# How dumb can you get?



## Gulpers

Skipper jailed for insurance fraud. 

Have a look at how he was rumbled! (==D) 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6196960.stm


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## Pat McCardle

Obviously the wrong God hey?


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## Mad Landsman

But I bet he feels much better for getting it off his chest, (or not?)


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## hasse neren

Mayby this twelve years in secret, was for him twelve years of personal hell? (Sad)


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## william dillon

Gulpers said:


> Skipper jailed for insurance fraud.
> 
> Have a look at how he was rumbled! (==D)
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6196960.stm


Ray,

The surname "Wiseman" seems to be a bit of a misnomer does it not ?, keep yer Gub shut & stay rich comes to mind in this case...........:sweat: 
Either that or jail the "Git" for what he has done !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I realise that it will be several weeks before you reply to this Ray, you are obviouslly very busy watching our coast and defending the nation, He , He [=P] [=P]


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## Gulpers

hasse neren said:


> Mayby this twelve years in secret, was for him twelve years of personal hell? (Sad)


He should have thought about that before he scuttled his craft! (MAD)


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## Gulpers

william dillon said:


> Ray,
> 
> The surname "Wiseman" seems to be a bit of a misnomer does it not ?, keep yer Gub shut & stay rich comes to mind in this case...........:sweat:
> Either that or jail the "Git" for what he has done !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
> I realise that it will be several weeks before you reply to this Ray, you are obviouslly very busy watching our coast and defending the nation, He , He [=P] [=P]


Billy,

This type of fraud is becoming increasingly more common. Before paying up nowadays, insurance companies investigate all sinkings *very thoroughly*! 

Off duty now Billy and celebrating a belated St Andrew's Day! (Pint)


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## william dillon

Gulpers said:


> Billy,
> 
> This type of fraud is becoming increasingly more common. Before paying up nowadays, insurance companies investigate all sinkings *very thoroughly*!
> 
> Off duty now Billy and celebrating a belated St Andrew's Day! (Pint)


(Thumb) All the best Ray, enjoy your belated celebrations...(Thumb) (Pint)


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## OAK LEAF

Gulpers, very easy to criticise someone when they are down, at least Francis Wiseman had the "balls" to confess, and is now paying the penalty. There are at least 5 men alive today, who are glad of his bravery.As you like quoting press comments try this one 
http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.u...tentPK=16085947&folderPk=85696&pNodeId=149221


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## jim barnes

i have quite a few confesions to make but i think i shall wait till i have a personal meeting with my maker.???


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## hasse neren

OAK LEAF said:


> Gulpers, very easy to criticise someone when they are down, at least Francis Wiseman had the "balls" to confess, and is now paying the penalty. There are at least 5 men alive today, who are glad of his bravery.As you like quoting press comments try this one
> http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.u...tentPK=16085947&folderPk=85696&pNodeId=149221


THANK´S OAK LEAF FOR THIS WORDS, I AGREE WITH YOU. I´M SELF BEEN IN LOTS OF TROUBLE IN MY DAYS BUT I´S OK NOW, AND I NEVER JUDGE ANYBODY. WE ALL HAVE OUR LIFE STORY, AND VALUE.


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## Gulpers

OAK LEAF said:


> Gulpers, very easy to criticise someone when they are down, at least Francis Wiseman had the "balls" to confess, and is now paying the penalty. There are at least 5 men alive today, who are glad of his bravery.As you like quoting press comments try this one
> http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.u...tentPK=16085947&folderPk=85696&pNodeId=149221


Oak Leaf,

Thanks for your comment.

The original post was meant to point out the irony of how Mr Wiseman was exposed to the authorities. That was obviously missed!

The press comment in the P&J link certainly points out how the mighty fall and it is comforting to read that, in the past, Mr Wiseman responded as required by the Master/Skipper of any vessel when another is in distress. [As defined in The United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and The Safety of Life at Sea Convention (SOLAS)]


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## allan besant

Well said Oak LEAF. Regards------------- Allan.


