# Navigating Apprentices and Cadets ....overtime



## barnsey

Can anyone clarify why Navigating Apprentices did not get paid overtime whereas Cadets did.

Navigating Aprrentices did not sign articles Cadets did ....its something to do with that and the BoT regs.

Cant remember the detail ....


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## R831814

I was a Cadet and signed articles but was never paid overtime.

Do you think I might have a claim?


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## Pat Thompson

Greetings,

I was an apprentice, did not sign Articles and was paid overtime. I must have been a company thing. The ships were on "B" Articles so all the officers were paid overtime.


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## Jardine

Apprentices? I thought they were found in shipyards. Don't you mean Midshipmen! This is the Navigation Department we are talking about.


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## sparkie2182

"Don't you mean Midshipmen"

Were they not R.N. and B.F. only?


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## callpor

I was a Navigating Apprentice with Port Line commencing articles in 1962. If I recall correctly we signed the Ship's Articles but never got overtime. Don't think the cadets who came a year or so later got overtime either. Pat Thompson is probably right, it's a company thing.


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## Davie M

Before the education system told all school children that a university education was the way forward,a system of apprenticeships existed in nearly all trades.
Midshipmen were RN, Apprentices and Cadets were MN.
Never paid overtime with Hogarth, but got £30 bonus for completing apprentice indenture.
Davie


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## sparkie2182

and luncheon vouchers???


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## Split

I was an apprentice. I did not get overtime payment, but I got plenty of overtime. The nigh****chman's 12 hour shift was the mate's favourite for senior apprentices. In addition, you had to make yourself scarce when you were off duty, too. Be seen and you got a job!


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## Davie M

sparkie2182 said:


> and luncheon vouchers???


No just the occasional travel(Wave) warrant


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## lakercapt

As a deck apprentice I did not sign the ships agreement but did get paid overtime.
It was 1/6d per hour so when I was nigh****chman (many times) it was 12 hour shift and I received 6/- o/t


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## Jardine

sparkie2182 said:


> "Don't you mean Midshipmen"
> 
> Were they not R.N. and B.F. only?


Blue Funnel of course. I don't believe Runciman Navigation ran to Midshipmen.


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## Donald McGhee

Donaldsons paid overtime, 1/9d an hour, not just nigh****chman either! I was an Apprentice, never signed articles, but was classified as Cadet with Bank Line when Donaldsons folded in 1967. No overtime there, but the experience was more than worth it.

(Pint)


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## Pat Thompson

Greetings,

I can remember when "Mouton Cadet" was "Mouton Apprentice"....


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## woodend

My indentures with E.D.'s are headed 'APPRENTICE'S INDENTURES' and I received a discharge in my book on my first two voyages. After hat nothing until I became Third Mate. The department that we reported to in 'The Kremlin' was known as Steamship / Midshipmen. Strange now you think about it and no we weren't paid overtime. Only extra we got was if we carried livestock and of course the Apprentices got the job of looking after whatever. All good fun!


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## NoR

Donald McGhee said:


> Donaldsons paid overtime, 1/9d an hour, not just nigh****chman either! I was an Apprentice, never signed articles, but was classified as Cadet with Bank Line when Donaldsons folded in 1967. No overtime there, but the experience was more than worth it.
> (Pint)


I got 1/9d when i started (Lyles) then it went up to 2/4d. Got 1000+ hrs overtime on a 14 month trip. £200 ish not bad in 1964, but v short of sleep on many occasions.


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## msalter

I was a Cadet with Strick Line and signed on Articles for voyages and never received any overtime payment which was worked dailly, bar, when occasionally on watch keeping duties on the bridge. I can well remember working for 36 hours in Port Sudan with only food breaks and I was creased and fell asllep on the hatch in the end aaaand then dragge dmyself to my bunk!


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## Andy Lavies

No overtime payment during my apprenticeship. The additional £30 on completion of my indentures was supposed to be for good conduct - did anybody NOT get it?
Andy


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## TOM ALEXANDER

I was an "Indentured" apprentice --- still have my fancy Indenture on bulletproof paper - covered 3 years of servitude (No overtime) in return for the shipping company (Furness Withy) providing experience and education suitable for preparation for 2nd. mate's ticket. Somewhere in my "archives" so not ready to hand, but I believe my father signed them as "Guarantor".


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## Dave Filmer

With Blue Star Line we signd on as cadets and were paid overtime which went from 1/9d to 2/3d per hour during my time. The amount earned depended on the mate, 2 trips on the west coast of the States run the mate had the 3 of us on the 4-8 instead of 3 deck hands and worked us 6 hours a day on deck including weekends. This with cargo work on the coast gave us a pay off as good as if not more than 3rd mate.


