# Are engineers born, and not made?



## Mariner44

www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo

(Jester)(Jester)(Jester)


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## Mad Landsman

There I was sat on a trolley at Bournemouth Hospital A & E - fully 'wired' and 'plumbed' - ECG, Oximeter, oxygen - you know, all that kit... 

I was looking at the monitor thinking 'That looks wrong'. So I traced all the wires until I found the duff connection and held it in place until the readings looked good. 
I told the nurse that she needed to swap out the wire set for a good one and all I got was a sigh and raised eyebrows. 

It's a reaction you get used to.


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## Dartskipper

Memories of looking after Dad there M.L. Took him into A & E, and he was wired up for the ECG. That machine didn't work, dead battery. Wheeled in another one later and got a reading. Dad's pulse always had a beat missing for as long as he was alive, i.e. every 6th or 7th beat, it skipped one. The nurse tutted and took off the wires, muttering "Something wrong with this one, too."
She never returned.
Dad got admitted later that night anyway.

Roy.


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## Steve Hodges

Great video! Dilbert is a masterpiece...

I think I trace my engineering roots back to a Meccano No. 3 set bought for me at age of about 10. There was still hope for me then, but my uncle visited from Canada and bought me the Meccano Engineers set to go with it, full of gear wheels, worms, crown wheels, etc. I can remember building from the instruction book an intermittent motion mechanism - I was so fascinated by it I took it to school to show the other kids. They just looked at it, and looked at me, then walked away with puzzled expressions. After that I started taking old locks to pieces and re-assembling them, then it was all downhill thereafter......

Like most engineers, I am baffled that people can climb into potentially lethal machines that could easily kill or maim them and they don't even understand how they work!!!


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## Mad Landsman

Ahh Meccano! The old Meccano was a great learning tool - Sold as a 'toy'. 

I had Meccano (set unknown) from a very early age, supplemented with something similar called Trix and the wonderful set of gear wheels. Later had a No5 set - Great! 
By the time I went to Grammar school I had sussed out gear ratios and motors and all manner of such things - (Pity I never made proper use of it in my working life). It used to surprise me that other boys with the same level of intelligence had not a clue about engineering and cared less. Those of us that did tended to find others, much the same as those with other interests. 
It did tend to throw the Physics teachers when I was able to describe various 'mysteries' before I had been taught them properly. 

Yes, real metal parts with actual nuts and bolts, Whitworth wasn't it? 

Nowadays one can get 'kits' to make one thing, maybe a couple of things - Not at all like the variety available back then when even spare parts were sold in the toy shops. 

Lego seems to be the current thing - click it together, pull it apart - where's the skill in that?


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## Dartskipper

The famous old store in Holborn, Gamages, used to have a fantastic display in their toy department at Christmas. How long it took them, or how many staff were involved to make the huge travelling cranes, locomotives, lorries and other machines, they never said. Sold lots of Meccano sets though, including one to my Nan. It mysteriously appeared again on Christmas morning. I think Dad had most fun showing me how it all went together.

Roy.


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## Graham Wallace

I had that Dilbert cartoon for about 10 years always wondering how I could show it off

Tried showing it to my three daughters and a couple of Grandkids.....all ipods and electronics, cell phones and texting and not interested. having an uninterruped conversation is getting harder!

Somewhere I have the video of a daughter who gives her active but elderly non savvy computer father an ipad and has a follow up visit to see how he is enjoying it. She is prattling on while he is cutting up vegetables using it as a cutting board and suddenly realises. Her final shock is when he rinses it under the tap and puts it in the dishwasher!

Gotta luv 'em, my laptop is my limit.

Graham


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## Varley

Steve Hodges said:


> Great video! Dilbert is a masterpiece...
> 
> I think I trace my engineering roots back to a Meccano No. 3 set bought for me at age of about 10. There was still hope for me then, but my uncle visited from Canada and bought me the Meccano Engineers set to go with it, full of gear wheels, worms, crown wheels, etc. I can remember building from the instruction book an intermittent motion mechanism - I was so fascinated by it I took it to school to show the other kids. They just looked at it, and looked at me, then walked away with puzzled expressions. After that I started taking old locks to pieces and re-assembling them, then it was all downhill thereafter......
> 
> Like most engineers, I am baffled that people can climb into potentially lethal machines that could easily kill or maim them and they don't even understand how they work!!!


The Engineer is only responsible for the kit he has designed.

It is the technician that has to keep the engineers' "Magna opera" singing, however well or badly they are designed.

Any damn fool, can fix something he put together himself. A broader skill is needed to tend to it normally.


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## Graham Wallace

Varley said:


> The Engineer is only responsible for the kit he has designed.
> 
> It is the technician that has to keep the engineers' "Magna opera" singing, however well or badly they are designed.
> 
> Any damn fool, can fix something he put together himself. A broader skill is needed to tend to it normally.


Varley,
It seems we disagree on the title "Engineer" and "kit"?

Graham


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## Varley

Graham, Perhaps we do but I am proud to be a technician - knowing (or used to) quite a a bit about many things rather than a very great bit about a strictly limited speciality. Once the ship is at sea it is we who are required (call us whatever you like - I am also proud to be be part of the IMarEST). The designer's job is done after a few months in the builders drawing office. Between them they can produce a monster - every scantling, material specification, creapage distance and temperature rise to rule but a devil to look after (but sometimes something not so bad). We, on the other hand, have it for the rest of its 'life' and must make it run safely, profitably and without regard to demarcation 9or not too much anyway).

