# Was Celestial Navigation a chore?



## Sipowitz

A bit of background. I first went to sea in 2000, obviously a fair while (15 years? 10?) after GPS became ubiquitous. 

None of the ships I was on routinely practiced Celestial Navigation but Cadets were expected to learn it well and the Deck Officers normally put a fair bit of effort into ensuring we did.

I enjoy taking and working sights seeing it as something that set us apart (anyone can read a Lat. Long. from a GPS) but most didn't and only did what they had to do although like all of us became quite proficient.

So, my question is for those at sea pre-GPS did you enjoy taking sights every watch? Did you look into it more thoroughly, and try different techniques, or did you just do what was required to get a position?


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## Wallace Slough

Having sailed offshore from 1966 - 1972 when GPS was not available, I loved celestial navigation and prided myself in obtaining sights whenever conditions allowed. I also used whatever celestial bodies (moon, sun, stars, planets) were available to fix my position. I found navigation in general to be very interesting and always cross checked my position with whatever systems were available to confirm they were correct.


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## Stephen J. Card

I agree. I never missed an arrival after an ocean crossing! I never sailed with GPS... even as later as 1991. I hope today's navigators are competent in the use of a sextant. Should that GPS or you electronic charts fail you are deep kak!


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## Pilot mac

Gone are the days when you would travel with your own sextant!I When I completed my apprenticeship I was given £100 by my then employers to supposedly buy a sextant. I enjoyed taking solar and stellar sights and if you had a decent sextant you could catch Venus on the meridian, mid afternoon.
I do believe however that you need to do a lot of it to be any good at it.


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## Julian Calvin

Deeply satisfying preparing to take sights on the 4-8 and then taking at least six Stars/planets whatever.
Always tried to get one on the meridian.
Then came the job of plotting them on a self made plotting sheet and seeing what size ‘cocked hat’ resulted.
Favourite star was “Zebenelgunubi” which sounded so good.


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## John Cassels

Well , I must be the odd one out. I was 2nd.mate from 1969 to 1974 - also long before GPS . To me , morning and noon sights were a real hit and miss afair in all but the most ideal conditions. It was in effect a simple running fix with an estimated run between the p/l 's.
And taking the sight itself on the bridge wing of a ship rolling and pitching and probably a dodgy horizon ?., what height of eye correction to use ?. Get the noon position and draw a 5 mile circle and you might possibly be inside that circle .


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## P.Arnold

I enjoyed Sunday noon sights, seeing 2nd ,3rd mate and OM placing their positions on the chart. Cocked hat was the norm


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## R798780

Loved it and, contrary to John #6, had some very good results. One trip as third mate I took morning sights of the sun only just visible as a hazy blob through an overcast sky. I put her 15 miles astern of the DR. They didn't believe me. Similar but worse position next day. 3rd Mate can't be trusted. Third day the sun shone. 60 miles astern of the DR !!! 

A snippet from something I wrote long before GPS. 
"The noon latitude is generally crossed with a PL transferred up from sight, the noon latitude itself being corrected to 1200 ship’s time if the meridian passage is not at that time. The result is the noon position, occasionally with second mates leaping up and down and saying it’s a good one today and looking like the Cheshire Cat until Captain Sahib rolls in saying it’s rubbish, she’s not there, we’ll wait till the mate gets stars; but he signs the noon book anyway".

As 2nd Mate we got a noon position that the old man liked. "I didn't believe we were there"; he said pointing to the Mate's morning stars position. And he used a stop watch, everyone else trudged off counting seconds.

Then as Mate I loved taking stars.


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## Stephen J. Card

Cocked hat on Sundays? Must have been 'pis*ed! They might be a 'different answer for Longitude, but Latitude would be the same unless their sextants were in error. Anyhow, this is the reason why the Old Man should not interfere and just let the 2nd Mate to call it. 








