# Hydrometer



## Julian Calvin

Is this still used?
Usually the cadets job to get bucket of water to measure the specific gravity after draft has been read.
In certain ports some pretty disgusting stuff was sampled.
Somehow doubt if this is still done but am I wrong?


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## John Cassels

I would think it still done , how else to check SG ?.


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## captainconfusion

intriguing ??? question for the educated? In the days of ships insurance, overloading. plimsol line, and draught marks? I just wonder how the modern ships computer programmes, remote/automatic draft readings are recorded, for any of the fateful events, where the ships or cargo insurance are activated to settle the claim or, any claim of overloading?? Or does one go back to the written word and that deck/cargo log book. Quiet a bit for an up and coming potential deck office/master/captain to learn??? Or are we all digital with the main records in the ships management offices [ via the modern net/web?], and a duplex copy kept aboard the ship??? Step up mr. Robert Louis Stevenson, and Long John Silver, you have many an update to add to your memoirs and yarns!!!


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## P.Arnold

On an OBS ship under way, I recall a first tripper cadet being requested by the 2/O to get the water sample for temperature measurement, using the dedicated 'bucket'. 
The cadet not being aware of said bucket found a 5 gallon bucket with a heaving line attached. 
The bucket went over the wall as did nearly the cadet. Burnt hands and a missing bucket was the consequence.


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## lakercapt

The use of a hydrometer was essential when we did draft surveys. I recall one port in Mexico where we took samples of the water at several depths as the salinity varied quite considerably.


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## John Cassels

lakercapt said:


> The use of a hydrometer was essential when we did draft surveys. I recall one port in Mexico where we took samples of the water at several depths as the salinity varied quite considerably.


And with temperature Bill .


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## Julian Calvin

Agree with above posts but still ask if anyone knows if checks are made nowadays or all calculated by stability computer?


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## makko

All loading info by the computer/auto ballast. Alerts for changing conditions. However, the ChOff still has to sign off on the draught form, informing F/M/A readings, SG etc. While the basis is the load computer programme, they still have to verify the readings. Rememebr the first ER auto systems, always doing the physical log to check the "sensors"! Still a very good idea. 

From experience, I expect Swire Co. ships to still also perform it the "old way". Their crews tend to "keep their hands in", taking sun/star sights etc. So, it all depends on company, I suppose.

Regarding Mexico, most ports are in the tropics, the ports built on rivers and, on the Pacific coast, they are very close to the continental shelf/Cocos fault line. Very deep water and no need to dredge, generally. As Lakercapt says, it is prudent to check at various depths as, also, currents from the deep ocean can be much cooler.

Flying into Lazaro Cardenas, it is impressive to see the boundary of FW/SW in the Petacalco Bay. The Balsas River separates into two branches: The left (or N) goes through the (very deep) port. The right (S) meanders through to the sea at Petacalco.

Interesting discussion!

Rgds.
Dave


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## John Cassels

Julian Calvin said:


> Agree with above posts but still ask if anyone knows if checks are made nowadays or all calculated by stability computer?


Most probably done by computer but one will still have to input information like SG , temp etc. No computer can tell you 
these readings.


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## Julian Calvin

Used to regularly perform draft surveys on bulkers importing 30k tons bulk salt into Lagos.
salt discharged into old Baco barges.
Strangely, was never told what tonnage was received at final discharge point.


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## Stephen J. Card

Back about 1990 the Research Vessel WEATERBIRD was going offshore Bermuda to do their monthly 'samples' or salinity and temperature etc down to about 1,400m The regular skipper was off on holiday and I was asked to take vessel offshore for a day, ujst for insurance purposes. Myself, engineer, seaman and six scientists.  Several miles off we left drifting in the swells. In addition to salinity and temps there were tests when the ship EASTERN MARINER sank in 1981 with a cargo of chemicals. John would better know this vessel as Denholm's BROOMPARK. Anyhow, after eight hours of watching this I came that I could NEVER sail in a research vessel. I would rather a bucket of dock water and hydrometer!

EASTERN MARINER minutes before sinking off Bermuda in 1981. Lost a plate on the side of the hull in heavy weather. The design was definitely no good. Her tween decks went the length of the ship. Bulkheads, but not watertight (Suez rules) When she started the No. 3 hold she was flooded throughout. Got her into Bermuda. Pump were put on board and she was floating. Then the problem with the chemicals were being pumped overboard. Disaster so she was towed offshore and was allowed to sink in deepwater. For this reason the water samples have been taken since ever.

Stephen


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## makko

For what its worth for the Deck Dept. .............


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## Norm

I don't know, but.......engine room sw intakes could have a sample point . Modern instrumentation can measure sg continually. Read outs can be on bridge and er control room.

When I worked for Dobbie McInnes formerly of Broomloan Road, Govan, Glasgow, makers of Teledep tank gauging, and Teletrol vave control systems, we had a method of measuring the draft drawn by means of a pipe to the bottom of the ships hull and open at the end. The head of water could be measured by the back pressure of air required to keep it out of the tube, and hence the draft ... Just saying..if anybody is interested.


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## Norm

Changed my mind but can't delete.


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## Pilot mac

This thread reminds me of draft surveys and hoodwinking various surveyors around the world. Taking the SG of ballast water was a pain if you got an awkward surveyor. On taking the draft, did we use' Mean of the Means' or 'double means' or even 'triple means'?


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## 411353

Pilot mac said:


> This thread reminds me of draft surveys and hoodwinking various surveyors around the world. Taking the SG of ballast water was a pain if you got an awkward surveyor. On taking the draft, did we use' Mean of the Means' or 'double means' or even 'triple means'?


Mean of the mean of the means was used in my days.


