# Nostalgia Exploitation



## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

I know that a number of members have mentioned the enjoyment they have obtained from cruises on board the elderly small cruise ship Discovery, including cruises organised for ex-mariners by Snowbow under the Maritime Memories brand. This is great and we all know that a convivial gathering of people of a like mind, background and experience is usually very enjoyable. What I cannot understand is the wildly inaccurate descriptions of Discovery that are made by Maritime Memories in its adverts (see the back page of the June 2007 edition of Ships Monthly) and website (http://www.maritime-memories.com)

The Ships Monthly advertisement cruise is 27 days duration and starts at Manaus in Central Brazil. The voyage is down the Amazon, around to the Eastern Caribbean, on to the Azores and to Harwich. Two shorter 14 day options involve leaving/joining the voyage at Barbados. 

The advert features a large coloured reproduction of a painting of NZSCo’s Ruahine (scrapped 1973), 8 house flags of old British liner companies and a very small thumbnail bow-on photo of Discovery. We are invited to “Relive the classic days of shipping and celebrate the shipping companies of yesteryear” 

Maritime Memories writes this about the Discovery: -

“With her classic lines and wide teak decks, Discovery is one the very last ocean-going liners.” This statement is completely untrue. She was built in 1972 as Island Venture for two Norwegian shipping companies who invested in a joint-venture company called Norwegian Cruiseships A/S. She was initially operated by Flagship Cruises on cruises from New York to Bermuda. This was a commercial failure and she was bought by P&O to place in their newly acquired Princess Cruises as Island Princess. She was one of the original Love Boats. The ship is not designed as, nor has she ever been employed as an ocean liner.

“She looks and feels like a real ship should, with 8 classic ocean liner decks and berths for only a little over 600 passengers, which sounds just about right.” Discovery is a bog-standard basic first-generation modern cruise ship. She has lower berth accommodation for 472 passengers, with a maximum of 689 using Pullman berths. 

“Because she has been solidly constructed and has a deeper-than-average draft she’s a great sea-ship, her speed and stability enabling her to sail anywhere in the world and unlike those huge cruise ships of today, she has wide open decks that actually allow us to see the sea and stars at night.” The draft of Discovery is quoted on Maritime Memories web site as 25 feet (7.62 metres). The Discovery’s own website gives 7.49 metres. The figures for some similar vessels show that the draft of Discovery is not exceptional: -
Three Royal Viking ships (1972/3) now Albatross, Black Watch & Boudicca – 7.6 metres
Costa Allegra & Costa Marina (1969) – 8.2 metres
Marco Polo (1965) – 8.2 metres
Maxin Gorkiy (1969) 8.3 metres
Saga Rose (1965) 8.3 metres
Saga Ruby (1973) – 8.2 meters

The website quotes Discovery as having a service speed of only 18 kts – unusually slow for any cruise ship engaged in long distance operations. Oriana, Aurora, Amsterdam etc all have service speeds about 24 kts, the two Queens operate at 26/28 kts. I do not know of any ship where it is not possible to “see the sea and stars at night” from the upper deck in exactly the same way as Discovery.

“In short, she’s the sort of ship all us old salts and ship lovers will enjoy sailing on.” I am sure that a group of old salts and ship lovers will enjoy themselves in most environments, but even 20 years ago Fairplay magazine was critical of the employment of Island Princess on long voyages out of Sydney: -
“ From Sydney the nearest port (be it Auckland or Noumea) is at least 60 hours steaming at an average of 22 knots and even longer for a slower ship such as Island Princess. The “temperament” of the Pacific Ocean itself makes a lot of difference. The shallower draft ships like the Princess twins can behave most uncomfortably in any sort of Pacific swell.”

The Maritime Memories website describes Discovery having “the Red Ensign flying proudly from her stern.” Nowhere is there a mention that this is because she is registered in Bermuda.

Prices for transatlantic positioning voyages are usually very cheap, especially in a ship as slow as Discovery. The 14 day Amazon – Barbados sector gives a better feel for the value for money being offered by Maritime Memories. This is quoted at £1,795 per person, on the basis of two people sharing a category O inside cabin. These are the cheapest on the ship and are situated on the very lowest passenger deck. The ship has only four cabins in this category, so clearly Maritime Memories are hoping to persuade most of their customers to spend more. By comparison the UK press has many adverts for cruises this week. One is for the new Princess ship Royal Princess (ex R Eight, ex Minerva II, 2001, 30,277 grt, 702 passengers) for 17 days from Miami to Manaus for £200 less than Maritime Memories are charging for 14 days. The other is for a cruise on a real ocean liner, QE2, for 14 days from Southampton around the Mediterranean for £500 less!

