# Q E 2



## R58484956

According to reports "from high places" (where in Dubai or Uk) the QE2 will be returning to Southampton at the end of the year. There is a remote possiblity
that she could be returning to the North Atlantic run.
This info was noted in a local paper here in the UK.


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## shamrock

hmmm...I can't see it happening myself...

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4453206.QE2_may_be_coming_back_to_Southampton/

Especially as there will be another QE in place next year. But if she does come home, she will be given a very warm welcome, I'm sure


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## Pompeyfan

Interesting story. The Echo is usually pretty accurate with news. I am not so sure she will be back on the Atlantic run. But it would seem her stay in Dubai is going to be shorter than first thought.

David


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## shamrock

The problem of having her home and in service again would be three fold.

Cunard would no doubt demand a change of name if she is to go to another owner/operator. They have said all along that she dragged down the image of modern cruise ships due to her age, so Cunard having her back is a non starter.

SOLAS 2010 alterations would be costly...but not altogether impossible. She has had around £50m spent on alterations over the last 10-15 years, much of that in added tiny inner-inner cabins (lovingly known as the broom cupboards) that can be stripped out very easily. She would need to be fully 2010 compliant before any ideas of re-introducing her to service could be considered.

So that leaves the problem of new owner/operator. There is one person who totally despises the thought of British icons being sold to foreign investors, he has immense business a***en, he is well respected in alot of circles...mainly due to his ability to take on the big boys and win against all the odds, one of his greatest success stories celebrated it's 25th anniversary yesterday...Virgin Atlantic.

Sir Richard Branson has the sphericals to bring QE2 home and I think he would get the backing to bring her home and get her refurbished and back into service, as a traditional ocean liner on the transatlantic route. He would do well cos so many people love the ship and there is such a huge feeling of anger about her loss to a foreign country at was a pittance.


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## Billieboy

Get her back and classed with SOLAS 2010 clear, for less than 150M total; will be a bargain to beat all bargains. she wasn't built to cruise anyway!


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## Pompeyfan

Billieboy is right. She was not built for cruising, but as a transatlantic passenger liner. But she is possibly too old for that now. Her future is not looking good at present, but I think we all knew that deep down.

David


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## pompey dave

*QE2 back in southampton.*

herad on local radio saying theres a chance the QE2 could be coming back to southampton and being used as a liner again by as early as the end of next year i think.any one else hear this? http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/4453206.QE2_may_be_coming_back_to_Southampton/


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## Coastie

*IF* that is true and not just speculation and she *DOES* come back, it'll be nice to see her in home waters again doing what she does best.


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## shamrock

Update from Nakheel....

http://www.business24-7.ae/Articles...6242009_145e082bb7274fc3b3577b485bc3f61d.aspx


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## Pompeyfan

shamrock said:


> Update from Nakheel....
> 
> http://www.business24-7.ae/Articles...6242009_145e082bb7274fc3b3577b485bc3f61d.aspx


Looks like the reports of her coming back are wrong then?.

David


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## shamrock

Pompeyfan said:


> Looks like the reports of her coming back are wrong then?.
> 
> David


Tbh David, I am not sure that Nakheel know what they are doing with the ship. They seemed to have many ideas when it came to bidding for her but now they have her, everything appears to have fallen apart...and I really cannot believe that it all has something to do with the economy since Nakheel have many fingers in alot of big building/developement projects in the Middle East and elsewhere.

It almost sounds like Carnival Corporation just got rid of QE2 to the first company with the right cash in hand and really did not give a monkey's behind as to what happened to her after the dotted line was signed and cash handed over. As far as they are concerned QE2 is past tense and out of their hair, so Nakheel can do whatever they want to her.


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## Jeff Taylor

Another website is quoting rumors of an18month charter as an accomodation vessel in the gulf region, but no specifics.


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## shamrock

Jeff Taylor said:


> Another website is quoting rumors of an18month charter as an accomodation vessel in the gulf region, but no specifics.


