# The Great New v Old Debate



## Chris Isaac

I have seen much discussion (heated at times) about the merits of new passenger ships versus the grace of the old.
Most of us were at sea during the 50s 60s and 70s undoubtedly the zenith of the British Passenger Fleet.
My own personal views favour the old but I think many of us must feel a great deal of regret that absolutely nothing was done to preserve a little bit of that glorious heritage.
The Queen Elizabeth was allowed to go at the end of her useful life.
The Canberra and Windsor Castle, both hauled up a beach and ripped apart.
Only the Americans placed some value on that heritage and preserved the Queen Mary.
Cunard, P & O and Union Castle were the greatest of our shipping companies and we did very nearly nothing to preserve the past. I was for a time a member of the group trying to preserve Windsor Castle, it came to nothing as we could not find patronage or funding, despite approaching government and Royalty.
Its all well and good us all getting dewy eyed about the past but as a nation, we blew it!


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## Pat McCardle

Well said Chris & so very, very true!


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## Jan Hendrik

Preservation of ss Rotterdam is in progress.
She will be moored at a top location in Rotterdam by mid next year.


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## fredkinghorn

We always seem to want to preserve the past by public subscription. I cannot recall a, shipping company willing to hand over a redundant vessel and/or pay a part of its preservation.
In Scotland we have an abundance of old castles and houses that were "given" to the Nation as part of an Inheritance Tax deal. The owners still live in most of them and the upkeep is paid for by the taxpayer. 
It is the same with paintings etc. given over, they are supposed to be available to the public for viewing. Try and get to see any of them. To be honest, I think that the upkeep of a ship must cost an anormous amount of money. Better if we took the money and started a fund for ex.M.N. guys on hard times.

fred

" look forwards "


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## PatBaltic22

Chris, the White Star Line held some of the most famous British liners of all time also. Besides the Titanic, there were other extremely popular liners in Britain; the "Big Four" which consisted of the Baltic, Celtic, Cedric, and Adriatic. Not to mention the Britannic (1920), Olympic, and the tender Nomadic.


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## rstimaru

quite agree with you Chris. We do,nt do much to preserve our heritage. I think we are in a culture of what is in for me. What does it cost? ( too much get rid of it) Bob


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## Syd young

I could never understand why the Mary went to the USA of the Lizze went to Japan after all we preserve the Great Britain in Bristol and the Warrior and Victory in Portsmouth,and these are Royal naval ships so why are Liners second best.I am sure visitors to both ships would have been lucrative income,this country was their home(MAD)


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## PatBaltic22

Syd Young, 
Long Beach aquired the Queen Mary due to money set aside from oil drilling. They wanted a maritime museum and the RMS Queen Mary fit the bill. You're right though. I do not know why Great Britain let the Queen mary slip out of their hands. We both can say thought hat whatever country she lies in, at least she is preserved and that is what matters. Preserving maritime heritage is crucial for our future population to learn of the world's history and the Queen mary is a perfect example of the fine British maritime heritage.


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## RGascoyne

I saw Queen Mary in Long Beach a month ago and she is looking a bit run down. With all the tales of bankruptcy and who now owns her and the debts, I guess the maintenance budgets are beginning to dry up. Her funnels have been bleached a horrible orange by the sun. If I can work out how, I will post a photo of her near sunset. BTW the QE(1) went to Hong Kong where she caught fire and was lost, while being converted to become a floating university.


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## Santos

The main problems now are the property developers who seem to me to want to obliterate any sign or example of maritime history whether Naval or Merchant.

Here on Merseyside there are number of examples of this. The Historic Warships have been evicted because of property development. The Liverpool Dock System is being decimated and filled in because of property development, and the famous Bar Lightship 'Planet' is in line for eviction from the Albert Dock, because in the words of certain business people ' she is not suitable for the Albert Dock ', she takes up too much room.

Soon Liverpool will have nothing of Maritime History left. It will consist of large expanses of luxery waterfront flats,appartments and offices which nobody can afford or want.


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## reklaw

Santos said:


> The main problems now are the property developers who seem to me to want to obliterate any sign or example of maritime history whether Naval or Merchant.
> Soon Liverpool will have nothing of Maritime History left. It will consist of large expanses of luxery waterfront flats,appartments and offices which nobody can afford or want.


I suspect a similar thing is happening in Cape Town at the V&A waterfront, the accent is no longer on "working harbour" but on yuppies, expensive apartments, image, glitz and glamour. I dont know if its true but the maritime museum has been closed, the Alwyn Vintcent has been left to rot, the historic buildings have lost their history and ships and harbours do not feature in the grand scheme of things. Cape Town should have been the one that brought the Windsor Castle home, but it did not even feature on their future plans at all. Sorry to say but South Africa's history of shipping preservation is atrocious too.


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## Jeff Taylor

I stayed onboard the Mary last spring during the QM/QM2 photo op when they met in Long Beach, and I concur that she is looking a bit run down, and honestly somewhat spooky at night in the hotel accomodatios. In case you hadn't heard, however, the operators and the town have finally resolved their differences, and are in the process of leasing a major parcel of land adjacent to the ship for development, and some of the proceeds are going to be used for major upgrades to the ship. Several plans are being evaluated, but the general focus will be to get rid of a lot of the tacky retail/food operations and exhibits which were added over the years, and restore major portions of the former public areas to their original glory. Don't hold your breath, but it sounds good.


