# HMS Queen Elizabeth



## double acting

According to newspaper reports they are "replacing 284 hull valves", seems a bit strange, any clues as to why?


----------



## Erimus

Appears that that was one of the major reasons for the docking along with rudder cleaning and upgrading cathodic protection.

geoff


----------



## seaman38

double acting said:


> they are "replacing 284 hull valves", seems a bit strange, any clues as to why?


Perhaps they are leaking!(Whaaa)


----------



## Stephen J. Card

The captain's wife has open an iron monger's shop!


----------



## Engine Serang

And she'll deliver them, in small batches.


----------



## spongebob

Admiralty bought them from China as a job lot, wrong hand, clockwise to open.
A bit like those Japanese prunung saws, cut on the pull stroke.!

Bob


----------



## Dickyboy

Just as well they can do it now, she's no bloody good as warship at the moment anyway. 
A chance to sort out the other one now they know there's a problem as well.


----------



## Farmer John

Disappointing, I clicked on this in case it was an advert for a new captain.


----------



## Engine Serang

Was it only upon fitting the 284th valve that someone realised that the valves were upside down.
After a long and expensive inquiry it will be concluded that Billy the Fitter was to blame and middle-managers and above will get a bonus. Fair do's.


----------



## RHP

Cathodic protection and hull valves are such basic design factors, how can they get them wrong?


----------



## YM-Mundrabilla

Forgive me for I am konfuzed.
Is the LH valve bit a belated April Fool's joke?
If so, on one hand, it has reached the stage that I don't know whether to believe it or not whilst, on the other hand, the concept seems so outrageous that it might just be true. (Too many hands doing we know not what, perhaps).(egg)
If true, who uses LH valves and for what purpose?


----------



## James_C

Prior to this recent docking the ship had been in the water for nearly 5 years (since July 2014) so it is no surprise that her underwater paintwork and anodes needed attention. Since she is classed by Lloyds Register to their warship rules, inspection of ship side valves is a surveyable item at 5 yearly intervals, hence their removal for inspection.
So for the avoidance of doubt for those out there who are desperate to sensationalise, there has been no massive cock up, accident or poor planning which has led to this docking or the work undertaken therein.


----------



## Engine Serang

#1 "replacing 284 hull valves"

#1 2 inspection of ship side valves is a surveyable item at 5 yearly intervals, hence their removal for inspection.

False news or alternative facts?


----------



## James_C

Engine Serang said:


> #1 "replacing 284 hull valves"
> 
> #1 2 inspection of ship side valves is a surveyable item at 5 yearly intervals, hence their removal for inspection.
> 
> False news or alternative facts?



Perhaps lost in translation. Although being the RN/MOD I must admit there's every possibility they'll just remove and replace rather than inspect/overhaul and replace, especially after the shambles with Endurance.


----------



## Lao Pan

replacing 284 hull valves ...upgrading cathodic protection.

maybe for the last 5 years the valves have been working as sacrificial anodes (?HUH)

...Perhaps they are leaking! - I got some Wood, Cement & Washing Soda if anyone wants to fix em before Drydock or the Engine-room floods (Jester)


----------



## Burntisland Ship Yard

Is there a modern version of cement boxes ???


----------



## Engine Serang

Burntisland Ship Yard said:


> Is there a modern version of cement boxes ???


My two would be Class and Port State.


----------



## dannic

James_C said:


> Prior to this recent docking the ship had been in the water for nearly 5 years (since July 2014) so it is no surprise that her underwater paintwork and anodes needed attention. Since she is classed by Lloyds Register to their warship rules, inspection of ship side valves is a surveyable item at 5 yearly intervals, hence their removal for inspection.
> So for the avoidance of doubt for those out there who are desperate to sensationalise, there has been no massive cock up, accident or poor planning which has led to this docking or the work undertaken therein.


Merchant vessels open and inspect, overhaul and then submit for for survey. Government paid for, they will be renewed, and subsequently sold on. 
Dannic


----------



## Olaf_the_blue

Lao Pan is probably pretty close to the mark with his "maybe for the last 5 years the valves have been working as sacrificial anodes." The give-away is the reference to cathodic protection upgrade. With ICCP systems, (Impressed Current Cathodic Protection,) if not designed and operated correctly they can strip the zinc out of brass/bronze valves attached as hull fittings making them leaky and more brittle. Could be an oops at the design end or running the ICCP to aggressively.


----------



## Steve Oatey

Contract language is very important. Replace is not the same as renew.


