# Radar



## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

Looking through various threads, including Radar, Blue Star Line and Canberra Star.

I joined the Canberra Star in Liverpool, 1971. She was being fitted with her first Radar, a Decca. It was on the portside near the bridge door. A protective wooden enclosure had been built around the display unit, with a Perspex screen surmounting the structure looking forward and to the starboard side. This alone must have cost a fortune.

As R/O with a Radar ticket, in those days you got £4 extra, however I was advised the 2nd mate was responsible for radar maintenance and therefore I would not be receiving my 'ticket' allowance.
As you do, prior to sailing, I watched the aerials being rigged, and noticed the flag halyards wafting in the breeze. I did go to find a 'Mate', honest, to advise of the impending problem. Too late. The radar had been switched on, scanner turned and stopped.
Second mate appeared with the biggest ever screwdriver. This put the Old Man on edge. We came to an agreement on my ticket allowance.
The Radar was used only after consultation with the OM.

On an Ellerman Pappayani ship, the Radar MKIV Radiolocator transmitter was installed in the OM's cabin. It was enclosed in a soundproof cabinet, to minimise the sound. The OM had the key to open the cabinet, therefore there had to be a good reason for operating the radar.

I was on the Delphic, Shaw Saville, built in 1948, I found some correspondence in the radio room, which I regret not having kept. She must have been fitted very early with radar, but the correspondence virtually stated, how did they manage without it, more a reference to coastal and port entries than deep sea navigation.

In my shore side maintenance career, I often attended Radar installations, I was amazed that the number of so called Radar assisted collisions was not higher, this observation refers mostly to foreign flags, that is in the '70s.

There we go!!


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## Pilot mac (Jun 28, 2005)

I'm amazed that the Canberra Star didn't have radar till 1971.
I too was on several ships where the radar was contained in a small shed like structure within the wheelhouse. No idea why this was, didn't seem to serve any purpose at all. It was common practise to not have the radar on in fine weather and certainly not on whilst deep sea!

regards
Dave


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## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Dave
I have to assume it was her first, as there was no evidence of a previous installation. And there was never a comment, this ones better than the last one.

Peter


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

I think Blue Star were famous for not carrying radar after some sort of "radar assisted collision" - it's been mentioned before on the site.

There were lots of Old Men who didn't want the radar switched on - reasons varied from "white man's magic", "we managed without it before" and "it won't work when we get to the fog".

Waste of time explaining that if you only turn it on when you need it, the time it doesn't work will be when you need it. 

I got to the stage of hearing the "Wheeeeeeee" of the radar starting up and thinking: "Jesus Christ, what's popping inside that box now?"

John T


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## slick (Mar 31, 2006)

All,
In Hain's war built ships they were 110VDC and I believe the RADAR we had was 240AC, so a small Ac generator was fitted.
The Engineer had to contacted to give us power for the Radar, as above the old man had to be told as and when...
Ah!, how times have change.
I see that the speed over the ground and speed through the water appears unresolved?

Yours aye,

slick


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## Nova Scotian (Jul 2, 2006)

*Anthony Missing*



Pilot mac said:


> I'm amazed that the Canberra Star didn't have radar till 1971.
> I too was on several ships where the radar was contained in a small shed like structure within the wheelhouse. No idea why this was, didn't seem to serve any purpose at all. It was common practise to not have the radar on in fine weather and certainly not on whilst deep sea!
> 
> regards
> Dave


During my time at King Teds in London, early 1964, we were taken on a tour of the Royal Docks. I remember a Blue Star alongside with bow damage. The instructor asked our group if anything was missing. No radar.


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## Pilot mac (Jun 28, 2005)

slick said:


> All,
> In Hain's war built ships they were 110VDC and I believe the RADAR we had was 240AC, so a small Ac generator was fitted.
> The Engineer had to contacted to give us power for the Radar, as above the old man had to be told as and when...
> Ah!, how times have change.
> ...