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## nautibuoy42

As far as I am aware with LandH we signed standard 2yr articles, and got paid overtime, 1/9d an hour in 1958.


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## Derek Roger

In Brocklebanks ; Apprentices Indentured ( engineer ) Cadets on Deck if I remember correctly .
All worked lots of overtime without pay .All officers on A articles . The crew either Indian or from Pakistan however were paid overtime . I think also Chippy and QM's got overtime pay when worked . 

Derek


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## jimthehat

Donald McGhee said:


> Donaldsons paid overtime, 1/9d an hour, not just nigh****chman either! I was an Apprentice, never signed articles, but was classified as Cadet with Bank Line when Donaldsons folded in 1967. No overtime there, but the experience was more than worth it.
> 
> (Pint)


I was an apprentice with bank line 1952-56 Overtime was not a word that was in our vocabulary,our hours were long and in port it would be 12 hour shifts.
I stayed with bank line until 1966 and we still had apprentices then .reason I left was that the company were changing over to A articles.


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## John Dryden

I was one or the other in Bank Line so no overtime and usually called out at anytime of the night,often wonder if the seacunny found it easier to come to my cabin rather than going aft when something needed doing!
When I got a uncert.3/O job nothing really changed as I was informed by the master with a scowl on his face that I had the most overtime of anyone aboard.
I think that was down to the second mate putting me right but I know for sure I didn,t get paid all of it.Good trip though as he also told me I had the biggest bar bill!


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## Mike S

NZS/Federal we were indentured apprentices on a Cadet Ship. 
Much confusion of names there!
No overtime however we were on a sliding payscale up to Cadet Capt who earned around 50% of the 4th Mates rate.
Overtime for us was the cleaning out of the hatches on the coast preparing for refrigerated cargo where we were paid Wharfies rates.
Made more in two to three weeks than the earnings for six months!


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## jimthehat

TOM ALEXANDER said:


> I was an "Indentured" apprentice --- still have my fancy Indenture on bulletproof paper - covered 3 years of servitude (No overtime) in return for the shipping company (Furness Withy) providing experience and education suitable for preparation for 2nd. mate's ticket. Somewhere in my "archives" so not ready to hand, but I believe my father signed them as "Guarantor".


Still got my indentures from 1952-1956,I served on 3 ship during my four years,17months..13 months.. adn 16 months,All three ships are entered on the back of my indentures9which I still have) and my discharge book also has the entries with Vg for all three.
My father signed the indentures along with a local soliciter.

jim


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## BAROONA

I was an "indentured cadet" in Port Line, 1969 to 1972. We did not get paid overtime and in one ship the PORT MONTREAL, you had to be very scarce on sunday mornings in NZ else the mate would get you working with the crowd who were on overtime.
However, up till the early 1970s, you could get 'Shore Pay' working on the Aussie Coast.


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## Ron Stringer

BAROONA said:


> However, up till the early 1970s, you could get 'Shore Pay' working on the Aussie Coast.


Believe that was courtesy of the Australian unions shoreside, (who insisted that apprentices and other crew members were paid for that work) rather than the generosity of the shipowner.


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## joebuckham

Ron Stringer said:


> Believe that was courtesy of the Australian unions shoreside, (who insisted that apprentices and other crew members were paid for that work) rather than the generosity of the shipowner.


we used to go up to the gate and volunteer for an evening or weekend shift . i believe we were known as seagulls or seagull labour


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## slick

All,
'Eight Hours Day of Arrival', now there was crime against us.

Yours aye,

slick


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## Clanline

As a cadet in Union Castle/Clan Line we did not get overtime and even off watch we were called out in port, especially on the U-C ships, to top derricks etc rather than have the crew out and pay THEM overtime!
We often went ashore even if we were broke (most of the time) just to avoid the extra work!


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## S Fraser

Derek Roger said:


> In Brocklebanks ; Apprentices Indentured ( engineer ) Cadets on Deck if I remember correctly .
> All worked lots of overtime without pay .All officers on A articles . The crew either Indian or from Pakistan however were paid overtime . I think also Chippy and QM's got overtime pay when worked .
> 
> Derek


In Brocklebanks we were indentured apprentices on deck as well. I had the unusual situation where I started as an apprentice, then had to come ashore because of a medical condition and Brocks cancelled my indentures after 6 months. After nearly a year ashore i rejoined Brocks to finish my training, but had to come back as a cadet, and the entry in my discharge book was altered to show this change in the articles.

In neither position was I ever paid overtime, nor did I expect it.

Stan


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## John Travis Whitehead

*Cadets overtime*

Regarding Dave Filmers Post.

I also was a cadet with Blue Star Line.

