# Ratt At Sea



## GW3OQK (Jun 10, 2010)

Hello King
I enjoyed reading about RATT AT SEA
http://www.rnmuseumradarandcommunications2006.org.uk/RATT_AT_SEA_IN_THE_ROYAL_NAVY_PART_TWO.html and even recognised some of the gear. 

Did your machines print everything that was broadcast day and night? You must have used an awful lot of paper. I think I tuned through many an RY in those days. Remembering how the Atalanta would change pitch as we rolled were B40's and the like stable enough? In 1964 I did see the RA17 in use at CFH, with a very noisy hall full of teleprinters. It was very advanced compared to what we had in the MN.

All the best
Andrew

PS this is the main page
http://www.rnmuseumradarandcommunications2006.org.uk/COMMUNICATIONS_MENU.htm


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Hello Andrew. That is a most interesting article. I managed to read the 29 wpm ok in my head but too fast for me to write. I could do it onto a typewriter OK. Certainly TP rolls got used up quickly if we were on continuous watch. The big RFA frontliners always were but smaller ships had Single or Double operator watches. B40 for HF and B41 for LF were not particularly stable and needed constant attention. Eventually an additional unit called outfit FAZ took the receiver output and supposedly helped. Picture of me on RFA Pearleaf adjusting a B40.


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## holland25 (Nov 21, 2007)

From my experience on the Olmeda and Olna,admittedly short,we not only used a lot of paper, but the electro-mechanical teleprinters as well. I eventually did the course and could disassemble and assemble one.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Good morning Holland25. I expect that was the Creed course in Brighton. I attended that in 1974. Dreadful noisy TPs. They took over from the Remington machines which were so reliable. The MoD reckoned Remingtons would not work well when the broadcasts were "speeded up" from 50 to 75 bauds although the US Navy had no problems with that. I suspect someone in high places had shares in Creed. Nice to see you could sort out the broken ones, it took me ages just to change a clutch!


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## holland25 (Nov 21, 2007)

G day.It was part of the long course at Collingwood.They were Creeds,we used to think that there shiploads of them following us around.It was tricky replacing the clutch.It did seem at the time to be the height of communication sophistication.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

The only teleprinter course I ever did was a 20 minute brief on the Mobil Australis. I was told that the main thing was to ensure that the tape ran into a nice clean "rosie" specially supplied for the purpose. I forgot that only once, to my cost.

One time I had to speak to the receiving operator but I didn't know if there was anyone there, so I typed: "Is there anyone there?" She replied: "Just us chickens." Sadly she couldn't help, the heavy lifters had all gone home.

I preferred morse.

John T


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Thanks for the link - very interesting indeed and brought me back 40 years when I was using this equipment.

Regards
Hugh


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Maybe they used Creed because that was what the GPO had decided to use... 
HMG sticking all their eggs in one basket.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

The next improvement in the Creed were semi electronic TPs. Forgotten who manufactured them. Only thing I remember was that they weighed a ton but were more reliable. I fitted a few of them in some of the Sir Class RFAs.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

Mad Landsman said:


> Maybe they used Creed because that was what the GPO had decided to use...
> HMG sticking all their eggs in one basket.


MIMCo also adopted the Creed 444 because, although I didn't consider them a patch on the Siemens T1000, they were a hell of a lot cheaper.

When trying to persuade reluctant UK shipowners to consider adding teletype, rather than sticking with Morse, the difference in price became a significant factor. Most of them decided to fit teletype purely on the basis of message cost-per-word compared to telegrams, but our Sales department were adamant that a minimal equipment price was also important.

And even a 444 cost more than a type 365B morse key. (Jester)


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

R651400 said:


> I think the GPO stuck with Creed (444) to the end but if the RN/RFA moved with NATO standards it could have been the Aroflex by Phillips which was a Siemens T1000 with an encryption unit under the keyboard.


Aroflex was used as an offline encryption system which replaced the Tsec KL-7 and another off line system, Outfit TLA more commonly known as the Literaliser. Aroflex's printer was not used as part of the broadcast receiving system.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Definitely not, R651400. It was a stand alone unit when I was using it.

Regards

KR


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Hello again R651400. It was not connected to a tx or an rx but used to produce an extremely encrypted set of 6 letter groups. These were then transmitted on the Naval ship shore frequencies either on HF or UHF or Marisat. The reason for encryption being that the message content was often restricted to a particular recipient and was not to be read by the whole fleet.