Unfortunately they think they will be able to do without us by the introduction of the unmanned vessel. I fear the great deal they each know in their own discrete spheres will not be enough!

At a Glasgow lecture by learned Wartsila men - extolling silicon kit bolted onto their marine engines (an aside - did you know that Caterpillar designs used bolted on controls that used the fuel flow to cool the electronics adequately? - light oil only, obviously). I tried to draw a parallel with the automation then being applied to the 'Amoco Cadiz' IMO steering gear.

The answer was "I'm sorry we don't know about steering gear". Innocent enough in the rarified airs of designing oil burning equipment perhaps but hardly a rounded approach to building ships.


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## Graham Wallace

Varley,

There is nothing unworthy about being a Technician, but not all Engineers are limited to what they can do.

Engineers can be Technicians but Technicians cannot be Engineers.

Congratulations on getting ImarEst further than I went, years ago(1955) I was a Probationary Student Institute of Marine Engineers, then Graduate and I left the Marine world. Then went back to Mechanical Engineering, M I Mech E and C Eng, still prefer a hands on approach. 

Actually I obtained a Ham radio licence in 1984, later grandfathered up to the top, completely out of my depth. The most interesting side was radio theory.

Graham


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## Varley

Graham,

You must think of the area under the curve. We can all (within reason and according to effort) achieve the same area of learning/experience/knowledge , whatever you like to call it. It is the shape of the curve that is a useful discriminator. High peak and narrow base = Engineer. Reasonable peak and wide base Technician. I think 'Status' should be graded by the area but I am not worried status simply the relaxing of terminology so that Engineer becomes meaningless without further qualification. 

The grindstones to which the two nose types and put are different and it would be a very inefficient world if that were not so.


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## Scelerat

Steve Hodges said:


> Like most engineers, I am baffled that people can climb into potentially lethal machines that could easily kill or maim them and they don't even understand how they work!!!


But why would they need to? As long as my car runs I don't need to know how or why.


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## Graham Wallace

Varley said:


> Graham,
> 
> You must think of the area under the curve. We can all (within reason and according to effort) achieve the same area of learning/experience/knowledge , whatever you like to call it. It is the shape of the curve that is a useful discriminator. High peak and narrow base = Engineer. Reasonable peak and wide base Technician.???? I think 'Status' should be graded by the area but I am not worried status simply the relaxing of terminology so that Engineer becomes meaningless without further qualification.
> 
> The grindstones to which the two nose types and put are different and it would be a very inefficient world if that were not so.


Varley,

In UK there seems to be no limit as to who is an 'Engineer', all and sundry give themselves the title, very frustrating for those who obtained appropriate technical qualifications, C Eng etc.

In Canada one is not allowed to use the title "Engineer' in any form unless one is a licenced member of a Provincial Association of Professional Engineers, *that is the law*! My particular licence is for Ontario, I practised there and retired in 1994. I now live in BC, retain 'retired' status in Ontario and have no intention of working again in the profession, nor have for last 21 years.

But I'm still an Engineer and always will be, but my training was ground floor up, I completed an Apprenticeship.

Curves,peaks,bases, discriminators ?? "We can all learn" etc but unless you actually do, it does not count, which ever way you cut it!

Graham


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## Varley

I was not talking of apprenticeships as they used to be styled and I am surprised you were young enough to embark on a degree course after completing it. 

Monkey see monkey do does not produce technicians unless one is very careful indeed of the capability of the seen monkey. Book learning AND experience is an ideal but given the choice to opt for one only I would choose the book. The engineer needs to read to the end of a long book. The technician needs to read the early chapters of several different books.

Engineer. The electricals were the last to adhere to the principle that the engineer was the degree man and designed. We now have Washing Machine engineers, television engineers, telephone engineers etc. - many only trained and not educated, often machine specific.

As I said (I hope) hang the status attached but use a term that describes the ability(ies) of the title holder. I would no more want an engineer fault finding than I would want a technician to design.

I fear your third paragraph may breach the management boundary - that strange border which affects some of those admitted immigrant forget the demands of physics. Whether engineer or technician there is only one certain thing. However esteemed those estates - they will come to an end. The discipline can be for always. Its servants cannot.


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## Steve Hodges

Scelerat said:


> As long as my car runs I don't need to know how or why.


You're right. You don't need to know. Most people don't need to know. But I do!


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## Graham Wallace

Varley,

I'm not a degree man. I walked away from BP and the sea aged 23 with a MOT Second class Steam Certificate. I obtained daytime employment and went back to 2 years of nightschool for HNC Mech Eng'g ( three nights per week). Then 2 further years of nightschool taking HNC endosements which all qualified me for AM I Mech E. It was a very hard grind.

Later due to age and experience I attained MI Mech E and then the coveted C. Eng around age 32.

Some UK Technical Colleges in the 1960's became Colleges of Technology and some persons who attended them were grandfathered up to degree status , my Brother in law was an example, I was not!

At 28 years of age, I did not need/nor could I stand further academia, got on with my life in a new country with all the challenges it presented and supported my new family. I was a practical Engineer with the necessary technical qualifications to sustain me for the rest of my working career.

Unless you count some of the almost moronic courses that HR personnel somehow hoodwinked management into believing were essential for the fully rounded 'worker'.

And from what I hear from friends in Industry 'they'are still functioning, piling them on higher and deeper. 