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## Gavin Gait

The problem was at the time he scuttled the seaward quest he was drinking a bottle of whisky a day , even at sea. This means that he was in no fit state to be in command a rowing boat let alone a trawler with 5 other men onboard.

I have been at sea in flat calm weather when 5 men lost their lives ( Westhaven AH190 on March 10th 1997 ) and it certainally wasn't flat calm when he scuttled his trawler. The dangers of life being lost to this stupidity was there and very very real. Some people try to justify sinkings like this by saying that people in debt will set fire to their car or push it into a river to claim the insurance , just that sinking a boat is on a bigger scale , I disagree totally. I agree that this sort of thing has been happening far too often over the years and I am as certain as I can be that lives have been put in serious peril at least just so a skipper can think he can pay off his debt. How would anyone feel if during the sinking of the seaward quest by Mr Wiseman a man had lost their life or even been seriously injured??

All Francis Wiseman had to do was put the boat up for sale and admit he couldn't make her pay. Now he's in prison and I know for a fact that there are many skippers worried that thats where they will be going if they are found out.

Davie


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## hasse neren

I think that the main problem with Mr. Wiseman is that he is an alcoholic, and have been that for many years
Regards Hasse.


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## Trawldoor

Davie,

I hope we are not going to fa' oot but here goes... Easy to be sanctimonious Davie eh? Wiseman was not the only mannie at the sea who taen a boat drinkin' like that...You could mak a list as well as me, especially oot o' Aiberdeen, Mentioning the Westhaven is total bulls8it. I am not gonna disrespect a friend of mine who was lost on here but you are talking through it pal...no comparison to what happened there and I am not referring to whether it was an accident or not either. The weather was (almost) irrelevent. I KNOW cos I spent the day on the case and with the later stuff...I can prove that in private, (not on here) anytime you want.

I do not think Wiseman was right to do what he did. I would not have done it sitting here tonight or when I was at the sea... Would I have done it in debt with a drink problem??....Don't know but maybe, drink changes fowkies. DO you know Davie?? I don't know the whole story but it seems to me that somebody in a bad place made a doss decision. He then got sorted and couldna live we hissel'. He trusted another do gooder who dobbed him in...why?? Duty to God or his insurance company??Let that flee stick to the wa' eh?? Fine, so justice wis served eh, or was it?? Well, tell ye what..I'll awa oot an mug some aal wife . or batter some incomer tae deeth the night...bet I get less than he did!!! What use in jilin' him eh?? Better mak him pint fences,dae aal fowks gairdens or such. Would mak a better punishment.

Aye, it's gye easy to judge but it's no so easy to dispense justice.....

With respect

John S


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## Gavin Gait

My point about the Westhaven was a simple one , good men can loose their lives at sea when they are sober and doing their normal jobs the fact that Mr Wiseman was on the bottle makes the dangers of what he did far far worse.

The Westhaven was less than 30nm to the East of the boat I was on when she sank , came fast on a pipeline and when they were trying to clear the gear she capsised. An accident that can happen at any time in the industry one of the dangers of the job. A danger that we all accepted when we went out for another trip and absolutely in no way was I implying anything other than that so if you feel I have I appologise John.

The man that "dobed" him in waited almost a year to do so , it was only after he saw that Mr Wiseman's finances were not improving that he went to the insurance company. I think that makes his "dobing in" of Mr Wiseman pretty 2 faced to be honest , why?? , well if he felt a duty to God then he would have done it immediately ( better to confess your sins , etc ) , had he felt a duty to the law of the land it should have been reported immediately and as a board member of the insuarance company involved they cannot be happy that he waited a year before telling them so he showed no loyalty to his paymasters either.

As for Aberdeen boats having a drink problem , yes the company boats did have a serious drink problem and a great many went ashore and lives were lost because of it. I think the biggest problem 12 years ago was that there was no "drink-command" limit in the way that there is now. Nowadays you can be arrested in a pleasure boat if your trying to go out and over the car drink-drive limit ( same for Fishermen too ).

