# Question ?



## Binnacle

Having missed the tide sailing from the loading berth we moored at a riverside layby, I went ashore after tea to phone home and went into the lounge of a nearby hotel for a glass of beer. As I was leaving to return to the ship I heard a shout and it turned out this fellow was the proprietor, he said that some sailors in the bar had informed him who I was and said that he thought I should know that the pilot who had recently left the bar had consumned *fourteen* measures of spirits. Whether the sailors had prompted him to advise me or whether it was of his own concerns I did not know. It was about three hours before we were due to depart seawards. When I came back aboard I noticed that the pilot's cabin door was closed. This happened about fifty years ago in the UK. 
Now fellow members, what would you have done if you had been in my shoes ?.


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## John Briggs

I would put him on the shake, tell him what had been told to you and make your own assessment of his sobriety.
If he appeared pished then give him the option of going ashore and feigning some injury or other so another pilot would be called out. Otherwise he would be reported to the appropriate authority.
What did you do?


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## WilliamH

Nothing! You did not know if the pilot had been drinking, if he was drunk the Captain would realise that he had been drinking when he appeared on the bridge for departure .


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## chadburn

As you did not see the amount he had consumed then basically it's just hearsay and dangerous ground for you. It may well be that the other Seaman were genuine but as you are aware "wind ups" are something that happen's between Ships Crew's. An experienced O/M would spot if the Pilot was not performing as he should even if he chew's nutmeg to cover the smell of drink. You should keep the O/M informed that you had been told the Pilot had been in the Bar to clear yourself but leave it to other's to decide whether the Pilot is capable or not.


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## Davie M

I remember this being a discussion point on a promotion board in a well known
telecoms co.The question was a member of staff appeared to be drunk and was about to drive an official vehicle what would you do. The outcome was the only person qualified to say he was drunk was a doctor.
Davie


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## John Dryden

You wouldn,t want to be climbing a pilot ladder after that amount anyway so if he did he was probably sober when he got off.
Drink was tolerated then and I know where I live the pub next to the pilot station in Hull(Oberon)was always awash with Humber pilots heading home.
Must have been a long pilotage if he went in the cabin though!


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## ben27

good morning binnacle s.m.yesterday,20:37.re:question.i have read your interesting question.may i ask.what did you do? there appears to be many pros and cons.i am interested in the outcome.have a good day.ben27


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## John Briggs

Re post #2. I am assuming Binnacle was the Master.


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## oldman 80

Binnacle said:


> Having missed the tide sailing from the loading berth we moored at a riverside layby, I went ashore after tea to phone home and went into the lounge of a nearby hotel for a glass of beer. As I was leaving to return to the ship I heard a shout and it turned out this fellow was the proprietor, he said that some sailors in the bar had informed him who I was and said that he thought I should know that the pilot who had recently left the bar had consumned *fourteen* measures of spirits. Whether the sailors had prompted him to advise me or whether it was of his own concerns I did not know. It was about three hours before we were due to depart seawards. When I came back aboard I noticed that the pilot's cabin door was closed. This happened about fifty years ago in the UK.
> Now fellow members, what would you have done if you had been in my shoes ?.


More information required please .
What was your position on board at the time ?
Was Pilot compulsory or otherwise ?
Would tugs be required for the departure from the riverside lay by location ?
Which Port was it ?


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## Stephen J. Card

John Briggs said:


> I would put him on the shake, tell him what had been told to you and make your own assessment of his sobriety.
> If he appeared pished then give him the option of going ashore and feigning some injury or other so another pilot would be called out. Otherwise he would be reported to the appropriate authority.
> What did you do?



I agree completely. The pilot is on board to advise. If you thought the situation was unsafe for ANY reason, including ther personal safety of the pilot, call for another pilot.


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## oldseamerchant

One must always remember that the Pilot is there to assist and therefore in an advisory capacity only. Sure, there are a handful of authorities around the word where they will vary this (Panama etc) but come that accident and lets see how they stand up. Pilots brought to book for negligence are less than a handful.
Remember one thing. As Master you are on your own and until you have occupied the position you will never realise the responsibilities and stress that can attach.


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## jmcg

OSM

Did you "occupy" such a position and if so in which outfits. You appear to boast a lot about engines and indeed pilots/pilotage.


Do let us know - secrecy is not good for you!


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## Binnacle

John Briggs said:


> I would put him on the shake, tell him what had been told to you and make your own assessment of his sobriety.
> If he appeared pished then give him the option of going ashore and feigning some injury or other so another pilot would be called out. Otherwise he would be reported to the appropriate authority.
> What did you do?


Thanks for the wise reply John.