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## Pilot mac

Draft surveys could be a pain, sometimes taking hours with multiple surveyors. One sticks in my mind, one of the surveyors asked 'how much ballast do you have left Chief?', I replied 'none', he smirked and said he didn't believe me.
With that he wanted to witness a full set of soundings. Soundings taken in his presence and all tanks dry. He was taken aback and reluctantly accepted that we had no ballast aboard. He wasn't as smart as he thought, If he had bothered to check the tank sounding tables he would have discovered that two of the tanks still contained 120 tonnes of ballast even with a dry sounding. Freight paid on uplift so I made 240 tonnes of freight for the owners that day!


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## lakercapt

Yes, draft surveys were a bit of tomfoolery as I don't care what is said it is not possible to read draft marks accurately and after that, it was playing with numbers. Guess it kept some people happy.
I recall one awkward surveyor who did not believe our ballast tanks were empty and I challenged him on that and asked which tank he thought contained ballast. Got the crew to open it up and offered him to inspect it. This ship I knew drained the ballast tanks using the ventury system latterly.


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## John Cassels

Did quite a few on-hire surveys and came across lots of tricks like the bottom 6" cropped off sounding pipes with a few
extra striking plates welded underneath , ballast ring mains flooded before survey and mt.afterwards.


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## Pilot mac

John Cassels said:


> Did quite a few on-hire surveys and came across lots of tricks like the bottom 6" cropped off sounding pipes with a few
> extra striking plates welded underneath , ballast ring mains flooded before survey and mt.afterwards.


To try and deceive others into thinking you had more cargo aboard I guess is fraud but it was all part of the game that was draft surveys. I cant ever remember anybody getting grief over it, however plenty of Mates got grief for not uplifting enough cargo. Other grey areas rarely checked by draft surveyors, swimming pool, chain locker, duct keel.


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## Varley

Also the water interface. I remember Neil Mackinnon telling us of hsi ploy with the cargo receivers at Eilat. Stonehaven had a duct keel from which the cargo pumps would 'draw' via valves either side from the cargo tanks. He would strip the water from under the cargos on one side of the tank into the other, the duct itself preventing it from flowing back again. This deceived those using water-finding paste (perhaps, later handy Whessoes?) when surveyor steered to sound/dip the 'right' side.


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## 411353

Pilot mac said:


> To try and deceive others into thinking you had more cargo aboard I guess is fraud but it was all part of the game that was draft surveys. I cant ever remember anybody getting grief over it, however plenty of Mates got grief for not uplifting enough cargo. Other grey areas rarely checked by draft surveyors, swimming pool, chain locker, duct keel.


_"Other grey areas rarely checked by draft surveyors."_
As I recall a proper draft survey included an initial survey and a final survey. At the initial draft survey these areas would have become a part of K - the ships "constant" - on that occassion. That's what the initial survey was all about - determining the "Constant" at that time. Builders constants were not used where proper draft surveys were done.


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## 411353

Varley said:


> Also the water interface. I remember Neil Mackinnon telling us of hsi ploy with the cargo receivers at Eilat. Stonehaven had a duct keel from which the cargo pumps would 'draw' via valves either side from the cargo tanks. He would strip the water from under the cargos on one side of the tank into the other, the duct itself preventing it from flowing back again. This deceived those using water-finding paste (perhaps, later handy Whessoes?) when surveyor steered to sound/dip the 'right' side.


I seem to recall "Stonehaven" was a Tanker, but I stand to be corrected.?
Never sailed on her myself.


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## Geordieroy

Julian Calvin said:


> Is this still used?
> Usually the cadets job to get bucket of water to measure the specific gravity after draft has been read.
> In certain ports some pretty disgusting stuff was sampled.
> Somehow doubt if this is still done but am I wrong?


On my first trip as Cadet on a tanker, Isle of Grain in 61, the C/O told me to get him a bucket of water and bring it to the office.
I stood and watched him whirl the hydrometer in it looking puzzled. When he asked me where I got the water from I replied " the shower sir" at which he proceeded to throw the whole bucketful over me. Only one of many faux pas' over the next few years but I survived.


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## MMYuen

Julian Calvin said:


> Is this still used?
> Usually the cadets job to get bucket of water to measure the specific gravity after draft has been read.
> In certain ports some pretty disgusting stuff was sampled.
> Somehow doubt if this is still done but am I wrong?


Yes. I worked on a cruise ship until mid 2000 where we were in and out of port almost daily. Once a week as C/O I would check SG/draft readings and compare them with the automation/computer (NAPA) readings on the bridge. I don't know if this is still done today. I would hope so.


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## captainconfusion

with all these stores, any one check the sg of the free issue rum after tank diving, or did all of it go down the hatch.????.


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## John Cassels

Varley said:


> Also the water interface. I remember Neil Mackinnon telling us of hsi ploy with the cargo receivers at Eilat. Stonehaven had a duct keel from which the cargo pumps would 'draw' via valves either side from the cargo tanks. He would strip the water from under the cargos on one side of the tank into the other, the duct itself preventing it from flowing back again. This deceived those using water-finding paste (perhaps, later handy Whessoes?) when surveyor steered to sound/dip the 'right' side.


David , think I sailed with Neil on The Naess Pioneer 1969. He was 2nd.mate , I was 3rd.mate. Master Willie MacAuslane.
Did he not pass away at a very young age ?.


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## Varley

John, Yes he did. Not sure exactly when but when I came back to DSM vessels after three years on Stonehaven then back to school followed by Texaco, Texaco and Conoco I 'phoned, only to find a distressed wife. Decent chap, guitar player (can't have everything). David V


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## Grizzpig

lakercapt said:


> The use of a hydrometer was essential when we did draft surveys. I recall one port in Mexico where we took samples of the water at several depths as the salinity varied quite considerably.


I still use a hydrometer today, but only for wine making ! Much better ! !


