# Festival of Remembrance



## barney b

What a pleasure at last to see on the Legion Festival of Remembrance a tribute to the Merchant Navy for their service and sacrifice during the war years. Well done all concerned


----------



## alan ward

I laid a wreath today in remembrance of the men,women and boys of the Merchant Navy and Fishing Fleet.Normally our turn comes just after the RAF but this year I thought`They`ve forgotten us` as wreath after wreath was laid,however I was wrong we came in just after The Jesters Scooter Club and the Soroptimists.So next year I don`t think I`ll bother and will lay our wreath later in the day when`the great and the good`have left.


----------



## sidsal

I too was very pleased last night to hear Hugh Edwards tell of the Merchant Navy's efforts in ww2. I have, in last years been very disappointed at the very secondary place given to the MN who, after all suffered a bigger percentage of casualties than any of the theree services.]Very good indded. He pinted out Churchill saying the Battle of the Altantic was tha elongest of the war. It did indeed start on 3rd September and continued until the war ended.


----------



## Basil

> So next year I don`t think I`ll bother and will lay our wreath later in the day when`the great and the good`have left.


Please don't; perhaps next year they'll have taken a lead from this year's Service of Remembrance. Illegitimi non carborundum (Thumb)

Yes, I was pleased to see the MN get a well deserved mention. Many of the people I sailed with in the early sixties must have gone through WW2 but no-one ever mentioned it.

I believe Churchill said that the German effort which really frightened him was the U-Boat threat.



> The Jesters Scooter Club


Reminds me of the humour of a S Yorks friend who, when asked by his flight commander what he was going to do when he left the RAF, replied "Cartwheels, up the A1!"


----------



## Keith Pengelly

alan ward said:


> I laid a wreath today in remembrance of the men,women and boys of the Merchant Navy and Fishing Fleet.Normally our turn comes just after the RAF but this year I thought`They`ve forgotten us` as wreath after wreath was laid,however I was wrong we came in just after The Jesters Scooter Club and the Soroptimists.So next year I don`t think I`ll bother and will lay our wreath later in the day when`the great and the good`have left.


Write to your local branch of the Royal British Legion and complain. Better still, join your local RBL and have your say at their organising commitee meetings. You'll find they are usually very receptive and do not intentionally set out to upset people. Most mistakes are by ignorance of the role the MN played, let's face it who kept everyone fed and armed!


----------



## sidsal

Albert Hall Remembrance Service last night on TV and the service at Bramhall war memorial this morning.
A couple of colleagues who were at sea in ww2 have told me that they were very pleased that Huw Edwards’ commentary last night mentioned the Battle of the Atlantic – the longest battle of the war. It started in the first days with the sinking of the Athenia and continued until the last day of the war. Over 30,000 lives were lost in the Merchant Navy – a higher proportion than any of the three services. It was the one battle that worried Winston Churchill most as defeat would have handed victory to the Germans. In past years the MN has scarcely been mentioned.
Whereas I had a charmed war which was cushy and interesting I remember each year two contemporaries who were not so lucky. One lad from Pen – Idris Thomas, a friend, went to the radio operators’ college at Colwyn Bay and joined a tramp steamer – the Stornest in Swansea and loaded with coal for the USA. He was just 18 years of age. When a few hundred miles west of Ireland the convoy encountered a big storm and the ships scattered and the Stornest came in the sights of a U-boat which torpedoed it. She did not sink and 24 hours later the U-boat sighted her again and sank her. An Irish steamer – the Irish Oak, picked up her distress message and made for her but there was no trace of anything when she got to her position. I researched the sinking some years ago and Sea Breezes published my findings in an article. The U-706 which sank her on October 12th 1942 was on her first patrol under the command of Kapitanlieutnant Alexander von Zitzewitz.
She was herself sunk by an US Liberator in July 1943 and survivors were picked up by HMS Waveney. The Irish Oak was torpedoed in May 1943 but most of her crew survived.
The other lad whom I remember fondly was Harold, again not long left school and a rear gunner in the RAF. Their family pew was just in front of ours in Salem chapel and he was there on a Sunday night when I was also on leave.
On the Monday he rejoined his unit in Lincolnshire and that evening his plane took off to attack the Ruhr laden with bombs. His plane crashed on take-off and blew up, killing all on board.