Maybe is it when one gets 'really' old one doesn't give a rat's ****! 

I walked away to 'retire' at 55 ready to throttle some of the idiots. Spent the next 5 years in heaven, volunteering my services looking after all Mech/Elec/HVAC services to a Maritime Museum which just happened to have a 1958 Icebreaker as a floating B&B.......Back in the Marine world at last!

Now I spend at least 4 hours per day as a 'kind of' unofficial BP archavist, delving into the lives of hundreds of ex BP seagoing personnel.

"I is un Enjuner and I is proud of it", maybe I cannot spell! 

But you is what you is.

Graham


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## Hamish Mackintosh

I swear that automotive engineers get bigger bonuses the dumber they are!! Take for instance the airbag that kills kids!Not an engineering fault? strap your kids In backwards, or put them in the rear seats, is the contrite answer,The right hand mirror that magnifies everything(left side in blighty) that is why on a freeway people pass and then dive in front of you thinking they have oodles of room, when in fact they are only a few feet in front of your bumper,I have a jeep patriot which I am told, if it sticks (the gearshift)in park, to check the brakelight fuse?As that can be the cause of the problem(altho it does have a manual override)another wonder! Some models that have to have the engine lifted to get at the rear spark plugs,and another model that an exhaust pipe has to be removed in order to change the engine oil filter, cor stone the crows I could go on and on about the wonderful engineering flaws built into the modern automobile, but I am sure you guys have encountered a few of your own


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## Varley

Graham, Father was BP's pipeline engineer. Although his degree was taken as a 'civil' his 'civil' practice was confined to the Argentine Railways. Latterly his practice was as a 'mechanical' (stoker, Lt(E) RN(Temp) then BP until retirement in 65/66. He was sufficiently proud of his practice to deny anyone without a degree (or entrance by examination into an engineering institution) the title 'engineer'. Mind you early in his career with BP he shared an office with a colleague who still wore a long nail on his 'little' finger - this was to show he was not a manual worker.

Some changes are for the good!


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## jg grant

If engineers were born who bore them? And if they were made, who made them? Just a thought.


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## Graham Wallace

Varley said:


> Graham, Father was BP's pipeline engineer. Although his degree was taken as a 'civil' his 'civil' practice was confined to the Argentine Railways. Latterly his practice was as a 'mechanical' (stoker, Lt(E) RN(Temp) then BP until retirement in 65/66. He was sufficiently proud of his practice to deny anyone without a degree (or entrance by examination into an engineering institution) the title 'engineer'. Mind you early in his career with BP he shared an office with a colleague who still wore a long nail on his 'little' finger - this was to show he was not a manual worker.
> 
> Some changes are for the good!


Your father must have had an interesting/unusual career. 

I have never before heard the comment about and extended nail on the little finger. I have never worn a ring on any finger of any hand, knowing too well the dangers of that practice. I was horrified to find that many Canadian Professional Engineers by tradition wear a small shaped steel ring on the small finger of their working hand, naturally I do not.

When I lived in UK and in the Institution of Mechanical ( or Marine ) Engineers I wore one of their ties......now there is another hazard in the making!
I still have a collection of unused special ties. The last time I wore a tie was at weddings of two of my daughters, they supplied the tie and I considered it a semi safe environment.

Graham


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## Hamish Mackintosh

Graham Wallace said:


> Your father must have had an interesting/unusual career.
> 
> I have never before heard the comment about and extended nail on the little finger. I have never worn a ring on any finger of any hand, knowing too well the dangers of that practice. I was horrified to find that many Canadian Professional Engineers by tradition wear a small shaped steel ring on the small finger of their working hand, naturally I do not.
> 
> When I lived in UK and in the Institution of Mechanical ( or Marine ) Engineers I wore one of their ties......now there is another hazard in the making!
> I still have a collection of unused special ties. The last time I wore a tie was at weddings of two of my daughters, they supplied the tie and I considered it a semi safe environment.
> 
> Graham


Here in Canada professional engineers go with the " P" eng ,and the suffix elec,mech,chem et all,am I right?But I have a nephew in Britain who completed his engineering degree(some years ago)and went on to become a "chartered" engineer, what is a "chartered" engineer pray tell


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## Graham Wallace

Hamish Mackintosh said:


> Here in Canada professional engineers go with the " P" eng ,and the suffix elec,mech,chem et all,am I right?But I have a nephew in Britain who completed his engineering degree(some years ago)and went on to become a "chartered" engineer, what is a "chartered" engineer pray tell


Hamish,

I am a Canadian P.Eng, as far as I know (1972) there has never been a written suffix denoting field of expertise.

I was also a Chartered Engineer in UK , ie C.Eng and I'll leave it up to my learned bretheren in UK to elucidate on that. I retired from my UK Institutions many years ago. P.Eng was all I needed.

On a more humourous vein when one has these Professional standards one can use them on letters etc. At one time mine could have been
G.I Mar E, MI Mech E, C.Eng, P.Eng, but then I would need larger envelopes.

It is quite amazing the letters that some tack on the end of their name. There was a special one I think I remember years ago in UK that had everyone smiling

"BA (Cantab) Failed", or was it "BA(Oxon)failed"?

Graham


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## waitimg for orders

*Engineer to the wire*



Dartskipper said:


> Memories of looking after Dad there M.L. Took him into A & E, and he was wired up for the ECG. That machine didn't work, dead battery. Wheeled in another one later and got a reading. Dad's pulse always had a beat missing for as long as he was alive, i.e. every 6th or 7th beat, it skipped one. The nurse tutted and took off the wires, muttering "Something wrong with this one, too."
> She never returned.
> Dad got admitted later that night anyway.
> 
> Roy.


