# Sea Time required for Master (FG)



## Stephen J. Card

Does anyone remember what the sea timerequirements were for Certificates of Competency for 2nd mate, Mate and Master (FG).... back in the 1950s.

In the 1970s, the basic rule was 4 years to 2nd Mate and then three years to Master. Mate (FG) could be sat with 12 months sea time after 2nd Mate or your could do 2 years with 2nd Mate and then 12 months with Mate (FG). The total was 7 years.

Reduction in sea time for 2nd mate could be earned for time spent in college on ONC or OND etc or time spent at one of the pre-sea training schools like Conway o Worcester.

Chatting with an old friend today who sat Master's back in teh 1950s he was telling me that candidates required twenty four months between 2nd Mate and Mate and another 24 months between Mate and Master.

Can anyone confirm?

Thanks.

Stephen


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## John Briggs

Stephen,

I took all my tickets between 1959 and 1964.
Cadet time was 3 years and seven months as I got a reduction in time for being on a training ship. The standard requirement was 4 years.
2nd mate to mate was 18 months - not sure of the minimum requirement.
Mate to master was 2 years 8 months.

Hope that helps.


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## Wallace Slough

Under U.S. Flag in the 1960's, the requirements were as follows:
3 years in the Maritime Academy, including 3 voyages of about 3 months each on the training ship to sit for original Third Mates License. All of the Maritime Academy's have changed to 4 year tuition since that time.
1 year of sea time as Third Mate to sit for Second Mates License.
1 year of sea time as Second Mate, or two as Third Mate while holding a Second Mates License to sit for Chief Mate.
1 year of sea time as Chief Mate, or 2 as Second Mate while holding a Chief Mates License to sit for Masters License.
Assuming that berths were available to sail in the capacity of one's license, which they often were not except during wartime, a Master's License could conceivably be obtained in 6 years. All times were based on sea time as verified by discharges, and time on the beach between ships would not count.


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## Stephen J. Card

Wallace Slough said:


> Under U.S. Flag in the 1960's, the requirements were as follows:
> 3 years in the Maritime Academy, including 3 voyages of about 3 months each on the training ship to sit for original Third Mates License. All of the Maritime Academy's have changed to 4 year tuition since that time.
> 1 year of sea time as Third Mate to sit for Second Mates License.
> 1 year of sea time as Second Mate, or two as Third Mate while holding a Second Mates License to sit for Chief Mate.
> 1 year of sea time as Chief Mate, or 2 as Second Mate while holding a Chief Mates License to sit for Masters License.
> Assuming that berths were available to sail in the capacity of one's license, which they often were not except during wartime, a Master's License could conceivably be obtained in 6 years. All times were based on sea time as verified by discharges, and time on the beach between ships would not count.



Good grief! Having to do double time just because you were not sailing in the higher rank of that certificate. That could add two additional years to total time required. Ouch!

Funny in a way because I was able to sail as 3rd mate..instead of cadet for two months before sitting for 2nd Mates. The examiner cancelled the time and gave me a two month penalty. Under the US system I'd have earned a two montn credit!


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## Wallace Slough

Since I graduated from the schoolship in 1966 during the Vietnam War, I was able to sail on my license in the appropriate grade as berths were available. I was 20 when I graduated from school, and 25 (almost 26) when I obtained my Masters License.

I always felt I'd done pretty well until recently researching my father in law's experience during WWII. He was 20 when he graduated from the schoolship, and obtained his Masters License 2 days before his 25th birthday! He got his first command, the Liberty Ship Frank Springer, when he was 26.


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## oldseamerchant

Wallace Slough said:


> Since I graduated from the schoolship in 1966 during the Vietnam War, I was able to sail on my license in the appropriate grade as berths were available. I was 20 when I graduated from school, and 25 (almost 26) when I obtained my Masters License.
> 
> I always felt I'd done pretty well until recently researching my father in law's experience during WWII. He was 20 when he graduated from the schoolship, and obtained his Masters License 2 days before his 25th birthday! He got his first command, the Liberty Ship Frank Springer, when he was 26.


A hard act to follow Wallace.


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## Pilot mac

I was penalised for having some HomeTrade stamps in my discharge book, seem to recall it only counted for half time? Crazy !

regards
Dave


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## Binnacle

An older brother went to sea in 38, was able to sit for 2/M three years later as sea time requirements had been reduced. Sailed away in 41 and didn't get back until 45. Passed for mate in 45 then shifted into master's class and passed for master without need for further seatime.