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## taffe65

Grizzpig said:


> I still use a hydrometer today, but only for wine making ! Much better ! !


Annual check of car coolant water and that's it.


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## lakercapt

Grizzpig said:


> I still use a hydrometer today, but only for winemaking ! Much better ! !


Yes I do too and it is the old true indication the fermentation has completed


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## taffe65

Grizzpig said:


> I still use a hydrometer today, but only for wine making ! Much better ! !


How potent is this chateau de Grizz then, are we talking horizontal after 1 bottle 🍇🍷.


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## lakercapt

taffe65 said:


> How potent is this chateau de Grizz then, are we talking horizontal after 1 bottle 🍇🍷.


If you "capitalize" the must by adding sugar slowly over a few days when the fermentation is slowing, you can get the alcohol up to about 13% I used to have a business making wine and learnt a few tricks which helped me win competitions for my wines.


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## 216289

Julian Calvin said:


> Is this still used?
> Usually the cadets job to get bucket of water to measure the specific gravity after draft has been read.
> In certain ports some pretty disgusting stuff was sampled.
> Somehow doubt if this is still done but am I wrong?


In certain ports some pretty disgusting stuff was sampled.

As *Alexandria* *Egypt* – engineers aboard the Dolly Turman failed to take shore water and during the night cracked harbor sludge. Ship smelled like a ****hole. The look on the passengers face was priceless. Lykes Brothers – what a company.


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## 216289

Geordieroy said:


> On my first trip as Cadet on a tanker, Isle of Grain in 61, the C/O told me to get him a bucket of water and bring it to the office.
> I stood and watched him whirl the hydrometer in it looking puzzled. When he asked me where I got the water from I replied " the shower sir" at which he proceeded to throw the whole bucketful over me. Only one of many faux pas' over the next few years but I survived.


" the shower sir" chuckles +. Navy days,
Bosun would tell the newbie to go to the engine room and get him a buck of steam. At sea it was to assign newbie the mail buoy watch.


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## 411353

captainconfusion said:


> with all these stores, any one check the sg of the free issue rum after tank diving, or did all of it go down the hatch.????.


 Personally, I much preferred the "density" myself. (@15C as opposed to 60F) ?


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## 411353

John Cassels said:


> Did quite a few on-hire surveys and came across lots of tricks like the bottom 6" cropped off sounding pipes with a few
> extra striking plates welded underneath , ballast ring mains flooded before survey and mt.afterwards.


 ( Quote) "_lots of tricks like the bottom 6" cropped off sounding pipes with a few
extra striking plates welded underneath" (unquote)
*NO NO NO*. _That is a *seriously misleading if not malicious* statement.
See attached sketch:- (Classification Society Approved repair for ageing/damaged striking plates. (.pdf/.jpg)


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## John Cassels

In your desire to rubbish everything I say , you drop yourself in it by quoting the " NB ". If you make use of the extra
striking plates method then you don't advertise it , do you !.


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## 411353

you're talking crap J.C.


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## Varley

Indeed John, If a 'gentleman' kept a wardrobe of ladies' clothes and a handbag or two for his own enjoyment that, too, would go without advertisement, most likely. (However Nash did state Class Approved and they would have to say that, wouldn't they?).

Don't think I am culturally asleep either, it's just that Mother's dresses no longer fit me. It's arsseholes that I am prejudiced against..


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## 411353

Ref:- Post #37.
In order there be no confusion it should be noted that the classification society approved repair *includes the classification societies stamp of approval on the tank calibration tables* on completion of the repair described.
It is likely that in due course a complete set of new (amended) tank calibration tables would be printed, incorporating the approved correction.
This posting should clarify the situation, and hopefully make it clear that the classification societies, shipowners, surveyors etc., etc., are not be implicated in the suggestion made by J.C. that they are willfully associated with deliberate cargo fraud.


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## 411353

Varley said:


> Indeed John, If a 'gentleman' kept a wardrobe of ladies' clothes and a handbag or two for his own enjoyment that, too, would go without advertisement, most likely. (However Nash did state Class Approved and they would have to say that, wouldn't they?).
> 
> Don't think I am culturally asleep either, it's just that Mother's dresses no longer fit me. It's arsseholes that I am prejudiced against..


Varley - you clearly have a problem with your mental health. Get a life - you appear to be addicted to this site, - a site "gossip" - perhaps ?


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## Julian Calvin

As the initiator of this thread, I have followed the replies with interest. Re #41, do not believe that JC made any suggestion that Class were involved with any odd shenanigans.
Personally conducted many draft surveys and generally found crews very helpful but occasionally assistance was questionable and required close attention.


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## 411353

Julian Calvin said:


> As the initiator of this thread, I have followed the replies with interest. Re #41, do not believe that JC made any suggestion that Class were involved with any odd shenanigans.
> Personally conducted many draft surveys and generally found crews very helpful but occasionally assistance was questionable and required close attention.





Julian Calvin said:


> As the initiator of this thread, I have followed the replies with interest. Re #41, do not believe that JC made any suggestion that Class were involved with any odd shenanigans.
> Personally conducted many draft surveys and generally found crews very helpful but occasionally assistance was questionable and required close attention.


Draft Surveys :- Me too - Julian.
Your interpretation of J.C.'s comments clearly differ from mine.
Crews helpful - Yes I agree entirely, as I do with the questionable/close attention bit. Sometimes they quite simply did not know why significant discrepancies became apparent, particularly in the case of vessels well past their use by date/badly maintained etc etc..


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## jmcg

Ex Master of GUEP

You come across as a cantankerous and unpleasant creature as indeed you were under your old guise.
J

.


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## 411353

jmcg said:


> Ex Master of GUEP
> 
> You come across as a cantankerous and unpleasant creature as indeed you were under your old guise.
> J
> 
> .