P.Arnold said:


> I enjoyed Sunday noon sights, seeing 2nd ,3rd mate and OM placing their positions on the chart. Cocked hat was the norm


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## vasco

Sipowitz said:


> A bit of background. I first went to sea in 2000, obviously a fair while (15 years? 10?) after GPS became ubiquitous.
> 
> None of the ships I was on routinely practiced Celestial Navigation but Cadets were expected to learn it well and the Deck Officers normally put a fair bit of effort into ensuring we did.
> 
> I enjoy taking and working sights seeing it as something that set us apart (anyone can read a Lat. Long. from a GPS) but most didn't and only did what they had to do although like all of us became quite proficient.
> 
> So, my question is for those at sea pre-GPS did you enjoy taking sights every watch? Did you look into it more thoroughly, and try different techniques, or did you just do what was required to get a position?


Look at it this way, if you leave the UK and head for some obscure South American Port, or even better cross the Pacific and make land fall near where you expect it to be, would you get as much satisfaction as using a GPS. I wouldn't and this is why using a sextant, chronometer and tables (no calculator) has always been one of my greatest achievements and given me immense job satisfaction. Provided there's no clouds. Despite knowing (and forgetting) the Theory, there is something magical about it. Not every day was enjoyable, or every master considerate.

I have been retired for about 6 yrs now, left just before digital charts. I look at ships on TV and say to myself, proudly, I can do that, whether it is securing cargo or discharging Gas. Sometimes I have to pinch myself and wonder how I did it. Much like quite a few did when I was doing it!

Some look back at the good old days because of runs ashore and getting drunk. I have my fair share of those memories, combine them with what I said above and I consider myself very lucky.


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## loco

See my reply here, post #72;

Southern Cross | Page 4 | Ships Nostalgia

It wasn't a bind, and the satisfaction of finding land more or less where and when you expected after an ocean passage was pleasing. But not being able to get sights for a day or two approaching land could be a bit nerve wracking until a terrestrial fix was obtained and confirmed.

It also passed some time on an otherwise quiet watch on some occasions.

Early forms of Satnav could also be a bit hit and miss, when sometimes the machine calculated a fix on average roughly hourly, but they could be much closer in time than that, and if two or more satellites in view simultaneously by the machine, then it couldn't use them and there could be a long time, several hours, between fixes.

I never did have a Master take sights on a ship that I recall, just the three watchkeeping officers, as described in the thread. As a cadet, every Sunday, if on ocean passage, was sun sights day, usually under the tutelage of the 3/O.

I always wanted a John Wayne sextant; he just pointed it at the sun, looked at the dial, pointed at a chart, and said 'we're here'; never found one like that.........

Martyn


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## Stephen J. Card

As 3rd and 2nd.... yes it was an enjoyable part of the job. As Mate... well, two lots of sights, sunrise and sunset. It was only annoyance when sight had to be taken and then worked out right near the end of the watch! 

On one vessel the Mate did sights as usual. I took over at 0800. Soon after I started talking the first sun sights. I work a DR from the Mates position from 0600 sight. Anyhow, my P/L was way out... like 30 miles. I went back and too a new set. Same again. Big difference. I went back to the Mate's star sight pos'n. That appear to be right. I went back to the Mate's evening sights. That appeared to be right too. Then I saw the 'error' This position was way our when compared to the NOON the previous day. I took the Mate's sight book. It was gibberish. Just four or five stars and then meaningless numbers. It was right obvious tthat the Mate was not taking star sight at all. He was fluffing it all along. Just a 'DR' that was pretending to be a star sight. 2nd Mate come up and I showed him what I had found. The Old Man was told and he decided not to tell the Mate. Instead of putting our Noon position on the chart, the 2nd Mate put a 'wrong' position on the chart. The Mate's evening stars were again 'fluff. Moring stars... again fluff. The Old Man then took the Mate to task. Mate was in his 50s. I do not know what was actually said. We had a crew change in Trieste and I think the mate left the following day. I do know on one of the Bridge OBO's, might be EDEN or SPEY, he was de-ballasting the No. 4 hold tank. He opened the drop valve to run the ballast down to water level. He failed to open any air lines and the result was a pair buckled hatch covers! 

