# Pollok & Gilmour



## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

I would appreciate any information about the Pollok and Gilmour Company of Glasgow, their ships, shipbuilding enterprises and timber operations in Canada. The business was established in 1804 but by the 1850's as well as the parent company Pollok, Gilmour & Co. the business had also grown into the following:

Rankin, Gilmour & Co. Liverpool
Allan Gilmour & Co. Quebec
Gilmour & Co. Montreal
Gilmour & Co. Ottawa
Gilmour, Rankin & Co. Miramichi
Robert Rankin & Co. St. John nb
Ferguson, Rankin & Co. Bathhurst
Hoghton, Rankin & Co. New Orleans
Pollok, Hoghton & Co. Mobile

Regarding their ships I understand that the first two purchased were the brig Mariner of 312 tons and Oxford 389 tons. Later Pollok & Gilmour established their own shipyards and built their own ships, initially named after their homesteads, properties etc:

Craighton, Faside, Fingalton, Broom, Mearns, Ronachan, Marchmont, Miramichi, Bytown, Ottawa, Trenton, Quebec, St. John, Glasgow, Wolfe's Cove, Renfrewshire, Carlton.

Then came ships named Allan Gilmour, Arthur Pollok, John Pollok, Margaret Pollok, Gilmour, Agnes Gilmour, Rankin, Ann Rankin, Barbara. 
There was also the Marchioness of Queensbury, Countess of Loudoun.

Then for whatever reason they then took names from the classics:
Argo, Achilles, Actaeon, Acme, Agamemnon, Arethusa, Apollo, Ariadne and others.

Having exhausted that they started at the top of the alphabet with:
Arthur, Allan, Ailsa, Arran, Advice, Advance, Adept, Alert, Agent, Award etc.

In 1865 they decided no longer to build wooden ships and their shipyards commenced building iron ships, as Glasgow had been the firms 'foster-mother' they adopted her patron saint, St. Mungo for the first iron vessel then came:
St. Magnus, St. Marnock, St. Monan, St. Mildred, St. Maur, St. Malo, St. Mirren, St. Malcolm and St. Margaret.

In 1880 the change to steam brought:
St. Alban's St. Andrew, St. Bernard, St. Bede, St. Columba, St. Cuthbert, St. Dunstan, St. Enoch, St. Egbert, St. Fillans, St. George, St. Hugo, St. Irene St. Jerome, St. Kilda, St. Leonards, St. Michael, St. Nicholas, St. Oswald, St. Patrick, St. Quentin, St. Ronans, St Ronald, St. Regulus, St. Stephen, St. Theodore, St. Ursula, St. Veronica and St. Winifred.

I would very much appreciate any copies of pictures, drawings, paintings of any of these ship and any physical details if at all possible.

I already have many tales regarding their ships and captains, most were excellent navigators but one stood out as being particularly bad - Captain Kevan of the 'Choice' made a winter passage from St. John to London in 1868, navigation was not his strong point he worked by dead-reckoning.
"he looked out for 16 hours to make landfall at the Lizard but picked up the Casquets on the French coast at which the captain remarked 'and no a bad landfall at all'. He was sobriety itself all the way across but when the pilot boarded off Dover he took to his bunk with a bottle of whisky remarking 'as the pilot is aboard I've nothing more to do wi' it' Captain Kevan eventually went on to other owners and died when spontanous combustion set in a coal cargo and in the best tradition went down with the ship.
Without going on too long.. an elderly captain died on route but his body was perfectly preserved for the return in the guano cargo.

Thanks,

Mike


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## gdynia (Nov 3, 2005)

Mike
Please find abit of info and a webpage to look at

Saint Line Ltd. Had its origins with Pollok, Gilmour & Co. of 1804 with their shipping interests in 1861 being placed under Rankin, Gilmour & Co. using a "Saint" nomenclature and operating as the British & Foreign S.S. Co. Ltd. which was replaced in 1919 by the Saint Line Ltd. which continued to operate after Rankin, Gilmour ceased c.1929-1930 shifting from Liverpool to London in 1934 and shortly afterwards coming under Mitchell Cotts & Co. Ltd. [or Mitchell, Cotts & Co. Ltd. as sources differ as to whether "Mitchell" was a 1st or surname] though it is not clear whether this was as owners as well as operators.

http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/mlemen/mlemen075.htm


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

Thanks Gdynia,

When I worked for Shell I recall that Mitchell Cotts & Co were their shipping agents for South African ports though I don't know much more than that. Certainly it's a route for research as I remember seeing the MC houseflag in one of my ships research papers.