Rightly or perhaps wrongly, I chose not to disturb the pilot and confront him with the allegations at that time. Come near departure time I went up to the bridge, the pilot was already there and discussing with port control arrangements for departure. I noticed nothing in actions or speech to suggest he was incapacitated through drink and I concluded he was not drunk. I refrained from making any mention of the accusations that had been made about him. We departed the berth and pilotage was completed without incident. However it was noticed his demeanour had changed since boarding in the dock several hours before, when he originally boarded he was in a high state of agitation regarding us catching the tide regardless of the fact that we had not completed loading. Now there was no sign of this agitation and stress. I was aware that if any untoward incident had occurred then the finger of blame would have been pointed at me for ignoring the warning given by the hotelier. On a subsequent call at the port I found out this pilot had at one time been given a lengthy spell of sick leave in an attempt to cure his alcohol addiction. So he probably did consume the spirits alleged by the hotel owner but had over a time built up a high level of alcohol tolerance (hollow leg syndrome). Perhaps I should have covered my back by avoiding any repercussions by alerting the ship's agent as to my concerns and suggesting he discuss matters with the pilotage authority in case a replacement was considered necessary. I had decided, rightly or wrongly that the best place for judging the pilot’s sobriety was on the bridge or elsewhere if he failed to appear at the sailing time. This was one of the very few time in my sea career where a pilot’s sobriety on duty was questioned. Would I handle the matter in the same way again ? No, thirty-five years of hindsight and advanced technology I would be carrying a breathaliser and mobile phone and doing as you suggested.

Cheers (Pint)


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## oldman 80

Binnacle said:


> Having missed the tide sailing from the loading berth we moored at a riverside layby, I went ashore after tea to phone home and went into the lounge of a nearby hotel for a glass of beer. As I was leaving to return to the ship I heard a shout and it turned out this fellow was the proprietor, he said that some sailors in the bar had informed him who I was and said that he thought I should know that the pilot who had recently left the bar had consumned *fourteen* measures of spirits. Whether the sailors had prompted him to advise me or whether it was of his own concerns I did not know. It was about three hours before we were due to depart seawards. When I came back aboard I noticed that the pilot's cabin door was closed. This happened about fifty years ago in the UK.
> Now fellow members, what would you have done if you had been in my shoes ?.


Hmm - I Can't work that one out.
50 years ago it was you were in that pub.
Yet only 35 years of hindsight - in the "reply post" #13 above.
What happened in the 15 years between ? 
Something a bit fishy about that.
Are you drinking by any chance. ?


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## oldseamerchant

To take the focus away from Pilots but remaining on the main theme how many of us were involved in accidents (collisions/groundings) caused by our fellow 'officers' drinking habits. I can recall several. With the relatively recent usage of 'joint enterprise' how would we all fare. Not sufficient to counter 'joint enterprise' with 'blind eye' maxim.


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## joe732

oldseamerchant said:


> To take the focus away from Pilots but remaining on the main theme how many of us were involved in accidents (collisions/groundings) caused by our fellow 'officers' drinking habits. I can recall several. With the relatively recent usage of 'joint enterprise' how would we all fare. Not sufficient to counter 'joint enterprise' with 'blind eye' maxim.


OSM

Were the collisions/groundings caused by your fellow 'officers' drinking habits referred to above before or post STCW 95?


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## oldseamerchant

joe732 said:


> OSM
> 
> Were the collisions/groundings caused by your fellow 'officers' drinking habits referred to above before or post STCW 95?


To be specific I'm talking about the general culture/regime found aboard British ships in the 50/70s, and therefore well before STCW 95.


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## joe732

OSM

Was the regime/culture on board Flags of Convenience ships better or different in your experience?


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## oldseamerchant

I was being specific. You are introducing FOC so you must have a contrary view.


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## joe732

I was being specific also, hence the reference to 'your experience'.


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## oldseamerchant

oldseamerchant said:


> how many of us were involved in accidents (collisions/groundings) caused by our fellow 'officers' drinking habits.


Again.


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## joe732

OSM

If you really wish to be specific, please try a search on the forum for Captain Bill.

You remind me very much of him. ( and various other user names that he used to post under)


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## oldseamerchant

Interesting. Do you have anything constructive to add to the thread?


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## joe732

Thanks Bill (Applause)


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## jmcg

joe732 said:


> Thanks Bill (Applause)


Are you suggesting that CAPTAIN Bill D has returned?

Oh my gawd I hope not! 

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## oldman 80

WilliamH said:


> Nothing! You did not know if the pilot had been drinking, if he was drunk the Captain would realise that he had been drinking when he appeared on the bridge for departure .


Revelation 19
[1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
[2] For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great *****, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
[3] And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
[4] And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
[5] And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
[7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
[8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
[9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
[18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
[21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


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## oldman 80

R651400 said:


> You got a touch of the John Knox, OM80?


