# Lithgows Ltd - Port Glasgow



## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

Hello!
Ok, this is not a ship, but a shipbuilder!

Anyone knows if still exist (and where is it!) an archive about ships built by Lithgows Ltd - Port Glasgow? Any idea of who succeded at this company?
Thaks
Marco


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## Jim S (Jan 21, 2006)

Lithgow's no longer exists in any form. In 1969 Lithgow merged with Scotts Shipbuilding & Engineering to form Scott-Lithgow Ltd.
Scott-Lithgow were absorbed into British Shipbuilders in 1977 which only hastened the company's demise as it seemed what orders for political expediency were seemed to be diverted away from Scott-Lithgow. The last work done by the yard was the self propelled semi-submersible drilling rig Ocean Alliance in 1987.
Lithgow's originally had two yards in Port Glasgow. The East Yard and the Kingston Yard with Wm Hamilton between them.
Port Glasgow is located on the lower reaches of the River Clyde adjacent to the town of Greenock.


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

Thank you Jim,
do you think that Lithgow's old archive with ship plans and technical sheets is completely gone?


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Lithgow's - -
Early 1960s I wrote to Lithgow's.addressed to Office Manager..
I complimented them on building sturdy ships and wrote I had sailed in two of them - CAPE HOWE maiden voyage 1943 and FREECREST ex EMPIRE AUSTEN in 1951..In a SAE I asked if I could obtain a photo of the ships taken when new..
After three weeks and no acknowledgement I wrote again and included a £3 Postal Order thinking that money would bring results..
Needless to say I heard no more..There's one born every minute!!
I later realised that addressing it to Officer Manager was an error..
I am still looking for a wartime photo of CAPE HOWE - she was equipped with torpedo protection nets..
Stan


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## vicbitter57 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi Stan,
Can't find a wartime photo but here's on of her.

http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=18301

I think the net device was called an "AND" (Admiralty Net Defences) or something similar, one of my old mans ships was Fort Venango, fitted with AND. Also an interesting site on the 1st Cape Howe at

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/merchantnavy6.html

All the best, VB


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Hi VB,
Thankyou for the links. Of the photo of CAPE HOWE 2 which I sailed in,I have that photo taken in Capetown...When built her funnel was smaller..
Years ago I saw a ship in Hamburg which I recognised as a 'Fort' boat.She had a German ensign and her name was AUGUST THYSSEN..
I found she was built as FORT VENANGO..
Regards - Stan


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## Bruce Carson (Jun 14, 2005)

Wikipedia has a time line of Lithgows that may be of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithgows
There is an existing Company claiming the heritage of the original shipbuilder, but I'm not sure how legitimate that assertion might be:
http://www.lithgows.co.uk/
Archives of the Company are held by Glasgow University as listed here:
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/collects/catalog/gd/gd320.html


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

Thank you Bruce!
That's perfect!


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## Jim MacIntyre (Mar 11, 2006)

Marcus 
I think you will find that Glasgow University Archives have a lot of do***ents from Lithgows but if you are looking for ship plans they went to National Maritime Museum.


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

Jim MacIntyre said:


> Marcus
> I think you will find that Glasgow University Archives have a lot of do***ents from Lithgows but if you are looking for ship plans they went to National Maritime Museum.


Thank you Jim,
do you know if National Maritime Museum gives these plans? How can I obtain them?


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

marcus said:


> Thank you Jim,
> do you know if National Maritime Museum gives these plans? How can I obtain them?




Mmmh I've found how to do! Quite expensive, unfortunately!
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/nav.3237

Other ways?
Marcus


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## Jim MacIntyre (Mar 11, 2006)

Marcus 
Yes NMM is expensive... Other ways ? Depends on what you are seeking. 
Are you looking for a specific ship ? In many cases British shipowners would build several ships in one 'class' at various shipyards. If you are after a particular ship, first find out if there were any sisterships and where they were built. If this is the case you might be able to obtain similar ship plans through other museums such as Tyne and Wear or Wirral. You'll still have to pay, but maybe not as much. 
I was very fortunate in a couple of instances. Shell built their tankers all over the place depending on the flag and I found that Nederlands Sheepvaart Museum retains a lot of plans from the Dutch shipyards. They were very helpful and provided a couple of sets of plans free. 
One definite requirement though is patience. It does take time.
Good luck 
Jim Mac


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## Bill Davies (Sep 5, 2007)

Does the name Ross Belch ring any bells with the Ship Building fraternity??