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## jimthehat

on a recent cruise I asked the navigator(senior second mate)how was his orals for master especially the deviascope and he looked at me with big blank eyes and said"what is a deviascope?that certainly dated me.

jim


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## Davie M

I think i have managed to attach a copy of sea time requirements
from Nicholls.
It seems to have worked but will need enhancing to read.
Davie


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## Bigmo

I seem to remember getting time and a half seatime while sailing as mate with a mates ticket between Mates and Masters


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## oldseamerchant

Bigmo said:


> I seem to remember getting time and a half seatime while sailing as mate with a mates ticket between Mates and Masters


That's interesting as I certainly did not get anything extra for sailing certificate of rank which I did for the full time whilst holding a First Mate (FG).


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## jactaa

After passing 2nd Mates my first ship as 3rd Mate was a 37,000 dwt crude oil carrier.
12 1/2 month trip and then back to college to study for a Mates ticket. Needed 12 months seatime.


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## 8575

I seem to recall that home trade counted as two thirds deep sea time when counting for tickets.

I took a leisurely route to the exams! 3years 4months 9days as cadet including pre-sea and MAR. 2nd Mates in 1970, 1st Mates in 1973 and Masters in 1977 - roughly eleven years from start to Masters ticket. Doubt if I could pass the exams these days.


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## Stephen J. Card

Leisurely route? Difficult to rack up the sea time in the mid to late 70s when leave was four on four off.

Command of a Liberty at 26. Fantastic!

I sat masters in two parts, writtens in '79 and orals in '82 when I had the sea time. Sent out to take command within ten days with nothing more than a 'pass slip' in my pocket. 10,000 grt, 3 forward, 3 aft and a full set of derricks. Worse thing that anyone said to me on that first trip was "You have two starts left!"

.


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## oldseamerchant

Steady on now! Your making the rest of us feeling inadequate.


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## Wallace Slough

"You have two starts left"
Love it! That got more than a smile in response from this retired pilot sitting safely on the beach!


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## Boatman25

Was that before the battery went flat


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## randcmackenzie

Hello Stephen et al.

In the sixties, you needed 36 months sea time to present for Second Mate's, which was quite possible under a 4 year apprentice ship.

You then needed 12 months watch keeping sea time to present for Mate's. If you had 18 months or more, 6 months could be put to your sea time for Master's, for which you needed a further 30 months watch keeping.

I was lucky enough to pass them all first time round, apart from the odd 2nd crack at signals, and got Master's at 27.

Denholm thought me sufficiently experienced to give me my first command at 32. 

What a beauty she was, too!


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## Roger Harrison

I started Indentures in 1956 with Athel. Was made up to 3rd Mate at age of 19
and passed 2nd.Mates Ticket aged 20. Passed Mates ticket at 22 - and I think the requirement for Masters was a further 2 years Sea-Time. In theory I could have taken my Masters at 24 (passed would be another matter !), but I seem to recall that there was a minimum age of 26 to be granted Masters Ticket. Can anyone confirm that last point 

Roger Harrison


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## John Briggs

I was issued with my Master's certificate in February 1965 and I was 25 years old.
I was appointed Master when I was 28 years of age.


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## garry Norton

It puzzles me how you can get your sea time for a foreign going vessel in some countries as they do not have any foreign going vessels of their own any more ie NZ. In many cases a Panamian or Liberian does the same thing as most of the world is F.O.C. registered.The last British type vessel I sailed on was over 20 years ago.


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## jmcg

oldseamerchant said:


> That's interesting as I certainly did not get anything extra for sailing certificate of rank which I did for the full time whilst holding a First Mate (FG).


You appear to have had a raw deal there OSM! 

What outfit treated you so badly?

Do let us know who you sailed with.

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## oldseamerchant

Post 19. In the fifties I needed 48 months actual sea time with no remissions of any description. 
Post 10s attachment illustrates clearly. 
Post 15 I seem to remember in my time up to Masters, fail any one part and you failed the lot. Must have been comforting to hang on (bank) writtens.


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## jmcg

oldseamerchant said:


> Post 19. In the fifties I needed 48 months actual sea time with no remissions of any description.
> Post 10s attachment illustrates clearly.
> Post 15 I seem to remember in my time up to Masters, fail any one part and you failed the lot. Must have been comforting to hang on (bank) writtens.


