# Plans Drawing



## Shipbuilder

Having grown a bit weary of building models recently, I thought I would have a go at drawing plans. Here is my first attempt. Not perfect, but I enjoyed doing it and am fairly happy with it. Noticed after I scanned it that I had missed off the buntlines above the yards on the fore topsails & lower t'gallant, but I have since added these. It took three days. The deck and profile plans took about the same length of time.
Bob


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## Peter Fielding

Wonderful! Wish I had your patience.


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## Shipbuilder

Thanks Ptere,
I don't have much patience either though. Whilst I was drawing it, I was listening to a talking book from the library, so the time passed quickly enough. I found it quite relaxing!
Bob


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## Shipbuilder

I have now completed plans of the small Welsh brig _Evelyn_, of 1877. Again, quite enjoyable and a great change from model shipbuilding.
Bob


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## tyneboy

From what I can see you have done a great job detailing the rigging and producing a nice clean drawing.
I was a time served ships draughtsman and so had many opportunities to draw various ships, firstly using ink on linen and recently using autocad.
I remember doing some work on the rigging for the Stavros S Niarchos and I had to mark up a drawing with all the names of the standing rigging, yards, sails etc just so I could understand what the client was talking about when he was discussing the job over the telephone


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## tyneboy

by the way whatr scale are you using and what are you using to draw the plans


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## Shipbuilder

Thanks,
The _Pass of Brander_ was done at 16 feet to 1 inch because she was a big ship. The _Evelyn_, being only 104 feet long, was done at 10 feet to 1 inch. They are my first & 2nd attempts at this sort of thing. I used a pack of Micron Fineliner pens that I got for our anniversary to do the drawings. The were done on normal drawing paper. After I completed _Pass of Brander, _ I noticed I had left some buntlines out over two or three of the foremast yards, but have since added them.
Bob


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## Shipbuilder

Just completed another sail plan, the barque _Lady Elizabeth_. Still have the deck plan to draw up though!
Bob


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## gretaston

you truly amaze me shipbuilder, you are a gifted man.
Gretaston.


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## Shipbuilder

Thanks Gretaston,

All obsolete knowledge though, I am afraid. I see that I missed the lifts off the fore upper topsail, t'gallant & royal! They are the loops of rigging that are visible on the corresponding sails on the mainmast! I will add them today!

There is little or no interest in things like this outside Ships Nostalgia, more's the pity!

Bob


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## Jim the Sawyer

That is some awesome work, Shipbuilder, and it is not obsolete work. You could probably sell your works if you found the right markets. For instance, the Squadron/ Signal books always use line drawings. If you can find an author who is looking for an illustrator, or a publisher looking for one, it could be a good thing.


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## Shipbuilder

Jim,
Thanks. I have just looked at Squadron/Signal books, but they are mainly aircraft or warships and I am strictly Merchant Ships.
I am an author myself and that is what I intend the drawings for. But I am not really overwhelmed with success when it comes to writing books. 

Click on
Miniature Merchant Ships
(below) for more info.

I am more of a success in article writing, but it is usually a year from acceptance to publication and I don't have much patience!
Bob


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## R58484956

*Bob*, Another title to add to your collection, Shipbuilder, Film director and now Draughtsman. Just when will these titles stop.


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## joe732

Shipbuilder

Great drawings and echo the previous comments.

Can you tell me if you done them with the aid of photographs, old drawings etc, or is it all from memory? (Not that I mean you can remember back to 1877 etc)

Joe


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## Shipbuilder

Thanks for replies,
The drawings are as accurate as I can make them. Of the above drawings:
_*Pass of Brander*_
I had the hull and deck arrangement from records left by the ship's captain/part owner, James Learmont. I did not know him, but his drawings appeared in an ancient magazine. Using dimensions from Lloyds Register, I confirmed that everything was the correct size and drew a hull plan from it. The sail plan was made from other drawings by someone else and the lead of the braces etc taken from clear photographs of the ship.
_*Evelyn*_
Dimensions from Lloyds Register, deck arrangement from numerous photographs taken aboard and of the ship in harbour or under sail.
_*Lady Elizabeth*_
Dimensions from from Lloyds Register, plus a large number of photographs and a painting. And last but not least, a personal survey of the hulk in Stanley Harbour during 1982/83 when I was able to board on a number of occasions.

Since then, I have drawn plans of the stump t'gallant full-rigged ship _*Fairport*_, that lies sunk at St. Helena. I had a copy of the original sail plan for that and a number of photographs and have also looked down on the wreck (snorkeling).