Discovery is 35 years old. She deserves to be hailed as an object of nostalgia in her own right, before she is banned for failing to meet the next SOLAS safety and stability rules and the EEC pollution regulations. I feel that it is outrageous that Maritime Memories should make the claims contained in their advert and on their website to attract elderly people who worked on, sailed in, or loved real liners. Unfortunately it is doubtful if the Advertising Standards Agency would understand.


Fred(Cloud)


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

To say what has been said is 'wildy inaccurate' is a tad harsh perhaps.
Despite being a 'bog standard first generation cruise ship', the accommodation will be far superior than that which many of us have (and still do) contend with at sea.
18 knots? Bl**dy quick if you ask me (and many others), now on a real ship you'd do 12 knots (downhill).
Also, if a ship is registered in Hamilton (Bermuda), she will still have a proper British certificate of Registry and will still fly the Red Ensign, exactly the same as those registered in London. Now if they had said she was UK flagged, well that would be different.
How does her draft compare with similar sized ships built today? The context of the 'average' mentioned in the text isn't clear, and so it could be assumed to either ships of similar age/size and those of today of similar size.
As for the liner bit, well, some may argue that she's a 'Cruise Liner' (whatever one of them is), but that's a whole other can of worms...
Since when has a 35 year old ship, particularly one which has had money thrown at her over the years (like most passie boats) been elderly?
1972? Luuuxzzurrry.
I can feel a "Who's been on the oldest ship" thread coming on. LOL


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

I would be surprised if Des Cox of Snow Bow has anything to do with the wording of this advert. I know Des very well, and he of all people is only too well aware of the origin of the term liner making superb videos of the true passenger/cargo liners. He once told me that he had given up trying to explain the difference between a liner and cruise ship.

To my knowledge, Discovery has never plied 'line voyages'. Therefore, she has never been a liner even under her old name.

Unfortunately Fred, people have been using incorrect language for too long. We have lost the battle as Des once said. I reckon at least 99 per cent of the public think liner means any passenger ship. They have simply no idea that liner is a trade name, not the collective term for these vessels. And no matter how we try to educate them, they will not listen. It is the same as those who refer to a ship as a boat. When aboard Oriana for 6 weeks, almost every passenger referred to her as a boat. Not in slang as many seafarers use boat, but actually thinking a ship is a boat preffering boat instead of ship. It was the same when aboard same Navigator of the Seas. All passengers referred to her as a boat. When I tell them that these vessels are ships not boats, it means nothing. It is a term they have grown up with, and nothing will shift them.

I saw the advert in Ships Monthly about Discovery, but did not read it. You are quite correct. She is certainly not one the very last ocean-going liners because she has never been a liner in the first place. At least when Canberra was around, it could be said she is one of the last of the great liners, and the same for QE2 now that she no longer plies the trans-Atlantic. But certainly not Disvovery. And her cruises although memories, are not retracing a line voyages of passenger liners of yesterday.

And a ship can never be a cruise liner, because the two trades are totally different. 

Once again for those not sure what liner means. Liner is a trade name, it has nothing to do with a particular type of ship. It is a vessel that plies a 'line voyage'. That is a scheduled voyage to a specific desitnation. Passenger or cargo ships ply these voyages, some taking both. In the old days, passenger liners carried both cargo and passengers, some mail ships. Passengers often got off en-route just like getting off a bus or train, and others got on. Cargo was also dicharged en-route or taken aboard. At the final port, eveything got off, passengers and cargo. The ship then returned on the same line, hence the name 'line voyage'. 

A single name was needed to apply to vessels on this trade, and liner was born. The first liners were sailing ships. As the years went by without getting too deep into nautical history, more ships were built to take cargo only, or just a few passengers. Passenger ships were changing too, carrying more passengers and less cargo. Cruising began to become more popular. In fact, companies had to send their ships cruising because the airliner was taking away their bread and butter on passengers line voyages. 

The early 70s saw the biggest change where passengers ships changed to cruising full time. That is when passenger line voyages ended except for a few exceptions and the trans-Atlantic. In fact, the latter is on the increase.