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card

When was the last time you saw a bridge with an OPEN bridge wing? Would take a hike up several deck to get a place to take the sights. Meanwhile sextant is hanging from a lanyard around you neck with a pencil and a scrap of paper. Glance a look at your trusty digital watch or use a stopwatch. If you are pacing out the seconds to get back to the wheelhouse you will have a cocked hat as big as your.... you know what!


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## Wallace Slough

I enjoyed reading Stephen's #12 and find it remarkable that the mate got away with it as long as he did. Incompetence! 
I recall as second mate sailing from Karachi bound around Cape Good Hope as Suez was closed in 1969. I plotted my 5 morning stars and the position was about 30 miles out from our DR position. I immediately checked the magnetic compass against the gyro and it looked OK. Then I took an azimuth of the sun and confirmed that the gyro compass was indeed correct. Then I went back to my calculations and pored over them and couldn't find any error. About this time the captain came into the chartroom and I told him I knew my position was incorrect but couldn't find the error in my calculation. He glanced at them briefly and said, "you took your chronometer error the wrong way." He then proceeded to ream my rear end out for making such a stupid error. I learned a lot from this experience and whenever I was reviewing some important paperwork that had to be correct I would always have a second set of eyes (another person) review it to confirm it was correct. A valuable lesson indeed.


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## John Cassels

Stephen J. Card said:


> As 3rd and 2nd.... yes it was an enjoyable part of the job. As Mate... well, two lots of sights, sunrise and sunset. It was only annoyance when sight had to be taken and then worked out right near the end of the watch!
> 
> On one vessel the Mate did sights as usual. I took over at 0800. Soon after I started talking the first sun sights. I work a DR from the Mates position from 0600 sight. Anyhow, my P/L was way out... like 30 miles. I went back and too a new set. Same again. Big difference. I went back to the Mate's star sight pos'n. That appear to be right. I went back to the Mate's evening sights. That appeared to be right too. Then I saw the 'error' This position was way our when compared to the NOON the previous day. I took the Mate's sight book. It was gibberish. Just four or five stars and then meaningless numbers. It was right obvious tthat the Mate was not taking star sight at all. He was fluffing it all along. Just a 'DR' that was pretending to be a star sight. 2nd Mate come up and I showed him what I had found. The Old Man was told and he decided not to tell the Mate. Instead of putting our Noon position on the chart, the 2nd Mate put a 'wrong' position on the chart. The Mate's evening stars were again 'fluff. Moring stars... again fluff. The Old Man then took the Mate to task. Mate was in his 50s. I do not know what was actually said. We had a crew change in Trieste and I think the mate left the following day. I do know on one of the Bridge OBO's, might be EDEN or SPEY, he was de-ballasting the No. 4 hold tank. He opened the drop valve to run the ballast down to water level. He failed to open any air lines and the result was a pair buckled hatch covers!
> 
> Stephen


Was the Speybridge and I know who you mean.
I must stand by my previous post. Morning and noon sun sights are perhaps nostalgically 
discussed but they were only important in that era because there was nothing else available and don't even talk about Loran or Consol.


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## Stephen J. Card

I would vote for Decca! For coming up the Channel... on a calm sea on a clear night with plenty of lights... beautiful! Four hour watch, the Old Man asleep in his bed, and what you would call "Deeply Satisfying"! 

Stephen


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## P.Arnold

Was that when the Decca unit, on rental contract was brought on board by the pilot off Falmouth.


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## Varley

Until their later days surely all of them were rental maintenance (did that cover the charts too?). The Maas pilots had a blacker box that was tailored to their route that plugged into the one onboard. No idea if similar boxes done for other locations.

Did we sometimes take on the Maas pilot at Falmouth?


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## Stephen J. Card

Varley said:


> s.
> 
> Did we sometimes take on the Maas pilot at Falmouth?


Not Falmouth but, Torbay yes. Not Maas pilot but Channel/North Sea, Hammond Pilots. Maas Pilot 'might' have come on board from Zeebrugge. Are you talking Seatrain boat?

