# Anyone remember this ??



## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

The Radar Equation - Radartutorial







www.radartutorial.eu


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

sparkie2182 said:


> The Radar Equation - Radartutorial
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I used the equations for my Ticket at Riversdale !

David

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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Did you make much use of the equation whilst operating or maintaining ships' radars at sea?


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

T'was my next question,Ron.


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

Then there was the Woodpecker.....



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duga_radar


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## DickGraham (Oct 2, 2017)

Yep I do remember the Radar Range Equation. Back in '76 when it became a requirement for R/Os to have a radar ticket 
Marconi set up a correspondence course for their R/Os which I got landed with. I took it away with me on my next trip with a genuine willingness to complete it. However when I got to the Radar Range Equation (chapter 4 I think so not very far in) I was completely stymied - didn't understand maths (and still don't). Contacted my tutor about it (by post in those days) but he was no real help so the course stalled at that point. I contacted Marconi, explained the problem, and requested study leave. This was granted and on my next leave I attended and passed the BoT Radar Maintenance Certificate course at Aberdeen Technical College no problem.


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## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

david.hopcroft said:


> Yes, I used the equations for my Ticket at Riversdale !
> 
> David
> 
> +


I took my BOT radar same time as PMG in 1967.
If that equation subject had been in the theory exam, I would have failed. In fact I cannot remember much about Radar theory anyway.
Much the same as Logs/anti Logs and Kirchhoff Law


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

P.Arnold said:


> I took my BOT radar same time as PMG in 1967.
> If that equation subject had been in the theory exam, I would have failed. In fact I cannot remember much about Radar theory anyway.
> Much the same as Logs/anti Logs and Kirchhoff Law


Hello Ron

My first trip with my new ticket - Nr 2571, 8th July 1964 - was with a BTH RMS2, so the answer was.........err............No

David

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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Gents,

Don't be so downplussed! Whether it was useful or not, you have to think out of the box!

I once had reason to go to my daughter's secondary school (I think that I owed a couple of month's tuition ;-)).

While waiting to be received, there was a lad sat next to me. He asked,"Are you Emily's Dad?".
"Yes", I said,"What are you waiting here for, shouldn't you be in class?".

He explained that he was in his final year and was flunking Calculus. He didn't see the point of it, it was just an exercise in torture of young minds!

I thought a moment and then asked him,"Do you like Formula 1?".
"Yes!", he replied enthusiastically.
"How do they know if the engines are performing at their peak?", I asked him.

He said he didn't know. I then started to explain cylinder cards to him: Pressure, ignition lag, expansion power stroke etc. I finished by saying that the area under the curve was the actual power produced in the cylinder which could then be compared with the theoretical power per cylinder, BMEP (?). And how do we calculate the area under the graph? With calculus! He said that he was very happy to know now that calculus actually had a use and that he was determined to do better!

Don't ever leave anything in a pocket with a hole in it...........!

Cheers,
Dave


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## Freo (Nov 4, 2005)

sparkie2182 said:


> Then there was the Woodpecker.....
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duga_radar


I worked for Lockheed Martin (Australia) for 7 years before retiring, at the JORN facilities both TX and RX in Western Australia. I was on the maintenance side, principally operating and maintaining the power stations and all auxiliary equipment. Fascinating place, but secretive in its results. Best job I ever had, fly in and fly out, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I remember the Radar Range Equation ... it must have been simpler 50 years ago!

That Marconi correspondence course would have been them trying to save money on study leave. Study Leave was an entitlement after 12 months sea service. I did Radar at Hull - 16 weeks and it was better than all the PMG course.

I saw that Woodpecker set up on a program about Chernobyl. Looks a mess compared with Fylingdales Early Warning set up near Scarborough.

Freo, I heard bits and pieces about that over the horizon radar, JORN, I think AWA had something to do with it. They should have called it the Kookaburra, that would have been a laugh.

John T


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

By the early 70s.....you would have been unlikely to have been given a job without the radar maintenance ticket.My main problem with this sort of "background" study was that it took time away from the practical training which we given.....it was only a 16 week course. An inability to identify a faulty klystron whilst being fluent in transposition of radar range mathematics seemed pointless to me.

It still does......

At the Fleetwood Nautical there seemed to be a hell of a lot of emphasis on maths......since subsequently becoming a lecturer myself and learning how "things work" in the business....I suspect it was to do with job creation.