That sounds more likely to be the old Independence (Oceanic) ex NCL towed out of San Francisco under a cloud of fines from the EPA. She is also in Dubai but at anchor rather than berthed anywhere in port.


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## Jeff Taylor

Maritimematters has a recent photo of Indepence posted riding at anchor off Dubai. She is supposedly owned by one of the breakers now.


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## shamrock

Jeff Taylor said:


> Maritimematters has a recent photo of Indepence posted riding at anchor off Dubai. She is supposedly owned by one of the breakers now.


I saw that photo too, she looks pretty reasonable, albeit from a distance.

I do wonder if Nakheel might send QE2 to the breakers if the price of scrap steel goes higher than it is currently. The Alang & Chittagong beaches have spaces left yet Regal Empress & Independence are at anchor, along with many other ships (and that number will grow significantly by the end of this year as the 2010 SOLAS regulations start to bite).

At the end of the day everything has a price and no matter how many times Nakheel try and persuade people they have plans for QE2's future in Dubai, there must be the proverbial line in the sand that if the costs do go too high, they can and will turn round and say that she is 'not economically viable because....'.

NCL did the same with Independence, they did the same with Norway...heck they did the same with Big U, but it all came to nothing in the end.


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## Coastie

shamrock said:


> The problem of having her home and in service again would be three fold.
> 
> Cunard would no doubt demand a change of name if she is to go to another owner/operator. They have said all along that she dragged down the image of modern cruise ships due to her age, so Cunard having her back is a non starter.
> 
> SOLAS 2010 alterations would be costly...but not altogether impossible. She has had around £50m spent on alterations over the last 10-15 years, much of that in added tiny inner-inner cabins (lovingly known as the broom cupboards) that can be stripped out very easily. She would need to be fully 2010 compliant before any ideas of re-introducing her to service could be considered.
> 
> *So that leaves the problem of new owner/operator. There is one person who totally despises the thought of British icons being sold to foreign investors, he has immense business a***en, he is well respected in alot of circles...mainly due to his ability to take on the big boys and win against all the odds, one of his greatest success stories celebrated it's 25th anniversary yesterday...Virgin Atlantic.*
> 
> *Sir Richard Branson has the sphericals to bring QE2 home and I think he would get the backing to bring her home and get her refurbished and back into service, as a traditional ocean liner on the transatlantic route. He would do well cos so many people love the ship and there is such a huge feeling of anger about her loss to a foreign country at was a pittance.*




As much as I would LOVE to believe you, he can't be *THAT* good, he didn't manage to save Concord, did he? What makes you think he could save QE2?


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## Pompeyfan

I have a horrible suspicion that this is the after the horse has bolted scenario.

If there had been any possibility of keeping her here, it would have happened. Like P&O with Canberra, Cunard would not have wanted to have sold her to another company to keep her in service, she was too popular, just like Canberra. They would have lost customers. 

Selling her would have been a purely financial thing. They would have no sentiment as a business, just like they didn't with Canberra. Better to scrap her than see her as a rival.

On the other hand, finance would have been the issue regarding their upkeep, QE2 like Canberra would have been costing more to maintain. I went aboard Black Watch a couple of years ago and her Chief Engineer told me it was a never ending battle to keep her maintained. She is 37 years old, and certainly showing her age.

I expect Cunard would have thought there was no threat to QE2 going to Dubai, just as there was no threat with Queen Mary going to Long Beach. Deep down they possibly thought it may not work, but would not care a less with money in the bank.

David


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## Lksimcoe

Pompeyfan

I agree with you. The other thing to consider that sure as shooting, Carnival made Nakheel sign an agreement that she wouldn't be put back into active service. That way she can't compete with the new QE. I beleive Cunard had that same form of agreement with the QM and original QE, but in the QE's case, her attempted rebirth as Seawise University would not have been competition.

THe only way the QE2 could come back to Southampton would have to be as a stasis ship.

