# Become a "Titanorak"...!!!



## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

From the BBC - 

_Long before Leonardo DiCaprio helped make it even more of a global phenomenon, a Canada-based architect came up with the vision of how Belfast should celebrate its Titanic legacy. 

Architect Jonathan Kearns had a plan to exploit the Titanic legacy 
It was a cross-sectional piece of the ship on the slipway where it was built, complete with a five-star resort hotel. 

That was in 1991, six years before the blockbuster film - and three years ahead of the first IRA ceasefire which helped transformed the city's potential as a tourism destination. 

Today, a model in Jonathan Kearns' office in Toronto is all that is left of his brainchild. 

It grew out of a conversation with the then Economy Minister Richard Needham, who wanted a vehicle to communicate the opportunities available in Northern Ireland for North Americans, particularly Canadians. 

The clients, Harland and Wolff and the Belfast Harbour Commissioners, were initially keen but Mr Kearns believes that it was eventually shelved because politically and economically, Northern Ireland was still in transition. 


I think the project we have on the table is a wonderful iconic project for Belfast 

Mike Smyth
Titanic Quarter Ltd 
But lately some interested parties have again been giving his dusty plans the once over. 

Long after he first had the idea, there is now a real possibility that the place where the doomed ship was built will finally get round to cashing in on the worldwide interest in everything Titanic. 

Plans for a so-called "ship of lights" appear to have been quietly dropped but revised proposals for a "Titanic Signature Project" are taking shape. 


Unlike the issue of a national stadium, there is no debate over where any Titanic project should go - right where the ill-fated ship was built in Belfast docks. 

But there is a question over what it should be, how much it would cost and whether enough people would want to see the project, marking the ship which sank on its maiden voyage in April 1912, killing more than 1,500 people. 



Various commercial projects are planned for Belfast's Titanic Quarter 

The still largely desolate landscape where once stood the largest shipyard in the United Kingdom is now known as Titanic Quarter - 165 acres set to be transformed in the biggest property development scheme Northern Ireland has ever seen. 

At its heart would be visitor attractions linked to the Titanic. 

Plans have been drawn up by the so-called "Titanic Alliance", a group of stakeholders including the Northern Ireland Tourist Board; the Belfast City Council; the Belfast Harbour Commissioners and Titanic Quarter Ltd, but they are still tightly under wraps. 

The project could cost up to £100m, a combination of public/private money, and an application has been made for a potential award of between £10m and £25m from the Big Lottery Fund. An answer is expected in the autumn. 


Thompson Dry Dock will feature the centre-piece of the attraction 
But you don't have to spend long with tourists, who regularly visit the Titanic Quarter on one of the many bus tours which now include it on their route, to discover there' is still much work to do. 

A surprising number don't even know the famous ship was built in Belfast. That must change if Titanic is to do for tourism in Northern Ireland what it did at the Hollywood box-office in the late 1990s. 

Currently only one of Northern Ireland's tourism draws is regarded as world class - the kind of thing that people come here for because they can't get it anywhere else - and that's the Giant's Causeway. 

In 2005 - the last year for which figures are available - it drew 464,243 visitors - more than 200,000 over any other single attraction. Tourism chiefs believe the Titanic Signature Project would have a similarly world-class status attracting about 500,000 people a year. 

The Tourist Board says tourism cannot progress unless the project gets the go ahead. 

Its chief executive, Alan Clarke, says: "If it doesn't happen, I think Northern Ireland tourism will really struggle as a sustainable element of our economy long term - it's as important as that." 

Jonathan Kearns agrees. He says that had his idea been commissioned all those years ago today, Northern Ireland "would have a far more active and successful tourism economy because what Northern Ireland tends to lack is destinations for tourism". 

There's every reason to believe that tourists will come here in their tens of thousands to see it 

Michael Smyth
University of Ulster economist 
But it must be built by 2011 if it is to be in place for the Titanic's centenary in 2012 - when interest in the ship and its story is likely to be very high. 

Mike Smith of Titanic Quarter Ltd says: "If there's nothing there to celebrate the centenary of the Titanic then serious questions will be asked, and I think the project we have on the table is a wonderful iconic project for Belfast." 

Of course many will see as a waste of money. We are fond of writing off major projects as "white elephants" before they are even built. 