Could say the same about you (old guise ???)
Are you a fascist or racist ?
But I do like the steam roller - it's a clue - I think.


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## Varley

Gossip? More a witness many times and never more than once removed. Why don't you leave again and enjoy your retirement as you have denied at least one decent chap his. Better still, stand not upon our order for your going, but GO.

(Apologies to the Bard, and even to that Lady)..


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## 411353

Varley said:


> Gossip? More a witness many times and never more than once removed. Why don't you leave again and enjoy your retirement as you have denied at least one decent chap his. Better still, stand not upon our order for your going, but GO.
> 
> (Apologies to the Bard, and even to that Lady)..


You sure have a problem Varley - Are you taking your pills ?
In the interim, may I suggest you utilize the "ignore" me button available on this site 
I feel it would be in your best interest if you did.
Clearly I upset you, and that's not good for your health.
To my knowledge we have never met , and personally I hope it remains that way, as I am feel sure that it will.
Better still perhaps YOU GO.
.
-


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## John Cassels

No Gnash , you are the one that should go. You cannot even understand the import of a post . Go away in jerky
movements . You are a waste of time and space.


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## 411353

John Cassels said:


> No Gnash , you are the one that should go. You cannot even understand the import of a post . Go away in jerky
> movements . You are a waste of time and space.


Ha Ha Ha very funny - you seem to be getting upset again. Silly man. You too should use the ignore button available on this newish website, it might reduce your blood pressure a bit. We don't want any heart attacks attributable to SN. Do we?🎈


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## Varley

To retire or hide behind 'ignore' is to do nothing, or not to do good anyway. That is not the sort of member that SN needs. I am of the mind of John Stuart Mill:

“Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject"

I have never, I hope, destroyed anyone's career, possibly life and I don't wish that even of Capt Nash However, If he wants to stay, supported by those of equally disreputable heart, let no one be deluded as to the viper SN is harbouring in her bosom. And if the memory should fade from the community I will do my best to refresh it, as many times as are necessary.


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## lakercapt

4113 53 As a new member with this identification I suggest you temper the comments made about long term members. We have had a few obnoxious and irrelevant members and thankfully they disappear and the site returns to members who have interesting posts and opinions.. Courtesy is the norm and as you show my countries flag please do not disrespect it.


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## Engine Serang 2

What an eye opener. Visited SN today and found it to be as acidic as SH. Must tootle off now as I don't want to be a clown on two Websites.


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## Varley

Be not afraid E-S. the litmus is only red when dipped in the mendacious drivel of one particular ex-DSM master.


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## jmcg

Has* Ex Master of GUEP *now morphed into *411353?*

Matter for Admin ?.

BW
J


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## Varley

I am afraid so. Seems strange that ID can be edited like that. Looks as if 'Join date' remains. Good enough clue if demeanour itself were not enough.


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## 411353

lakercapt said:


> The use of a hydrometer was essential when we did draft surveys. I recall one port in Mexico where we took samples of the water at several depths as the salinity varied quite considerably.


*Good Lord Lakercapt!!!* Did you really only do that at one port ? I think not.!!!
Unless of course you were one of those lazy, bone idle draft surveyors, of which there were a few. When I was draft surveying, sampling at at least 3 different depths was standard practice. Density/SG variations with depth were more than just usual in most of the ports in which I performed draft surveys.
The Density/SG used for the final calculations was of course the average of the findings as measured. (corrected for temperatures if required)
Were you by any chance engaged by Canadian Sea Transport (CAST) ?
Seemingly a pretty gullible lot.
A convenient dumping ground for "past their use by date" O.B.O. 's .
They sure must have learned their lessons the hard way - I suspect.


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## 411353

Norm said:


> I don't know, but.......engine room sw intakes could have a sample point . Modern instrumentation can measure sg continually. Read outs can be on bridge and er control room.
> 
> When I worked for Dobbie McInnes formerly of Broomloan Road, Govan, Glasgow, makers of Teledep tank gauging, and Teletrol vave control systems, we had a method of measuring the draft drawn by means of a pipe to the bottom of the ships hull and open at the end. The head of water could be measured by the back pressure of air required to keep it out of the tube, and hence the draft ... Just saying..if anybody is interested.


Yes Norm - that system was extensively used in many vessels I served in, not only for draft measurement but also for cargo measurement (ullages etc) in liquid bulkers. No substitute whatsoever for manual /visual observations though, but a good indication only. A similar system was used for measuring pressures "before and after" turbocharger grids in the engine room, but it was pneumatic as opposed to hydrostatic.


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## 411353

jmcg said:


> Has* Ex Master of GUEP *now morphed into *411353?*
> 
> Matter for Admin ?.
> 
> BW
> J


You clearly are very observant. Well done.


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## 411353

Norm said:


> Changed my mind but can't delete.


Why change your mind Norm ? 
It was a perfectly relevant post. A good one too I believe.


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## nauticalstyle

I would like to learn more about this topic, i.e. the measurement of the SG of sea water and the reasons for doing so at sea or port. Does anyone have a photo of the type of marine hydrometer discussed herein? How are they different from the type that are used to measure alcohol content, e.g. for customs excise purposes?
I had one some time ago, but given the scale markings (see images), I could not identify what it was used for:


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## 411353

jmcg said:


> Ex Master of GUEP
> 
> You come across as a cantankerous and unpleasant creature as indeed you were under your old guise.
> J
> 
> .