Thinking... the ASIALINER incident with the arsine. Didn't the team take the ship away from Falmouth? I need to check the old Denholm News.

St


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## Stephen J. Card

Stephen J. Card said:


> ?
> 
> Thinking... the ASIALINER incident with the arsine. Didn't the team take the ship away from Falmouth? I need to check the old Denholm News.
> 
> St



Arsine Incident: November 1974 ASIAFREIGHTER.... FALMOUTH. John Cassels was Ch Off... so he can fill you in the details!

Goldmine... Denholm News!

Stephen


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## Varley

GA Stephen,
Yes I am remembering (cells permitting) GTVs. The only portable Decca related device I can remember was the one carried by the Maas pilots. I imagined weather might have made availability/logistics of joining other than by 'local' launch/helicopter on occasions.. I certainly remember some carrying Geneva with them which was offered before they left but that may be carrying them on to Greenock.


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## P.Arnold

Blue Star had Decca units come on board with North Sea pilot


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## captainconfusion

Hello you 'star gazers'. As an ignorant engineer I have a question. In the event of abandon ship, all in life boats and liferafts, I politely ask, How is the navigation effected to a safe passage, and again, what are the designs for a modern life boat/liferaft for providing modern web based communications, where or how navigation is attained- Is it by mobile phones with inbuilt chargers so that one can renew the powers able to be recharged from the power plant provided in the modern life boat/liferaft.
Is a bible still the surest way to reach an answer to ones wishes of survival.


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## Captain Moki

Sipowitz said:


> A bit of background. I first went to sea in 2000, obviously a fair while (15 years? 10?) after GPS became ubiquitous.
> 
> None of the ships I was on routinely practiced Celestial Navigation but Cadets were expected to learn it well and the Deck Officers normally put a fair bit of effort into ensuring we did.
> 
> I enjoy taking and working sights seeing it as something that set us apart (anyone can read a Lat. Long. from a GPS) but most didn't and only did what they had to do although like all of us became quite proficient.
> 
> So, my question is for those at sea pre-GPS did you enjoy taking sights every watch? Did you look into it more thoroughly, and try different techniques, or did you just do what was required to get a position?


I enjoyed celestial navigation and I sailed with 2 captains who also enjoyed same. WE WOULD DO FIXES DURING THE DAY CALCULATING A PLANET OR STARS POSITION, ensuring a good position,. also we then compare our position via sat/nav. It showed how accurate our position was! I have since my retirement trained others in these techniques And they were land lubbers but interested in the maths. I tried to teach seafarers when i got my own command. But they showed little interest. Ken!


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## Cranky

If you say you're trying to get a "fix" at noon now, it can land you in a whole lot of trouble!!!


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## Mad Landsman

Captain Moki said:


> I enjoyed celestial navigation and I sailed with 2 captains who also enjoyed same. WE WOULD DO FIXES DURING THE DAY CALCULATING A PLANET OR STARS POSITION, ensuring a good position,. also we then compare our position via sat/nav. It showed how accurate our position was! I have since my retirement trained others in these techniques And they were land lubbers but interested in the maths. I tried to teach seafarers when i got my own command. But they showed little interest. Ken!


Yes I think that I can amplify that 'from the other side'. As a landsman, with some skills, I was shown the rudiments of celestial navigation many years ago. I never had to do it and never had any practice but always thought; That's impressive, I could probably get a great deal of satisfaction doing that. But it was never to be.


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## Captain Moki

P.Arnold said:


> Blue Star had Decca units come on board with North Sea pilot


I recall Decca charts on MV. Baltic Trader AND colliers Fulham 1 & 2 Stevie Clarkes running coal from North East to Battersea power Station. I thought they were great.! Captain Moki.


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## Sipowitz

Thanks for all the replys. It seems the consensus is most did enjoy it. I suppose it was easier to take pride in it when there wasn't a black box on the chart table telling you where you are within a couple of meters!

I feel that the change from "traditional" navigation -celestial, visual, lines of soundings etc- to modern GPS/electronic chart navigation is a revolution rather than an evolution. 