As for what anyone would have done if they were an alcoholic , well if you've followed the case you'll know that Mr Wiseman told the court that his brother told him how to scuttle the boat and that it was "the only way". I have yet to hear if the brother will be charged with conspiracy or not. People do stupid things when they're under the influence of drink/drugs , BUT , if it is true that is what the brother said and did what he is alleged to have done then a large part of the blame must go to him too and he should have stood trial along with Mr Wiseman in my books. There has been no indication that the brother was an alcoholic or had been drinkng at the time of the sinking either.

The big problem I guess with the length of sentance is that everyone assumes its for the fraud. A part of the sentance is for the fraud , but , as far as I can make out at least half of the sentance is for the risk of injury or death he put his crew thru and for the deliberate sinking of a seaworthy vessel. 

What should the sentance have been?? Well I guess you have to take into consideration what happened , why it happened , the risks to life and limb , etc. If you are drink driving and crash a mini-bus with 5 passengers onboard , even if they are not njured , you can go to prison ( and quite often do go to prison ) altho not for the length of time that Mr Wiseman got. You can get 3+ years for serious fraud onshore too so I guess ts a combination of the two.

Do I think he got the sentance he deserved ?? Yes I do. The reason is simple , he had the option of selling the boat to pay off the debt without putting anyones life in any danger , he was encouraged by his Brother ( again if what he said in court is to be believed ) who should have stood trial with him and as this is the first time that this type of trial has been successfully prosectuted ( as far as I can find out that is ) then a message has to be sent out that scuttling a boat for the insurance money is unacceptable.

I feel that we would be better served if we just thought about what could have happened all too easily , what would have been said if the helicopter that was sent out had crashed for any reason and crew were killed? , what would have been said if any of Mr Wisemans crew had been seriously injured or killed ( should he be charged with murder if someone died , afterall the scuttling was planned and the risk to life is always there in the fishing industry ).

We accepted the dangers of the job sober everytime we sailed for another trip , we knew there was a chance we wouldn't be coming back alive yet we still went. Too many boats have been lost thru drink over the last 60 years , too many lives lost too , I guess what i'm saying is that the time has come for a stand to be taken to try and stamp out unnecessary sinking and deaths and if by sentencing Mr Wiseman to 32 months ( of which he'll serve no more than 16 ) we can stop even one man die-ing and one boat from being ran ashore or scuttled for the insurance then thats the price that has to be paid.

Don't worry about it John i'm nae about to faa-oot on ya , I know this is a subject that we can all get pretty hot under the collar about and we all tend to see things in black and white at times. I've just tried to put out all the arguments for and against and how I feel myself thats all.

Davie


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## Trawldoor

Davie,

Firstly, I am glad we have not faa'n oot... As you rightly say we all get hot under the collar sometimes. I was mostly teed off about the Westhaven example you gave. There are cir***stances surrounding this sad event that in my opinion made it a lousy example to chose. Let's just leave that one. As for the arguments you lay out so well in your latter note, I can say at least, they have made me think a bit more about the case and probably agree and understand more of your views than I did before. I must be honest and thought your first note was a bit sanctimonious so I am glad to hear your views in whole. You make a lot of sense.

On my part...'every day is a schoolday'...and I have learnt some stuff too. You are never too to learn auld eh?? I know you will agree with me when I say it is a sad state of affairs when our men consider sinking their boats is an option and you are correct when you say it has to be stamped out. Incidentally, rereading my note, I would clarify the point that I am totally against drink onboard boats...Too many boats and men were damaged, hurt or lost through it. It has no place at the sea.

Anyway, hope that puts us on an even keel as we seem overall to agree mair than disagree and that's no a bad thing.

Cheers

John


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## Gavin Gait

Thats a'right john I could only think of the Westhaven when I did my original post and if I had dug around I could ( and maybe should ) have used another example.

I've seen too many people get hurt , boats get lost thru drink over the years too and i'm glad the bond was stopped for the normal North Sea boats ( called some skippers extracating the urine by filling their garages up with bonded spirits/lager/**** and selling them on for a profit a few of them ended up in court about 10 years or so ago lol ).

I'm glad we understand each other min

A' the best

Davie


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## hasse neren

Great debate, Trawldoor and DavieTait.
Hasse.