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

Bill Davies said:


> Does the name Ross Belch ring any bells with the Ship Building fraternity??


do you mean the Managing Director of Scott Lithgow ??


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

> Are you looking for a specific ship ? In many cases British shipowners would build several ships in one 'class' at various shipyards. If you are after a particular ship, first find out if there were any sisterships and where they were built.


All her sisterships were built by Lithgows! The shipowner was the Lyle shipping Co. (Cape York Motorship Co.)...


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## Jim MacIntyre (Mar 11, 2006)

Marcus 
I think you may be stuck with NMM. Lloyds register does provide some very useful 'Infosheets' on sources for research. Namely #1, #9 and #10 but I think that is going to lead you back to NMM. 
Cheers 
Jim Mac


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## Bill Davies (Sep 5, 2007)

Marcus,
Yes, I believe he was. Passed away about 5/6 years ago. Lived in Greenock.
I knew him quite well and found him a thoroughly nice person.

Brgds

Bill


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

But what ship are you looking for & what year was it built? 
There are a number of alternatives to the NMM as plans sources, but it is very sad that so many plans have fallen into the hands of the NMM. If their aim is to surpress our maritime heritage, they are doing a fine job with their excessive charges!


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## John Cassels (Sep 29, 2005)

Bill , the name Ross Belch rings distant bells but not sure exactly where .
Was he not , at one time , on the board of directors at Denholm ?.


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## Chris Woods (Nov 23, 2006)

*'CAPE CLEAR' Lithgows Ltd. 1939-44*

Can anyone tell me anything about this ship built by Lithgows Ltd. in 1939 and sunk in collision in 1944?

I understand she was owned by Lyle Shipping about which I can find no information.

Her official number may have been 165968

Any history, photograph, or dimensions for the 'CAPE CLEAR' , or suggestions for further research, will be much appreciated,
Chris


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## Bill Davies (Sep 5, 2007)

John,

Ross was indeed on the Board of Denholms and also Jebsens. I think his relationship with Jebsens went back to Ross's relationship with Atle Jebsens father. 

Brgds
Bill


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## tacho (Oct 13, 2007)

Ross Belch does not enjoy universal admiration amongst the marine cognoscenti.


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## Bill Davies (Sep 5, 2007)

Tacho,

I have heard that from some quarters and I could detect another side. However, I can only speak how I found him.

Brgds

Bill


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

As Chris Wood wrote, I'm searching infos and photos fo Mv "Cape Clear" built in 1939 by Lithgows and sank in 1944 after a collision with the "Henry Dearborne" near the Gulf of Suez...
Thanks to everybody!


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

You can find details of CAPE CLEAR by looking in
www.miramarshipindex.org.nz 

CAPE CLEAR
Built 1939 Lithgows 5,085 gross 447ft 5in long 56ft 2 in wide 24 ft 1in deep.
10.5 knots.

Sunk in collision with HENRY DEARBORN (US) 28 21N 33 11E whilst en-route Basra to Hampton Roads All saved.

Looks like sister ship to CAPE HAWKE (1941 to 1963) Split accommodation.
Find picture of CAPE HAWKE in www.photoship.co.uk 

Photographs in HISTORY OF LYLE SHIPPING COMPANY LIMITED

Bob


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

Shipbuilder said:


> Sunk in collision with HENRY DEARBORN (US) 28 21N 33 11E whilst en-route Basra to Hampton Roads All saved.



Thanks Bob,
I'm particularly interested in this collision... where I can find more details? At National Archives? Other Archives or sites?