I was having a stent fitted in my coronary artery and was wide awake watching the steering on the big X-Ray screen. I pointed out to the doc doing the job that this was just like a coiled tubing job in an oil well, just a lot smaller, and had a running conversation during the whole procedure. Going into shock during the job was an interesting technical experience, caused by a loss of blood pressure and I watched (and felt) the results with a keen, if somewhat detached, interest while asking the doc for an explanation of why my various bits were doing what they were doing. I think he was glad to see the back of me, I guess most of his clients were very quiet with their eyes screwed shut for the duration.


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## trotterdotpom

BA (Cantab) Failed" etc may have had their origins in "Round the Horn" and "The Goon Show". Lesser mortals in the M.N. Were limited to the letters "V.D. and Scar".

John T


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## waitimg for orders

In addition to Graham's slew of postnominals I can add "Citizen and Engineer of London" which gives me arcane rights like taking sheep across London Bridge toll-free and getting married in St Paul's Cathedral. Plus "the watch" are obliged to see me home safely if I am tired and emotional at the end of a long day. And I can wear a sword unsheathed in the City which is as close as any Brit is going to get to the Second Amendment. Not that I'd dare try it in the current climate.


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## trotterdotpom

WFO, is that the old London Bridge or the New London Bridge, now in Arizona, or the New New London Bridge?

What did you have to do to become a "Citizen and Engineer of London"?

John T


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## Varley

That looks like a citation when being given the 'Freedom' of the City of London (all round public 'good egg' honour in gift of the Aldermen of the City). I hazard that all would get the 'Citizen' with 'Engineer' describing specific calling of the 'Freeman' concerned. Much as a particularly good hearted prostitute might have 'Citizen and Tart of London'.


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## trotterdotpom

I thought it was an honour but I just looked it up and anybody who has lived in a cardboard box outside the Bank of England for a year can get the Freedom of the City for a hundred quid. I might go over there and find a derelict and give him a hundred pounds just so I can see him march into town with drums beating and his knob out.

John T


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## Farmer John

A very long time ago I saw a picture in a kids comic, a cat with a mortar board, his "Gown" had B A S I C S L A G on the back. A real degree! I did a Qual some time ago with RSA, they said I could put some letters after my name and my employers wanted me to use it. I said I was happy with that, if I could put "TL, Boy Scouts" there as well.

My brother started a degree many years ago, made a Horlicks of the first year and did it again, he was graded "Allowed a pass". Never out of work.


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## Varley

"Allowed a pass" (isn't that now a 'third class') is a valuable label to be given as it means he stayed the course. It is impossible for those that do stay not to absorb something of value in the gaps between hangovers.

My two years enjoying A levels gave me much of what allowed my to breeze through radio and later school. Was I allowed a pass? - "O" Level passes at "A" level. In the public sector I would have been slung out with three "O" Levels two years earlier and become a tramp. A silk purse may be beyond the material possibilities of a sow's ear but a serviceable purse is achievable.

Much like the riddiculed BA (Calcutta. Failed) it tells you more than just a blank.


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## waitimg for orders

*Freedom*



trotterdotpom said:


> I thought it was an honour but I just looked it up and anybody who has lived in a cardboard box outside the Bank of England for a year can get the Freedom of the City for a hundred quid. I might go over there and find a derelict and give him a hundred pounds just so I can see him march into town with drums beating and his knob out.
> 
> John T


Quite right - for the first bit, the Freeman. If you want the second bit, you have to join a City Livery Company, in which case you obtain the freedom through presentation. The Freedom of the City is required to become a Liveryman of the Company. Honorary Freedom is given to very few, is awarded for special achievement, and is a rare privilege, in this case no application is needed. The Livery Companies, the mediaeval trades unions, are these days charitable and social organisations in the main although some, like the Goldsmiths, still have official duties - in their case hallmarking of gold and silver. The City and Guilds Institute was founded by the livery companies to progress their ancient role of training apprentices in their trades. Recent Livery Companies have been formed for taxi drivers and tax advisers! They are basically a great excuse to meet up with like-minded people from all walks of life and have an excellent dinner in the fabulous livery company halls in the City - or in the case of the Master Mariners, HMS Wellington on the bank of the Thames. Rare opportunity for the missus to put on a posh frock and get the best jewellery out. Mostly more fun than sitting in front of the box and eating a takeaway, except for a wet February night when you can't be ****d to do anything else.


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## trotterdotpom

Thanks for the info, WFO - sounds like a laugh. I went and chucked my C&G Intermediate out - drats.

John T


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## Nick Jones

I remember being offered in Calcutta a sheepskin, inscribed with the words "BSC Calcutta (Failed). I wish I had bought it as a conversation piece later in life.
Cheers,
Nick Jones.


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## Long gone

Varley said:


> "Allowed a pass" (isn't that now a 'third class') is a valuable label to be given as it means he stayed the course. It is impossible for those that do stay not to absorb something of value in the gaps between hangovers.
> 
> My two years enjoying A levels gave me much of what allowed my to breeze through radio and later school. Was I allowed a pass? - "O" Level passes at "A" level. In the public sector I would have been slung out with three "O" Levels two years earlier and become a tramp. A silk purse may be beyond the material possibilities of a sow's ear but a serviceable purse is achievable.
> 
> Much like the riddiculed BA (Calcutta. Failed) it tells you more than just a blank.


