# Engineering apprenticeships



## ART6

According to Process Engineering magazine today the UK government wants to introduce engineering apprenticeship schemes to correct the country's skill shortage. (http://processengineering.theengineer.co.uk/are-uk-apprentices-being-short-changed/1013956.article ). They seem to be under the impression that a skilled tradesman can be created in a 42 week apprenticeship. That comes as news to me! In the shipyard where I served my time the course was a minimum of four years, at the end of which one became a "journeyman", which was considered as a halfway house between being half-trained and becoming fully competent and lasted for two or three years before one was allowed to do anything serious!

Sadly in my day there were not such far-sighted politicians. If there had been I could have become a skilled engineer at age seventeen
B\)


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## john g

I can see where your coming from and agree to some extent but engineering has moved on. Fitting skills are not so important as new technology makes parts that fit and we live in a throw away world. HMI screens tell you where the problem is ( and often the solution) .Tools and fastenings are more standardised and design makes replacement easier. Who files a straight edge when milling cutters are common place.Sure you can't beat experience but people seem to move around more these days.


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## KernowJim

I served my time shore side and remember the day when I completed my apprenticeship an old fitter telling me that it was at that point that I would "start to learn my trade" how right he was!

There is a huge skill shortage at the moment and to be honest anything that gets a young person onto the path of obtaining a trade qualification has only got to be a good thing. 
Employers aren't stupid and know that anybody that has completed a 42 week scheme is highly unlikely to be as good as somebody who as spent 4 years learning their trade. There will be the occasional exception to that I'm sure.

I'm still learning to this very day and take great pleasure in passing on what little knowledge I have to the younger lads working with me.


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## ART6

john g said:


> I can see where your coming from and agree to some extent but engineering has moved on. Fitting skills are not so important as new technology makes parts that fit and we live in a throw away world. HMI screens tell you where the problem is ( and often the solution) .Tools and fastenings are more standardised and design makes replacement easier. Who files a straight edge when milling cutters are common place.Sure you can't beat experience but people seem to move around more these days.


I take your point John, but a standardised fitting is of little value if no-one showed you how to use it. A milling machine, even a fully CNC one, is fine if someone knows how to load it and set it up. And what about plant maintenance? All of the automation and standardisation in the world won't help you when a machine is out of service and the plant manager is exhibiting all of the symptoms of apoplexy.



KernowJim said:


> I served my time shore side and remember the day when I completed my apprenticeship an old fitter telling me that it was at that point that I would "start to learn my trade" how right he was!
> 
> There is a huge skill shortage at the moment and to be honest anything that gets a young person onto the path of obtaining a trade qualification has only got to be a good thing.
> Employers aren't stupid and know that anybody that has completed a 42 week scheme is highly unlikely to be as good as somebody who as spent 4 years learning their trade. There will be the occasional exception to that I'm sure.
> 
> I'm still learning to this very day and take great pleasure in passing on what little knowledge I have to the younger lads working with me.


Again, I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post. Anything that gets your men and women into engineering has to be good for the country. However, I cannot believe that anyone seriously believes that a skilled trade can be learned in 42 weeks (apart from politicians and civil servants, that is -- Peace be upon them!). Sure, it might be enough to get them started, but it might also lead to disillusionment in that they expect after the 42 weeks to be treated as craftsmen or women, and that ain't going to happen. Someone needs to gently tell them that they have a few years to go yet.

I recall, in the arrogance of youth, that when I completed my apprenticeship and got my Shipping Federation grading, I considered myself (and said so) to be a qualified engineer. I very quickly learned the error of my ways!

Since then I have spent some fifty five years in engineering, from being a ships engineer to designing and building large process plants ashore. Like you I have had to continue the learning process endlessly, and enjoyed doing so. I am one of those weirdos who digest the IMarEst journal every time it is issued. That is the sort of ethos that we need to engender in the young. We need to persuade them that it isn't easy, because if it was it wouldn't be worthwhile.


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## spongebob

At the dockyard we had to serve ten thousand hours,no more no less and after initial training in the apprentice work shop we were sent out and around the various specialty depts such as the ship fitters, machine shop, internal combustion shop, refrigeration shop and the drawing office.As our group reached the final few months we persuaded the sign writers to make up a mahogany board emblazoned with - 
"Senior Apprentices" in gilt and royal blue enamel. This was placed on our cafeteria table and one day the chief engineer from the drawing office walked passed, spied our sign and entered to say in his loud and cultured English voice-
"Senior apprentices today, very junior journeymen tomorrow"
Loud guffaws from all the seasoned tradesmen and a few chastened SA's.




Bob


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## ninabaker

I was listening to a proramme yesterday on BBC radio Scotland where some engineering company director was moaning away about the lack of skilled technicians for the offshore industry - he was saying no problem to take on youngsters as apprentices nowadays (kids are desperate for the work of course) but finding a 10-year experienced worker was impossible.

IT IS THE INDUSTRY'S OWN FAULT AND NO ONE ELSE'S They didnt take on apprentices 15 years ago in sufficient numbers and then keep them on to become the experienced techs they now need. OF COURSE they cant find them - they failed to plan for the future. 

This is the oft-repeated tale of many industries, but construction and engineering are easily the worst and should know better. As has been pointed out above, you cant churn out a really decent craftworker/technician in under about 7 years (training and gaining experience) in nearly anything.


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## vectiscol

As far as I know, secondary schools do not teach real engineering any more. At my school, the 'O'-level metalwork course included work on lathes, vertical drills and milling machines, heat treatments, filing, and cutting screw threads with taps and dies. All that was before starting an apprenticeship. Health and Safety would have a fit nowawadays.


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## binliner

served my electrical apprenticeship with the NCB in the early 60s which consisted of a couple of months with a joiner,welder,turner and blacksmith and a year at college on day release and the rest of the time in the electrical workshop and down the pit on the "face". I suppose there was no financial reward for the NCB training the thousands of apprentices that they did but you had a rounded training and felt equiped to enter any job.


