those in England working under the Dutch-owned shipbuilder.
Swan Hunter had 200 skilled tradesmen working on the ship but as there is already a recruitment drive under way at the Scotstoun and Govan yards, the switch is expected to generate only several dozen extra jobs.
The Clyde yards have already built two sister ships, Mounts Bay and Cardigan Bay, at a combined cost of £176m. Mounts Bay has been delivered – on time and on budget – and Cardigan Bay is also expected to be completed satisfactorily.
Swan Hunter was contracted to build two – Lyme Bay and Largs Bay. 
The Tyneside yard has been paid £309m which is almost twice the original quote.
Largs Bay was handed over to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary in April but it will be another year before Lyme Bay, which was due to have been launched last year, will be ready to undergo sea trials.
MoD officials had been concerned at the rising costs and delays for some time and a trouble-shooting team drafted in from Govan had already tried to speed up production.
Lord Drayson, minister for defence procurement, added: "This has been a difficult decision for the MoD. 

Rushie


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

*More on Swan Hunter...*

From the Northern Echo - 

_Swans shipyard to be mothballed

SWAN Hunter's last remaining shipyard will be mothballed with the loss of more than 300 jobs, all but marking the end of naval shipbuilding in the North-East, it emerged last night.

Swans has been given no alternative but to close its yard in Wallsend, North Tyneside, after the Ministry of Defence (MoD) yesterday announced it had ended its contract with the company because of spiralling costs.

After months of speculation, the second Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessel, the Lyme Bay, will leave Swans.[/I

The remaining work on the ship will be carried out by BAE systems, in Govan, Scotland.

The MoD said the contract with Swans no longer represented value for money after costs and delays on the Lyme Bay reached an "unacceptable" level.

A source yesterday told The Northern Echo that Swans was now unlikely ever to work in the defence industry again.

Swans owner Jaap Kroese said the yard would be mothballed in the next two weeks.

"I am not in the job to make people redundant, but that is what is going to happen," he said. "About 300 jobs are going to go imminently, probably over the next few weeks. 

"There will just be a couple of people left and the yard will run on a care-and-maintenance cycle."

More than 1,600 ships, including more than 400 naval vessels, have been built at Swan Hunter, but the Lyme Bay will be the first in the yard's 145-year history to leave the yard uncompleted.

The MoD will pay Swans in full for the work they have carried out on the Lyme Bay, which is over-budget, a year overdue and months away from completion.

Yesterday, Defence Procurement Minister Lord Drayson said: "The cost growth and delays on this project have been unacceptable. 

"The Ministry of Defence has reached the conclusion that the contract no longer represents value for money."

David Bowles, chairman of Northern Defence Industries, which represents the defence manufacturer sector across the region, said the future looked extremely bleak for Swans.

"It is a huge shame for the North of England that this will be the last complete naval ship we will see being built in the region," he said. "We all feel very sorry for everybody at Swan Hunter and for Jaap Kroese, who worked very hard and invested a lot of money. 

"But the demands of the contract were just too much for the resources of the yard."  

Rushie_


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## Fairfield (Apr 26, 2004)

A really sad day for a great shipbuilding firm and Tyneside. Both the Tyne and Wear have had shipbuilding stripped over the years and this really leaves nothing. 
The Clyde could easily have gone the same way and it is fortunate that there are still 3 yards in operation. Having said that, Ferguson/s at Port Glasgow are on a sticky wicket and I don/t know about the Scotstoun yard of BAe now that it appears that the rest of the Type 45s are going to be built at Govan. How far Govan can go on just naval/RFA contracts has yet to be seen although I believe replacements for some of the RFA FORTS is planned but how long that will take- look at the carrier fiasco- remains to be seen.


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

sad, sad day on the tyne but we are used to these political blunders and who knows one day the big river will flow again, we are very proud of the ships that we built, and the men of the tyne that sailed them, we will never give up, we stand proud.


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## william dillon (Jun 9, 2005)

wa002f0328 said:


> sad, sad day on the tyne but we are used to these political blunders and who knows one day the big river will flow again, we are very proud of the ships that we built, and the men of the tyne that sailed them, we will never give up, we stand proud.