Thought it was BH (Calcutta) failed. The bloodhound in the _Perishers_ cartoon in the Daily Mirror


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## Scelerat

Varley said:


> "Allowed a pass" (isn't that now a 'third class') is a valuable label to be given as it means he stayed the course. It is impossible for those that do stay not to absorb something of value in the gaps between hangovers.
> 
> My two years enjoying A levels gave me much of what allowed my to breeze through radio and later school. Was I allowed a pass? - "O" Level passes at "A" level. In the public sector I would have been slung out with three "O" Levels two years earlier and become a tramp. A silk purse may be beyond the material possibilities of a sow's ear but a serviceable purse is achievable.
> 
> Much like the riddiculed BA (Calcutta. Failed) it tells you more than just a blank.


First Class Honours, Upper Second Class Honours, Lower Second Class Honours, Third Class Honours, then "Pass" (No Honours) and, if one is attractive enough and female and should never have been allowed on the course at all, Diploma. You can also have MA (Failed) which denotes a student who gained a BA at Oxford or Cambridge but hasn't paid the fee that converts the BA into an MA. There's also the now very rare "Aegrotat" denoting a degree awarded by the University on the basis of their work over the three years because the student was too ill to take the exams.


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## A.D.FROST

Doxford engineers are born with 6ft.shoulders and 3ins.between the ears


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## waitimg for orders

*Diversity defree*



Scelerat said:


> First Class Honours, Upper Second Class Honours, Lower Second Class Honours, Third Class Honours, then "Pass" (No Honours) and, if one is attractive enough and female and should never have been allowed on the course at all, Diploma. You can also have MA (Failed) which denotes a student who gained a BA at Oxford or Cambridge but hasn't paid the fee that converts the BA into an MA. There's also the now very rare "Aegrotat" denoting a degree awarded by the University on the basis of their work over the three years because the student was too ill to take the exams.


Carol Vorderman, most oversexposed identity in the media, got a Third in each year of her engineering degree at Cambridge. Not confidence building but good enough for Countdown and a career as a pundit in hard sums for those who know s**t. Her replacement Rachel Riley has a proper 2:1 in megahard maths from Oriel Oxford with specialties including quantum mechanics and fluid mechanics. And looks like a goddess. One suspects she would be a rather scary date. She tries hard to suppress her obvious intelligence on TV but occasionally when she has had enough sexist banter the jokey Sarfend accent slips and the Oxford don breaks through like high speed steel on a workpiece. Ouch.


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## trotterdotpom

Just looked up Rebecca. Very nice but dare I suggest that it was the jugs that got her the job rather than the brains. Can't beat the facts of life.

John T


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## Samsette

trotterdotpom said:


> Just looked up Rebecca. Very nice but dare I suggest that it was the jugs that got her the job rather than the brains. Can't beat the facts of life.
> 
> John T


Hanging around Sunnybrook Farm, eh?


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## berbex

This says it all, if it works.

https://www.facebook.com/weloveengineering/videos/776832135722409/


Sorry, i missed the introd bit.


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## Blackal

I'm the fourth generation of Chief Engineer on my Father's side of the family. Whilst not "actively encouraged" to go to sea - going on summer holidays at age 8 - on the ore-carriers to Narvik.......... might have had an influence.

So - some engineers are born, I reckon.


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## Steve Hodges

I bred three sons, none of whom showed the slightest interest in things mechanical whilst under my roof. BUT... the youngest, after unsuccessfully trying to make a career in music, ended up as a temp labourer at a firm making experimental jet engines. Now six years on they are sending him to college at age 29 to qualify in production engineering. As I keep telling him, it's all in the genes.....


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## Mariner44

Blackal said:


> I'm the fourth generation of Chief Engineer on my Father's side of the family. Whilst not "actively encouraged" to go to sea - going on summer holidays at age 8 - on the ore-carriers to Narvik.......... might have had an influence.
> 
> So - some engineers are born, I reckon.


This sounds like the Nature vs Nuture debate being opened up! Was the root cause your family genes, or was it your exposure to the early sea-going experience?

I'm sure that some aspiring PhD student could dream up an identical-twins study to work this one out.


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## Scelerat

I have two sons (that I know of!!!) neither wants to be a teacher, as they know the realities of the job. However, the older would have gone to sea if the job and the life was still as it was when I went to sea.


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## frangio

Hamish Mackintosh said:


> I swear that automotive engineers get bigger bonuses the dumber they are!! Take for instance the airbag that kills kids!Not an engineering fault? strap your kids In backwards, or put them in the rear seats, is the contrite answer,The right hand mirror that magnifies everything(left side in blighty) that is why on a freeway people pass and then dive in front of you thinking they have oodles of room, when in fact they are only a few feet in front of your bumper,I have a jeep patriot which I am told, if it sticks (the gearshift)in park, to check the brakelight fuse?As that can be the cause of the problem(altho it does have a manual override)another wonder! Some models that have to have the engine lifted to get at the rear spark plugs,and another model that an exhaust pipe has to be removed in order to change the engine oil filter, cor stone the crows I could go on and on about the wonderful engineering flaws built into the modern automobile, but I am sure you guys have encountered a few of your own


My wife had a Honda Civic a few years ago. When a headlight bulb blew I looked at it and couldn't figure out how I could replace it. Could release the bulb but there was no way it would fit past other components. When I resorted to the book I found out that you had to remove the cooling system header tank to change the bulb. This would then mean bleeding the cooling system. Can't imagine anyone doing that at the side of the road in the dark!