Bye
Marco


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Hi Marco,
I don't really know, I suppose wartime collisions were simply do***ented without any more details than casualty numbers. Probably the best hope would be to find someone who sailed in the ship or was related to them. I would think you have as good a chance here on Ships Nostalgia as anywhere else. As it hapenned 63 years ago, there are probably some survivors left somewhere although they will probably be in their 80s by now.
Bob


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

Naval Maritime Museum wrote me that they have plans of Cape Clear and her sistership Cape Howke...
I'm waiting to know how much it will be!
Any suggestion about collision reports during WWII?
I think that something had to be written, in order to let the assurance pay for damages or losses!
Thanks


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## Bruce Carson (Jun 14, 2005)

Marcus, please keep us up to date on your progress.
I think many of our members would be interested to know what the Museum charges for plans.

Bruce


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## JimC (Nov 8, 2007)

Bill Davies said:


> Does the name Ross Belch ring any bells with the Ship Building fraternity??


Yes Bill,

If I rememebr correctly, Ros Belch was general Manager of Lower Clyde Shipbuilders in the 1960s bvut I'm not too sure.

Jim C.


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## JimC (Nov 8, 2007)

marcus said:


> Hello!
> Ok, this is not a ship, but a shipbuilder!
> 
> Anyone knows if still exist (and where is it!) an archive about ships built by Lithgows Ltd - Port Glasgow? Any idea of who succeded at this company?
> ...


Hello Marco!

It's a long shot but you might try writing to Sir William Lithgow at 'Ormsary House', Ormsary, Argyll, Scotland. The Lithgow family operate a very successful Aqua Culture business from there. I know for a fact that the forecastle bell of the 'Ormsay' - my first ship -is still there. It is just possible that there might be a mine of information to be had for the asking.

Jim C.


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

> Bruce Carson
> 
> Marcus, please keep us up to date on your progress.
> I think many of our members would be interested to know what the Museum charges for plans.
> ...


The bill! 114 Pounds for 5 papers (shipping and research fees included)..
If you want something.....You have to pay for it! (or not?)


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## Jim MacIntyre (Mar 11, 2006)

Marcus 
NMM Plans - OUCH !!!! That hurts.. We tried to prepare you for the shock. 
Thought about looking at this from 'Henry Dearborn' (U.S.) perspective but too much 'chatter' in the search. However one web site on WWII US Archives mentioned that back in 1974 the Maritime Administration decided to destroy all records of Deck logs from WWII as being 'of little or no research value'..
No doubt the person responsible for the decision is now in a high government position somewhere.... 
Also found an Egyptian tourist site on wreck diving - their comment on the Cape Clear was 'due to government restrictions in effect at the time little is known about this wreck' 
So, my friend, looks like you have a difficult (and expensive) project but if there is an answer SN is the place to find it. 
Good luck 
Jim Mac


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## Bruce Carson (Jun 14, 2005)

OUCH, indeed !!

Bruce


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Once again, the NMM has shown its dedication to surpressing our maritime hertitage. I wonder if any of them ever read this forum & if so, why do they never comment!

Even if you buy the plans, they will expect ypou to sign a form saying that you will never lend them or show them to anyyone, or reduce or enlarge them. And - if you have the audacity to want to build a model to sell, please let them know so that they can charge you extra!

I believe that all the plans (and photographs) that they hold or were given to them in good faith, that they were to be made available at reasonable cost to anyone interested in researching them - what a betrayal!

I have made sure that none of my vast collection of plans will NEVER fall into their hands!

Sorry I couldn't help with the CAPE CLEAR.


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## Jim MacIntyre (Mar 11, 2006)

Bob 
I have paid the price and signed the forms for the NMM material on various occasions. I'm not trying to defend their position or their prices but on the positive side at least the material they have is still in existence, unlike the TWIT in the USA who decided all WWII deck logs should be destroyed because they had no research value. 
Wonder how many other TWITS around the world have reached similar decisions and how much allegedly valueless material ended in the tip....

