# 'Kursk' do***entary History Channel - re-opening old wounds



## ddraigmor

The History Channel is showing - 9pm this Friday 10th August - a do***entary by a French film maker which claims that her loss was due to a collision with the USS 'Toledo'.

The blurb accompanying the programme says: 

_Rocked by explosions and, despite rescue attempts by British and Norwegian crews, the Kursk sunk with the loss of all 118 lives on 12 August 2000. The Russian government ruled that the submarine had been destroyed because a hydrogen peroxide leak set off a chain of exploding torpedoes. However French film-maker Jean-Michel Carré contends that the Kursk was sunk after colliding with a US submarine, and in this programme he reinforces those claims with evidence._

The enquiry into her loss claimed that she was destroyed by her own torpedoes, as the Russians had been using hydrogen-peroxide as an accelerant. Hoqwever, an ex Soviet submariner - Valery Aleksin - claims the detonation was due to a collision:

_A second after the impact the torpedo tube with a live USET-80 fish in it was crushed to half its length. Warhead exploded and most of the blast was channeled backward, in the direction of the least resistance. The blast tore apart the inner lid of the torpedo tube creating a hole with a diameter of more than half a meter_ (source: http://www.wps.ru/en/pp/kursk/2000/09/12/1.html)

As well as pointing the finger at USS 'Toledo', the submariner also claims that HMS 'Splendid' was also in the area. Further, that the 'Kursk' was also possibly ( and deliberately ) torpedoed. Submariners who have seen this do***entary all state that the deliberate sinking claim is bull shine - whilst photos of the wreck show (and are available of the wreck ) that the explosion splashes outward, indicating an internal explosion and nothing to date has even given credence to any collision.

Should be an interesting do***entary - but it dioes seem a bit over the top and, I believe, just another attempt to revive the 'wow' factor and give credence to conspiracy theroies that have abounded since this tragedy which cost the lives of so many submariners.

I don't have History so I'd appreciate a synopsis from those members who do.

Jonty


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## gdynia

Jonty
I was present at the salvage of the Kursk. I can fully gaurantee anyone the explosion happened from within and you dont need to be a rocket scientist to make your own judgement from the underwater cameras we had on her or from the divers that were inside the sub. There were submarines in the area for months after the incident as we had Peter the Great with us and she used to go tearing off several times a week. Why they cannot just let it rest as the families of the men lost suffered enough no matter what nationality they were.


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## ddraigmor

Gdynia,

Hear, hear. I'm glad you popped that response on because from what I am reading around the web, the overall feeling of submariners - especially those in the US who have already seen this - is that it is a complete fabrication.

On one board, they even said the BBC refused to show it - now, does that say something?

Jonty


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## Ted Else

Sorry to open up this old thread again - but I watched a do***entary last night on Virgin Media (may be the same on that was broadcast on Sky?). Apart from the general anti West theory of American involvment - one photograph shown (taken shortly after the Kursk was raised) was that of a neat round hole punched *IN* with the Hull indented around. The speculation was made that it was the result of a Torpedo hit - with graphics illustrating that it could have been a modern American type with a unique warhead that allows the weapon to explode after the breaching of the Hull. According to the do***entary, the area was quickly made 'off limits' to the worlds media and further photography of that particular section of the Hull was forbidden. The do***entary then went on about a so called 'deal' between Bush and Putin to 'explain' away the incident as an accident. The do***entary for me certainly opened up some unanswered questions and although I was once finally convinced that it was an accident - with their use of proven dangerous Torpedo propellants etc - now I am not so sure.


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## ssr481

ddraigmor said:


> Gdynia,
> 
> Hear, hear. I'm glad you popped that response on because from what I am reading around the web, the overall feeling of submariners - especially those in the US who have already seen this - is that it is a complete fabrication.
> 
> On one board, they even said the BBC refused to show it - now, does that say something?
> 
> Jonty


I've sean the do***entary (until my BS limit was reached) and have talked with experts in the know.. any and everything showed the KURSK explosion was internal..


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## Ted Else

If a Torpedo did enter the Sub (through the 'punched in' hole) the following explosion (s) would have resulted in the massive damage that was allowed to be photographed - as I said -I think that the showing of the do***entary (again??- if it was the same one) certainly has made me now - one of the doubters.


