# dead ship??



## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

AS one sat in front of the ek examiner in the BOT Ticket 2/e Exam, and he asks you gently what would you do in the event of break down at sea on voyage?
Have you truly thought of your answer, apart from the gibbon,s and sothern's reply. Just take a moment to think, on either a steam ship or motor ship?
My thoughts a steam turbine ship of some 15K SHP dual boiler plant.
Air start diesel for this? emergency diesel? water to fill the boilers,-HOW By Hand buckets, through which opening? Air draft for the boiler furnace- Ample fuel heavy or marine diesel? for start up-How does one heat up the heavy fuel oil?
Am I getting excited no, just that thought when the vessel collapses tube failure both boilers, no Air Start diesel, diesel genny conks out all bearings run-oil pressure problem. Mid ocean Indian returning to the loading port in the gulf. Blackout total power failure, no injuries, boiler tubes failure, tubes to plug, no power for engine room work shop, all to be done by hand-Besides play with ones self!.
Do not ask the reasons why this predicament, It was an experience for a first tripper 2/e with his ticket. One had to become acquainted with ones ships, surroundings, fellow engineers and their skills. I was just pleased of my training as an apprentice marine engineer, and the fact of facing a Stranger -That BOT Examiner in the orals, who question my beliefs in one self, and gave me confidence, and the nouse to know my ship and its plant and auxliaries, and how one could adapt it safely in an emergency. The ship was 11 days adrift, no power? that was a long time ago/history? Just a passing experience? My GOD!!
In the event we were left with the main steam plant, from hand filling a boiler after tube repairs, all done in daylight of by oil lamps, marine diesel firing the boiler, {one} raising steam to design pressure 600psi, open up a steam turbine feed pump, and a TA all staff in er at a station to ensure the TA, FEED PUMP, operate, straight on the board with the TA, more fires in the boiler, and bring the plant condensers , circ pumps to life. Then look at the plant couple up the boilers, and check with care the water consumption, as prior to the total loss of power/main plant failure the ship was having water {For the boilers} consumption problems due to faulty fresh water generators/evaporators? We did make the gulf port at some 4Knots but we got there, thanks to the fellow engineers an crew.
As the BOT Examiner wished me well, with the words Know your ship? In the commercial world of shipping every thing is not given on a plate? One must be aware, of life? It is easy to walk away, but more difficult to solve and be human.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Perhaps: More competency. Fewer operational; procedures (although that belies how the predicament arose!)


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

Very Wise dear sir! The things one does as a young man at the start of a career???


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

captainconfusion said:


> Very Wise dear sir! The things one does as a young man at the start of a career???


Proof of the importance of the maintenance and regular (weekly on ships I sailed on) testing of emergency gear. On the ss discovery bay we started the job up again using the emergency fire pump discharge temporarily plumbed into the auxy geny cooling line to get some juice back into the switchboard, it was a close one because the main sea circulation pump was nearly salt water tested due to the inability to lower the bilges.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Providing one does test them properly.

I contend that one good test every quarter (in terms of an engine driven emergency generator, for example, that would mean at a load representing MCR until all the usual parameters have reached stable and normal values and, where required by regulation, starts and connects automatically on separation from main supply) is more likely to gauge condition than a 20 minute run on a Saturday morning 

EB Carrier had a calamity near Japan (actually she had a fair number of them simultaneously, an ensemble one might say). The emergency generator could only run for 15 minutes or so without overheating confining communications to 5 or 10 minutes every hour and a half or so depending on how slick the R/O was at re-pointing the dish and keeping it on target. I knew (know, I hope) the Master and how well he followed out then procedures and that the Saturday test would have been carried out as customarily. It was subsequently determined that the cold corrosion had rotten through one piston. Perhaps only good fortune did not include a small crankcase explosion amongst her troubles.

One of the Cast HHI built conbulkers went aground in the St. Lawrence. Again ceremonial Saturday testing would not have shown up the failure of the Emergency supply to start on loss failure of feed (the main supply remaining healthy).. The bridge team were confused by the loss of emergency fed equipment into thinking the ship had blacked out and was not steering (she was it was just that the electric rudder angle indicator was fed from the ESB). The Emergency steering mode was selected when, indeed, she did no longer answer the helm and went aground (under power). A lesson also for the designers - and their approvers! Had the design not included the unnecessary/undesirable feature of retuning the ESB to a recovered MSB feed it is unlikely that the failure mode responsible would have existed).