Jobs for the boys.


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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Good to see you posting, Sparkie.

The onset of "H&S", method statements, risk analysis and all the other paperwork! Then there are the ISOs, 9001, 14001 and the ilk. And don't forget your safety line if you over one metre above ground level! I took an interest in radar maintenance, because it was electromechanical. Just an idle interest, mind you! Hats off to the sparkies and their magic boxes.
Rgds.
Dave


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

Many thanks Dave.

Gracious as ever.


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

makko said:


> Good to see you posting, Sparkie.
> 
> The onset of "H&S", method statements, risk analysis and all the other paperwork! Then there are the ISOs, 9001, 14001 and the ilk. And don't forget your safety line if you over one metre above ground level! I took an interest in radar maintenance, because it was electromechanical. Just an idle interest, mind you! Hats off to the sparkies and their magic boxes.
> Rgds.
> Dave


With H&S in mind, how were you supposed to change a broken drive belt on top of this.. Especially with a much older scared stiff Secunny sent up to help you ??

David
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## makko (Jul 20, 2006)

Those were the days, when men were men, David! 

Then again, in certain places in Middlesbrough, Royal Docks, Clifford Pier or Danny's Bar, it is said that the women were men too! Those were the days!

Rgds.
Dave


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

Funny that Trotterdot never mentioned that.....
He's from Middlesbrough !!!!!


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

makko said:


> Those were the days, when men were men, David!
> 
> Then again, in certain places in Middlesbrough, Royal Docks, Clifford Pier or Danny's Bar, it is said that the women were men too! Those were the days!
> 
> ...


Howay Dave - leave our women alone. Middlesbrough anthem to Boro women: "Robin Hood, Robin Hood, brave courageous and old". Norwegian sailors couldn't get enough of them!

John T

PS For the uninitiated, the "Robin Hood" was a very salubrious pub not far from Middlesbrough Dock.


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## gw4xxf (6 mo ago)

I did my BOT Radar Maintenance course ticket at Bristol Tech in spring1965.
Much harder than the technical side of the PMG.
I do not remember being taught that complicated formula.
We were repair technicians, not design engineers.
The only time it might have been useful was when spotting the Pico volcano in the Canaries at what appeared
to be 48 miles but was in fact 96.
That was because the Rx picked up the very strong bounce by missing a pulse gap.
Always fun for the experienced Mate who tricked the less experienced into thinking their dead-reckoning was way out!

As for H&S, well on my last ship, the Shell DORCASIA/GSZE, I had to climb the mast to repair the radar scanner.
In the gently rolling Indian Ocean and light ship, a bit dodgy looking down one minute to the sea on the port side and the next at the sea on the starboard side.
So, donned the safety harness thingy and tested it out by a test drop of about a yard.
Knocked the wind out of me so I dread to think what it would have done to me over a higher drop.
Probably would have crushed my lungs - still not as much mess that if I had fallen onto the deck from a great height!
Not a secunny but a very strapping black chap from east London (not East London SA) was seconded to assist.
Of course I was just in shorts to get some bronzy but he was wearing a shirt as well.
I made some comment about that to which he replied that he suffered terribly from sunburn.
Weird what one remembers from 50 years ago!


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

gw4xxf said:


> I did my BOT Radar Maintenance course ticket at Bristol Tech in spring1965.
> Much harder than the technical side of the PMG.
> I do not remember being taught that complicated formula.
> We were repair technicians, not design engineers.
> ...


I remember that I also took down the scanner drive motor because it was arcing like mad so that the screen was just a mass of radial spikes. . The Lecky did the slip ring servicing, but was distinctly uninterested in helping me put it back. I did though take my camera with me to show I had actually been up there. This was 1967.

David

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## DickGraham (Oct 2, 2017)

Just found my Radar Ticket 😁


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## J. Davies (Dec 29, 2010)

sparkie2182 said:


> The Radar Equation - Radartutorial
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We learned the main radar range formula as part of the DOT radar ticket, mine was 1979 in Bristol, but instantly forgot it after the exams. In one of my subsequent careers I was a radar technician with Kelvin Hughes, then service manager, and must have been up and down radar masts hundreds of times. That formula never once crossed my mind!


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

A friend of mine who is a retired electrical design engineer responsible for the fire detection and control systems in nuclear submarine construction took a look at my MRGC and DTI Radar notes......he is a veteran radio amateur.