In my humble opinion of course


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## shamrock

At least Black Prince is going to a new home and to a new life...and staying in service too...which is great news for those who have cherished the little ship for so long.

Another rumour about QE2 is that she is an option for charter to South Africa as accommodation for the 2010 World Cup.


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## fred henderson

The major problem with returning QE2 to a sea-going career is that the marine alloy used to construct her superstructure is way past its "best before" date. Carnival had major costs replacing an ever increasing number of panels, but she is now at the stage where the entire superstucture needs to come off and be replaced. She was replaced by QM2 and placed on less demanding cruises because QE2 was suffering increasing structural failures on each rough transatlantic crossing.

In my view she will never return to service.

Fred (Thumb)


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## Lksimcoe

Fred. 

Maybe the best thing for her IS the knackers then.


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## Rutts

Remember P&O's Oriana languished around for 20 years after being sold to Asian interests before being scrapped.

She too went to totally unfamiliar surroundings and nationalities as QE2 has gone to as well. 

Cheers


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## shamrock

One little snippet for the brain cells to think about, Norway was due to be purchased from Genting Group (owner of Star Cruises/owner of NCL) in order to become a floating hotel in Dubai. The deal fell through...after the ship had been to Dubai. She was then taken to Alang and broken up.

Then came QE II on the 'for sale' list. She was, I believe, cheaper than Norway and was snapped up with very little negotiation. So Nakheel got their second choice and their third choice is sat at anchor in Dubai still, Independence. Who knows, they might even want a fourth choice, Big U.....the breakers at Alang have a registered office in the US in Maryland, so they wouldn't break the US interests only rule now attached to Big U sale


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## fred henderson

Norway was towed from Germany to Malaysia, before she was sold for scrap. There was a rumour that she may join QE2 in Dubai, but it came to nothing. 
Dubai paid $100 million for QE2, far more than the scrap value of Norway.

Fred (Thumb)


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## shamrock

Fred, sorry, but Norway was on the beach before QEII was sold. The only old ship capable of joining QEII would be either Independence (which is anchored off Dubai City) or Big U that is still in Philly.


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## fred henderson

shamrock said:


> Fred, sorry, but Norway was on the beach before QEII was sold.


Yes and no Ally. I do not want to split hairs, but Blue Lady docked in Pipavav, India on 2 August 2006 for pre-demolition inspection. Approval was granted, but this sparked a flurry of legal action and Blue Lady was anchored off Alang while court arguments were considered. Final court approval to demolish the ship was given on 11 September 2007 and the ceremonial commencement of work performed by 4 December 2007. She was then moved onto the beach.

The sale of QE2 was announced on 18 June 2007. It is my recollection that the idea of Blue Lady joining QE2 in Dubai was floated after the QE2 announcement, but before the final court order, in a last ditch attempt to preserve both ships.

Fred (Thumb)


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## shamrock

In relation to Norway, this is what happened in chronological order with her, all well before QEII was confirmed as being on the market...

http://www.ssmaritime.com/norway-timeline2.htm

NCL/Star Cruises/Genting Group broke many international rules with Norway, they also did the same with Independence and were fined heavily by the US EPA in respect to Independence. Big U is for sale for US interests only but the intermediary that bought both Norway and Independence has a registered office in ***berland, Maryland, US, so potentially could bypass the 'no outside buyer' rule in regards to Big U. Since Genting/Star/NCL have broken rules twice already, they would not hesitate to break them a third time. Had they owned QEII, then she too would have gone straight to Alang rather than Dubai. Even so, Carnival are very profit orientated, so they sold her to the first decent bid that came along. Queen Mary was sold for a similar amount in 1967 to what QEII has been sold for this time around. I hazard a guess that Queen Mary will still be around and recogniseable long after QEII is nothing more than a memory since Nakheel really do not seem to have had anything concrete in their future plans for her.