The only true liners today in regular service are container ships, car carriers and other cargo ships that ply regular 'line voyages'. And of course these are voyages not cruises. It could be argued that it is misleading to advertise a cruise as a voyage?!. David


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## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

James

My complaint is that Maritime Memories are pretending that “Discovery is one the very last ocean-going liners.” Everything about the advert and the website is about the opportunity to relive the past age of ocean liner travel. Incidentally the owners of Discovery do not make this claim. There are several hundred “cruise liners” and over 30 on order so there is no way that Maritime Memories could say that the mean that they are offering a voyage one of the last cruise ships. 
Discovery does not have a “deeper-than-average draft” for her size and age, as I have shown by the figures for other ships from her period that are still around. There are no new built cruise ships as small as Discovery. Such a ship would be completely uneconomic to build and operate. Cruise operators aim to have as low a draft as possible to access a wider range of ports. Most newer cruise ships however, have a draft that is about a metre deeper than Discovery’s 7.5 metres, with the only recently built "ocean-going liner” Queen Mary 2 coming in at 10.3 metres.

Fred(Thumb)


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Sorry chap's but I don't see what the big deal is. Liner, cruise ship, passenger vessel, who cares. She is an elder Lady and I bet a better time would be had on board than on one of Carnivals "MacDonalds at Sea", whether it be a Holland America gigilo cruise or the stuffed shirt B/S on a Cunarder where class distinction still prevails in dining room allocation dependent on the cabin you buy.

I'll bet that the old Lady will complete the advertised voyage without interruption or cancellation due to p--s poor naval archetecture or engineering design as is the case with the floating Disneyworlds that clutter up the oceans today. Am sure her stability is well within acceptable limits and I would put more faith in getting off her safely in an emergency than I would off one the new steel condominiums.

As for flag, since when has Bermuda ceased to be a Red Ensign country?

Regarding the nostalgia bit, am sure that ex MN seamen are savvy enough to read between the lines of the advertising agencies copy. It's not the end of the world. 

Good luck to all who sail on her, wish I was going along.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Keltic Star

The big deal as you would know as an former MN officer is the misuse of nautical vocabulary. Like all professions, the nautical profession has professional jargon, just as we have in the medical profession. This jargon begins when a profession is founded and is added to as that profession evolves. Liner is just one of many nautical terms that has a specific meaning within the nautical profession. If anybody is to change the meaning of this term it is the profession themselves, not outsiders. But they can't change the meaning of liner to suit the cruise trade as some would want because vessels are still plying 'line voyages'. The only differenece is that these vessels are no longer passenger ships, although some container ships for example on scheduled voyages carry a few passengers.

The misuse of liner began when ships changed from 'line voyages' to cruising. In short, it has been changed out of total ignorance. The public, along with the media has no idea what the term liner means, just as they have no idea that heart attack is not a medical term. They think liner is the collective name for a cruise ship because they have never been taught correct terminology, so they unwittingly use wrong words and the nautical profession is doing nothing to stop it. They are just allowing people to use wrong terminology. If you go aboard a cruise ship, you will see what I mean. Not once will you hear nautical terminology used. When you speak to the officers or other nautical professions asking what they say when they hear wrong words used, or their ship a boat, they all tell me that they have given up trying. In other words, they threw in the towel long ago. Well, I soon tell them that I do not give up so easily and will always defend the nautical profession and the meaning of the words that our ancestors invented, many dying at sea as they built up the profession and trading with other countries that we now take for granted. The liners they sailed in were very different to those of today cargo or otherwise. So if nothing else, please preserve the meaning of the word liner for these brave souls many of whom lost their lives for our cause.

So does it really matter?. Yes, it does.

I certainly agree about Dicovery being better than other cruise ships. I was aboard one those 'Macdonalds at Sea' only a few weeks ago. Truly awful. But lets keep nautical terminology at sea, and shoreside language on land in cluding the true meaning of liner. David


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## Tony Crompton (Jul 26, 2005)

I,for one, have thoroughly enjoyed my 3 "Maritime Memories" cruises on "Discovery. The ship is superb, the crew wonderfull, Des's Organisation has proved faultless. She does fly the Red Ensign.

Wether she is called a Liner or Cruise ship is to me totally irrelevant. In my professional experience ( aged 13 on HMS Worcester, through Masters,and then 31 years a Pilot) we simply called ships by their type,i.e. "Discovery" was a Passenger ship, others were Bulk Carriers, Tankers, Gas Tankers, Cargo ships, Ferries,etc. etc.
A "Passenger Ship" was just that, a ship that carries Passengers!!
-------------------------------------
Tony C


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Well said Tony.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

I also agree with Tony, but ships have trade names, always have and always will within the profession if not amongst the rest of the population.