What political blunder are you talking about ?, the orders were placed, the obligations were obviously not met and the yard has paid ultimate price.
Someone needs a boot up the A***. (Cloud)


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## Paul UK (Jun 13, 2005)

william dillon said:


> What political blunder are you talking about ?, the orders were placed, the obligations were obviously not met and the yard has paid ultimate price.
> Someone needs a boot up the A***. (Cloud)


If one yard can do it and one can not what has gone wrong is it the workers, probably not as I have not heard of any strikes or anything so it must be the management as from what I read here the MOD has put trouble shooters in to swans to try to sort things out but twice the price and twice the time appears out of order.

Paul


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## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

The Government stressed that the workforce was not to blame, the quality of the ship was first class and the over spend and delay was 100% down to management or mismanagement there is more to this than simple incompetence.


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## dom (Feb 10, 2006)

*dom*

i read about two months ago that the latest sub.buildings were well over budget and way behind time,the management were very pleased,they were only two years behind schedle and not four


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## Clem (Apr 27, 2006)

My nephew served his time at Swans a few years ago. Since then he's moved between companies on the Tyne returning to Swans on a couple of occassions. He left Swan Hunters a few weeks ago to take up his trade elsewhere, one of the lucky ones.

Clem


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

*Political absurdity....*

Nothing of course to with Gordon Brown (Favourite to be next UK Prime Minister) being Scottish....and all repair work contracts for naval vessels being transferred from Plymouth / Pompey to Rosyth in Scotland per chance...????

Also when the shipyard at Appledore (North Devon UK) tendered for building the 3 new ferries for the Plymouth - Torpoint ferries ( for those not geographically aware - it is "up the road") and really need the work to keep the yard open...where did the Government choose....yep...Scotland....600 miles "up the road"...and by golly...did they make a balls up of the new ferries....surprised...? No....nor me.....

If Swan Hunter changed their name to Mc Swan Hunter....they'd be building ships for decades....

And I'm Welsh....and annoyed....  

Rushie


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## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

I dislike the sniping that goes on between the regions, tongue in cheek is one thing but when it gets serious its unhealthy and unhelpful.


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

But this Scottish thing appears to be blatant.

Not just my thoughts Jeff....but allocation of naval contracts are being investigated by a Parliamentary Committee.

I have a few "local" views....like the new King Harry ferry...more or less exact build of the Torpoint ones was built in Holland...but the company insisted it was fitted out in Falmouth. Bloomin marvellous...local ferries for local people.

It's not sniping...it's as it happens.


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## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

I've noticed recently it has become popular among certain political circles to bash the Scots to discredit Gordon Brown who I know to be a very intellegent person, the main reason is not the fact that he is from Scotland but the fact he is a little more left wing than Tony Blair and therefore has the Tory's worried. But I find it ironic when people based in the South of England complain when jobs are allocated to the north or Scotland.


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

*North East v South West....*

I don't think it's ironic at all....I was plainly stating a case that I have first hand knowledge of. I could live on Pluto and still have the knowledge of local issues. You missed the point...it is being investigated by a Parliamentary Committee...no mc smoke without mc fire then.?

For your info Jeff I advise a group of MP's in Westminster on Local Transport issues so I know a hell of a lot of what is happening all around the country...I need to...it's my living.! My comments are not made without substance.

I'm not Scots bashing...they are my Celtic brethren....I love them.!

Interesting to hear your view on the shift of work from the Tyne to Govan though... (Eats)


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## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

I on the other hand do not name drop so I can not tell you of my connections within the Palace of Westminster for secruity purposes.


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

So it's obviously Gordon Brown then..?

Enough of your irrelevant nonsense...!


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Sorry Rushie your not getting away with that.

I suppose you have forgotton about the movement of the submarine contract away from Rosyth to Devonport a few years ago which was full of political overtones.

The following is a snip from the Scotsman Newspaper 2003.

*Ten years ago, when the Tory government awarded a multi-million-pound Trident nuclear submarine contract to the English naval base of Devonport, rather than to Rosyth, serious questions were asked about the motive for the decision. *


*Ministers of the day, such as Sir Malcolm Rifkind, the former defence secretary and MP for Edinburgh Pentlands, pointed to the fact that Devonport had undercut Rosyth by £8 million with its £240 million bid, but supporters of the Fife naval base argued otherwise. *

*The controversial move was attacked as a politically motivated decision to safeguard Conservative seats in the south of England, because Devonport was in a marginal Tory seat of Plymouth, while Rosyth was in solid Labour territory. *

*Supporters of Rosyth also insisted that the Scottish bid was much more robust. *

So lets not change the thread which you started with a sensible point about Swan Hunter to move to a topic that will get a few people upset on here.

