# National Maritime Museum Greenwich



## Chris Isaac (Jul 29, 2006)

Many years ago I visited the NMM and was captivated by the magnificent models of Royal and Merchant Navy ships.
Two days ago I visited again in the hope of giving my son some impression the ships in which I sailed and life in the MN at a time when British ships ruled the oceans.
I am refering to the 1960s and 70s.
What do they exhibit of that time..............NOTHING.
I even asked where all the models had gone...........DON'T KNOW was the response.

Does anyone know what they have done with our heritage.
The museam is great if you want to know about the slave trade and the East India Company.
Take a torch with you, some of the exhibits are very poorly lit.

I had also looked forward to visiting the bridge simulator ...... NOT WORKING.

Ho hum, back to Cornwall, don't suppose I will get the chance again.


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## Roger Jordan (May 9, 2008)

Hello Chris
You are not the first that has remarked on the apparent disappearance of, shall we say, “more interesting” exhibits at the NMM.
When I was an editor at Lloyd’s in the 1960s to 80s, I often visited the museum in the course of business and spent much of “Lloyd’s time” in the various galleries looking at the extensive and superb displays of ship models and images from the era in which I was particularly interested, the 1940s to 70s. 
I shall have to choose my words carefully, but I know that at the time the people who were responsible for the day-to-day running of the museum seemed to be more aware of their subject. And this extended to peripheral departments such as the photo archive, which was run by two ship enthusiasts and accomplished maritime photographers. Over time, new people and new ideas came in, and the “theme” culture also set in, and this saw the gradual withdrawal of a lot of the more interesting stuff (my opinion).
The response that you got to your question concerning the whereabouts of the models does not surprise me at all. It would be hoped that these valuable items are still on the premises and intact, but I would very much doubt it they will emerge for a long time.
Its years since I have been to the NMM and indeed any of the London museums. I recall that when I was a lad my parents used to take me on an annual visit to the museums in Kensington and my favourite was the Science Museum. When time was running out, I was usually dragged away from the stationary steam engine and railway locomotive exhibits for which upon pressing a button the pistons would move and the wheels would be set in motion. I had been told that the many Bassett-Lowke models that were once there have now disappeared. 
In 2004, the Maritime Information Association held its annual conference in Copenhagen and part of the programme was a delegates’ visit to the B&W museum located in what was at one time a busy dock area. The museum is run by former (retired) B&W personnel who know their subject well and there is one large gallery that is crammed with ship models, including one built in 1940 intended for Blue Star Line. For anyone visiting Copenhagen, I would thoroughly recommend this excellent establishment.
Best regards
Roger


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

So often the way with museums, Chris.

I accompanied some shoresider friends to the Merseyside Maritime museum in January.

Though there was plenty of interest there...........there seemed to be no mention of many of the traditional Liverpool shipping lines...........yet an entire
section relating the activities of "gays at sea" and unfathomably "Slavery and black repression in the "deep-south" of the USA"............including K.K.K. paraphernalia.

Whilst the slavery and race problems all have their place in history, I can't see how it is appropriate to a Maritime museum...........except in the eyes of a
political body........which was obviously where this was sourced.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

I have just reposted a photo of Rawalpindi memorabilia which is relevant to this 
thread started by Chris..
Stan


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

That sounds very similar to the way that History is taught in English schools currently.
From personal observation and put simply, it amounts to short unrelated 'snapshots' being taught without any attempt to relate events or give any meaningful geographic time line. 
So it appears that Museums are just conforming to the current politically inspired educational pattern.


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## NoR (Mar 24, 2008)

Roger Jordan said:


> Hello Chris
> You are not the first that has remarked on the apparent disappearance of, shall we say, “more interesting” exhibits at the NMM.
> When I was an editor at Lloyd’s in the 1960s to 80s, I often visited the museum in the course of business and spent much of “Lloyd’s time” in the various galleries looking at the extensive and superb displays of ship models and images from the era in which I was particularly interested, the 1940s to 70s.
> I shall have to choose my words carefully, but I know that at the time the people who were responsible for the day-to-day running of the museum seemed to be more aware of their subject. And this extended to peripheral departments such as the photo archive, which was run by two ship enthusiasts and accomplished maritime photographers. Over time, new people and new ideas came in, and the “theme” culture also set in, and this saw the gradual withdrawal of a lot of the more interesting stuff (my opinion).
> ...