----------



## Varley

Olaf_the_blue said:


> Lao Pan is probably pretty close to the mark with his "maybe for the last 5 years the valves have been working as sacrificial anodes." The ……...………….........….be an oops at the design end or running the ICCP to aggressively.


I don't agree with your last ('aggressively'). The only real meaning of overprotection is to generate gas bubbles and blow off the paint. De-zincification would only occur if it were being sacrificial (ie underprotection).

Denholm's had relinquished Mr. Rappaport's fleet to Acomarit and this included two Russian built bulk carriers with enormous and unstable ICCP power unit. One each side every hatch break! Were the wielder of the terminal screwdriver to have had the touch of a midwife he would still have been hard pressed to adjust the output in the very small band between sod all and very much all.

Not long after I got a call from Dick Swindall (formerly my line manager and now deserted to Acomarit) asking innocently if I had ever seen an ICCP'd hull with a 'sort of etched look' and no paint. Havin already reported that the best use of these vessels' ICCP, if not subject to expert attention, would be to anchor-off the vessel prior to her next drydock and use it to blow the paint off and save on blasting.

Sure enough the question was about one of the subject bulkers.


----------



## uncle Ray

Varley said:


> I don't agree with your last ('aggressively'). The only real meaning of overprotection is to generate gas bubbles and blow off the paint. De-zincification would only occur if it were being sacrificial (ie underprotection).


It is possible to over protect a vessel with an ICCP system, if the voltage is too high for an excessive period of time it will cause Hydrogen embrittlement and as a result of this the likes of valve stems and spades made of lesser noble metals will suffer, reference cells are strategically placed around the vessel to monitor the voltage output but as most ICCP units are placed to the aft of the vessel the reference cells up Fwd will give a lesser reading to the aft reference cells therefore a happy medium must be reached. Once the ICCIP system has been switched on for the first time it will take many days for it to become fully effective and vice versa if it is switched off it will take just as long to UN protect the vessel, Ive heard of some vessels switching off the system from time to time to prevent any problems such as embrittlement.


----------



## Lao Pan

Varley said:


> ... two Russian built bulk carriers with enormous and unstable ICCP power unit. One each side every hatch break!


Are you sure the Russians intended them for ICCP use - having sailed on a couple of Russian built ships they were just as likely originally designed for hull degaussing for passing through mine fields


----------



## Varley

uncle Ray said:


> It is possible to over protect a vessel with an ICCP system, if the voltage is too high for an excessive period of time it will cause Hydrogen embrittlement and as a result of this the likes of valve stems and spades made of lesser noble metals will suffer, reference cells are strategically placed around the vessel to monitor the voltage output but as most ICCP units are placed to the aft of the vessel the reference cells up Fwd will give a lesser reading to the aft reference cells therefore a happy medium must be reached. Once the ICCIP system has been switched on for the first time it will take many days for it to become fully effective and vice versa if it is switched off it will take just as long to UN protect the vessel, Ive heard of some vessels switching off the system from time to time to prevent any problems such as embrittlement.


I think it is highly unlikely that one will come across hydrogen embrittlement on a hull unless and unusually it is made of high tensile steel. Again, even that would, I think, be more likely due to manufacturing than free hydrogen absorbed from its interface with the paint.

I did hear it talked about WRT MV Arctic and extremely cold water operations but I think that, too, was eventually discounted.

I am no metallurgist nor am I a gambler but I will take a bet that one is more likely to diagnose one's ICCP putting out too much from a side full of missing paint than waiting for the odd crack from hydrogen embrittlement. Any metallic suffering from overprotection will not involve it having been sacrificial, by definition, although with the Russian system it might well have been burned off!


----------



## Varley

Lao Pan said:


> Are you sure the Russians intended them for ICCP use - having sailed on a couple of Russian built ships they were just as likely originally designed for hull degaussing for passing through mine fields


The pair had other features that might have been more to do with auxiliary duty as well as a few absolute horrors the worst being her "halon" system. This consisted of two fluids (as stored). One being slightly flammable itself and the other employed to supress the first. Unfortunately whether effective or not it was highly carcinogenic.

Almost every load was capable of being connected to the emergency switchboard via a huge changeover switch local to each starter.

The bitter ends of both cables were easily releasable with I metre diameter handwheels.

As far as I remember she did not have any degaussing gear (I have only seen this once on one of the Cenargo vessels, can't remember which). I do imagine, though that the ICCP could have provided a set of coils with enough juice to send the North Pole on its way back to Canada.