Have you ever considered how you come across as do the others in your toxic gang ?


nauticalstyle said:


> I would like to learn more about this topic, i.e. the measurement of the SG of sea water and the reasons for doing so at sea or port. Does anyone have a photo of the type of marine hydrometer discussed herein? How are they different from the type that are used to measure alcohol content, e.g. for customs excise purposes?
> I had one some time ago, but given the scale markings (see images), I could not identify what it was used for:
> 
> View attachment 690845
> View attachment 690846
> View attachment 690847


Wow ! ! I am no antique expert but it seems to me that what you have there was probably manufactured in the 1950's. A true piece of memorabilia. Can you enlarge the image by any chance - particularly the case that it is stored in ?
In those days that would have been described as a load line hydrometer or words to that effect, and considering the size of vessels in those days would have been perfectly satisfactory for it's intended purpose of use.
For example :- How much can I submerge the relevant loadline when the water at the loading berth is Fresh Water or somewhere between Fresh Water and Sea Water ( SG 1.00 or SG 1.025 respectively). In determining the depth to which the relevant loadline could be submerged, you could be sure that on proceeding from the loading berth into sea water, the ship would "Rise up" (if you like) by the predetermined amount, and on reaching sea water (the ocean) the vessel would be floating at the level of the appropriate load line - depending on where the vessel was going and which season of the year the voyage was to take place.
However when ships became larger and reached into the several Hundreds of Thousands of deadweight range, that particular instrument was no longer considered accurate enough for the purposes of draft surveying. A much more " refined " instrument became required to acheive the accuracies required where hundreds of thousands of tonnes of cargo are being loaded. (and of course - discharged)


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## 411353

Varley said:


> Gossip? More a witness many times and never more than once removed. Why don't you leave again and enjoy your retirement as you have denied at least one decent chap his. Better still, stand not upon our order for your going, but GO.
> 
> (Apologies to the Bard, and even to that Lady)..


"_Why don't you leave again and enjoy your retirement as you have denied at least one decent chap his._"
Unquote.
That is utter bull**** Varley.
No one person, (either myself or Oldman 80 or anyone else for that matter) could possibly do that in DSM (U.K.) They quite simply did not work that way.
The only way anyone's retirement (or career for that matter) could be destroyed was by a meeting of the Board of Directors and the involvement of the Merchant Navy Disciplinary Board. 
However as an R/O and subsequently an office employee of that company you would in all probability have been totally oblivious to that fact.
If what you say is true then the decision of those bodies must have been the decision that destroyed his retirement - not the decision of any one individual at all.
The individual you refer to must have had some kind of repeated adverse track record for such a decision to have been made. Additionally, such a decision would never have been made in the case of a single incident only - either by the Board of Directors, nor by the Merchant Navy Disciplinary Board.
That was the purpose of those Boards, amongst other things.
You clearly are seriously misinformed and seemingly "sick in the head".
In the case of the latter I suggest you seek psychiatric assistance a.s.a.p.


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## jmcg

*41153 or whatever you call yourself*

Not a member of any gang as you put it. 

Individual member (always have been with no need to change ID) gifted with an independent mind.

For someone with a short time membership you have spewed out a lot of unnecessary comments on long standing and respected members. You should know better- respect is earned!

J


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## OzBoz

Varley said:


> I am afraid so. Seems strange that ID can be edited like that. Looks as if 'Join date' remains. Good enough clue if demeanour itself were not enough.


Hmmm, joined two and a half weeks ago, and 97 posts already. Says it all really.


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## Varley

But this creature is not here only recently. Having been chased off as Oldman80 he has crawled back. Not with tail between his legs but what that appendage normally covers on clear display. I would say he is lying through his teeth but an ****hole doesn't normally have those.

To remind the company (as in us, SN) as Master he bullied C/E Miller to the point of mental instability. The company did not sack the Chief on 'recovery' but, perhaps not with 100% management backing, sent him back to sea. As that particular issue was known and because the trip assignment was expected to be difficult (making that choice rather stranger, it has to be said) I was sent 'to ride shotgun'.

The trip (a new to management Afran tanker) was, indeed, difficult but the Chief was fine throughout until I left the vessel on her return to the USA. The difficulties, however continued to mount and he ended-up making the old nastiness of **** and fans literally manifest.

Capt Nash (Jerry - observers may have noted that he accidentally signed himself off as that on a post) left the company (I am not sure if sacked but I can confirm that easily enough) but his weirdness continued. He got hold of a telex machine somewhere in Australia and sent threatening messages to DSM for the attention to the personnel and ship managers. One I remember went along the lines of "The streets of Glasgow will run red with your blood when I return'.

It was on another short hop on the Burmpac Bahamas (another difficult vessel) between Lisbon and Las Palmas that the crowd regaled me the stories of his clothing and handbag fetish. Not a matter for pejorative commentary perhaps but I venture to suggest several degrees off the course of normal.

As for the board of directors and firing. It had better things to do than the dismissal of weird Masters. A matter which was quite easily handled at an appropriately lower level (although I am sure one director would have approved the exit). The board may well have chortled at the telexed threats over coffee but the ripples would have been few. If there has ever been such an MN Disciplinary board there isn't one now. Establishment boards (for instance the Training Board) are funded by the Establishment with a consensus as to whether the matters handled can safely be left outside the corporate embrace. I venture to suggest that few companies would leave an ****hole in charge of one of their ships for the want of the Establishment's approval to fire him however attractively dressed.

I do not like to have to wash the laundry of such a good company in public but I am sure I will be forgiven in this case. Welcome him to the body of SN's Kirk if you will but I advise strongly against it. And will continue to do so.