A few days ago, I completed the skysail yard four-masted barque _*Drumrock*_, using a genuine sail plan plus photographs and Lloyds details.

I draw them on good quality drawing paper using Micron fine-liner drawing pens, flexible curves and French curves. 

It makes a change from model building etc.

Bob


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## joe732

Thanks for the details Shipbuilder

I should have recognised the 'Lady Elizabeth', (my memory, nothing to do with your plans).

I don't think the state of it now will permit any sort of boarding but could be wrong.

Joe


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## joe732

Shipbuilder

What size paper, or did it depend on the particular plan?

Sorry, just can't get impression of completed plan via thumbnail.

Thanks


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## China hand

Shipbuilder

You would be amazed at the audience your stuff has. 

A choir I am with sing shanties with all sorts of rigging shouted about. With the choir being Dutch and not too many old shipping term dictionaries around, I do quite a bit of translating with pictures. These of your sail and rigging plans are super.

Lovely work, thank you. (Applause)


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## Shipbuilder

Thanks for further replies.
The _*Lady Elizabeth*_ sail plan measures 23 inches by 16 inches. The images reproduced above were simply photographs taken with a digital camera with the plan (taped onto 3 plywood) propped against a wall!
I get them reduced properly in town, so there is no distortion.
But I can honestly say that until the above replies, there has been very little interest in them either here or anywhere else!

I like to draw them at 16'=1". I know that is a bit small, but my models are normally 32'=1" so I am more at ease with miniature scales.

Bob


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## joe732

Shipbuilder said:


> But I can honestly say that until the above replies, there has been very little interest in them either here or anywhere else!
> 
> Bob


Probably in these days of autocad and everything being computerised, people probably don't realise or appreciate the work and time gone into them.

Joe


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## Jim the Sawyer

Do you, or does anybody, have a good drawing like one of these that labels all the important parts of a ship? (or schooner, barque, brig, etc. . . .) I suppose a quarter view drawing might be better that a side elevation for those purposes. But just wondering if there is a resource like this I can look at.

Yes, Squadron/signal are only about military machinery and units, from what I can see. But there should be other books being published that can make use of such drawings.

If nothing else, frame them and sell them. You could do it either as originals or prints. I'll bet you could sell them to seafood restaurants, among other things.


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## Shipbuilder

The book "Sailing Ships Rigs & Rigging" by Harold A. Underhill, covers the rigs pretty well. Find copies on www.bookfinder.com 

There aren't plenty of books about merchant sailing ships! The vast majority concentrate on Napoleonic type warships. The late David R. MacGregor produced some fine books on commercial sail, but he only got as far as 1875. 

Most of the British public simply aren't interested in merchant sail, steam or anything else like that. Warships reign supreme in their interests. I gave up a long ago!(Cloud) I will probably use the plans for relatively short articles on model shipbuilding. I have been a regular writer for Model Shipwright (Now the annual Shipwright) for quite number of years and the pay is infinitely better than writing books. My last book, "The Voyage Is Done & The Winds Don't Blow" was a limited edition of 50 copies, but even when the last 7 have sold, it will barely break even(EEK) It was a labour of love more than anything else. I am long-retired, so it doesn't really matter much. It is more something to keep me occupied than anything else.

Bob

PS The following books, also by Harold A. Underhill are very comprehensive on the subject of commercial sail:
Deepwater Sail
Masting & Rigging The Clipper Ship & Ocean Carrier


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## Jim the Sawyer

Thank you, Shipbuilder. Just a thought- you may find more interest for your subject in America than you realize. How much are you selling your book for?


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## Shipbuilder

Jim,
I have sent you a PM.
Bob


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## China hand

Leave her Johnny, leave her ?


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## Stephen J. Card

Bob, 
A grand job you are making of these plans. As a marine artist I find them invaluable. All of the Underhill books are a must. The two others that I enjoy and use frequently are Seamanship in the Age of Sail - Harland and Masting & Rigging of English Ships of War - Lees.

Just by coincidence I had a call this morning from the head of the Bermuda office of Jardine & Mathieson. Their first vessel was the brig FAIRY built 1833 in Liverpool. They are looking to commission a large model of the vessel and are looking for plans etc. My first response was that I didn't have any but I knew someone who might! So... any ideas? Or if you have access to any drawings of the vessel and can make up a set of plans for a model builder then there should be some financial reward for you. If you aare interested, please send me a PM. 

And good luck with the drawings. They are appreciated.