----------



## Olaf_the_blue

I have been caught out oversimplifying and withdraw the "aggressively" unreservedly. Rather too abstract and subject to misinterpretation.
The hull protection problem would be relatively simple if it only involved a steel hull, failures of protective coatings and bronze propellers under static conditions. This sadly is seldom the case as most ships carry numerous galvanic couples, some localized, some more general. This, I would imagine, would be especially so with naval vessels fitted with a complex range of equipment.
My most notable experience with de-zincification was with two coal fired steamers built in the 80's as a result of the 70's fuel crisis. (But that's another story.) The main cooling sal****er inlet valves, amongst others, eroded quite rapidly, mainly as a result of the influence of "Defcon" equipment designed to counter marine growth in cooling systems.


----------



## Varley

I hope we were chatting not arguing!

Not only hulls and their fittings. Alcan, more an advertising gimmick than naval architecture, had aluminium mainmasts built on Northern Venture and Northern Progress. Every out-fitting (Christmas tree etc.), most available in steel or bronze only, of course, insulated from it (if I remember correctly, I had an idea they also had an 'earth' strap between them which does not seem to make good corrosion sense).


----------



## Olaf_the_blue

All in the spirit of learning and sharing and as often as not with tongue in cheek. If you visit my info page as I have yours, the photo portrays the Monty Python philosophers' pose, not any claim on my part to membership of the institution, (although I do harbour a secret hope of elevation to FRS.)

It seems we have a few things in common, (and I have already forgiven you for starting life as a 'sparks.')


----------



## Engine Serang

It seems we have a few things in common, (and I have already forgiven you for starting life as a 'sparks.')

I haven't.


----------



## Varley

That's because it took one job away from the fenian legion normally providing Macaroni with godless key fodder.


----------



## gde

The aircraft carrier valves were supplied by Score Peterhead,they received the order for all valves for both vessels.


----------



## Duncan112

Varley said:


> I hope we were chatting not arguing!
> 
> Not only hulls and their fittings. Alcan, more an advertising gimmick than naval architecture, had aluminium mainmasts built on Northern Venture and Northern Progress. Every out-fitting (Christmas tree etc.), most available in steel or bronze only, of course, insulated from it (if I remember correctly, I had an idea they also had an 'earth' strap between them which does not seem to make good corrosion sense).


This is what you need !! https://triclad.com/product/ saw it used in the restoration of a J Class racer (Valsheda?) at, I think, Campers around 1998, comes in strips, you can weld the steel side to steel and the aluminium side to aluminium, allegedly no galvanic problems.


----------



## Varley

Duncan, I think that is exactly what was done at the foot of the mast, afterwards coated. I also think I remember something about such a process being done by a thermite process, possibly even a Tomorrows World 'thing'.


----------



## sternchallis

I was on a couple of old ships built in the 1950's that had a degausing system consisting of copper wire round the internal structure of the Hull connected to some box or other. The fancy cathodic protection systems hadn't come in yet when those ship were built, but had lumps of zinc welded to strategic places.


----------



## sternchallis

Getting back to the Lizzie, see she is in trouble again , 200 lt / hour leak from one of the sterntube seals. 
Presumably they are not oil filled these days, but open to the sea at the prop end and some sort of rubber seal inboard.
Considering the size the shaft will have to be, 200 ltrs/ hour is niether here nor there, keeps the seal lubricated.
Can they not put a rubber cofferdam or a doughnut between the prop and the stern bush and put a new seal in. 
I remember as a first trip jnr, our stern gland got a bit too leaky , so they had a diver down in Philadelphia harbour in February to wrap some polythene round the outer bush, then the 2nd and the lads repacked the stern gland with 2" greasy packing. The leaking water stunk to high heaven with all, the pollutants known to man plus it was icy cold. I was on nights pumping out the tunnel bilge 20 minutes every hour ( so not 200lts an hour, much more), with the Sany pump as that was cleanest, though it might have been academic considering the stuff leaking in. This was when toilets discharged straight over the side above the waterline and the Mate had to put the boards out to cover the discharge in case it landed on the quayside.

Considering the leaks they are getting from the dodgy ship side valves its nothing. Standard of Engineering and Engineers today, bah!
That's what you get when you have graduate 'engineers'.


----------



## China hand

I think the thing is broken.


----------



## stevekelly10

I wonder if they have contemplated doing a proper job and putting her in drydock, to do a full repair ? Doubt it !!!