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## Rutts

Although she is not of the same calibre as passenger liners, the museum ship "Cap San Diego" which is moored in Hamburg still recieves contributions from her original owners Hamburg Sud for her upkeep and preservation. It was a year ago she was given an overhaul by Bohm + Voss that enabled classification and her return to seaworthiness. She is a living example of a vessel that dates back to the early 60's and the period before containerisation.


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## Old Se Dog

this is an old thread - but here goes - the great debacle - ship preservation - simple all good and well to say one must restore or preserve a ship - be it passenger - cargo - tug or naval - the fact of the matter is down to sheer economics and participation - as in - getting involved - psychically - the queen mary in la while rusted and aging - is still around - the rotterdam - still with us - the qe2 - restored - albeit - not to everyones liking - the oldest passenger ship that i am aware of - doulos - she sailed as the franca c - just completed and restored - by private funding - back home 3 tugs and 3 naval craft - still with us - although the sas somerset is earmarked for demolition - my point - to easy to say lets restore and preserve - another thing to apply - the list of ships that were deemed as necessary to preserve is quite large but not everyone can will or ever make the cut - the biggest sham is the united states - 50 odd years and she is still not anywhere near restored despite all the monies and generated interest in getting her back to her former glory - my personal opinion - scrap her - for the record - i m old school


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## geoffu

What is the point of going on one of these "cruise" ships? You could spend the whole week/10 days or whatever and not even SEE the SEA,except when you board or leave.. You might as well go to an all in holiday somewhere exotic and never leave the "compound". The words morons and cretins come to mind, along with head and dick.


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## geoffu

As an add on, about preservation, one ship that should have been preserved completely not only for historical reasons but for the beauty of its lines and the old world engineering that made it, was the Rajula.
I believe that sometime in the 50's, BI tried to use a guarantee to get a crankshaft replaced because it had a crack in it. Remember, the ship was built in 1926. Running between Madras and Singapore it would answer any SOS anywhere in the world, saying it was on its way at 12kn.
I was 4th eng. on it for two weeks and loved every minute.
Geoff.


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## dannic

geoffu said:


> What is the point of going on one of these "cruise" ships? You could spend the whole week/10 days or whatever and not even SEE the SEA,except when you board or leave.. You might as well go to an all in holiday somewhere exotic and never leave the "compound". The words morons and cretins come to mind, along with head and dick.


The point of going on a cruise is being at sea!! Sitting having a cold beer as you hear the engines start up for departure, the view of the sun going down, with a cold beer in hand.....like used to be able to do some years ago!!
Dannic


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## geoffu

Yeah Dannic, sitting on deck after the 12-4 @ 0400 after a nice shower, having a cold tinny (or two, or just one more for the road) with your oppo on the bridge and the fiver and maybe a cadet Watching the black mirror of the Indian Ocean broken with flying fish and watching the sun come up.
The trouble with the passengers is that most of them will be watching a cabaret, in a gym or sauna, having a massage sitting in one of the bars, watching a movie, shopping or doing the myriad other things that the company can think up to keep them busy and spend money.
Geoff.


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## Stephen J. Card

Some years ago I made several cruises in the old ROTTERDAM... now a museum/hotel in Rotterdam. Every evening passengers would come out on the REAL promenade deck. Groups, couples, singles.... all is best dress, promenading. Three our four lap and then back to the Oceaan Bar. This is in the late 90s. Not that far ago. Today Cruise Directors and the bosses want people to do this or that... anything to make you forget you are on a ship. Sad.


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## holland25

geoffu said:


> Yeah Dannic, sitting on deck after the 12-4 @ 0400 after a nice shower, having a cold tinny (or two, or just one more for the road) with your oppo on the bridge and the fiver and maybe a cadet Watching the black mirror of the Indian Ocean broken with flying fish and watching the sun come up.
> The trouble with the passengers is that most of them will be watching a cabaret, in a gym or sauna, having a massage sitting in one of the bars, watching a movie, shopping or doing the myriad other things that the company can think up to keep them busy and spend money.
> Geoff.


The cruises I have been on were not like that at all. True all those attractions were available but if all you wanted to do was go and watch the sun come or go down, or stand at the stern and watch the wash that was fine. I don't recall being coerced into anything and there were plenty of quiet spots.My wife is perhaps not as besotted with being at sea as I was, was able to play mahjong with a group of ladies, and certainly enjoyed some of the entertainment, including the meals with different people. I can see why it may not appeal to some but I wouldn't condemn it out of hand.


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## Stephen J. Card

If you want to enjoy a cruise... don't go ashore! 90% of the passengers are ashore. The decks are quiet. No problem getting a deck chair. Restaurants are quiet. You can have beautiful days. "The best islands in the Caribbean have two propellers!"


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## David Wilcockson

The Arcadia has recently departed Durban heading for Tenerife, would anyone know if she has disembarked her passengers as she is slow steaming at present.


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## Old Se Dog

*arcadia*

she was allowed to moor in durban - for bunkering purposes only


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## old mariner

deleted


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