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## 411353

Varley said:


> But this creature is not here only recently. Having been chased off as Oldman80 he has crawled back. Not with tail between his legs but what that appendage normally covers on clear display. I would say he is lying through his teeth but an ****hole doesn't normally have those.
> 
> To remind the company (as in us, SN) as Master he bullied C/E Miller to the point of mental instability. The company did not sack the Chief on 'recovery' but, perhaps not with 100% management backing, sent him back to sea. As that particular issue was known and because the trip assignment was expected to be difficult (making that choice rather stranger, it has to be said) I was sent 'to ride shotgun'.
> 
> The trip (a new to management Afran tanker) was, indeed, difficult but the Chief was fine throughout until I left the vessel on her return to the USA. The difficulties, however continued to mount and he ended-up making the old nastiness of **** and fans literally manifest.
> 
> Capt Nash (Jerry - observers may have noted that he accidentally signed himself off as that on a post) left the company (I am not sure if sacked but I can confirm that easily enough) but his weirdness continued. He got hold of a telex machine somewhere in Australia and sent threatening messages to DSM for the attention to the personnel and ship managers. One I remember went along the lines of "The streets of Glasgow will run red with your blood when I return'.
> 
> It was on another short hop on the Burmpac Bahamas (another difficult vessel) between Lisbon and Las Palmas that the crowd regaled me the stories of his clothing and handbag fetish. Not a matter for pejorative commentary perhaps but I venture to suggest several degrees off the course of normal.
> 
> As for the board of directors and firing. It had better things to do than the dismissal of weird Masters. A matter which was quite easily handled at an appropriately lower level (although I am sure one director would have approved the exit). The board may well have chortled at the telexed threats over coffee but the ripples would have been few. If there has ever been such an MN Disciplinary board there isn't one now. Establishment boards (for instance the Training Board) are funded by the Establishment with a consensus as to whether the matters handled can safely be left outside the corporate embrace. I venture to suggest that few companies would leave an ****hole in charge of one of their ships for the want of the Establishment's approval to fire him however attractively dressed.
> 
> I do not like to have to wash the laundry of such a good company in public but I am sure I will be forgiven in this case. Welcome him to the body of SN's Kirk if you will but I advise strongly against it. And will continue to do so.


What utter bull****. Who the hell was C/E Miller ?
You and your cronies are clearly bitter and twisted, vile, vindictive individuals. Get stuffed.


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## 411353

jmcg said:


> *41153 or whatever you call yourself*
> 
> Not a member of any gang as you put it.
> 
> Individual member (always have been with no need to change ID) gifted with an independent mind.
> 
> For someone with a short time membership you have spewed out a lot of unnecessary comments on long standing and respected members. You should know better- respect is earned!
> 
> J


You might consider those members of your gang "respected", - I do not.
In any case who the hell are you, and where the hell did you come from 
Not that I care - in the least. Go drive your steamroller.


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## John Cassels

Gnash reminds me of IMDG classes 6.1 and 9 - a toxic irritant. Good post David .


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## Varley

Thanks John (I did think maybe your PM was optimistic). Strange how he can falsely identify 'bull' yet pretends to forget a fellow senior officer that he bullied out of his senses. A defence mechanism perhaps. On second thoughts that cannot be right. To have such a mechanism one would have to have a conscience.

I agree his attempts to intimidate are merely irritating to us. I cannot help remembering they were a lot more dangerous to Davey Miller.

I like your IMO reference. I can't think of a suitable maritime electrical reference but have become amused by the modern warning on properties of the electricity supply industry "Danger of Death".

As we all know death is a certainty, the only additional danger is that it will be premature. I must admit to the disreputable thought that should Charon owe a measure of despatch with respect to this particular voyage I would not be sorry.


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## 411353

Varley said:


> Thanks John (I did think maybe your PM was optimistic). Strange how he can falsely identify 'bull' yet pretends to forget a fellow senior officer that he bullied out of his senses. A defence mechanism perhaps. On second thoughts that cannot be right. To have such a mechanism one would have to have a conscience.
> 
> I agree his attempts to intimidate are merely irritating to us. I cannot help remembering they were a lot more dangerous to Davey Miller.
> 
> I like your IMO reference. I can't think of a suitable maritime electrical reference but have become amused by the modern warning on properties of the electricity supply industry "Danger of Death".
> 
> As we all know death is a certainty, the only additional danger is that it will be premature. I must admit to the disreputable thought that should Charon owe a measure of despatch with respect to this particular voyage I would not be sorry.