Both the Waterfront Hall and the Odyssey Arena were similarly dismissed, yet Belfast today is barely imaginable without them. 

Economist Michael Smyth of the University of Ulster believes the Titanic project is in the same bracket - so long as "it's not some kind of Disneyworld attraction, a stack 'em up and flog 'em cheap". 

"The evidence from the other side of the Atlantic, from Florida and Newfoundland, is that Titanic is a major tourism draw," he says. 


The Titanic sank on its maiden voyage to New York 
"Their connections with the Titanic are spurious and tangential - this is where it was built. 

"We can show that off very effectively here and there's every reason to believe that tourists will come here in their tens of thousands to see it. 

"The fact I find very hard to factor in here is that it has taken us so long to get round to exploiting it fully." 

Whatever happens, there is already a concerted effort to make more of the Titanic attractions which already do exist in the city like the Thompson Dock where the ship was built. 

'Titanoraks' 

The Belfast Visitor and Convention Centre will soon launch electronic Titanic guides, of the kind often used in art galleries and museums, which will help "Titanoraks" find their way around more easily. 

The city council has also received money from the Tourist Board to erect some proper signs while the work continues on producing a locally-based Titanic website. 

But everything really depends on the signature project. 

It would surely be a supreme irony if one of the greatest maritime failures in history helped lead almost 100 years later to a new era of success for the place of its birth. _ 

Rushie


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

What should be celebrated is the history of shipbuilding by H&W and its success at delivery over a long period of time.

Train enthusiasts don't by and large celebrate famous train wrecks (or do they?). Titanic provided a good tale - human interest etc. but it is odd to celebrate what was after all a failure. The French don't celebrate Waterloo or the Spanish the loss of its armada!

Brian


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

Tourists....money....that's all.....

Rushie


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## Piero43 (Jun 17, 2005)

benjidog said:


> ...it is odd to celebrate what was after all a failure. The French don't celebrate Waterloo or the Spanish the loss of its armada!
> 
> Brian


Brian,
I'm convinced that the Titanic wasn't a failure, at least from the technical point of view (her sister Olympic, after all, had a long and normal career), and the disaster occurred only for a series of events and human errors that connjured against her.
H & W is fully entitled to be proud of his creature, which, for the time, was a major achievement.
Sure the whole thing seems to obey simply to market rules, but a memorial could be fit, provided that it doesn't become a sort of Disneyland.
In my idea the memorial should be, beyond the loss of lifes, for what the Titanic disaster means:the top of a whole era of excessive optimism and self-confidence in the human potentiality (in ancient greek "ybris"), that only few years later would have lead the world in a such kind of disasters in comparaison of wich the Titanic sinking isn't nothing more than a road or train accident.
This should be the real warning for the future generations.
Piero


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## Les Gibson (Apr 24, 2004)

What about the theory that the Titanic was actually the Olympic, and deliberately sunk because it had major structural damage following a collision with a naval ship?


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## Piero43 (Jun 17, 2005)

Les Gibson said:


> What about the theory that the Titanic was actually the Olympic, and deliberately sunk because it had major structural damage following a collision with a naval ship?


Les, I heard before about this theory.
It seems to me quite unbelievable:why should White Star have put on a so intricate plot? Just to receive the insurance indemnity? It was easier to set ablaze the Olympic at berth, without risk for passengers, and declare her a total loss.
Besides, to exchange the names of two ships means far more than paint it on the bow.
Just as an example, there are registers, both in yard and at the suppliers works, in which code numbers of the various equipments are strictly related to the ship on which they are installed, and so, in case of doubt, a ship could be identified thru this codes. 
Piero


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## Les Gibson (Apr 24, 2004)

Piero,
It just makes for good forum discussion. Of course you are right about the registers, and there are certainly many inconsistencies in the various theories put forward. I did my first trip to sea in early 1962, and heard the story then so it has been around for some time.


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

*Visit Cobh...*

I would wish everyone visits Cobh (Southern Ireland) because the railway station has a fantastic museum dedicated to her long lost friend. She was the "Lusitania". Although Cobh was the last stopping point of the Titanic, the whole town remembers the loss of the Lusitania with great affection and sadness..sunk off Ireland with the loss of many lives.