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## gdynia

Ted

I was a member of the Kursk Salvage team the bow section where the incident occured was never raised we cut this off and was left on sea bed. We had cameras on her everyday and people being people looked her all over the hole was made from something exploding inside.You dont have to be a rocket scientist to realise this.The people onboard lost their lives through a tradgedy and should be allowed to rest in peace - we saw their families waiting ashore for news they knew nothing and took all that was going on with great dignity. Not seeing this do***entary we drilled holes all over the Kursk to lift her she was double skinned so alot of holes being taken on photo could be misconscrued to this effect.

It is the same with media all over the world beef a story up and more people will believe in it.


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## ROBERT HENDERSON

gdynia said:


> Ted
> 
> I was a member of the Kursk Salvage team the bow section where the incident occured was never raised we cut this off and was left on sea bed. We had cameras on her everyday and people being people looked her all over the hole was made from something exploding inside.You dont have to be a rocket scientist to realise this.The people onboard lost their lives through a tradgedy and should be allowed to rest in peace - we saw their families waiting ashore for news they knew nothing and took all that was going on with great dignity. Not seeing this do***entary we drilled holes all over the Kursk to lift her she was double skinned so alot of holes being taken on photo could be misconscrued to this effect.
> 
> It is the same with media all over the world beef a story up and more people will believe in it.


In my opinion it is governments that are the main cause of conspiracy theories with their lack of openess.
The same has happened over the twin towers on 9/11. The conspiracy theorists will jump on the band wagon where money is to be made.

Regards Robert


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## Ted Else

I certainly agree with your opening remark Robert - that gov'ts of the day are the main causes through their lack of 'openess - but unfortunately that is inevitable with the levels of secrecy that has to be maintained in this dangerous world etc. As for the 'sceptics' (conspiracy theorists) only being around (jumping on band wagons?) where money is to be made - I evidently missed that boat again -LOL -
When the two major powers are accused of colluding in a 'cover up', then are we not entitled to be sceptical if our own broadcasting network (BBC) decided only to screen the 'official line' and not this embarrasing (French?) version?


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## doyll

Good point Ted


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## sparkie2182

did anyone note the condition of the home of the Captain of the Kursk?

one of the worlds finest submarine Captains lived in a shanty town


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## Heuri1

I'm in total agreement with all the negative posts regarding these 'conspiracy theorists' allegations, even argued vociferously against the conclusions when first aired. As I recall there was a lot of clear evidence fired at the producers prior to release, but being of a particular brand of French fantasist they decided what the hell, all that so-called research had to pay off.

I hope their efforts are rewarded with the utter contempt they deserve.
Ps I'm no Francophobe, but France seems to produce quite a lot of nutty theories...but then I guess nuts aren't country-specific - we all have them!


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## Ted Else

We certainly do 'Heuri1' - I for one am glad that any sceptic, ('nutty theorist or not') still has the freedom here to raise questions on any 'official conclusion' etc. I have heard of the 'flat earth society' - the - 'we never went to the moon' brigade and also the 'Twin Tower's conspiracy theorists' - we make our own judgements on the scant knowledge that is 'allowed' to be released. but as Robert Henderson so eloquently stated, most of the problem is through a lack of openess by Gov'ts etc.
All that said however - when an image is released that contradicts the 'official line' - in this case - the neatly punched (2ft dia?) hole with surrounding inward bulge of the surrounding area (St'bd side just for'd of the Sail) - coupled with 'computer graphics' that were used to show a possible alternative scenerio - then I for one re-assessed my previously held (compliant?) view. Sorry


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## gdynia

Ted

As a lot has happened over the years since this tradgic loss of life and a lot of water has flown under the bridge since. From memory we cut a serious of holes down both sides of the sail these holes were for the lifting gear on the Barge Giant 4 which finally lifted the submarine from the seabed. In these holes anchors were placed whose flukes folded out to grip inside the submarine for purchase.
One thing i think i am write on quoting was we were not made aware that this type of submarine was doubled skinned at time of initial salvage operations, hence a second hole had to be cut directly below the initial holes. If any one has had first hand experience with a Russian submarine they have junction boxes all over the place so a special tool had to be made to pile drive through these boxes to allow access for the anchors. That i believe is where this crackpots theory is stemming from. Anyways where was he as he was certainly not there during any part of the operation.


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## Heuri1

I agree with you *Ted *when it comes to the sneaky beakys and official govt. lines, however if you'll recall, the Russian authorities went through a frantic cover up period, even drugging one of the poor submariner's wives who had the 'temerity' to blame their government for its inactivity.