I was Mate on a ship that had a similar electrical set up, the only trouble was that the Lecy had tapped a supply from the AC generator to the Old Mans Fridge. We had to go to his cabin and disconnect the fridge if we wanted to use the radar. Needless to say I used to switch his fridge off every time I went on watch, if he'd given me the occasional cold beer I may have acted differently!

regards
Dave


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## cajef (Feb 8, 2012)

trotterdotpom said:


> There were lots of Old Men who didn't want the radar switched on - reasons varied from "white man's magic", "we managed without it before" and "it won't work when we get to the fog".


The Old Man on the first Clan boat I sailed on was one of those, the mates had to ask his permission to switch it on then he would check the visibility and decide whether he would allow it to be on and then only for a short time.

One particular trip we sailed from Southampton to Capetown and it was never switched on at all on that trip.


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## Naytikos (Oct 20, 2008)

One Greek captain I sailed with asked me how often I thought the radar should be tested. The ship had two RCA 75KW sets, 3 & 10cm with massive mesh lemon-peel scanners.
I said why don't you run them alternately for 24 hours each? That didn't quite fit his thinking so he posted standing orders to changes radars every watch. 
It didn't help the second mate who was using the 3cm during a run through a rain-storm and so couldn't see a thing but wasn't allowed to swap to the 10cm.

Mind you this same captain had an artificial leg and would only sail on that particular ship because it had a lift right up to the bridge; his wife was German and he carried a WW2 vintage automatic pistol "for self defence"!


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## Rhodri Mawr (Jul 6, 2008)

Pilot mac said:


> I'm amazed that the Canberra Star didn't have radar till 1971.


Under international regulations, radar did not become compulsory until 1980 (although by that time, most if not all shipping companies had got the message and arranged for radar to be fitted).


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## John Campbell (Aug 30, 2005)

My first ship was the M.V. Southbank ,in 1952 ,and she had just been retro fitted with a Marconi Radar. The magnetron etc was fitted into a cupboard in an alleyway out side the oldman,s cabin. When switched on the noise was quite annoying and hence it was a rare thing to use the device . It was used only when in fog and when the captain was on the bridge. No officer got any practice and had no plotting skills - this coupled with the fact that the Radar screen was sighted so that it faced aft, the only time i have ever seen a screen so placed.
We did not have a gyro compass either.
When you see the gear on the ship,s of today you wonder how we got to those ports we did get to in Bank Line.
JC


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## J. Davies (Dec 29, 2010)

When I worked for Swire in the 80's on cargo ships running the Far East and Australasia, the navigators used to joke that they could sail round the coasts using Bank Line wrecks as waypoints!


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## reefrat (Nov 4, 2007)

We got radar in 1966?? only because the opposition radar equiped ships kept passing us anchored up and so beating us to the Thursday Island Jetty while we waited for dawn before entering the straits to discharge . The tide runs hard around T.I. those familiar with the area will remember the massive ship mooring bouys being totally dragged under by the run of the tide, their position being marked by a rooster tail of spray six foot high and twenty foot long. Obviously not a place to be fooling around in the dark. Once we got our radar, a simple Furuno, we were always first in.


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## bluemoon (Jul 19, 2009)

reefrat said:


> We got radar in 1966?? only because the opposition radar equiped ships kept passing us anchored up and so beating us to the Thursday Island Jetty while we waited for dawn before entering the straits to discharge . The tide runs hard around T.I. those familiar with the area will remember the massive ship mooring bouys being totally dragged under by the run of the tide, their position being marked by a rooster tail of spray six foot high and twenty foot long. Obviously not a place to be fooling around in the dark. Once we got our radar, a simple Furuno, we were always first in.


My memory of Thursday Island was where we dropped the reef pilot when north bound and also where we sent our order for those delectable prawns caught in the waters around there.


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## Naytikos (Oct 20, 2008)

posted by J Davies


> _When I worked for Swire in the 80's on cargo ships running the Far East and Australasia, the navigators used to joke that they could sail round the coasts using Bank Line wrecks as waypoints!_


That sounds right because while sitting with the other officers in a waiting room at the Inverforth offices, the soon-to-be master of the ship, which we were all about to join, announced that Bank Line expected to lose a ship a year somewhere around the Pacific Islands and as we were heading out there he hoped it would not be Inverbank's turn!


