# Minimum understudy time in 1950



## Troppo2 (Jun 25, 2018)

Hello all

A question has arisen on another forum re the minimum sea service requirement before R/O's were allowed to take a ship by themselves.

I understand it was 6 months on UK flag ships.

My question is - did this apply in 1950?

Thanks.


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

I think it did, Troppo. At the end of WW2 the powers that be were getting rid of the thousands with special tickets. Those with 2nd and 1st would already have had sea time. But new ROs were required, and as such would need 6 mths sea time. Certainly by 1952.
I shall stand corrected, if I'm wrong, by our older RO members.


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## R309321 (Dec 29, 2013)

Hello Troppo. The previous reply was correct. 6 months with a 2nd or 1st class ticket sea experience straight from college. Peter


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## djringjr (Feb 11, 2008)

How about during 1940s which was during WWII. Mention had been made of "special tickets" (licenses).

In USA, there is an article online about Gallops Island Radio School and how the newly instructed were able to obtain a full T2 license then be assigned to a ship.

So I believe during WWII there was an exemption for the "Six Months Sea Service" to sail as sole operator.

USA had always had this provision on ships that sailed exclusively inland, on rivers, and on Great Lakes, but that time on rivers and lakes counted toward a 6 month's sea service endorsement.

This is concerning a R/O who was born in 1920 (he has passed away 20 years ago), and he makes a claim that he transferred from 3rd operator on a passenger ship to sole operator on a cargo ship for a man who had been begging for relief as he had been on that ship for more than a year.

Would this have been possible during a shortage of R/O's say during WWII?

73
DR


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## MikeGDH (May 10, 2014)

djringjr said:


> How about during 1940s which was during WWII. Mention had been made of "special tickets" (licenses).
> 
> In USA, there is an article online about Gallops Island Radio School and how the newly instructed were able to obtain a full T2 license then be assigned to a ship.
> 
> ...


I started as Trainee R/O with Marconi in Feb of 1954 & did four and half months as such on 'Athellaird'. With less than 6 months service, I then got sent to GSN's 'Albatross' & finished off my 6 months there ON MY OWN. Guess there was some sort of dispensation, although 'Albatross' was on FG Articles.
I may be wrong, but I think that Special tickets were acceptable on trawlers? Maybe someone who served on trawlers could deny or confirm if this was the case?
HNY to All!
Mike.


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## Troppo2 (Jun 25, 2018)

OK.

The situation is this.

It is 1950.

The R/O in question has done 6 weeks as 3rd on a pax ship. That's his total sea going experience. He worked for Marconi. 

He claims that he transferred to a cargo ship as the only R/O with the approval of the local Marconi depot manager, and the R/O off the cargo ship took his place as 3rd on the pax ship. 

6 weeks sea service is all he had.

Is this possible?


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## aussiesparks (Nov 11, 2009)

Just checked my brothers discharge book he was on the MV Tabor as 2nd R/O for one trip of approx. three and a half months in 1956 before becoming 1st R/O on the Loch Morar (he could not have been very happy with that trip as after that he transferred to Blue Funnel.) In that period they were very short of R/Os and would get them out by themselves as soon as possible.
I did not have that much luck, my first trip lasted 9 months on the Baron Kinnaird in 1960, very little work and not much experience and if you have sailed on Baron ships you would know at the end of it we were all glad to see Liverpool again and the back of the ship.


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## holland25 (Nov 21, 2007)

Perhaps not exactly the same but I joined my 1st ship on Mar 1st 1956 as 3rd R/O. I signed on my next ship on my own on the 17th of July 1956. A month and a half short of the 6 months. There was a shortage of R/Os in 1956 and I suppose if nobody complained the mandatory 6 months was overlooked. I suppose 1950 would have been no different.