----------



## Varley

She is in a period of infantile failures - the steep downward slope of her bathtub failures curve. Every ship you were ever on will have experienced this to some extent.

Do not panic. The people that built her will have not only done a better job than most of us but a good job too.


----------



## Engine Serang

Perhaps Mr Cooke Priest has sabotaged her.


----------



## norm.h

I realise that there are two separate issues here, but the way it's written made me smile....
How did a shaft seal leak trigger the hangar sprinklers? (EEK)

"_The UK's new aircraft carrier, HMS Queen Elizabeth, has returned from sea trials early after a leak was found.
Water leaked into an internal compartment, where it was contained.

This latest problem follows a number of other issues including a shaft seal leak, which caused water to pour into the ship, and the accidental triggering of the sprinklers in the hangar._" 

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-48933881


----------



## sternchallis

The other thing is, 'internal compartment' , if it had been an external compartment it would have just run over the side.
Yes the shaft tunnel is perhaps the furthest from the hanger sprinklers.
Did somebody leave a valve open on the Bilge/ballast/ fire pump and overpressured the sprinklers?

Much the same way with the QE2, How did heavy oil get in the boiler sight glass?
Somebody piped it up wrong.

I assume the Navy Press Office passed the information on to the Beeb. So with much editing this is what you end up with.
The old chestnut, 
Message outgoing " Send reinforcements , we are going to advance"

Message received via various departments: 
" Send 3/4d we are going to a dance ".
(Pint)


----------



## norm.h

From the same link:

"_Water leaked into an internal compartment, where it was contained.
It was pumped out and_........."

I don't mean to be picky, but if something is 'contained' it's kept. How can they keep it _and_ pump it away? (?HUH)


----------



## howardang

norm.h said:


> From the same link:
> 
> "_Water leaked into an internal compartment, where it was contained.
> It was pumped out and_........."
> 
> I don't mean to be picky, but if something is 'contained' it's kept. How can they keep it _and_ pump it away? (?HUH)


Kept or contained within the compartment avoiding flooding elsewhere until it was pumped out, when it would no longer be contained. That's how I read it.

Howard


----------



## sternchallis

It was in the tunnel bilge and they pumped it out as we would have done.
Ours would have gone straight over the side, theirs perhaps went via the OWS.


----------



## stevekelly10

I wonder if it will be fixed in time, to help protect British tankers in the Straits of Homuz ?


----------



## waldziu

On the subject of RN ships flooding, dit on. I was onboard HMS Fife alongside The Belfast (old ships). I was duty engineering PO when I heard the main broadcast, 'Flood, Flood, Flood. Flood on the bridge.' I thinks to my self we is in trouble here if the bridge is flooded. I stepped out of the mess in The Great Glen (main drag/ Burma way to see the river Thames cascading down the ladderway from the deck above. Story short, the air relief Vv on the fire-main in the Admirals bridgeheads had failed. thereby pumping the Thames at 100psi into the ship. Apart from mogging up the table laid out for the reception of all previous captains of Fife we did not sink.


----------



## OilJiver

Great tale! Thanks Waldziu.

OJ


----------



## Engine Serang

My experience of new merchant ships is that equipment is set to work during the last few weeks alongside followed by a day at sea to confirm speed etc. Minor problems are sorted out by the Superintendent, Master and Chief being Dashed a few bob for the crew to bring things up to scratch.

Naval ships invariably go through months of FATS, HATS and SATS, integration of electronic equipment being paramount. Minor problems should be put on a defect list to be attended to next time in port. Dash is not a RN tradition.

The carry-on with HMS QE leads one to believe that either there are major problems on board or that there are minor problems being amplified by disaffected persons for some strange reason. Hundreds of the ships company with smart phones doesn't help but one gets the impression that morale may not be high on that unit.


----------



## Bill.B

Last new build sea trial in 2018, 50,000mt product tankers, was 5 days of extensive testing. All tanks were filled and emptied. All systems were tested. Minor hiccups were corrected or listed for remedy back alongside. In deep water both anchors were wound out fully then retrieved. Speed runs, steering tests etc. They weren’t cruises by any means. A cast of many most sleeping two to a single cabin or more in senior staterooms. Very intense but interesting trips.


----------



## Ron Stringer

#49 sounds just like all seatrials of merchant ships that I went on during the 1960s/'70s and '80s while working as a radio technician. Three-day trials were the norm, with repeats if things were not sorted.