Maersk ???? ESB was provided with a switch to enable simulation of automatic start. The simulation worked but with the switch set to normal it didn't.

Over-enthusiasm may be endearing but may not be engineering..

.


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

Just make sure the yellow "this will float" thingy on the bridge works reasonably well occasionally.

She'll be right.

Did anyone ever see one that didnt sink?


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

Varley said:


> Providing one does test them properly.
> 
> I contend that one good test every quarter (in terms of an engine driven emergency generator, for example, that would mean at a load representing MCR until all the usual parameters have reached stable and normal values and, where required by regulation, starts and connects automatically on separation from main supply) is more likely to gauge condition than a 20 minute run on a Saturday morning
> 
> ...


You make some valid points David but anybody can pick up on unusual occurrences which may be unforseen;we're only human after all, certainly no need for overly barbed comments like your last line.in my reply to captainconfusion we most definitely engineered our way out of a very tricky situation and due to regular testing the emergency fire pump didn't let us down in that instance.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I rather thought that an aphorism 'to be' rather than critical of anyone here or still on the coal face. I should have seen if Shakespeare could be bent to it better.

What your praise of regular testing ignores (but does not negate the need for just as mine didn't either but just qualifies how it is done) is that it is the failures caused by inadequate testing that are more significant. In the vast majority of cases (I hope) there will be no subsequent emergency to test it for real and therefore any shortcomings may remain hidden and, I contend, often have done and will continue to do so.

I have another. A class of Semi-refrigerated gas carriers had 'main' generators prevented from starting unless the priming pumps were running. It was not until the plant was 'dead' that it was recognised that an emergency switchboard failure prevented, amongst other things exclusively connected to it, re-establishment of the main plant. Of course it didn't as the machines could be started manually but hardly in the design scheme.

A similar cir***stance where 'if it's on the emergency supply it must be the safest it can be' philosophy is again proved wrong was on the Seaspread class of MSVs. The thruster controls (obviously not the thrusters themselves) were fed from the ESB. When the ESB was tested properly (ie the feed tripped from the 440 V MSB) all the thruster tripped with the interruption to their controllers leaving her with full power available but nowhere for it to go. Much the same scenario as many steering systems pre-Amoco Cadiz with telemotors on the ESB and main motors not (and because it had had happened to me on Cast Fulmar I should have been 'on guard' for it but wasn't).

Please hear all I have to say before suggesting that I am preaching what I am not. Test but test properly.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

This maybe a repeat, but I was on abrand new ship out of Emaq yard Rio. Maiden voyage with the flags flying in Bridgetown Barbados. Bunkered day before when one genny ( more like a large truck engine) stopped, started another to get lights back on then that stopped. Turns out there was a bunch of water in the diesel ( sand also I think). We had MAN over from Germany and they said all those engines required some nozzle at the bottom of the FV pocket replacing. The ER was quite well lit through the skylight for the top plates.
After the super suggested to the 4th to check the gravity disc in the DOP it was found that size of disc wasn't even in the spares, so the DOP was just acting as a pump. DO is usually pretty good with very little water, but this load had.
Lots of sludging of service tank. 
Our 'black start' compressor was a single 3" piston worked backwards and forwards with a 5 ' handle. You raised so much pressure and no more. 
Grocer was becoming a little concerned about the cold stores, somebody suggested scuba bottles, high pressure low volume, that obviously didn't work. Contractors plant compressor might, but that would cost money.
Harbour tug ahead of us, did he have compressed air, yes. Would he come alongside and connect to our deck main, yes.
So we got the lights on that way. A jump start on compressed air.
How the hand job got through the regs , who knows. Obviously they didn't witness a test from an empty bottle. 
Looking back on my sea life, even though we had BOT sports on a Friday at sea, no other emergency gear was tested, like hand steering from the tiller flat, starting the ME from the starting platform in the ER (this was on a bridge control ship, but with the starting gear in the ECR which worked pneumatics). Running the emergency generator on load for a time as Varley said. But we got by and was never in that position when we had to. 
A Rotory Vane steering gear would be hard to turn if the hydraulics failed as there is no tiller arm.


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## Victor J. Croasdale (Nov 28, 2016)

Been there - done that but, alas no T shirt.

According to my discharge book, I joined the MV Sig Ragne, a no frills ship, in Singapore on May 7, 1978.