When you get a moment it would be helpful to us all if you could answer #23


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## Cisco

jmcg said:


> When you get a moment it would be helpful to us all if you could answer #23


Erm... I think you are getting your oldseamerchants confused with your oldmans........


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## Cisco

jimthehat said:


> on a recent cruise I asked the navigator(senior second mate)how was his orals for master especially the deviascope and he looked at me with big blank eyes and said"what is a deviascope?that certainly dated me.
> 
> jim


When they changed the syllabus in early 1971 they did away with the deviascope.... and in London at least gave you a binnacle on wheels to chase around the orals room taking bearings of a building down the street.... but I guess that is long gone as well...

Re extra seatime for sailing as mate with a mates ticket, counted as time and a half I think, I was given a credit for time done as mate in 1970 but he disallowed my time from 1971 which was as senior watchkeeper on a ship with a daywork c/o. He told me all the rules had changed...


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## jmcg

Cisco said:


> Erm... I think you are getting your oldseamerchants confused with your oldmans........


No confusion whatsoever Cisco - two different characters although they are as evasive as each other when "awkward" questions are asked.

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## Cisco

Oh...OK.....sorry... carry on....


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## Stephen J. Card

Roddy,

I'm trying to guess what pretty vessel Denholms gave you for first command? I hope at least that the cargo was dry and not liquid!

I will never forget my first call at Wilmington in EUROLINER back in Sept 1972. You sent me across to either the Booth vessel in a nearby berth....either DOMINIC or CRISPIN. I was to present myself to their Chief Officer and confess that I knew nothing about general cargo ships and to please let me look around! It took a couple of years but when I sailed down the Clyde in a brand new LOCH LOMOND I knew I had arrived in heaven!

Stephen

Re: the visit to the Booth vessel...
When I arrived on board I met a chap wearing go ashore rig... denims and a wild Hawaiian shirt. He showed me to the officer's bar and offered me a beer. he mad a call for the Chief Off to come to the bar to meet me. He finished his drink then said, "The Mate will be here shortly. I'm away ashore for me hole!" When the Mate arrived he said, "Where is the Old Man?"


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## jmcg

Sounds like my type of OM (Jester)(Jester). Great tale.

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## oldseamerchant

Cisco said:


> When t*hey changed the syllabus in early 1971 they did away with the deviascope*.... and in London at least gave you a binnacle on wheels to chase around the orals room taking bearings of a building down the street.... but I guess that is long gone as well...
> 
> Re extra seatime for sailing as mate with a mates ticket, counted as time and a half I think, I was given a credit for time done as mate in 1970 but he disallowed my time from 1971 which was as senior watchkeeper on a ship with a daywork c/o. He told me all the rules had changed...


Splitting 'B' was the real test!


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## John Cassels

jmcg said:


> No confusion whatsoever Cisco - two different characters although they are as evasive as each other when "awkward" questions are asked.
> 
> BW
> 
> J(Gleam)(Gleam)


Totally different - there's only one oldman80 , thank heaven.


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## randcmackenzie

'I'm trying to guess what pretty vessel Denholms gave you for first command? I hope at least that the cargo was dry and not liquid!'

Stephen, it was one of the semi precious jewels in the Burmah crown. She started life as a tanker and was converted to ore/oil.

She was all oil when I was there, and wasn't fit to switch.

She did, however, have a very good time charter rate to Petrobras, and we spent most of our time shuffling up and down the Brazilian coast.

Best Regards,

Roddie.


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## Fred Field

Wallace Slough said:


> "You have two starts left"
> Love it! That got more than a smile in response from this retired pilot sitting safely on the beach!


I believe the 'correct' quote should be, 'you have two starts or one toot of the whistle, take your pick'.

I only ever saw it done once, going up the Gironde to Bordeaux with a H&W double acting opposed piston job. That could get through starting air faster than any Engineer I have ever met, me included could get through beer. Half the time the beast hadn't even started when the telegraph went straight through stop to the other direction. The look of sheer delight on the J/E's face when I told him to call the bridge and tell them had have the 'proverbial' left was a sight for sore eyes! 
We were bluffing a bit, I think, there just might have been three left if we were lucky!