There is a completely different mindset when using techniques like celestial navigation that doesn't come easy to those used to knowing instantly within meters where they are. When teaching cadets recently it was hard to get them to accept that their first ever fix (30 mile cocked hat -or worse- for example!) was valuable, they are obsessed with the idea of absolute precision/accuracy and trying to get them to accept that when your deep sea its not crucial and that something is better than nothing is hard.

However, that's the future no point in blocking progress, however I would resist any moves to completely remove celestial navigation from the deck officers skill set, it's seems irresponsible to spend time thousands of miles from the nearest dry land with no backup/non-electronic system in place (accidents do happen and I have a tale about a total GPS failure (5 independent sets fried! that I will share when I have time)

Thanks everyone


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## makko

I recently inspected a vessel and asked the deck officers if they still did sights. (The vessel had five electronic chart stations.) I was pleased that they did, to "keep their hand in" and they also mentioned it's importance IF there is a system crash. 

In my day (80's) the accuracy was a couple of hundred metres, but there was also a "missing" satellite which would leave a void! (I am but a humble engineer. However, we did have to take navigation in tech. and learn Loran/Decca navigation.) As an able mathematician, I was fascinated by the tables and calculations. When at sea, I liked wandering up to the bridge when off watch and give a hand with the chart corrections.

Rgds.
Dave


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## Pilot mac

Celestial navigation at least kept you occupied during your watch. However you cant stop progress and time moves on.
Now, with electronic charts it must be great to not have to do chart corrections. I cant begin to think how many hours I spent struggling to keep a world wide folio updated. I was lucky to sail with one owner that supplied 'tracings' but unlucky with others that supplied Notice to Mariners only.

Regards
Dave


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## taffe65

makko said:


> I recently inspected a vessel and asked the deck officers if they still did sights. (The vessel had five electronic chart stations.) I was pleased that they did, to "keep their hand in" and they also mentioned it's importance IF there is a system crash.
> 
> In my day (80's) the accuracy was a couple of hundred metres, but there was also a "missing" satellite which would leave a void! (I am but a humble engineer. However, we did have to take navigation in tech. and learn Loran/Decca navigation.) As an able mathematician, I was fascinated by the tables and calculations. When at sea, I liked wandering up to the bridge when off watch and give a hand with the chart corrections.
> 
> Rgds.
> Dave


The only corrections i was concerned with post watch were to "maintain" correct fluid levels,could only be carried out in officers bar fortunately 😜 .


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## P.Arnold

On the Globtik Tokyo in the mid 70’s we had the NTSS sat nav and 96 mile range 3 and 10cm OKI radars. Having spent a couple of days in dense fog close to the Lombok Straits we knew where we were. When called by another vessel on VHF asking our position, we duly informed them. They dismissed our position as incorrect. She was relying on sights, we weren’t!


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## Stephen J. Card

Pilot mac said:


> . I cant begin to think how many hours I spent struggling to keep a world wide folio updated. I was lucky to sail with one owner that supplied 'tracings' but unlucky with others that supplied Notice to Mariners only.
> 
> Regards
> Dave


Two things that made navigation enjoyable. 1. 'Tracings'! 2. An NC2 or NC77 Astro calculator. With these it was a breeze. I saw one at the Kelvin Hughes shop in London in 1976. The NC2. I saw it and I asked to 'play' with it for a couple of minutes. Some £120 later I had it my pocket. The fellow at the ship asked, "Are you a Second Mate?" I told him I was and he said, "Every Second Mate that comes through this ship goes out with one in his pocket!" About 18 months later I sold it to a 3/M and picked up the NC77. Magic!
Stephen


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## Mad Landsman

I had an NC77 in my hands only the other day. It belonged to my recently deceased BiL. 
Now in possession of his son back in Denmark.
I’m not sure he will use it again, he doesn’t currently have a boat but it will be a memento of when they sailed together.