NO not at all, at least not to my knowledge ?
Jennie Geddes on the other hand ?- well perhaps, but beefed up enormously - nuclearised even perhaps.
(Sad)


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## oldman 80

oldseamerchant said:


> To take the focus away from Pilots but remaining on the main theme
> 
> 
> 
> how many of us were involved in accidents (collisions/groundings) caused by our fellow 'officers' drinking habits.
> 
> 
> 
> I can recall several. With the relatively recent usage of 'joint enterprise' how would we all fare. Not sufficient to counter 'joint enterprise' with 'blind eye' maxim.
Click to expand...

Well in my entire career at sea in the UK Red Ensign merchant navy
no such incident occured on any ship I was on.
Drunkeness was not tolerated, and where it did occur the consequences would be severe.
As master, at sea, I myself never retired until well after midnight, and always had a good close up "sniff" at the 12 - 4 watchkeeper before "turning in" myself. 
They got used to it, and most even showered before arriving on the bridge at midnight.
Actually, come to think of it they usually smelt pretty good - we used Palmolive on board.


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## oldseamerchant

oldman 80 said:


> Well in my entire career at sea in the UK Red Ensign merchant navy
> no such incident occured on any ship I was on.
> Drunkeness was not tolerated, and where it did occur the consequences would be severe.
> As master, at sea, I myself never retired until well after midnight, and always had a good close up "sniff" at the 12 - 4 watchkeeper before "turning in" myself.
> They got used to it, and most even showered before arriving on the bridge at midnight.
> Actually, come to think of it they usually smelt pretty good - we used Palmolive on board.


Interesting OM80. Consider yourself a lucky man. I am sure others will not be so fortunate as you. Lets see how the thread develops from those who have actual bridge experience relating to this.


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## jmcg

Perhaps the title should be changed to:-

*Question for Old Men only*


Get a life man, cut out the trolling and attempts to deceive.

J


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## oldman 80

You guys are "Alcohol paranoid' it seems.
The only incident I recall where a ship was severely damaged and a shore facility as well was caused by mechanical failure resulting from human error caused by excessive fatigue.
Fatigue was a far greater contributor to accidents than alcohol - and the industry knew it. Alcohol was a convenient allegation/excuse and probably still is. Not in every case of course.


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## oldman 80

R651400 said:


> Apols to thread originator for digression.
> John Knox 16th century plonker that calvinised Scotland.
> John Knox 20th century "jock-speak" rhyming slang for something dreaded by all seaman after a good night ashore.
> Can be also used when opponent sinks a long and lucky putt on the golf course.


John Knox a "plonker" - well I don't know - I was not around in those days, so I wouldn't like to comment.
I'm not familiar with the 20th Century "jock speak" either - which part of "Jock Land" would that be.
The golf course John Knox - now that does ring a bell from the past.
I haven't heard it for decades though.
You live and learn on this web site - Do you Not.


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## oldman 80

jmcg said:


> Perhaps the title should be changed to:-
> 
> *Question for Old Men only*
> 
> 
> Get a life man, cut out the trolling and attempts to deceive.
> 
> J


Hmm I see.
"Trolling" - please explain. It appears to be "internet related" although I have no idea about the meaning.
"Attempts to deceive" - Please explain.
It appears to me that if a thread doesn't go your way entirely you come up with some outrageous inuendo, and you "Imply" too much.
You sound like a second rate Lawyer to me. 
In fact I do not think I like you at all - indeed you may even be a John Knox type from the 16th century - if that is what he was ?
If you don't want the answer - Then Don't ask the question in the first place .


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## trotterdotpom

OM80, I don't think jmcg's post was aimed at you. However, I did start to lose track after Revelations ....

John T


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## jmcg

OM80

Let me help you out.

The comment was not directed at you - but another.

Trolling means using behaviour that is meant to intentionally anger or frustrate someone else in order to provoke a response. Please do not worry - like you I had to ask- a very helpful Sparkie helped me out by explanation.

No- I'm very relaxed about thread progress - save for when a deceitful person habitually misleads others.

I'm not a lawyer - never have been. 

No need to "like me"- I have enough "fans" and will manage without your admiration.(Wave)(Wave)

Sorry - I will have to look up John Knox types and see if I can fit the bill.

Hope this helps you out!

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## oldman 80

oldseamerchant said:


> Interesting OM80. Consider yourself a lucky man. I am sure others will not be so fortunate as you. Lets see how the thread develops from those who have actual bridge experience relating to this.


Yes I might well be a lucky man - and for sure others would have been less fortunate, you can be fairly certain of that.
There is always some sick deviant creep lurking around somewhere is there not ?
I now find myself having to caution members in participating in debates as there are individuals out there who it appears have acess to the control mechanisms of this site and use them for their own deviant purposes - at least that is how things appear to me. 
I THOUGHT only moderators would have access to the control mechanisms - I don't think that is necessarily the case anymore.
In any case just who is the creep making casting such inuendo around on the bridge and with what motive. 
I don't know what it's like nowadays but if what I am viewing in this thread is what seafaring has come to then god help the poor buggers at sea.
I know what I'd be doing with this jmcg steamroller guy if I found him on board on my bridge carrying on the way that he is, - I'd tell him in no uncertain terms, get off my vessel now, and if you are not off it in 2 minutes, I'll have the police remove you.
Could this be P.S.C. at it's worst or is it the norm ?
The guy appears to be a freek, in my view, from where I am sitting. 
A "John Knox" for sure, but whether of the 16th or 20th century variety, - I remain undecided at this time.