As for Des Cox have known him for years. A fine man. I have never been aboard Discovery, but would believe the reports I have been given. That however was not the reason for Fred starting this thread. It is about an advert which is not correct. 

I once studied the origin of liner after the captain of Canberra told me she had ceased to be a liner, and had become a full time cruise ship. The rest is history as they say. David


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## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

As I have written in earlier posts, Discovery is a good, first generation small cruise ship. I am sure that a group of mariners will have as enjoyable a time together on her as did the SN members who travelled on the ferry Pride of Bilbao arranged by David last year. My point is that David did not make an unjustified claim that Pride of Bilbao was “one of the very last ocean-going liners”, unlike Maritime Memories. Unlike them he did not write about the Pride of Bilbao’s “8 classic ocean liner decks” nor her “deeper-than-average draft” nor did he make any of the other spurious claims made by Maritime Memories to drum up passengers. Most importantly David did not illustrate his thread with a photograph of Canberra and suggest that we travel on a ship charging several hundred pounds over the odds.

The Ships Monthly advert is illustrated with a painting of Ruahine. This ship is featured in our galleries and one of the photos is http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/11133/cat/520/si/Ruahine

The cruise is on board Discovery
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/14711/cat/520/si/Discovery/perpage/12
From this photo you will see that she is an attractive ship, but she is not “one of the very last ocean-going liners”

The operators of the ship, Voyages of Discovery, do not make the claims being made by Maritime Memories. 

Fred(Thumb)


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## GEORDIE LAD (Sep 6, 2005)

I'm sorry,but the semantics involved in this controversy over terminology is at least uneccessary,and at best argumentative.I crossed the Atlantic the first time on a "liner" ( Empress of France) and crossed again last year on M.V.Discovery.Except for calling at other ports,we did exactly the same routine of eating,drinking,being entertained,and sleeping in smallish cabins.We considered ourselves very fortunate,because unknown to us it was also a Maritime Memories event.I received the same brochure that Fred did,but I saw no need to draw such offence.The vessel offers great value,and Maritime Memories soaks you in Maritime nostalgia,with themed dinners drawing on menus from other ships and lines that have long gone,panel discussions and lectures.Also every day you had Snowbows' videos of times and vessels that are only memories streaming onto your TV.A great experience that we would repeat in a heartbeat....Doug


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Doug

There is nothing argumentative about it. The trans-Atlantic liners you speak of were carrying passengers from A to B. A cruise ship making the same crossing is not doing to as a means of transport, but as a means of pleasure.

I cannot emphasise enough that it is the trade of the ship that is in question. 

The thing that really puzzles me is that those who are disagreeing with myself and Fred are all deep into nostalgia just like we are.

My reason for wanting to preserve nautical terminiology including the true meaning of liner is within the wonderful videos that Des Cox puts out. An era never to be repeated. Not only are these ships long since gone, but the way of life below deck along with language used.

If some of these wonderful memories are re-lived aboard Discovery then great. Why in the name of sanity would I be against that when keeping the past alive is exactly what I have been fighting for all these years. And thanks to Des, and indeed Discovery those days are being kept alive.

We are all in the same boat/ship on this, so please lets stop arguing. Or at least agree to disagree on certain apsects. But we all must agree on nostalgia, the very fabric of this great site.

The thing that Fred and I are saying is that Discovery is not one of the last ocean-going liners. That does not mean however that she is not a great ship providing the wonderful memories that we all cherish. If I could afford to go aborad her I would, like a shot. But I am already booked on three cruises until next May and can't afford more. David


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

The term liner is specific & legal. A liner must advertise the line route, schedule & tariffs. A contract must be issued & freight or passage fare paid.
The Line must deliver the goods or pax to the stated destination. No more, no less.

In the USA any company offering liner services must register tariffs with the USMC.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Many thanks for that information Tony. David


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## David Davies (Dec 11, 2006)

*To go or not to go*

My wife and I have considered taking a cruise but have been put off by the large number of passengers crammed on board. A family friend who spent part of the war in Germany as a POW described his cruise ship as the most luxurious prisoner of war camp he had been in, it even had it's own escape committee. A smaller ship with fewer people might not have the "hiedi hi" atmosphere but I expect it would be more expensive.