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## shamrock

fred henderson said:


> Yes and no Ally. I do not want to split hairs, but Blue Lady docked in Pipavav, India on 2 August 2006 for pre-demolition inspection. Approval was granted, but this sparked a flurry of legal action and Blue Lady was anchored off Alang while court arguments were considered. Final court approval to demolish the ship was given on 11 September 2007 and the ceremonial commencement of work performed by 4 December 2007. She was then moved onto the beach.
> 
> The sale of QE2 was announced on 18 June 2007. It is my recollection that the idea of Blue Lady joining QE2 in Dubai was floated after the QE2 announcement, but before the final court order, in a last ditch attempt to preserve both ships.
> 
> Fred (Thumb)


I won't cause an international wotsit here but if you read the link on my previous post you will see that Norway was renamed Blue Lady in August 2003 and sold to Bangladeshi breakers in December 2003. She was then resold to Indian breakers in 2006, which predates QEII going onto the market. Norway was the first choice as a floating hotel for Dubai but red tape and alot of problems with dodgy dealings/back & forth sailing and paperwork scuppered the plans making them non viable. Cynicals (myself included) feel that it was all done on purpose as Genting were determined that no-one would have the ship once they had finished with her, she was essentially to vanish from view permanently.

QEII's future is by no means assured unfortunately, despite assurances from Nakheel. With the thought of having her funnel chopped off and replaced with a glass penthouse and other such undignified changes allegedly being considered, she will never be the original gracious lady that we all know and love so much...least not until she is able to come home where she belongs, but I suspect a clause was typed into the sales contract that if Nakheel did fail to do what they planned with her, they would be duty bound to send her to India or Bangladesh to be scrapped and not to somewhere else for restoration.


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## R396040

Just hope QE11 doesnt end up like her namesake Queen Elizabeth in HK. I saw QM in California a few years ago and was saddened by her too.
Stuart Henderson


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## fred henderson

I agree that the Norway/Blue Lady saga was very murky, but if you will forgive me Ally, I think that your dates are incorrect. Norway’s tragic boiler explosion only took place in Miami on 25 May 2003. She did not arrive in Bremerhaven until 23 September 2003. She was employed as an accommodation vessel before leaving under tow on 23 May 2005 and arriving at Port Klang, Malaysia on 10 August 2005.

There was an attempt made to sell her for scrap in December 2005, but this was foiled by legal action by Greenpeace and others. Norway was sold in April 2006 to Bridgend Shipping Limited of Monrovia, Liberia, renamed Blue Lady in preparation for scrapping. One month later she was again sold, to Haryana Ship Demolition Pvt. Ltd., and was subsequently left anchored in waters off the Malaysian coast after the government of Bangladesh refused Blue Lady entry into their waters due to the onboard asbestos. Later, the ship was towed to Fujairah, UAE, probably as a diversionary tactic, then to Pipavav.

I believe that as rumors of a Dubai liner purchase began to emerge and it was wrongly assumed that the ship was Blue Lady. There was a new story every day at the time. 

Fred (Thumb)


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## fred henderson

shamrock said:


> Carnival are very profit orientated, so they sold her to the first decent bid that came along. Queen Mary was sold for a similar amount in 1967 to what QEII has been sold for this time around.


Not quite Ally. Queen Mary was sold to Long Beach for $3,450,000 in 1967. QE2 was sold to Dubai for $100,000,000, considerably in excess of any likely scrap price in 2006. Ship scrap prices have fallen since then, because of the world economic situation. Adjusting for inflation, Carnival sold QE2 for roughly five times the Queen Mary price.

Possibly there is some confusion with the financial arrangements in California. In 1980 Wrather Port Properties Ltd., a minor subsidiary of Wrather Corporation entered into a 66-year lease to manage Queen Mary and the adjoining port facilities. In 1988 Walt Disney bought the parent Wrather Corporation for $152,000,000. The agreement included the management of The Queen Mary.