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## Varley

I am not sure I like to hear "automotive engineer" coupled with the marine variety.

Having just set fire to Mrs Underwood's car as the finale to fitting a radio I was chatting to Tommy Roach over a chinese meal (won in a bet, he had challenged me over the QE2's network voltage and just because he had worked on her build he thought he knew the answer). He commiserated (I had been demoted to cabin boy for at least a week) but pointed out how stupid I had been - electricity is simply not the same on cars and yachts and I should have known better than to meddle there.


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## Diesel Dan

Ah Dave, I believe you did a brief spell in Peterhead after the radio incident.


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## Varley

Hamish, I did several and I suppose you got that from the (other) fatman but it wasn't exile (TDU realised he should not try and get things done on the cheap) but funless electrickery- some fools had decide to propel boats (almost ships by damn) by self generated electricity and point them using computers. Mrs V's little boy would not have been operational in an environment where a little blackout would likely cost a life.

(Mind you, DP with a Gotaverken might have been altogether too much fun).


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## Diesel Dan

I thought it was the penitentiary.


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## Blackal

Mariner44 said:


> This sounds like the Nature vs Nuture debate being opened up! Was the root cause your family genes, or was it your exposure to the early sea-going experience?
> 
> I'm sure that some aspiring PhD student could dream up an identical-twins study to work this one out.


Four generations would indicate (to me anyway) that it is the former.

Previous generations did not have the exposure I had.

Al


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## Varley

Steve Hodges said:


> I bred three sons, none of whom showed the slightest interest in things mechanical whilst under my roof. BUT... the youngest, after unsuccessfully trying to make a career in music, ended up as a temp labourer at a firm making experimental jet engines. Now six years on they are sending him to college at age 29 to qualify in production engineering. As I keep telling him, it's all in the genes.....


Not Bladon jets by any chance?


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## Varley

Diesel Dan said:


> I thought it was the penitentiary.


Not quite as little fun as that!


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## Steve Hodges

Varley said:


> Not Bladon jets by any chance?


No, Reaction Engines - turbine/rocket hybrids for ( hopefully ) the next generation of lift-to-orbit vehicles.


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## Varley

#54. Thanks for the follow up.


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## dannic

Am 3rd of 4 generations seagoing engineers, grandad steam chief, dad combined chief, me motor chief and eldest son currently sitting his motor chief's. Youngest son no interest in things mechanical at all! Genetics? Who knows?
Dannic


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## Blackal

dannic said:


> Am 3rd of 4 generations seagoing engineers, grandad steam chief, dad combined chief, me motor chief and eldest son currently sitting his motor chief's. Youngest son no interest in things mechanical at all! Genetics? Who knows?
> Dannic


Sounds like you will equal what I believe is a record of 4 chief engineers in successive generations (in UK). (Thumb)

Al


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## orcades

*letters after name*



trotterdotpom said:


> BA (Cantab) Failed" etc may have had their origins in "Round the Horn" and "The Goon Show". Lesser mortals in the M.N. Were limited to the letters "V.D. and Scar".
> 
> John T


Nice one john, Its a long time since I heard that expression much less used it, but it sure made me smile. Thing is, when on a steam ship an engineer makes thing work and keeps them working, Letters after ones name wont repair a kaput feed pump or expand a leaking boiler tube , but an engineer can. Try reading McAndrews Hyme Makes you think.


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## Ian860B

It would be interesting to have real engineers tested for dyslexia, I have met a few brilliant engineers who could fix any machine with only a pocket of tools and have a deep understanding of what they were doing but could hardly write their names.
Can't say I have met one recently.
IanB


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## Blackal

No idea about *that*, but................ 

Ever since I was 4yrs-old - I wanted to be a Marine Engineer.


Now - I are one! (Thumb)

Al


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## Hugh Ferguson

They are indeed! I remember a generator crank case explosion fire that spread into the port main engine air intake in the Gulf of Aden in July c.1950 aboard the Glenroy.
I was watch 2nd mate when it happened and Captain Simmonds sent me down the eingine-room to see how they were getting on.
I went down via the boat-deck entrance and it was as hot as HELL!
All the engineers were stripped to their under-pants and it was quite a job to see who was who. The 2nd engineer told me they thought they had it under control.
I came up via the main deck entrance where the deck crowd had stripped the ship of its entire stock of fire extinguishers!
I arrived back on the bridge-not quite as immaculate- in my whites and reported to the Captain.

I salute all marine engineers for what they are sometimes called upon to do.

( We arrived in Aden on the starboard main engine where those, already exhausted engineers, having to get the port main going again: all that in july!!!)


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## tiachapman

talking of E C G machines i had a heart attack 22 days ago after a opp and i came too lay there watching that worry machine most of my waking hours glad to say im on the mend.


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## 5036

tiachapman said:


> talking of E C G machines i had a heart attack 22 days ago after a opp and i came too lay there watching that worry machine most of my waking hours glad to say im on the mend.


Great to hear, I wish you a full and speedy recovery.

Remember, surgeons are just very skilled body engineers. They take them apart, repair them,modify them and fit new and replacement parts to them.

Years ago I was given a Haynes Manual of the Mk 1 Human containing full instructions and cutaways.


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## 5036

There are two types of people. Engineers and those who want to be engineers.