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## Hugh Slavin (Jul 14, 2009)

*Oi!! original thread by P Arnold*

Hey Pete, my memory is terrible (not old age, it's always been bad!), however long time no see, but where was it? Mimco Course, or round the depots? I seem to remember tho we had a bit of a laugh somewhere? 

Chelmsford? Might have been to do with radar!
Happy days - you forget the ****e ones eh? All best, Hugh

John T. Just get off your ****. (from our landlady - she sent me a spirit message) Just havnt been able to get on often enough, but as soon as I'm retired!!!!)


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Hello Hugh, knew you'd turn up eventually! Welcome.

Thanks for reminding me of La Biggs! Hadn't thought of her for months - now I'm rocking in a corner, gnawing at my knuckles. At least she saved me from the bloody army.

John T

PS Not retired yet? I'm guessing you're approaching the three score and ten .... Put your feet up, mate.


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## Dave Woods (Apr 9, 2006)

Sailed with Harrisons in 71 and had a Mk 4, the third mate had to go and get the key from the old man to unlock the display unit every morning to switch it on for 10 minutes. Once we got into the tropics and the bridge humidity rose and the bottles in the transmitter started to sweat and arc. Eventually the old man relented and left the radar running and we had no further problems.


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## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

Hugh Slavin said:


> Hey Pete, my memory is terrible (not old age, it's always been bad!), however long time no see, but where was it? Mimco Course, or round the depots? I seem to remember tho we had a bit of a laugh
> 
> Hi Hugh, sent you a PM.
> 
> Didn't we stay at the Spread Eagle at Witham? Sometime


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## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

Rhodri Mawr said:


> Under international regulations, radar did not become compulsory until 1980 (although by that time, most if not all shipping companies had got the message and arranged for radar to be fitted).


It then seemed mandatory to have two radars, both radars spinning at the same time. It seemed a pre occupation for many to compare target acquisition and strength and hearing comment, "this ones better than that one"

I did get older, but wiser is still under debate.


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## sparks69 (Dec 18, 2005)

I can remember being told by a DECCA Radar man that Trinity House had requested that when their radars were switched off the scanners would automatically line up fore & aft.
Always wondered if this was true.


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## Binnacle (Jul 22, 2005)

I was on the Benlawers in 1948, the gallery photo of her confirms that she did indeed have radar, my first ship with radar, I was only a sailor so type of radar unknown. In 1952 a "refurbished" Kelvin & Hughes radar was fitted on the Salvesen tramp Culter, it had come from a whale transport that was being scrapped, but to us sailing around the world it was very welcome. It had no electronic range marker or cursor, just a rotatable Perspex disc graduated every 10 degrees and several range rings which required a guestimate. Taking noon sights I told the old man we would pass Sombrero light at 1400 and I was over the moon the first trip with it when it showed up on the radar as expected. One drawback was we received a radar log from some body called ? the Radio Advisory Council, four carbon copies. Time on/off, height/aspect of target, range used, weather conditions etc etc. The old man was strict so we had to fill that damned log in if we switched on, tended to put you off, unless you really needed it in reduced vis or making a landfall. The Polar Maid had a radar shack on the monkey island, sparks went up to trace a fault, when he switched on the scanner cut the halyard for the paraffin masthead light and carrier and lamp came crashing down on the radio shack. He abandoned the radar shack fast. Over the years my preference was for Decca sets for reliability. Older masters who had sailed with radar during the war used to refer to the Admiralty 268 set. There's a web site covering the Admiralty WW2 radars.


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## cajef (Feb 8, 2012)

sparks69 said:


> I can remember being told by a DECCA Radar man that Trinity House had requested that when their radars were switched off the scanners would automatically line up fore & aft.
> Always wondered if this was true.


Not in the thirty years I worked for Decca and I fitted and serviced quite a few radars on Trinity House vessels.


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## Manchester (Feb 24, 2011)

The scanners would automatically align together to the wind direction if they were switched off!


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## sparks69 (Dec 18, 2005)

cajef said:


> Not in the thirty years I worked for Decca and I fitted and serviced quite a few radars on Trinity House vessels.


Must have been a bit of BS from the Decca man then - thanks.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

sparks69 said:


> Must have been a bit of BS from the Decca man then - thanks.


Certainly would have lined up with the BS in Trinity House.