“I shall remember them “


----------



## ben27

good day barney.m.yesterday,23:03.re:festvale of remembrance.thank you and all menbers for your remembrance to the M.N.and to all who did not come home.may they rest in peace.regards ben27


----------



## Hugh MacLean

sidsal said:


> Whereas I had a charmed war which was cushy and interesting
> “I shall remember them “


Thank you for your service Sidsal, i think you are a very modest man. I doubt anyone serving in the Merchant Navy during WW2 had an easy time.

Regards
Hugh


----------



## Union Jack

*What a pleasure at last to see on the Legion Festival of Remembrance a tribute to the Merchant Navy for their service and sacrifice during the war years. Well done all concerned.*

As someone who has been involved in the celebrations of the Turning of the Battle of the Atlantic in past years I couldn't agree more.(Thumb)(Thumb)

Jack


----------



## jaydeeare

On behalf of all non-seafarers, may I say a big heartfelt 'Thank you." to all who sailed in the MN during all conflicts and peacetime.

Without you, we could not survive.

It is bad enough to fight Nature, but to fight fellow man as well takes real courage.

Again, thank you!

I wear my poppy with pride for ALL who have served in ALL Services.


----------



## Scelerat

I got this year's begging letter and brochure from the RBL a month or so ago, in which it referred only to the "Armed Forces". I rang them and asked about the Merch and was told that the Merch wasn't included as they were civilians, and therefore not part of the "Armed Forces". Not a very impressive response. It was a pity that I missed the reference to the Merch on the programme, as I deliberately didn't watch it. In recent years the whole thing seems to have been hijacked by the establishment and turned into, what appears to me, a glorification of the forces, rather than a commemoration of those who have suffered.


----------



## alan ward

Basil,it`s only a childish sense of humour that keeps me sane that combined with a sense of the ridiculous acquired after many years sailing from and living in Liverpool.
We live in a small town in rural Staffordshire and I wasn`t aware of just how many ex-Merchant Navy personnel live here.As they have become aware that I too am ex MN they have polarised here in my pub and several of them attended the service yesterday so I had to try and explain to them what had occurred and then,all bloody day,put up with increasingly drunken apologies of behalf of the BL from soldiers and RN fellers.this as well as dealing with a pub full of people who we fed and watered free.


----------



## guardlogger

Having served in the RN for over 35 years I have always had a great respect for my MN 'brothers'. We at all times whether in peace or conflict faced a common challenge...........the sea.
"We will remember them"


----------



## Union Jack

*In recent years the whole thing seems to have been hijacked by the establishment and turned into, what appears to me, a glorification of the forces, rather than a commemoration of those who have suffered.*

An interesting point of view, Scelerat, but if you had been able to watch the Festival of Remembrance and/or the Cenotaph programme this year (and perhaps you still could via BBC iPlayer), and seen some of the very personal and touching interviews contained therein (including one with a wartime Second Officer), I would like to feel that you might have formed a somewhat different impression.

Incidentally, does anyone who saw the veterans' march-past in Whitehall happen to know the identity of the very bemedalled four-striper marching with the Merchant Navy Association with a drawn sword or cutlass, just a few minutes into the programme?

Jack


----------



## Scelerat

This is the first time, when at home, that I haven't watched the Remembrance Service from the Cenotaph. It was a deliberate decision. Typical that, for the first time, a Merch person was interviewed!
I did see the tail end of the ceremony in Ely, by accident, it rather reminded me of a Hitler Youth rally.


----------



## Union Jack

*Typical that, for the first time, a Merch person was interviewed!*

My apologies, Scelerat, that I didn't make it clearer that that interview was during the Festival of Remembrance on Saturday evening, at which the gentleman concerned appeared in person.(Thumb)

*I did see the tail end of the ceremony in Ely, by accident, it rather reminded me of a Hitler Youth rally. *

Which reminds me of the ancient joke about the Captain doing rounds who, on entering the Stokers' Messdeck, says to the Leading Hand of the Mess, "My wife would say that this mess smells like a Turkish brothel", whereupon Stokes sniffs and says, "Well, Sir, I'm afraid that I don't have your wife's experience."!(Jester)

Jack


----------



## calvin

it was with great delight to hear the merchant navy mention for there losses and bravery in convoys brought tears to my eyes as my great grandfather was killed on s.s. embassage his name on tower hill one of his sons was torpedoed in atlantic rescued then went on arctic convoys torpedoed again and hospitalised in murmansk but if asked about his time hed say they were lots of brave boys and men that gave there lives he was just lucky


