# triple-expansion steam engine rated to 365 hp (272 KW)



## roland1969

Hello There,

Are there any plans or such indicating how the triple-expansion steam engine was located inside a steam ship?

The complete picture?

I am trying to rebuild the Thistlegorm build in 1940 see link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Thistlegorm

Thank you.


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## howardws

I'm sorry if I seem a bit dim, but how are you going to rebuild a disintegrating wreck lying on the sea bottom? Have I perhaps misunderstood your intentions?


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## roland1969

howardws said:


> I'm sorry if I seem a bit dim, but how are you going to rebuild a disintegrating wreck lying on the sea bottom? Have I perhaps misunderstood your intentions?


Hello there,

Rebuild on the computer and maybe as an model.


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## roland1969

More info.

The name of the engine builders are North Eastern Marine Engineering Ltd., Sunderland engine work.

Bores and stroke of the main engine.

23"
38"
65"
42"
2 boilers / 220 psi
1850ihp


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## A.D.FROST

THISTLEGORM engine was similar to the Ocean/Liberty ships.(sis.BRETWALDA,ROYAL EMBLEM,ARGYLL,INVERNESS)

View attachment 35400


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## cubpilot

I sailed twice on triple expansion steam ships. These were Ocean Weather Ships and probably about the same shaft hp. At a rough guess if you can locate the engine room skylights on an external plan or photograph the engine will be located below that and will be on the centreline of the ship if it is single screw. The boiler or boilers will be located below the funnel(s).


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## roland1969

cubpilot said:


> I sailed twice on triple expansion steam ships. These were Ocean Weather Ships and probably about the same shaft hp. At a rough guess if you can locate the engine room skylights on an external plan or photograph the engine will be located below that and will be on the centreline of the ship if it is single screw. The boiler or boilers will be located below the funnel(s).


It's a single screw.

Great thanks for the info.


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## lakercapt

I think that she had three scotch boilers with working pressure of 220PSI.


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## John Rogers

I sailed on a couple of Fort Boats and they all had the Triple Expansion Engine,three cylinder Up and Down job they were nick-named. Single shaft,three boilers with three fires per boiler.Roland, if you take a look at My Photos in the Gallery you will find a very good photo of a 2500 HP steam engine along with all the details.

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/514/title/triple/cat/all


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## chadburn

Engine shown with the old syphon lubrication system, you could look up through the grating from the controls at the syphon boxes and if the wires were not hanging out the oil wicks were in place ready for the me to rock the crankshaft to and fro with the cylinder drains open just warming through before a full rotation.


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## ianrobson36

As most companies made models of ships they built you may find more information at the museum of science and industry at Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

gingerbeer


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## roland1969

Thanks for the info.

I will have about 100 questions later on hahaha. Well serious.


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## roland1969

ianrobson36 said:


> As most companies made models of ships they built you may find more information at the museum of science and industry at Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
> 
> gingerbeer


I hope we get some extra jobs in England so I can come and visit the museums.

I worked for almost 2 years at the Wembley Stadium also I did do some research but not that much.
The London pubs are to good to stay out from.

When we get some extra jobs in England I will stay out of the pubs.


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## A.D.FROST

roland1969 said:


> I hope we get some extra jobs in England so I can come and visit the museums.
> 
> I worked for almost 2 years at the Wembley Stadium also I did do some research but not that much.
> The London pubs are to good to stay out from.
> 
> When we get some extra jobs in England I will stay out of the pubs.


Ship-yard models were at the request of the owners(non of the THISTLEGORM on public display,but there's a one of the THISTLEDALE at Roker Watch house,Sunderland) Newcastle Science Museum may have ships plans of EMBASSAGE,BRETWALDA,ROYAL SCEPTRE,ROYAL EMBLEM(Hall Bros.)ARGYLL,INVERNESS(B.J.Sutherland)CONFIELD(Confield SS) all of which were sister-ships to the THISTLEGORM


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> Ship-yard models were at the request of the owners(non of the THISTLEGORM on public display,but there's a one of the THISTLEDALE at Roker Watch house,Sunderland) Newcastle Science Museum may have ships plans of EMBASSAGE,BRETWALDA,ROYAL SCEPTRE,ROYAL EMBLEM(Hall Bros.)ARGYLL,INVERNESS(B.J.Sutherland)CONFIELD(Confield SS) all of which were sister-ships to the THISTLEGORM


Thanks I have send them a mail.