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## Stephen J. Card

Only problem with the NC77... it can do all of the 'manual calculations'. No problem. Unfortunately at year 2000 the Sun Declination, GHA etc were lost. The NC77 was never 'updated' with all of that information. My NC77 packed up about five years ago. Now if I need this kind of information I go to earth.sun.moon on www. No problem , not much fun as the NC77 though.

Good that the old one has a gone to a good son!

Stephen


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## Chip N. Paint

Sipowitz said:


> A bit of background. I first went to sea in 2000, obviously a fair while (15 years? 10?) after GPS became ubiquitous.
> 
> None of the ships I was on routinely practiced Celestial Navigation but Cadets were expected to learn it well and the Deck Officers normally put a fair bit of effort into ensuring we did.
> 
> I enjoy taking and working sights seeing it as something that set us apart (anyone can read a Lat. Long. from a GPS) but most didn't and only did what they had to do although like all of us became quite proficient.
> 
> So, my question is for those at sea pre-GPS did you enjoy taking sights every watch? Did you look into it more thoroughly, and try different techniques, or did you just do what was required to get a position?


Gday Mate , I was a humble I.R. (Integrated Rating) on Australian ships and when I was doing lookout duties of a night on the bridge I would see one of the deck officers routinely (each day) take a position celestially. Sometimes I would be on the bridge during the day and the officer of the watch would take a position using the sun. I assume the Australian deck offers were keeping their hand in with celestial navigation in case GPS failed or was made inaccurate by world military powers .


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## JSSM

Went to sea as a galley boy in 1962 and had my first navigation lesson from the mate after several days at sea and reaching Rio from New York. I asked how he did it (meaning finding our way while seeing nothing but ocean for days) and was told the "navigation of the ship was no problem and you f--ing crew were the problem" and away he went. As the years went by tried the navy and taught myself to navigate via Mixter's Primer of Navigation. Sitting 2nd Mate, 1st mate and master's tickets years later meant i had to transform my methods into a bit more conforming ways to pass exams. As for the sextant at sea he didn't really care what method you used and I found the more practice you got the better your fixes were. Thoroughly enjoyed celestial mysteries and embraced the sat/nav and GPS also. I agree that having a bit of skill in the old sextant is a good idea in this age.


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## searover

As an R/O (they don't exist anymore) in the 50s and 60s, I enjoyed the process, occasionally, of joining the Mates at noon, and see if my calculations were of any value. Of course, one of an R/O's regular responsibilities was to supply the bridge with accurate time signals, so that entries could be put into the chronometer logbook. 
My experience was that, on each voyage, we went through several overcast days (weeks?) without sights and so depended on DR (professional) guesses - a problem overcome with the extraordinary accuracy of GPS.
One trip in the 50s, we had good noon sights, but the Captain turned the ship about because he wouldn't go through the One and a Half Channel (north of the Maldives) at night. At his request, I had made contact with his son on a vessel that was due in Colombo about 24 hours after us. By a coincidence, son and father arrived in Colombo harbour at about the same time.
When I was at sea, all electronic equipment (depth sounders, radar, Decca etc.) was officially only an 'AID to navigation' in a seafaring court of enquiry. 
I enjoyed great satisfaction on three occasions, when crossing Biscay and coming up the channel in mist and fog, when my Direction Finding skills were called upon and proved to be accurate, enabling us to arrive on time. D/F is another skill that will now be lost.
Little did I realise that those pips coming from Sputnik would be the death knell of the 100 year existence of the Radio Officer career.


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## kansas

Sipowitz said:


> A bit of background. I first went to sea in 2000, obviously a fair while (15 years? 10?) after GPS became ubiquitous.
> 
> None of the ships I was on routinely practiced Celestial Navigation but Cadets were expected to learn it well and the Deck Officers normally put a fair bit of effort into ensuring we did.
> 
> I enjoy taking and working sights seeing it as something that set us apart (anyone can read a Lat. Long. from a GPS) but most didn't and only did what they had to do although like all of us became quite proficient.
> 
> So, my question is for those at sea pre-GPS did you enjoy taking sights every watch? Did you look into it more thoroughly, and try different techniques, or did you just do what was required to get a position?