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

David,
Your profile seems to indicate that you are not the type for modern day cruising with all its brashness & glitz. There are several companies offering smaller vessels with less Blackpool or Butlins like themed itineraries. They also can offer different destinations with more cultural value than the majors. The Hurtigruten, Alaska Highway or similar may be more your style. Try the CruiseCritic website which although sometimes opinionated will give you a fair idea of what's available & how different people report on their cruise experiences. I wish you good luck & a happy & comfortable cruise on a ship that caters for you requirements.
Tony


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

David

You won't go far wrong with Fred Olsen. They have smaller ships, and are not more expensive than others. I liked the Black Watch for example. Smaller and more friendlier as I expected. However, like all older ships, she is showing her age. I would not reccomend other companies with smaller ships if the experience of others is anything to go by. And of course as others have said on this thread, Discovery is very good if perhaps more expensive.

However, without being biassed, I would reccomend P&O every time. Don't take too much notice of my world cruise report aboard Oriana. Those passengers were different to shorter cruises. But the ship itself, food and entertainment cannot be faulted.

Artemis is smaller, but some people I spoke to did not like her, whilst others did. The same for Arcadia. Both are childless. I personally would advise Oriana or Aurora. They are bigger than Artemis. Some may say there is a 'heidi his' atmosphere on board, but I would not say so. The cruise director can get a bit overpowering at times depending on who it is, but due to being bigger, you can chose where you want to go be it heidi hi style or doing something quiet. There is everything on board at all times of the day to suit all tastes whether it is just taking things easy or being a bit more adventerous.

When describing P&O in relation to other companies, especially Oriana I keep coming back with one word. Style. P&O have got it just right. If you don't want to dress up every day, you can dine elsewhere. Some ships are formal, others casual, but P&O now offer both nowadays. At nights you can opt to go for a buffet in casual clothes, or to the restaurant in a suit where you will be served a five course dinner with silver service. 

Don't go on my last ship, Navigator of the Seas. No silver service at dinner. What is on your plate is what you get. If you like veg, stay well away. On Black Watch the food is also already on the plate, including veg, but more of it than on Navigator. Yet with slver service on P&O, you can have as much veg as you like. You can on others if you ask, but it has to come from the Galley, not at hand. Our meal on Navigator took ages to arrive. And you only get three courses of course on Navigator, and no coffee unless you ask. She is not so much heidi hi, but a huge area of basically nothing. Full of glitz, but very little else. Having said that I am going on a bigger one next year. So take no notice of this idiot. I am just nosey and a glutten punishment?!.

But seriously, in my opinion, you won't go far wrong with P&O having just spent 6 wonderful weeks aboard Oriana taking part in everything from quizzes to the quieter game of whist, going to a show or sitting on the deck with a good book. And although around 2,000 passengers, it never seems that many. The only time it is a pain is boarding etc. It can get busy going a show or other activities that most people want to go to, but these are usually timed for sittings, so it is not that bad. 

Anybody who worked on Canberra and wanting to see what these modern cruise ships are like before going on a cruise, then why not join us aboard Oriana for lunch on 8th September this year. It will only cost you £12.95 which include drinks?. David


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## oldbosun (Jul 8, 2004)

When is it going to end? a liner carries passengers, a cruise ship carries pleasure seekers...da...da...da.
This nit picking use of semantics over words that when used every seaman knows what they mean but landspeople don't so don't expect them to. What's the point amongst us of harping on this time after time?

In the 50s, the Bloemfontein Castle took passengers from England and Holland to South and East Africa. When she arrived in Capetown some passengers got off, then she picked up people who done the rest of her ports as holiday makers.
So lets see, according to arguments here, on the way to the Cape she was a passenger ship. On arrival there she took on holiday makers. That make her a cruise ship? Ah, but just a cotton pickin' minute here, she's still got the original passengers from Europe going on to Durban and other ports North. And they are...........................? Passengers, yes! So now she's got passengers who are travellers from one place to another and holiday makers who are pleasure seekers. To us the crew they were all passengers and that was it.
So what is she now? Passenger liner? Cruise ship? or let's make up another word and call her a Cruise Liner!! Same ship with 2 designations on the same day.
But to me she was a passenger ship. I never did think of her in terms of being a passenger liner, but to others of the crew she might have been just that, a passenger liner. What blinkin' difference does it make?

Is a boeing 747 an airliner or an aeroplane? or a 'plane? or an airplane? Ah, but a single seat Cessna is an aeroplane too. 
OK OK I know, we're not in the messroom now.:sweat:


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

I take your point Olbosun, you put up a good argument. No, it does not matter in that sense. My point is that landlubbers are fed wrong information. And because language has been allowed to change over years such as crusing between line voyages, or even as part of it when companies were looking for more revenue, it is no wonder people are confused. 

