# Perthshire



## mabdinor

Looking for assistance in identifying personnel from TSS Perthshire circa 1940's to send attached photo to


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## Barrie Youde

Are you certain that the photograph is from the 1940s?

I ask merely because one of the cadets in the front row is identical in appearance to a cadet known personally to me to have sailed in Perthshire in 1957/58/59.

Happy to give you further detail, if I might be right as to the approximate true date. If I might be right as to the date, then I could be quite certain as to the identity of the cadet.


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## Chris Isaac

Some of the men are wearing Clan Line uniforms while others are in standard MN. This would lead me to think that they are from two different ships or it is a war time picture.
If it was post 1956 then they would be wearing B&C cap badges rather than Clan Line ones.
I think the master is *Captain A J Hogg*
Not only does it look like him but if you look closely he is wearing a handkerchief in his top pocket in both, somewhat unusual and definitely a personal affectation.
Captain Hogg was master of Argyllshire from 1956 until his retirement in 1960. This would mean your picture is pre-1956.


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## Barrie Youde

Thank you for that, Chris.

Unfortunately my own suggested nominee crossed the bar some time ago. Thus I can help no further.

I agree that there do seem to be rather a lot of bodies available for representation from one ship.

I wonder where the ship might be? Fine weather. Men in blues. One (the agent?) in an (apparently) tropical civvy suit?


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## mabdinor

Hi Barrie & Chris Thanks for response. The photo was found in a box of family photos and we can find no connection. Based on your responses it seems more like 1950's The picture of Captain Hogg posted by Chris looks very similar to person in group photo. There is writing on the back "Ships company (European) TSS Perthshire Scottish Clan Line London ? Happy to mail and or email picture to person(s) connected to photo Thanks Mike Abdinor Cape Town


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## Barrie Youde

And thanks to you, Mike, for your puzzle. i did wonder whether it might have been Capetown.

The cadet I had in mind was Bill Owen (born 1941), who was just a little my senior in the Pilot Service at Liverpool. Anything pre-1956 would rule him out - but the likeness is striking.

Known throughout his life as "Tizzy", as was his father before him, sadly he died about ten years ago.


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## Chris Isaac

The number of officers is about right for Perthshire
On deck: Master, 3 mates and 2 cadets = 6
Engineers: Chief, 7 engineers, 3 Fridge engineers and a Boiler Maker = 12
Radio Officer = 1
Carpenters = 2
Purser/Chief Steward = 1
Total 22


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## Chris Isaac

A friend of mine has ventured a very plausible theory about the use of MN braid.
He thinks the photo was taken just after the war when the full Clan Line braid was in short supply and therefore standard MN braid was widely used.


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## Samsette

Would those blue battledress blouses still be part of the kit in the late Fifties?


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## Barrie Youde

#9 

In some cases, yes.

I remember seeing many.


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## seaman38

Chris Isaac said:


> A friend of mine has ventured a very plausible theory about the use of MN braid.
> He thinks the photo was taken just after the war when the full Clan Line braid was in short supply and therefore standard MN braid was widely used.


Probably right Chris, as an edict was issued early in WWII that the standard regulation MN braid was used instead of company livery during the war period, this was not a material saving reason but for identification purposes or capture, in the latter case it proved to be a self defeating, as from records most officers discarded their uniforms if having to take to the boats after being sunk, as U-Boat captains if taking prisoners usually took captains, Ch Officers and Chief engineers to deprive the MN of experienced personnel.

After the war clothing was rationed as was livery material, even though the MN got an enhanced clothing allowance, it took sometime for Company Livery to re-appear.

Battle Dress we usually wore this on deck as our working uniform, especially on trampers, it was also much easier to put on over a roll neck pullover when transitting the N Atlantic and such like seas, was still very popular right up to the '80's : uniform de riguer on the 0000-0400 watch, who wants a collar and tie at time!


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## Chris Isaac

seaman38 said:


> Probably right Chris, as an edict was issued early in WWII that the standard regulation MN braid was used instead of company livery during the war period, this was not a material saving reason but for identification purposes or capture, in the latter case it proved to be a self defeating, as from records most officers discarded their uniforms if having to take to the boats after being sunk, as U-Boat captains if taking prisoners usually took captains, Ch Officers and Chief engineers to deprive the MN of experienced personnel.
> 
> After the war clothing was rationed as was livery material, even though the MN got an enhanced clothing allowance, it took sometime for Company Livery to re-appear.
> 
> Battle Dress we usually wore this on deck as our working uniform, especially on trampers, it was also much easier to put on over a roll neck pullover when transitting the N Atlantic and such like seas, was still very popular right up to the '80's : uniform de riguer on the 0000-0400 watch, who wants a collar and tie at time!


Many thanks for this, your knowledge has been added to the Perthshire page on the B&C web site


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## Shipbuilder

Last time I saw battle dress at sea was in the early 60s in Furness Withy _Sagamore_. I had one myself when cadet in shore establishment, but never wore it at sea!
Bob


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## seaman38

Shipbuilder said:


> Last time I saw battle dress at sea was in the early 60s in Furness Withy _Sagamore_. I had one myself when cadet in shore establishment, but never wore it at sea!
> Bob


You must have sailed with some high class companies Bob, some of us had to be tramps (Cloud)

Tramps, now that's a whole new subject, longest trip 22 months, takes a long time to fill a Discharge Book! (K)


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## Shipbuilder

Sailed with all sorts, some of them under the same banner, but with different identities - Blue Star, Houlders, Furness Withy, Everards, South East Gas, Union Castle, Bowaters, Safmarine, Silver Line (tramps), Sitmar, Sivomar, Starbulk, St Helena Line - May 1961 to October 1992!
Bob


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## Barrie Youde

The main advantage of the battledress jacket over the standard reefer jacket is surely that it was less expensive to make and to buy?


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## Samsette

Byrom Street Army and Navy Store and a bottle of blue dye from Woolies?


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## holland25

Anybody remember patrol jackets? I sailed with an engineer in Harrison's who usd to wear one.


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## backsplice

I remember while with Currie's of Leith all the officers were issued with Patrol jackets I got a hand me down from the chief steward loved it !!!........ that was in 58


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