Ha Ha Ha very funny. I don't recall any Davey Miller at all, but there again I can't recall the names of everyone who sailed with me back in those days. C/E Andy Kaye I do remember very clearly, because of the letter of gratitude I received from his wife for the successful efforts I made in having hospitalised as quickly as was possible, after having expended all the ships morphine on him over a period of days, and " running" as fast as we could to get him ashore, (so fast in in fact that the exhaust gas temperature were at their absolute maximum limits. )
The degree of pain that man was suffering was *distressing in the extreme*. Fortunately he survived, but only just, - so she informed me. In addition it turned out that he had experienced the same problem before on some Denholm vessel (enroute Cape Town to Rio), and had not been afforded the same care and attention as he received from me, and the result was quite catastrophic by the time he reached hospital in the normal course of the voyage, ie " No Deviation " involved.
C/E Alan Taylor I recall also - having sailed with him previously on some ship or another when he was 2nd Engineer.
Other Chief Engineers I recall from my total time with DSM are Brian Allcock (Bridge Boats) Jerry Good (Bridge Boats)
Eddie Bandeen (Chemical Tankers) Howard (and of course Nora) Rhodes, the most charming couple you could ever wish to come across.
There was one C/E, I forget his name,(but it was no Miller - for sure) I had to enter into the log book for repeatedly failing to comply with company standing orders/operating procedures at that time, and furthermore, doing so when a pilot was on board . A pilot with seemingly an uncanny knowledge of DSM Rules and Operating Procedures.
That is what I was required to do as Master, responsible only to the Board of Directors, irrespective of whether I agreed with it or not.
With respect to your voyage through life, well clearly you like so many of us, are nearing the end of that voyage, and in viewing your toxic crap on this website, I feel most sadly that those great " pearly gates " we all dream of, will remain closed to you. (lest ye repent for your sins)
I personally never "bullied" anyone as you put it. " Bullying " was not necessary on red ensign vessels, there was, in it's place, the official log book and the MN Disciplinary board - and where necessary those were the tools I employed & and I might add - on surprisingly few occasions considering the "work load" necessary on the staff of such vessels.
And whilst I think about it the best "Chief Engineer" of them all was not in fact a Chief Engineer, he was a 2nd Engineer by the name of Buchanan, totally dedicated to all his machinery without exception, and a "grafter" and 100% reliable at all times. He realized more than any other I can think of ( "offhand"), who recognized that O.B.O.'s were "working ships" *and not "cruise ships"* as some Chief Engineers evidently "*thought them to be*."
I feel sure "Old man 80" would agree, because he too, did almost the same thing as I did. I saw it in the official log books - *which you would not have been privy to*, either ashore nor afloat.
And just for the record, I was not sacked by DSM as you put it, I was made redundant, then "re-organised" to DSM H.K.
At no time was I involved in any way whatsoever with DSM (Bermuda or Isle of Man).
"Cast" I would not have touched with a "barge pole" no matter what "reorganisation" had befallen me.
As for your claim to have ridden "shot gun" with that guy Miller you seem to be obsessed with, well to the best of my knowledge "shotguns" were never required by DSM - no indeed, not at all. You flatter yourself - I suggest.
Also let it be known, I am not an United Kingdom (Oligarch) as it seems some, seemingly long associated with this site may very well be, cuckooned in their offshore tax havens somewhere.
You really are a silly silly "head case" Varley.
Paranoid too, I suggest.


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## 411353

John Cassels said:


> Gnash reminds me of IMDG classes 6.1 and 9 - a toxic irritant. Good post David .


Ha Ha Ha isn't that hilarious (whatever it may be) . Keep scratching and scratching and scratching.


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## Cranky

411353, Wow! That was quite a rant. I have no idea what your beef is, but in my experience, the more noise you make trying to be heard, the less you'll be listened to!


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## John Cassels

Cranky said:


> 411353, Wow! That was quite a rant. I have no idea what your beef is, but in my experience, the more noise you make trying to be heard, the less you'll be listened to!


I think they call it " verbal diarrhea " like all his other postings .

I would also advise him to pay more attention and respect to Lakercapt's post #52.


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## captainconfusion

well i never what a rant on and off the subject of specific gravity for sea water? It has kept the gang going! Are you all now going to test ones own 'wee wee' to see if its got a golden tinge with age, or is it some bar room story after all those Newcastle Exhibition pints and bottles of Brown ale??? I just wonder. Read on Mac DUFF- there is many a story to come??? Maybe. Perhaps some 'CLAP'-TRAP --HEE HEE!!!


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## Cranky

To be honest some of 411353's posts have given me food for thought, but many of them just give me an insight into how of the back of my testicles see things--- an a$$hole spouting shaite.


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## Julian Calvin

And all I did was ask about hydrometers🤔🤔🤔


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## P.Arnold

Julian Calvin said:


> And all I did was ask about hydrometers🤔🤔🤔


Julian
Do you think I should start a post of Hydrometers and battery SG’s?
Peter


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## Varley

With that long and credible list of people with whom this not Jerry Nash/Not Oldman80 claims to have been acquainted I will leave the wider SN jury to retire to consider if this is Jerry Nash or not and also if I am likely to have attacked his membership here falsely. 

Whoever he is opr isn't he is right as to my own chartering of Capt Charon's boat, as with any who have been on articles for the duration detailed in Psalm 90. All I ask is that if the actual Nash's voyage across the Styx is before my own that the stern sheets are thoroughly disinfected before I am signed on.


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## Varley

Peter, NiCd? I suggest there has been enough of acid.


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## P.Arnold

David
NiCd’s, also a bundle of trouble, if I recall.


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## Varley

Not so Peter. The most expensive mistake was for supers to be faced with failed bank and offered replacements. Mostly all that was needed was a renewal of the electrolyte - not something done for PbH2SO4. As a newbuild I would promote them but at about double the price (1.1 VpC so double the PbH2SO4 terminal voltage) I never succeeded (Alliance had them, pleased, but not my decision). So the bad reputation was based on unnecessary replacements.


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## P.Arnold

I was stood by a fleet of SCI newbuilds in Korea.
I was happy as a pig in ......, with lead/acid. But I was getting conflict information on the NiCd, particularly on the initial ‘forming cycles’ being in the order of 70 amps. Not sure what the outcome was, but there was a lot of swearing, in Korean, so never got to know what happened before they were placed on board.
Ignorance was bliss.


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## 411353

Cranky said:


> 411353, Wow! That was quite a rant. I have no idea what your beef is, but in my experience, the more noise you make trying to be heard, the less you'll be listened to!


Well thanks for that Cranky. All opinions are welcome for sure.
Yes I agree, to a point, but there are limits to all things are there not.?


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## Varley

As they say in Korea., Peter "If all else fails read maker's instructions".


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## 411353

Sounds like/looks like, someone has started taking their pills again - more than just sensible - I suggest.


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## P.Arnold

Varley said:


> As they say in Korea., Peter "If all else fails read maker's instructions".


David, you are quite right, 
Except in my own defence, pamphlet paperwork particularly in English is soon lost within the Korean shipyards.
I should have known better, but all vessels passed survey. And no subsequent enquiry as to ‘flat’ batteries.