It is no coincidence however, that passengers aircraft are known as airliners because they took over the roll of the liner of the sea. Small aircraft are not liners no more than ferries or small boats are that don't travel long distance.

There never will be harmony on this subject. As Oldbosun says, seamen know what it means, but land people don't. But now, even seamen, some perhaps who never sailed during the line voyage era are arguing and bascially not even caring it would seem. Perhaps too much water has flowed under the bridge. Pardon the pun.

It is no wonder that nautical experts gave up trying years ago to keep the meaning of some nautical terminology alive. I have just joined them?!. David


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## Binnacle (Jul 22, 2005)

Terminology changes over time.
Here's what Admiral W.H. Smyth said about "liners"in his "Sailors Word-Book" in 1867. :-

Line-of-battle ships. Also, a designation of such packet or passengers ships as trade periodically and regularly to and from ports beyond sea , in contradistinction to chance vessels. Also, a term applied by seamen to men-of-war and their crews.


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## Tony Breach (Jun 15, 2005)

I take your point Binnacle but read up on charter parties where the term "Liner" is specific. Another thread has some abbreviations but I don't know if they have yet covered the CP abbreviation LILO or the wording "Full Liner Terms". Let us say that for commercial purposes a Liner is a common law definition, for a pax it is any vessel that will take them, for the press it can be anything that floats (or sinks) & for sailors it's something that will be kicked around for ever.

Tony


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Tony

I think you are right that this will kick around forever. This is why some people have given up on the liner issue or indeed asking people not to call a ship like Oriana a boat. One of her junior officers although fairly new to the profession have already given up telling passengers that Oriana is a ship not a boat. And more senior officers gave up years ago. Therefore, as with the true meaning of liner, we may never know for certain. The only thing we do know for certain is that some of us will never agree both within and without the nautical profession.

I researched this subject around 20 years or so ago by reading lots of books and talking to people of the very highest rank in both the Merchant and Royal Navy, but have lost my findings during various moves. My interest began as stated before in December 1972 when Captain Vickers, master of Canberra told me that after her final 'line voyage' Canberra has ceased to be a liner, and would become a full time cruise ship. My quest into finding put what he meant started then. He also tore passengers and crew off a strip if they called his ship a boat as they all did in that era. Now, they can't be bothered and allow people to say what they like.

Senior RN people I spoke all said that the SHIP OF THE LINE is not the same as a merchant LINER, The SHIP OF THE LINE is a warship, not merchant. This is a Mid 17th Century invention where refinements were needed to amass firepower. The forming of a long LINE OF BATTLE was found to be the solution. This approach required more powerful guns, and more stable firing. The battle line was to remain as the primary battle fleet tactic until the line-breaking tactic was introduced late in the next century.

If I remember rightly, liner appeared in the merchant vocabulary in the 19th century, but something also tells me it was far earlier, before ship of the line even though it is not the same thing. All I know for certain is that it was derived from 'line voyages', where the ship cargo or passenger or both run on the same line. The line being for example from Southampton to South Africa or across the Atlantic, not battle line. I think that is where the confusion somes from. Liner, was born out of that as a trade name applying to all ship plying that trade. And remember, passengers are also regarded as cargo. 

Line voyages cross oceans trading with other countries, and there is some argument as to when these began. Phoenicians, the most notable traders and sailors of the ancient world are said to have carried goods by vessel across the Mediterranean and into the Atlantic Ocean in 1100BC. Chinese junks carried goods to Indonesia and India in the 9th century AD. In the 1600s, the Dutch became the first in shipping activity, operating a glode-cirling tramp service for merchants of western Europe. The earliest of explorers were also traders. 

The modern shipping industry was born in the 19th century. The captain and crew often sold the cargo for a share of the profits. Common carrier service began in 1818. At the same time, the use of steam power and the use of iron in shipbuilding revolutionized the shipping industry. 

Like I have always said, liner is a trade name given to ships that transport people and goods to a specific desitnation. A cruise does not fit any of that description. I am not against language moving on as long as there is good professional reason. But adding liner to cruise ships is completely going against the original meaning whichever one people choose to believe.

A clue can be clearly seen on Hoegh cargo ships. On the side you will read in large letters HOEGH AUTO LINERS. If only passenger ships are liners including cruise ships, not cargo why have the name liner on the side of a cargo ship?. And why are passengers aircraft that transport people from A to B called airLINERS?. So where do that leave cruise ships that ply a totally different trade?!.