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## oldman 80

I'm a now long retired Deck Guy - but I still remember the days when a marine engineer was just that.
By which I mean, they had done a 4 year apprenticeship in a shipbuilding yard, then come to sea as a junior engineer, thereafter working their way up through the old Board of Trade System.
They were engineers - they could fix things, - not just talk about them.
The newer "systems" didn't appear to turn out the same quality of engineer in my view, but there were exceptions of course.
The guy who mentioned "Metalwork" in schools - has a very good point - a good start - that's for sure.


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## Eric Wallace

I served 5 years apprenticeship as an engineer with the NCB then went to sea as a jr. the n4th and finally 3rd.makes me think of the old joke served 5yrs as an apprentice engineer now I are one.I am now 77 and wish I was 16 just starting out.Good days all gone.Eric Wallace


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## john g

I don't think any company would take 42 weeks as being a qualifiation but it may well confirm the person in question has the right attitude towards engineering.Engineering has become specialised in many different high tech forms this is were the learning and experience starts after the 42 weeks.


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## chadburn

ninabaker said:


> I was listening to a proramme yesterday on BBC radio Scotland where some engineering company director was moaning away about the lack of skilled technicians for the offshore industry - he was saying no problem to take on youngsters as apprentices nowadays (kids are desperate for the work of course) but finding a 10-year experienced worker was impossible.
> 
> IT IS THE INDUSTRY'S OWN FAULT AND NO ONE ELSE'S They didnt take on apprentices 15 years ago in sufficient numbers and then keep them on to become the experienced techs they now need. OF COURSE they cant find them - they failed to plan for the future.
> 
> This is the oft-repeated tale of many industries, but construction and engineering are easily the worst and should know better. As has been pointed out above, you cant churn out a really decent craftworker/technician in under about 7 years (training and gaining experience) in nearly anything.


Nina
I could not have put it better myself, it is indeed "The Industries own fault"


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## 5036

I remember hearing about a guy that started as apprentice 13th stoker on the Queen Elizabeth and after seven years had worked his way to assistant 7th.

Accountants got rid of apprentices in yet another cost saving exercise that would turn on them savagely in latter years.

Surprisingly, Prince Phillip wrote an amazing paper on it all at:

http://www.ingenia.org.uk/ingenia/articles.aspx?index=574

http://profeng.com/archive/royal-backing-for-engineering

also gives some insight into this real royal who I, for one, would love to have a beer with.


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## Ron Stringer

nav said:


> Accountants got rid of apprentices in yet another cost saving exercise that would turn on them savagely in latter years.


When I first became a manager with budgets to prepare and achieve (in GEC you had to achieve your budget), one item that had to be considered was the Industrial Training Levy. At this distance I can't remember what percentage of turnover was involved, but it was a tax paid by each employer to an Industrial Training Board to cover the cost of training the workforce in general (not just your own company).

However if your company provided approved training and apprenticeships, you could claim funding from the appropriate Industrial Training Board for each person under training. GEC was extremely concerned to provide sufficient training to ensure that it was always a net beneficiary from these schemes. As a consequence, although we had to make provision for the contributions, the company always got back far more than we paid in.

Some time in the 1990s the schemes were abandoned by Government and apprenticeships, OU courses etc., were all stopped. Short term savings, long - term losses. 'Twas ever thus with politicians. When the going gets tough - they get the Hell out of there.


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## ninabaker

vectiscol said:


> As far as I know, secondary schools do not teach real engineering any more. At my school, the 'O'-level metalwork course included work on lathes, vertical drills and milling machines, heat treatments, filing, and cutting screw threads with taps and dies. All that was before starting an apprenticeship. Health and Safety would have a fit nowawadays.


Certainly they dont here in Glasgow, although I think there is one school that is letting the 'non-academic stream' do an afternoon of 'work skills' , which apparently consist of DIY, car maintenance and hair dressing. A sort of step in the right direction, but certainly not workshop as anyone of our age might recall it. And it is of course for the 'non-academics' which is insult enough to the brain-strain required to master the necessary theories of mechanics or electrics that any engineer needs.

My son, pretty academic (5 good highers) but not as stellar as his big sister, is doing me proud by going to be one of a tiny group at Birmingham City Uni studying watch and clock making and repair. His first year was a REAL steep learning curve as he had to get to grips with all this ultra-fine tolerance work, pretty much from a standing start, having of course had no tech workshop at all at school. But there are no grants, no apprenticeships and his HND is costing me £6k per year in fees.

grrrrrr


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## oldman 80

Ron Stringer said:


> Some time in the 1990s the schemes were abandoned by Government and apprenticeships, OU courses etc., were all stopped. Short term savings, long - term losses. 'Twas ever thus with politicians. When the going gets tough - they get the Hell out of there.


Thatcherism - yet again.


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## oldman 80

Ron Stringer said:


> Some time in the 1990s the schemes were abandoned by Government and apprenticeships, OU courses etc., were all stopped. Short term savings, long - term losses. 'Twas ever thus with politicians. When the going gets tough - they get the Hell out of there.


Thatcherism - yet again.


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## ART6

vectiscol said:


> As far as I know, secondary schools do not teach real engineering any more. At my school, the 'O'-level metalwork course included work on lathes, vertical drills and milling machines, heat treatments, filing, and cutting screw threads with taps and dies. All that was before starting an apprenticeship. Health and Safety would have a fit nowawadays.


I went down that route too. I gained entry into a technical school at age 13. It was a school that prided itself on turning out potential engineers, and it was there that at that early age I found myself making things on lathes and milling machines and grinders. One of the first things the kids like me had to do was make themselves a set of tools -- simple things like tee squares, centre finders, calipers etc. -- and I still have and use the ones I made sixty years ago!


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## oldman 80

ART6 said:


> I went down that route too. I gained entry into a technical school at age 13. It was a school that prided itself on turning out potential engineers, and it was there that at that early age I found myself making things on lathes and milling machines and grinders. One of the first things the kids like me had to do was make themselves a set of tools -- simple things like tee squares, centre finders, calipers etc. -- and I still have and use the ones I made sixty years ago!