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

I think this is quite possible. He would have done junior on the pax boat, for experience, then put onto a rock dodger, where the 6mnths not required.
Personally, I did 3 mnths as junior on a round voyage, then was sent as 2nd on a pax boat.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

#5 . "...I may be wrong, but I think that Special tickets were acceptable on trawlers? Maybe someone who served on trawlers could deny or confirm if this was the case?"

I believe that during the war, Special tickets were what most of the ROs had because of the need to get them away quickly. Also I think the ships had two ROs, is that right?

Presumably Special tickets were banned from cargo ships after the war. I don't know when it started but by the '60s, you could only use a Special on ships not compulsorily fitted with W/T, i.e trawlers and tugs.

Because trawlers weren't compulsorily fitted with W/T, even though they did carry it, sea time on trawlers didn't count towards the 6 months required on cargo ships, etc.

John T


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## Troppo2 (Jun 25, 2018)

duncs said:


> I think this is quite possible. He would have done junior on the pax boat, for experience, then put onto a rock dodger, where the 6mnths not required.
> Personally, I did 3 mnths as junior on a round voyage, then was sent as 2nd on a pax boat.



Yes, but 6 weeks seems awfully short...


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

I believe that during the war cargo ships carried 3/RO,s so that continuous watch could be kept for obvious reasons. Around 1947 I believe that those with special tickets had to upgrade to PMG 2 or leave. Specials were still accepted on non compulsory ships under 1601 tons? which allowed trawlers etc to carry an R/O if they wished


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Why the shortage of R/O's in the 1950s? There were THOUSANDS of females capable operators during the war. Not just as 'key operators', they could have quickly gained the full knowledge of the job. Lost opportunity.


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

The majority of ships which survived the war were either Liberty or prewar bangers. No facilities for women and there happens to be a lot more to being an R/O than banging a morse key so they would as a minimum have to study for a PMG 2 the same as the men, can,t really see that happening in any great number can you?


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## Vic Heaney (Nov 2, 2009)

*If 6 weeks was short, try 29 days*



Troppo2 said:


> Yes, but 6 weeks seems awfully short...


My first and only voyage as understudy (to the great John Reid) was only 29 days, much of that not at sea.

I signed on the Manchester Spinner on 2nd March, 1957, voyaged to Halifax, Nova Scotia and St John, New Brunswick and Albany, New York State. I was released from the ship at Ellesmere Port on 31st March.

A few days later I was signed on as sole R/O to the MV Kildale, which took two months to go to the states and back because it kept breaking down, both in port and at sea.

I was not yet 17 years of age.


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## Gordon L Smeaton (Dec 28, 2006)

Mid 60's with BP did my probationary trip on British Hussar, after two months and twenty three days was given dispensation to sail as R/O, was never given any reason why. Was just turned 17 and green as the grass, but survived. Stayed at sea till retirement.


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## sparkie2182 (May 12, 2007)

First time I ever heard of anyone putting in to Albany NY State.
Interesting.

Also..... 

How many years served at sea, Gordon.?


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## Gordon L Smeaton (Dec 28, 2006)

Joined BP Nov 66 stayed with them till 2006 then went contracting leaving my final vessel in 2012 so a total of 46 years, from 86 on wards was always on DP boats, dive ,construction, DP FPSO, pipelayer ,DP shuttle tankers.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

sparkie2182 said:


> First time I ever heard of anyone putting in to Albany NY State.
> Interesting.
> 
> Also.....
> ...


My first trip 'on my own' complete with dispensation as only 4.x months on Texaco Denmark. Fyffes' Tilapa. Albany (capital of NY state) was an early call.


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## Basil (Feb 4, 2006)

Varley, can't recollect if mentioned previously but when were you on Tilapa?
I was 4/E 8/8/63 - 26/11/63


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

gordonarfur said:


> The majority of ships which survived the war were either Liberty or prewar bangers. No facilities for women and there happens to be a lot more to being an R/O than banging a morse key so they would as a minimum have to study for a PMG 2 the same as the men, can,t really see that happening in any great number can you?