I suppose the "*Question*" now becomes,
Which kind of "John Knox" is this jmcg guy ?
Is he a plonker or has he got the pox ?
Take care guys !!!!!!
Not that it really matters, they usually go together in any case - at least they did in my days at sea. 
(Wave)


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## oldseamerchant

oldman 80 said:


> Yes I might well be a lucky man - and for sure others would have been less fortunate, you can be fairly certain of that.
> There is always some sick deviant creep lurking around somewhere is there not ?


Well thats for sure. I recall several incidents were all on board were well aware of a junior officers habits and on one occasion covered up a mishap which ultimately led to a CTL of a sister ship


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## jmcg

Now where is that "ignore" button?

To all my other "fans(Wave)(Wave)" - I will be away for a few days.
BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## Cisco

oldseamerchant said:


> Well thats for sure. I recall several incidents were all on board were well aware of a junior officers habits and on one occasion covered up a mishap which ultimately led to a CTL of a sister ship


I didn't know that Elwood Mead was managed for Kaisers by Ludwigs...
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=653


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## oldseamerchant

Cisco said:


> I didn't know that Elwood Mead was managed for Kaisers by Ludwigs...
> http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=653


I did not know that either.


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## chadburn

Is a little bit of history repeating itself, were Wanstead and a certain individual one of the same? look's like it by the bit of "buttering up" in the post's highlighted by Cisco.


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## oldseamerchant

chadburn said:


> Is a little bit of history repeating itself, were Wanstead and a certain individual one of the same? look's like it by the bit of "buttering up" in the post's highlighted by Cisco.


Anything useful to say?


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## joebuckham

this is just a little like 'spot wallie'


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## oldseamerchant

It does not have to be if people would just address the post rather try and be so damn smart. We are talking about peoples experiences of drink induced accidents.


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## chadburn

oldseamerchant said:


> Anything useful to say?


YES, I am retired, my computer belong's to me not any employer. Of course we covered for those who over indulged, usually they were grafter's when sober.


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## oldseamerchant

chadburn said:


> YES, I am retired, my computer belong's to me not any employer. Of course we covered for those who over indulged, usually they were grafter's when sober.


Interesting! Thanks for that.


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## WilliamH

oldman 80 said:


> Yes I might well be a lucky man - and for sure others would have been less fortunate, you can be fairly certain of that.
> There is always some sick deviant creep lurking around somewhere is there not ?
> I now find myself having to caution members in participating in debates as there are individuals out there who it appears have acess to the control mechanisms of this site and use them for their own deviant purposes - at least that is how things appear to me.
> I THOUGHT only moderators would have access to the control mechanisms - I don't think that is necessarily the case anymore.
> In any case just who is the creep making casting such inuendo around on the bridge and with what motive.
> I don't know what it's like nowadays but if what I am viewing in this thread is what seafaring has come to then god help the poor buggers at sea.
> I know what I'd be doing with this jmcg steamroller guy if I found him on board on my bridge carrying on the way that he is, - I'd tell him in no uncertain terms, get off my vessel now, and if you are not off it in 2 minutes, I'll have the police remove you.
> Could this be P.S.C. at it's worst or is it the norm ?
> The guy appears to be a freek, in my view, from where I am sitting.
> A "John Knox" for sure, but whether of the 16th or 20th century variety, - I remain undecided at this time.
> 
> I suppose the "*Question*" now becomes,
> Which kind of "John Knox" is this jmcg guy ?
> Is he a plonker or has he got the pox ?
> Take care guys !!!!!!
> Not that it really matters, they usually go together in any case - at least they did in my days at sea.
> (Wave)


Take it easy oldman they are just winding you up.


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## Anchorman

Trouble with this smell test of officers breath in one of the earlier posting is that it can be a flawed assumption.
Last year I did a for better words a pier head jump relief. The foreman steveodore had got a whiff of what he thought was alcohol on the duty mates breath. He reported it to port authority who instigated a breath test on the crew. All 30 crew passed including the duty mate unfortunately the Master was very slightly over and was arrested.


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## joe732

Anchorman said:


> Trouble with this smell test of officers breath in one of the earlier posting is that it can be a flawed assumption.
> Last year I did a for better words a pier head jump relief. The foreman steveodore had got a whiff of what he thought was alcohol on the duty mates breath. He reported it to port authority who instigated a breath test on the crew. All 30 crew passed including the duty mate unfortunately the Master was very slightly over and was arrested.