Now that sounds like a first class start.
The technical school may have prided itself in turning out engineers, but that is just a part of the story, I suspect.
It seems to me that in your case the student also took a pride in what he was doing. He must have, otherwise I doubt he would still be using those simple yet most important of things today - 60 yrs later.
A return to those days would benefit one and all - me thinks.
A return to basics - good basics - at that.
(Thumb)


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## 5036

Seems that the teacher was inspirational, a great gift. It is now unfashionable to be an engineer in many quarters, thank "reality" television for a lot of the present woes we have.


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## ART6

oldman 80 said:


> Now that sounds like a first class start.
> The technical school may have prided itself in turning out engineers, but that is just a part of the story, I suspect.
> It seems to me that in your case the student also took a pride in what he was doing. He must have, otherwise I doubt he would still be using those simple yet most important of things today - 60 yrs later.
> A return to those days would benefit one and all - me thinks.
> A return to basics - good basics - at that.
> (Thumb)


You are dead on there Sir! My school was very much an odd ball in that the headmaster was certainly the most innovative and far sighted of any I have even experienced. One primary entry qualification for the school was that one had to have represented one's previous school in inter-school sports. That sounds unfair to those with no sporting abilities perhaps, but it did indicate a desire to be good at something and to take pride in it.

Yes, pride. Something that is supposed to be almost sinful, but we were taught that it was an essential attribute to success. It meant that when one completed something in the workshops, one must look at it coldly and critically, and if it wasn't quite up to standard, bin it and do it again until it was done right, then be proud of the result and the effort it took. Strive to be the best!

It was because that was driven into us right from the start that when the time came for us to go out into the world we were very much in demand -- I was immediately offered six engineering apprenticeships in local firms. I didn't take any of them because I had decided that I wanted to be a ships engineer, so I got myself an apprenticeship in a Glasgow shipyard, at the other end of the country!

When I finally got to sea, in a job that I loved, the same ethos made me spend all my watchkeeping hours imagining things that could possibly go wrong and how I would then fix them. I wanted to be the best at my job, and the be recognised as such. Pride? vanity? Possibly. Or, perhaps, just wanting to be seen as a professional!

It seems to me that if the government really wants to reinstate British engineering, then a good start would be to reintroduce schools like mine, so that employers can access youngsters who they can see already have the ethos and technical competence to be worth the expense of apprenticeships.


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## Ron Stringer

oldman 80 said:


> Thatcherism - yet again.


Possibly but the reality was that as soon as the company had to use its own money for the training (rather than using grants from the ITB) it ceased to fund all non-essential training. Only specific courses on new equipment or processes were authorised. No new apprentices were taken on, the Marconi Training School was cut back and finally closed (the land is now an estate of "Executive Homes" - 3- and 4-bedroomed houses crammed cheek-by-jowl between Arbour Lane and the railway line). Day-release was stopped as well.

Oh! But of course Health and Safety training increased. Maybe there were grants for that and I wasn't aware of them but the HR department were.


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## Duncan112

ninabaker said:


> Certainly they dont here in Glasgow, although I think there is one school that is letting the 'non-academic stream' do an afternoon of 'work skills' , which apparently consist of DIY, car maintenance and hair dressing. A sort of step in the right direction, but certainly not workshop as anyone of our age might recall it. And it is of course for the 'non-academics' which is insult enough to the brain-strain required to master the necessary theories of mechanics or electrics that any engineer needs.
> 
> My son, pretty academic (5 good highers) but not as stellar as his big sister, is doing me proud by going to be one of a tiny group at Birmingham City Uni studying watch and clock making and repair. His first year was a REAL steep learning curve as he had to get to grips with all this ultra-fine tolerance work, pretty much from a standing start, having of course had no tech workshop at all at school. But there are no grants, no apprenticeships and his HND is costing me £6k per year in fees.
> 
> grrrrrr


Nina, all the best to your son in a very exacting craft, no doubt he is aware of the late George Daniels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Daniels_(watchmaker) who started at night school, I look forward to seeing his work (and, if I win the lottery affording it!!)


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## iain48

[QUOTE=Ron Stringer; No new apprentices were taken on, the Marconi Training School was cut back and finally closed (the land is now an estate of "Executive Homes" - 3- and 4-bedroomed houses crammed cheek-by-jowl between Arbour Lane and the railway line). Day-release was stopped as well.

Off topic but the new houses would be handy for going to The Alma or Red Lion, sometimes I really miss Chelmsford, a lot of good times in my twenty odd years there.


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## Varley

Duncan112 said:


> Nina, all the best to your son in a very exacting craft, no doubt he is aware of the late George Daniels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Daniels_(watchmaker) who started at night school, I look forward to seeing his work (and, if I win the lottery affording it!!)


Nina/Duncan,

You will be pleased to know that the late Mr. Daniel's protege Roger Smith carries on in his own workshop which I have had the privilege to visit. To see the coaxial movement in action and to realize it is possible to work at such a scale is amazing. You are not paying for timekeeping, however, but for the best in both the art and technology of the mechanical timepiece. For timekeeping go electronic. I tried to interest Roger in a true digital mechanical watch without success. 

An aside on analogue Vs digital. Tom McNeill arrived at the office one morning to reveal his amazement that his son could not tell the time 'fluently' from a clock face. Nothing to do with mental capacity, this was not that long before he went up to read for a Physics Degree, but simply that he had grown up using only digital watches/clocks.


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## ART6

Varley said:


> An aside on analogue Vs digital. Tom McNeill arrived at the office one morning to reveal his amazement that his son could not tell the time 'fluently' from a clock face. Nothing to do with mental capacity, this was not that long before he went up to read for a Physics Degree, but simply that he had grown up using only digital watches/clocks.


That brings to mind something else: In recent years I have regularly come across younger people who simply didn't do mental arithmetic. For even the simplest calculation they reached for the calculator. I have spent the last thirty five years of my life being responsible for the design of process engineering plants, and I spent much of that time sitting in front of CAD computers. When I needed the results of a calculation to proceed I instinctively did the computation in my head where possible (being too bloody idle to find the calculator buried under the piles of paper!). Reaching for the electronic device tended to be an afterthought. 

I am, clearly, a dinosaur as my son and daughter tell me. "Why tax your brain, Dad, when you can simply press some buttons?" I don't know why. It just never seems as satisfying to insert the calculation from a machine and see it work as it does when it comes out of my head!