Sipowitz said:


> A bit of background. I first went to sea in 2000, obviously a fair while (15 years? 10?) after GPS became ubiquitous.
> 
> None of the ships I was on routinely practiced Celestial Navigation but Cadets were expected to learn it well and the Deck Officers normally put a fair bit of effort into ensuring we did.
> 
> I enjoy taking and working sights seeing it as something that set us apart (anyone can read a Lat. Long. from a GPS) but most didn't and only did what they had to do although like all of us became quite proficient.
> 
> So, my question is for those at sea pre-GPS did you enjoy taking sights every watch? Did you look into it more thoroughly, and try different techniques, or did you just do what was required to get a position?


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## soccerover

I was a cadet in BP in 1956 and bought my first sextant from the senior cadet George McGeoch in 1959 for 5 quid

This lovely sextant had an NPL (National Physical Laboratory) Certificate dated 1905 and it had an inlaid silver vernier scale.

I used this sextant to navigate all around the world for the next 6 years - absolutely wonderful instrument - when I left the sea in Hong Kong the chief steward came to me and said my nephew is just starting and needs a sextant - I sold it to him for 5 quid..... 

Years later - after lifetime of being a Ship Chartering Broker - I became a collector of shipping memorabilia and on a visit to London spotted the (almost) identical sextant up in the West End antique dealers - I bought it.....cost 1500 quid - love it and still have it here.


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## MMYuen

Sipowitz said:


> A bit of background. I first went to sea in 2000, obviously a fair while (15 years? 10?) after GPS became ubiquitous.
> 
> None of the ships I was on routinely practiced Celestial Navigation but Cadets were expected to learn it well and the Deck Officers normally put a fair bit of effort into ensuring we did.
> 
> I enjoy taking and working sights seeing it as something that set us apart (anyone can read a Lat. Long. from a GPS) but most didn't and only did what they had to do although like all of us became quite proficient.
> 
> So, my question is for those at sea pre-GPS did you enjoy taking sights every watch? Did you look into it more thoroughly, and try different techniques, or did you just do what was required to get a position?


Yes, I enjoyed it tremendously.Great personal satisfaction. Last took site as a 2/M in late 2001 on a research vessel just for the fun of it. I still have my sextant.


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## R798780

As second mate I got a good fix one afternoon; Moon in the east, sun in the west and Venus on the meridian; all on a good hardtropical horizon. Felt "propper chuffed" with that.


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## loco

Reply #38;

I wasn't on watch at the time, but as a cadet I seem to remember the ship being navigated northbound in the Irish Sea in thick fog by d/f only: we were too far off either coast to use radar fixes. C/O and R/O did most of the work.

Fog lifted around Anglesey before arriving at Lynas pilot.

Martyn


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## P.Arnold

Approaching North ‘channel’ Amazon River lighthouse/DF station. Approach made on DF.
Radar pretty useless due to shallow sandy beach and a tree that had inconveniently grown right in front of the L/House.


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## Scotch Boiler

I am not a navigator, but any mention of celestial navigation brings thoughts of the epic voyage in a small boat from Elephant Island to South Georgia. Frank Worsley was the navigator for Shackleton's 1914 Antarctic expedition. 800 miles across the Southern Ocean in a 24 foot boat {approx} in mostly gale conditions, pitching and tossing under black overcast skies, trying to stay upright to take a sight if you could find anything to see.


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## MMYuen

Scotch Boiler said:


> I am not a navigator, but any mention of celestial navigation brings thoughts of the epic voyage in a small boat from Elephant Island to South Georgia. Frank Worsley was the navigator for Shackleton's 1914 Antarctic expedition. 800 miles across the Southern Ocean in a 24 foot boat {approx} in mostly gale conditions, pitching and tossing under black overcast skies, trying to stay upright to take a sight if you could find anything to see.


Hi there, Yes I was C/M on the National Geographic Explorer when we made the same passage back in 2013. In a much shorter time no less. I just can't imagine how Navigator Worsely managed to obtain any decent sights in those seas and in a small craft which would offer no decent horizon due to the waves. I've also made mention of that in a book I have authored which will be coming out shortly.