I know someone who was wrongly assumed to be smelling of alcohol.
Turns out it was diabetic related.
Maybe he should have used Palmolive.


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## oldseamerchant

Anchorman said:


> Trouble with this smell test of officers breath in one of the earlier posting is that it can be a flawed assumption.
> Last year I did a for better words a pier head jump relief. The foreman steveodore had got a whiff of what he thought was alcohol on the duty mates breath. He reported it to port authority who instigated a breath test on the crew. All 30 crew passed including the duty mate unfortunately the Master was very slightly over and was arrested.


To take the measures OM80 suggested tells me he probably had concern about his officers habits. I would suggest the officer being relieved should have had an obligation to inform the Master of such concerns.


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## joe732

Anchorman said:


> Trouble with this smell test of officers breath in one of the earlier posting is that it can be a flawed assumption.
> Last year I did a for better words a pier head jump relief. The foreman steveodore had got a whiff of what he thought was alcohol on the duty mates breath. He reported it to port authority who instigated a breath test on the crew. All 30 crew passed including the duty mate unfortunately the Master was very slightly over and was arrested.


I wonder if that Master was of the smell test variety.

At least there now seems to be a way of weeding drunken 'old men' out.


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## oldman 80

oldseamerchant said:


> To take the measures OM80 suggested tells me he probably had concern about his officers habits. I would suggest the officer being relieved should have had an obligation to inform the Master of such concerns.


Well actually that is not quite right but it is not all that far off the mark.
It was a practise I adopted and stuck to - it simply got the message across to all, and yes even the very excellent guys, - DON'T do IT.
It worked - at least 95% + of the time.
The other 5% - well no worries - it was dealt with immediately - that was on Red Ensign vessels. FOC presented other problems entirely. had I stayed on them for long I might have taken to the bottle myself. When that scenario loomed over the horizon, - clearly it was time to get out - right out altogether.
Tear up a career just like that - it's bad news when you are deck. Engineers can find work elsewhere - if they are any good.
With FOC and Offshore Management the problems still did not lie with the majority of ships staff, it lay with the Managers and owners, and perhaps even the charterers thrown in. Under such cir***stances, when the Master starts *thinking* of turning to the bottle, then don't be suprised if others on board do.
Sometimes however that's just the way they like it - Chaos and Carnage on board - there's money in that, - particularly if scrap prices are low, and they're near to insolvency or already there.
It becomes the absolute "nightmare" scenario then.


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## trotterdotpom

R65: "...John Knox 16th century plonker that calvinised Scotland."

These days he'd use "stainless zeal".

John T


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## trotterdotpom

I don't think I would have hung around long if the Old Man kept coming up and sniffing my face!

John T


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## joe732

trotterdotpom said:


> I don't think I would have hung around long if the Old Man kept coming up and sniffing my face!
> 
> John T



Could be worse, he might have wanted to sniff another orifice.


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## oldman 80

jmcg said:


> OM80
> 
> Let me help you out.
> 
> The comment was not directed at you - but another.
> 
> Trolling means using behaviour that is meant to intentionally anger or frustrate someone else in order to provoke a response. Please do not worry - like you I had to ask- a very helpful Sparkie helped me out by explanation.
> 
> No- I'm very relaxed about thread progress - save for when a deceitful person habitually misleads others.
> 
> I'm not a lawyer - never have been.
> 
> No need to "like me"- I have enough "fans" and will manage without your admiration.(Wave)(Wave)
> 
> Sorry - I will have to look up John Knox types and see if I can fit the bill.
> 
> Hope this helps you out!
> 
> BW
> 
> J(Gleam)(Gleam)


Well thanks for the explanation of trolling - (internet style)'
I appreciate that, as I have hitherto had no idea what the term meant other than in the strictly Maritime Sense.
Therefore once again I say, it's amazing what can be learned on this site.
With regard to your "*Helping me out*" as you put it.
*No Man* - I've come across your type before - if I do "*go out*" as you put it, it will be on my terms, because *I want to*, not because you want me to.
Now let me be perfectly clear, I do appreciate you have at least explained the term (internet) trolling to me, I've often wondered what it meant.
As for other matters - no I don't like you at all in this forum (or thread), - so you've got two minutes precisely to *Get the Hell off my ship, * and I'll have you arrested if you aren't. 
*GOT IT* ?


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## Sister Eleff

OM80, OSM and you too jmcg - please cease from winding each other up, play nice. You are distracting from an important issue under discussion. If you wish to hurl insults at one another, do it by the private message facility kindly offered by the site.