After a couple of days in Singers we set off for Durban.
Somewhere in the middle of the India Ocean we broke down. We were adrift for 6 days with no electrical power at one point not even the emergency generator, oil lamps at night etc..
First job was to make a barbecue out of an old oil drum, in order to be able to cook.
We had three D/As, one of them had been overhauled by a Paxman man who left in Singapore. The engine was fine (for a Paxman) but its alternator rotor was on the after deck.
We transferred the alternator from the worst engine to the good engine, then fixed the second worst engine.

When we had fixed a generator we had to get it running.
1 Hand start the emergency air compressor.
2 Evacuate engine room because of smoke leaking from emergency air compressor engine exhaust pipe.
3 Return to engine room about one hour later and stop emergency air compressor engine.
4 Position crew members with a watch at each starter. Each was given a time after the lights came on to hit the start button.
Start fresh water cooling pumps, sea water cooling pumps, engine room fans etc.
5 When satisfied that the engine is OK start main air compressors, pump out the bilges etc.
6 Start DO purifier etc Sharples- nothing but the best on the Ragne!
7 Start fixing the other generator. The ship had Paxman D/As and it took two of the three to run the ship, and we had an alternator rotor on the aft deck.
8 Once we had two generators the main engine checks indicated a leak in one of the air coolers, so off with the ends, turn a couple of plugs and bang them in.
Piece of cake really!
We got into Durban just in time for my birthday and spent about a week in a repair berth.
Other than a Brazillian ship loosing steerage and running into us whilst tied up on the buoys in Lagos, some one parting the bosun's hair with an iron bar while we were on water rationing and the old man being taken off in an ambulance after a heart attack the rest of the trip went quite smoothly.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Ah. The Paxman. Perhaps one should not test one of a Saturday in case it be needed on Sunday.


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## Victor J. Croasdale (Nov 28, 2016)

Whilst in Singapore we had a Singaporean Lloyd's surveyor on board.
On being told we had Paxmans he waved both arms in circular motion, ending with raising them to the sky, making a 'boom' noise followed by, "Ahh Pax Man".


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## John Cassels (Sep 29, 2005)

Victor J. Croasdale said:


> Whilst in Singapore we had a Singaporean Lloyd's surveyor on board.
> On being told we had Paxmans he waved both arms in circular motion, ending with raising them to the sky, making a 'boom' noise followed by, "Ahh Pax Man".


Probably was thinking about Jeremy ?.


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## Victor J. Croasdale (Nov 28, 2016)

John Cassels said:


> Probably was thinking about Jeremy ?.


Alternatively he may have been a Latin scholar thinking of world peace, Pax Man


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

John Cassels said:


> Probably was thinking about Jeremy ?.


John have you seen who he is being replaced with on university challenge, the mind boggles 😖


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## Phil Saul (Jan 20, 2006)

It was a regular event on Federal's Westmorland. Pounding along at 21 knts when suddenly the engines would just stop dead and she would drift to a stop in eerie silence. Usually they got her going again within 30 mins. Something to do with the turbos!! but not sure as I was in catering. Loved it when it happened during lunch or dinner as it meant a quick finish as everyone rushed for the bridge or engine-room.
I did five trips in her over four years, including a double-header on the MANZ run and happened every trip but fortunately, never in any kind of seaway.
When I think of some of the storms we went through, we were very fortunate!!


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

"double-header on the MANZ run"

How long would that have kept you away, Phil?


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## taffe65 (May 27, 2007)

sternchallis said:


> like hand steering from the tiller flat, starting the ME from the starting platform in the ER (this was on a bridge control ship, but with the starting gear in the ECR which worked pneumatics)


These operations were part of my sea-going correspondence course assignments which I carried out on my first trip @ sea onboard M.V. SCYTHIA (fruit boat). If memory serves me right I,m sure we even simulated loss of power to rotary vane main hydraulic pump motors and me and the other engine cadet were tasked with hand cranking the motors to generate sufficient oil pressure to move the rudder to its desired position, it was bloody hard work and response was incredibly slow even at reduced main engine revs, all fun and games😅


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## Phil Saul (Jan 20, 2006)

sparkie2182 said:


> "double-header on the MANZ run"
> 
> How long would that have kept you away, Phil?