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## oldman 80

ART6 said:


> You are dead on there Sir! My school was very much an odd ball in that the headmaster was certainly the most innovative and far sighted of any I have even experienced. One primary entry qualification for the school was that one had to have represented one's previous school in inter-school sports. That sounds unfair to those with no sporting abilities perhaps, but it did indicate a desire to be good at something and to take pride in it.
> 
> Yes, pride. Something that is supposed to be almost sinful, but we were taught that it was an essential attribute to success. It meant that when one completed something in the workshops, one must look at it coldly and critically, and if it wasn't quite up to standard, bin it and do it again until it was done right, then be proud of the result and the effort it took. Strive to be the best!
> 
> It was because that was driven into us right from the start that when the time came for us to go out into the world we were very much in demand -- I was immediately offered six engineering apprenticeships in local firms. I didn't take any of them because I had decided that I wanted to be a ships engineer, so I got myself an apprenticeship in a Glasgow shipyard, at the other end of the country!
> 
> When I finally got to sea, in a job that I loved, the same ethos made me spend all my watchkeeping hours imagining things that could possibly go wrong and how I would then fix them. I wanted to be the best at my job, and the be recognised as such. Pride? vanity? Possibly. Or, perhaps, just wanting to be seen as a professional!
> 
> It seems to me that if the government really wants to reinstate British engineering, then a good start would be to reintroduce schools like mine, so that employers can access youngsters who they can see already have the ethos and technical competence to be worth the expense of apprenticeships.


*Congratulations Art 6* - your posting is so totally correct, so much so that you excite me. 
Were Kitchener still with us I am sure there would be another poster adorning every bill board, and every motorway fly-over, the length and breadth of the land. Not so much "Your Country Needs You" , as indeed was the case in the past, but rather "Our Future Requires You", as is the case at this time, - and make no mistake, his finger would be pointing at you.
You are so correct in what you say - absolutely you are.
Talk about "odd ball" schools - well "odd ball" or not, they, the "odd balls", each had something special to offer.
I attended such an institution, odd ball, to say the least, but nevertheless remarkable in as much as "inspiration" was the primary objective, above all other things, and a belief that in acheiving that, the required academics would automatically fall into place.
*It was indeed a sad day* when that thing you call "Pride" became undesireable, indeed sinfull, as you suggest.
To be good at "something" is essential, and it doesn't really matter a damn what it is. Being good at "something" spells success, which in turn breeds further success. It should also be recognised that ultimate success is invariably the result of some failure/s.
Dealing with and overcoming those failures, is a propellent of further successes. 
I am heartened by what you have posted - I just didn't think there were any like you still around. 
It is good that you were Proud, - Pride is essential. It says to me you were good at what you did ( & do), and that in turn, explains why you enjoyed it.
Pride is therefore a good thing, certainly O.K. - "without vanity and prejudice" - of course.
What better place could anyone have found to commence the journey toward becoming a ships engineer. I bet you were a good one - indeed I can smell that from here, on the other side of the world.
A Clyde built Engineer - that's as good as a Clyde Built Ship - *and there indeed was a time,* where few, if any, were better.
The ethos you mention on watch:- the imagination, the consideration of the event, determination of the solution, - those are the things which make you unique - which are highly desireable, the envy of all, found only on occassion, and which probably stem from the first class start which you had - all those years ago. The dream was born at a impressionable age, at the right age - in my opinion.
That " Vanity " you mention, had nothing to do with it at all - you liked what you did, which means you were good at it. Within that concept Pride does have a rightfull, and well earned place.
You should be proud - for it is clear that pride is rightfully yours.
I whole heartedly endorse every word of your post, and take this opportunity to say - it is a great contribution to this site.
Industry, government, and the powers that be, would be well advised to consider your words at length, and to act upon them.
Kindest regards,
Jerry.


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## ART6

Thanks Oldman. I appreciate your comments although I am not sure that i really deserve them. I just see myself as an old-fashioned engineer. However, there is one little story that I would share on this forum:

A number of years ago I found myself general manager of a large mechanical and automotive engineering outfit, and every year we took on six apprentices. I always insisted on finally interviewing every selected applicant and, in every case, I wanted to know why they wanted to be engineers. I asked what did they know about engineering. What had they done to learn about it? Did they have any idea of what they would have to do to become respected?

One year one of the applicants was a girl -- the first time ever! She had done her homework, and she knew what she wanted. Her parents were horrified and they came to persuade me that she shouldn't have even applied -- Not a job for a girl!

My reaction, I'm afraid, was that if I select her, I will do so in the belief that she can make it in the engineering profession, and I didn't care a damn about her gender. It would be tough, and she would get dirty, and her fingernails would become black. She would receive no special favours. Her parents were horrified, but I insisted that maybe we knew best how to guide a young person into a career since we were employers.

I gave her the job, after due competition with the other applicants, and she worked like a Trojan. She studied hard, and in every year in her day release course, she came top of the class. Some years later, long after I had moved on, I was told that she had become the chief engineer of a UK heavy truck builder.

That sort of experience is one of the most rewarding of managing apprenticeships, and it builds the future of society. What it also suggests to me is that sooner or later someone will wake up to the idea that the future is not dependent upon the spreadsheets of the bean counters and the spin of the politicians. It is wholly dependent upon those who can make things, and those who can navigate the world to deliver them.

Oh well, what would I know? I am a dinosaur!


