# Please help me identify this ocean liner



## FotoFred (Apr 26, 2017)

Hello forum, my name is Fredrik, and I am new to this forum.
I found this forum as I was researching an old photograph (a glass negative) that I bought at a flea market when I was studying in the UK.
This picture tickles my curiosity bone, what ship is this, when is it, why does it seem to be so empty?
It has been suggested to me that it might be a wartime hospital ship by the casual attitude to dress (could be of duty nurses). In addition, that the sailors might be Australian. 

I think someone with knowledge might be able to identify the ship or type by the beams, and davits.

But I am very grateful for any information you might add to this mystery


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## YM-Mundrabilla (Mar 29, 2008)

FotoFred said:


> Hello forum, my name is Fredrik, and I am new to this forum.
> I found this forum as I was researching an old photograph (a glass negative) that I bought at a flea market when I was studying in the UK.
> This picture tickles my curiosity bone, what ship is this, when is it, why does it seem to be so empty?
> It has been suggested to me that it might be a wartime hospital ship by the casual attitude to dress (could be of duty nurses). In addition, that the sailors might be Australian.
> ...


FotoFred
If you post the photo in the Gallery in the unidentified ships section I suspect that you may receive a quicker and more comprehensive response there.
Geoff (YM)


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

My guess (particularly with reference to the uniforms of the sailors) is that she might well be a Cunard liner - possibly of the 1920s Franconia class?

Merely a guess, I hasten to add!

Why does the ship seem so empty? She might well be alongside, in port somewhere, waiting to embark passengers.


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## 5036 (Jan 23, 2006)

Is the net to segregate classes?


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Definitely British vessel. Note the uniforms.
One funnel seems to be opposite to Nos 1 & 2 boats (can see the shadow and the funnels guys are opposite these boats also.
Might be more but more five.
The upper boats are standard boats. Lower boats and definitely smaller, secondary boats with collapsible side. Can't see much if the. (Franconia boats were double banked and all of the same size.)
Quite open deck, like the type of vessel trading in the tropics.

Only ship I can find that is 'similar' is the RSMP ORBITA. Possibly!


Stephen


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

The proliferation of awning spars suggests trading in the tropics.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Yes, on the photo of stern view or ORBITA you can see some awning spars above some poop decks and some of the houses on the boat deck. Unfortunately I can't find a photo close enough to see in between the boats and the funnel.

Very few ships seem to have the rights davits, the same of two types of boats, the location of the funnel (with the shadow) etc. 

The sisters of ORBITA, like ORCA and ORDUNA are 'similar' but some photos also show different periods of the ship's lives and obviously boats configuration changed from time to time. Even davits could be changed over the years. The davits on the Cunarders CARONIA and CARMANIA were changed after postwar refits. 

Do you have the Kludas' Vol 1,2 and 3 up to 1938? Very few British liners come with same configuration as in the photo. I just need more photos to nail it! 

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Oh, I also forgot. The 'net' is for deck quoits game, not for segregating the classes. Looks like the sailors are just setting up chairs for the first tournament... Deck Crew v. Passengers!


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

I am unsure of my facts:However looking at the Davits, and the record of Built H&W Belfast, and the mentioned glass negative, from intuition and the type of davit and life boats (4 off in the picture- there are more but split along the side of ship into two distint groups?)) it suggests to me The white Star Liner Olympic, with the fashion of dress of the lady passenger in the mid 30's.
Why the Oylmpic she was scrapped in the mid to late 1930's, and I am aware of glass negatives of shipping out of the Mersey in the early 1900's.
This may confuse it may help. The buider H&W and the davit life boat design, manufacture may nail the vessels name??


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## FotoFred (Apr 26, 2017)

Thank you all very much!
Looking at the davits at the the Olympic, they do seem to be the same type.

I found this picture for comparison. But the deck seems to be to narrow? Would be fantastic if it was the Olympic thou 
Could also be the Orbita, I will at more pictures online.

I am also going to follow the advice of posting at the un identified ships section.
Thanks again!