A couple of months back we made a special trip to Greenwich to see the Arctic Convoy exhibition at the NMM. 
It was a waste of time the exhibition was pathetic with not much mention of the MN. It's as if they are trying to downplay our history.


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## notnila (Apr 26, 2006)

I also visited the NMM Arctic Convoy exhibition,and like NoR came away quite disappointed.
On the same theme,todays"Scotsman"done an excellent article on the Arctic Convoys then spoiled it by describing a picture of a tanker and a cargo ship as "Royal Navy ships appearing through the arctic fog"
Are reporters and feature writers totally incapable of doing basic research?


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## Powers (Nov 6, 2008)

Re: Chris Isaac's post 1.

Chris, last year I was speaking with the NMM regarding the whereabouts of a model of HMS VICTORY made by French prisoners of war. It was bequeathed to the Greenwich museum by the brilliant British Satesman - the late Viscount Edward Grey. During my conversation I learnt that the model with other artifacts had been transferred from Greenwich to the Historic Dockyard museum at Chatham, so maybe some of the other models in the collection have been loaned out in this way. Wherever they are I just hope that they are being well looked after.

You may or may not know that fairly close to you in Cornwall is a superb collection of model warships, including aircraft carriers, battleships, cruisers etc. held within the Devonport Naval Base museum. They really are outstanding official models, the same type that used to be on display at Greenwich. The museum is not usually open to the public but later this month on Sunday 27th May 2012, it will be holding a Diamond Jubilee Open Day from 1000 hours with many attractions including the model ship collection. Well worth a visit. Regards....Paul


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## davidships (Nov 3, 2007)

> I even asked where all the models had gone...........DON'T KNOW was the response.


Well they should know. A large number of models - many of which have not seen the light of day for decades (if ever) are in the newly restored and converted 'Number 1 Smithery' at Chatham in specially created facilities for storage, conservation, display and study.

http://www.rmg.co.uk/no-1-smithery/
http://www.thedockyard.co.uk/News?newsarticleid=321


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## Robert Hilton (Feb 13, 2011)

notnila said:


> Are reporters and feature writers totally incapable of doing basic research?


Yes. Always have been.


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## Chris Isaac (Jul 29, 2006)

Thanks to you all for the information, I was really looking forward to seeing those magnificent models again.
Hopefully I can try and visit Chatham in the not too distant future.
Once again.... many thanks


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## waiwera (Feb 13, 2005)

*National Maritime Museum*

I went to the NMM a couple of years ago , to find a large part of it was closed for renovation. I had thought the part that was closed was the "interesting part" - that is, as described by other members in this thread, the displays that dealt with our Maritime Heritage from the Second World War to the present day. These displays included lots of models and mock ups of a ships bridge and typical cabins on a merchant ship etc.and lots of photographs of ships ( RN and MN) and shipping, especially in the Royal Docks. 
I must say I found the parts that were open were not of such interest, what a pity, as I was intending visiting again this yaer, to give it another go!


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## Robinj (Jul 20, 2005)

I also visited the NMM a few years ago and like everybody else was terribly disa ppointed. There is a very good Nautical Museum in Madrid if anyone gets the chance to visit.


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## Rafal Zahorski (Jan 29, 2009)

*My own experience*

On the beginning of our project so in 2009 I was looking for original builder's planes of Bembridge. I received an info from Museum Kirkleatham in Redcar (where are things related to Smith's Dock closed in 1987) and in Teesside Archives in Middlesbrough where are archives related to our shipyard. In both places I received an info that all planes were moved to NMM. Finally I received from them only two basic planes on CD - a hull from a side and decks planes. Nothing more. And I was forced to pay GBP 60 for their help. They did not wanted to help me more.