----------



## sternchallis

Wasn't that the ship the the Old Man got done for using the ships hire car for personel use and he was very popular with everybody. He even paid for the petrol, so the Navy was out to get him. Perhaps this upset everybody and they are letting the press hear stuff.
If Whitehall and the FCO can leak emails then the boys can let the odd reporter know a few things and hope they get a week in drydock and shore leave.


----------



## budrover

Very simple answer to the 284 valves being replaced.

To reduce the amount of time the HMS Queen Elizabeth is in drydock - all the ships side valves were replaced, the removed valves will be overhauled and used on HMS Prince of Wales drydock.

The original intention was to have 3 aircraft carrier - 'smart drydocking' reduces the time the vessel is out of service.


----------



## NINJA

I have recently read the Battle for the Atlantic, an excellent book regarding the U boat war, we were lucky that Hitler had the obsession with big ships, rather than as Donitez wanted to build u boats to starve us.

Looking at these two aircraft carriers is this dogma still prevailing, we have two aircraft carriers nothing to fly of them, nothing to surround them for protection when they put to see.

Look at a US battlle fleet protecting there carriers when at sea.

We need frigates but all the money has gone into this big ship obsession, I am surprised there is enough nan power to actually man them to full strength.


----------



## Dickyboy

NINJA said:


> I have recently read the Battle for the Atlantic, an excellent book regarding the U boat war, we were lucky that Hitler had the obsession with big ships, rather than as Donitez wanted to build u boats to starve us.
> 
> Looking at these two aircraft carriers is this dogma still prevailing, we have two aircraft carriers nothing to fly of them, nothing to surround them for protection when they put to see.
> 
> Look at a US battlle fleet protecting there carriers when at sea.
> 
> We need frigates but all the money has gone into this big ship obsession, I am surprised there is enough nan power to actually man them to full strength.


There was a clip on the news the other day about the RN Fleet being vastly increased. I only caught it once, and might just have been an election ploy. I agree that we need more destroyers & frigates as we have (Or will have) all our eggs in two large baskets.


----------



## Basil

NINJA said:


> nothing to surround them for protection when they put to see.


That's been my feeling since I first heard of them.


----------



## Basil

YM-Mundrabilla said:


> Forgive me for I am konfuzed.
> Is the LH valve bit a belated April Fool's joke?
> If so, on one hand, it has reached the stage that I don't know whether to believe it or not whilst, on the other hand, the concept seems so outrageous that it might just be true. (Too many hands doing we know not what, perhaps).(egg)
> If true, who uses LH valves and for what purpose?


Just noticed your posting and don't know if anyone has answered.
The left handed stop valve - 'a very unusual thing' of much mirth in the famous rude song - was, in fact a reality.
Some valve designs required a left-hand thread to be cut in order to make a traditional right-hand valve.
There were some workshops which did not have the facilities to cut a left-hand thread so applied a right-hand thread to the valve which made it left-hand.


----------



## sternchallis

Basil,
You didn't answer the question.
In what instances would a LH threaded valve be used, I cannot say I have ever come across one.
You always told the apprentice to ask for a ball of Whitworth thread, and make sure its right handed when you sent him to the stores.


----------



## Basil

sternchallis said:


> Basil,
> *You didn't answer the question.
> In what instances would a LH threaded valve be used*, I cannot say I have ever come across one.
> You always told the apprentice to ask for a ball of Whitworth thread, and make sure its right handed when you sent him to the stores.




OK, only if that's what you were presented with because of the manufacturing constraints which I mentioned. e.g. a gate v/v with the thread going into the gate.
VERY counter-intuitive and confusing.

p.s. in my day you sent the apprentice to stores for a long stand


----------



## OilJiver

Non rising stem.


----------



## sternchallis

It may have been left hand thread but you would still open and close in the normal manner, otherwise there would have been some smashed spindles and confusion.


----------



## seaman38

Don't know about LH V/V's, but do recall that the retaining nut on the RH rotating propeller boss was a LH thread

Will be travelling for a few days, looks like I'm in for a lot of wet weather driving, always found at sea that the Kent Clearview rotating screen was better than windscreen wipers. Wonder if the Kent on a car would be legal!


----------



## stevekelly10

OilJiver said:


> Non rising stem.


I have nightmares about one such valve ! Trouble I was awake when it happened !


----------



## budrover

We have quality vs quantity. The type 45 is renown for having the best air defence system in the world. The US battle groups will ask a type 45 to take over air defence duties when up the Gulf.