----------



## Scelerat

All put far more eloquently here:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith
and here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...embrance-rituals-make-me-see-red-8927751.html


----------



## Hamish Mackintosh

Some great posts! But when did it 'Realy" end for the MN? I say that as I remember joining my first ship in Goole in 1949, a coaster of1902 vintage, the Blisworth, she was running scrap from Keel and on arrival off the Elbe the pilot coming on board and giving the skipper a lecture about staying within the bounds of the bouyed channel(seems like the skipper had taken a "short cut" around a couple)as that area had not been swept for mines as yet. Made one think! he also said to keep a sharp look out for them, as a few were breaking free, and that as I said was 1949


----------



## Scelerat

Union Jack said:


> *I did see the tail end of the ceremony in Ely, by accident, it rather reminded me of a Hitler Youth rally. *
> 
> Which reminds me of the ancient joke about the Captain doing rounds who, on entering the Stokers' Messdeck, says to the Leading Hand of the Mess, "My wife would say that this mess smells like a Turkish brothel", whereupon Stokes sniffs and says, "Well, Sir, I'm afraid that I don't have your wife's experience."!(Jester)
> 
> Jack


My point being that it appeared more like a parade by kids who didn't really know what was going on, led by people, adults, with their own agenda. I've never seen so many medals being worn! None that I recognised either. Have we become like the American forces with medals being awarded for simply existing? Later that day I had to collect my son from the Station, I couldn't get through Soham, where I live, as the Rozzers had the road blocked, at 1430 or so, and on the way home, able to go through the town centre I saw that there had been another rally, with groups of USAF people wandering around in badly fitting blue uniforms. Of what significance was 1430 on 10/11/2013? 1100 means something, but 1430?


----------



## trotterdotpom

A couple of years ago they banned kids from marching in the ANZAC Day parade in Brisbane. There was hell on about it, but I agreed - it was turning into a circus. Not sure what's happened since then, but I think the kids should watch and hopefully learn, not dance around with flags and get a wrong idea of the meaning of the day.

John T


----------



## Scelerat

trotterdotpom said:


> A couple of years ago they banned kids from marching in the ANZAC Day parade in Brisbane. There was hell on about it, but I agreed - it was turning into a circus. Not sure what's happened since then, but I think the kids should watch and hopefully learn, not dance around with flags and get a wrong idea of the meaning of the day.
> 
> John T


I asked all of my classes yesterday what the poppies were for. Their reply, almost universally, was, "to remember the soldiers that fought in the world wars". For once I had to actually tell them what to think.....


----------



## Satanic Mechanic

Oooh do I join this one or not ......hmmmm


----------



## Basil

> I asked all of my classes yesterday what the poppies were for. Their reply, almost universally, was, "to remember the soldiers that fought in the world wars". For once I had to actually tell them what to think.....


I'm at a loss to understand ???


----------



## Varley

Basil said:


> I'm at a loss to understand ???


So am I (I hope).


----------



## sidsal

"Breathes there a man with soul so dead
Who never to himself has said
This is my own, my native land"
I don't know whether I detect a hint of cynicism in one or two of the posts. If I am right - shame on you !
Anyone who was not moved by the Remeberance Service with our Great Queen has a heart of stone !


----------



## lesbryan

I was very suprised to see the fstival of rememberance was more miltary ie no display teams etc than it has for a long while


----------



## Binnacle

Scelerat said:


> I got this year's begging letter and brochure from the RBL a month or so ago, in which it referred only to the "Armed Forces". I rang them and asked about the Merch and was told that the Merch wasn't included as they were civilians, and therefore not part of the "Armed Forces". Not a very impressive response. .


Sorry Scelerat, but the RBL were perfectly correct, merchant seamen according to Section XI, Article 6 of the 1907 Hague Convention were civilian non combatants. Germany was forced under the Convention to keep merchant seamen in Internment Camps as they were not classed as POWs. (Although the unfortunate internees would have difficulty to determine the difference.) Merchant Seamen under the National Service Acts were deferred from conscription into the Armed Forces, which would indicate their civilian status.