Fred (Thumb)


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## shamrock

*QEII on the move? Looks like she might be.....*



> July 10 (Bloomberg) -- Dubai World plans to berth the Queen Elizabeth 2 ship at the V&A Waterfront in Cape Town and convert it into a luxury hotel, Business Day reported, citing Ronel Bester, spokewoman for the South African Tourism Ministry.
> 
> The company is applying for berthing rights from the National Port Authority, the Johannesburg-based newspaper said.
> 
> Dubai World is in talks with a South African company to manage the hotel, the newspaper said.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601116&sid=acKdKtBFhkW4

Do Dubai World own the port facilities in Cape Town...I know they have fingers in other port city pies...?


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## shamrock

Another report here...

http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=75394



> IN WHAT must be the most ambitious hotel project yet in SA, investment group Dubai World plans to berth the ageing QE2 passenger ship permanently at Cape Town’s V&A Waterfront and convert it into a luxury hotel.
> 
> Dubai World subsidiary Nakheel acquired the ship in 2007, and took ownership last November after she was retired from active service. Dubai World is applying for berthing rights from the National Port Authority, and the Department of Tourism is weighing up the desirability of the plans.
> 
> Ronel Bester, the department’s spokeswoman, said yesterday that the department was aware of the plans, but several approvals were required before any decision could be made.
> 
> “The National Ports Authority has to decide on the practical implications of berthing (and) a decision has to be taken by the department on the desirability of allowing the QE2 to berth in Cape Town in the light of the available accommodation in the city and surrounds. We are consulting with the industry and the department will take a decision by the end of next week,” Bester said.
> 
> ...cont../..


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## K urgess

One wonders if she will just turn east if she leaves the Gulf.


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## shamrock

This really looks like it will happen...

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090711/NATIONAL/707109791/1010

One paragraph especially lends itself to the possibility that the ship is destined to go elsewhere...



> ....A spokeswoman for Nakheel, the property arm of Dubai World, said: “In addition to alternative locations in Dubai, a number of ports in Africa and the Middle East have expressed interest in hosting her as a stationary hotel.”....


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## duquesa

*Qe2*

I wouldn't read anything into reports from Nakheel. They'll dump the ship in a flash if it suits them, make no mistake.


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## shamrock

The statements are from the parent company, not Nakheel...and it is well known that Cape Town is short of hotel space for the FIFA Worl Cup next year and since Dubai World own port interests down there (and Nakheel) then moving the ship to Cape Town would be sensible.


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## duquesa

*Qe2*

Sense?? For Nakheel read Dubai World.


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## shamrock

Nakheel have FINALLY ADMITTED they had plans to shift the ship elsewhere...

http://business.maktoob.com/20090000007446/Nakheel_admits_QE2_may_leave_Dubai/Article.htm



> *Dubai-based developer Nakheel on Sunday said it is looking at shifting the Queen Elizabeth 2 to another location, just months after the luxury cruise liner arrived in Dubai.
> *
> "In addition to alternative locations in Dubai, other ports in the Middle East and Africa have also expressed an interest in hosting this impressive maritime icon," a Nakheel spokesperson told news agency Zawya Dow Jones by email. "Nakheel is currently evaluating these alternatives."
> 
> Cape Town's V&A Waterfront has been mooted as one possible location for the historic transatlantic ocean liner.
> 
> On Friday, South Africa's Business Day newspaper reported that Dubai World, the government-owned conglomerate that purchased the ship for $100 million in 2007, plans to berth the ship at the V&A Waterfront in Cape Town and convert it into a luxury hotel.....cont../..


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## Mendi

Won't fit in the waterfront, maybe Duncan Dock. Perfect for 2010, but beyond that I doubt it.


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## gaelsail

shamrock said:


> Nakheel have FINALLY ADMITTED they had plans to shift the ship elsewhere...
> 
> http://business.maktoob.com/20090000007446/Nakheel_admits_QE2_may_leave_Dubai/Article.htm


Be cautious about this website- I'm getting warnings/site unsafe from Norton.


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## shamrock

The move from Dubai has been confirmed...

http://www.gowealthy.com/gowealthy/...eel-to-move-Queen-Elizabet-1247468160427.html

Just a question of when & where to.


