# Ship or Boat ?



## Canvas (Feb 1, 2011)

Can anyone please tell me what is the difference between a Ship and a Boat . This question crops up on most of our voyages and i have not heard anyone give me an answer .
Most come up with : You can row a boat but you cant row a ship : The one that i allways tell them is the one about a Full rigged Ship , ie squared on all masts . 
Is there a better explanation please .


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## Sister Eleff (Nov 28, 2006)

This has been covered before on SN. It was explained simply to me that a ship carries cargo (which could be fare paying passengers) and a boat was a pleasure craft but I feel that this is a bit vague and open to wide variations.


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## lazyjohn (Mar 3, 2011)

There are lots of generalities but I have never found an answer that doesn't have some exceptions.

I would love to know the true answer as well.


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## if-only (Apr 27, 2011)

hi,
when i was in the navy, ships were ships, boats were submarines, which i served in. the best sub film was also called, " DAS BOOT, "


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## cueball44 (Feb 15, 2010)

You can put a boat on a ship, but you can't put a ship on a boat, a boat becomes a ship when it has more than one deck. 'cueball44'


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

"You can put a boat on a ship, but you can't put a ship on a boat"

Quite.


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## barrinoz (Oct 9, 2006)

A ship is a thing of beauty of which you, sometimes, hold treasured memories and photographs. A boat is a hole in the water into which is poured copious amounts of money.
barrinoz.


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## Alistair Macnab (May 13, 2008)

*Boat or Ship*

The question is just for landlubbers. Even a 'ship' is affectionally called a 'boat' by its participants as in "Bank Boat" an affectionate description of any Bank Line 'ship'. Alliteration helps!


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## charles henry (May 18, 2008)

*boats*



barrinoz said:


> A ship is a thing of beauty of which you, sometimes, hold treasured memories and photographs. A boat is a hole in the water into which is poured copious amounts of money.
> barrinoz.


 ac
Totally agree. I have owned a number of boats which got larger and then became progressively smaller (As I got older and less active).
If they had been ships I would have made money, as it was, it was the reverse.

Ahhh memories
chas


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

A lot of people take a perverse pleasure in referring to ships as "boats" even if they are a quarter of a million tons! I know seafarers often refer to them affectionately as Boats as has already been mentioned, i.e. Mail boats, Banana boats, Clan boats etc. but that tends to be in general conversation. You will never see anything official referring to a boat. (I know submarines are boats, by the way!) I knew the difference before I was six years old and I didn't learn it from my parents either as they often referred to them as "boats!" Picked it up from reading an old set of The Wide World Magazine circa 1900, given to me by my grandfather, where ships were always referred to as ships.

For those who (for some reason) can't tell the difference - have you ever heard of
A battleboat,
A flagboat,
A 74-gun boat of the Line, 
A Boating Line,
A Boating Office,

But they never seem to get it wrong with warships, do they? They never say Warboat!

Also nobody ever refers to Tall Boats or Boats in Bottles!

I would agree with Alistair on this. 

A lot of confusion has probably been introduced by non-seafaring shore staff who coined such phrases as Bare-Boat-Charter and the even stranger term for ships as "bottoms!"

Bob


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## captainjohn (Jun 5, 2007)

The term "ship" comes from sailing days and describes a particular rig (3 masts all square rigged), as opposed to a barque or bark (3 masts 1 & 2 square rigged & 3 fore-and-aft), a brig (two masts square rigged), etc. There were all sorts of variations (barquentine, brigatine, etc). 

How the term came into use in mechanically powered vessels I haven't been able to find out. Any thoughts?


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## cueball44 (Feb 15, 2010)

While taking a turn at the same speed, a boat leans TOWARD the center of a turn, while a ship leans AWAY from it. Of course this is caused by different stability & buoyancy characteristics related to the draft and size of the craft. 'cueball44'


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

is that "boat" a sail boat or a power boat, does it have one or two engines or maybe even 3 or 4 if designed that way. Does a twin engine Ipod or Zues drive boat turn into the turn, what about a single hull "boat" or a "catamaran boat".