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## oldman 80

trotterdotpom said:


> I don't think I would have hung around long if the Old Man kept coming up and sniffing my face!
> 
> John T


Why not ?
My guys got used to it quite quickly and most even came to like it - a bit of a yarn after midnight and I always got a cup of coffee out of it.
Lets face it, they didn't see me too often alone, and besides I quite liked them - well most of them anyway.
(Sad)


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## oldman 80

Sister Eleff said:


> OM80, OSM and you too jmcg - please cease from winding each other up, play nice. You are distracting from an important issue under discussion. If you wish to hurl insults at one another, do it by the private message facility kindly offered by the site.


It's ok nursie - I don't think you need to worry too much about it.
No one is winding me up, I am too old for that carry on anymore, and every day is a bonus for me, as indeed it is for everyone when you come to think of it.
I think steamroller mcg knows what I mean - he has good purpose perhaps but not in this forum or thread (My ship), *but elsewhere* - well that's a different kettle of fish.
(Ouch)


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## oldman 80

R651400 said:


> So by that as master at sea we can assume in charge of your ship 24/24 personal consumption of alcohol was taboo?


Assume what you like - it makes no difference to me.
Get drunk though, and that would be very much on the cards until the next port, ( but rather personnel, as opposed to personal.)
Bar closed. tap stopped. Might open it again when new guy joined, but there again, might not.


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## Dickyboy

All equipment should be fit for purpose at the time of use, and I guess that includes pilots. If in doubt, then that equipment shouldn't be used. Tact and diplomacy shouldn't be used in such cases. A positive decision should be made, and not a wait and see how he performs when underway. 
Some people who are drunk can appear perfectly normal, and appear to make rational decisions that could end up being disasterous.
The old saying "When in doubt, fires out" comes to mind.
If one needs the expertise of a pilot, then is in a tricky situation to some degree anyway.
I don't know much about Skippering, but I do know quite a bit about drinking, and the effects of alcohol on the system from a personal point of view.
No one who is drunk on the job, or appears to be so deserves any favours.


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## lakercapt

At the the original question as posed by Binnacle. "What would you do??"
On one occasion when picking up the pilots (2) at Esqumains in winter when, because of ice conditions and the floating navigational aids had been removed I observed that one pilot was under the influence (he had major problems climbing up the companionway and staggered about on deck).
I told the other pilot to tell him to get to bed and not come near the bridge. Now we were only one pilot and the mate on watch to navigate which we were not supposed to do but to wait until another pilot could be brought out to the ship would have caused an unacceptable delay.Not to mention lots of explaining.
It is approximately 10 hours pilotage to Quebec City and by that time the pilot that had been to bed appeared on the bridge to get his trip ticket signed. I refused to do it and told them I would only sign it and note the fact that I considered him unable to perform his duties.
That went down like a lead balloon and word was passed that I was a difficult guy to deal with. We were very regular in this pilotage district and I had to explain myself to several of is colleagues before they got the message. I might also say that this section of the pilotage that mates and master had done on many occasions and could have done it without a pilot but the rules have to be complied with. It is an awkward position to be in and requires a great deal of diplomacy and tact.
(something I have been known to lack!!!)


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## Binnacle

A pilot boarded a BP tanker bound for Hounds Point. On introducing himself the pilot light heartedly said to the master "ah ha captain you're all dressed up for the Eskimo ball". The master who was in uniform was wearing a black bow tie and a fur hat. He refused the pilot's services and demanded another pilot, alleging that the pilot was drunk. Another pilot boarded and the vessel proceeded. When the pilot explained to the master that the pilot who had disembarked was stone cold sober, and had been aboard the cutter for a couple of days, the master refused to believe him and stated that another witness, the third mate, was also of the opinion that the pilot was drunk. Happily when a complaint was received and inquiries made the pilot was completely exonerated This is an example of mistaken judgement and a master devoid of humour.


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## Hugh Ferguson

oldseamerchant said:


> One must always remember that the Pilot is there to assist and therefore in an advisory capacity only. Sure, there are a handful of authorities around the word where they will vary this (Panama etc) but come that accident and lets see how they stand up. Pilots brought to book for negligence are less than a handful.
> Remember one thing. As Master you are on your own and until you have occupied the position you will never realise the responsibilities and stress that can attach.


 I remember a situation when a pilot colleague was prevented from going to a ship by a fellow pilot. He was called to account and had his licence confiscated, for good! 
Very sad, his wife had already left him and his career and life, when still a youngish man, was in ruins.

(In my time as a Trinity House pilot there had been three pilots in our division who lost their licences-for the same reason- and were gone for good!)


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## oldman 80

Binnacle said:


> A pilot boarded a BP tanker bound for Hounds Point. On introducing himself the pilot light heartedly said to the master "ah ha captain you're all dressed up for the Eskimo ball". The master who was in uniform was wearing a black bow tie and a fur hat. He refused the pilot's services and demanded another pilot, alleging that the pilot was drunk. Another pilot boarded and the vessel proceeded. When the pilot explained to the master that the pilot who had disembarked was stone cold sober, and had been aboard the cutter for a couple of days, the master refused to believe him and stated that another witness, the third mate, was also of the opinion that the pilot was drunk. Happily when a complaint was received and inquiries made the pilot was completely exonerated This is an example of mistaken judgement and a master devoid of humour.