I'm just very glad this group took timely positive action on the Allen Collection and I'm honoured to be in the same company of the people who took time to do it. 
cheers 
Jim Mac


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## tacho (Oct 13, 2007)

On a visit to the NMM at Greenwich I noticed that the replica of the James Caird (the boat used by Shackleton to sail from Elephant Island to South Georgia in 1916) was though in other respects authentic looking largely held together with cross head screws. _I can just see chippy McNish hauling out his Black and Decker to modify the boat for the voyage_. On the Monday after the visit I rang up the museum to tell them and got the impression that they weren't interested. Would be interested to know if the crosshead screws have been replaced.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Looking at it all with purely selfish reasons, I would prefer that the plans were destroyed rather than know they were still in existance, but only at exhorbitant cost! Fortunately, a large amount of the plans held prisoner at NMM, Greenwich, are available from other places that are not so GREEDY.
My own collection is immense (but nowhere near on the scale of NMM). But I have made it clear on my demise, that all my original material (hundreds & hundreds of negatives etc) is released of copyright when I go. So that even if (heaven forbid) that the NMM get hold of some of them, they cannot claim copyright - they will be open to all! 

Even whilst I am still, "on deck" I would never consider "ripping off" genuine researchers! 

Best wishes
Bob


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Whilst I am still in a "militant" mood, I cannot help but agreeing with TACHO. I don't think the NMM would be particularly interested when he mentioned the cross-head screws in JAMES CAIRD. Although normal screws are still available, they will not be sufficiently interested to change them in order for accuracy. I have the greatest regard for Mr. McNish, a man of undeniable skill because of his modifications to the JAMES CAIRD if nothing else.. I believe that he was denied the expedition medal simply because he had the audacity to argue with "the boss" after the ENDURANCE had gone. I cannot help thinking that this was because of a justified resentment because of Shackleton's order to shoot Mr. McNish's tomcat (Mrs. Chippy) after the ship was lost. I have heard that on the voyage south, Mrs. Chippy fell overboard & that Captain Worsley stopped the ship to pick her up, thereby displaying more than a bit of humanity even if the decision to risk men's lives was not really justified for a cat (we are only human, after all!)

If I were Shackleton, I would have said to Mr. McNish, "The cat is your responsibility & any food she eats will have to be from you own ration!" I have a distinct feeling that the majority, if not all, of the crew, would have helped and the end result would have been that Shackleton could have said "I never lost a man - not even the ship's cat!"

Ten out of ten for Worsely & McNish, nine out of ten for Shackleton!

PS
I have the highest regard for Shackleton & his achievements, But the cat/McNish issue is the only one that I would fault him for!

Regards
Bob


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## Jim MacIntyre (Mar 11, 2006)

Bob
Can't quite reconcile the 'destruction'. I see your point to a point, but once do***ents are gone they are gone. destruction is final. If they are still existing even in the hands of people wishing to profit from their posession, we can always hope that those cir***stances could change and the material is made public. In this case - dream on.... but.
I've been told on several occasions 'never donate anything to a museum', either charge for it or retain the rights to it, that way it doesn't end up in a dusty damp store room until it disintegrates. 
Personally if I had anything of (nautical) value to share with the world I would bring it to SN (as with the Allen Collection). With the obvious scope and value of your own research material SN might be the right vehicle to give NMM a poke in the eye... 
Anyway enough talk of demise and destruction.... I just hope Marcus can find a solution to his dilemma without wasting the kids inheritance on NMM. 
Cheers 
Jim Mac


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## marcus (Nov 27, 2007)