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

FotoFred said:


> Thank you all very much!
> Looking at the davits at the the Olympic, they do seem to be the same type.
> 
> I found this picture for comparison. But the deck seems to be to narrow? Would be fantastic if it was the Olympic thou
> ...


interesting, again note life boat name and house flag below name. This is as you say the Olympic, but all white star life boats had this house flag emblem: I have a family life boat name plate and flag for the Newer Britannic 1930's.(Built in Germany)
If in your other pictures you can locate a lifeboat house flag.
Looking at the history of the White star The beam on photo;s from the SN Gallery I note that the Titanic, OLympic, and Britannic, and Laucetania? had similar life boat distributions about the ships length.
ThEn there are the reparations ships Majestic (Originally german build) so it is nailing I thing through H&W records and models who this ship is?
The fact of spa's suggesting east of suez trips, maybe a dream too far, but a sister ship in the Med in the 30's (Because of the ladies dress) may suggest other white star liners/cunarders or some ship to the antipodies? (Shaw Saville and Albion-Spelling please excuse?. 
My money is on the North America/Canadian emigration passages??
Good luck with your hunting.


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

I am here again, I note in blog #1 that started all this off about what ship? Reviewing the photo, I note the following no life boat name of number (Remember from my time at sea port odd numbers-starboard even numbers, and each lifeboat was identifiable with the parents ships name[ that was in the 1960's]? Now this photo##1 no life boat number or name? I wonder if the photo is pre the Titanic incident, when maybe life boat were provided, but not identified? { The ladies dress suggest much latter than 1912}. Maybe some gent out their reading the Titanic and Merchant shipping notices of just after the BOT Titanic Enquiry, my identify the actual date when lifeboats were required to be identifiable, both by number and name, for the benefit of both passengers/crew and rescuers after an action stations and abandon ship command had been given. In these cir***stances we are or you are looking at any H&W ship bulit and sailing before say 1923? or there-abouts?
Over too you.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

GOT IT!!!!!

Definitely not any WSL ship and not even a Belfast ship! Does have the Welin Davits, does have five boats (in the photo at least), but mine has a few more as well. Also has the right 'secondary' boats slung the upper boats etc etc. Even had the right Games Deck as well as the enclosed space for the boats and davit gear. Now am trying to attach a photo of the ship as well as a Deck Plan!

Stand By!

Stephen


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Blast!

I cannot attach the photo and plan.

Google Images and look for:

ORMONDE Orient Line 1919 photo of vessel

ORMONDE DECK PLAN - For Deck Plan. Clearly can see the layout of the deck as well as the Games Deck etc.

If it is not ORMONDE, I'll send a fiver!


Stephen


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

i am back again! I have been reviewing the MS ACT 1894, and Solas 1911-13 and 1927, and the Titananic Wikapedia site, and the Titanic Reports. I note that among these reports is a picture of the Titanic lifeboats-both ens sharp, can be fitted with a rudder either end, no ships name or house flag, and I note somewhere in the blurb lifeboats in the Solas 1911-13 had to be fitted either end capable of a rudder.
Apart from this the technical description of a lifebaot is given, and it is ''plated'' by an approving government surveyor.
No where in all this mass of technical detail is the actual written requirement by regulation, for a life boat to have its number or the ships name and POR.
Interesting what one assumes as common knowledge is just that common practice and not a regulation.
I leave you to think and ponder, there appears to be plenty of comments.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Rudder can be fitted at BOTH ends? Extremely unlikely. One end in sharp and the other blunt... even if both they look the same. The stern end will have a pintle and gudegon on the rudder. Never on the bow end.

Technical info on the boat might have a brass plate with the info or say on a wooden boat the mark might be carved on to the stem post. In the mystery photo yo can see that plate on the stem... the dark patch.

The name of the vessel on the boat and also the port of register. Does not have to be on the boat in the same position shown on TITANIC boats. It might even be on the gunwale. Possibly painted on or might even carved or even on a carved wooden board. Many possibilities.

Back to the mystery photo. Never mind the first boat. Look at the second boat. Enlarge the photo and have a look at the flaps of the boat canvas cover. Look at the flap and at the third strake of the white boat. You can see a black 'something' on the boat. It is the letter 'O'. Start of the name ORMONDE. On the first boat, the name is under that flap, just hidden to view. 

