# Ol' Man's Grump !



## ChasD (Mar 27, 2008)

Just watched the BBC ‘Last Night of the Proms’ (courtesy of some satellite technology!) Something I try to do every year and thoroughly enjoy. But there is one thing I seem to find increasingly saddening every year.
In the midst of all of the nationalistic flag waving (Now’t wrong wi’ that!) there is one flag that seems to have declined steadily until now it has seemingly disappeared completely – and that is the ol’ Red Duster.
There was the Chinese National Flag, the Aussie Flag, every flag imaginable being waved enthusiastically – but the Red Ensign? Of that – not a sign ! 
Perhaps I’m just one of the ol’ dinosaurs, gone down with everything else, but it does sadden me !
Like to take a bet on November 11th ?

Regards .... Chas


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## ben27 (Dec 27, 2012)

good day chasD,today o8:15.rel' man's grump!.i agree with you re:the red duster.and thanks for posting,a reminder to the forgotten hero's of ww2.regards ben27


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

I've just posted similar on another thread. Maybe we should provide red dusters to the unbuntinged concertgoer in next years queues - as part of collecting for a maritime charity?

That or ban any land lubber from joining in RULE BRITANNIA.

(And why can't we have the real second verse of the National Anthem?)


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## Alex Salmond (Mar 7, 2011)

Hard to get a hold of now is the old Red Duster I looked around ebay and stuff for one without much luck for our Blue Star Crew reunion last year in Lyttleton ,we wanted an old one that had seen some service but no luck ,turned out one of my mates had one that was ummmmm salvaged from the Wellington Star on its last trip ... as for seeing one at the Proms im not sure I would like to see some Hooray Henry waving one around completely clueless about the history behind it bouncing up and down to the William Tell Overture .I d hate that .For me its only special to us guys who sailed under it and is now just part of Maritime history lets leave it there


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## borderreiver (Oct 11, 2008)

There was one.Near the front right hand side.


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## john shaw (Jun 23, 2006)

I think there was also only one white ensign, and I saw no blue ensigns at all. Despite them all supposedly singing along to maritime glory choruses.

There is - annoys me to hell- also a tendency to "reinterpret" the Union Flag. There was one on a pink ground in the crowd, the soprano had a reinterpreted version by Vivienne Westwood, and I've even seen green versions used in interior designs. Sacrilege.

And last moan- it's Britannia RULE the waves, for God's sake- an exhortation- not "rules" !!!


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## gordy (Apr 18, 2008)

All through the programme we got cut always to N. Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and Hyde Park, but not during the national anthem apart from Hyde Park and N. Ireland.
BBC fearties or political conspiracy?


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## R396040 (Sep 30, 2008)

Alex Salmond said:


> Hard to get a hold of now is the old Red Duster I looked around ebay and stuff for one without much luck for our Blue Star Crew reunion last year in Lyttleton ,we wanted an old one that had seen some service but no luck ,turned out one of my mates had one that was ummmmm salvaged from the Wellington Star on its last trip ... as for seeing one at the Proms im not sure I would like to see some Hooray Henry waving one around completely clueless about the history behind it bouncing up and down to the William Tell Overture .I d hate that .For me its only special to us guys who sailed under it and is now just part of Maritime history lets leave it there


Hi Alex.
Like your mates Red Duster mine was obtained same way."liberated" from Cunard cargo boat Asia when she was sold to China way back in the 1960s. I still fly it every year on Remembrance Sunday and this year on MN Day Sept 3rd here in the Charente in France. Agree with you in regards your last sentance too,
Stuart Henderson


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## R396040 (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi John Shaw, MESSAGE NO.6
Just read up your profile/ Are we perhaps neighbours ? I also live in Charente and live in Chassenon now and enjoy it.


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## john shaw (Jun 23, 2006)

Hello ,it seems so! I have sent you a PM. Regards,John


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## Dickyboy (May 18, 2009)

Afraid to say that today the old Red Duster isn't relevant to todays society. Though the music is classical, the event is very much up to date, reflecting what people know about today, besides most flags are national flags and not ensigns.
I'm sure that there will be plenty of other groups who were disappointed that their particular flag wasn't shown. 
Perhaps if a member, or ex member of the MN had actually been there it would have been shown. Can't blame others for not flying our flag I guess.


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## Satanic Mechanic (Feb 23, 2009)

Buy Ticket

Buy Flag

Wave flag

problem solved


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## ChasD (Mar 27, 2008)

Dickyboy ... Quote ..... ‘Perhaps if a member, or ex member of the MN had actually been there it would have been shown. Can't blame others for not flying our flag I guess.’..... unquote

This really is the crux of the matter. The steady decline in ‘flag visibility’ is indicative of the decline in the industry, in the number of people associated with that industry, even in the number of people who have, or in the past had, family associated with the industry. It’s not just the flags that are gone, but everything tied in with that – and therein lies the core of an Ol’ Duffer’s maudlin nostalgia; but there is a degree of entertainment and comfort in being able to grump about it !

Borderreiver ! I thought I glimpsed that one, just once, but thought perhaps it may have been a touch of self delusion ... but thanks for the confirmation ! Perhaps all is not yet lost !

Best to all ! ..... Chas.


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## Alex Salmond (Mar 7, 2011)

Satanic Mechanic said:


> Buy Ticket
> 
> Buy Flag
> 
> ...


