# Silver Guava merchant navy ship



## Bengal

Hi there. I'm new to this site and not really sure what I'm doing. My family are trying to trace our genealogy and thought we'd start with our Father. He was from Bangladesh which was previously East Pakistan/India. Born in 1921.
He used to tell us stories of being a greaser on board the above ship but we know nothing more. Would be great if anyone out there could help me, as in where could I find more info about the ship and who sailed on it.

Thank you.


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## Ron Stringer

Bengal said:


> Hi there. I'm new to this site and not really sure what I'm doing. My family are trying to trace our genealogy and thought we'd start with our Father. He was from Bangladesh which was previously East Pakistan/India. Born in 1921.
> He used to tell us stories of being a greaser on board the above ship but we know nothing more. Would be great if anyone out there could help me, as in where could I find more info about the ship and who sailed on it.
> 
> Thank you.


He would have most probably been recruited and appointed to the ship via Calcutta, which is one of only two ports on the sub-Continent (the other was Bombay/Mumbai) that provided crews for western shipowners. I have no information about any records held in India today, although I note from travel/history programmes on TV that the Indian Civil Service were ferocious about creating and maintaining written records of all kinds.

However as the ship (built in 1927) was owned by a British shipping company and was active prior to and during WW2, it is likely that records of the crew and the ports visited by the vessel are held in the UK National Archive at Kew, South London. There are definitely members here on SN who are able to advise you what information you can get on line, and how to proceed to obtain information that is, as yet, only available by visiting the Archive.

Good luck


One of the other members here should be able to give you a starting point.


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello and welcome,
As stated by Ron, there may well be records for him at TNA Kew. 
Could you give us his full name, date and place of birth and if possible his Discharge A number.

regards
Roger.


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## A.D.FROST

SILVERGUAVA Silver Line/S&J Thompson bt.1927 SirJamesLaing,Sunderland.Sold 1952r/n ORSA b/u Trieste1963
He may have been on War service on her


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello again,
SILVERGUAVA official number 149850. Her wartime crew agreements and logbooks are at TNA Kew.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.g...p=149850&_cr=bt381&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv

You would be advised to visit personally. Whilst there you could look up other records for him. We need to know the the answers to my previous post so that you can be advised where to look.
regards
Roger


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## Erimus

Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld.....

Well Roger, I do tend to agree here....but some on SN could take a note of the sentiments!

geoff


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello Geoff, 
I guess every forum is the same, people putting their mouths in gear before absorbing all the facts or worse still, recounting downright untruths, thus sending folks on a wild goose chase before coming to a dead end.
Still, at least they bother to reply which is more than the OP of this thread has done.

regards
Roger.


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## Freda

Hi everyone.
I just want to say thank you for all your responses. Unfortunately to illness, I've been unable to respond.
My family and I are still looking into this matter and will try and keep you updated as to what we find.
If there is anything else anyone could advise, that would be welcome.
Thank you all again


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## Freda

Roger Griffiths said:


> Hello and welcome,
> As stated by Ron, there may well be records for him at TNA Kew.
> Could you give us his full name, date and place of birth and if possible his Discharge A number.
> 
> regards
> Roger.


My father's name was Shahnoor Meah, (possibly also spelt Shanoor Miah).
DOB: 05/05/1921
Place of birth: Moulvi Bazar, Bangladesh
I do not have his Discharge A papers unfortunately


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## Freda

A.D.FROST said:


> SILVERGUAVA Silver Line/S&J Thompson bt.1927 SirJamesLaing,Sunderland.Sold 1952r/n ORSA b/u Trieste1963
> He may have been on War service on her
> View attachment 169338
> View attachment 169346


May I just say, I know nothing about ships or to be honest about my father's life at the time, he was born in 1921 and I was born in 1968. So shamefully, wasn't too interested. I now wish I had paid more attention.
Anyway, if you could clarify what you have written, that would be great. Thank you.