It's a superb and memorable place to visit...and its obvious that although the Titanic gained fame...the Lusitania was one of the ships that was loved by the local community, and they shall never forget, and the loss of life and her story reaches far past the imaginations of the film makers of Hollywood. Perhaps not so romantic or "politically correct"..?

Rushie


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

TITANIC was'nt a failure, she was a success, in that her demise led to much improved life saving regulations. Unfortunately she was also the victim of greed and incompetent seamanship.

It is well we remember her, even if its only to remember that bad seamanship costs lives, and that overconfidence in man made conveyances can only lead to disaster.

Chris.


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

I can' really believe the thought that the Titanic was sunk "on purpose"...!!!!

That's preposterous...even for the US tourist trade...

Rushie.


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

rushie said:


> I can' really believe the thought that the Titanic was sunk "on purpose"...!!!!
> 
> That's preposterous...even for the US tourist trade...
> 
> Rushie.



Sharp practice was around in 1912, Rushie and it was just as sharp as it is today. Everything is possible !!!

Chris.


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

Naaaaa......even Walt Disney didn't have the power to shove an iceberg in the way at that time.....McDonalds may have now though....


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## Les Gibson (Apr 24, 2004)

Rushie,
Maybe the iceberg wasn't 'pushed', but the Titanic 'jumped'. Wonder what the Californian was doing out there, large passenger ship with no passengers, sitting quietly in the ice packs, sailed from France in an awful hurry without passengers. There was another ship very close to the Titanic, never identified seen by many survivors. Some even tried to row their lifeboats to it, that's how close it was. The bunkers were also on fire, quite common in those days of coal burners There are certainly more questions than answers.


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## Keltic Star (Jan 21, 2006)

_


Les Gibson said:



Rushie,
"Wonder what the Californian was doing out there, large passenger ship with no passengers, sitting quietly in the ice packs, sailed from France in an awful hurry without passengers."

Click to expand...

_


Les Gibson said:


> Now that's an interesting point. Any more info?


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## Piero43 (Jun 17, 2005)

Les Gibson said:


> ...Wonder what the Californian was doing out there, large passenger ship with no passengers, sitting quietly in the ice packs, sailed from France in an awful hurry without passengers...


Californian wasn't so large. She was able to carry 47 passengers. Nice mess if she was supposed to rescue more than two thousand persons! What was she doing there? She was simply got stuck in ice. Assuming that she was part of the plot, why she wasn't in a position more southward, so to avoid the risk of being blocked? Why at the topic moment, the less experienced of her Sparks was on watch? Why he turned off the radio was, so he couldn't receive the Titanic distress call?
And again:
I'm the owner of the most beautyful and luxurious ship of the time, claimed to be "unsinkable", that anyway I decided to sink for some reason.
Do I choose to do that in her maiden voyage, under the command of the Commodore of my fleet, when she's full booked with the top of the society of two countries, in a so amateurial way to loose most part of them?
Naaaaaa!!!!!
Piero


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

Actually she didn't sink, nobody died....the whole thing was abducted by aliens to shut the band up.....


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## Les Gibson (Apr 24, 2004)

Why were the binoculars removed from the forward 'crows nest' at the beginning of the trip? Why did she not reduce speed or alter course when the lookouts in that same crows nest called the bridge and reported having seen with the naked eye, an iceberg dead ahead? Incidentally, Californian was not stuck in ice, she was drifting with the 'growlers'. Makes for good postings I think!


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## billyboy (Jul 6, 2005)

rushie said:


> Actually she didn't sink, nobody died....the whole thing was abducted by aliens to shut the band up.....



Thought you said no one died. what about these two up forard then?...LOL


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

I take it the food on Pluto was not up to much then..?!!!


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Gentlemen,

We have gone through the Titanic conspiracy theory thing on this site Ad Nauseam. If anyone is interested in this feel free to check this out by using the Search Forums tool but most of us have heard more than enough about it.

There are many sites about conspiracy theories - several of which have very long and "riveting" discussions on this subject. If you are that way inclined you may find joining those sites more satisfying than SN as you can spend your time with fellow paranoiacs.  

Brian


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## Tmac1720 (Jun 24, 2005)

Well said Brian, I could not agree more with your comments, to misquote Dr. Robert Ballard "It sank, get over it" (Cloud)


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

Brian

This is the second time you have censored a thread on the Titanic conspiracy theory.( 26th March 2006 RMS Olympic Thread ) There have been no complaints from anyone whilst this one was going, nor the other for that matter. Nobody was rude or disrespectfull, what is the problem ?, if people are fed up, then the thread will cease of its own accord like all the others do.