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## roland1969

John Rogers said:


> I sailed on a couple of Fort Boats and they all had the Triple Expansion Engine,three cylinder Up and Down job they were nick-named. Single shaft,three boilers with three fires per boiler.Roland, if you take a look at My Photos in the Gallery you will find a very good photo of a 2500 HP steam engine along with all the details.
> 
> http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/514/title/triple/cat/all


I checked internet got a drawing scaled it redrawn and placed.

Result.

http://i.imgur.com/1TflPsk.jpg


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## A.D.FROST

The THISLEGORM class lead to the developement to a larger version eg.DORINGTON COURT which was modified to war-time production of the EMPIRE LIBERTY.(from British Ocean Tramps Vol.I P.N.Thomas)
View attachment 35715
View attachment 35716


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> The THISLEGORM class lead to the developement to a larger version eg.DORINGTON COURT which was modified to war-time production of the EMPIRE LIBERTY.(from British Ocean Tramps Vol.I P.N.Thomas)
> View attachment 35715
> View attachment 35716


Well this is great...

This auxiliary boiler is that the donkey boiler? Because the Thistlegorm had one.


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## A.D.FROST

roland1969 said:


> Well this is great...
> 
> This auxiliary boiler is that the donkey boiler? Because the Thistlegorm had one.


Yes(because of the size)


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> Ship-yard models were at the request of the owners(non of the THISTLEGORM on public display,but there's a one of the THISTLEDALE at Roker Watch house,Sunderland) Newcastle Science Museum may have ships plans of EMBASSAGE,BRETWALDA,ROYAL SCEPTRE,ROYAL EMBLEM(Hall Bros.)ARGYLL,INVERNESS(B.J.Sutherland)CONFIELD(Confield SS) all of which were sister-ships to the THISTLEGORM


After 6 years we found it thanks to you. They have some plans.
It will take some months but they are willing to give us some copy's.

Thanks.


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## chuckgregg

Hi its nice to see someone interested in up'n downers I sailed on triple , quadruple and an American built Skinner Uniflow which had a boxed in crankcase and looked like a diesel on first sight . These were all beautiful pieces of engineering and the only engine you could go from full ahead to full astern without shutting off the steam first, you couldn't see the engine change direction the first indication was vibraton from the prop area.


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## roland1969

Gents,

Are the Scoth boilers fire openings facing the enginge or are they facing the other side?

See pic.
http://i.imgur.com/vhNSXct.jpg

Or like this one

http://i.imgur.com/1agxVpK.jpg


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## A.D.FROST

Fire Boxes faces (aft)the coal bunker between funnel and bridge(eg.Boiler Flat).(forward)Back of boiler faces engine.(eg.Engine Room)


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## david freeman

*Steam engine*



roland1969 said:


> Hello There,
> 
> Are there any plans or such indicating how the triple-expansion steam engine was located inside a steam ship?
> 
> The complete picture?
> 
> I am trying to rebuild the Thistlegorm build in 1940 see link.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Thistlegorm
> 
> Thank you.


This intrigues me, As a naval gun ship/escort I accept, as a meaning full cargo ship, i remein to be convinced. From the info and my experience of steam trawlers, It is not the engine I would be concerned about, but the number of and type af boilers fitted and were they oil or coal fired (Bunker/Cargo ratio space). Where the boilers salt water feed or raw water feed, and what was the raw water capacity and evaporation plant to keep up with the daily water consumption. While it is reported on wikapedia, some facts do not add up? And what was her free running speed light and loaded draught? 8 Knots + an onion?(Whaaa)


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## roland1969

david freeman said:


> This intrigues me, As a naval gun ship/escort I accept, as a meaning full cargo ship, i remein to be convinced. From the info and my experience of steam trawlers, It is not the engine I would be concerned about, but the number of and type af boilers fitted and were they oil or coal fired (Bunker/Cargo ratio space). Where the boilers salt water feed or raw water feed, and what was the raw water capacity and evaporation plant to keep up with the daily water consumption. While it is reported on wikapedia, some facts do not add up? And what was her free running speed light and loaded draught? 8 Knots + an onion?(Whaaa)


2 Boilers and an Donkey Boiler coal fired.

I only have a dimension of an area called F.W. Tanks that is 3.2m x 2.0m or 10'-6'' x 6'-6'' more or less.
If this tank runs from across the whole ship it would carry about 100 cubic metres of water. But I am almost sure it will be much less then this.