----------



## Scelerat

Binnacle said:


> Sorry Scelerat, but the RBL were perfectly correct, merchant seamen according to Section XI, Article 6 of the 1907 Hague Convention were civilian non combatants. Germany was forced under the Convention to keep merchant seamen in Internment Camps as they were not classed as POWs. (Although the unfortunate internees would have difficulty to determine the difference.) Merchant Seamen under the National Service Acts were deferred from conscription into the Armed Forces, which would indicate their civilian status.


Therefore, correct me if I'm wrong here, although Merchant Seamen were involved in conflict, they, as civilians, don't deserve to be remembered, so they are no concern of the RBL. Is this correct?


----------



## Scelerat

sidsal said:


> I don't know whether I detect a hint of cynicism in one or two of the posts. If I am right - shame on you !
> Anyone who was not moved by the Remeberance Service with our Great Queen has a heart of stone !


Shame on those who find the Remembrance show embarrassing? Why? Because I haven't bought into the "glorification of our conflicts" agenda being foisted on us by our governments of the past 11 years? Shame on them for debasing "Remembrance" by using it for their own political purposes.


----------



## Scelerat

Basil said:


> I'm at a loss to understand ???


Understand what?


----------



## Binnacle

Scelerat said:


> Therefore, correct me if I'm wrong here, although Merchant Seamen were involved in conflict, they, as civilians, don't deserve to be remembered, so they are no concern of the RBL. Is this correct?


THE Royal British Legion was formed in 1921 as a charity providing financial, social and emotional support to members of the British *ARMED FORCES*, veterans and their dependents. 

Those who mourn the British war dead, including British Legion members, remember all, including civilians.
This report listed the war deaths of 357,116; Navy (50,758); Army (144,079); Air Force (69,606); Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service (624); Merchant Navy (30,248); British Home Guard ( 1,206) and Civilians (60,595). The total still missing on 2/28/1946 was 6,244; Navy (340); Army (2,267); Air Force (3,089); Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service (18); Merchant Navy (530); British Home Guard (0) and Civilians (0). 
These figures included the losses of Newfoundland and Southern Rhodesia.


----------



## ericfisher

My Royal Canadian Legion Branch is very thankful for my small contribution of time for the poppy fund and welcome me and a few other ex M.N. for attending and supporting their efforts at the Cenotaph in Oshawa Ont last Monday.

After leaving the M.N. in 1945 I was soon called up to the army and served with The Royal Artillery from '46-'48. No regrets and for the umpteenth time, I am REALLY only one of the lucky ones, NOT a hero.

Thanks again, all those who keep this site alive and help for those less fortunate.

Cheers, Eric


----------



## Basil

> Quote:
> I asked all of my classes yesterday what the poppies were for. Their reply, almost universally, was, "to remember the soldiers that fought in the world wars". For once I had to actually tell them what to think.....
> I'm at a loss to understand ???





> Understand what?


Why you had to tell your students what to think.


----------



## Scelerat

Basil said:


> Why you had to tell your students what to think.


So that they would realise that "Remembrance" is for all people who died or suffered in wartime, not just those who were soldiers.


----------



## alan ward

Our local RBL is open to anyone,ex services are not,and has to be so to survive.Sometimes the attitude of the older members is a little conservative but with a growing acceptance that every family in Britain has been touched or influenced by every modern conflict the RBL has moderated its former intransigence.


----------



## R396040

" WE WILL REMEMBER THEM"



Surely that says it all ?

Stuart H


----------



## Klaatu83

In this country 11/11/11 is always observed with memorial services dedicated to veterans of the military services, but no mention is ever made of Merchant Seamen at all. It used to be called "Armistice Day" but was officially changed to "Veterans Day" in 1954. I presume that the reason Merchant Seamen are not considered worthy of mention is because they are officially regarded as civilians, and thus not qualified to be included among veterans.


----------



## Eddie Wallace

can I just say the total number of men and woman of the MN who have no known grave but the sea is forty three thousand not thirty thousand ,there are many more that can't be accounted for.But it was nice for the MN to be 
mentioned at the Albert Hall.

When you go home,tell them of us and,say for your tomorrow we gave our today


----------



## Basil

> So that they would realise that "Remembrance" is for all people who died or suffered in wartime, not just those who were soldiers.


Ah, yes, agreed.


----------



## Binnacle

Eddie Wallace said:


> can I just say the total number of men and woman of the MN who have no known grave but the sea is forty three thousand not thirty thousand ,there are many more that can't be accounted for.