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## oldman 80

ART6 said:


> Thanks Oldman. I appreciate your comments although I am not sure that i really deserve them. I just see myself as an old-fashioned engineer. However, there is one little story that I would share on this forum:
> 
> A number of years ago I found myself general manager of a large mechanical and automotive engineering outfit, and every year we took on six apprentices. I always insisted on finally interviewing every selected applicant and, in every case, I wanted to know why they wanted to be engineers. I asked what did they know about engineering. What had they done to learn about it? Did they have any idea of what they would have to do to become respected?
> 
> One year one of the applicants was a girl -- the first time ever! She had done her homework, and she knew what she wanted. Her parents were horrified and they came to persuade me that she shouldn't have even applied -- Not a job for a girl!
> 
> My reaction, I'm afraid, was that if I select her, I will do so in the belief that she can make it in the engineering profession, and I didn't care a damn about her gender. It would be tough, and she would get dirty, and her fingernails would become black. She would receive no special favours. Her parents were horrified, but I insisted that maybe we knew best how to guide a young person into a career since we were employers.
> 
> I gave her the job, after due competition with the other applicants, and she worked like a Trojan. She studied hard, and in every year in her day release course, she came top of the class. Some years later, long after I had moved on, I was told that she had become the chief engineer of a UK heavy truck builder.
> 
> That sort of experience is one of the most rewarding of managing apprenticeships, and it builds the future of society. What it also suggests to me is that sooner or later someone will wake up to the idea that the future is not dependent upon the spreadsheets of the bean counters and the spin of the politicians. It is wholly dependent upon those who can make things, and those who can navigate the world to deliver them.
> 
> Oh well, what would I know? I am a dinosaur!



Now that is a great story, one which is well worth publishing, I believe.
You deserve all the comments I made, and more besides.
YOUR apprentices were most fortunate it would seem, and I am sure there are many out there who could still benefit greatly from your experiences and indeed your philosophy even if only in the form of words of encouragement and direction.
In a previous post, you mentioned your own children commenting "Why tax your brain when you only need to press a button ?" ( a reference to calculators)
I think that reference sums up so much. To me, it is the clearest of statements which indicate a modern dilema, - all prospects of job satisfaction now denied.
Job satisfaction, I think you will agree, is the key to ultimate success and individual contentment. The key to A GOOD LIFE, - in fact.
"UP TOP" that position on the chart obtained at twilight, by sextant and calculation - that was job satisfaction. Reading digits from a GPS display just does not fall into that category at all. Likewise, to take a Charter Party from the drawer of ones desk and scrawl across it the word "ACCOMPLISHED" - That's job satisfaction - in my book.
Rgds,

P.S._ If they are heading for a career at sea, lets make sure they include welding in the training programme - the sooner they are introduced to that, the better, - if they are heading for the large (Wet & Dry) bulkers especially . Thirteen or Fourteen years of age - would be fine, I reckon, - under the guidance of individuals like you. _


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## ART6

Welding definitely! That should always be a part of a marine engineer's training. When I served my apprenticeship it wasn't part of it, but I took on a night school class run by welder foremen from the shipyard, and I was taught to weld (gas and arc) by the best there were. 

Many years later, at the end of my career, I took on a job for a local company to help them out for a year or two, and they used a lot of special lifting equipment that had to be specially made by local fabricators. However, the quality of the work was not good, and I volunteered to make the equipment myself. That took a lot of heavy welding. The completed work had to then be sent off for proof load testing, which took two days.

After a while the equipment started to come back the same day, so I phoned the testing firm to find out why. The explanation was that normally the first day would be spent in testing all the welds before they applied the proof loads. With my products they had stopped bothering to test the welds as they were always fine.

That is real job satisfaction, and I guess similar to that you mention Oldman about using traditional navigation techniques that required skill rather that simply reading a digital display. It also shows that such skills are never lost since I could still weld well enough to satisfy testing firms fifty years after I had learned them, just as I am sure that you could still navigate a ship across the world without a GPS in sight! That should be part of the message to be put over to the young when they first start out.


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## rivet

look up 'Dockland Apprentce' on google it describes a marine engineering apprenticeship during the 1950's in some detail


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## GeeM

Started In 1978 a Hull College witha Pre Cadetship and then progressed to a 4 year Eng cadetship with Turnbull Scott. Every summer holiday was filled with Internships at various shipyards. I remember being taught the quick and dirty method of fitting a tailshaft to a prop boss by dropping the shaft into the boss with a crane. No blueing/ fitting required. This of course was done on the night shift when the Super was not looking. Tyne Dock Engineering If anybody was wondering.


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## cryan

Towards the end of my time in Rosyth Dockyard (about 2 years ago) I was in the company of a few apprentices during our refit period. I worked closely with two male electrical apprentices one who was absolutely uninterested in learning anything unless the supervisor he was following started moaning at him. The supervisor started sending him on long walks to get tools etc and said to me that the lad could barely be trusted to wire a plug and that he would rather send him to the stores as being near him annoyed him so much that he couldn't concentrate on his own work. He was also accompanied by an MoD apprentice who was a fast track for management and in the world of the dockyard wore a white boilersuit but he was only to observe and report never to actually touch anything? The third apprentice I met was a female also a leccy who when she came down to the other tug in our fleet to sort out a shore power problem, absolutely refused to enter the engine room as the genny was running and it was too noisy! This absolutely amazed the other Chief and I had a real go at the supervisor who said she was always like that but that she will pass because she's good at the book work. We commented that at sea that kind of refusal would have resulted in a sore ear whether it was a boy or a girl. Exactly why she got herself a job in a dockyard if she is so adversely affected by noise is still a mystery.
During my time on cruise ships 2000-2003 we had two or three cadets on every trip and in general they were OK. we had a few stand out muppets and one who was ridiculously lazy but most were keen which is always the best start. It was always in our own interest to make sure they made the grade and not just sign off their books as the company more often than not sent them back to a familiar ship when first qualified so you needed to be able to trust them.
I now run a small company ashore and we are thinking of apprentices in the next year and I have to say that current discussions are nervous ones as we are worried that to many kids want instant gratification these days and I want apprentices to respect their work which you cant do if you have not suffered to achieve your grade. I will expect them to start at the bottom and drag themselves up to get their ticket etc and I fear those types of kids might not exist today?