How about "a boat can be lifted onto a ship but a ship can not be lifted onto a boat" and in turn a dinghy can be lifted onto a boat but a boat can not be lifted onto a dinghy. 

the true meaning though is "a ship needs an engineer to make it work & to get it from A to B whereas a boat can be driven by anybody from A to B." (*))


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

This topic has been written on several times and there really never was a real answer to the question that has been accepted by all.
As I stated before all these ships that sail on the Great Lakes are referred to as "Boats" but there again the US boats go miles per hour (for speed) and miles are statute miles not nautical to mention other differences.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

A ship deosn't necessarily need an engineer or engine to move about. Within living memory, sailing ships could sail around the world without either! schooners, brigs, brigantines, barques barquentines etc are all "sailing ships." A vessel with 3,4 or 5 masts square-rigged on all of them is said to be "ship" rigged, but it does not mean that a vessel rigged as a barque is not a sailing ship.

Boat Train is another phrase coined by non-seafarers to further confuse the issue.

But English is a complicated language anyway, but most can tell the difference between:

To, too and two
Four and for
Principal and principle
Reign and Rain
There and their

I could go on and on.

At the local "Northwest Model Shipwrights" club, most members refer to them as "boats!" I just can't budge them, but most have never been to sea. When someone built a whaler, I referred to whales as big "fish" and that brought about loads of corrective comments that they aren't fishes. But them again, whalemen in sailing ship days invariably referred to them as "fish." 

"If God had wanted to be a fish, he'd have been a whale" - Herman Melville.

When they bring the "rope walk" out for demonstrations, I refer to it as the "string walk" and that also brings about objections. But old sailing ship seamen often refered to the masts and rigging as "sticks and string!"

It isn't complicated to me though and I suspect it isn't really complicated to most of you - but it makes interesting discussion!

Bob


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

some of us are not that old (*))


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## cueball44 (Feb 15, 2010)

Do ''Boat's'' have their own R/O aboard?, or do the Skippers do that job too?. 'cueball44'


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Boats such as trawlers once had radio operators aboard, but don't know if they do now - I doubt it (are there any British trawlers left anyway?) Ships over 1,600 gross tons once had to have radio officers, but nowadays, it seems like the communcation is done by Heads of Departments, because with satcoms, communication is is no longer a skilled occupation (as long as it works)! I left in late '92 when the writing was on the wall - jumped before I was pushed, but it didn't matter as I was getting fed up by that time! (joined my first ship 50 years ago tomorrow!) but have managed very well since then, using the knowledge that I gleaned from all onboard departments! (Scribe) B\)

Bob


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

This is one I really am not sure about. It is HMS LEDBURY (MCMV). I spent 24 hours on it at sea some years ago. I would say that it is a boat (made of plastic as well), but maybe Canvas could give the correct definition!
Bob


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## Derek Roger (Feb 19, 2005)

My understanding has always been that a vessel of less than 500 gross tons is referred to as a boat and those over 500 gross tons are ships .


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

In the 1840s, there were lots and lots of ships and barques of less than 500 tons engaged on international voyges.

I don't suppose it matters any more as most of the general public haven't got much of an idea of what the Merchant Navy is (or was) and not long ago, on the Who Wants to be a Millionaire quiz, the majority of the audience didn't know what a Red Ensign was!

Those who prefer to refer to "ships" as "boats", may as well go the whole hog and say they have have floors rather than decks (yes, I do know there are floors in a ship) and the rooms have ceilings and the smoke or fumes come out of the chimney and the food is cooked in the kitchen and they have a front and a back and right and left hand sides ! 

As it is so easy to call things by the correct name, why not do so, especially on a forum like this where most of us are seafarers or ex seafarers?

Bob


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

as in every walk of life we have to move on, terminology has changed not just on ships but how we talk to each other, why confuse things when refering to decks, floors and soles especially when floors are actual vertical members which could confuse even the old farts (myself included). 

The only name I was disappointed to see change, by others I may add and I still use the old name and that is referring to ships as "it" as opposed to "her". I never did sail on an "it".


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Things have certainly moved on and, as you say, times change. But probably most of us here were at sea with the old terminology and, after all, this is about nostalgia, so I don't see the point in moving with the times now that I am no longer part pf the MN. When I remember how it was, I don't really want to start calling ships "boats" just to suit the majority of modern seafarers!

And agree that changing "her" to "it" can sound a bit ridiculous in certain situations:

Stop it!
Steady as it goes!

Bob


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## cueball44 (Feb 15, 2010)

Here in Hull, the Merchant Navy was referred to as Big Boating, like ''he is on big boats'' '' are you on trawlers'' ''no i am on big boats''. 'cueball44'


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

I feel that is normal "nautical" talk. We often referred to Mail Boats, Banana Boats, Blue Flue Boats etc in general informal chat. But "boat" was never used professionally. I remember a purserette getting a rocket from the mate when we were anchored at Tristan. She put out a broadcast saying "if the weather detriorates, passengers and ship's company must return immediately on hearing three blasts on the hooter!" Good job she didn't say "boat's hooter!"(MAD)

But I don't believe the question was about informal chat, or slang, it was about the difference between a boat and a ship!