(Applause)

That's brilliant - I like it.
Sounds so true to BP as well.
IMHO
(Jester)


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## Barrie Youde

In my own time as a Liverpool pilot I lost count of the number of occasions when I met a shipmaster stinking of alcohol on his own bridge; and at least one occasion when, through alcohol, he was incapable of reaching his own bridge. On one occasion I remember a Mate drinking vodka, straight from the bottle, on the bridge as we were making our way down Crosby Channel.

Specifically I remember an occasion at Eastham when a ship was due to sail from QEII Dock and information was given that some of the crew, including the Master, were in the Eastham Ferry Hotel. I legged it up to the hotel and was greeted with cries of "OK, Pilot, we're coming now." Within about 30 minutes we were on our way to sea. When I was leaving the ship at the Bar, I realised that my hat was missing. The Mate said, "Did you leave it in the Master's room?" I went to the Master's room and found him sound asleep in his bunk, wearing my hat!

All of this was more than twenty-five years ago. The recent Union Moon incident at Belfast is unfortunate, but it has to be said that in terms of sobriety things have improved greatly since those days. Did I ever report a drunken shipmaster? No. Did it ever occur to me to do so? No. Should I have done so? Ask me another.

VITAL AND LITTLE KNOWN

Vital is our body. Little are we known.
Children of the statute Acts. Subjects of the Throne.
Independent serving. Thus we watch and wait. 
Do you want a pilot? We are here to navigate.

Older than all politics. Some might wonder why?
The first to say Good-morrow and the last to say Goodbye.
To have the conduct of a ship, belonging not thereto.
This is what a pilot does. It’s what he’s trained to do.

Called to action by the Crown, all those years ago,
Triggered by the premise that a pilot ought to know
What to do where others don’t; and thus to save much loss.
Vital, are we? Little known? Thus we bear our cross.

Grateful for our privileges. Independent serving.
Authorised by statute: therefore nought can be un-nerving.
Licensed for the ultimate in vessels of all sizes.
Vigilance the watchword. May there never be surprises.

Vital is our body. Little are we known.
Children of the statute Acts. Subjects of the Throne.
Free to speak. Obliged to do so. That is what we’re there for.
Let this be your answer when it’s questioned, “Why?” and “Wherefore?”

BY
09.03.2013


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## reefrat

The thread seems to have wandered a bit off course towards the foul ground of Calvinism,,However any report from crew members delivered by a publican to the master that may result in delaying the sailing time is very suspicious,, perhaps there were "entertainments" on shore the crew were reluctant to leave


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## Barrie Youde

#73

Agreed. Let him who is without sin cast te first stone.


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## oldman 80

Barrie Youde said:


> In my own time as a Liverpool pilot I lost count of the number of occasions when I met a shipmaster stinking of alcohol on his own bridge; and at least one occasion when, through alcohol, he was incapable of reaching his own bridge. On one occasion I remember a Mate drinking vodka, straight from the bottle, on the bridge as we were making our way down Crosby Channel.
> 
> Specifically I remember an occasion at Eastham when a ship was due to sail from QEII Dock and information was given that some of the crew, including the Master, were in the Eastham Ferry Hotel. I legged it up to the hotel and was greeted with cries of "OK, Pilot, we're coming now." Within about 30 minutes we were on our way to sea. When I was leaving the ship at the Bar, I realised that my hat was missing. The Mate said, "Did you leave it in the Master's room?" I went to the Master's room and found him sound asleep in his bunk, wearing my hat!
> 
> All of this was more than twenty-five years ago. The recent Union Moon incident at Belfast is unfortunate, but it has to be said that in terms of sobriety things have improved greatly since those days. Did I ever report a drunken shipmaster? No. Did it ever occur to me to do so? No. Should I have done so? Ask me another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VITAL AND LITTLE KNOWN
> 
> Vital is our body. Little are we known.
> Children of the statute Acts. Subjects of the Throne.
> Independent serving. Thus we watch and wait.
> Do you want a pilot? We are here to navigate.
> 
> Older than all politics. Some might wonder why?
> The first to say Good-morrow and the last to say Goodbye.
> To have the conduct of a ship, belonging not thereto.
> This is what a pilot does. It’s what he’s trained to do.
> 
> Called to action by the Crown, all those years ago,
> Triggered by the premise that a pilot ought to know
> What to do where others don’t; and thus to save much loss.
> Vital, are we? Little known? Thus we bear our cross.
> 
> Grateful for our privileges. Independent serving.
> Authorised by statute: therefore nought can be un-nerving.
> Licensed for the ultimate in vessels of all sizes.
> Vigilance the watchword. May there never be surprises.
> 
> Vital is our body. Little are we known.
> Children of the statute Acts. Subjects of the Throne.
> Free to speak. Obliged to do so. That is what we’re there for.
> Let this be your answer when it’s questioned, “Why?” and “Wherefore?”
> 
> BY
> 09.03.2013
Click to expand...