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## oldman 80

cryan said:


> Towards the end of my time in Rosyth Dockyard (about 2 years ago) I was in the company of a few apprentices during our refit period. I worked closely with two male electrical apprentices one who was absolutely uninterested in learning anything unless the supervisor he was following started moaning at him. The supervisor started sending him on long walks to get tools etc and said to me that the lad could barely be trusted to wire a plug and that he would rather send him to the stores as being near him annoyed him so much that he couldn't concentrate on his own work. He was also accompanied by an MoD apprentice who was a fast track for management and in the world of the dockyard wore a white boilersuit but he was only to observe and report never to actually touch anything? The third apprentice I met was a female also a leccy who when she came down to the other tug in our fleet to sort out a shore power problem, absolutely refused to enter the engine room as the genny was running and it was too noisy! This absolutely amazed the other Chief and I had a real go at the supervisor who said she was always like that but that she will pass because she's good at the book work. We commented that at sea that kind of refusal would have resulted in a sore ear whether it was a boy or a girl. Exactly why she got herself a job in a dockyard if she is so adversely affected by noise is still a mystery.
> During my time on cruise ships 2000-2003 we had two or three cadets on every trip and in general they were OK. we had a few stand out muppets and one who was ridiculously lazy but most were keen which is always the best start. It was always in our own interest to make sure they made the grade and not just sign off their books as the company more often than not sent them back to a familiar ship when first qualified so you needed to be able to trust them.
> I now run a small company ashore and we are thinking of apprentices in the next year and I have to say that current discussions are nervous ones as we are worried that to many kids want instant gratification these days and I want apprentices to respect their work which you cant do if you have not suffered to achieve your grade. I will expect them to start at the bottom and drag themselves up to get their ticket etc and I fear those types of kids might not exist today?


 What an excellent posting - well done.
I agree with your sentiment entirely - how the hell can you run ships with the types of attitude you describe.
Best of luck in your venture - but I feel the scenarios you describe are becoming well established in developed countries - hence all the work goes elsewhere.
Too many Yuppies perhaps --- a precident now established.


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## budrover

At Cammell Lairds we have just taken on another 18 apprentices which make the amount of apprentices under training to be 80.

You will be pleased to know that all under take a traditional apprenticeship of 4 years and benefit from 'mentors' to make them 'productive' from an early age, so they dont get sent on 'long waits' or 'bubbles for levels'.

Youth of to-day are not so bad as the press make out !...we have had some top quality trades people come out of their 'time' over the last 5 years.

Not all is lost !!


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## A.D.FROST

budrover said:


> At Cammell Lairds we have just taken on another 18 apprentices which make the amount of apprentices under training to be 80.
> 
> You will be pleased to know that all under take a traditional apprenticeship of 4 years and benefit from 'mentors' to make them 'productive' from an early age, so they dont get sent on 'long waits' or 'bubbles for levels'.
> 
> Youth of to-day are not so bad as the press make out !...we have had some top quality trades people come out of their 'time' over the last 5 years.
> 
> Not all is lost !!


Long may it continue,because there are no jobs at sea to farm them off to,like in my days no job after you served your time because the company hoped you would go to sea.


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## oldman 80

A.D.FROST said:


> Long may it continue,because there are no jobs at sea to farm them off to,like in my days no job after you served your time because the company hoped you would go to sea.


SHIPS ENGINEERS who come from "time served" in the great ship building yards - well you do not get them any better than that.


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## Norm

6 months apprenticeships, that reminds me of the old Government training schemes that turned out tradesmen in 6 months from government training centres. The unions insisted they be paid equal wages to fully skilled men as the employers would hire them in favour of fully skilled men otherwise.

I recently asked a ships engineer if junior engineers still came from shore apprenticeships. No was the answer. His opinion was it would take too long to train them in ship ways, wheras cadets were trained right from the start. I do recall that joining as a junior from a shore side apprenticeship was known as the traditional entry method, but cadetships were called "The Alternative method".


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## ART6

An engineering apprenticeship meant working on a keel on a slipway in the Glasgow winter, when your tool box (and that too!) would freeze to the deck given half a chance. It meant swinging twenty-eight pound sledge hammers and steel wedges to line up a Sultzer main engine crankshaft when the crankcase alone weighted several hundred tons. It meant hours with a dial gauge taking deflections on a generator crank shaft until it was as precise as possible. It meant working in a hull that was nowhere near complete, and when crossing a space meant leaping from one grating support to another with the risk of falling into the bilge.

It meant trying to bolt on a bilge chest when a riveting crew were working nearby and scrambling your brains. It also meant hiding your tea can (made from a Heinz bean can with a welding rod as a handle and stirred by a steel rule) from the charge hand so that you could persuade the nearest burner to heat up a mug of tea with his oxy-torch. If you got discovered you were in deep trouble because tea breaks were not permitted. 

Working in the massive engine shed where the big marine engines were being built, lined with lathes as high as a house machining crankshafts and prop shafts eighteen inches in diameter. Being sent to the forging shop where the drop hammers were slamming white hot steel and making the floor vibrate with their impacts.

When the ship was finally launched and outfitted then she was handed over to the trial crews. That meant working all hours that the new owners demanded with absolutely no facilities. No cabins, no beds. Sleep on the deck by the engine room in a blanket if you had wit enough to bring one. Otherwise go cold.

Then finally, the ship heading out to sea to conquer the world, handed over. And we had built her! The surge of pride -- "Look Lord what your men have achieved!" 

End of the apprenticeship, and the big decision (not really hard). Go to the Shipping Federation and get a grading, find a company. Go to sea. Sign on and start the process of learning all over again. Join a ship and spend days in the engine room learning what every pipe and valve did, what were the peculiarities of every machine. Imagine, on every watch, what could go wrong and how you would deal with it. Realise that all that matters is "The Job". Become the senior watchkeeper and learn how to lead men to do what they would prefer not to do.

This is, without exception, the finest career for any man, because it leads to the conclusion "I am an engineer." I would be happy for that to be engraved on my gravestone!


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## vectiscol

Returning to my previous post #7 in this thread, I was extremely fortunate to have been given the opportunity to experience real, well-taught Technical Drawing and Engineering at school. Despite being in the top stream of a grammar school, I discovered that I had far more affinity and aptitude to those subjects than English Literature, History or Latin. With that encouragement, I have managed to earn a reasonable living from a varied, enjoyable and interesting career in shipping and shipbuilding. All learning is valuable, though. Even the torturous study of Latin eventually proved useful decades later, when I taught myself to speak Italian whilst working in shipyards in Italy.


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## Graham Wallace

rivet said:


> look up 'Dockland Apprentce' on google it describes a marine engineering apprenticeship during the 1950's in some detail


David,

I found it very interesting.