Bob


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## E.Martin (Sep 6, 2008)

It was always,Joining a ship,or get back to the ship,cargo ship,passenger ship.
Only time boat was mentioned would be lifeboat or jolly boat.
Prior to booting up I was in my garage I took note of the nautical things I had there.
Serving Mallet
Palm
Needle
Whipping twine
Inglefield Clips
Rope
Twine
Seaming twine
Wooden Needle (Fishing)
Small Blocks
Small Shackles
Deck Scrub
Compass
Float (Fishing)
Small Wire
Various Marline Spikes
Flemish Fid
Lignavita Fids
Bees Wax
Spunyarn (I love the smell of spunyarn)

I need a boat or a ship to put that material to some use.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

What a splendid reply. Isn't this what Ships Nostalgia is all about?

Bob


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## Tony Collins (Aug 29, 2010)

Is this a ship or a boat? Don't tell me it is neither because it is a yacht.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

No doubt the height of luxury and high technology, but it doesn't appeal to me at all, so would be happy to let it go as a yacht!
Bob (Dinasaur)


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Tony Collins said:


> Is this a ship or a boat? Don't tell me it is neither because it is a yacht.


I do believe it is classed as a _super_yacht


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

Funny how us Houlder Bros guys all joined Gas boats by a supply boat up the gulf, went ashore in a liberty boat in Rio some of us paid off in North Europe after being away for 7 months on the "big boats" and came back on a ferry. 

All deep sea and never a mention of a ship. 

I think even the "posh guys" joined the meat boats in Houlders


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

I was never in a meat boat, but I was in a Houlders ore boat once - the JOYA MCCANCE - liked it very much, but awful run - West Africa & Seven Islands! Captain & chief were Neale & Parr, both splendid fellows. Saw Len Parr years later in Las Palmas when he was chief on a Palm boat and I was on a Castle boat.
Bob


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## rickles23 (Oct 13, 2006)

Hi,
"You can put a boat on a ship, but you can't put a ship on a boat"

So what about the heavy lift ship and the destroyer? (LOL)
Regards


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

That is putting a ship on another ship! Or a boat on another boat. 
Bob


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## E.Martin (Sep 6, 2008)

Shipbuilder said:


> That is putting a ship on another ship! Or a boat on another boat.
> Bob


I am not sure about this,I do not think the destroyer was put on,she was floated on.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Well, that means that the carrying vessel submerged at least partly, to allow the destroyer to be floated on. So that means the carrier was to some extent a submarine (boat). So we have a ship on a boat!

I give up. Call them what you will, but I will stick to the old familar nautical terms. Although I was never any great scholar (11+ failed and not a single O level) I could at least distinguish between a boat and a ship and the Merchant Navy was, and still is, my saviour (probably not good enough for anything else)!

Times change, but I am glad I was born in 1944 when things were calming down again and everything became quite clear-cut for many years. I would not like to be a school-leaver today and wouldn't even consider going to sea today in modern boats - they don't appeal to me at all. Give me a good-looking ship of pre 60s vintage any day. Isn't that one of the reasons for being on Nostalgia anyway?

Bob


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## MARINEJOCKY (Nov 25, 2007)

I have never heard a destroyer called a "destroyer ship" battle ship yes, but a cruiser, destroyer, mine sweeper and no mention of a ship.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

They are collectively known as "warships" though, aren't they?
Bob


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## E.Martin (Sep 6, 2008)

Moter Torpedo Boat MTB
Moter Gun Boat MGB
Moter Launch ML
Moter Launch? Ship or Boat.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

OK, I admit defeat as far as the Royal Navy is concerned. I always thought they were ships, but have now learned they are warboats, but I never claimed much knowledge about them! I should keep quiet about RN boats!

Looked in my discharge books & found three columns:
Name of Ship, Port of Rgistry etc.
Joining Ship.
Leaving Ship.

Still, it has kept me amused for a while, but tiring of the game now(==D)

Bob


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## kewl dude (Jun 1, 2008)

Nearly two years ago, 26th July 2009, Alistair Macnab began a similar thread titled:

Ships or Boats?