Mike


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## gdynia (Nov 3, 2005)

Mike
Heres a link to MC

http://www.grincor.co.za/companies_content.aspx?id=6


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

*Another P&G Captain:*

As written about Captain Watson:

"There was Captain Watson, insignificant of appearance but intrepid, who, when his ship the Illustrious had sprung a leak of the Cape, rather than take her to Capetown (which would have been about as disastrous as a total loss as his vessel was uninsured), decided to bring her home - and did so. Once the men lost heart; they would not pump any longer. Captain Watson ordered the pump handles to be brought aft, lit a cigar, then told the crew they would have to be civil in asking for them if they wanted them. As the water increased in the hold they were not long in begging for them!
Later in the voyage when in close proximity to another ship the crew wanted to take to the boats, Watson and his officers were there before them with crow-bars threatening to knock a hole in each boat if they carried the matter further. The crew were eventually paid off with an honorarium of two months extra pay all round. It ends up by quoting 'I may say all the trouble to the Illustrious had arisen from a defective butt, scamped in the caulking'
Never a dull moment..

Mike


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## Ian (Mar 27, 2004)

Defective butt scamped in the caulking? Really! what were they doing? Cheers Jock.


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

jock paul said:


> Defective butt scamped in the caulking? Really! what were they doing? Cheers Jock.


I honestly don't know, I was hoping someone here might explain. My guess is caulking (sealing) the butt ends of timber was done in a poor way (scamped) i.e. sealing the cut ends was not done properly so water seeps into the end grain of the wood.
Any other ideas please?

Mike


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## K urgess (Aug 14, 2006)

Mike
Could it possibly be a misreading or a mispelling of "scrimped" as in "scrimped and saved"?


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

Marconi Sahib said:


> Mike
> Could it possibly be a misreading or a mispelling of "scrimped" as in "scrimped and saved"?


Thanks Kris, I've just looked up 'scamped' in dictionary.com and it means
'to perform in a careless superficial way' so it could well be right, though I've never heard the term before though it was in the 1800's so I guess descriptions/word usage change.

Mike


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

*History of Pollok, Gilmour & Co*

Some quotes from the history of Pollok, Gilmour & Co written by John Rankin regarding their ships:

'From 1838 to 1844 shipowning was anything but a profitable business, in spite of certain Acts which had been previously passed in it's favour. Things culminated in 1843 in dire stagnation, utter absence of freights, sailors in extreme want and shipowners going bankrupt.

In the main the captains in those days were thifty men; it was a bad lookout for them if they were not, for their wages were very low. What was a fair wage in 1830 was not so in 1860 and had not, I think, been altered in the interim.

The rigours of the Altantic Trade made them good sailors and strenuous men; even those addicted to drink had in the most part a strong sense of duty- albeit on a code of their own.'


_It reaffirms to me the dedication of those seafaring men who daily risked life and limb for low wages in poor conditions. What a contrast to the comfort of the ships of today...would they have thought of us as soft I wonder?_

Mike


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## drumg (Oct 13, 2011)

*Pollock Gilmour*

Hi, Is there a list available of crew members on the Pollock and Gilmour ships that transported timber? This is a family history related question,looking for family members who may have crewed to get across to Canada. Thanks, MG


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## David McVeigh (Mar 27, 2012)

*To MikeG*

We recently had a painting of a vessel called Saint Margaret donated to us. The painter is a well renowned local artist called Dante Lynas (long deceased). The painting owner bought the painting directly from the painter in the 1960s. He said the vessel was used to transfer steel from Glasgow port (Colvilles Steel works in Glasgow) to H&W in Belfast, including the steel for the Olympic Class vessels (Olympic, Titanic and Britannic). I checked our register and we did not build a Saint Margaret, but we did build Saint Pancras and Saint Fillians for Rankin, Gilmour and & Co. According to your informative post below, Saint Margaret may also have been a Rankin, Gilmour and & Co vessel. I have uploaded a photograph of the painting for your information (my first post, so I hope it worked). Do you have any additional information on Saint Margaret?
Regards
David


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

Hi David,

That is a fine picture of the _St. Margaret_.