You usually post relevant topics for discussion but its not like you to try and wind people up.

Rgds


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

*Mc Truth*

Cheers Hugh....

I think the article from the "Scotsman" newspaper was totally unbiased...and I apologise for regional disharmony.!

Exiled Taff.


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

*An afterthought....*

Hi Hugh,

Just an update...the current MP for Devonport is Alison Seabeck....Labour..!!

She's sound....fights for local transport issues...a proper MP.

Meanwhile...being a lifelong Cowdenbeath fan I was extremely disgruntled that at our promotion match at the end of last season that Gordon Brown was there...! He's (apparently) a Raith Rovers fan...our arch enemies....being seen in the right place at the right time...?!!! The constituants of Lochgelly will not be taken in by it...! (Ouch)


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

rushie said:


> Cheers Hugh....
> 
> I think the article from the "Scotsman" newspaper was totally unbiased...and I apologise for regional disharmony.!
> 
> Exiled Taff.


Hi Rushie,

No personal offence taken.

Political interference has been unhelpful in the past and will be again. Unfortunately it's the poor sods who work in those places that are the most affected. Losing your job to satisfy a politicians majority (whether its North or South) is a pretty big kick in the teeth.

P.S. How the heck does a Welshman end up supporting Cowdenbeath  
Rgds


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

Hmmm a long story that one....

Basically we couldn't fing Stenhousmuir...so we chose the team with the next ridiculous name...! Went to see them play 27 years running, and have family membership for their supporters club..!

Cheers,

Rushie


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## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

There is a front page picture in my local paper this evening of the Lyme Bay being towed out of the Tyne so they didnt hang about, oh and congrats to Gordon Brown on the birth of his second son today 8lbs.


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## Paul UK (Jun 13, 2005)

oh thats why the child funds have been increased. (Thumb)


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

*Christening present...?!!!*

From the BBC - 

_Tyne ship is towed to rival yard 

The ship is being towed to the Clyde in Scotland 
A ship has been towed out of a Tyneside shipyard after work to complete the vessel was handed over to a rival shipyard in Scotland. 
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) announced last week that the unfinished ship Lyme Bay would be handed over from Swan Hunter to BAE Systems, at Govan. 

The ship was towed out of the Tyne on Monday morning to begin the journey to the Clyde in Scotland. 

The Tyneside yard, where up to 300 people worked, is due to be mothballed. 

The MoD said it had been a difficult decision to take the work away from Swan Hunter but it was down to an increase in costs and delays. 

Earlier this year, Swan Hunter was granted permission by the Environment Agency to dismantle ships and it is thought the yard's future could lie in that direction. _ 

Seems that "minor" Brown got a prezzie from dad he will have to wait a while to play with.....

Rushie


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## william dillon (Jun 9, 2005)

Jeff Egan said:


> I dislike the sniping that goes on between the regions, tongue in cheek is one thing but when it gets serious its unhealthy and unhelpful.


 (Applause) I agree 100% with you Jeff, this petty sniping does no good and is very harmful to the harmony we all enjoy on S.N.
Banter is one thing but this is getting rediculous and personal on a national scale, my advice is let's get back to the subject of ships & related matters and end this petty point scoring against each other. (Cloud)


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## william dillon (Jun 9, 2005)

Hugh MacLean said:


> Sorry Rushie your not getting away with that.
> 
> I suppose you have forgotton about the movement of the submarine contract away from Rosyth to Devonport a few years ago which was full of political overtones.
> 
> ...


 (Applause) Hear, Hear, Hugh, when are they going to collect all the contaminated scrap that is lying at Rosyth & take it all down south to Plymouth??. (Cloud)


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

hi i see that rushie and jeff are at it regarding the transfer of lyme bay from tyneside to the clyde while i am glad the workforce came out of it ok i think the management should take a long look at themselves and try to put it right before it is too far gone and lost alltogether. also i worked at smiths on the tyne and i remember when we got the fort austin and fort grange to complete after thier trials and there was a lot of unfinished work to do both from bonnie scotland.

cheers tom (*))


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## Jeff Egan (Jul 25, 2005)

"At it" me? no just dont like people who are intent on following their masters line, the political line of the day being to knock all things Scottish as certain people are wanting to discredit Gordon Brown for no other reason than he was born over the border.