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## Farmer John

Ian860B said:


> It would be interesting to have real engineers tested for dyslexia, I have met a few brilliant engineers who could fix any machine with only a pocket of tools and have a deep understanding of what they were doing but could hardly write their names.
> Can't say I have met one recently.
> IanB


I have taught many hundreds of students to use IT, not needed so much now, all children take it in with their mother's milk. My experience was that dyslexic students were much better at taking the skills on board, I thought because they visualised things in a different way and could conceive "files" and changes to "files", along with the spacial concept of directory structures. Just my thoughts.


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## skilly57

The comments regarding dyslexic engineers are so true!
When I first went to sea it was with a 2nd engineer who had a totally different way of looking at the mechanical problems we experienced. During the next 18 years we frequently sailed together on 4 different self-discharging bulk carriers, and many times John's unusual take on a problem would end up with a novel and long-lasting repair. Eventually, when I became C/E, John was still 2nd (he felt his lack of writing skills would preclude him from passing the ticket), and I always valued his input. We had a lot of hilarious moments, and he was a good friend. Unfortunately, cancer took him in his early 50's, but not before he had been awarded a prestigious life-saving medal for taking a small boat out in a violent storm and saving many lives when a 9,000 ton ferry sank in our area.
One of his shore-side hobbies was training and displaying teams of draught horses, and he had a special rapport with them as well. 
His dyslexia was definitely no hurdle when looking at his achievements.

Skilly


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## Winmar

As a rock dodger and a person who could always navigate a ship on the wet bits only, I have my own views on what constitutes an able injunere! I sailed with two unlimited Steam & Motor Chief Engineers who also carried the additional moniker of "Member of the Institute of Diagnostic Engineers". Now I don't know what one has to do to become one of those, but neither of the aforementioned gentlemen had the ability to diagnose when a bulb had blown! They both had all of the practical engineering nous of a gerbil on steroids, and couldn't fix themselves a Gin & Tonic!!!!! During a particularly memorable breakdown, incidentally caused by one of the aforementioned gentlemen when trying to parallel generators, he asked me what I thought? I replied, I think you are a count (apologies for spelling mistake) who is doing a real engineer out of a job!
On the other hand, I have sailed with at least two chief engineers who held Certificates of Service (thought diagnostic was a type of religious leaning) to do their jobs who could fix anything and their ships were the most efficient and well maintained I have ever sailed on. So I guess what I am saying is that to be a good engineer you didn't always need bits of paper or fancy memberships, you just had to be practical with a common sense approach or be born to be an engineer. It's all in the hands you know! My apologies to any engineer with great quals who could actually engineer. It was the same on the deck side, some of the best shiphandlers and ship masters I ever sailed with had home trade tickets or certificates of service. Qualifications are nothing without ability!


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## Varley

I am a member of the Society of Diagnostic Engineering as it is now. A pity the AGM has just gone or I would have proposed your Gin and Tonic test. It is an organisation which accepts members with experience based qualifications (ie, none) providing they have a track record in practice (or subsequently retired). A lot of good guys and interesting incident reports in the journal.


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## Rope Locker

This is an old one often used by the uncertificated variety who often held positions up to Second Engineer. That aside, I sailed with many cerificated who I would not carry as ballast. Worst of all in all departments were ex RN ratings and in particular RN engineers. Absolute crap.


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## jg grant

nav you are well aware no doubt that that particular expression can be modified to suit any one persons particular bias.


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## Varley

I am sure it is bias. I sailed under a very good and pleasant ex RN second (and who pray would not want a pleasant shipmate before I am told off for including it).

That said I am afraid after several disappointments I put RN candidates for E/O to the bottom of the applications pile. This on the account of basic learning. I had had the mild displeasure of sailing with a makey learny E/O when I was still Sparkie on Stonehaven. Too specialized in that we did not have an enormous need for torpedo technicians even when, as he would have told you himself, many times. Many, many times, that that is what he was very good at.


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## david freeman

there were many sides to being a marine engineer. I had the privilege of being involved, with the engineers EK's and Orals. As noted, and it was a surprise to me, that 'copper plate' hand writing was often missing, and one would have thought a spider had written the solutions to the problem, ( no disparaging comments upon the engineering logic though).
It was a pleasure to have a thought process with in the EK's Orals, and not a sub paragraph from one of the mighty marine engineering tomes such as Mc Gibbons/Southerns or the NEWNES series.
One of the assets I appreciated was common sense, and an appreciation of an engineering drawing0 whether schematic or a line diagram, and the ability to sketch freehand, and talk though what was required to effect the actual repair/fault rectification that had been identified.
As is said an engineer is not found in books, but is created with his tools, and equipment. It is still a skill in a foreign port to effect the required voyage or drydock repairs, to bring the ship/vessel back to its home port.
This I believe was the objective of the EK's and Orals in the then old BOT examination system. RIP


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## Engine Serang

Doing EK Orals in front of Bob Barr you quickly learned that theory and bullsh1t got you nowhere. Sound practical engineering and common sense was the order of the day. 
STCW and "Standards" are a hobby horse of mine and I've yet to meet anyone that thinks standards have been maintained over these past 20-30 years.


