# Acting Leading Seaman Jack Foreman Mantle VC JX139070 - DEMS Gunner?



## JefferyWhite

As well as his VC, Jack Mantle received an MiD (LG 11.07.1940). The action for which he was awarded his VC is well do***ented. However, although there are a number of published accounts of the action associated with his MiD, I cannot find any primary source material.

A typical example is:

“Mantle already had a reputation, being at that time one of the few naval gunners on convoy protection duty to have shot down a German raider. He had done this with an old-fashioned Lewis light machine gun while serving on a French ship and for this feat had been Mentioned in Despatches.”

Other accounts omit the French ship but include the location as the Thames.

At the outbreak of WWII, Jack Mantle is serving on HMS Aurora. On the 21st Nov. 1939 he is posted to HMS President III and stays there until the 2nd April 1940. Whilst at President he spends short periods on SS Isac 25th Nov. - 5day, SS Henry Mory 30th Nov. - 3 days, SS Wazaristan 6th Dec. - 5 days. He then joins the cable ship SS Bullfinch on 17th Jan. until the 2nd Mar. 1940. It is during this latter period he becomes an Acting Leading Seaman.

If the accounts that he shot down an enemy aircraft with a Lewis gun are true, it must have occurred whilst he was with President, as he then goes back to Portsmouth and is posted to HMS Excellent for a second time. The first was in 1937. I assume both were gunnery courses.

I understand that HMS President III was used to train DEMS gunners. Was Jack Mantle a DEMS gunner? If so, why was he hopping from ship to ship? Finally, the big question for me is, is there any evidence available to support the Lewis gun action?

You will find our VC Gallery at: http://www.ota-southampton.org.uk/vcgallery/index.html

Jeff White
Vice Chairman
Old Tauntonians’ Association


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## Hugh MacLean

Hello Jeff,



> I understand that HMS President III was used to train DEMS gunners. Was Jack Mantle a DEMS gunner? If so, why was he hopping from ship to ship? Finally, the big question for me is, is there any evidence available to support the Lewis gun action?


The London Gazette very rarely lists details of Mentions in Despatches and this is the case with Jack Mantle - only mentioned by name.

HMS PRESIDENT III was an accounting base for DEMS gunners among others. 

Was he employed as a DEMS gunner during this period? More than likely and he would have signed the crew agreements of each of those vessels as a member of the crew. You mention a few merchant ships: ISAC, HENRI MORY, WAZARISTAN and BULLFINCH. He appears to have spent very little time on all of them though. When he goes aboard FOYLEBANK he would not be under the DEMS organisation as this ship was by then HMS under the control of the Admiralty.

HENRI MORY was the only French ship and that wasn't taken into the British registry until July 1940 [seized at Swansea] the month he was killed so not sure why he was aboard prior to 1940. 

Seedies List of Awards to the Merchant Navy is the definitive awards guide to MN and DEMS gunners and I can tell you he is not mentioned by name and there are no awards to any personnel of the ships you mentioned.

I read your post on the RNPS site and I can tell you that your thoughts about his MiD and VC being awarded for the same action on HMS FOYLEBANK are entirely feasable and that would also be my thinking. 

Regards
Hugh


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## JefferyWhite

Hugh

Many thanks for your reply. I will update my post on the RNPS forum, as in the last couple of days I have received a copy of Jack Mantle’s service record and information that his Mid was not for the same action as his VC.

I cannot see from his service record how he could have spent any time with the RNPS, so I think the information on this point is mistaken.

The Navy have done a great detective job on Jack Mantle’s records and I am now as sure as one can be that, given the lapse in time, his MiD is not for the same action as his VC. It is a large email, which I do not feel would be appropriate to post as part of this reply. I could email it to you, if you wish.

My knowledge of DEMS gunners is superficial but I did not think of them hopping from one ship to another. Could it be that Jack Mantle was acting as a relief gunner, while a ship was in port?

Interesting that the Henri Mory is French, as that fits. The Henri Mory may not have been registered until July 1940 but the Navy has Jack Mantle aboard in Nov/Dec 1939. I should explain that his service record does not list any of the merchant ships but shows him at HMS President from the 21st Nov. 1939 to 2nd April 1940. It is the transcript of the P & V Ledgers that show the periods he spent on the merchant ships.

Regards

Jeff


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## Hugh MacLean

JefferyWhite said:


> My knowledge of DEMS gunners is superficial but I did not think of them hopping from one ship to another. Could it be that Jack Mantle was acting as a relief gunner, while a ship was in port?
> Jeff


Yes it is possible but the fact that he appears to be accounted from HMS PRESIDENT III and the mention of being on any merchant ships indicates he would be either under the DEMS organisation or Convoy Commodores staff [usually signalmen/telegraphists] being a gunner it would be the former. You would need to check the official logbooks of the ships in question to see what his status was aboard also ship's movement cards to see if they were in port or at sea during the time he was aboard. 