I think I have said enough on the subject and will never be believed by some. So reluctantly, I join the others who gave up trying years ago. David


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## Tony Crompton (Jul 26, 2005)

Binnacle said:


> Terminology changes over time.
> .



Now they call dungarees "Jeans" !!
-----------------------
Tony C


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## slick (Mar 31, 2006)

All,
I have heard the expression "Mcdonald Cruises", I think that would sum up my feelings about todays cruise liners neatly.
Yours aye,
Slick


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## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

There are a wide range of cruise brands available today to meet all tastes and requirements. Some are based on tradition and heritage, some on Las Vagas style glitz and others on Disneyworld style make-believe. 
The total 2006 world cruise passenger figures are due any day now, but I think that they will come in at about 16-17 million passengers. This is far more than ever travelled by sea at the peak of liner travel, but far less than the visitors to the great land based resort destinations. About 55 million visit Las Vagas and 75 million go to Orlando each year.
I started this thread because I feel that Maritime Memories is a cruise industry version of Disneyworld's magic mountain make-believe. An elderly cruise ship draped in the flags of defunct liner companies, to produce fake and naff nostalgia. If that is what entertains people, great. I am still suprised that people are happy to pay an extra £500 per head for 14 days for a Maritime Memories fake "classic liner experience", compared to the real thing on QE2 with Cunard.

Fred


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## GEORDIE LAD (Sep 6, 2005)

Fred,while I appreciate your point of view,I can't agree with your dismissal of what is offered on a Maritime Memories cruise.I can't speak to the value of what is offered for the current voyage because the cruise my wife and I took was offered through another source and was a remarkable bargain.Would you let us know what would be superior about a voyage on QE2 that you espouse?And where would this voyage go? Thanks ..Doug


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## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

GEORDIE LAD said:


> Fred,while I appreciate your point of view,I can't agree with your dismissal of what is offered on a Maritime Memories cruise.I can't speak to the value of what is offered for the current voyage because the cruise my wife and I took was offered through another source and was a remarkable bargain.Would you let us know what would be superior about a voyage on QE2 that you espouse?And where would this voyage go? Thanks ..Doug


Doug

I started this thread because I read three adverts on the same day. One was from Maritime Memories offering 14 days from Manaus to Barbados from £1,795 on Discovery, which was falsely described as one of the very last ocean going liners. The second was on Royal Princess offering 17 days from Florida to Manaus for £200 less. The third was 14 days Southampton - Mediterranean - Southampton on QE2, a real ocean going liner, for £500 less. Please understand that I quote these other offerings solely to provide price comparisons - I am not promoting any of them!
I fully agree that a group of like-minded fellow passengers will add greatly to the enjoyment of any cruise, but I feel strongly that there is no need to make false claims to justify the additional cost.

Fred


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

Fred, re price comparisons, are the cabin categories also the same?
Cheers
Bob


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## KIWI (Jul 27, 2005)

Not entering the discussion but Old Bosuns comments reminded me of the marvellous facility Aussies had.Join a passenger ship at the terminal port be it Sydney or Brisbane & then onto any of the others as far as Fremantle.If you wanted reverse the process & catch a voyage back.Ships were coming thru every few days.If you were on the coast at Xmas bookings were real heavy.Xmas at sea being most desirable.Based on what has been said before we were sailing on a liner,cruise ship & cargoe ship for we loaded both reefer & general. Kiwi


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

The one thing I find most odd about this thread is that those who don't know what the term liner means, don' care or not bothered about language moving on rightly or wrongly all seem to agree that these maritime memories crusies are great, and telling Fred off for having a dismal view.

Well, knowing Des Cox very well, talking to him on the phone about the good old days and his videos supplying him with some material such as Canberra's original siren that he used in one of his videos, there is no doubt in my mind that the cruises he arranges on Dicovery under his Maritime Memories is re-living the days of the passenger liner, the 'line voyages'. The very thing that the same people who enjoy this nostalgia are seemingly against. It does not make sense.

You can't say in one breath that it does not matter if language moves on basically saying that cruise ships are liners because language has moved on despite being a totally different trade, and then go aboard a ship that runs trips to re-live memories of an era that transported passengers from A to B then say it does not matter if this trade moves into cruising along with same terminology etc. Why bother going on nostalgia trips if the past does not matter?!.

Somewhere along the line, I seem to be missing something?!.