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## A.D.FROST

Freda said:


> May I just say, I know nothing about ships or to be honest about my father's life at the time, he was born in 1921 and I was born in 1968. So shamefully, wasn't too interested. I now wish I had paid more attention.
> Anyway, if you could clarify what you have written, that would be great. Thank you.


He would have been 20 when WWII broke out and so therefore the ship would have been under control of the MOWT and would not be on regular company runs and when peace was restored the company was taken over by a tramp company.


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## Roger Griffiths

Researching Asian seamen is never easy. I can find no primary on line records for him.
If he has any records anywhere they will be here.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=bt382/3087&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv

You cannot see the record on line. You would need to go to the archives in person or appoint a researcher to look for you. Whilst there you can also look up the information I gave in my post of July 23.

regards
Roger


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## Freda

Roger Griffiths said:


> Researching Asian seamen is never easy. I can find no primary on line records for him.
> If he has any records anywhere they will be here.
> http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=bt382/3087&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv
> 
> You cannot see the record on line. You would need to go to the archives in person or appoint a researcher to look for you. Whilst there you can also look up the information I gave in my post of July 23.
> 
> regards
> Roger


Ok. Thank you for all your help Roger. 
Much appreciated.


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## Freda

Hello everyone.
I have found a little more information in regards to my father. I don't know how useful it is, but would still appreciate any help and advice. I know my best option would be to visit the archives but as I said before, I wouldn't have a clue as to where to start. 

Hopefully I've managed to attach the photo I have lol.


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## Freda

I don't know whether the photo is visible to you, so to let you know, it appears my father's name was spelt, Shanur Meah, (son of Aftar Meah). Not the spelling I originally wrote.
OFF. No. 149350.


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## Freda

I just thought I'd update everyone who contributed to my post. I went with three of my siblings yesterday for the first time, to TNA. As expected, we didn't find anything on our father. But we will keep searching and perhaps one day, we will know a little more about his life on the ships.
So thank you for all your help in pointing me in the right direction.


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello Freda,
Thanks for updating us.
The first time I went to TNA, I found nothing too! Don't let it put you off. Keep plugging away!

Reading your posts again, a couple of glaring oversights.
On the ID Card that you posted, The ships official stamp gives an Official Number of 149350. The O/N of SILVERGUAVA was in fact 149*8*50. I have checked this in several different sources and all say 149850. Also on that ID Card it gives dates of 8/8/1947 and JAN 16/1948. So your dad must have been on board around that time.
We concentrated on the war years. (shortsighted -----!)
What you now can do on your next visit to TNA, is to look at the 1947 Logbooks and Crew Agreements of SILVERGUAVA. This should give you his, previous ship, his discharge A number as well as other personal details. This number is unique to him and an essential aid to finding his MN records in more detail.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6030170
Her 1948 C/A's and L/B's are in Piece BT99/7675
Please keep us up to speed. 

regards
Roger


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## Freda

Thank you Roger, will do.

I just spoke to my brother, and that was one of the files we checked. No luck in that one I'm afraid.

Also, from some of the stories our father recounted, he told us he was a prisoner of war. So we're also now trying to find any information along those lines as well. More than likely he would have been on another ship before Silverguava. Any advice about how we check POW records? Or possibly finding information of ships that were captured In Asia maybe?


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello Freda,
I checked some pages regarding MN POW's released from German hands in 1945.
All I came up with is SUZATH MEAH and SAUNA MEAH.

I think you need to look at these files from TNA.

Subseries in BT382 Part 6: Prisoners of War and Internees
Subseries within BT 382 - Lascars (Indian), 1940-1945
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11001340

Also, have a trawl through these 400 plus records to see if you can find him. They are a mixture of different pieces using the search term MEAH.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r/1?_ep=meah&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv

Also searched using the term MEAH S No one fits his Date of birth.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=meah s&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv
That said Merchant Seamen regularly lied about there age usually to attract a larger salary.
Thats why it's important to Have his DIS A number.