I'm presently going through my files and have already found two interesting records:

Specifications: _St. Margaret_ (1877) 1,428 tons 233.1 x 37.3 x 22.5 & built by Thomas Royden & Sons, Liverpool

The iron sailing ship _St. Margaret_ belonging to Rankin, Gilmour & Co. was purchased a short time before her loss by Johann Orth an Austrian ex Archduke a member of the Austrian royal family. Having been relieved of his honorary rank of Field Marshal in the Austrian Army the Archduke occupied his time studying navigation finally obtaining a master mariners certificate in the Austrian mercantile marine. He was 37 years of age and in love with Milli Stubel an Austrian actress of good family. His request to marry her was refused by the Emperor whereupon he renounced his title and took the name Johann Orth from his castle of Orth, married Fraulein Milli Stubel & went to England. He then bought the _St. Margaret _ transferred her to Austrian Crew & engaged a Dalmatian crew. Financially he did not prosper as shippers were loth to entrust goods to such an inexperienced captain. He did however get a cargo for La Plata which left London on March 26th 1890. On July 12th 1890 Johann Orth & his wife left Ensenada on the _St Margaret_ on its last voyage. The ship was spoken by the Hamburg Barque _Maria Mercedes_ on the 31st, soon after was a terrific hurricane and the Austrian ship vanished. The Emperor Francis Joseph sent a cruiser to search South American waters, she returned after some months having found no trace of the _St Margaret_.

"Another cyclone adventure was that of the _St. Margaret_ in March 1884 at the foot of the Bay of Bengal. In the middle of the night the dismasted ship _Duchess of Edinburgh_ nearly drifted on top of her: shortly afterwards she sighted the Terpsichore with bulwarks gone, and in the morning she ran through the wreckage of the _Cassiopea_.
The _St. Margaret_ as sold to John Orth, really the Archduke Salvidore of Austria, the heir presumptive to the throne, who sailed her. After leaving Rio de Janeiro she was never heard of, but whether the Archduke was with her is very problematical. One thing for sure, he wished to lose his identity." 



Two differing accounts I'm afraid. I'll continue my searches...

Regards,


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

drumg said:


> Hi, Is there a list available of crew members on the Pollock and Gilmour ships that transported timber? This is a family history related question,looking for family members who may have crewed to get across to Canada. Thanks, MG


Hi DrumG, My apologies, I missed your post on this thread. I don't know of any crew lists in existence relating to Pollock & Gilmour ships. Hopefully a marine archive may have retained such information, I'll post if I locate any.

Mike


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## David McVeigh (Mar 27, 2012)

*Thanks MikeG*

Mike
Many thanks for the information. I'm the Sales Manager for Harland and Wolff in Belfast and while most of our work is oil, gas and offshore renewables related, I'm still an enthusiast for the marine world. 
The information you provided does not tie in with the information provided by the gentleman who donated the painting. He claimed the vessel was used to transfer steel from Glasgow to Belfast during the time of Olympic / Titanic, i.e. between 1908 and 1912 (see attached ship register). However, it is not unusual for people to claim lots of things related to Titanic.
The donation was a lovely gesture so I would like to verify his story but is looking less and less likely.
Thanks,
David


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## mikeg (Aug 24, 2006)

David,

My information was derived from separate sources one of which was penned by John Rankin, the other a shipping list. Such information could be correlated against Austrian history. From the references to the St. Margaret I've seen over the years I have found no reason to doubt the claim thus far.

This link notes the _St. Margaret_ http://home.clara.net/ronsmith/liverpool/ships/ships_s.htm 
I do note that with all the saint names of Rankin Gilmour they use St. instead of 'Saint' - maybe your painting is another Saint Margaret as it seems quite a popular name. That said the description i.e masts, apparent dimensions, date of iron sailing ships with RG do appear to tie up. Its an enigma..


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## mroyden (Feb 13, 2012)

Hello David,
The painting is not the St Margaret built by Thomas Royden & Sons as that was a fully rigged iron sailing ship. (I have written a full account of the vessel and her relationship with John Orth for my book The Family and Shipyard of Thomas Royden & Sons, Liverpool, forthcoming) - Mikeg is correct on this.

Mike Royden


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## Barbara Gilmour Boyd (Jan 22, 2017)

*Ships built by Allan Gilmour, Jr.*

I am a descendant of the Gilmours researching a book on the family and looking for information on ships built by Allan Gilmour, Jr. in St. John, New Brunswick, Miramichi, New Brunswick, and Wolfe's Cove and/or Levi, Quebec. I have Rankin's book, "A History of our Firm" and all the ship names, including the Saints. But there is scant information as to when and where they were launched or their tonnage. 
At the suggestion of one of the members, I also obtained a copy of "Saint John Ships and Their Builders," but again there is little information on specific Pollok and Gilmour ships. 
If anyone can help me, or point me to other sources, I'd be very appreciative.
Barbara


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## mroyden (Feb 13, 2012)

Hi Barbara,
I can help with Royden-built ships for Rankin Gilmour of Liverpool, but not Allan Gilmour I'm afraid.
Regards
Mike Royden


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## Barbara Gilmour Boyd (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi Mike
Thank you. I will contact you when I get a little further on the history.
Barbara


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