Hi sparkie, the double header took eight and a half months and we docked in the Royal Docks, London on Xmas Day 1970 just in time for last orders at the Connaught.
I would do that trip over again in a heartbeat. Best trip ever, with best crew in my favourite ship.
Regards Phil


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## ss trangie (Feb 29, 2016)

Right. How's about a steamship that abruptly blacks-out mid-Pacific Ocean, shutting everything down from full ahead. 

Five Scotch boilers all going full blast, a triple-expansion Main Engine, a Vickers exhaust turbine driven alternator for all ship's electrical power and the big propulsion motor mounted on the shaft; the ID fans, the condenser circ. pump...everything stops the instant after the overspeed governor is accidentally tripped. Two firemen and the greaser clear out. On watch are Milton Judd and I, both formerly Port Line but as yet certificated Engineers. SS _Eros_ (1936) renamed SS Trangie and on board we have a cargo of 19,370 live sheep, bound from Sydney via Suva and Papeete to Manzanillo, Mexico.


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

My dears was it pants down, a mess in ones draws, a smell of sheeps phoo? Baaing sheep, no air conditioning, , Lots of ;HOGIT' for that occasional party? What an experience, what did you relate to your BOT Examiner in ones orals.
Firng the boilers on sheep faeces, or did one have oil fuel in stead of coal.. Noted that there was a electric propulsion on the main shaft, exhaust Turbine after main triple expansion engine?? I am confused where you serving on a steam turbine ship ( Parsons-reaction turbine plant] with an HP,,IP, LP plant driving d/c or a/c generators, or a gearing train OR a triple expansion engine, main unit, possibly 4 cylinders.{HP-IP-2xLP] and and an exhaust turbine for electrical power.
The main plant description you give does not make sense??? Can you clarify, Please.
I am afraid it is half a story???
t


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## ss trangie (Feb 29, 2016)

Well spotted old chap, it is only half the story and the plant involved is your last option... Triple expansion main engine (Yarrow Schlick Tweedie arrangement of assymetrical throws of the four bottom end journals on the crankshaft...for smoother running and power delivery) and exhaust turbine driving an alternator supplying all electricity although principally to drive the large DC motor direct mounted on the tail shaft, itself capable of adding 3-4 knots to her total speed, 5 oil fired, three furnace Scotch fire tube boilers on line, making for a top speed of 16 knots (or more if submarines were about, as was the case when U-48 got her with a long range shot May 7, 1940 right on the stem off Donegal). Beached and salvaged, she was hit again by torpedo bomber midships off Aberdeen Nov 3, 1940 killing two (engineers?) Built 1936 by Harland and Wolff... think Titanic, same plant but smaller, except she was single screw but assisted by the same system more or less utilising the turbo electric output (as did Titanic via its centre shaft... only that was pure electric. In many respects _Eros_ ( apt enough name considering her later career) hull was a forerunner-prototype to the many post-war 6,000 ton refrigerated cargo ships, a la the Port Sydney. Five boilers supplied serving feed water via a single Weirs pump, made for the juggling of each boiler's feed water valves under changing load conditions a bit tricky...but we did it. Said to be capable of 17 knots (u boat top speed) by the expedient of shutting off steam supply to the CO2 cargo refrigerating plant. Eros/Trangie was quite a bit of gear the like of which we will never see again.

It is all in my self-published book The Windward Mark--_on the high seas to Mexico, loaded with 86,079 sheep. _Not that I am touting for sales here. As it says on the dust cover "Little did failed shipping company Rigryth Ltd know in 1964 that the 24 year old Aussie Junior Engineer they had working on the SS _Trangie_ would so many years later be in a position to conduct in-depth research into archived do***ents...uncovering and dissecting a harrowing story of corruption and animal cruelty".

As to how we, under the calm guidance and direction by excellent Chief Alf Arnold and Second Engineer Bill Wright got her all up and running back at full sea speed in about 90 minutes I can expound if interested.

Fair weather and a following sea to all

David James


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

excellent, a little lost though? The tailshaft electric motor, adding a speed of 3/4 knots? I am lost? what if I go back to my engineering knowledge lessons at tech i have a question{s]s
1/ I assume a fixed pitch prop, not variable pitch? then=
a/ what is the relation between the up and downer speed/valve movement if the engine speed is increased beyond the max output power of the up and downer? Cut off steam point hp inlet, did the valve gear and tailshaft motor have a connection of any kind/engineering wise?
b/ What was the guiding factor for the shaft motor D/C drive I assume. or was it A/C? It is power not speed added to the shaft output/ SO what about the prop?
Regards and thanks??? Quiet a feat of engineering intrigue young man!!!!