One other thing to note also is the availability of accurate information and, at that time, how the long drip of speculation led to some fantastic claims from officials and those who had a vested interest, be it news hounds or conspiracy theorists.

I for one realised early on that the truth was being hidden due to the extreme embarrassment of the Russian government and the frustration of those international rescue teams who were champing at the bit to save fellow mariner's lives as those still alive were facing certain death due to beuracratic thick headedness.

As a history graduate, I would also like to add that the makers of the film, in my opinion let their greed, or should that be desire for fame, pursue a totally amateurish line of inquiry. The egg is on their faces I have concluded; but I am always willing to re-assess the facts in the interest of historical accuracy.

_For those in peril on the sea...and those poor sods who died through inactivity, it will take a lot for me to think kindly of anyone who tries to profit from such a tragedy!_

And thanks *gdynia* the more info the better!


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## Ted Else

*'Heuri1'* Thank for your last 'post'. I do not know whether the do***entry that I saw ("Kursk - Submarine in troubled Waters") was the same do***entry that began this thread - but at least the 'discussion' has aired some alternative views. 
I did see the news broadcast at the time, evidently showing a poor woman being given a 'sedative' to keep her quiet etc - (the do***entry I saw did actually report that Putin was later at a 'families of the dead' meeting and received quite a hostile reception that lasted for more than 3 hours, with only a sanitised short brief of that meeting being released).
I did also note that the C O of the Kursk came from less salubrious surroundings that would normally not be expected for such a high ranking officer. I have also taken 'on board' what '*gdynia*' has stated - regarding the many holes cut in the double skin of the Submarine (double skinned Hulls are not unusual in the construction of Submarines) for the salvage operation, but I (for one) am not convinced: That image of the hole and inward bulge has decidedly made it awkward now for me to accept the official version.
Maybe our great grandchildren will be allowed to find the truth - I applaud 'our' system (with all its faults) for allowing me to state - "I do not think it is there yet".


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## John Rogers

Reference Gdynia post on the salvage operation, I am surprised that the Russian navy did not give the salvage company a copy of the subs blueprint,at least as a minimum the hull. I know there was a lot of Secret equipment on-board but like I said at least a floor plan of the basic structure in order to know where to attach the lifting gear.
Remember conspiracy theories sell and make money for the film makers.

John.


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## gdynia

John

Onboard we had the Russian Admiral of the Northern fleet with a big entorage. The builders of the submarine seemed very loathe to supply anything. A little story which my enlighten this thread. We had a Russian Lady interperator onboard. On joining i filled in my next of kin details with her just naming my wife. She said thats a lovely name where is it from. I told her Poland and thought nothing more. Two days later i was summoned into the Admirals cabin with the interperator as he could not speak English. After formal introduction through the interperator he asked me how is Lech. That is my father in law one of the senior Polish Navy officers at that time and Polands Naval attache to NATO. I was totaly shocked as in a space of 48 hours through my wifes name he found out who my family were. He had been on the same weapons training course in Russia many moons before and were very good friends so the secret service was still alive and kicking.


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## gdynia

John Rogers said:


> Reference Gdynia post on the salvage operation, I am surprised that the Russian navy did not give the salvage company a copy of the subs blueprint,at least as a minimum the hull. I know there was a lot of Secret equipment on-board but like I said at least a floor plan of the basic structure in order to know where to attach the lifting gear.
> Remember conspiracy theories sell and make money for the film makers.
> 
> John.


John

The biggest percentage of salvages i have been involved on have been without blueprints. Your statement saying alot of seceret equipment onboard - so theres your answer who in their right mind would give you the blue print. We have arrived at salvage scenes and the salvage is assessed by the naked eye only then a plan is formulated. You cannot get a blueprint that easily when you have a freighter burning in front of your eyes thats our last thoughts(Thumb)


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## tunatownshipwreck

gdynia said:


> John
> 
> Onboard we had the Russian Admiral of the Northern fleet with a big entorage. The builders of the submarine seemed very loathe to supply anything. A little story which my enlighten this thread. We had a Russian Lady interperator onboard. On joining i filled in my next of kin details with her just naming my wife. She said thats a lovely name where is it from. I told her Poland and thought nothing more. Two days later i was summoned into the Admirals cabin with the interperator as he could not speak English. After formal introduction through the interperator he asked me how is Lech. That is my father in law one of the senior Polish Navy officers at that time and Polands Naval attache to NATO. I was totaly shocked as in a space of 48 hours through my wifes name he found out who my family were. He had been on the same weapons training course in Russia many moons before and were very good friends so the secret service was still alive and kicking.