> I should explain that his service record does not list any of the merchant ships but shows him at HMS President from the 21st Nov. 1939 to 2nd April 1940. It is the transcript of the P & V Ledgers that show the periods he spent on the merchant ships.


This is normal for military service records. Thankfully the P & V ledgers did have this information as it can help map the service of DEMS gunners. The only other way to do it in the absence of this would be to track him from a known ship using crew agreements but if you don't have a ship to start with its usually game over.

I would appreciate a copy of the email so will send you my email address via pm.

Many thanks.

Regards
Hugh


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## JefferyWhite

With many thanks to Hugh, I have made some progress but thought it might be helpful to summaries where I have reached, in case others can throw any light on the matter.

Jack Mantle’s Service Record shows that at the outbreak of WWII, he is serving on HMS Aurora. On the 21st Nov. 1939 he is posted to HMS President III and stays there until the 2nd April 1940.

Extracts of the P & V Ledgers detail that whilst at President he spent short periods on merchant vessels:
SS Isac 25th Nov. – 29th Nov. 1939 
SS Henri Mory 30th Nov. – 2nd Dec. 1939
SS Wazaristan 6th Dec. – 10th Dec. 1939.
He then joins the cable ship SS Bullfinch on 17th Jan. until the 2nd Mar. 1940.

If the accounts that he shot down an enemy aircraft with a Lewis gun are true, it must have occurred whilst he was with President, as he then goes back to Portsmouth and is posted to HMS Excellent for a second time. The first was in 1937. I assume both were gunnery courses? He then joins Foylebank on the 4th June 1940.

Now the SS Henri Mory is a French ship (Completed 1920 - Ateliers & Chantiers de Bretagne, Nantes), which fits with Jack Mantle's reported action. Unfortunately, she is entered on the British Register in July 1940, so TNA hold no records of her movements before that date.

However, according to Arnold Hague's Convoy Database, the Henri Mory was part of Convoy OA.21, 17th October 1939 and is designated Br. So she would appear to be in British control at that time. I cannot find her at TNA in BT 387 (Log Books and Crew Agreements of Allied Foreign Ships Requisitioned or Chartered by HMG), as her name falls between BT 387/27 Description: Henrietie Moller - Hermelin and BT 387/26 Description: Hedera - Helvetia.

One other possible factor is that in Jack Mantle’s service record the Herni Mory is called the Henry Mory but it is difficult to say if that is a more recent transcription error or an error in the original do***ent.

As you will see, the P & V Ledgers has him aboard the SS Isac the day before he joins the SS Henri Mory. So I tried to find her movements but I cannot find any reference to a SS Isac or Isaac or Isaac XXXX, another brick wall! Are there any suggestions as to the identity of this vessel?

Regards

Jeff White


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## Roger Griffiths

ISAC was another French ship. It would appear that she was taken over by HMG and registered in Gibraltar in 1941 official number 174323.
Her movement card can be downloaded here
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D8652848
I don't know if her pre 1941 movements are recorded. Theres only on way to find out. She has logbooks from 1941 thur 1945 in TNA. My guess is she was returned to her French owners after the war.

regards
Roger


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## JefferyWhite

Roger

Many thanks for your information and sorry for the delay in replying. There is something about me and TNA searches that does not gel. I searched several time for Isac and could find nothing!

As you guessed, the movement cards only cover a few months before she was she was taken over in Gib. So like the SS Henri Mory, we know she was in British waters in late 1939 but no information on her movements.

Jeff


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## JefferyWhite

*Correction to Earlier Posts*



> He then joins the cable ship SS Bullfinch on 17th Jan. until the 2nd Mar. 1940.


Correction - I apologies to anyone I have mislead. Jack Mantle did not serve on the cable ship Bullfinch. I jumped to a conclusion and did not do my homework! I was always worried that the vessel in question was described in his P & V Ledgers extract as SS Bullfinch and as far as I could see the cable ship of that name had a number of designations but never SS.

I knew that the cable ship was completed in 1940 but not when in that year. The Tyne & Wear Archives & Museums have kindly sent me the following information: Keel laid on 8 March 1940; Launched on 19 September 1940; Trialed on 21 November 1940. So Jack Mantle could not have served on her.

The vessel that Jack must have served on is the SS Bullfinch 1936, General Steam Navigation Company Ltd., sold in 1963 to the Commodore Shipping Co. And renamed Norman Commodore. TNA have her BT movement cards but they start at Card No. 2. The first entry on Card 2 1940 is Dunkirk 28/4, so Jack Mantle had left the Bullfinch before this card was started.

Regards

Jeff


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