The F35 planes fly & land and time is needed for military electronic information to be shared between the plane, astute submarine, type 45 and aircraft carrier - this electronic information sharing gives a world leading defence force.
The battle group also consist of a couple of new MARs takers, Fort Victoria as solid support and new type 26 frigates under construction.
The astute submarine is a formidable deterrent combined with type 45 gives good protection to the carrier


----------



## sternchallis

stevekelly10 said:


> I have nightmares about one such valve ! Trouble I was awake when it happened !


They say, 2 of Sand and 1 of Cement will cure it.


----------



## Pat Kennedy

sternchallis said:


> Basil,
> You didn't answer the question.
> In what instances would a LH threaded valve be used, I cannot say I have ever come across one.
> You always told the apprentice to ask for a ball of Whitworth thread, and make sure its right handed when you sent him to the stores.


Gas cylinders containing a flammable gas are always fitted with left hand threaded valve outlets. Indentified by a notch cut in the hexagonal 
connecting nut.(Smoke)


----------



## Duncan112

Pat Kennedy said:


> Gas cylinders containing a flammable gas are always fitted with left hand threaded valve outlets. Indentified by a notch cut in the hexagonal
> connecting nut.(Smoke)


But the cylinder valves are still right handed.

(Somewhere and I can't for the life of me remember where I came across pipe couplings that were right handed on one end and left handed on the other so the same direction tightened and loosened both fittings)

The regulator you turn clockwise to increase pressure though.

At the back of my mind I think some of the deck valves on BP's "River Class" were left handed (anticlockwise to shut)


----------



## stevekelly10

sternchallis said:


> They say, 2 of Sand and 1 of Cement will cure it.


Not this time ! It was the main condenser overboard valve. The nut holding the spindle in the motorised unit fell off ! the spindle dropped down and the valve slammed shut, followed by a large jet of water spraying into the engineroom. To make matters worse we were loading at Juyamah, Saudi Arabia at the time and we had to be towed off the loading Bouy


----------



## Basil

Pat Kennedy said:


> Gas cylinders containing a flammable gas are always fitted with left hand threaded valve outlets. Indentified by a notch cut in the hexagonal
> connecting nut.(Smoke)


A friend damaged the skin on his hand because, when he picked up a gas cylinder by the valve, he didn't notice that it wasn't fully closed and the expanding gas had lowered the v/v temp to substantially below freezing.
Fortunately the frostbite damage wasn't too deep and eventually healed up OK.


----------



## sternchallis

Those LH threads are so you don't fit the regulators on the wrong bottle as we all know. Prop nuts and similar accepted, but I was thinking in terms of valves you turned the opposite to convention to close.


----------



## Pat Kennedy

Basil said:


> A friend damaged the skin on his hand because, when he picked up a gas cylinder by the valve, he didn't notice that it wasn't fully closed and the expanding gas had lowered the v/v temp to substantially below freezing.
> Fortunately the frostbite damage wasn't too deep and eventually healed up OK.


I once delivered 25 compressed air cylinders to Manchester Airport cargo facility for shipment to Sharjah. They were all fully pressurised to 300 bar. The receiving clerk at the cargo facility wouldn't accept them pressurised and told me to discharge the air from them. They were stacked in a small warehouse building ready for shipment, and I opened all the valves to release the contents, then opened the double doors. It was cold and wet outside so the cargo superintendant closed the doors and told me to go. I said, well you better get some barley sugar to suck and use gloves to handle the cylinders because there will be an almighty increase in air pressure in here and those cyls will be freezing.
That was met with condescending laughter and a shooing motion.
I got my paperwork signed and scarpered. 
Experts !


----------



## YM-Mundrabilla

In K-Mart years ago when, amongst all the other stuff, they sold car batteries. I had bought a battery and lifted it from the trolley to the check out for the young bird to scan it.

It didn't scan for some reason so, in a flash of light, bird tips it over presumably looking for a bar-code on the bottom. It wasn't one of those sealed types so acid starts to run out on the bench. By this time I had realised what she was doing and about to do so was able to stop her. She had grabbed a plastic grocery type carry bag and was about to launch into the acid with it.

Thankfully, there was a heap of water bottles on a stand nearby from which I grabbed one and poured it onto the spill. 

No they didn't teach kids anything in schools then either.


----------



## skilly57

Japanese Niigata marine engines have a left-handed valve just below the fuel lever for the local air start control and blowing over. Works fine, ONCE YOU KNOW it is left-handed!!


----------