Its harmless discussion. Obviously people still want to talk about it, talk about it like they talk about many other maritime topics that have been discussed on this site many times before. SN has a very large membership which is increasing all the time and new members may want to discuss the subject, are you going to stop them everytime the subject is mentioned just because you dont want it discussed . I feel you are being harsh on this subject, and it shouldnt be singled out for this kind of treatment anymore than any other maritime subject.

Chris.


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

Must admit...even though I may not agree with some, I find the different contributor's views quite appealing.....


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

Chris,

I have expressed my opinion and believe it reflects that of the membership as a whole. I have not censored anyone but am aware that this type of discussion has led to acrimony in the past and think it is likely to do so again. You are correct in saying that there were no adverse postings on the threads you refer to, but Moderators get a considerable number of PMs from members about things that annoy them that you would not be aware of and this was one of the topics. 

Perhaps other members would like to express their opinions one way of the other. If I am wrong I am quite content to shut up on this point in future; nobody gets it right all the time.

Of course if there is enough support for conspiracy theories amongst the membership maybe we could get a separate forum set up for it. (*)) 

Regards,

Brian


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## Santos (Mar 16, 2005)

Thank you Brian, a fair reply, let the membership speak and I too will abide by the majority view.

As to the members who have to send PMs to Moderators, speak out on the Forum, everybody has a right to a viewpoint, nobody can slate you for that, provided you are not rude or disrespectfull of course.


Chris.


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Here is my view for what it is worth.

If I feel a thread is interesting to me I will participate. If it is not then I wont.
Also, If I feel I cannot add to the discussion because of lack of knowledge etc then, again, I wont post. 

I think that if a thread is being done ad nauseam and becomes a chore then it will probably die a natural death, although you may get the wind up merchants trying to stir things up a bit and then the thread will probably end up being closed down by moderators because the boundaries have been passed.

So if the thread interests you and you can make a positive contribution then you should be allowed to. If it annoys you then pass on it and go to something else. There are a variety of other threads that you can contribute to. I think the mods should only take action if the thread needs to be closed down because of inappropriate behaviour that breaks the site rules.

Only my opinion but there you have it.

Rgds


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## rushie (Jul 5, 2005)

*Since I started it....*

I must admit I have never heard, or knew of any other people's views on her sinking....other than she hit ice and sank...

Some questions that have been raised may actually get the mind thinking.

Perhaps it may be worthwhile to keep the thread going for a little while to allow contributors to air their views, although we need a lot more evidence to suggest anything to the contrary as what is oficially the believed story....so now's the time to do it.!

Cheers,

Rushie


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## Tmac1720 (Jun 24, 2005)

If I may just add my two pence worth to the discussion. There are many "experts" on the Titanic and indeed not to put too fine a point on it there is more myth than fact surrounding this ship. As the person at one time responsible for the archives in Harland and Wolff I can confirm that the company were completely indifferent to the vessel and for many years simply chose to ignore each and every request for information. I was responsible for changing that policy and opening up the archives but at times even I became frustrated at the amount of rubbish generated by these self appointed experts. On several occasions the actual H&W records were declared as incorrect because the facts they presented was at odds with the latest "theory" There will always be debate about what did or did not happen and the search will go on forever for the non existant "smoking gun" Because of the personal abuse I have received in the past I do my best to avoid "Titanic forums" and confine myself to scientific research which I am currently engaged in. Doubtless this exaustive study will attract the usual degree of sceptasicm but that is the price one must pay for presenting scientific fact that refutes popular myth or supposition. From my profile members will see I have been awarded the honour of the MBE for my work on researching Titanic however even that did not deter petty and offensive comments being made on several occasions and I would suppose it was precisely because of this abuse that the moderators such as Brian have decided to monitor this topic closely. I will willingly share my knowledge, such as it is on the Olympic class vessels or the history of Harland and Wolff with all SN members but in doing so only to receive personal abuse is both unnecessary and offensive. (Night)


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## Les Gibson (Apr 24, 2004)

As Chris says, if members are unhappy with a particular posting they should express their opinion on the forum. I started the Titanic theory discussion, and make no apologies for doing so. It is a subject which just won't go away, I believe that it generates interesting comment, and I can't see how this can become any more acrimonius than other topics discussed on the forum. I thought I had found the website for me, but am beginning to doubt it, apparently we can only discuss non-controversial subjects which I find sad. Interestingly, the posting 'I wonder where this thread will go' had some quite disgraceful 'jokes' both in language and content. but the super moderators allowed it (and still allow it) to further degenerate. Are there double standards on the site?