Kiwi hit the nail on the head. The glorious days when passenger ships (liners)on their way from say Fremantle to Sydney or Brisabane on a 'line voyage' from the UK, embarked passengers in Fremantle to go around to Sydney etc. In other words using the ship as a liner was meant to be used, like a bus or train transporting passengers from A to B. We did this on Canberra many times. I remember a chap boarding Canberra in Fremantle bound for Sydney only to stop to talk to him as we passed Albany where he lived. It turned out he lived next door to a chap who emigrated from the Isle of Wight years earlier.

It is these very trips that Des Cox is re-living, the days of the real passengers liners, not cruise ships.

Fred is right, Discovery has never been a liner. I was working on Arcadia when P&O bought her. She was in fact the beginning if Princess Cruises as we now know them. P&O boght her and Sea Venture that became Pacific Princess. I never use the term Ocean Liner because a ship cannot be a liner under it's original meaning unless it crosses oceans. I researched this subject during my spare time for a number of years in which I also picked Des Cox brain.

I am certainly not desputing the wonderful crusies and memories trips on the Discovery bring. In fact, I would love to join them revelling in the past. But you can't have it both ways, disputing the meaning of liner yet enjoying the memories that liner voyages was all about aboard a ship billed as an ocean going liner, but never was. That is what Fred is trying to say. It is not the trips Discovery make that are in question, but the fact that she is billed as ono of the the last ocean going liners.

I indicated I would say no more on the subject because it seems my years of research was total waste of time. David


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## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

Keltic Star said:


> Fred, re price comparisons, are the cabin categories also the same?
> Cheers
> Bob


Bob

All three offers are for inboard cabins. Maritime Memories price is for the lowest category cabin in Discovery. None of the three offers are from the owners of the ships. I suspect that as Maritime Memories is a much smaller travel agent than the other two, it receives a smaller discount. As a result we are being asked to pay more for a cruise that, on the comparison between the ships, should be cheaper.

Regards

Fred


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## fred henderson (Jun 13, 2005)

David

Your comments are exactly in accord with my views. I expect that the publicity for an organisation promoting nostalgia cruises should be historically correct. The Maritime Memories advert is inaccurate and misleading in almost every line. What confidence can we have in such an organisation producing accurate lectures, etc on the voyage?

Fred


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

Many members of this site (more than have replied to this thread) have been on these cruises, all enjoyed them and many are planning to repeat the cruise again this year.
It's a bit of a sweeping statement to decry an entire organisation due to some small, and lets face it, that's what they are, mistruths (I don't see it to be malicious) in an advert. The people who do the lectures on these trips are all ex Seamen or experts in the field.
You pays your money, you take your choice, and as Fred often says when we decry the newer ships - they're there to provide a service, and if the customer is pleased with the end product, then what's the problem?
That's the bottom line after all.
By the way, is QE2 still a liner? I was under the impression she's now a full time cruise ship and that her 'buxom' fleetmate is now in charge of the Southampton - New York sailings. If she is a full time cruise ship, then by Davids methodology she's no longer a liner, is she?
Nobody has quite managed to answer the question regarding a 'Cruise Liner', which may be the category that Discovery (and her ilk) fit into. The difference between the former and a liner is at best down to questionable dictionary definitions and at worst personal opinion. After all, if the term had any meaningful background I'm sure the Trades Descriptions people would be down on them like a tonne of bricks.


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## Pompeyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

Jim

No, QE2 is no longer a liner because she no longer plies the trans-Atlantic. In fact funnily enough, a passenger on Oriana who cruises a lot including QE2 said she is not so good now that she is a full time cruise ship. She was not a nautical professional, but knew enough to know the difference between a cruise ship and a liner without having it rammed down her throat. She just knew. Cunard advertise her world cruise sectors as 'line voyages' which is clutching at straws really, but at least she was a liner whereas some of these other cruise ships never has been and never will be. But I certainly would not tell anybody off for still calling QE2 a liner because she still looks the part. She is the design that people associate the great passenger liners of yesteryear. Long may she continue. I saw her go out the other evening behind Oceana. Absolutely no comparison. One with beautiful sleek lines that we associate with a proper passenger ship, and one that is downright ugly. Incidentially, I will be aboard the ugly one on a cruise in September with a P&O reunion!. David


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## James_C (Feb 17, 2005)

David,
I didn't realise Cunard were advertising her sailings as 'line voyages'. Surely Cunard must be just as guilty as Maritime Memories in misleading the public with such descriptions.
(playing Devils Advocate here).


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