One trip I sort of recollect was on the "Mendoza Star" in I believe 1963.

The cadets did the 4-8 watch and then day work, seven days a week at sea and in port.

After a nine week trip from U.K. to South America via Spain, the Canary Islands, and then back via Denmark to U.K. I paid off with something over four hundred pounds.

Got home and slept for a couple of days as I remember.

Regards to all and a Merry Christmas and all you wish yourself in the New Year.


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## chrischild

*Apprentice overtime*

All I know is that on many occasion when the pilots ladder needed to be deployed,
I was called to struggle with the unweildly bundle, because if the called an AB they had to pay him minimum 2 hours overtime.
Those were the days
Chris


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## enzoneo

Clanline said:


> As a cadet in Union Castle/Clan Line we did not get overtime and even off watch we were called out in port, especially on the U-C ships, to top derricks etc rather than have the crew out and pay THEM overtime!
> We often went ashore even if we were broke (most of the time) just to avoid the extra work![/
> 
> Similar to my experience with Ellermans, loads of 'overtime' but no overtime pay. Day work at sea and 12on 6off 6on 12 off .... working cargo in port. I remember auto pilot going on the blink so had to take my turn on the wheel from Mombassa to UK 4on 4off for a couple of weeks - knackering but got my steering cert - how I stayed awake sometimes LOL.


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## Nova Scotian

*Services Beyond The Call of Duty*

As a navigating apprentice with Houlders, I was usually at the mercy of the mate when it came to the number of hours I worked. Apprentices did not receive overtime during my apprenticeship from 1964 - 68. Occasionally we were compensated with the odd can of beer, or time off in lieu after particularly long or demanding duties.

During my time on the the LPG Clerk Maxwell, me and my mate, Tony Barriss, worked six on-six off in the compressor room when the automatic system failed. Not the best place to be for three weeks in a hot, ammonia filled, room wearing a gas mask. Houlders rewarded us with a cheque for 20 pounds for services beyond the call of duty. My dad, when I told him what we had done to earn it, said I should have framed it and not cashed it.

Never minded working long hours for good Ch' Offs but hated the idea when tasked by some of the more smellie ones. Never had any regrets regarding my time with Houlders. 

Cheers


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## LANCE BALL

Apprentices were indentured for four years seatime, Cadets engaged on a voyage basis. I was a Cadet and paid overtime at O.S rate per NMB rule book.This was 1945 to 1949'
Lance Ball


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## vasco

Indentured as an apprentice with Houlders 1968, no overtime. We got a £5 chippy bonus occassionally for doing soundings when on Tankers without chippies, such as the Black max. This came off the Bond Bill.
Around 1970 when HNC? was introduced we were rebranded as Cadets because Apprentice sounded to "bag carrying". This was the time that salaries across fleets were re-organised, I recollect some Cadets got massive pay rises.
As always, this may be corrected by others because it was a long time ago.


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## John Dryden

*Apps pay rise*



vasco said:


> Indentured as an apprentice with Houlders 1968, no overtime. We got a £5 chippy bonus occassionally for doing soundings when on Tankers without chippies, such as the Black max. This came off the Bond Bill.
> Around 1970 when HNC? was introduced we were rebranded as Cadets because Apprentice sounded to "bag carrying". This was the time that salaries across fleets were re-organised, I recollect some Cadets got massive pay rises.
> As always, this may be corrected by others because it was a long time ago.


You are right Vasco,about 1970 I was App. in Bank lIne and my pay went from £19 a month to £52.Something like a 120% rise...I was rich!


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## Caffj

I was an Indentured Apprentice with the North Shipping Co (Hugh Roberts & Son) from 1953 to 1957. I was paid overtime,(probably not all the hours I worked)but the money was a god sent given my pay was £7 per month (1st Year). At the end of my Apprenticeship I got back the £25 my father had paid
as sercurity bond.
Caffj


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## 8575

I was a cadet in Ben Line and overtime was definitely not paid.

The only overtime paying job I had was as 3/O and 2/O with Bank Line when they were on B Articles. Perversely, the Mate was on A Articles presumably because they put in a lot of hours! Sailed on one ship where in a daywork only port (in Aussie) both the 3/O and myelf were required to be on deck all day Monday to Friday but only one of us on Saturday by order of the Old Man. I complained aplenty to no avail but "Master under God..."

I believe, that in theory, cadets could move about freely to companies until they had their qualifying time in, unlike indentured apprentices. In practice though I never heard of anyone doing so.


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## Donald McGhee

John Dryden said:


> You are right Vasco,about 1970 I was App. in Bank lIne and my pay went from £19 a month to £52.Something like a 120% rise...I was rich!


If I had known that I might not have run away!!!!


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