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## Wallace Slough

Fred:
This site has a way of resurrecting memories better than anything I know. I was piloting a US Flag bulker full of bulk rice out of Sacramento. I had backed the ship out of Berth #2 into the basin when the engine slowly died and the Captain told me that they'd lost all control air. I had the tug on the stem slack his line out and back full on the boat, then dropped both anchors under foot and got the ship stopped before we backed into the pier. The Chief was an old Norwegian who came to the bridge and said a start air valve had stuck open and dumped all the air, and it would take 45 minutes to pump the air back up. I asked him how long for just one start, and he said 15 minutes. I said OK, I'll get her pointed down the channel (we were running out of tide and had to get going), and then we'll ring slow ahead and be on our way and you can pump the air back up as we steam down the channel. The Chief called from the engine room and said they were ready, and I ordered slow ahead. The engine immediately went to half astern. I ordered stop engines, and the Captain told me they were on engine room control and he couldn't stop. I said for Christ's sake, don't you have an emergency stop on the consol, which he then hit and got the engine stopped. Suffice it to say that after anchors down, tugs backing, etc., we got the ship stopped. Then the Captain talked to the Chief on the telephone, and we pumped the air back up for a second try. The order was again given for slow ahead, and once again the ship went to half astern. Again anchors, etc. and we didn't hit anything. One last try (the third!) and the same scenario with a half astern bell from the engine room. Each attempt for slow ahead with the resultant astern bell had gotten us closer to the dock. I said that's it Captain, if she goes astern again, we'll hit the dock. He said I know what's wrong and took off for the engine room. He came back huffing and puffing from all the ladders and said OK, it'll be OK this time. I told him this was it, and he said no, it'll be OK. I ordered slow ahead, and low and behold, the engine went slow ahead and we steamed on down the channel. It turned out that the Chief was deaf, and when the Captain would call him on the telephone he'd reply yeah, yeah, yeah, not hearing a thing! He'd been starting the engine in the wrong direction the entire time until the Captain went down into the engine room where they could hear each other and explained what had happened. In the end, we didn't hit anything, and made a safe transit down the river!


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## Split

Roger Harrison said:


> I started Indentures in 1956 with Athel. Was made up to 3rd Mate at age of 19
> and passed 2nd.Mates Ticket aged 20. Passed Mates ticket at 22 - and I think the requirement for Masters was a further 2 years Sea-Time. In theory I could have taken my Masters at 24 (passed would be another matter !), but I seem to recall that there was a minimum age of 26 to be granted Masters Ticket. Can anyone confirm that last point
> 
> Roger Harrison


! obtained my Master's Certificate in Dec 1957, I was 25 and 8 months old. A lot depended in getting the sea time in just when the ship paid off. I was lucky in all of my exams that way and, with 2nd mate, I had to stay at school a month more because I had not reached my 20th birthday. My company, Caltex, was good that way and got us transferred to a homebound ship when possible.

In your point about age limits, I think that a blind eye was turned for a few weeks, or months as long as the sea time was in. In my case, it must have been, although I encountered a strict one for 2nd mate. Depends who looked at your details.


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## China hand

I remember being all fed up when they gave me my buff slip saying I had passed my 2nd Mates: it had a big red stamp across it "Not to be issued until 20th birthday". 
The penalty of doing your time in Bank Line, I suppose. No problem getting your sea time in.


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## Split

China hand said:


> I remember being all fed up when they gave me my buff slip saying I had passed my 2nd Mates: it had a big red stamp across it "Not to be issued until 20th birthday".
> The penalty of doing your time in Bank Line, I suppose. No problem getting your sea time in.


That is the first time that I have heard of that. Live and learn! It is, still, better than having to do an extra month at school, like I did.


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## randcmackenzie

Correct, those who had passed the exam were given such a slip, but were accepted by the DTI, or whoever it was then, to sail as second mate, and I think, ac***ulate sea time in that rank.

On one small ship I was on the Old Man had a real ticket, the Mate (myself) had a yellow slip saying I had passed Master's, and the Second Mate a yellow slip saying he had passed second mate's but wasn't old enough to be issued with the certificate.

The Chief had a Steam Chief's ticket with an endorsement, and the Second was a third with a dispensation.

Much head scratching by Shipping Masters - remember them?

Three ABs, a greaser and a cook, and off we went.

British flag and Denholm in 1970.