Hmmm. Agree. Facilities were not that great, but even ships like Denholm's ore boats seemed to be fine for Dallas Bradshaw.

Study for PMG the same as men? Victoria Drummond went to become Chief Engineer. I can't see that should be a problem. More like going to sea was a 'man's job'.


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

I think Denholms were favourite for appointing Junior RO's. I Joined the Naess Sovereign/GHFJ 4th April 1963 (the Chief RO wanted to do a Tax year), paid off 2nd December 1963 and flew home on a Comet 4B from Bahrain.

I think many will have served their 6 months on the Sovereign

David

+


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Hmmm. Agree. Facilities were not that great, but even ships like Denholm's ore boats seemed to be fine for Dallas Bradshaw.
> 
> Study for PMG the same as men? Victoria Drummond went to become Chief Engineer. I can't see that should be a problem. More like going to sea was a 'man's job'.


Do i smell a whiff of PC in your reply? so a woman gets a chiefs ticket when? not just after WW2 I bet and can you see lots of nubile young women suddenly deciding to have a marine R/O career after WW2? not likely , all they wanted to do was get back into civvy street and or get spliced.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

LOL! Get spliced seems to be the norm on any ship at any time... even now! See passenger ships seems to be full of crew or officers or staff married. I suspect that "marriages performed on board this vessel are good for the duration of the voyage only" ! 

I saw a topic thread on SN going back about 14 years. I guess it was not as rare I thought. 

PC? Nah. I sailed with a couple of female R/O's in the 70s.


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Hmmm. Agree. Facilities were not that great, but even ships like Denholm's ore boats seemed to be fine for Dallas Bradshaw.


Yes, but Dallas got newer ships with en suite toilet/shower etc. A lot of MIMCO ROs, me included, complained. We were relegated to the sh1t heaps!


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Did the R/O have a shower and WC on SCOTSPARK & GLENPARK? If I recall there was a female R/O on GLENPARK. I recall that 2nd Mate, 3rd Mate shared the shower and WC and probably the R/O as well?


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

I don't know about that, Stephen, but, certainly ROs were muttering about MIMCO giving Dallas the best jobs. All ROs at the time, wanted the newer ships, with better gear, but most were stuck on the older ones.


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## Vic Heaney (Nov 2, 2009)

sparkie2182 said:


> First time I ever heard of anyone putting in to Albany NY State.
> Interesting.
> 
> Also.....
> ...



Loaded a cargo of grain, I seem to recall.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

duncs said:


> I don't know about that, Stephen, but, certainly ROs were muttering about MIMCO giving Dallas the best jobs. All ROs at the time, wanted the newer ships, with better gear, but most were stuck on the older ones.



Mind, there were only two or three female R/Os in the Denholm fleet so three 'good' ships getting females would still leave the majority on the 'bad boy's ships'.


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Mind, there were only two or three female R/Os in the Denholm fleet so three 'good' ships getting females would still leave the majority on the 'bad boy's ships'.


I'm still chasing my tail, regarding the above. OK, there was no equality then, only exclusivity.


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

More likely there was an R/O was required to fill a post on vessel s.s. XXXX... that R/O went the ship. 40 + ships..... at least 3 R/O's would be required for that year..... 120 + slots. 3 female R/Os. That was probably nothing but normal planning. At least of the two or three were Juniors anyway.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Stephen J. Card said:


> Hmmm. Agree. Facilities were not that great, but even ships like Denholm's ore boats seemed to be fine for Dallas Bradshaw.
> 
> Study for PMG the same as men? Victoria Drummond went to become Chief Engineer. I can't see that should be a problem. More like going to sea was a 'man's job'.


BHP Australia was reluctantly dragged into the 20th Century and forced to employ female cadets. A company bigwig was came aboard one of the company's ships in Newcastle and the Old Man asked him how they were selecting the girls. "Easy," he replied, "we just pick the ones with the biggest t1ts."