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## Baz1uk

Jack Hughes in Liverpool was of the same ilk. One guy in front of me had never seen a Scotch Boiler, so Hughes sent him down to one of the IOM Steam packet jobs to see one


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## sternchallis

Engine Serang said:


> Doing EK Orals in front of Bob Barr you quickly learned that theory and bullsh1t got you nowhere. Sound practical engineering and common sense was the order of the day.
> STCW and "Standards" are a hobby horse of mine and I've yet to meet anyone that thinks standards have been maintained over these past 20-30 years.


Was Bob Barr the examiner in Hull?

It reminds me of the old chestnut that the lecturers used to tell us.
If after you have done your orals and the examiner asks you to turn on the kettle on the way out, make sure you check to see if there is any water in it first. Otherwise you have failed. "Do you think I would trust you as a 2nd to flash up the boiler without checking it for water".


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## Varley

An examiner would have a boiler without LL alarm and LL trip or one with both defective?


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## Engine Serang

At least the kettle didn't have a gauge glass, although our new kettle is plastic and has a see-through strip Port and Stbd. The hob is out of bounds.
You are right and correct Sternchallis, Bob Barr was the examiner in Hull. I did Seconds in 1976 and Chiefs in 1979 and he took the Orals. He passed me and then told me he thought Harrisons was a better Company than Kuwait Shipping. Was he correct???


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## sternchallis

Eng Serang, I was originally from Hull, worked on the fish dock repairing trawlers before going to sea (it was good grounding). Did all my tickets in Hull so probably had orals with Bob Barr. Wonder if he was related to my Maths teacher at school, Fred Barr.

So you would have come across Dave Taylor for EK's Stan for Electro, then there was Harbottle who taught EK's whilst studying for a degree, he was chasing one of the librarians, had a new tie every week that you could see in the dark. He went into Lloyds. I was talking to Dave Taylor a few months ago and he seems to be keeping well. Whilst an apprentice took a pre-sea course with Dave Taylor, couple of hours on Wednesday night, purely voluntary. He just took the 2nds Steam, Motor and General sylabus , sketch and describe. It was very informative, so when I eventually went to sea I knew exactly what I was looking at and what it did, coupled with my apprenticeship. We had an exam at the end and the highest mark got a book token from the local MareEng branch. Stiĺ got my notes.

George St. was a good college, all lecturers bar one had been at sea and he was a naval architect who took us for shop construction.
Chap who took us for naval arch/fire fighting had been deck side, and also looked after cadets. 
As for Kuwait, I understand they only recruited British to teach the locals, then a few years later got rid of all the British. 
Wasn't T&J's general tramping, must have been better than tankers, at least you saw the world and spent a bit of time in port.

Re :kettles I refuse to buy a kettle with a sight glass as they leak or scale up.

No Varley, just an old furred up kettle.


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## david freeman

hull, hell, and Halifax come to mind! I enjoyed my ticket leave/studies in Hull tech for 2/e1/e and endorsement in the mid-late sixties, with the resident Eng dept tutors mentioned in the eks steam and motor, electrics, naval arch, and that occassional beer at the MN hotel opposite the railway station (boothferry road)??? as you may note my English is not up to scratch/spelling


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## sternchallis

Yes I have a spelling problem these days (shouldn't do considering the number of books I read), I put it down to the font on tablets and the brain being used to the spell check on a pc. I often resort to the dictionary, still cannot find the word as I am spelling it totally wrong.

Yes Hull had some good lecturers. I am not sure if the social temptations were similar to places like Liverpool or South Shields, but I have heard stories about these places that people resort to drink and fail their exams.
I used to study till late several nights a week and Sunday, and it paid off.
What is it that the SAS say , train hard , fight easy.
I eould have liked to have taken a Steam endorsement, but you had to be in the mafia to get an a steam ship, with so few left with BSL.
Though it did not hold me back when applying for a job as a boiler surveyor with Insurance Inspection companies, better than spending all day looking at eye bolts and shackles.


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## david freeman

remember those adverts for jobs with 2/e tickets british engine and another at least 5-6 industrial insurance companies as a lift or boiler surveyor, or those hospital boards, who were looking for hospital engineers. The money was not great, however it was a way to swallow the anchor.


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## sternchallis

I had been ashore about ten years but living in Florida, before retuning to the UK and taking up the surveyors job, so it wasn't the big drop in salary. I suppose the worse part of the job was the driving, especially M4 corridor, though I met a chief at sea who did it for a while in East Anglia where there were no motorways and few roads, then came back to sea.
It was an interesting job especially when something had failed your inspection like a boiler needed re-tubing or had a cracked tube plate (twin & single furnace scotch boilers mainly) then you had to oversee the repairs. Or the boilers at Windsor Castle or a traction engine boiler.
Once the 6 companies started to amalgamate, you was just a production employee not an Engineer Surveyor and were you used to have a former surveyor ex marine engineer as a boss you got some manager type that hadn't clue of your job and was just interested in spreadsheets.


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## Fergie

I joined a Union Co vessel after her maiden voyage from Leith. All went well for about 12 months when temperatures and noise from the gear box connecting two main engines to a single shaft through magnetic couplings became noticeable. Inspection covers were opened and every helical gear tooth was pock marked. Further investigation showed the system built by British Thomson Houston had never been flushed, cleaned, inspected, after manufacture and assembly. We scraped out buckets of steel swarf, even complete drill ribbons. Then came the hand honing of every gear tooth to remove the crushing effect of steel particles being forced thru the gear meshing. Ship's engineers did all this in several ports while the vessel maintained its schedule. Replacing the large gear box covers and ensuring they were oil tight was a real bind. I was proud of the Kiwi engineers, not so of some others.


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