John T


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## Alex Salmond (Mar 7, 2011)

I seem to remember there was a BOT safety film that came with the Walport movies where the poor innocent AB was soogying the radar and the dozy Sparky turned it on without looking sending the unlucky sod hurtling to the deck tccchh typical ...we loved them films especially the gruesome ones


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## IMRCoSparks (Aug 22, 2008)

Prior to around 1976, it was sometimes a good idea to leave the scanner pointing fore and aft rather than sideways. 
In the Canadian small boat industry where you sometimes had many vessels tied up together at the dock often in threes & fours, if any scanner was facing outwards and some fish or tugboat sailed past with its radar transmitting it would do some real damage to the stationary ship's radar.
In those days the front-end radar receiver was protected by the TR cell - ONLY if the radar was switched on and the TR cell energized. If not the front end receiver crystal(s) would usually blow if the offending radar was closer than 30' and each scanner was approximately at the same height. I can't tell you the number of times I came across this problem. Sometimes 20 radars would suddenly find themselves de-sensitized at one pass from one radar.

We tried to educate the skippers to keep their radars off until they were well clear of the dock. Deaf ears to most. Some moored boats would cover the scanner with aluminum foil when idle ( some forgot to remove it) Others would leave their radar on standby permanently.

After about 1976 the TR cell was eliminated in small boat radars and a solid-state circulator used instead, completely solving the problem.


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Alex Salmond said:


> I seem to remember there was a BOT safety film that came with the Walport movies where the poor innocent AB was soogying the radar and the dozy Sparky turned it on without looking sending the unlucky sod hurtling to the deck tccchh typical ...we loved them films especially the gruesome ones


I remember that one too, Alex, but the point was that the dozy AB hadn't put a "Man Aloft" sign on the radar display unit.

John T


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## Naytikos (Oct 20, 2008)

Re post 28:

Had that happen when doing ship-to-ship off Galveston. Two VLCCs moored together and we each blew the crystals in the radar that was not in use. Just a bad coincidence that one ship was using 10cm with the 3cm off and vice-versa.

The 'other ship' also destroyed our communal antenna system as, of course, it wasn't desensitized when he transmitted.


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## Ron Stringer (Mar 15, 2005)

As far as I am aware the deck department managed to collect wayward halyards using a rotating radar scanner on four ships during my time at sea. (Don't know how many they didn't tell me about). Each time it blew the fuses and stopped the radar so they had to call me out to fix it. Two _Radiolocator IV_ radars, one _Hermes_ with 12ft scanner and one other, some sort of Decca. 

All survived and no Mates were injured during the making of the above record. (Jester)


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## ernhelenbarrett (Sep 7, 2006)

On the old BenVrackie ex Samaffric we had a admiralty pattern 268 radar which
was just an "A" scan and that could be a tree, another vessel, or on one occasion, the coast of Japan in thick fog!!
Ern Barrett


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

As recently as about 1990ish I was with a 2 ship company that acquired a pair of Sperry 'touch screen' ARPAs as a job lot and fitted one to each ship.

The Master aka 'the company's bright young man' asked me one day.... 'Why did they get a bigger scanner than us?' ... never did tell him and I doubt he ever figured it out....


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## 8575 (Sep 8, 2006)

John Campbell said:


> My first ship was the M.V. Southbank ,in 1952 ,and she had just been retro fitted with a Marconi Radar. The magnetron etc was fitted into a cupboard in an alleyway out side the oldman,s cabin. When switched on the noise was quite annoying and hence it was a rare thing to use the device . It was used only when in fog and when the captain was on the bridge. No officer got any practice and had no plotting skills - this coupled with the fact that the Radar screen was sighted so that it faced aft, the only time i have ever seen a screen so placed.
> We did not have a gyro compass either.
> When you see the gear on the ship,s of today you wonder how we got to those ports we did get to in Bank Line.
> JC


I well remember the high pitched whining noise although you got used to it after a while. We had a Marconi job on the Avonbank and it worked fine all trip. We also had a RAS (I think it was called) plotting device to use if the mood took you! We got the cadets to make up plotting sheets on the back of cancelled charts so we and they could practice.