Stephen


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## Shipbuilder

Yes, that is it!
I was listening to it on U-tube about the time when I was trying to think of a title and felt that it would be most appropriate:
http://youtu.be/amok6bFmCdU

If you don't want to hear all the idle chatter, push it up to 2 minutes 19 seconds which is when he starts the song!

Bob


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## Shipbuilder

Stephen,
Thanks. I doubt if there is anything to find about the _Fairy_, as it was rather a long time ago! I looked in the 1843 Lloyds Register and it is not there! It was probably just built, without any plans, something that was very common at the time. Also, rather too early for me. I am more interested in the iron and steel wool clippers of the 60s and 70s and then the big "windjammers" of the 80s and 90s.
Bob


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## Shipbuilder

Here is the _Pass of Brander_ that I built from the plans. I don't think I have put it on before. 
Bob


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## Jim the Sawyer

Ok, so, I'm learning my rigging types. That one is a barque?

I'd like to get to the point where I can recognize every type of sailing vessel, or at least the more common ones, upon sight.


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## oldman 80

Jim the Sawyer said:


> Ok, so, I'm learning my rigging types. That one is a barque?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to get to the point where I can recognize every type of sailing vessel, or at least the more common ones, upon sight.[/
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> (Applause)
> That's a good objective - as good as any, I suggest.
> Good Luck.(Thumb)
Click to expand...


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## Shipbuilder

Yes, it is a barque. But the title should be qualified as four-masted barque because a barque can have three, four or five masts. To be a barque, it must have at least thee masts and all but the last one (at the stern must be fully square-rigged. You could have a six or seven masted barque, but none were ever built. Quite a few five-masted ones were produced though.
Bob


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## Jim the Sawyer

Shipbuilder said:


> Yes, it is a barque. But the title should be qualified as four-masted barque because a barque can have three, four or five masts. To be a barque, it must have at least thee masts and all but the last one (at the stern must be fully square-rigged. You could have a six or seven masted barque, but none were ever built. Quite a few five-masted ones were produced though.
> Bob


So a barque is slightly better at sailing toward the wind, than a full-rigged ship?


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## Shipbuilder

I believe barques did sail better than full-rigged ships (square-rigged on all masts). This was discovered when ships were converted to barques by removing the square sails from the last mast. It was done for economic reasons in the final days of sail, but many of them performed better as barques.

The Voyage Is Done book link is now in you inbox. Please let me know approximately how long it takes to download. I have not sent one to US before.
Best wishes
Bob


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## Jim the Sawyer

Thank you, Bob, I will download it right now. (Bounce)


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## Jim the Sawyer

It took all of about 2 minutes, Bob! I'm looking at it now.


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## Jim the Sawyer

Great work, Bob, I am maybe about half way through it! It really is a good look at the times and conditions back then. 
(Applause)


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## Shipbuilder

Thanks Jim,
That was a reasonable download time for over 40mB, I have never sent one to the US before! You must be a fast reader to get through half of it so soon. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the rest of it. I suppose it took about a year to write. I am actually 3/4 way through a follow-up of 1939 to 1990, but have for the moment abandoned it because of a general lack of interest. Loads of booksellers all over the world advertise The _Voyage is Done_ book (without any reference to me) although they do not actually stock it. If anyone tries to buy it from them, they wait a couple of weeks and then refund the money and say "not available!"(MAD) I can only assume that the "big boys" resent anyone self-publishing! 
Best wishes
Bob


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## Jim the Sawyer

Bob, my mom is a published author, with more than 40 fiction books sold in the past ten years or so. She struggled for quite a few years, trying to sell her first book. Finally, she hired a publishing agent, and her career took off from there. She never self-published any books, but has sold quite a few. She also co-authored three books with my sister, who lives in the UK now.

I do know that books on all different historical topics sell very well here in the US, especially with many pictures. The more pictures the better. The pictures can be photos, paintings, line drawings, maps, charts, and a combination of all of the above.

(Thumb)


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## Shipbuilder

Jim
I have had a book published conventionally, _RMS St Helena & The South Atlantic Islands_, ISBN 1904445241.
I completed writing it in 1999 and did not find a publisher for five years. Initially, it was three or four times the size that it finally turned out to be, but they edited most of it away. Initially it covered all my years at sea, early 1961 to late 1992 serving in 19 ships from colliers up to passenger liners. It was called _It All Rubs Off When Its Dry_.
The only part that was published was my last two ships, _RMS St. Helena_ (I) and _RMS St. Helena _(II)!