Dear friends
you have this strong passion as me, so you can understand that for me it's important to finish my research... Unfortunately in this case the only way I've found is to pay quite a lot to get what I'm looking for.
I think that who lives in UK or in USA is still lucky... In Italy we don't have these kind of archives and the few we have are dramatically left at their own destiny. Ridiculous pubblic founds, Few material, hard to find and to get.
I live in Rome, and I can go at the Italian Navy Historical office for ships involved in tragica war events. I don't know many other places where to search! 
So I think that, at the end, is better to have expensive services than nothing at all!
It's obvious that this policy helps only the "professional" researchers to the detriment of those who do this only for their passion..
I'll keep on searching for other material (so please let me know if you find something!!) and, at the end I'll buy these plans.
Excuse me for this monologue and for my bad english!
Marco


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## 3rd engineer (Sep 3, 2008)

Bill Davies said:


> Does the name Ross Belch ring any bells with the Ship Building fraternity??


yes he was fabrication manager wat a bugger of a man alan


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## McCloggie (Apr 19, 2008)

Ross Belch certainly rings a bell with me. I think we worked with him on a couple of jobs when I worked for my old man's consultancy firm. 

He might have had something to do with the yard in Methil.

I will make a couple of calls home and come back on this one. I do however think that he has "passed over the bar".
McC


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## jimmys (Jan 5, 2007)

*Lithgows*

Sir Ross Belch CBE. FRSE. died around 26/3/99. I am not sure if this Ross Belch is the same person discussed in this forum. Sir Ross Belch was a director of Lithgows.

regards
jimmys


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## Gulpers (Sep 8, 2005)

Indeed, as *jimmys* has stated, I can confirm that the late Sir Ross Belch was Managing Director of Scott Lithgow.


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## japottinger (Jun 16, 2004)

I am pretty sure some of Lithgows plans were saved by the Ballast Trust based at Lochwinnoch. Not sure who looks after it now as Dr Wm. Lind died a short time ago.


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## Takakjian (Mar 19, 2008)

Merchant Fleets 1939 by Roger Jordan lists the Cape Clear as owned by the Cape York Motorship Company part of the Lyle Shipping LTD.
Motorship built at Lithgows 1939, 5085 gross tons, 8850 deadweight tons, 447.6' loa, 56.2' beam, 24'10" draft, service speed 10.5 knots. Loss info is the same as Mirimar.
Dictionary of disasters at sea in the age of steam, Hocking lists pretty much the same with the addition of Diesel engine of 599 nominal horsepower.

Cheers 
Eric


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## Jim MacIntyre (Mar 11, 2006)

*Lithgows Plans*



japottinger said:


> I am pretty sure some of Lithgows plans were saved by the Ballast Trust based at Lochwinnoch. Not sure who looks after it now as Dr Wm. Lind died a short time ago.


James 
You may recall in my search for 'Loch Seaforth' plans you directed me to the Ballast Trust. They didn't have them but the letter was signed by Mr Duncan R Winning. He suggested a couple of other leads which unfortunately petered out.
BTW I'm probably going to try to modify your Lochiel plans for the Seaforth. The return address was : 
The Ballast Trust
Monarch Works
18/20 Walkinshaw Street 
Johnstone PA5 8AB


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## stores (Apr 8, 2007)

hi, i recently aquired some builders photographs of WW2 watts watts ships built by caledon of dundee from dundee city council, they do plans as well, mine were emailed to me free of charge, GREENWICH MUSEUM want £20 for a 7x5 photo, liverpool charge £5 , what a difference,


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## stores (Apr 8, 2007)

regarding greenwich maritime museum and there crazy photo prices, most were given to them and they seem to make sure no one else gets to see them by overpricing them, have written and complained many times, but they dont want to know, likewise they were given the steam paddle tug ss reliance for safekeeping and the nations enjoyment, what did they do ? cut it up , all done very quietly till it was too late to do anything, hope they never get hms victory, they are a disgrace to great britains maritime past, HEARD A RUMOUR THE GREEKS ARE GOING TO RESTORE A LIBERTY SHIP, WHAT DID WE SAVE FROM WW2, ? STORES.


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## slgray1944 (Jun 1, 2014)

*Lyle Shipping Co, Glasgow, Fleet List*

A page that might help:
http://mariners-list.com/site_pages...&category=Scottish&page_name=Lyle+Shipping+Co


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