In my stupid brain I was thinking that they should give us a real help as we are doing something what should be covered by their activity - so protection of British Maritime History. But I was wrong of course.

In Redcar Museum and in Teesside Archives we received a great help and I am very grateful.

But concerning NMM - I would like to forget as fast as possible. I was in London several times but I even do not want to visit NMM.

Everywhere in UK we met mainly friendly and very helpful people - not only in NMM.

Best greeting Rafal


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

View attachment 27584
this post-card from the TITANIC exhibition as been brought to the attention of the curator of the museum who as now recognised it is not the ship it depicts but hasn't a clue himself does any one else have any idea.


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## Nigel Wing (Sep 26, 2006)

Chris. I think you would have the same views if you visit the National Maritime Museum Cornwall here at Falmouth. I have been there twice and am not impressed, mainly exhibitions of small boats, which I believe were no longer required at NMM Greenwich. And if one is interested in local sailing and such events it is fine as this is well covered.

Where are details of our great merchant fleets, many of which visited Falmouth over the years, and would be of interest to all of us ex seafarers.

Sadly the museum is only another touted tourist attraction.

Nigel.


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## Chris Isaac (Jul 29, 2006)

Thanks for all your comments, I am going to write to the NMM and I may paraphrase some of your comments (anonymously) if anyone has any objections to their remarks being used then please let me know.


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## Robert Hilton (Feb 13, 2011)

Chris Isaac said:


> Thanks for all your comments, I am going to write to the NMM and I may paraphrase some of your comments (anonymously) if anyone has any objections to their remarks being used then please let me know.


Thanks for that. You may add that I think it reprehensible that the so-called National Maritime Museum appears to have expunged the Merchant Navy from our history along with the enormous part played in every epoch. What are they going to do about it?


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## Bob S (Jul 12, 2004)

The best museum I've come across lately is the Riverside Museum in Glasgow, among various other forms of transport there are plenty of ship models to be found there plus the tall ship GLENLEE.

Regards

Bob


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## Tom(Tucker)Kirby (Nov 22, 2009)

sparkie2182 said:


> So often the way with museums, Chris.
> 
> I accompanied some shoresider friends to the Merseyside Maritime museum in January.
> 
> ...


I agree, The Mersey Maritime Museum lacks in Merchant Navy memorabilia, I have offered many Paintings of liverpool shipping for display for" free", but the Curator was not interested. I floated the Idea one or two replica's of full size funnel's set on plinths might be an attraction.
Even the Liverpool Echo and Willam Brown street central Library are not interested pics or paraphernalia of Liverpool's Merchant Navy of the good old days.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

For many years we fought for recognition of the Merchant Navy and finally
were officially granted a Merchant Navy Day from 2000 - on 3rd September....
Now it seems we have to start again with the so called Maritime museums.
I wonder if the staff of these museums can define the meaning of the word
MARITIME?
Stan


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## frangio (Jan 20, 2012)

I visited the Maritime Museum in Aberdeen a couple of years ago. Was very impressed. Lots about the Merchant Navy and, for obvious reasons, the oil industry. There was also a brilliant exhibition about ferry links between Scotland and Europe, including the Faroes and Iceland.


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## Clanline (Dec 19, 2007)

Sad to hear the models have gone.
I remember seeing many Clan and Union Castle (my old company)models many years ago as well as dozens and dozens of others.
I seem to remember there was a massive room holding them all.
No doubt the museum is owned by China!
Everything else seems to be!!!


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## Scurdie (Aug 6, 2009)

A.D.FROST said:


> View attachment 27584
> this post-card from the TITANIC exhibition as been brought to the attention of the curator of the museum who as now recognised it is not the ship it depicts but hasn't a clue himself does any one else have any idea.