If you wanted an example of radars 'facing the wrong way' the RN Naiad Class of Frigates were fitted with aft facing displays if I remember rightly. If I'm wrong then it must have been another Class because I've seen it. Some, or maybe all, the RMAS Dog Class tugs had ancient Kelvin Hughes radars facing to port in the wheelhouse. When they worked they were excellent - had a sort of orange coloured tint to them. Things have certainly come a long way nowadays.


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

Cisco said:


> As recently as about 1990ish I was with a 2 ship company that acquired a pair of Sperry 'touch screen' ARPAs as a job lot and fitted one to each ship.
> 
> The Master aka 'the company's bright young man' asked me one day.... 'Why did they get a bigger scanner than us?' ... never did tell him and I doubt he ever figured it out....


Especially as, electrically, it was probably shorter!


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

sparks69 said:


> I can remember being told by a DECCA Radar man that Trinity House had requested that when their radars were switched off the scanners would automatically line up fore & aft.
> Always wondered if this was true.


Not so crazy as it sounds. On the BI Sirdhana, the OM insisted the scanner(Hermes radar, 12ft, if I remember correctly,) had to be fore and aft alongside. It was the cadet's job to do this.


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## dihdahdit (Dec 16, 2013)

*No radar on MV English Star 10,174 GT*

Hi guys
I'm sure I remember that no radar was installed on the English Star - that would have been about 1968-9. She was my first ship as a fully blown RO having done 7-1/2 months on SS Verconella - a Shell Tanker. I remember us taking a minesweeper on the foredeck all the way from Glasgow to Australia (Sydney I think). We had a slight list all the way.
Back to radar - we were always told it was because of a 'radar assisted collision' that one wasn't fitted! Only downside - sparks had to get up a silly times to get a good D/F bearing as we neared a foreign coast line! I think the more likely reason for no radar was that they were owned by the Vestey empire (them of corned beaf in South America) and they were renowned for being stingy with 'superflous' kit!
I was with Mimco from 1967-72 on several different ships - anyone out there still alive who remembers me? Jon Barker


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## slick (Mar 31, 2006)

Waighty,
RAS?, the initials, was it the initials of the Radio Advisory Service?

Yours aye,

slick


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## sidsal (Nov 13, 2007)

On a Brocklebank ship whose name I forget we had one of the first radars.
It was housed in a structure on the monkey island and an operator sat inside it and turned the scanner by hand. The screen just had a green fuzzy line and any echo showed as a blip on it. In port an armed guard was stationed by it. This was back end of ww2.
I will relate a humorous tale of an early radar on another Brock ship just after Ww2


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

slick said:


> Waighty,
> RAS?, the initials, was it the initials of the Radio Advisory Service?
> 
> Yours aye,
> ...


Maybe "Radar Augmentation System". If you Google "RAS Plotter", there is a photo of one which is at the National Maritime Museum.

John T


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## Criffh (Feb 27, 2006)

Joined Newcastle Star in Liverpool October 69, at the start of the Compass Line charter. Sailed for Cape Town and spent 24 hours at the Bar waiting for the fog to lift. No radar. Excellent run though, between South Africa/LM and Aus.


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## P.Arnold (Apr 11, 2013)

Criffh said:


> Joined Newcastle Star in Liverpool October 69, at the start of the Compass Line charter. Sailed for Cape Town and spent 24 hours at the Bar waiting for the fog to lift. No radar. Excellent run though, between South Africa/LM and Aus.


Was in Durban when we went onto Compass Charter. Went up the road two Four Seasons Hotel, leaving the blue star. Came back after a 'few'. no Matchbox in the sky. It was only after a bit of brain multi tasking we realised the funnel had been painted grey. The compass was done the next day.

Still getting older, can remember then, but now, the jury is out.


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## duncs (Sep 8, 2008)

Criffh said:


> Joined Newcastle Star in Liverpool October 69, at the start of the Compass Line charter. Sailed for Cape Town and spent 24 hours at the Bar waiting for the fog to lift. No radar. Excellent run though, between South Africa/LM and Aus.


