# what is this please



## 6639

Now, I know this question won't have been asked before so think I'm safe???

I picked this up after finding it half burried in mud on the salt marshes at Lytham St Annes about 25 - 30 years ago...........it was on the mud banks opposite the site across the Ribble estuary where the German Barque Mexico and two lifeboat crews met their end in the disaster of 1886.

the question is, is is a "treenail" from such a ship's planking or in fact anything to do with a ship for that matter.........any ideas from our sailing ship guru's please.........it looks from surface damage to be a red wood in colour but I definately don't want to cut into it to find out.

thanks for any help.
neil.


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## stein

A treenail shouldn't be pointed? You bore a hole and hammer the nail into it, then widen it at the ends. Scroll down to 3'rd 4'th picture from bottom here: http://dno.vikingkings.com/PortalDefault.aspx?portalID=118&activeTabID=1026&parentActiveTabID=1002 There's one with a head on top of this page: http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenagle 

I'm not claiming to be able to decide, Im just presenting my thoughts.


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## trotterdotpom

I've never heard of a 'treenail' but I can there is definitely a thumb nail in the photos.

John T


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## Basil

Don't know, but stein's first URL is a reminder of Saxon? terms which are common to all European shipping; in English: clinker built, carvel, trenail etc., and, in Scotland, farmers referred to byggins.

p.s. Are we to send our women off inland again and keep a watch to seaward?


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## stein

Look out for the Icelanders, they’re the ones hooked on the Viking age. Some of them still swear to the old Asa-gods as well. Besides, the idea of robbing the Brits with modern banking didn’t turn out that well for them in the end.


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## ray1buck1

is it some sort of "Fid" /"fids"?
Ray


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## Nick Balls

Very interesting, As Stein says this is not a treenail (Trennel) These would be uniform thickness ( 1 inch dia for every 100 ft of ship) 
The top of this object is oval, it looks like a tool. I thought of the similarity between it and a wooden fid, looking up a list of diagrams of sailmakers tools I can'y really quite match it, yet as has always been the case, if it is from a vessel it may have been a handmade tool such as that. Whatever the answer it is intriguing! It also looks pretty ancient.


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## 6639

what is a "fid" guys.......had a similar answer on another forum.....but don't know what a "fid" is........and thanks for your replies.
cheers, neil.


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## Monket

A fid is a wooden spike used in splicing.


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## Nick Balls

A possible better explanation might be that it is some kind of 'Toggle' 
these had a wide variety of uses on sailing ships, (See pic)


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## Farmer

*N.h.p. !!!!!!*

For what its worth what you have come across, I doubt a fid, the top is wooden and has not taken much punishment, Clinker built lifeboats did carry a fid and a marlin spike but there was no heavy duty rope that a tool like that would be needed and they had no top on so speak they were smooth and flat. I suspect it may be a toggle they were made aboard ship which carried clinker built boat,s. And used as a quick release on the lifelines found on the davit spans of lifeboats. The other thing it could be is part of a sun dial as this pic shows you could make one out of very basic material and going back as far as the viking boats they new when it was noon when the pins shadow was in this position G,Day just a thought Les.(Thumb)


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## 6639

well, this is all food for thought, and many thanks for all your posts.........I don't suppose I'll ever get a definite on what it is exactly, or how old it is, but it is of great interest to me as to what the explanations are, and thanks to you all.
I myself, have absolutely no idea, but thought it of interest especially where I found it.
neil.


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## Farmer

*Intriqued N H P*

Another possibility it could have been a makeshift plug for a lifeboat maybe the crew realised the original was missing when they lowered a boat. Les. Stein is quite correct it was never a treenail(Sad)


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## trotterdotpom

You can tell how old it is by cutting it in half and counting the rings. Why not take it to a museum and ask them?

John T


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## spongebob

If you Google 'treenail' and drift around the various descriptions and photographs you will find items similar to Neil's sample but none exactly the same.
The modern treenail or trunnel is a glorified wooden dowel but a NZ bespoke furniture maker still makes Kauri furniture using the truly traditional method of joining two planks by drilling parallel holes in each plank and driving a neat fitting softwood treenail into the holes to join them.
The treenail is trimmed flush with the plank surface and a hardwood wedge is then driven into each end to expand the dowel/peg/trunnel/treenail to a tight fit without glue. In marine work water immersion provides the final swelling and water tightness.
The practice is similar to the old method of fitting and expanding an axe handle into the head.
There are tapered treenails shown but none so long as Neil’s and I imagine that these could be made of hardwood timber and driven into softwood planks until the enlarged head sits against the plank face. 
Trim off the outboard protruding surplus, wedge it and the water does the rest.
Just a thought

Bob..