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> Fire Boxes faces (aft)the coal bunker between funnel and bridge(eg.Boiler Flat).(forward)Back of boiler faces engine.(eg.Engine Room)


Like this then http://i.imgur.com/1agxVpK.jpg

I thought so already many thanks for this info.


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## A.D.FROST

ships similar to the THISTLEGORM would carry F.W. in Fore & Aft Peaks and possibly one amidships which would be a top-up tank from the vap. would have a F.W.5-15 tonEvap.High pressure boilers do not run on raw water and never S.W.Ships used to top-up their tank going though the Panama until they started taking the draft before and after.To some tight fisted Tramp owners(Jocks& Gordies) FW was for the engine(so you made sure there were no leaks)Rain Water was for GP purposes etc.


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## John Rogers

A.D.FROST said:


> Fire Boxes faces (aft)the coal bunker between funnel and bridge(eg.Boiler Flat).(forward)Back of boiler faces engine.(eg.Engine Room)


Unless my memory is failing me or I am miss reading your post, all the coal burning ships I sailed on,and shoveled coal into the fires boxes, the fires grates faced fwd toward the coal bunker,the rear of the boilers faced the engine room was aft of the stoke-hold. I think we are saying the same thing after I read your post a couple of times over.


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## A.D.FROST




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## roland1969

There is an FW tank on the Thistlegorm on its tween deck like 2.5m or 9' from the center of the ship more or less in the middle.
I will drawn that one in. How much do they hold? 

This way I can determine the dimensions.


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## A.D.FROST

roland1969 said:


> There is an FW tank on the Thistlegorm on its tween deck like 2.5m or 9' from the center of the ship more or less in the middle.
> I will drawn that one in. How much do they hold?
> 
> This way I can determine the dimensions.


Its called a 'Deep Tank' for WB (water ballast)but can be used as another dry or liquid cargo hold(Tallow ,vegtable oils etc.)Should be marked on your plans as'Deep Tank' (200-500tn.)


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## ianrobson36

roland 1969

All boilers on steam ships are forward of the engine room with a passage in the centre for access, there is a repeater telegraph in the boiler room so the fireman knows how to control the burners.
On steam engine vessels with forced draft boilers as the boiler room is pressurised it is seperated by a bulkhead and is fitted with airlocks to the access doors. Gingerbeer


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## kewl dude

Quote

All boilers on steam ships are forward of the engine room with a passage in the centre for access, there is a repeater telegraph in the boiler room so the fireman knows how to control the burners.
On steam engine vessels with forced draft boilers as the boiler room is pressurized it is separated by a bulkhead and is fitted with airlocks to the access doors. Gingerbeer

Unquote

US built and flag steam ships I sailed C2 boilers were just aft of the reduction gears in the same engine room space on the same level as the turbine-operating platform. C3, Liberty and Victory boilers were in the same engine room space forward of the turbines. C4 boilers were in the same engine room space aft of the reduction gears. T2 and T3 boilers were aft of the turbines behind a watertight bulkhead. Forced draft is available without pressurizing the whole boiler room.

Greg Hayden


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## roland1969

Thanks for the info.

It is really amazing how accurate these draft people where working without computers. 
I work with technical drawing software for more than 15 years now and I am redrawing all of it. 

There are side bunkers port & starb and w.t. bulkheads front and rear.


In the center I have an donkey boiler there are 2 w.t. doors indicated on the drawing inside the bulkhead.


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## ianrobson36

kewl dude
Having served on T2sthere was no watertight bukhead between engineroom or boilerroom access was from the turbine floor thro' a central passage between the boilers.
gingerbeer


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## John Rogers

kewl dude said:


> Quote
> 
> All boilers on steam ships are forward of the engine room with a passage in the centre for access, there is a repeater telegraph in the boiler room so the fireman knows how to control the burners.
> On steam engine vessels with forced draft boilers as the boiler room is pressurized it is separated by a bulkhead and is fitted with airlocks to the access doors. Gingerbeer
> 
> Unquote
> 
> US built and flag steam ships I sailed C2 boilers were just aft of the reduction gears in the same engine room space on the same level as the turbine-operating platform. C3, Liberty and Victory boilers were in the same engine room space forward of the turbines. C4 boilers were in the same engine room space aft of the reduction gears. T2 and T3 boilers were aft of the turbines behind a watertight bulkhead. Forced draft is available without pressurizing the whole boiler room.
> 
> Greg Hayden


On the Forts and Parks Boats I sailed on the passage way between the engine room and the stoke-hold was on the starboard side.