This postcard is certainly not a match for Carpathia! That being so, it is entirely possible that the artist coloured the funnel etc. thinking she was Carpathia, and so this may not even be a Cunarder. Her flags certainly look imaginary!
A much better match for the ship's outline would be Donaldson Line's CASSANDRA of 1906; see for example http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/Donaldson.html#anchor140376


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## Rafal Zahorski (Jan 29, 2009)

Dear Chris,

Your letter to NMM is a nice idea but ... I do not think myself that it will change anything. 

I know one my friend from Leigh-on-Sea. He was a member of a team which bought a very nice paddle tug boat and it was donated to NMM. According to him it was very unique and beautiful tug boat. 

That time NMM had a quite young Director. Tug boat was on exhibition only several weeks. Later on she was sent to a breakers. Not sold, not donated but broken up. I hope he will appear here to tell you this story in details - I can not really.

During my travelling in UK as a Pole - so as a guy who is really but only interested in British maritime history and all beautiful things related to it - I found one very important thing - there are to many things in any museum to display but space is really limited, serious lack of money, income from tickets are not so big like people think, amount of stuff is in almost all cases not enough. 

So - it is really impossible to display everything in one moment. Any changes in exhibition arrangement is very costly - even incomes from a tickets can not cover it.

I visited several warehouses of several maritime and not only maritime museums in UK. Do not ask me where and how I get there  

I found many packages, sometimes a full loaded wooden pallets with attached sticks in style of: DONATED BY JOHN WHITE, Place and date.

In many cases such a packages or pallets are given to a museum when any owner of collection is leaving his family for ever. Than his family - fulfilling his last will is offering it to pointed museum. Museum must take it and say thanks. Later on such a packages are staying many years in different spaces of a museum's store. I saw one pallet in one museum donated in 1997 and still not unpacked !!!

How it is possible - somebody can ask? It is easy. You must dedicate many people to unpack, check and later on insert to a registers. But it is dangerous - because something what is already inserted to a register can not be later on sold, given or sent to a garbage can. It can be only donated to other museum - but which museum? Every museum has the same problem

So it is a reason that we are registering official museum on Bembridge - so I will be able to receive several nice elements for Bembridge to display in our museum - it is not a pity - other way nobody will ever see it.

In one museum I saw a big wooden pallet with high wooden borders. Inside such a strange construction there were a many ships models - more like 100 at least - almost all of them were presenting a sailing vessels. Beautiful models really - all of them were not stored vertically but horizontally with all masts, sails, rigs and other just mixed up. When I saw it - I really was shocked. How it is possible? The answer was easy - no space to display, no space to store, no founds to restore. 

Later I asked: how old are these sailing vessels? They are XVII, XVIII and XIX century models. Because my English is not my native language - than I asked - so they are a new models (XX century) models of old vessels, yes? NO, THERE ARE A BUILDER'S ORIGINAL MODELS. What? Still today I can not understand it. 

Later on I found that this nice pallet is so long in the store than nobody remember. Now please imagine - one of you is taking such a pallet and is trying to separate this mountain of models. First question - how long time you will spent to separate in gentle way, how big space you need to place them separately, how long time you will spent to clean it. Than after such "operation" you will have on a bottom of such a pallet many elements "in bulk". You must find a name of every such a model, find a full do***entation and her drawings in order to check what is missing and on to try if it is in all these elements in bulk still being on the bottom of our pallet. Than you must spend a time to rebuild missing elements or to place back these what you will eventually found. Only a many who was building a model of any sailing vessel knows what I am speaking about.

And the last question - how much it will cost? And who will be really interested to see it in a museum. Simply saying such a models are plenty in different museums. 

I was observing many times how people are looking to any collection. So youngsters are running via different rooms like horses. So vessel, vessel, vessel, and ... vessel - so next room please. Guide is calling: here you can see a very interesting ... and suddenly he see that nobody is even listening to him.

Simply saying many exhibits are dead in any exposition. 