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=28185

The same as cueball44’s post # 5 I always subscribed to the opinion

"You can put a boat on a ship, but you can't put a ship on a boat"

But then there is the below collage of three pictures I put up.

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18430&d=1273644025

The USS Cole and an UK Naval ship being brought home after foreign misadventures.

Ship or Boat?

Greg Hayden


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Greg,
It's all a "wind up" really and I knew that from the start, but had nothing better to do for a few days, so took part in it!B\), but back to work tomorrow!
Bob


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## charles henry (May 18, 2008)

Interesting discussion but surely a "gunboat" is a ship, then again can both ships
and boats be described as being a "Vessel".
chas


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## John Dryden (Sep 26, 2009)

I would consider my boat to be a vessel chas........it,s a gravy boat!


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## cueball44 (Feb 15, 2010)

In the USCG they teach you that anything over 65ft is a ''CUTTER'' not a ship. All the rest are just ''BOATS''. I guess they don't have ships. 'cueball44'


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## Sister Eleff (Nov 28, 2006)

A submariner I once knew, told me that submarines were boats and anything else was a target (Jester)


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## barrinoz (Oct 9, 2006)

Sister Eleff said:


> A submariner I once knew, told me that submarines were boats and anything else was a target (Jester)


Best answer of the thread!
barrinoz.


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## Canvas (Feb 1, 2011)

Firstly many thanks to all members who took part in this little discussion , it has also been talked about onboard Tenacious at lenght and we can most certainly say that there is no definative answer to the question . I am at present tied up with the ship or boat at West India dock in London having arrived this afternoon and would like to extend a welcome to any Member who might live nearby to pay us a visit . We sail on the 12th and return to Southampton . If you fancy a visit to the ship get the DLR to South Quay and we are berthed in West India Dock ( 3masted Barque), just ask for Mike or MvB .


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## Tony Collins (Aug 29, 2010)

*Canvas*

What a kind offer Canvas, unfortunately unable to get there during your visit. Thanks for the offer though, I hope some of our forumite colleagues do make it though.


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## Christopher Knight (Nov 17, 2009)

From the various replies above, it would appear to depend on dimensions, size etc, tug boats have various decks but are still referred to as boats, so I don't agree with the single deck theory! The dimensions, size etc, at which a boat becomes a ship opens a whole new theory/quandry!!


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## joebuckham (Apr 1, 2005)

perhaps the attachments will help or will they further cloud (Cloud)the issue

courtesy of (1) ansted ; a dictionary of sea terms
(2&3) kemp ; the oxford companion to ships and the sea
(4) adm. wh smyth sailor's word-book


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## 40907 (Sep 26, 2009)

joebuckham said:


> "But a seaman will never call any sort of ship, packet, mail, or any other, a boat as the two terms are not synonymous and are to him quite distinct."


Herein lies the truth and landlubbers should just learn the difference from him (the seaman) and accept it.


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## Jocko (Oct 31, 2011)

Someone once told me it had to do with the rigging but that explaination made me none the wiser. It definately not in tonnage as there some very large trawlers out there and they are always referred to as Fishing boats.
Years ago I was aboard a replica of HMS Bounty in Florida and I was amazed at how small she was.
I am glad that I found this thread as I`ve always wondered what the answer was to this question. Now at last I am happy in my ignorance as it appears that I am not alone as nobody else knows either.
I`m content to just leave the term Boat as an affectionate name for ones vessel just as we say The kids or The mates, muckers etc.


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## Jocko (Oct 31, 2011)

E. Martin gave us a list of the maritime gear in his garage. One of them was "Lignavita Fids" What is this and what is it used for?
The closest I could get to this is Lignum Vitae which is a hardwood 20 times harder than oak. The only use for this as far as I know was to pack the Stern gland, which always had to be checked and kept wet.


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## donandgina (Nov 12, 2011)

I belive I saw a TV show years ago when a chief P.O on the aircraft carrier Ark Royal addressed some sailors coming back on board, who worse for wear, with the the words, 

"Don't you ever come back on my War Canoe in that state again."

Don


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

Canvas said:


> Can anyone please tell me what is the difference between a Ship and a Boat . This question crops up on most of our voyages and i have not heard anyone give me an answer .
> Most come up with : You can row a boat but you cant row a ship : The one that i allways tell them is the one about a Full rigged Ship , ie squared on all masts .
> Is there a better explanation please .


One thing I'd like to point out is that a ship must be SEAWORTHY. 