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## Pioneer (May 31, 2006)

please stop ****gen scottish ship yards they are having it tough aswell looking for tenders poland won tenders for 2x60 car ferries from a scottish ship owner who after 130 years decided to go abroad after ships not being built on time and up to standard really the british ship building industry and goverment wants to buck up its ideas and start getting more tenders won here and abroad


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## Pat McCardle (Jun 12, 2005)

Was Swan's not employing a load of Polish welders etc at the time of the closure, as most of the local work force decamped to McNulty's? (EEK)


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## Tomvart (Feb 16, 2006)

william dillon said:


> What political blunder are you talking about ?, the orders were placed, the obligations were obviously not met and the yard has paid ultimate price.
> Someone needs a boot up the A***. (Cloud)


I was born and bred in Low Walker - literally 200 yards from Swan Hunters Neptune Yard, All of my family worked in Swans Hunter & Wigham Richardsons, Hawthorne Leslies, Vickers-Armstrongs, Palmers, Redheads - I have records going back to 1906 (my great grandad fitting the machinery into RMS Mauretania & Grandad serving his time on HMS Hercules - 1908 as a Fitter right the way through to my Dad leaving the Swans in 1986) - So this subject is very close to my heart.

I agree with your comment that someone needs a boot up the proverbial, and ultimately Yard Management and Design office inexperience are to blame for the failures - not the workforce, however the yard was only put in this state due to successive Goverment underhand dealings:
1. Privatisation agreement forced on the Yard back in the late 70's by the government, part of the deal was that the Yard would specialise in Warship building, this meant that the Yard was forbidden to receive any European subsidies and put the whole of Swan Hunters at a distinct disadvantage when competing for orders with other rival yards in the UK who were allowed to diversify Merchant with Warship. 
2. The Final nail in Swan's coffin came with the fiasco of the Contract award for HMS Ocean - which killed the Yard off and lead it into receivership - most of Swans key people (award winning Design office and the last of decent management) leaving the company/area for other (Govt. favoured) ship builders such as Barrow.

To think that I actually voted for both governments that dealt these blows makes me seeth!(MAD) 

Thankfully my Dad seen the writing on the wall and when I left school in 1978 - He advised me not to go near the Yards and I thankfully joined the RN instead of following the family tradition!


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## 3762dazzer (Jun 10, 2007)

Bottom line gents be you Scot, Welsh, English or even British (If such a person exists these days) we are too expensive to compete in manufacturing of anything.
Mate of mine has just fitted a Daewoo diesel & g/b in his boat for £8k
The Gardner which was replaced and had been in there since 1961 would have cost £20k + to re manufacture, which would you go for?
Yep the Gardner lasted 40+ years, the Daewoo might last 15, but he could have another brand new one in 15 years time and still be in pocket.
I did a 4 year apprenticeship at Devonport in the early 80's and it was accepted that it was about the best apprenticeship you could do, costly though and who's concerned with quality? not politicians, they only care about cost !!!!!!!
By the way I catch the Torpoint ferries every day, the new ones are built to a price alright, if you catch my drift !!!!!!


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## JRMacGregor (Feb 1, 2007)

The POLITICAL BLUNDER was the award of these ships to Swan Hunter in the first place.

This was done for political reasons (the inexperienced but arrogant Mandelson, Blair and others were MPs for that part of the world).

Despite the brave words coming from the new owner of Swans at the time, the yard was not a functioning shipyard. As an earlier poster has said, the design office, management and even equipment had gone after previous political meddling (of a different hue). The yard was an offshore yard - providing labour to execute an offshore module design made by someone else, some where else. Not a design/build shipyard by any means.

The "new" Swans had no chance. They did not even have a clue what they did not know.

Appledore in Devon did know, and could have built these ships. They spent a lot of money to make an honest bid and were cheated. The press at the time did contain some of the complaints made by the then MD Jim Wilson (a Scot !). The work went to Swans who everyone (apart from the politicians and civil servants) knew could not do it for the price.

In the end it was not the workers at Swans who were at fault - there was no organisation in place to manage them and give them the design information which might allow them to have done this job correctly.

Finally, although BAE Govan has done a good job (compared to what is left of UK naval shipbuilding), BAE has certainly managed to fleece the taxpayer on these ships (for reasons of delayed design by the lead yard) so they are certainly NOT on budget as the Glasgow Herald claimed.


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

(Pint) Hear, Hear, Order please, L.O.


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