He reckoned the content was at least as high as his HND but was completed in a fraction of the time.....his apprenticeship was 5 years....and obviously didn't include morse/regs/Solas etc.

The employers got a bargain.


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## gwzm (Nov 7, 2005)

I got my BoT Radar Maintenance Cert. at the James Watt College, Greenock in February 1963. The radar equation was day one of the course and never again used it in the real world. BTH RMS1 could be exciting with exploding 15kV capacitors in the modulator and water in the waveguide. The RMS2 never missed a beat. The Marconi Radiolocator mk4 could be “interesting”, like trying to perform a “gynaecological” procedure to replace the trigatron valve while lying on my back with one hand in in the access hatch to find it while the drawer is trying to slide in and out as the ship rolls ‘cos the locking catches are broken. Oh, and the other memorable one was getting the call that the radar wasn’t working and finding the receiver IF strip was burning nicely - the on board spares weren’t going to fix that. Luckily we were inbound in the Thames at the time.
Happy days,
gwzm


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## ronstringer56 (10 mo ago)

david.hopcroft said:


> With H&S in mind, how were you supposed to change a broken drive belt on top of this.. Especially with a much older scared stiff Secunny sent up to help you ??
> 
> David
> +





















While shipping occasional seas over the bow during a 1960 North Atlantic winter crossing, I repaired a fault in the radar scanner unit in the rain.... after hanging on to the safety line and crossing the slippery teak-clad fore-deck to the mast-house shown in the top photo then climbing the ladder to the exposed platform see in the second photo. The ship was pitching and rolling, so that at times I was looking down into the sea rather than onto the deck. No safety harness or any other crew member to accompany me - "Just get on with the job lad." Third R/Os were easy to replace in those days and as it was my first ship, I didn't know any better. I was much more worried about loosing the tools (due to the motion and the wind on the flat cross-tree) than I was about my personal safety. It was that ship and that location but not that scanner, it was a much earlier one, the original Marconi Radiolocator IV.


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

...... Character building.

It's at times like when the ability to transform complex radar propagation formulae really comes into its own.


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## gw4xxf (6 mo ago)

Again, it is odd what one remembers from 60 years ago but have never used since taking (and failing!) A Level Physics.
Newton's formulae of motion:
s = u t + ½ a t squared
As for Herr Ohm and his famous Law - once learned and never forgotten and being used all the time when tinkering.

I could never get to grips with Herr Doppler and his formula to do with fire engines approaching and receding though.


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

The advent of the Marconi "Apollo" Rx with its "Startrek" style Nixie tubes brought a great deal of excitement when it was introduced to the FNC.
A lot less excitement was to be had when the introduction of the first logic classes took place.....the fundamentals of how the counting took place.
Boolean algebra was added to the ever increasing list of subjects to be mastered and instantly forgotten.

The trickiest part of the Atlanta was replacing the drive-cord.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

"The trickiest part of the Atlanta was replacing the drive-cord."

Was it ever ... thank god for Nixi tubes.

John T


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## gw4xxf (6 mo ago)

The Redifon R408 was the bestest Rx ever.
Not a Nixi in sight.
Changing those Lilliput lamps was a tricky job,
not to mention the steel wire drive cord.
Never had to do those on board, just on the couple I acquired 2nd hand
for my shack after swallowing the anchor.


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## spaarks (May 1, 2009)

I vaguely remember the Radar Range Equation being on the syllabus in 1964, though I don't think we had to actually learn it. In the Practical Exam the examiner put in a superconducting valve somewhare, but he had to talk everyone through it. Up the mast - I remember many a freezing hour up the mast in the Baltic winter to fix the awful box under the aerial, I think it was RX/TX - the preamp and maybe the magnetron. The hi-voltage PSU had selenium rectifiers, stacked in long brown bakelite tubes. They stunk when burning out. Can't remember what make it was, maybe ex-admiralty. Or maybe my mind is failing!


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## Jumbuk34 (Mar 27, 2019)

gw4xxf said:


> I did my BOT Radar Maintenance course ticket at Bristol Tech in spring1965.
> Much harder than the technical side of the PMG.
> I do not remember being taught that complicated formula.
> We were repair technicians, not design engineers.
> ...


Did my radar Cert at Bristol in '67 too and the Radar Range Equation was part of it - never had any use for it whilst at sea for twelve years though


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