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## Gulpers

Well said Hasse.(Thumb) 

John and Davie have done themselves, and the fishing community, proud with their excellent comments.

For a moment I was regretting starting this thread and thought it may have had to be "locked". 

However, I think that because of their input, the thread has developed into a real eye-opener for some members.

Well done gents and thank you! (Applause)


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## Peter4447

Gulpers said:


> Well said Hasse.(Thumb)
> 
> John and Davie have done themselves, and the fishing community, proud with their excellent comments.
> 
> For a moment I was regretting starting this thread and thought it may have had to be "locked".
> 
> However, I think that because of their input, the thread has developed into a real eye-opener for some members.
> 
> Well done gents and thank you! (Applause)



I must admit that I did have reservations about making any comments on this thread but as you so rightly said Gulpers "well done gents". Such a topic is of course incredibly difficult because none of us can understand the workings of the human mind and how it reacts in difficult and stressful situations and particularly when alocohol is involved. I was struck, however, with the similarity that I experienced some years ago when serving as a Prison Officer. We had several very "happy clappy" religious inmates in the Prison in which I was working, who suceeded in 'converting' another inmate who was only doing a short sentance. As a result of his conversion he very quickly admitted to committing a murder some years before and, sure enough, the police found a body to prove it, so he finished up doing a life sentance.
Peter4447(Thumb)


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## ally

Been reading this thread with intrest, excellent debate going on so think its about time i added my tuppence worth. Ok Frank made a huge mistake but do any of you know him ?? What he was going through at the time (in his personal life as well !! ) played a key roll on deciding to do this stupid thing.
Ok maybe its no excuse but when your life is down to zero its amazing what go's through your mind. Good on him for owning up to what he did, no he's paying for it so i hope he can get on with his life when he get's out.
As for drinking aboard boats, well guy's its not drink you have to worry about its drugs, if there was drug testing in the fishing industry i guarantee that over half the Scottish fleet would be tied to the wall because there crew and the skipper's in some cases faild the test !!!! I've seen it 1st hand on many boats and its twice as bad as drinking onboard. 
Frank ist the only one to sink his boat because of debt, i know a few thats done it but will mention no names !!! Think Davie will know of a few as well eh ??
It happens, if folk are prepared to take the risk they must be braver or stupider than i imagined.


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## hasse neren

ally said:


> Been reading this thread with intrest, excellent debate going on so think its about time i added my tuppence worth. Ok Frank made a huge mistake but do any of you know him ?? What he was going through at the time (in his personal life as well !! ) played a key roll on deciding to do this stupid thing.
> Ok maybe its no excuse but when your life is down to zero its amazing what go's through your mind. Good on him for owning up to what he did, no he's paying for it so i hope he can get on with his life when he get's out.
> As for drinking aboard boats, well guy's its not drink you have to worry about its drugs, if there was drug testing in the fishing industry i guarantee that over half the Scottish fleet would be tied to the wall because there crew and the skipper's in some cases faild the test !!!! I've seen it 1st hand on many boats and its twice as bad as drinking onboard.
> Frank ist the only one to sink his boat because of debt, i know a few thats done it but will mention no names !!! Think Davie will know of a few as well eh ??
> It happens, if folk are prepared to take the risk they must be braver or stupider than i imagined.


Mayby that´s the truth, why would it be different at sea then in the rest of the world. My point in this was that best not to djudge before we know the hole story. Geting closer to the person that is involved, often face a tragedy. I know, i seen it every day. But we may not forget all the brave sailors that sails and have sailed the oceans in honour.
This is for all of them.(Applause)


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## Gavin Gait

Yes Ally the biggest problem nowadays is definately the drugs that the crews take at sea. I know 100% one boat went ashore due to the young lad on watch conking out wae drugs , the boat went up the rocks at full speed and the laddie didnae even wake up !!!. They got the boat off eventually , all i'll say is its a good job she was steel !!! Ally you probably ken exactly fit boat i'm on about lol ( twa pursers and twa tugs jog the memory lol )

When I did a trip doing discards aboard with Fred West on the Castlewood ( pairing with the old Ryanwood ) they put a young lad ashore due to him being spaced out of his heid on LSD before we sailed. Meant we sailed short handed but being an ex-fisherman I took watch's and gutted and washed the fish once my own research work was done. I also helped shoot and haul the gear that trip.