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## ss trangie (Feb 29, 2016)

captainconfusion said:


> excellent, a little lost though? The tailshaft electric motor, adding a speed of 3/4 knots? I am lost? what if I go back to my engineering knowledge lessons at tech i have a question{s]s
> 1/ I assume a fixed pitch prop, not variable pitch? then=
> a/ what is the relation between the up and downer speed/valve movement if the engine speed is increased beyond the max output power of the up and downer? Cut off steam point hp inlet, did the valve gear and tailshaft motor have a connection of any kind/engineering wise?
> b/ What was the guiding factor for the shaft motor D/C drive I assume. or was it A/C? It is power not speed added to the shaft output/ SO what about the prop?
> Regards and thanks??? Quiet a feat of engineering intrigue young man!!!!





captainconfusion said:


> excellent, a little lost though? The tailshaft electric motor, adding a speed of 3/4 knots? I am lost? what if I go back to my engineering knowledge lessons at tech i have a question{s]s
> 1/ I assume a fixed pitch prop, not variable pitch? then=
> a/ what is the relation between the up and downer speed/valve movement if the engine speed is increased beyond the max output power of the up and downer? Cut off steam point hp inlet, did the valve gear and tailshaft motor have a connection of any kind/engineering wise?
> b/ What was the guiding factor for the shaft motor D/C drive I assume. or was it A/C? It is power not speed added to the shaft output/ SO what about the prop?
> Regards and thanks??? Quiet a feat of engineering intrigue young man!!!!



Some more info for you Captain.
1. The DC motor consisted of a stator, mounted aft of the thrust bearing that was about 10 feet in diameter. The rotor windings were incorporated on the shaft itself, obviating power loss, rather than = if it had been transmitted mechanically via a reduction gearbox drive in the Bohr Watt system. What is the electrical efficiency of a DC motor, what say you, 90% or so.
2. The exhaust turbine was direct coupled to an alternating current generator the output of which was inverted to DC but I cannot recall the operating voltage and this supplied the motor.
3. As to the ships power switchboard etc I think that was 110 v DC. So for harbour or manoevring etc electrical power was supplied by a steam driven Belliss and Morcombe Duplex Auxiliary /Generator. Once we got Full Away at sea speed and all was settled down we switched over and then all electrical power for the entire ship was derived via the Main Engine exhaust turbine.
4. Full Away Sea Speed was 80 RPM with the Shaft Motor kicked in which with its regular turning moment smoothed the rattles and bangs of the ME considerably. However with drip supply to the bottom end bearings via wool siphons a necessary part of watchkeeping engineer was to put one's hand down into the rotating crankshaft as it passed over tdc and feel the bearing and check the colour, sufficiency and temperature of the oil. Not a job for the faint hearted that one.

5. During the Battle of the Atlantic she did 57 crossings New York-Liverpool- NY, mostly unescorted because of her speed, which in itself made her a juicy target for U-48 and later the Heinkel 115 b torpedo bomber. U-Boat top speed on the surface, was 17 knots when lining up for a shot, and I was told by the Chief that in such an emergency they could boost the steam supply by shutting down the CO 2 Frig compressor and so get another knot out of her but as you intimate that would have entailed by virtue of having a fixed pitch prop, pushing the ME RPM above the normal 80 to ??? 85 at a guess.

Of course, this was 66 years ago so any errors or omissions pls excuse.

brgds

SS Trangie


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## captainconfusion (Aug 13, 2020)

Thank you signing off for now!!! Still a little confused Regards David


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## ss trangie (Feb 29, 2016)

Nice to chat and to revisit old memories of 58 years ago from 1964 ( not 66 years, as previously stated) from early 
seminal events in my progression in Marine Engineering.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Varley said:


> I rather thought that an aphorism 'to be' rather than critical of anyone here or still on the coal face. I should have seen if Shakespeare could be bent to it better.
> 
> What your praise of regular testing ignores (but does not negate the need for just as mine didn't either but just qualifies how it is done) is that it is the failures caused by inadequate testing that are more significant. In the vast majority of cases (I hope) there will be no subsequent emergency to test it for real and therefore any shortcomings may remain hidden and, I contend, often have done and will continue to do so.
> 
> ...


I would aggree with you there Varley. It seemed the testing was sufficient to enter it in the log book but not to see if it stood up to the rigours of several hours at full load.


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