(Applause)

Once again Barrie - that's just fantastic.
The Maritime Bard you must be.
Better even than Tam O Shanter,
for sure. 
(Thumb)


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## Barrie Youde

Many thanks, OM80.

You are very kind!

BY


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## Barrie Youde

On another occasion I joined an Icelandic ship at Bromborough Dock at about 8pm on a perfect midsummer evening. Arriving at the bottom of the gangway I was met by two sailors assisting a young lady, wearing a flimsy summer dress, to negotiate the treads of the gangway on her way ashore. One female arm was across the shoulders of one sailor and her other arm was likewise across the other sailor, with the toecaps no doubt being worn out of her high-heeled shoes.

On going aboard, I went to the Master's room, where he and his wife made me most welcome, in an atmosphere not unlike a vicarage tea party. All was highly respectable. We went to the bridge, for sailing. We put out to sea, as normal, and it soon became clear that there were several other ladies on board. There was a party continuing on the bridge. Almost at the Bar, I was standing on the wing of the bridge when there was a particularly loud shriek of laughter from Mrs Captain in the wheelhouse. She came rushing out to tell me, "Oh, Mister pilot, you remember ven ve voss sailing from den quay and dat lady had to be helped into her taxi?"

"Er, yes"

"Und you see Erik, now, der jung AB who is at der veel?"

"Yes"

"Vell, Erik needs to blow his nose. He pulls his handkerchief from his pocket, UND IT VOS DAT LADY'S TROUSERS!" 

Happy days!


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## jmcg

Sister Eleff said:


> OM80, OSM and you too jmcg - please cease from winding each other up, play nice. You are distracting from an important issue under discussion. If you wish to hurl insults at one another, do it by the private message facility kindly offered by the site.


Sis.

It is not my style to wind anybody up as suggested.

I have merely responded to comments directed at me that in essence are pure and utter nonsense. OM80 "doesn't like me" - he wants the police to run me off his bridge. Well, I have some information that he might like to digest. 

It is this.

Save for one "old man" I had the displeasure in sailing with (he was RNR and he flew the Blue Ensign on his Fyffys M Class), I got on remarkedly well with other MMs. The guy in question was a loner, he worried himself sick. He took alcohol. It made him worse. There was a story that if you paid him a reasonable sum he would worry for you. I did not care too much for him as he had the awful infliction of standing behind the helmsman just to "watch how he was steering." I was uncomfortable with that. 

As for all of the others - well I am sure they considered me to be a delightful character to have on their bridge or other places. 

This guy wants me run off , arrested without charge and cast into a dungeon- simply because he doesn't like me!! Come on now sis? . Even a "second rate lawyer" is worthy of better treatment! This is John Knox punishment.

I am concerned about OM 80- it is not good for him to get too excited about steamrollers {sic} or former Prime Ministers. Perhaps a chill trip out as 2nd mate on Wandering Star to the local inn might help him loosen up.

Now back to the thread - yes I have seen Masters and Officers under the influence of drink - not for me to decide whether they were drunk or incapable.

A drunk troll - now that would be something!!

BW Sis

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## jmcg

oldseamerchant said:


> Well thats for sure. I recall several incidents were all on board were well aware of a junior officers habits and on one occasion covered up a mishap which ultimately led to a CTL of a sister ship


What ship was that OSM? 

Do let us know!

J


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## Samsette

What do you think of that new pope, eh?(*))


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## jmcg

A fine choice!

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)


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## Cisco

A Italian Jesuit from BA.... ? At least he will know something about dealing with corrupt regimes and organisations.


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## Barrie Youde

I wonder how the Kelpies feel about it?


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## woodend

Happy days recalled. I remember bringing a big ACT boat into Port Elizabeth which was relieving one of the big SA box boats for some reason. I boarded about 06:02 first job in and we were tied up by 06:50. 'Nice job! Would you like a drink Pilot' asks the Master? Thanks Cap. 'A black coffee with one sugar please'! I replied. Off he went muttering 'why can't you drink Scotch like the rest of them. Now I'll have to call a Steward'! I wandered back to the Pilots Wardroom which was just across from the gangway and made my own coffee, 14:00 was still a long time away when I was due off duty.


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## joe732

oldseamerchant said:


> To take the measures OM80 suggested tells me he probably had concern about his officers habits. I would suggest the officer being relieved should have had an obligation to inform the Master of such concerns.


What about the officer being relieved having concerns about the Master's habits?

Who would he inform?

We know the type of Master, some of them still think their master under God.

Thank God those days are gone.


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## joe732

Where is OSM?

Off on a voyage perhaps?


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