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## BosunsMate

Before I went to sea I was given a sextant by an uncle who dealt with ex-military surplus. The sextant, painted Admiralty Grey is of the vernier type. I took it to my first ship only to find that the officers all had sextants of the micrometer type which were much lighter in weight. The officers would brag about how quickly they could read the altitude at noon. However, when the sea was rough and the ship was rolling about the micrometers would flap about in the wind while I was able to take a more accurate reading as the weight of the instrument made it more stable.


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## John Cassels

BosunsMate said:


> Before I went to sea I was given a sextant by an uncle who dealt with ex-military surplus. The sextant, painted Admiralty Grey is of the vernier type. I took it to my first ship only to find that the officers all had sextants of the micrometer type which were much lighter in weight. The officers would brag about how quickly they could read the altitude at noon. However, when the sea was rough and the ship was rolling about the micrometers would flap about in the wind while I was able to take a more accurate reading as the weight of the instrument made it more stable.





BosunsMate said:


> Before I went to sea I was given a sextant by an uncle who dealt with ex-military surplus. The sextant, painted Admiralty Grey is of the vernier type. I took it to my first ship only to find that the officers all had sextants of the micrometer type which were much lighter in weight. The officers would brag about how quickly they could read the altitude at noon. However, when the sea was rough and the ship was rolling about the micrometers would flap about in the wind while I was able to take a more accurate reading as the weight of the instrument made it more stable.


If the sea was rough and ship rolling , the result would be just as inaccurate no matter how heavy the sextant was.


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## George Bis

loco said:


> See my reply here, post #72;
> 
> Southern Cross | Page 4 | Ships Nostalgia
> 
> It wasn't a bind, and the satisfaction of finding land more or less where and when you expected after an ocean passage was pleasing. But not being able to get sights for a day or two approaching land could be a bit nerve wracking until a terrestrial fix was obtained and confirmed.
> 
> It also passed some time on an otherwise quiet watch on some occasions.
> 
> Early forms of Satnav could also be a bit hit and miss, when sometimes the machine calculated a fix on average roughly hourly, but they could be much closer in time than that, and if two or more satellites in view simultaneously by the machine, then it couldn't use them and there could be a long time, several hours, between fixes.
> 
> I never did have a Master take sights on a ship that I recall, just the three watchkeeping officers, as described in the thread. As a cadet, every Sunday, if on ocean passage, was sun sights day, usually under the tutelage of the 3/O.
> 
> I always wanted a John Wayne sextant; he just pointed it at the sun, looked at the dial, pointed at a chart, and said 'we're here'; never found one like that.........
> 
> Martyn


A lot of people were looking for that kind of sextant. Still thousands of ships did thousands of voyages and the vast majority arrived more or less where they should be.


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## Tony Payne

Sipowitz said:


> A bit of background. I first went to sea in 2000, obviously a fair while (15 years? 10?) after GPS became ubiquitous.
> 
> None of the ships I was on routinely practiced Celestial Navigation but Cadets were expected to learn it well and the Deck Officers normally put a fair bit of effort into ensuring we did.
> 
> I enjoy taking and working sights seeing it as something that set us apart (anyone can read a Lat. Long. from a GPS) but most didn't and only did what they had to do although like all of us became quite proficient.
> 
> So, my question is for those at sea pre-GPS did you enjoy taking sights every watch? Did you look into it more thoroughly, and try different techniques, or did you just do what was required to get a position?


Enjoyed taking sights, but was not too proud to use the American tables that simplified some of the more boring parts


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## sea-land-air

Julian Calvin said:


> Deeply satisfying preparing to take sights on the 4-8 and then taking at least six Stars/planets whatever.
> Always tried to get one on the meridian.
> Then came the job of plotting them on a self made plotting sheet and seeing what size ‘cocked hat’ resulted.
> Favourite star was “Zebenelgunubi” which sounded so good.


I just took 2stars twice -made a nice box- cap were boxed in ---


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