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## Ken Green

I had no idea that the issue of tickets was age related. Had never heard of it until this thread came up. I passed my second mate's in 1952 aged 22, Mate,s in 1955 and Masters in 1958.
I suppose you live and learn!
Cheers, Ken


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## oldseamerchant

Ken Green said:


> *I had no idea that the issue of tickets was age related. Had never heard of it until this thread came up*. I passed my second mate's in 1952 aged 22, Mate,s in 1955 and Masters in 1958.
> I suppose you live and learn!
> Cheers, Ken



That’s understandable Ken as you could not have gained the required sea time (coming off deck) at an age much younger than you actually did. Apprentices on the other hand would have earned remissions for all sorts (MARs etc) and gained the theoretical sea time at an earlier age and thus the BOT age provision under discussion addressed this anomaly.


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## China hand

Went to sea in 1960 aged 16. A year at King Teds gave me 6 months remission of sea time, so with my Bank Line apprenticeship I had enough time in. It was allowed to sit your ticket at 19 n a half, which I did. Passed, hence the stamp on the buff chit. Its a long time ago, as the song goes.(Sad)


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## randcmackenzie

oldseamerchant said:


> That’s understandable Ken as you could not have gained the required sea time (coming off deck) at an age much younger than you actually did. Apprentices on the other hand would have earned remissions for all sorts (MARs etc) and gained the theoretical sea time at an earlier age and thus the BOT age provision under discussion addressed this anomaly.


There wasn't really any difference whether you served your time on deck or as an apprentice - you needed 36 months sea time on deck.

Thus a 15 year old school leaver could get in his 36 months by the time he was 18 or 19.

In fact an apprentice might start a year later because eventually the companies wanted O levels.


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## slick

All,
Was the 'Buff Chit' was correctly called the Authority?, as it authorised persons to issue certificates

Yours aye,

slick


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## borderreiver

In the 60 you could not go to sea until you were 16 old. I had to wait after completing sea school.


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## Keith Adams

Just signed on again to this wonderful site ... still without a computer ... using local library ... hope to join the modern world later this year ... too much other stuff to do (ie) my wife's "Honey-do's" I have a copy of Board of Trade regs for the 1950's and will post extracts of the actual requirements for each Ticket ... has sample questions for each Ticket ... hard to believe what we had to know to pass, and yes, one had 3 months to pass all parts, Written's, Orals and Signals ... miss on any one and fail retakes by end of 90 days ... you lost the lot and had to start all over ! Sometimes ordered back to sea if did really poorly in Orals. Exam week ... three days of Written's and Thursday and/or Friday was Orals which could take just two minutes to an hour ... if one made it past 15 minutes one stood a chance and after 20 minutes were pretty safe, however, if any part of Written's appeared weak, they would grill you on it and still fail you after a half hour ... just think of how many questions can be asked in 20 minutes ! Signals was added to the end of Orals, if I recall, and Radar became a mandatory subject around 1960. Cheers to one and all, Keith aka "Snowy"


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## stan mayes

A big welcome back Keith - its been a long time..
Hoping you enjoyed your return for time at sea and we look
forward to hearing of it..
Best regards,
Stan


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## Andy Lavies

Regulations required four fifths of a 'normal' four year apprenticeship to be spent 'at sea.' Easy to do when leave entitlement was two weeks for each full year served. I ended up with more than four years at sea during my 'time' as I was too young for 2/m exams and as acting 3/O I was earning £27/10/00 a month so stayed for another round trip in the "Inchanga."
My sea time between 2/M and 1/M was one year and four days as 3/O. Had to do another 30 months as 2/O before Masters in 1967 aged 26.

Andy


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## lakercapt

I was always under the understanding that you could pass your masters but a certificate would not be issued until you had your 26 th birthday.


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## Tony Crompton

lakercapt said:


> I was always under the understanding that you could pass your masters but a certificate would not be issued until you had your 26 th birthday.


Mine was issued to me in London when I was 25 and 4 months ( 1965 )

Tony


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## Windsor

Ref "Two starts left", I recall answering the ER telephone sometime in the 60's whilst entering one of the locks on the Manchester Ship Canal and hearing a voice say,"Tell the pilot he can have one more start, or he can blow the whistle three times!"


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## Keith Adams

This is Keith Adams ... just spent 2 hours slow typing out the Ministry of Transport 1950 Regs. for Examination of Masters and Mates ... hit "Post Quick Reply " button and lost it all as requested I resign in on shipsnostalgia... I did try guys ... sorry for being a duffer ! Guess I took too long ... reason I hate computers ... had i written it I would still have it ... Library throwing me out ! Cheers to all , Keith aka "Snowy"


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