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## chadburn

ianrobson36 said:


> roland 1969
> 
> All boilers on steam ships are forward of the engine room with a passage in the centre for access, there is a repeater telegraph in the boiler room so the fireman knows how to control the burners.
> On steam engine vessels with forced draft boilers as the boiler room is pressurised it is seperated by a bulkhead and is fitted with airlocks to the access doors. Gingerbeer


In the main yes Ian, but not ALL, it depends on who designed them and indeed which Country they were built in. With regards to GB built, what about those steam vessels with the Boilers on Deck?


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## roland1969

On the drawings the bunkers are indicated.

But they go true the boilers?

http://i.imgur.com/xYAy976.png


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## chadburn

roland1969 said:


> On the drawings the bunkers are indicated.
> 
> But they go true the boilers?
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/xYAy976.png


There is something wrong with that illustration. When warming through on a three furnace Scotch Boiler you fire the wing furnaces first, this warms the shell along with the tubes and then fire the centre furnace.


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## kewl dude

T2 engine and boiler room plan attached showing bulkhead between boiler and engine room.

Greg Hayden


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## roland1969

Due the size of the bunkers I can't fit 2 boilers and an donkey boiler.
Like on this pic.
http://i.imgur.com/xYAy976.png


So I changed it to this
http://i.imgur.com/yjva9Ui.png

The original drawings give an indication of the size and elevation of the boilers. Some original do***ents say she had 2 boilers of 220psi.

Now I don't know where the donkey boiler was located. Or size of it.


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## A.D.FROST

roland1969 said:


> Due the size of the bunkers I can't fit 2 boilers and an donkey boiler.
> Like on this pic.
> http://i.imgur.com/xYAy976.png
> 
> 
> So I changed it to this
> http://i.imgur.com/yjva9Ui.png
> 
> The original drawings give an indication of the size and elevation of the boilers. Some original do***ents say she had 2 boilers of 220psi.
> 
> Now I don't know where the donkey boiler was located. Or size of it.


If you check out my ER plans letter #29 the Donkey Boiler sat in the middle of the two main boilers this is quite common on ships built during the war including Empire,Forts,Parks & Ocean types of which the THISTLEGORM was in this class.


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## ianrobson36

To kewl dude, interesting to see the layout that you have of T2 eng. rm. but I can assure you that is entirely different to those I have served on.
Where you show the control panel ours was the width of the engrm. controls for the turbine and engine were in the left hand corner and all electrical power controls were on the same panel with access thro' tothe boilers behind the turbine.gingerbeer


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> If you check out my ER plans letter #29 the Donkey Boiler sat in the middle of the two main boilers this is quite common on ships built during the war including Empire,Forts,Parks & Ocean types of which the THISTLEGORM was in this class.
> View attachment 37026
> View attachment 37027


My first location of the boilers are actual taken from your attached drawing.

But on the original drawings there are bunkers placed next to the boilers. 
The bunkers are like 12 feet wide and 35 feet long 25 feet high on each side.

They will go true the boilers if I add an donkey boiler there is not enough space?

See this top view picture 
http://i.imgur.com/Et2v8Yi.jpg

EDIT : but I do see the gap inside you bunker drawing... so maybe the SS Thistlegorm had the same?


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## roland1969

ianrobson36 said:


> To kewl dude, interesting to see the layout that you have of T2 eng. rm. but I can assure you that is entirely different to those I have served on.
> Where you show the control panel ours was the width of the engrm. controls for the turbine and engine were in the left hand corner and all electrical power controls were on the same panel with access thro' tothe boilers behind the turbine.gingerbeer


How did the bunkers look like on that ship?


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## A.D.FROST

You'll find that the EMPIRE LIBERTY was quite similar to the THISTLEGORM but had a flush deck and both had cross bunkers rather than side bunkers.(because they were coal fired boilers)(T2's were oil-fired)


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> You'll find that the EMPIRE LIBERTY was quite similar to the THISTLEGORM but had a flush deck and both had cross bunkers rather than side bunkers.
> View attachment 37028


I made an overlay with your picture. They look like alike.

http://i.imgur.com/PYY23R5.jpg

EDIT: did the Empire Liberty had these type of bunkers as indicated on your latest picture with the dent in it?