It was published in 2006 and quickly sold out. But I can’t imagine I would ever go down that route again. Too much was edited out and it took years to get into print. The financial reward was not all that great. The contract was for 12.5% of the selling price per book (£14.99 RRP). I thought that was excellent, but what I did not realise was that the publisher sold them to booksellers, Amazon etc at vastly reduced prices and my 12.5% was of the reduced figure.

I write regular articles for a major nautical publishing company and the pay amounts to about £40 per hour! 

With self publishing, I do not have to suffer the indignity of excessive editing, neither do I have to wait years to see it in print. As soon as the voyage book was completed, I sent it to the printer online in the same way that I sent it to you. 7 days later, the books all arrived, printed on high quality silk paper to a very high standard. 

I had 50 printed and there are 7 left. It is these online book sellers that have done for it really. It is currently advertised online by one seller who claims to have 10 new copies and wants about £24 each for them (ridiculous price!). But of the 50 books produced, I can account for where 43 of them went and, of these, only two went to a bookseller! The remaining seven are still with me. I tried to contact the seller, but got an automatic message saying they were so busy that they don’t answer e-mails! 

At the age of 69, it doesn’t really matter and I expect I will continue to produce them, but I don’t have any illusions that they will ever take-off. 

Looking at nautical books by famous authors such as Richard Woodman etc, they don’t seem to be selling very well either, despite their excellence.

What it really amounts to is that there is very little interest in the history of the Merchant Navy these days. 

I also thought a Publishing Agent would be a good idea, but that was a complete disaster. A lot of them just ignored me, whilst others said that they would read my manuscripts for a fee (usually 60 or 70 pounds) with no guarantee of them finding a publisher anyway, and if they did – even more fees! Several said that they only took on established authors!

My greatest success is in model shipbuilding e-books on CD disks. Produced 100% by myself, from writing them to preparing, labeling and boxing the disks.

Best wishes
Bob


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## falkphil

*Lady Elizabeth Stanley Falkland Islands*

Hello from Stanley Falkland Islands.
2013 marks the centenary of the arrival of the Lady Elizabeth into Stanley Harbour. As a local dealer in all things collectible from this part of the world, I am interested in commemorating this event through the making of suitable souvenir items for local collectors and the passing visitor market. I try to marry the efforts of local artisans with like minded people overseas who have the skills required to help manufacture goods. Plenty of postcards exist with the ship as she is now, a bit of a wreck, but there is nothing showing her under full sail, in full rig, or even plans of the original design.
Anyone with ideas or can assist with breathing new life into the most photographed ship in the Falkland Islands ?


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## Shipbuilder

There are quite a number of photographs of the ship when she was sailing. The National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, has two good photographs, but they charge ridiculous prices for copies (teens of pounds for a small print) and if they get wind of you wanting them for commercial purposes, they charge a lot more!
San Francisco has one of the ship under sail and also Picture Australia.
The original plans no longer exist. I searched extensively for them years ago. After several visits to the hulk in 1982/83, I was able to draw up my own plans (although I have not done the deck plan yet!).
You will see that I have put a figurehead on, where the hulk just has a crudely carved lump of wood. The ship was launched with a figurehead, but it was lost early in her career and never replaced.
Bob


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## falkphil

*Lady Elizabeth Stanley Falkland Islands*

Bob
Thanks for the information and great drawing and model. Better than anything we have in the Islands. A local artist has completed a picture of the ship in full sail rounding MacBride Head, before hitting the Uranie rock. Interesting to know about the figure head.
All I need now is a way of turning good art into commercial profit.
Phil


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## Shipbuilder

Phil,
Thanks. Here are a load of photographs of _Lady Elizabeth_.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/picture/result?q=ship+lady+elizabeth 
I made the model 30 years ago!
When I was in Stanley, I purchase a large print of the ship under sail from the Pink Shop. I am pretty sure it originated in San Francisco.
Bob


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## falkphil

Bob,
Thanks for the link to the pictures. The local artist who painted the picture of Lady Elizabeth, worked in the Pink Shop when you visited Stanley, and probably sold you the large print !! Small world.
Phil


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## Shipbuilder

I remember selling him a pile of model shipbuilding books that I had published just before leaving the UK for Stanley. "The Art of Modelling Merchant Ships!" Sold out years ago, but they still keep turning up on the internet for really ridiculous prices(Thumb)
I also visited John Smith, wreck expert. Years later, I supplied details of the wreck of the _Criccieth Castle_ to someone in Stanley who thought the lifeboat that landed on Cape Pembroke from _Criccieth Castle_ was still there. I am pretty sure it was handed over to a Merchant ship during WWII that had lost a boat, and was herself later sunk in the conflict.
Bob


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