So coming back to described pallet - I am more than sure that this nice mountain of builder's models will be never on any future exhibition. So they will stay like that until a time that somebody silently will do something with them in order to save a space. In such a case the best think will be to sell them or to even give to one or several enthusiastic people to restore or repair it - and is such a way to preserve them for a future generations. 

In my opinion it is better than only a few people can enjoy them at home like they are a waste in any museum store.

So will try to receive some of them to our board museum. I am of course looking for a Smith's Dock Co. Ltd models but any of such a model can make our museum more attractive.

In Poland we do not have to many models - and really I have never saw any builder's model of any sailing vessels. I have never saw in Poland any builder's models older like XX century. 

So maybe for us in Poland such a models are extremely interesting. For us means - for a people interested in maritime history. i am sure that if you will even place 100 the most famous vessel's models in any museum in Poland - polish youngsters will react in the same way like in UK. So run to a next room where are a multimedia screens. 

Sad, but real.

So maybe all of us demanding simply to much ... from a maritime museums...

Best greeting Rafal

PS. If any of you can help us to create a nice collection on THPV Bembridge - it will be more than welcome. You can see our museum during construction here in a Bembridge thread - but please go two pages back.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Rafal -
Thankyou for that full explanation of museums - sad but true..
Regards,
Stan


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## stores (Apr 8, 2007)

*greenwich maritime museum.*

Its a sick joke, they removed and scrapped the best exhibit they had the paddle tug reliance, was a fantastic centerpiece as you walked in, removed all the exhibits from a large gallery upstairs and filled it with plaster casts of wave patterns in the sand.its a maritime museum in name only, the price of buying photos is disgusting, all were donated free, all the souveniers in the shop are made in china, just cheap crap, how the people in charge make some of the decisions they have i dont know, if you try to complain you get nowhere.so many interesting items in store that will never be seen. needs to be run by people with a nautical background. i will never visit it again.(Cloud)


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## Chris Isaac (Jul 29, 2006)

Rafal
Many thanks for that very full letter, much good stuff for me to use.
I will be composing the letter this week and will be copying it to the Secretary of State responsible for museums.
I will post the letter here.
Chris


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

Thanks Chris.


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## stan mayes (Jul 22, 2006)

Stores,
Of your mention of excessive charges about 20 years ago I went there and I wanted to buy six photos of ships..I could have bought 6"x4" but I wanted
7"x5"..the lady assistant told me I would have to order by post -she would
not let me order and pay while I was there..
So I posted my order with a cheque -they were expensive - and when I received them two of the photos had the stern of the ship off the photo..
I wrote and complained but never was my letter acknowledged..
One of the photos is of Dolabella and it is in SN gallery under tankers.
Regards,
Stan


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

" never was my letter acknowledged.."

A class act.


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## China hand (Sep 11, 2008)

Sad really. When I was a kid, a visit to the Neptune Hall was eye watering. All those models! A friend of mine said he was amazed with how he had seen the NMM go downhill. I haven't been there since the 1980's; he goes around every five years. I guess he knows the score. A great pity.


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## stores (Apr 8, 2007)

*Nmm*

Its About 20 To 30 Pounds Per Photo Now.


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

In 2006 I was privileged to visit Mystic Seaport Museum, Connecticut- and was greatly impressed. No doubt other visitors were impressed, too.

One of the prize exhibits is Charles W Morgan(?), the last wooden-wall US square-rig whaleship, built circa 1920 and therefore relatively modern. At only 90 feet in length, she is so broad in the beam and so great of depth that the impression is that of a big ship - which, in some respects, she certainly is. She is so well-kept that she seemed to be ready for sea. Bristol-fashion and everything in place. Worth a visit if you are in that neck of the woods.


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## Baltic Wal (Jun 27, 2005)

I agree fully with Rafal, I have had dealings in the past with the NNM dealing with Mike Bullion and he told me about the vast amount of items donated to the museum that will never see the light of day, also that there were a large number of models, however if any organisation wanted to borrow one for display the regulations were ludicrous. The MNWB wanted some models for the MN Hotel in London and found it impossible to deal with them so borrowed from the Southampton Museum.
I had dealings with Mike Stammers at Liverpool prior to the 50th anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic, and although they had an excellent display they had no idea on what photo’s and models they had stored away.
Moral of the story is don’t donate to museum’s but find younger ship enthusiasts who could use them.