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## A.D.FROST

The plans showing the beam of the ship, are from the EMPIRE LIBERTY (n.b.no side bunkers)To me side bunkers are fuel oil tks.for oil fired boilers and cross-bunkers are for coal fired boilers (easier to keep ship up-right and bunker depending on fuel used)Thistle Line had two these ships THISTLEMUIR & THISTLEDALE


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## steveparkinson

*Triple Expansion Reciprocating Engine hand built working scale model*



ianrobson36 said:


> As most companies made models of ships they built you may find more information at the museum of science and industry at Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
> 
> gingerbeer


I have just discovered someone that has built scale model Triple Expansion Reciprocating Engine as mentioned in this thread.

190 kilos, Five years and 4,258 hrs later....

It is amazing!

See it here:

http://vincentebentorodriguez.weebly.com/


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## John Rogers

All I can say is Wow! this man went through the school of hard knocks for sure.
What a great feat building the model steam engine. I hope he gets the money he is asking.


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## chadburn

It is a very nice job although I would not have said it was the only one as I am sure there is one in the Museum at Hartlepool.


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> The plans showing the beam of the ship, are from the EMPIRE LIBERTY (n.b.no side bunkers)To me side bunkers are fuel oil tks.for oil fired boilers and cross-bunkers are for coal fired boilers (easier to keep ship up-right and bunker depending on fuel used)Thistle Line had two these ships THISTLEMUIR & THISTLEDALE
> View attachment 37029


You are correct it is on the plans with big letters.

Two main boilers and auxiliary boiler.

Now it is just a matter of finding out how this cross bunker was shaped.


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## roland1969

I found this picture http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h92000/h92106.jpg

Here the bunker is shaped around the boiler


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## A.D.FROST

roland1969 said:


> You are correct it is on the plans with big letters.
> 
> Two main boilers and auxiliary boiler.
> 
> Now it is just a matter of finding out how this cross bunker was shaped.


The cross bunkers was just another hold and the deep tank aft of the ER was to trim the ship (keep the ship level)when bunkers were taken and when coal was used.(so the deep tk held the equivalent in WB to Coal held in the Cross bunkers)


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## roland1969

A.D.FROST said:


> The plans showing the beam of the ship, are from the EMPIRE LIBERTY (n.b.no side bunkers)To me side bunkers are fuel oil tks.for oil fired boilers and cross-bunkers are for coal fired boilers (easier to keep ship up-right and bunker depending on fuel used)Thistle Line had two these ships THISTLEMUIR & THISTLEDALE
> View attachment 37029


I am going to order these ships plans also.

And the engine specs of the SS Thistlegorm are already ordered.


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## A.D.FROST

roland1969 said:


> I am going to order these ships plans also.
> 
> And the engine specs of the SS Thistlegorm are already ordered.


A ship builders model of THISTLEDALE/THISTLEMUIR is kept at the Roker Volunteer Life Brigade,Roker Watch House,Sunderland.(01915672579)


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## chadburn

There were Coal fired vessels of various types and tonnages built with just side Bunkers, in particular Liners as seen in a recent photo on this Site which shows a Liner taking on Coal into the Bunker Gallery. There was no problem with "listing" as designated Port& Starboard Boilers should use around the same amount of coal from the designated Port& Starboard Bunkers when in steam. When converted to oil fired from Coal the old Coal Bunkers were sectioned in to Tanks for each seperate Stokehold which included a Settling Tanks and Pump Rooms Port & Starboard.


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## Hugh Ferguson

I sailed in this old Blue Funnel "up and downer" in 1945: she had three double ended Scotch coal burning boilers!


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## chadburn

Hugh Ferguson said:


> I sailed in this old Blue Funnel "up and downer" in 1945: she had three double ended Scotch coal burning boilers!


With the three Boilers being double ended, the for'ad side of the Midships Boiler would take coal from the Starboard Bunker and the Aft side of the Midships Boiler from the Port Bunker.(*))


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## jamesgpobog

> T3 boilers were aft of the turbines behind a watertight bulkhead. Forced draft is available without pressurizing the whole boiler room.


Yep. Mispillion was a T3-S2-A3 and that was the setup. The boiler flats are a bit higher than the reduction gears, the shafts run in a space below the flats called 'after engine room', though it really is just a pump room. There is no WTD between the engine room and A.E., but there is between the boiler room and the engine room.


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