Finally, You need to look at the 1948 Crew Agreements to try and find his Discharge A number.
Like I said "Researching Asian seamen is never easy"

regards Roger


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## Freda

Ok, thank you Roger. The only information we have about my dad being a POW is based on the stories he told us, he'd say how he was held by the Japanese. But dont know, exactly which country that would have been in. We really are fumbling around in the dark, but really do appreciate all your time and trouble Roger in replying to my posts.
Thank you


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## Edward Greenaway

Hello ... I registered so I could say thank you:
* to the Original Poster for asking after the Silver Guava/Silverguava which led me to this thread, and 
* to Roger for his helpful links. 

Through your collective help and The National Archive links I was able to decode and locate records for my father's years of service (1939-1946) in the Merchant Navy aboard these ships which I think I have now successfully decoded the start and end of the a list of vessels on the inside cover of my father's book of mathematical tables:
1. MV Silverguava
2. MV Silverash
3. SS C??????BERG
4. SS A????PAS
5. SS ??????????AR
6. MV Silversandal
7. SS Aquatania

Numbers 1, 2 and 6 were ships from the Silver line.
The last was from the Cunard White Star line.
So perhaps 3, 4, and 5 were also belonging to the Silver line ?
An opportunity for more research 

And for the OP/Freda I suspect our fathers' periods of service did not overlap as the Silverguava appears to be his first.


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello Edward,
I don't know if you have seen this site
https://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsalpha?shipsearch=pas&SearchType=Ends&submit=search
You can search using the last three letters of the ships name.
I cannot find any of the unnamed vessels you have listed. That said the link only lists British ships it may well be he served on Allied vessels as well.

Have you obtained your fathers Form CRS10? this will tell you the name or official number of all the vessels he served on British or Allied, from early 1941.
If you do not have this form, could you give us your fathers full name, date and place of birth so as we can direct you to these records.

If possible could you post, as an attachment, the list you have from your dad's mathematical tables.

regards
Roger


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## Edward Greenaway

Many thanks Roger, I appreciate the link and also like you tried some leading or trailing character searches to no avail. I am attaching a brightly lit picture take by a phone ... a PDF seemed the best way of not compromising the quality although it turned out to be much bigger than the image itself !

My father's full name was Edward William Isaac Greenaway born 7 January 1920 ... died January 1972 ... and on one record (also attached) is an annotation that looks like "CRS101" ???

His birthplace was South Africa, possibly Pietermaritzburg ?


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## Edward Greenaway

PS on my mother's side wee have Welsh roots being Kyffin


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## Hugh MacLean

Hello and welcome Edward

CRS 101 = Application form for ribbon 1939/45 Star. I would suggest he probably was entitled to more campaign medals than just the 1939-45 Star. If nothing else he was definitely entitled to wear the War Medal.

I have him aboard SILVERGUAVA joining on 13.6.1942 at Liverpool as assistant engineer. Arriving New York on 10.2.1943. I also have him aboard AQUITANIA leaving Southampton on 4.1.1948 bound for Halifax NS. He is noted as ship's crew Silver Line.
He has a Seaman's Pouch held at Kew in piece *BT 372/645/92* 

His CRS 10 - service record from Jan, 1941 should be held at Kew in piece *BT 382/688 *
This file should list all of his ships although it wont show vessels he was travelling on as a passanger such as AQUITANIA.
Regards
Hugh


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello Edward,
Thanks for posting the page from your dads Mathmatical tables.
Hugh has given you the links.
The first link he gave was to the series BT372. "Seamans Pouch's. 

These records relate to individual seamen filed together in a pouch. These do***ents may include application forms, certificates, identity cards,(most with a photograph of the seaman) cessation do***ents and notifications of death.
As these do***ents relate to an individual and are catalogued as such, they should be easy to find and copy, therefore, theoretically, they should be relatively cheap. I have long given up on how TNA fix a charge for copying. You would need to ask for a quote.