Good luck! Re TITANIC. The more questions you ask the more you will get! I think a lot of information come from 'researcher' think is from rules and regulations and instead should be looking at the things MIGHT have be done back in those days.

Stephen


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

[URL=http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 7[/URL] 

Stephen has the most likely and the most authoritative identification so far - which I don't challenge for a moment - but are they double-decker lifeboats?

In the original photograph at #1 , the boats are clearly high in their davits, with something on deck below them, which appear perhaps to be an early form of life-rafts, but unlikely to be other life-boats as such.


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## 5036 (Jan 23, 2006)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Blast!
> 
> I cannot attach the photo and plan.
> 
> ...


We are not worthy Stephen.

http://www.ssmaritime.com/RMS-Ormonde.htm

The photo captioned: 

"A fine view from the Bridge of the starboard side of A (Boat) Deck looking aft"

of the boat deck clinches it I think. The cream on the cake is the story of this amazing ship. Frederik, you struck gold. Keep and enjoy your lucky find.


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## FotoFred (Apr 26, 2017)

Yes, thank you very much Stephen and all others who contributed to the identification of this magnificent Wessel! (Bounce)

Thank you very much nav, the quality of this glass negative is amazing, it resulted in a scanned file that is 300mb plus. A printed copy already hangs on the wall in my hall. Now I have a back story to this image, which makes it so much more interesting! 

I enclose the final proof that nav mentions.


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## FotoFred (Apr 26, 2017)

_..."In 1922 Orient Line offered the British public the very first programme of cruises to Norway on the almost new liner, RMS Ormond, and the programme proved to be very successful and cruising would be continue throughout her lifetime"._

The icing on the cake for me!


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

#18 

My apologies! Now I've got it!

In the original photograph the secondary lifeboat is hidden by what appears to be a fall-drum, the hull of the secondary boat being visible just below the drum. Doh!


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## FotoFred (Apr 26, 2017)

And she keeps on giving, amazing!
_
.."She was despatched on May 30, 1940 to assist with the withdrawal from Narvik, north in Norway"._


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## FotoFred (Apr 26, 2017)

She really had an amazing life!


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

nav said:


> We are not worthy Stephen.
> 
> [.


LOL! I had to be sure. I had a fiver riding on it! ;-)

Stephen


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

well I will go to the foot of our stairs!!!


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## Didge (Jul 25, 2008)

*What a great story*



nav said:


> We are not worthy Stephen.
> 
> http://www.ssmaritime.com/RMS-Ormonde.htm
> 
> ...


I followed the link and was pleasantly rewarded to see the aerial photograph of RMS Ormonde in Melbourne in 1948 with the P&O Straithaird tied up behind her. I emigrated to Sydney in 1959 on the Straithaird as a £10 pom at the tender age of 3 with my parents and sister. We returned to UK in 1967 on the Ellinis so with so much shipping under my belt by the age of 13 it was a natural fit to join Bank Line 4 years later.


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## saudisid (Mar 17, 2014)

david freeman said:


> I am here again, I note in blog #1 that started all this off about what ship? Reviewing the photo, I note the following no life boat name of number (Remember from my time at sea port odd numbers-starboard even numbers, and each lifeboat was identifiable with the parents ships name[ that was in the 1960's]? Now this photo##1 no life boat number or name? I wonder if the photo is pre the Titanic incident, when maybe life boat were provided, but not identified? { The ladies dress suggest much latter than 1912}. Maybe some gent out their reading the Titanic and Merchant shipping notices of just after the BOT Titanic Enquiry, my identify the actual date when lifeboats were required to be identifiable, both by number and name, for the benefit of both passengers/crew and rescuers after an action stations and abandon ship command had been given. In these cir***stances we are or you are looking at any H&W ship bulit and sailing before say 1923? or there-abouts?
> Over too you.


David

Question the Port odd Stbd even numbers. Every ship I was in from 1965 it was Stbd Odd Port Even.

Rgds

Alan


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