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## SN NewsCaster

*QE2 'could be moved to Cape Town' (BBC News)*

The QE2 could be moved to another port as work to turn it into a floating hotel off Dubai is delayed due to the global recession.

More from BBC News...


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## shamrock

The move appears now to have been confirmed, the ship si to go to South Africa for 18 months...

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090717/NATIONAL/907179973/-1/NEWS



> Nakheel Hotels, the owner of the Queen Elizabeth 2, has confirmed its intent to temporarily move the world famous cruise liner from Dubai to South Africa.
> 
> In a statement, the company said a proposed 18-month move to Cape Town had the support of the South African Ministry for Environment and Tourism.
> 
> Cape Town is one of the host cities for football’s World Cup, which takes place next summer, and the QE2’s stay would coincide with this.
> 
> ...cont../..


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## SN NewsCaster

*QE2 to be moved to South Africa (BBC News)*

The QE2 is to be moved to South Africa as work to turn the ship into a floating hotel off Dubai is delayed during the recession.

More from BBC News...


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## shamrock

QE2 will be moved within the next 2 months..

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=2822&art_id=vn20090721115030322C168157&set_id=


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## voyagerx1

*Qe2*



pompey dave said:


> herad on local radio saying theres a chance the QE2 could be coming back to southampton and being used as a liner again by as early as the end of next year i think.any one else hear this? http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/4453206.QE2_may_be_coming_back_to_Southampton/


Who's going to crew her? british crews or the mixed bag of philipinos, chinese and other cheap labour natives. Maggie Thatcher has a lot to answer for from back then...british crews sitting on the dole queus....


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## Peter Eccleson

VoyagerX1 - I guess that depends on her flag when/if she sails under her own power (nearly wrote 'steam' there). Believe she has an eastern European caretaker Master at present.
Recent TV interview with capt Warwick (retd) claimed she was still in good enough condition to sail with minimal crew to The Cape.


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## shamrock

According to Maritime Matters, QE2 is now in drydock and receiving maintenance apparently to get her ready to make the voyage to Cape Town. She was assisted by tug Smit Lingga yesterday. No word as yet as to how long the drydocking will last.


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## RGascoyne

*QE2 capable of sailing under her own engines?*

I read today that her new owners in Dubai are considering moving QE2 down to Cape Town, as a hotal ship for the upcoming World Cup. They also partly own the V&A Waterfront property.
I thought I read on SN some time ago that they had, or intended to, remove her engines as part of their Dubai refit. Does anyone know if her gear are still there and in working order, or would they have to tow her to Cape Town under their possible plans?
It seems that they have massive debts and so have put the refit on hold, and this might be one way to make the old girl pay off for them in the short to medium term.


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## Peter Martin

*Pity!*

What a shame! Richard B would have, for sure, lavished money on her and set her on the N Atlantic run renamed as "Virgin Queen"!


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## shamrock

More choppy waters regarding the forthcoming shift to Cape Town...

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=180&art_id=vn20090903114253530C685672


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## voyagerx1

*Qe2*



R58484956 said:


> According to reports "from high places" (where in Dubai or Uk) the QE2 will be returning to Southampton at the end of the year. There is a remote possiblity
> that she could be returning to the North Atlantic run.
> This info was noted in a local paper here in the UK.


Pity the british merchant navy can't get her crewed with british seamen, then it would be truely remarkable........


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## wildcat45

Sorry and sad to have to say. 

She might end up in a different port. She might spend the next decade being pushed for quay to jetty. Sir Richard, Stellios, or whoever may be rumoured, the red paint on her funnel will turn pink, she'll get faded and weather worn. Now and then a UK paper wil do a little feature on the "fallen queen."

We all know it deep down. She is on a long and heartbreaking final journey that will only end one way - on the oil soaked sands of the Bay of Bengal.