Eddie, can you please give us a source for this 43,000 figure ?


----------



## Erimus

Thought this might be a closure comment?


A POEM WORTH READING

He was getting old and paunchy
And his hair was falling fast,
And he sat around the Legion,
Telling stories of the past., 
Of a war that he once fought in
And the deeds that he had done,
In his exploits with his buddies;
They were heroes, every one.

And 'tho sometimes to his neighbors
His tales became a joke,
All his buddies listened quietly
For they knew where of he spoke.

But we'll hear his tales no longer,
For ol' Joe has passed away,
And the world's a little poorer
For a Veteran died today.

He won't be mourned by many,
Just his children and his wife.
For he lived an ordinary,
Very quiet sort of life.

He held a job and raised a family,
Going quietly on his way;
And the world won't note his passing,
'Tho a Veteran died today.

When politicians leave this earth,
Their bodies lie in state,
While thousands note their passing,
And proclaim that they were great.

Papers tell of their life stories
From the time that they were young,
But the passing of a Veteran
Goes unnoticed, and unsung.

Is the greatest contribution
To the welfare of our land,
Some jerk who breaks his promise
And cons his fellow man?

Or the ordinary fellow
Who in times of war and strife,
Goes off to serve his country
And offers up his life?

The politician's stipend
And the style in which he lives,
Are often disproportionate,
To the service that he gives.

While the ordinary Veteran,
Who offered up his all,
Is paid off with a medal
And perhaps a pension, small.

It is not the politicians
With their compromise and ploys,
Who won for us the freedom
That our country now enjoys.

Should you find yourself in danger,
With your enemies at hand,
Would you really want some cop-out,
With his ever-waffling stand?

Or would you want a Veteran
His home, his country, his kin,
Just a common Veteran,
Who would fight until the end.

He was just a common Veteran,
And his ranks are growing thin,
But his presence should remind us
We may need his likes again.
For when countries are in conflict,
We find the Veteran's part,
Is to clean up all the troubles
That the politicians start.

If we cannot do him honor
While he's here to hear the praise,
Then at least let's give him homage
At the ending of his days.

Perhaps just a simple headline
In the paper that might say:
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING,
A VETERAN DIED TODAY."
Author 'Unknown' 

PLEASE pass On The Patriotism! YOU can make a difference.
If you are proud of our Vets, then send this to them. You'll be glad you did.
Then send it to ALL your friends.


geoff


----------



## Barrie Youde

#42

May it stand as a reminder, rather than as a closure!

Many thanks, Erimus,

BY


----------



## Scelerat

Erimus, I'm afraid that the American poem that you've posted is an example of the kind of mawkish stuff that I find so distasteful. Not the sentiment of the poem, but the "_PLEASE pass On The Patriotism! YOU can make a difference.
If you are proud of our Vets, then send this to them. You'll be glad you did.
Then send it to ALL your friends_." at the end, which turns the whole thing into a "patriotic duty", not a personal response. My late father served in the RAF, my late mother served in the Land Army, her brothers served in the RN, my father's cousins and uncles served in the Merch. None of them viewed themselves as "veterans", and certainly none of them banged on about the debt of gratitude that we were supposed to owe them. They had more dignity than that.


----------



## Erimus

Perhaps American, I got it from Oz. 

geoff


----------



## Scelerat

Erimus said:


> Perhaps American, I got it from Oz.
> 
> geoff


Yes. My cousins in NZ occasionally send me that kind of stuff, usually about friendship or something. Always mawkish and sentimental with an instruction attached.


----------



## Binnacle

Scelerat said:


> Shame on those who find the Remembrance show embarrassing?
> 
> Unfortunately and sadly, I think your use of the term "show" is perhaps appropriate. I don't find it embarrassing, just rather different to the Armistice Day mourning I experienced in my youth. Before the days of TV and programme producers.


----------



## Scelerat

Exactly, "Remembrance" has been hijacked by the "Media" and politicians. The politicians to further their own political agenda, using "remembrance" to glorify the armed forces and to bolster "patriotism". The "Media" to show how clever they are, yet showing instead how shallow and superficial they are. The Thames procession http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Diamond_Jubilee_Pageant, as shown by the BBC was a good example of the triumph of "Media" over event.


----------