Sailed on her, as 'Montevideo Star', circa '74. Worst gear I'd ever seen. The radio room was a converted bridge toilet. A very happy ship, with a great crowd. I had a survey in Sydney, and I asked the surveyor to condemn the station. He couldn't do it because it all worked.
Och well, such is life.


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## peterh76-86 (Jan 13, 2012)

*Decca Arpa*

We were anchored at one end of the Suez Canal waiting for a convoy. Had a call to go and look at the radar. Got to bridge had a look and every symbol the arpa could produce was appearing on the display. Space invaders gone mad. Removed most of the panelling to get the thing cooled down. Which worked.


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## John Briggs (Feb 12, 2006)

My first command, in 1968, was on a second hand ship purchased from Union Steamship Co, NZ, for Manners of Hong Kong.

She had no radar and no gyro. Compass went crazy on way north through the Barrier Reef and we had to anchor every night.

Had compass adjusted in Singapore and then in Japan owners fitted a small fishing boat radar.

That simple radar was a lifesaver and made my job so much easier.


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## Peter Eccleson (Jan 16, 2006)

Joined Port Alfred in 1973 - she had an old Kelvin Hughes radar with the display enclosed in varnished timber. Definitely not bought in IKEA!
Cabinet has a cross on the side in insulation tape where the 2nd Mate told me that they thumped it when the display disappeared to just a centre spot on the CRT. He said that it mainly happened after prolonged use of the radar. Damned annoying in fog! 
Hard one to fault find on since it kept righting itself. Finally twigged and spent the Atlantic crossing resoldering the tracks on the display PCB......did the trick!


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## Varley (Oct 1, 2006)

What a wasteful bugger you must have been Peter. Or did you re-use the insulating tape?


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## Peter Eccleson (Jan 16, 2006)

Varley said:


> What a wasteful bugger you must have been Peter. Or did you re-use the insulating tape?


Dave,
Definitely not! Radio & Electronic Services were generous with 'consumables' - but not so with KH spares!


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Were "Radio and Electronic Services", Kelvin Hughes?

I found KH very good, especially Geraldine MacGregor (Miss).

John T


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## Bob Murdoch (Dec 11, 2004)

John Briggs said:


> My first command, in 1968, was on a second hand ship purchased from Union Steamship Co, NZ, for Manners of Hong Kong.
> 
> She had no radar and no gyro. Compass went crazy on way north through the Barrier Reef and we had to anchor every night.
> 
> ...


Hi, John,
was it the Kauri by any chance? I know she was sold up to HK about that time.
She was my first ship with the Union SS Co in 1960.
Cheers Bob


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## John Briggs (Feb 12, 2006)

Hi Bob,

She was the Koromiko and not only did Manners fit a small radar, they changed the accommodation to give me a day room.

Had some good (if sometimes very nervous) times on that ship as I went through my makee learny phase.


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## Bob Murdoch (Dec 11, 2004)

Thanks John,
She was younger than the Kauri.
No mod cons on the Union ships, but good conditions otherwise
Cheers Bob


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## Wismajorvik (Dec 29, 2011)

On my first voyage I was required to go aloft several times to replace a fuse repeatedly blowing in the ancient Decca radar as we coasted from Swansea to Liverpool. In Liverpool a new Kelvin Hughes radar was installed with a slotted waveguide antenna. Being fresh from college I asked if the installers had allowed for 'slant' as they attempted with difficulty to set up the ship's heading switch. Apparently this was new to them and a certain amount of filing was required to resolve the problem. Sailing down the East African coast the range rings disappeared and I located the fault to a resistor on one of these new 
fangled pcbs. Spares on board were minimal and the repair consisted of two oversize resistors hanging by wires under the display until we arrived in Durban.
Later in life I was repairing a radar with a 'stalled' scanner and made the mistake of pushing it by hand which of course freed it and it quickly revolved and cracked me on the head.


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## Peter Eccleson (Jan 16, 2006)

trotterdotpom said:


> Were "Radio and Electronic Services", Kelvin Hughes?
> 
> I found KH very good, especially Geraldine MacGregor (Miss).
> 
> John T


No, R&ES were the old Brocklebank Wireless Company that 'morphed' into the Cunard Group's radio department


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## trotterdotpom (Apr 29, 2005)

Thanks Peter.

John T


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