The second link Hugh gave was to the series BT382. Because these records are in blocks of 60 names, TNA would consider it research and charge accordingly. Again it appears that no fixed fee is applicable. I have heard of people being quoted £80 plus!

In all honesty. you would be advised to visit Kew yourself. you can the view both sets of do***ents for free and whilst there extend your research to maybe look at the logbooks of the vessels he sailed on.
If it's problematic for you to visit Kew. Let me know and I will attempt to take a look for you next time I visit. Whenever that may be.

regards
Roger


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## Edward Greenaway

Fantastic Hugh
Thank you so much
From memory (my sister has them) he had three medals.

You have give me/us great leads.
Wonderful.


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## Edward Greenaway

Roger Griffiths said:


> <snipped>
> In all honesty. you would be advised to visit Kew yourself. you can the view both sets of do***ents for free and whilst there extend your research to maybe look at the logbooks of the vessels he sailed on.
> If it's problematic for you to visit Kew. Let me know and I will attempt to take a look for you next time I visit. Whenever that may be.
> 
> regards
> Roger


Thank you once again for helping to crack the code.

Life is about timing is it not ... I was in the UK in December !
If only I had known this then 

So I shall have to wait until some point in the future ... I have shared our correspondence with my sister in Perth, I am in Melbourne, and I find it a strange coincidence that some of our father's voyages brought him here. Although he never mentioned Australia, he did say from his voyages that he loved the Seattle / Vancouver area.

As a family we might decide to pay TNA fees or we might prevail upon your kind offer at some time in the future !

For now I will keep trying to peer through the scrubbed names and decipher them !


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## vmr

Reading The Above Post I Can see How Hard To Get Info On A Relertive, I Have Been On The Web To TNA Site From Australia, TNA Is Closed At The Moment So I Managed To Get The Following My Mothers Father Started As cadet With BI,FREDERICK HERBERT RENDELL D.O.B. 28/10/1904 Cricklewoods ID Number 219986,Discharge Number R17142, Managed To Get From TNA 1944-1945 referance BT391/91/208 What Information Would This Show? I Will Have To Wait Till The TNA Reopens? Many Thanks If Any Help Here Cheers To All VMR.


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## Hugh MacLean

Hi vmr,
BT 391/91/208 is his Combined Office Merchant Navy Operations [COMNO] Pouch. It indicates he had service during or shortly after the Normandy campaign. The pouch will indicate what ship he was serving on at the time but as per many pouches the contents are a hit or a miss. I would suggest that the main record you need to obtain from TNA Kew is his CRS 10 [service record] which will detail all his ships beginning January, 1941. The link to the file is *BT 382/1496* unfortunately this file is best obtained by visit to Kew or via a researcher.

He has a CR10 card with id photo along with a CR1 card from the Fourth Register of Seamen and he appears to have served int the following ships:

120471 – CARPENTARIA – 3.1921
141920 – NARDANA – 6.12.1926

The list is more than likely incomplete for service prior to 1941 as the cards are known to have mistakes and omissions. If you do not already have them I am happy to send on via email if you wish. Just private message your email to me. 

Hope that helps.

*same offer applies to you Edward if you wish the do***ents I have for Edward Greenaway just pass on your email by pm. 

Regards
Hugh


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## Roger Griffiths

Hello vmr,
Will Have To Wait Till The TNA Reopens? 
I am afraid so. As far as I know most TNA staff have been furloughed.
His form CRS10 is the key to this one. Once you have obtained it you can then backtrack via crew agreements and with a little luck, find all of the vessels he sailed.

I make the same offer to you as I made to Edward.

"If it's problematic for you to visit Kew. Let me know and I will attempt to take a look for you next time I visit. Whenever that may be."

regards
Roger


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## vmr

Hi To HUGH & Roger, Many Thanks For Your Great Help,A Bit Hard Being In Australia And At 80 Years Dont Think I Will Be Able To Get To The UK, TNA Is A Hard Site To Navigate! Ill PM My Email Addresse Many Thanks Again Cheers VMR


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