Dan


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## Peter Eccleson

Any update on QE2? I was in Dubai a couple of months ago and she was still there and all lit up at night. The owners are broke (although I believe that Sheikh Kalifa of Abu Dhabi has bailed them out in return for majority shares).


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## kewl dude

*QEII twin Reactor Rooms?*

On this thread:

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=44900 Props

Post # 4 Mad Landsman provided this link:

http://www.roblightbody.com/liners/qe-2/1987_Refit/index.htm

where I found the attached: 

plan double bottom.jpg

post re-powering engine room plan.

Can anyone enlighten me what is the story about the “Reactor Room” outboard of both main propulsion electric motors?

Thank You,
Greg Hayden


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## Varley

When using power electronics, as the propulsion motors do, there can be excessive harmonics. The reactors (better known as chokes) are used as part of the filtering to remove them. Power transistors instead of thyristors (which I think were QE2s cycloconverters) produce rather less in the way of unwanted waveforms but the latter - because their control method is by switching on part way through the source voltage half cycle result in a load waveform that is not sinusoidal. Non-sinusoidal waveforms are not. They are a mixture of sinusoidal ones of different frequency and amplitude - this is where the 'harmonics' come from. 

Those sailing with electronic shaft generators will also have come across hermonic filters - implication of harmonics is unwanted heating effect in any rotating machine 'downstream' of the inverter.

It may sound nuclear but its not boring old steam stuff but fun electical stuff!

There is an ongoing little mystery over sever electrical machine damage on electrical propulsion which utilises power electronics - when last I heard this had NOT been associated with harmonics but I think it probably will come down to that - if not their heating effect then maybe simple fatigue or work hardening caused by vibration accidentally tuned to a harmonic.


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## kewl dude

I am of the "boring old steam stuff " generation. I thank you for your detailed reply, although I am not completely sure I understand it all? Or at all?

I sailed a few T2's, turbo-electric and wonder what is the difference between them and modern diesel-electric propulsion? Why are all the electronics involved?

You mention an inverter, are not both the generator and main motor A/C?

Thank You,
Greg Hayden


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## Varley

Greg,

The T2 used the dedicated link between alternator and motor as a sort of flexible coupling - once the motor had been started, during which the voltage did matter - the electrical conditions between motor and alternator didn't matter much providing the voltage was high enough to prevent the motor from falling out of sync and to regulate the current. The frequency did, of course, follow the speed as dictated by the turbine drive but this was not the instrument used to control the speed, merely incidental.

We could do exactly the same with diesel prime movers but (as far as I know) we don't. I have seen this proposed the other way round - with the network frequency following the speed of a main engine driven directly coupled shaft alternator. For this the voltage also needs to follow the frequency in order to match the reactive power demand of the (conventional asynchronous) motor loads. Much as a 440V 60Hz vessel can take shore power from a 50Hz supply providing it is at a lower voltage.

The network of a diesel electric vessel usually 'cascades' down from a bus run at nominal frequency and voltage. Whiulst the propolsors can easily be variable pitch it seems that economics dictates that it is cheaper now to have variable speed motors. To do this the feed to the motor is hacked about to provide a variable frequency/voltage for speed contol.

This can be done in two ways - switching the supply directly to the load side (AC to AC) or first rectifying the supply and then providing using an inverter AC/DC/AC).

Both produce harmonics (in the supply as well as the load) with the former being the worst. Both have reactive power issues to solve.

In my day the only semiconductor that could switch the current required for a drive was the thyristor. A thyristor inverter cannot deliver reactive power (for reasons I don't pretend to understand they actually require as much reactive power to 'commutate' as the load is using at any given moment) in a drive this can be provided by employing a synchronous motor (The concept is used for providing a stable frequency network supply from a variable speed main engine - here the reactive power for the whole network must be provided as well and a stand alone synchonous machine is provided, usually started by pony motor).

The Cycloconverter (see good description at Wiki) has limitations as to the frequencies and reactive power solutions that it can satisfy.