Incidents that have happened in the past due to drink are now happening more and more due to drugs and Ally is right , if the Police did random drug testing of the crews of the boats 1/2 of the fleet wouldn't be allowed to start their engines again.

Sad state but a fact of life up here. The drugs only really became a problem when one very very stupid and misguided GP decided to go on the national press about the "drug problems and all the young men with hundreds of £££ spare cash to spend every weekend". The town was invaded by Manchester/Liverpool and Birmingham drugs gangs after that and from having a small heroin problem we've now got a serious Crack Cocaine , Cocaine , Heroin and Amphetamines problems in Fraserburgh , Peterhead , infact all of the fishing ports.

Everytime this idiot of a GP goes to the press the situation gets worse , I have given serious consideration to reporting him to the BMA and trying to get him struck off since his actions have caused far more drug overdose deaths and drug addicts than we would have had if he'd kept his flamming mouth shut !!!!

Davie


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## ally

Well said Davie, it really has to be seen to be belived the state of some of the lads i've worked we, unbeliveable is 1 word i'd use. I'll just give ye 1 example, before we hauled on this boat i watched this guy swallow 6 diamorphene pills before he went on deck, by the time we'd hauled and shot the gear again he was on a diffrent planet, standing tailing prawns was a joke as he couldnt tell the diffrence between a prawn and anything else that could move, and this happend EVERY haul !!!!! When he went on watch i used to sit in the mess deck and watch tv as there's no way i'd go below when he was up there himself, it came to the stage where enough was enough and i told the skipper what was going on, he turned a blind eye to it knowing if he sacked him he wouldnt get another crew member pluss the fact he took drugs at sea himself, well the gear came home with me after that trip, and that is just 1 experiance and there's pleanty more where that came from. So drink on boats is nothing compared to the drug problem.
Aye Davie i know what boat your on about, that's not the only 1 thats went ashore due to the man on watch lying unconscious with a needle still sticking in his arm !!!!! 
Its about time something was done about this problem or it is just going to get worse and worse.


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## Peter Dryden

"_Been reading this thread with intrest, excellent debate going on so think its about time i added my tuppence worth. Ok Frank made a huge mistake but do any of you know him ?? What he was going through at the time (in his personal life as well !! ) played a key roll on deciding to do this stupid thing.
Ok maybe its no excuse but when your life is down to zero its amazing what go's through your mind. Good on him for owning up to what he did, no he's paying for it so i hope he can get on with his life when he get's out."_

Well said Ally, anyone who has been in a similar situation, with their life spiraling out of control, seemingly plunging into a black hole, will have had the same desperate thoughts and carried out acts that, being in a stable mental condition they would not have given houseroom to.

Peter


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## hasse neren

Peter Dryden said:


> "_Been reading this thread with intrest, excellent debate going on so think its about time i added my tuppence worth. Ok Frank made a huge mistake but do any of you know him ?? What he was going through at the time (in his personal life as well !! ) played a key roll on deciding to do this stupid thing.
> Ok maybe its no excuse but when your life is down to zero its amazing what go's through your mind. Good on him for owning up to what he did, no he's paying for it so i hope he can get on with his life when he get's out."_
> 
> Well said Ally, anyone who has been in a similar situation, with their life spiraling out of control, seemingly plunging into a black hole, will have had the same desperate thoughts and carried out acts that, being in a stable mental condition they would not have given houseroom to.
> 
> Peter


(Thumb) Hasse.


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## Ian

If we need DRUGS we need help QUICKLY(Thumb)


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## Gavin Gait

I have no doubt that those with a drink/drugs dependancy need help and quickly. The problem I have with the people involved in sinking the Seaward Quest ( the Skipper Mr Wiseman and allegedly his Brother ) is that altho Mr Wiseman was ( and always will be even if he never drinks again , your never more than one drink away from going all the way back to full blown addiction ) an Alcoholic his brother wasn't ( or if he was then during the court case no mention of it came out to the public ) and it is alleged that the brother told the skipper how to scuttle the boat and actively encouraged/participated in the scuttling.