John T


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

trotterdotpom said:


> BHP Australia was reluctantly dragged into the 20th Century and forced to employ female cadets. A company bigwig was came aboard one of the company's ships in Newcastle and the Old Man asked him how they were selecting the girls. "Easy," he replied, "we just pick the ones with the biggest t1ts."
> 
> John T



LOL.

The Old Man saw the female cadet out on the bridge wing taking sights, "Nelson would turn in his grave if he saw this."


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

OK, Stephen, I'll go along with what you say. I suppose its called 'the luck of the draw'.


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## IAN M (Jan 17, 2009)

Extracted from by book, OUTWARD BOUND.

Now that the war was over, the Special Certificate, which I and thousands of others held, was no longer to be a qualification for service on ships large enough to come under the Merchant Shipping (Wireless Telegraphy) Act 1919 and the Merchant Shipping (Safety and Load Line Conventions) Act, 1932. In order to give all ships time to return to the UK, the Special Certificate remained valid on vessels within the scope of these Acts, virtually all the ships of the Merchant Service, until 31 December, 1946, but, henceforth, it was a qualification to serve only on trawlers and other small vessels.


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## majoco (Oct 15, 2008)

Hey, David Hopcroft - I did a couple of trips on GHFJ - the first time I had a junior and what a useless so-and-so he turned out to be. Can't remember his name, but he was actually older than I was with more sea time and a few more beers under his belt. Great ship, great accommodation and food. I left to go shoreside and work for the CAA then emigrated to NZ in 1974.
I've put on a bit of weight since then....


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## david.hopcroft (Jun 29, 2005)

Hello Martin.

As I said before, my Chief RO wanted to do a tax year, so we joined in dry dock in Rotterdam before the rest of the crew. It was worth it as AEI engineers were fitting the T50MH, so learned all about it. No names, but my chief was prone to 'odd' behaviour, and at one time disappeared for three days. Quite literally. Turned up in an engineers cabin.

But a good ship, which taught me a lot. The cadets cautioned me about breakfast cereal in the first few days - let the weevils swim up to the surface first !!

The name boards were the 3rd Mates pride and joy. He had them down and set to work sanding and polishing to a beautiful wood grain finish with gold lettering.

David
+


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## 7woodlane (Apr 20, 2009)

Troppo2 said:


> Hello all
> 
> A question has arisen on another forum re the minimum sea service requirement before R/O's were allowed to take a ship by themselves.
> 
> ...


The 6 months minimum requirement in the 1950s . Yep, you are correct. That was so.
David Whitehead.


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## pippin (May 13, 2008)

I went to sea in October 1965 as 2nd R/O on CITY OF PORT ELIZABETH/GPLC. Cargo plus <112 passengers so theoretically H8 but I had to do the H16 from 2000Z-2200Z then 0000Z-0600Z.
Marconi Marine couldn't have been that short of R/Os because I did 8 months as junior.

Interestingly my PMG (1st Class + BOT radar of course!) Qualifying Service dates were all entered at the same time 28/4/68 by the same Radio Surveyor even though 6 months was 20/04/66, 12 months was 12/12/1966 and 24 months was 12/12/67.
It suggests to me that my PMG was not checked for nearly three years.

Perhaps ship-owners took a chance that Radio Surveyors didn't always inspect sea-time in PMGs!!


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Vic Heaney said:


> Loaded a cargo of grain, I seem to recall.


Hi Vic just seen your post, answer 5 years with 3 different companies.


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## gordonarfur (May 27, 2018)

Hi Vic I have just seen your post, answer 5 years with 3 different companies would have stayed forever if the opportunity to transfer to navigation had been available.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I don't think it was necessary to have your certificate signed after the 6 months (mine, E.A. Jardine) if you had other proof of your seatime as R/O. I did not have my 1 year done until well after, working out of the East Ham depot assisting PO Surveyor Harry Gilder on survey and never bothered with 2.

(Perhaps it was a requirement for 'in charge' on passenger vessels but then, I was not Pazzy wagon material!)


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