The thyristor controls by when it switches on during the forward biased half cycle it cannot switch off except by reversal of current or voltage (see where my difficulty in understanding starts?). When the demand is high the thyristor is switched on towards the start of the half cycle and so the waveform is quite sinusoidal. When it is switched on half way through it is least sinusoidal like and when the harmonic content is worst.

Wiki quotes the phrase "Rich in harmonics". Whilst this sound rather friendly and comforting the only place harmonics are a good thing is in synthesisers and musical instruments, never on an electrical network.

The advent of more types of semiconductors have broadened the designers' options and allowed for better harmonic and reactive power handling. Firstly the GTO Thyristor and now the power MOSFET. Better performance certainly but not anywhere near the clean supply that the T2's link would have been.

Let us not forget the DC motor either. Some of these crept to sea using converters. Converters were developed for shore side industries first the mercury arc and then the thyristor. These also generated harmonics in supply and on the load side. Ships could have benefited from a far more T2-like solution (adjusting the source voltage rather than the frequency but without the need for power electronics). This would have provided a far quieter network in terms of harmonics - both electrical and acoustic!

With what can I bore you next?

David V


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## Duncan112

Thanks Dave, wish I had had you for my ET lecturer at college - I (think) I understand now!!


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## Varley

Duncan,

Such a position would not have suited either of us. I would've been found out earlier and you'd've not got your ticket!

David V


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## kewl dude

I am not bored David, just having a problem wrapping my mind around this. I am looking online using your key words: modern ships electric propulsion. I have tried to read the Wiki page. I hope to run across an explanation I can understand somewhere.

1965 was my sixth year going to sea. I was an Oiler on the George M Humphrey and I had no intention to write for a license. But the fates put me with a 2 A/E named Jim McKillip. Truth be told I think at least part of the reason Jim began actively tutoring me is was because Jim was lazy. He preferred that I do what he was supposed to do on watch while he sat in the air conditioned engine room office and read paper back novels.

Regardless within 60 days I had traced all the engine room systems and drawn them on paper and Jim would point at a place on a drawing and I needed to tell him what was happening at that point in the system.

I began taking the Lake Carriers Association summer correspondence course. Math was part of this and I just could not seem to grasp the concept of square root. Jim and another engineer tried to explain it to me but I did not get it. I read different sources of how to do it but no go.

The F/WT on our watch overhearing Jim and me talking about it showed me how to do it with a piece of chalk on the top of the burner bench. 

I understood it immediately and had no problem with it after that. So what I need is a smart F/WT with a piece of chalk ....

I went to the Cleveland Lake Carriers School January-March 1966 and got my original Steam Any Horsepower 3 A/E license March 26.

Thanx Dave,

Greg Hayden


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## kewl dude

BTW David seeing your Avatar prompted me to put up a more recent picture of me. My previous was taken mid 1970s shipboard while I took this picture of myself reflected in a mirror April 1, 2011.

Greg Hayden


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## Varley

Greg, I don't believe there's much useful to know that you would not have left secondary school without (16 - 18 years). Every trade tries to hide their skill from another but a fuse blowing in your home protects your neighbour from power outage as does the fusing of one steering motor source from the total loss of steering. David V

PS the picture is only a couple of years in arrears. The beard is now almost completely grey but the stuff on top is almost still 'as built'.


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## billyboy

Varley said:


> Greg, I don't believe there's much useful to know that you would not have left secondary school without (16 - 18 years). Every trade tries to hide their skill from another but a fuse blowing in your home protects your neighbour from power outage as does the fusing of one steering motor source from the total loss of steering. David V
> 
> PS the picture is only a couple of years in arrears. The beard is now almost completely grey but the stuff on top is almost still 'as built'.


Just wondering if I could put my name down for a transplant Varley ha ha ha


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## kewl dude

Not from me you cannot get a transplant I like my long white hair ..

Greg Hayden


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## Varley

billyboy said:


> Just wondering if I could put my name down for a transplant Varley ha ha ha


Beard, Bonce or Both?


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