Graham


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## twogrumpy

cryan said:


> Towards the end of my time in Rosyth Dockyard (about 2 years ago) I was in the company of a few apprentices during our refit period. I worked closely with two male electrical apprentices one who was absolutely uninterested in learning anything unless the supervisor he was following started moaning at him. The supervisor started sending him on long walks to get tools etc and said to me that the lad could barely be trusted to wire a plug and that he would rather send him to the stores as being near him annoyed him so much that he couldn't concentrate on his own work. He was also accompanied by an MoD apprentice who was a fast track for management and in the world of the dockyard wore a white boilersuit but he was only to observe and report never to actually touch anything? The third apprentice I met was a female also a leccy who when she came down to the other tug in our fleet to sort out a shore power problem, absolutely refused to enter the engine room as the genny was running and it was too noisy! This absolutely amazed the other Chief and I had a real go at the supervisor who said she was always like that but that she will pass because she's good at the book work. We commented that at sea that kind of refusal would have resulted in a sore ear whether it was a boy or a girl. Exactly why she got herself a job in a dockyard if she is so adversely affected by noise is still a mystery.
> During my time on cruise ships 2000-2003 we had two or three cadets on every trip and in general they were OK. we had a few stand out muppets and one who was ridiculously lazy but most were keen which is always the best start. It was always in our own interest to make sure they made the grade and not just sign off their books as the company more often than not sent them back to a familiar ship when first qualified so you needed to be able to trust them.
> I now run a small company ashore and we are thinking of apprentices in the next year and I have to say that current discussions are nervous ones as we are worried that to many kids want instant gratification these days and I want apprentices to respect their work which you cant do if you have not suffered to achieve your grade. I will expect them to start at the bottom and drag themselves up to get their ticket etc and I fear those types of kids might not exist today?


Does not shed a very good light on the Yoof of today, and clearly the educators or anyone for that matter have have bothered to prepare them for the world of work.

And had I behaved like that in Portsmouth Dockyard(1964) reckon I would have ended up with a thick ear or worse. As for won't go down the pit because of the noise, possibly she could take up hairdressing, clearly she would be more at home there.

2G
(Cloud)


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## Varley

One of my best ETOs was a young lady - not appreciated by senior management.
The only one who set lout as one man short was the young lad who nonchalantly came up from the pit to tell us "one of your pipes is leaking badly" as we were on our way down after hearing the bang. Not really yoofs of today more like yoofs of 1980's.


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## Bill Hardy

Good to read all the comments.My old man used to say"If you do not plant any seeds you do not get a crop!!"


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## ART6

Bumping this thread again I'm afraid, but at my age you do things like that. 

I served my apprenticeship in Barclay Curles North British Engine Works on the Clyde. I was apprenticed to a fitter called Adam Reid. Adam had no degrees, no big titles, no letters after his name. He was just one of the common herd that lined up at the yard gates every morning. But Adam taught me to be an engineer!


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## gordy

Art6, sounds like we're near the same vintage!

My apprenticeship in Fairfields was 5 years, and I would do it all again.

My journeymen would never let the quality of work slip, and even now in retirement I get accused of being a perfectionist in my DIY tasks. I don't claim to be, but just try to do a job properly, as I was taught.

Way back in the '80's offshore, an American writing in a trade magazine advised that the North Sea would experience a shortage of millwrights as they called heavy machinery fitters, due to none being trained.
My own company, Shell started a technician training scheme in the late '80's. Two years in college doing an HND, two years offshore when they decided what 'trade' to follow, mechanical, electrical, or instrumentation. 
I never heard of one choosing mechanical, maybe due to the lack of 'magic' of seeing huge marine engines built, tested and installed.

'Specialists' were often sent out to do machinery repairs. 
I'm not being arrogant when I say I often guided them through the work(Jester)


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## ART6

gordy said:


> Art6, sounds like we're near the same vintage!
> 
> My apprenticeship in Fairfields was 5 years, and I would do it all again.
> 
> My journeymen would never let the quality of work slip, and even now in retirement I get accused of being a perfectionist in my DIY tasks. I don't claim to be, but just try to do a job properly, as I was taught.
> 
> Way back in the '80's offshore, an American writing in a trade magazine advised that the North Sea would experience a shortage of millwrights as they called heavy machinery fitters, due to none being trained.
> My own company, Shell started a technician training scheme in the late '80's. Two years in college doing an HND, two years offshore when they decided what 'trade' to follow, mechanical, electrical, or instrumentation.
> *I never heard of one choosing mechanical, maybe due to the lack of 'magic' of seeing huge marine engines built, tested and installed.
> *
> 'Specialists' were often sent out to do machinery repairs.
> I'm not being arrogant when I say I often guided them through the work(Jester)


That, for me as a young and callow youth, was indeed the magic. Seeing a massive ten-cylinder Sulzer marine engine growing in the erecting shed, and then being part of the installation crew, lining up the 400 tonne crankcase with 28 lb hammers and steel wedges until it was absolutely perfect, then doing the precise measurements so that the steel chocks could be made up and fitted. Going out on the sea trials as part of the trial crew, hearing that massive engine that I had helped in my very small way to create starting up for the first time with a roar and a blast of starting air from the compressors that they put in my charge. Magic indeed!


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## Joe Freeman

Art6, would that 10 cylinder Sulzer engine have been for the Benarmin.


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## ART6

Don't remember now Joe. Too long ago!


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## chadburn

Chocking the main engine was one of those job's that when completed gave great satisfaction, however, getting to that point was one of those job's that you could well do without. Chock's had to be fitted by scraping (on the load bearing surfaces) to get the best fit then the Inspection took place with a set of Feeler's. You were down in the Bowel's of the Engineroom with your little handlamp, scraper and tin of blue, usually on night's when the other Trade's were in their warm Pit's. Doing the job on night's reduced the risk of a clamp, welding rod's or bolt's making you as their target, it was cold, damp and if someone had crapped in the Bilge's very smelly. Ok, it was not as bad as the coal face in Pit or the Trenches but in Winter it was an awful job. There were plus side's which encouraged Fitter's to do the job, if your chock passed inspection you received a bonus payment on each chock, if you completed the required number of chock's you could find a warm place ashore and have a kip leaving you fresh to take the kid's to school (if the Wife was working) or run your daytime business. As an Apprentice I spent a Mid Winter week on night's "Chocking" which convinced me that 12hr night shift's were best left to Prostitute's and Burglar's.