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## Bill.B (Oct 19, 2013)

Only sailed with the Creeds. The ROA on one ship had fixed one so often it met its fate using the radio room sledge hammer. The tools kit was a very useful set of instruments. Was mostly on SOPs ships and as long as the signal was strong the B40 and B41s were pretty good. We used to try and hang onto the B41 Lf signal as long as possible until changing over to HF. My biggest problem was having a crap watch for syncing so first job in Singapore was to buy a Seiko. That made life a lot easier. Most fun was running the tape through all the gear handles and then engaging the drive to watch it whizzing all over the place. The 12-4 could be a bit quiet at times! It was only once I came ashore and ran into Philips T1000 and what a great piece of gear that was.


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

In the latter days of GPO (and BT) Telex they had some machines which were more electronic than mechanical.
They came out under names like Puma, Cheetah, and other cats? 
I recall that they were much quieter. 
I only saw them while visiting other locations, never used one. 

Did they find their way onto ships? 
Does anyone know who the manufacturers were?


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Bill.B said:


> Only sailed with the Creeds. The ROA on one ship had fixed one so often it met its fate using the radio room sledge hammer. The tools kit was a very useful set of instruments. Was mostly on SOPs ships and as long as the signal was strong the B40 and B41s were pretty good. We used to try and hang onto the B41 Lf signal as long as possible until changing over to HF. My biggest problem was having a crap watch for syncing so first job in Singapore was to buy a Seiko. That made life a lot easier. Most fun was running the tape through all the gear handles and then engaging the drive to watch it whizzing all over the place. The 12-4 could be a bit quiet at times! It was only once I came ashore and ran into Philips T1000 and what a great piece of gear that was.


And here is the tool kit box, Bill B. For many years now it has been my walkabout tool box but not for Creeds.

Rab T


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## Bill.B (Oct 19, 2013)

That's cool Rab. I still have a couple of tools, ones with hooks on the end, that have come in good use over the years. They were going to send me on the Creeds course after Engadine but they said I could only go maintainer for one trip then back to normal. I had already resigned by then and went off to KH.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

I sailed with the last generation SITOR system by Thrane and Thrane.

Coupled with a Skanti TRP8250, it was brilliant. Completely automatic.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Troppo said:


> I sailed with the last generation SITOR system by Thrane and Thrane.
> 
> Coupled with a Skanti TRP8250, it was brilliant. Completely automatic.


Absolutely agree,Troppo. RFAs used Thrane and Thrane modem coupled to Marconi Conqueror transmitter. 

For Bill B. I still have the spring tension gauges in that box! Goodness knows what they might come in handy for.

Regards to All

KR


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Bill.B said:


> That's cool Rab. I still have a couple of tools, ones with hooks on the end, that have come in good use over the years. They were going to send me on the Creeds course after Engadine but they said I could only go maintainer for one trip then back to normal. I had already resigned by then and went off to KH.


Hello again Bill.B

Did you have a dentist's mirror with your tools?

R


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## Bill.B (Oct 19, 2013)

No Rab I only got a few of the tools which hooks on the end and some miniature pliers. As I was building model sailing barge parts on my trips they came in very handy. Will have to have a dig and see what is there.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

The Creed was certainly part of the DTN System where there must have been thousands of them, on land in G.B. the circuits were maintained by the G.P.O. and I suspect abroad due to security reasons.
Whoever had the contract to provide the paper and tape must have made a fortune. During Exercises all the Tapes and Paper copies were kept until the Exercise finished, then they were shredded and burnt.


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Not in my time, R651400. It was all punched tape in my time.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I remember the Armilla patrol 'guard ship' (an RFA?) had TOR - not, from memory, that that was the only method of contact. In my time, earlier, I don't recall making contact ever ship to ship with TOR did anyone else? I did, however, hear of it being used in on GMDSS to provide NBDP (how useful to change the mnemonic again) practice.

(On that subject the RN were keen to engage managers with the protection arrangements and so one of our ship managers was dispatched to ride home with Grey Funnel. I don't know if it was done for his benefit but her 'owner' had the ballast moved to put his cabin table horizontal to entertain his 'guests' despite this putting on a list).


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Good Evening Varley.
The RFA provided the comms co-ordination between the Merchant vessels and the Navy. I did this in the RFA Orangeleaf between 14 Nov 86 and Mar 87.
I still have my report to the MoD in Dec 86 listing the 24 vessels worked since arriving on station in the GOO (Gulf of Oman). 17 of these contacts were via Marisat since the ships were wary of transmitting on HF. We had a designated 8 Mhz HF channel to work the merchant ships with a unique selcall other than Orangeleaf's own. The mode used tended to be Forward Error Correction or Selective FEC. Occasionally ARQ was used. Received traffic was then passed to the Grey Funnel ship that was on station. I have the names of these 24 ships and wonder if you were on any of them.