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## Powers (Nov 6, 2008)

Having previously posted that I had found out that a particular ship model had been relocated from the NMM to Chatham, I've since remembered a related incident about three years ago whilst researching the remains of the old RAF Kidbrooke site, just a couple of miles from the NMM. The only remaining original buildings on the site were a cluster of eight fairly lengthy stores buildings, mostly with windows bricked up, within a secure fenced off area. After a few enquiries regarding their status, I learnt that the buildings contained exhibits from the NMM and were 'out of bounds' to the general public.

I was quite saddened to think that so many interesting artefacts were hidden away from those who would dearly like to see them. I also felt that it was ironic that many naval treasures were gathering dust in the darkened rooms of an old air force base.

Regards....Paul


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

I really don't think that there are many young people with any interest in Merchant Navy history. I believe that once our generation has gone, that will largely be the end of it. It already seems to be accepted that the Royal Navy consisted only of Bounty and Victory, whilst the Merchant Navy consisted only of Cutty Sark and Titanic!

Maritime Museums could help by at least having one small room displaying items of historical interest.

The NMM charges are extortionate for photographs & plans. If they reduced them to a sensible level, they would probably make quite a lot selling to the ageing maritime enthusiasts. 

Bob


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## Robin Craythorn (Nov 9, 2006)

Thanks Gentlemen for all the posts, it has saved me a trip to London, with regards to the Falmouth musaeum I too was disappointed but the reference section of the Falmouth public library has some excellent books on local shipping etc.
The 'Great Britain' at Bristol is very interesting and well worth a visit.

Robin Craythorn.


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## Rafal Zahorski (Jan 29, 2009)

Bob, please place yourself into a place of guys and girls working for NMM. What will be better for you: to establish attractive price and to have many customers or to keep like it is today - so a horrible price not attractive to anybody? I guess used today solution is better. You need only to tell a price and than nobody will come. So you can rest longer. 

People are very laaaaaazyyyyyy - it is in our nature. Because of we are laaaazyyyy - than we have so many inventions and development as a human beings. Such idea to make a museum more open must come from institutions financing them. So any financing should be done with many different clauses and the like.

One of the point should be a regulation forcing museums to make a digitalisation of their collections. So on any www of any museum you should see a scans of photos, books, do***ents and pictures of models and other stuff. Than it will be no problem if something will stay in dark archives or stores. Any private use of these digital copies use should be free - any commercial should be paid. 

Many museums or archives are simply forgetting that they are keeping a national treasures belonging not to them but to whole nation where any museum is located. In many cases it is a property of whole Europe. It is our common cultural achievement and to collect any money it is not ethic and not fair. It can be a fee - but just to help to keep museum running but definitively not a terrible money - not to be afforded by anybody. I understand a typical commercial activity - but for any private person to spend several GBP for one scan of one photo - if such a guy wants it as his hobby and demanding a hundreds of photos - it is impossible for him to effort. I see already my wife - Ann, let me buy a scans from NMM of 200 photos. What price? GBP 1000? Are you again drunken Rafal?

I just would like to underline that most of Museums forgotten then they were created to have a mission to show and to promote our history - not to hide it and protect in such a way that nobody can see. Most of them were created as a certain balance to a private collections usually closed for everybody in private apartments and homes of an owner. 

But nowadays private collections (like you can see here on SN in the gallery) are much more available like scans in NMM. Nowadays private persons and companied are more open to show like many museums. Museums are paid from our taxes but private persons are doing more for free and without any subsidization - maybe only somebody wife who "do not see" that her husband is spending a hundreds of pounds to buy by many years a really impressive collections.

So maybe we should privatize most of museums to be more open and friendly?

Best greeting Rafal


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