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## PatBaltic22 (Jan 15, 2007)

I know some of the people posting here have been a member of SN for a lot longer than I have, but I am an avid fan of the RMS Titanic and have been studying her for a decade. I do not think there was a conspiracy of any kind. That is my finding. 
This debate may well go on for quite a while. After all, this IS a nautical forum and the Titanic is arguably the most famous ship of all time. As for the moderators, they have the complete authority to do what they need to do, and this is a very hot maritime topic. 
Anyway, we will probably never really know what actaully happened on 4-14-1912 and debates will continue to arise as long as people are still interested in Titanic. I come to believe that even 200 years after her sinking, theorys and debates will always be a part of the Titanic long after her hull disintegrates two and a half miles below the North Atlantic.


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## reklaw (Dec 4, 2005)

I helped start the Titanic Society in South Africa many years ago and up till 1990 was an avid Titanic enthusiast, but unfortunately since the rediscovery, the 1997 movie and the huge amounts of material that has surfaced since then the story has lost a lot of its magic. Somebody once said that if all the hot air spoken about the Titanic was used to raise her she would pop up like a cork. Still, there are many questions which continue to niggle and I doubt if they would ever be answered. The Titanic, love her or loathe her still generates huge amounts of interest. Harland and Wolff built fine ships, even if one was Titanic, the fact that they built her means that their name will be remembered (although for all the wrong reasons) for many generations to come. How many people even know where the Queen Mary was built? 
I think I found closure with the Titanic when I saw many of the incredible images in the "Ghosts of the Abyss" DVD, it was how I wanted to remember her, an empty crumbling ghost ship with an ethereal beauty about her. Those interior shots were awesome and conveyed so much more than the many rehashed black and white pictures I have seen so many times over the years. 
Still, I do enjoy reading how so many newcomers to the tragedy discover the many nuances of it and realise that Titanic is not just a ship that sank, but in reality it is so much more.


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## duquesa (Aug 31, 2006)

*Become a Titanorak*

I do have a very serious issue with the idea of members sending PM's to moderators on topics which are the domain of all. If any member has strong feelings on any subject, HERE is the place to voice them, not sending mysterious emails round the back. As far as I can see, no harm whatsoever has been done by the postings on the Titanic to date and I can see absolutely no reason why it should be consigned to another area of the site, and most certainly not closed down. We have over 12,500 members and just how many have actually contributed to this topic? In relative terms, hardly any. Leave the thing alone, it will run a natural course.


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

duquesa said:


> I do have a very serious issue with the idea of members sending PM's to moderators on topics which are the domain of all. If any member has strong feelings on any subject, HERE is the place to voice them, not sending mysterious emails round the back. As far as I can see, no harm whatsoever has been done by the postings on the Titanic to date and I can see absolutely no reason why it should be consigned to another area of the site, and most certainly not closed down. We have over 12,500 members and just how many have actually contributed to this topic? In relative terms, hardly any. Leave the thing alone, it will run a natural course.


Duquesa,

I think you must be referring to my post #24. There is no intention of consigning this thread elsewhere - I was making a "tongue in cheek" remark that maybe there is a need for a _Conspiracy Theory_ forum.

Brian


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## duquesa (Aug 31, 2006)

*Become a Titanorak*

Hi Brian, Whatever the majority wish (as they say) is fine by me. The point I made about speaking ones mind on the forum rather than by shooting off private emails, I stand by. I do have a rather soft spot for the old "T" as my old man worked on her. This was something of which, as a result of later events, he became very proud and it was an important part of his life, indeed the life of my family. It stlll lingers. I somehow feel that if some of us old salts sit and read too much of the hype being put around about this, and other incidents, we will begin to believe it, and eventually end up as dotty as the folk who are putting forward these theories. Enjoy your day, I intend to if I can coax my creaking bones to function.(Thumb)


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