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## marinemec2004

ART6 said:


> According to Process Engineering magazine today the UK government wants to introduce engineering apprenticeship schemes to correct the country's skill shortage. (http://processengineering.theengineer.co.uk/are-uk-apprentices-being-short-changed/1013956.article ). They seem to be under the impression that a skilled tradesman can be created in a 42 week apprenticeship. That comes as news to me! In the shipyard where I served my time the course was a minimum of four years, at the end of which one became a "journeyman", which was considered as a halfway house between being half-trained and becoming fully competent and lasted for two or three years before one was allowed to do anything serious!
> 
> Sadly in my day there were not such far-sighted politicians. If there had been I could have become a skilled engineer at age seventeen
> B\)


Also in your time, there was a surplus of jobs and labour, with fitter's mates and all. Productivity was low . Why do you think we have no more shipbuilding ? Do you seriously believe the shipyards were a great place to work in your era? The shipyards during your time were hotbeds for industrial strife along with car plants , steel works -need I say anymore?.. Its because of your generation that we have no industry left. You guys had it all and threw it all away!


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## ART6

marinemec2004 said:


> Also in your time, there was a surplus of jobs and labour, with fitter's mates and all. Productivity was low . Why do you think we have no more shipbuilding ? Do you seriously believe the shipyards were a great place to work in your era? The shipyards during your time were hotbeds for industrial strife along with car plants , steel works -need I say anymore?.. Its because of your generation that we have no industry left. You guys had it all and threw it all away!


Sure the yards were union controlled to the extent of madness. You couldn't drill a hole in anything because that was the job of a hole-borer. Under no cir***stances, when having fitted a bilge well, could you connect a pipe to it since that was the job of a pipe fitter. The squad charge-hand's exercised the word of God, and the foremen wore lead-lined bowler hats to protect them against the odd chain block dropped from on high. Yes, it was madness. However:

I can recall, as an apprentice with a privileged position, arriving at the yard gates where there was a queue of men waiting for the tallyman to open the gates at 7.30 am and call out how many fitters, boilermakers, shipwrights etc. they needed. The selected men would troop in and be issued with a brass tally that would pay them at the end of the shift. Those who had been previously employed could pass through and collect their tallies. However, if you weren't at the gate when the tallyman opened it, you didn't have a job whoever you were.

Once inside, there were no such luxuries as tea breaks. Each of us had a Heinz bean can with a welding rod handle and a small packet of tea and sugar (no milk -- none of your civilised refinements). We would fill it with water and talk a burner into heating it up with his oxy-torch. Stir it with a steel rule and then sneak away to drink it, in the knowledge that if the squad chargehand found you you were in trouble. If the squad foreman found you you were dead! 

It was permissible to stop for half an hour to eat a sandwich at midday, but there were very strict times of day when that was allowed. Even then, the food had to be eaten on the job. There were no canteens. Be found eating one's sandwich anywhere else than one's designated job could result in being told to go home. 

If you needed to relieve yourself you could do so on the dockside or into the bilges of the ship you were building. Anything else, then there was shack on the quayside with a trough that, if you really had to, you could s**t in at your peril. If you were discovered by the squad foreman on your way to that shack you could be kicked out of the yard. You were expected to s**t in your own time.

The modern concepts of health and safety didn't come into it. You could be installing a main engine into a hull when the only things to walk on were the stringers for the floor plates that would be fitted later. You had to dance about over those angle iron bars like a ballerina, and hope that you didn't fall off into the bilges. In the Glasgow winter you could be frozen on the slipway with inadequate clothing, but that was your problem. You could be called upon to climb out onto the end of the boom of a gantry crane to lubricate the sheaves (I was!). No-one asked me if I had a fear for heights. Get out there or go home!

When we built a ship some of us were selected as trials crews. We slept in passageways where we could. No-one provided us with beds. In fact I suspect, we weren't actually expected to sleep (or even eat since nothing was provided for us). -We lived and slept in grimy overalls and lived on corned beef sandwiches that had a significant curl and aroma by the end of the sea trials.

So now you say that we and our unions destroyed the UK shipbuilding industry? I might suggest that the employers played some part in that too!


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## gordy

You guys had it all and threw it all away!

A common mis- conception. 

Talk to those who were there at the time of the UCS work in, and hear of ships delivered on time, on budget, satisfied owners, no strikes, thieving or vandalism. All because the unions took control.


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## chadburn

There were plenty of order's both for British Shipowner's along with Foreign Shipowner's in the pipeline's until hatchet Thatcher made the agreement with the E.U. (in order to gain EU Grant's) that shut the Shipyard's down.
As far as the Mine's were concerned no matter what people thought of Scargill his prediction's were right about the Government's plan's to close them which resulted in the Strike action some Month's later, the Strike was broken with the help of the Police who broke the Law themselves with some of their action's.
Thatcher was not all bad as there is no doubt we would not have retaken the Falkland's without her hand on the Tiller, a Labour Government would still be talking today about getting them back!


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## WilliamH

marinemec2004 said:


> Also in your time, there was a surplus of jobs and labour, with fitter's mates and all. Productivity was low . Why do you think we have no more shipbuilding ? Do you seriously believe the shipyards were a great place to work in your era? The shipyards during your time were hotbeds for industrial strife along with car plants , steel works -need I say anymore?.. Its because of your generation that we have no industry left. You guys had it all and threw it all away!


I am of the generation that you speak of, I started working in 1955 and retired in 2006. The standard of living rose continually while I was working, so it could be said that my generation rebuilt the country after the 2nd world war. Britian may have lost her traditional heavy industries, but the country has moved on and must continue to do so if the population want their standard of living to keep rising.


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## gordy

And another thing marinemec2004


You mention all the strife in certain industries.

Have you noticed any strife in the UK car plants now?
Have you noticed who owns and manages them now?
Have you noticed they still have unions in them?


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