Regards

KR


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

No KR. Mrs. V's little boy joined the office in 1981. When sent to show the management pennant whilst primitives remained unfriendly it was without your excellent protection, joining Al Farabi for a visit at KFK the day before the Teams crew boat Anita was mined there. Never mind, I moaned so much I got double bubble for the few weeks I was up there - mines had, to me, been an obvious risk for a nil benefit visit of your truly - poo-pooed by our MOD liaison prior to departure - it turned out not to be a nil benefit, not to the clients anyway, but it should have been. I then did a quick return trip to Karachi on Endurance Glory (ELFW9) Brian French had to bring her in to pick me up as the minings news had frightened the Dubai tug I had taken to meet her into staying very close to home (but doing so noisily). I doubt you would have still been using Marisat then although I did have under my wing a JUE 5A into this century which indeed could only cover former Marisat LES IDs. No longer able to 'do' telex it was surprisingly good at EMAIL on voice (or as good as anything was then). Interesting that you did work TOR ship to ship. I did have a conversation with someone in London but at this distance in time the details escape me but use of FEC rings a bell. We must have had Red Duster vessels going up there but I don't have any names I can offer you.


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

King Ratt said:


> Good Evening Varley.
> The RFA provided the comms co-ordination between the Merchant vessels and the Navy. I did this in the RFA Orangeleaf between 14 Nov 86 and Mar 87.
> I still have my report to the MoD in Dec 86 listing the 24 vessels worked since arriving on station in the GOO (Gulf of Oman). 17 of these contacts were via Marisat since the ships were wary of transmitting on HF. We had a designated 8 Mhz HF channel to work the merchant ships with a unique selcall other than Orangeleaf's own. The mode used tended to be Forward Error Correction or Selective FEC. Occasionally ARQ was used. Received traffic was then passed to the Grey Funnel ship that was on station. I have the names of these 24 ships and wonder if you were on any of them.
> 
> ...


Ha...I was in VJNV, a Shell 150000T VLCC and we were certainly not provided with that freq. Indeed, I remember calling the duty RFA at Hormuz and being told that the RN would not provide an escort for us, as the UK Gov't had stopped it....so much for the empire...

(Jester)

The crazy, trigger happy French obliged...that was a laugh a minute.

(Thumb)


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Troppo said:


> Ha...I was in VJNV, a Shell 150000T VLCC and we were certainly not provided with that freq. Indeed, I remember calling the duty RFA at Hormuz and being told that the RN would not provide an escort for us, as the UK Gov't had stopped it....so much for the empire...
> 
> (Jester)
> 
> ...


GM Troppo

The only Australian call letters in my report were for VJEB/BP Achiever Sitor 01117 on 30 Nov 86. Frequency 8299.1 Khz. RN were certainly escorting at that time. They used to wait until they had a decent sized convoy to escort through the Straits.
73

KR


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## King Ratt (Aug 23, 2005)

Varley said:


> No KR. Mrs. V's little boy joined the office in 1981. When sent to show the management pennant whilst primitives remained unfriendly it was without your excellent protection, joining Al Farabi for a visit at KFK the day before the Teams crew boat Anita was mined there. Never mind, I moaned so much I got double bubble for the few weeks I was up there - mines had, to me, been an obvious risk for a nil benefit visit of your truly - poo-pooed by our MOD liaison prior to departure - it turned out not to be a nil benefit, not to the clients anyway, but it should have been. I then did a quick return trip to Karachi on Endurance Glory (ELFW9) Brian French had to bring her in to pick me up as the minings news had frightened the Dubai tug I had taken to meet her into staying very close to home (but doing so noisily). I doubt you would have still been using Marisat then although I did have under my wing a JUE 5A into this century which indeed could only cover former Marisat LES IDs. No longer able to 'do' telex it was surprisingly good at EMAIL on voice (or as good as anything was then). Interesting that you did work TOR ship to ship. I did have a conversation with someone in London but at this distance in time the details escape me but use of FEC rings a bell. We must have had Red Duster vessels going up there but I don't have any names I can offer you.


Good Morning Varley

The "E" call signs in my report were: Eriskay/ELCF. I had several QSOs with her.
You beat me to that enlightened part of the globe. We called it "The PITS" or Portland in the Sun as it always seemed to be a continual navy work up for us.

73

KR


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## Troppo (Feb 18, 2010)

King Ratt said:


> GM Troppo
> 
> The only Australian call letters in my report were for VJEB/BP Achiever Sitor 01117 on 30 Nov 86. Frequency 8299.1 Khz. RN were certainly escorting at that time. They used to wait until they had a decent sized convoy to escort through the Straits.
> 73
> ...


Should have been more accurate, sorry - this was at the time of the Iran/Iraq war - 87/8, maybe. 

Yes, I remember the "BP Deceiver".. Never sailed in her.

73


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