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## Barrie Youde

The prominent head on this item suggests that it was intended to stand out proud of the surface (or possibly the bottom) of something. It seems too long to have been used in any bottom-board or grating. But the underside of a large locker (or harness cask) of some kind might be a possibility?

It looks too crude to be a tool of any kind.


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## 6639

trotterdotpom said:


> You can tell how old it is by cutting it in half and counting the rings. Why not take it to a museum and ask them?
> 
> John T


yes, I'll do that...............we have one in Fleetwood, but manned by volunteers.........sadly they'll probably think it's just a lump of wood and bin it..........it's a bit too important for that, .......bit of local history really.
neil.


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## Nick Balls

Neil, The pin looks oval, if that is the case then some of the given suggestions won't work. Its clearly a working tool/device. Of course it may not be nautical, but it kind of looks like it (I think a lot of us would agree) I have also been looking at better idea,s , looking in some very old books on ships rigging details , I see it is similar to a pin that was fitted into the base of a topmast, into the rectangular hole known as a 'fid hole' However its too small! I wonder if it's off a smaller vessel such as a ships boat mast, working in a similar way? However thinking of all the small boats I have ever known I can't recall ever seeing such an arrangement.


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## 6639

thanks Nick........took it to Lancaster Maritime museum today........30 miles away..........they were shut...........lol.
will try again after my holls.
thanks for all the replies.
neil.


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## John Rogers

It sure fits the photo of the block and tackle pin.


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## chadburn

Just been watching the programme "Trash To Treasure" where they were in France looking at an old Barn, it would appear that it could be the wooden version of the taper pin and used to hold two beam's together as shown in the programme.


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## 6639

Now I hope "Bluebird" from another forum doesn't mind me pinching a photo that he found..........but (as much as I hate to admit it) the item I have found......looks suspiciously like the object in the photo.....sadly not something of immense historical importance........just an old common or garden Tar Brush.
It even has what looks like a nail hole on each quarter of the head........I am gutted.....but the two look very similar!!!


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## Nick Balls

Great Stuff , You have to laugh! That does seem to solve the 'riddle of the sands'


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## spongebob

chadburn said:


> Just been watching the programme "Trash To Treasure" where they were in France looking at an old Barn, it would appear that it could be the wooden version of the taper pin and used to hold two beam's together as shown in the programme.


Chadburn, your post reminds me of my long ago visit to Queen Elizabeth the firsts "town house" in Conwy? Restoration work had left original carpenter's marks and other workmanship exposed and high-lighted and I am sure that similar wooden taper pins were used to line up and join timbers. 
Perhaps a bit like an engineer's 'podger'

Bob


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## spongebob

It even has what looks like a nail hole on each quarter of the head........I am gutted.....but the two look very similar!!! Attached Thumbnails  

It looks like we have all been tarred with the same brush!!

Bob


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## 6639

(Sad)I've kept that thing for over a quarter of a b***** century thinking it could be of historical importance, maybe having come fromthe wreck of the Mexico.................and what!!! it turns out it could be a b****y tar brush.........(Ouch)(Ouch)(Ouch)(Hippy)


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## 6639

nhp651 said:


> (Sad)I've kept that thing for over a quarter of a b***** century thinking it could be of historical importance, maybe having come fromthe wreck of the Mexico.................and what!!! it turns out it could be a b****y tar brush.........(Ouch)(Ouch)(Ouch)(Hippy)


that's why I never back a horse on the grand national.............
I couldn't win a sweep in a one horse race, lol


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## Shipbuilder

Looking at the original image, I can't see any holes in the end to take the bristles! Are there any?
Bob


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## Mad Landsman

Shipbuilder said:


> Looking at the original image, I can't see any holes in the end to take the bristles! Are there any?
> Bob


The bristles are held in place by a ferrule which is nailed to the head - you can see the pin holes in the picture. 

On a paint brush the bristles are held by the ferrule and the ferrule is fixed to the handle. 
An old tar brush on the other hand had a ring of bristles, constructed like a besom broom, with the handle in the middle.


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## cueball44

There's one on Ebay for 99p.


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## Mad Landsman

cueball44 said:


> There's one on Ebay for 99p.


Plus postage!


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