Tchhh now why didn't I think of that ??(Whaaa) life is so simple on Planet Satanic (Smoke)


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## Satanic Mechanic (Feb 23, 2009)

Alex Salmond said:


> Tchhh now why didn't I think of that ??(Whaaa) life is so simple on Planet Satanic (Smoke)


'Tis just a knack I have for problem solving(K)


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## Dickyboy (May 18, 2009)

There has just been a shipment of Red Ensigns shipped in from China on a Liberian registered container ship.(Jester)


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## derekhore (Sep 21, 2007)

R396040 said:


> I still fly it every year on Remembrance Sunday and this year on MN Day Sept 3rd here in the Charente in France.


Ditto - I fly mine here in the village for every occasion that I can - sometimes on its own and sometimes with the Devon flag for company!


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## tom roberts (May 4, 2008)

I have a duster which I flew on my narrow boat every time we were out ,once on the river Thames I was told not to fly it ,for some reason I don't know why you couldn't fly the union jack neither,other naitions visiting the Thames flew their countries flags no bother. On the occasion of finding a niche in the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool which was long overdue the Port Padre commented that there were more Red Dusters flown at the rostrum of the Labour party conference that year than there were on British ships on the ocean,I always thought it a sad reflection on this island nation.My Red Duster will be on my box when I shuffle of this world but it must be removed before they close the curtain,its far to precious to go to where I most likely will end up.


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## joebuckham (Apr 1, 2005)

tom I can't find any regs in the pla handbook concerning the flying of the red ensign on small craft while in the port limits, up or down stream. I have spent many hours walking by the thames and have holidayed afloat on the upper reaches, and have observed the red duster being flown on many a small craft. I have also seen the north-british and the winged red setter flags being flown on several boats(Night)


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## Dickyboy (May 18, 2009)

Might depend if it was flown as an ensign, for it's proper use. Or appeared to be used as a display, or other manner for which it was not deemed fit to use it in Perhaps?


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## tom roberts (May 4, 2008)

joebuckham said:


> tom I can't find any regs in the pla handbook concerning the flying of the red ensign on small craft while in the port limits, up or down stream. I have spent many hours walking by the thames and have holidayed afloat on the upper reaches, and have observed the red duster being flown on many a small craft. I have also seen the north-british and the winged red setter flags being flown on several boats(Night)


We always flew the Red duster on my stern and disregarded the instruction not to do so,my wife was adamant on this and I was more feared of her than any authority.As regards the ruling I think we were informed either by the then B.W.B. or the lock keepers at Dukes Cut on the Thames side .When we were on the Severn going down river to Sharpness I lowered the flag to a small fleet of Naval launches that the navy used for the universities,one of which my son in law was second in command true to tradition they returned the courtesy,my son in law told me later it was the first time they had seen it done by an old canal boat and it caused one hell of a rush to send some one aft to lower there ensign.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

tom roberts said:


> I have a duster which I flew on my narrow boat every time we were out ,once on the river Thames I was told not to fly it ,for some reason I don't know why you couldn't fly the union jack neither,other naitions visiting the Thames flew their countries flags no bother. On the occasion of finding a niche in the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool which was long overdue the Port Padre commented that there were more Red Dusters flown at the rostrum of the Labour party conference that year than there were on British ships on the ocean,I always thought it a sad reflection on this island nation.My Red Duster will be on my box when I shuffle of this world but it must be removed before they close the curtain,its far to precious to go to where I most likely will end up.


The Manual that they still use I believe is called the "Manual of Yacht Flag Etiquette" which is taken from the HM Fleet "Manual of Flag Etiquette", an Ensign is not flown but worn by a vessel, however, if they are special flags/prize flags they are flown.
The Red Ensign goes back as long ago as 1707 and was known as the "Red Ensign of His Majesty's Fleet" and was set apart as the particular flag of British Merchant Vessels. Under the "Merchant Shipping Act" yachts and such vessels are classed as merchantmen if not used for profit, however, if a vessel is unregistered she is a known as a unrecognized British vessel and does not wear the Red Ensign.
In regards to the Union Flag this flag is for the sole use of HM ships and should never be worn/ flown by a Merchant Vessel (under the Act) in any cir***stances.
A Registered British fishing vessel does not have to wear a Red Ensign when entering/leaving a foreign port unless ordered to do so by an Officer of the RN who is on full pay.


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## ChasD (Mar 27, 2008)

Quote ..... Tom Roberts ..... ‘I have a duster which I flew on my narrow boat every time we were out ‘ ..... Unquote ...

Excellent Tom ! We, most certainly, always wore the ensign on any river transit and were never questioned, though I’d venture to suggest any objection would have been considered an act of war !


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## China hand (Sep 11, 2008)

Explain to the Ukranian AB that the Bangla Deshi 3rd Mate didn't really mean to wash it when the Serbian Mate relayed the message from the Korean Master to dip the ensign to a passing warship. He had to run 120metres, and as it was hidden under 8 stacks of boxes, the fact that it was upside down and very dirty didn't seem relevant. Ho Hum.


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## chadburn (Jun 2, 2008)

Going back to the Flag or lack of Flag at the last night of the Proms, the Union Flag is according to the House of Lords 1908 the flag of the British People and it is considered to be a breach of "custom and good taste" upon which much of flag proceedure is based to fly any of the special ensigns (Red, White and Blue) which are specially appropriated to sea use. There is an exception in regards to Yacht Club Houses as long as the building is on the coast (Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty 1931).
In regards to the Union Flag being flown "reversed" and being regarded as a signal of distress this is entirely without official recognition internationally for the simple reason that ensigns of several countries like France cannot be "reversed"


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