Thus it is proper to call so many of the great lakes ore boats "boats" since, for much of the 20th century, they were built with half the longitudinal bending strength of their seagoing equivalents.

In this way, such a vessel 1000 feet long and many thousands of tons, is simply a boat, while a ship may be something a small fraction that size. 

There is also legal authority for this distinction, with my dictionary saying it must be suitable for navigation on the high seas. It also gives a functional element to the definition, "ship" thus also being defined such that "...the purpose and business of the craft as an instrument of marine transportation..." is manifested. This leaves "Warships" an undefined concept. I don't have an Admiralty law dictionary, one of those, or an Admiralty lawyer, perhaps on this site may be of help?

I would tend to think that any naval vessel too small to carry enough fuel to cross an ocean would probably be unsuitable to "...navigation on the high seas...", so you would be talking about a boat .

I'm not aware of the term "ship" ever properly defined by size; a thoroughly square-rigged three masted vessel was always a ship, while a 5 masted barque 3 times her size wasn't.

I'm drawing from the "International Maritime Dictionary", 2nd edition by Rene de Kerchove, isbn 0442020627.

Slang usage perhaps can be gotten away with between friends when the context is understood, or can be so easily clarified. Much beyond that situation and it doesn't work too efficiently.


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

Jocko said:


> E. Martin gave us a list of the maritime gear in his garage. One of them was "Lignavita Fids" What is this and what is it used for?
> The closest I could get to this is Lignum Vitae which is a hardwood 20 times harder than oak. The only use for this as far as I know was to pack the Stern gland, which always had to be checked and kept wet.


According to my dictionary, there are a few different kinds, one would be a Mast Fid: "a square, wedge-shaped bar of wood or iron used to support a housing topmast or topgallant mast by inserting it through the fid hole in the heel of the mast. The ends resting on the trestletrees take the weight of the mast and maintain it in place. The fid is also used in small craft to keep a running bowsprit in place."

If it's a splicing fid, it's probably round, tapered, 12" to 24" long, rounded at the head, and yes, was sometimes made of this wood. According to my dictionary, it's actually a subtype of marline spike, minus the flattened head and with a rounded point instead of a wedge shaped point. All the fids I ever used were much fatter than the marline spikes I used, the latter being used for splicing wire rope.


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

MARINEJOCKY said:


> I have never heard a destroyer called a "destroyer ship" battle ship yes, but a cruiser, destroyer, mine sweeper and no mention of a ship.


"Warship". 

A battleship is a ship built, etc. For use in battle. Just calling it a "battle" could be confusing. 

Destroyers were originally called torpedo boat destroyers, and discussing them in any maritime context shouldn't leave anyone looking for a crane with a wrecking ball attached. Nonetheless, I have heard them specified as naval destroyers anyway. Now, those navel destroyers, on the other hand...

A minesweeper may not even float. One of the definitions in my English dictionary for minesweeper is: "a heavy roller attached to the front of a military tank for exploding land mines.

I suppose the naval variety would be a minesweeping ship if it were seaworthy, if too small, then...


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## needadditionalinformation (Jan 30, 2006)

Ships defined as such by their rigging were often called "full rigged ships", though that would seem to be redundant, given the definition.

I suppose the implication was that Barques, even bigger ones, seemed to be lacking something beyond a little rigging. This is probably why the Preussen was made a bigger deal of than the second Barque named France, who was larger. In fact, I think the 7 masted schooner Thomas Lawson was also bigger than the Preussen.

Perhaps the inference from this was a grandiosity that may explain why we classify a 300,000 ton oil tanker as a "ship" and not a barque, brig, etc., and certainly not a boat, not even a "long boat", something old time ships and barques alike carried, rather than were.


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## TOM ALEXANDER (Dec 24, 2008)

Remember when I was a young lad, my Aunt Em looked out from the Isle of Sheppey and saw a vessel off shore. She wasn't quite sure what to call it (her?) so she called it a ship-boat. That became a standing family joke as there were what we later called "Bovril boats" that hauled sewage sludge from the London area out to the North Sea for dumping.


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

A "Fid" was used to splice rope.
They varied in size and the really large one was used to splice mooring lines.They were about 8" in cir***ference and tough to put splice in, especially if wet.
Some had a chisel point and others a round piont.
The large ones tapered to about 8" in cir.


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## storming (Apr 14, 2006)

same in GY


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## joebuckham (Apr 1, 2005)

fid for rope, marline spike for wire ropes and freeing shackles 


see the admirals description below


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