Astonishing.


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## Locking Splice

Fascinating subject, John its really good to get first hand real time information like yours, far more explantive than the do***entries.


Best regards

Yuge


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## John Rogers

Thanks for the explanation Gdynia, hope you are enjoy the "Diving" in Singapore.

John.


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## shamrock

Firstly, apologies for re-opening an old thread...t'was before my time and until last night I hadn't seen this particular variant of the Kursk story before.

I watched the film not for the conspiracy threories that it would throw up but for the human elements. There have been a few films about Kursk since she was lost under such tragic cir***stances and last night's film gave a little more insight into the families of those who were killed and showed the many insecurities that a tragedy like this can expose.

Every do***entary about the loss of Kursk has featured the scene where Nadezhda Tylik couldn't take any more when listening to the officials about the loss of her son who was a crewman aboard the submarine. Her anguish was raw and was dealt with in a way that shocked many who observed it...immediate sedation by a nurse whilst still in the auditorium.

Mistakes were made in regards to the handling of the families, that mistake was caught on film and I believe it was that which spawned the conspiracy theories as to what happened to Kursk and her crew.

I do believe that Putin learned valuable lessons from Kursk, especially in how to handle the families of serious accidents when in the public eye - especially the world's media. Afterall said and done, Russia hadn't been in the full glare of the world media for very long, so mistakes like Nadezhda Tylik would be big news and something to use against Russia when it came to disect what happened to Kursk and how the Russians dealt with the incident. The media used Mrs Tylik as a diversion, a case of well if that is what they do to grieving mothers, what else are they getting up to...and that can then snowball into conspiracy theories about the families being gagged and the Kursk herself being rammed, torpedoed etc.

Dealing with a tragedy must be excruciatingly hard when in the public eye, but even moreso when you're in charge of a country that had blocked that public eye for so long and you don't really know how to handle the tabloids or what they are capabale of in the 2+2=5 department.


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## ddraigmor

'Kursk' probably imploded after the torpedo she was test iring became unstable and exploded. Using the fuel mixture they were, it would have been a catastrophic event.

Since the sinking, Putin has taken a grip on the media and the military. He wont be so publicly caught out again....

Best source of info, Ally, is the book:'Kursk' by Peter Truscott. That's my opinion as I have read a few on the subject but that one brings it alive.

Jonty


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## shamrock

Jonty, I never actually thought there had been 'outside' involvement in the loss of Kursk and her crew. I always considered it to be a bunch of unfortunate cir***stances that just happened, no conspiracy theories, just a very tragic accident involving a submarine that could have happened at any time, to any Navy, anywhere in the world.

What brought the media spotlight onto Kursk was that Russia was still in the infancy of openess, albeit in the country's third leadership since the break up of the USSR...there were still many areas that were out of bounds and insecurities to be dealt with, especially where the armed forces were concerned.

As much as Putin made mistakes in the initial days after the accident, he did what he thought was right...he had no experience prior to this happening of what to do, no past experience to draw upon, so although things did go very awry, I feel that in the cold light of day he can be forgiven for those errors of judgement.

The fact that his errors were then made into conspiracy theories about what happened to Kursk...such as that infamous round hole in her side...that is the nature of the beast called media spin. The media needed to feed the hunger for answers...ANY answers would do and if they could add spice then all the better for them, but not necessarily better for those who were immediately affected by the crisis...the families. They read the same headlines and were understandably angry and upset and that is when the spiralling of conspiracy got out of control and everyone was blamed for what happened when in all probability it was just a very very tragic accident.

Accidents rarely sell newsprint, conspiracy theories always do.


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## Tmac1720

The "dent" in the hull was caused when she was struck by the Titanic, and you lot thought she had hit an iceberg. (Read) (Night)


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## ddraigmor

Ally,

Indeed - and some good points raised over the issue.

Read the book - it makes it somehow human, which thus makes it even more tragic IMHO.

Jonty


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## shamrock

ddraigmor said:


> Ally,
> 
> Indeed - and some good points raised over the issue.
> 
> Read the book - it makes it somehow human, which thus makes it even more tragic IMHO.
> 
> Jonty


I have taken a note of the book Jonty, will take it with me on my trip in April....since I shall have lots of quiet time to really sit and read it through properly when on the ship. Thanks for the recommendation (Thumb)


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