We can all feel sympathy for Mr Wiseman on a personal level due to his alcohol addiction , his marriage break down and his boat getting into debt. I cannot however forgive him or his brother for putting the lives of 4 other men at serious risk. He also put the lives of the rescue helicopter crew at risk as everytime they go out on a rescue there is always the risk of mechanical failure/bird strike/etc and it would have had to lead to manslaughter charges against both the skipper and his brother had anyone lost their lives over their greed.

Davie


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## hasse neren

Davie Tait said:


> I have no doubt that those with a drink/drugs dependancy need help and quickly. The problem I have with the people involved in sinking the Seaward Quest ( the Skipper Mr Wiseman and allegedly his Brother ) is that altho Mr Wiseman was ( and always will be even if he never drinks again , your never more than one drink away from going all the way back to full blown addiction ) an Alcoholic his brother wasn't ( or if he was then during the court case no mention of it came out to the public ) and it is alleged that the brother told the skipper how to scuttle the boat and actively encouraged/participated in the scuttling.
> 
> We can all feel sympathy for Mr Wiseman on a personal level due to his alcohol addiction , his marriage break down and his boat getting into debt. I cannot however forgive him or his brother for putting the lives of 4 other men at serious risk. He also put the lives of the rescue helicopter crew at risk as everytime they go out on a rescue there is always the risk of mechanical failure/bird strike/etc and it would have had to lead to manslaughter charges against both the skipper and his brother had anyone lost their lives over their greed.
> 
> Davie


 That is true Davie, one drink and your back again, i know i´m an alcoholic my self, but have been sober for many years now. That´s the reason i follow this debat and all your comments. When you are an alcoholic you are sick and need help. The best help is when people around you stops you in time, before it get out of hand. I belive many people aurond Mr Wiseman know he has problem, before he did what he did. I´m glad to hear that there are people out there that are courageous to try to stop the alco, and drug problem at sea. In my days at the 70´s when i was at sea, nobody did care about this problem, there where no help for me then. Of course Mr Wiseman shall understand that what he did do was wrong and take the jail, and be glad that his drinking problem did not kill him self or somebody else. Alcoholic and drugs are killing people every day in this world. I´m not happy for what i did back then, but i´m proud that i did something about my problems, and are sober in my days now. 
And i´m glad that somebody hade the courage to stop me.
Hope my words don´t irritate you in this forum.
Hasse.


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## restlesswave

being new to this site was just trawling the forums when i came on this thread and found myself very interested in the debate as i followed with great interest when this was in the news. firstly i agree with davie taits comments 100% and to add to the matter from a personal perspective is the point of view how anybody could even treat a boat like that. it may be the fact my people came from an offshore island and were deeply indebted to boats. for our part a boat is/was a part of the family-with a subtle difference a child is a dependent and although the boat is in it`s own way a dependent more often than not the crew are dependent on the boat for their lives. and i`m sure mr wiseman was often in that position. if he couldn`t pay for her-NO BIG DEAL-S*** HAPPENS he wasn`t the first and he`ll no be the last. ivè known men who done the decent thing and walked away from their boats and went back down the pier and on to crew other boats- and a few of those men worked themselves up to further ahead than they ever were. personally i`ve been that far down at times financially i simply couldn`t afford a bottle of whiskey a day. i had a boat to pay for and a family to feed . also he was in good company with his mate-they deserved one another. as my dad advised me when a teen-beware the righteous. these people only take out of the bible the things that suit themselves.(he could have as easily taken the passage `let he who is without sin cast the first stone`) as davie says report him the next day-which in my mind is still wrong as it was a confidence and at that stage unlikely to harm anybody on a personal level. or keep his mouth closed. 
sad to hear the drug problem is so bad in the n.e. a boat is no place for any type of stimulantt
sorry for going of on one but sinking a boat for financial gain is a sick and despicable act.


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