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## 411353

411353 said:


> "_Why don't you leave again and enjoy your retirement as you have denied at least one decent chap his._"
> Unquote.
> That is utter bull**** Varley.
> No one person, (either myself or Oldman 80 or anyone else for that matter) could possibly do that in DSM (U.K.) They quite simply did not work that way.
> The only way anyone's retirement (or career for that matter) could be destroyed was by a meeting of the Board of Directors and the involvement of the Merchant Navy Disciplinary Board.
> However as an R/O and subsequently an office employee of that company you would in all probability have been totally oblivious to that fact.
> If what you say is true then the decision of those bodies must have been the decision that destroyed his retirement - not the decision of any one individual at all.
> The individual you refer to must have had some kind of repeated adverse track record for such a decision to have been made. Additionally, such a decision would never have been made in the case of a single incident only - either by the Board of Directors, nor by the Merchant Navy Disciplinary Board.
> That was the purpose of those Boards, amongst other things.
> You clearly are seriously misinformed and seemingly "sick in the head".
> In the case of the latter I suggest you seek psychiatric assistance a.s.a.p.





Varley said:


> With that long and credible list of people with whom this not Jerry Nash/Not Oldman80 claims to have been acquainted I will leave the wider SN jury to retire to consider if this is Jerry Nash or not and also if I am likely to have attacked his membership here falsely.
> 
> Whoever he is opr isn't he is right as to my own chartering of Capt Charon's boat, as with any who have been on articles for the duration detailed in Psalm 90. All I ask is that if the actual Nash's voyage across the Styx is before my own that the stern sheets are thoroughly disinfected before I am signed on.


You are an evil bitter and twisted and exceptionally sick old man Varley. 
Just so there is no misunderstanding attached herewith is a screen shot of your profile which I understand some members are unable to access. The Mental Health Acts you refer to are very significant - *ACT* being the key word, that's it a dirty great mental Health "ACT" - nothing to do with bullying as you claim - but an "ACT" to prevent dismissal /redundancy by the individual concerned, whom you claim to be a C/E Miller. He could not be dismissed/made redundant if he was found to be ill.
Captain Nash was not of a physical structure to be capable of bullying anyone as you allege, and his DSM / Shipping Federation medical records would confirm that. (about 1.7M in height and 70 kg max in weight)
The matter was discussed during an "_after tour of duty_" meeting / debriefing with members of the board around early 1981.
The name of that individual was not revealed to me - just referred to as a senior engineer officer.
That individual whoever he was, was apparently assessed by a company appointed psychiatrist and deemed to be *"swinging the lead"*.
Captain Nash remained in DSM UK until late 1984 and was transferred to Denholm HK where he remained until around late 1985 early 1986 when he left their service by his own choice, having been invited to migrate to Australia, and being very unimpressed, ( indeed shocked) with the deplorable practices of the DSM (HK ) Greek client - owners of the 340,000 dwt (about) Ore/Oiler Ypermachos.
He was not sacked as your evil mind has suggested in previous postings.
*Go burn in hell - you freak.* 
.


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## Varley

My, my, what a raw nerve. It does seem to have some beneficial effect on the amnesia he pretends surrounding his bullying of C/E Miller even if not on the disorder that leads him to think he is effective in shielding his true identity now any more than it was for "oldman 80". The disguises have been pathetically weak.

As to the privilege of SN membership attached to that faker: Let the wider SN jury continue or discontinue its liaison with it as it sees fit.

(Can't quite understand it but Capt. Nash's cut and paste of my profile does not seem to have completed properly).


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## 411353

Varley said:


> My, my, what a raw nerve. It does seem to have some beneficial effect on the amnesia he pretends surrounding his bullying of C/E Miller even if not on the disorder that leads him to think he is effective in shielding his true identity now any more than it was for "oldman 80". The disguises have been pathetically weak.
> 
> As to the privilege of SN membership attached to that faker: Let the wider SN jury continue or discontinue its liaison with it as it sees fit.
> 
> (Can't quite understand it but Capt. Nash's cut and paste of my profile does not seem to have completed properly).





Varley said:


> My, my, what a raw nerve. It does seem to have some beneficial effect on the amnesia he pretends surrounding his bullying of C/E Miller even if not on the disorder that leads him to think he is effective in shielding his true identity now any more than it was for "oldman 80". The disguises have been pathetically weak.
> 
> As to the privilege of SN membership attached to that faker: Let the wider SN jury continue or discontinue its liaison with it as it sees fit.
> 
> (Can't quite understand it but Capt. Nash's cut and paste of my profile does not seem to have completed properly).


Correction:- Image file, not Cut and Paste.


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## Varley

I should have added, Peter, that when supers replaced a bank it would always be with Pb/H2SO4 on the same basis. Cost. So throwing away a more expensive asset for want of a change of electrolyte. SG being a measure of it having been 'poisoned' by atmospheric CO2 (that gas is really being demonised!).


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## Ron Stringer

Remember Ni-Fe batteries being covered by the PMG syllabus back in 1958 but though we were taught about them, the College (Brooks Bar) only had lead/acid. I never came across Ni-Cad whilst at sea or working on Tyneside.


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## Varley

Stonehaven/Hopepark radio room batteries were 'NiFe'. Another problem with incompetent renewals was that where a proper battery locker was provided one might end up contravening regs by having both alkaline and acid types in the same locker.


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## Engine Serang 2

Sparky making a song and dance over the finer points of batteries whilst 
Lecky tells the Agent to get him 4 big lorry batteries and the ship sails on the evening tide.


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## 411353

Varley said:


> Stonehaven/Hopepark radio room batteries were 'NiFe'. Another problem with incompetent renewals was that where a proper battery locker was provided one might end up contravening regs by having both alkaline and acid types in the same locker.


Now at least you are talking about something you do Know about, and not the 2nd hand gossip and utter bull**** you've been spouting in recent times.
*Keep taking your pills, they are obviously working wonders for you.*


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## Varley

Go away you malicious pest.


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