# What is this?



## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

In 1972, the inter 2nd engineer of _Windsor Castle_ asked me if I wanted a centre punch. I did, and he gave me this, and I have used it regularly for over 40 years. I am fairly sure that he said it was a broken needle for the fuel injector system, The right hand side had been broken off, and filed down. Every time I use it, I tend to think of the _Windsor Castle,_ and have got to wondering what role this part actually played. I have searched for fuel injector needles on Google, and this seems more in keeping with a diesel engine, and I am thinking it looks a bit small for the steam engines of _Windsor Castle._ I don't know if the ship had smaller diesels for auxiliary uses. 
Bob


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

Shipbuilder said:


> In 1972, the inter 2nd engineer of _Windsor Castle_ asked me if I wanted a centre punch.
> Bob




Made them in school at Metalwork Shop. I guess 2nd year, centre punch. On of the other items we made was a 'gap gauge'. I've never seen anything named like a 'gap gauge' but that is what we told to make!


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

That is what I use it for. It did not start life as a centre punch. It was part of the engineroom equipment. As far as I can remember, he said it was part of a fuel injector that had broken. He ground the broken right hand side down flat, and told me that they make very good centre pucnhes.
Bob


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## Tony Morris (Oct 7, 2006)

Certainly looks like a diesel fuel injector needle valve. Possibly from a small generator or diesel driven fire pump or lifeboat engine.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Thanks, Maybe someone from the _Windsor Castle_ will tell us exactly what. I have very little knowledge of ship's engines, but it does seem a bit small for the main engines, but looks very similar to diesel injector needles found on Google. I had forgotten about the lifeboat engine. I have no idea what the emnergency generators were powered by, but wouldn't be surprised if they were diesels. 
Bob


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

Fuel Injector nozzle needle valve from the genys Should not be used as a center pop libel to splinter when hit.(too hard)


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## Tony Morris (Oct 7, 2006)

Used many over 40 years, never had any problems. Purpose made ones went blunt fairly quickly.


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

Tony Morris said:


> Used many over 40 years, never had any problems. Purpose made ones went blunt fairly quickly.


All that work shop practice gone to waste.Remember the first thing you made was a centre punch with all them colours and why it was made from carbon steel.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

When he gave it to me, he did say that one had to be careful about it splintering if hit too hard, but as I only use it on aluminium, only a light tap is required. If I need to mark steel, I use a much heavier genuine punch.
Thanks for replies.
Bob


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

This is what put it in my mind today. Was making this radio chassis (still in the engineering stage). It is all aluminium. The top plate is blue because it still has its plastic protective coating on it, until I have drilled and punched all the holes. It is just held together temporarily at the moment. I bolted the front and back angles on starting with the centre holes. Then, I drilled the end holes, and finally, cut the projecting angle bar off the ends level with the top plate. I used a small hobby bandsaw to cut the aluminium. 
Bob


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## Tony Morris (Oct 7, 2006)

A.D.FROST said:


> All that work shop practice gone to waste.Remember the first thing you made was a centre punch with all them colours and why it was made from carbon steel.


Sorry to say that SSMTC never taught us that, we were only sent to a tool shop behind the market square to buy the punch, inside & outside calipers, set square and 6 inch stainless steel rule.


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## Bill Morrison (May 25, 2013)

In the good old days buying tools could be rather costly, so you would learn how to convert discarded files etc. into useful tools with the help of the friendly blacksmith who would shape and temper them in whale oil or water depending on the hardness required.


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

I am old enough to remember when Britain produced Rabourne chesterman for measuring and Moore and wright for most other things.Now the brands are owned by Draper made in Korea a load of crap


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

I have something by Rabourne chesterman, but can't think what it is offhand. I have looked at all my steel rules, and it is none of them. I do use a vice that is over 100 years old, plus several hand tools that I have been using for 60 years. My Unimat SL lathe I have had for 44 years, and it was 2nd hand when I got it for £69 in Fareham. All original parts apart from one chuck that wore out several years ago, and wouldn't grip anything. Got a new (2nd hand) chuck from USA.
Bob


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Rabone and Chesterman merged in the 1960s, before then only one name was marked on their tools etc so you can tell if it is an old one. They are now part of the US Stanley tools company, but I don't think Stanley use the names any more.

Moore and Wright - Now part of the UK Bowers group, still making micrometers.


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

I had a Rabone and son linen tape chain measure inclosed in a real leather wind up case. 
It belongs to my partner's father and I don't believe that it has ever been used. Birmingham made, before the amalgamation with Chesterman.
The linen was reinforced with fine brass mesh that is indescernable and a haszard as one lad found when he threw a similar tape over powerline to establish the ground clearance and got a good jolt.
I have passed it on down the family line where it will remain unused for evermore.

Bob


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Bedford Vanadium spanners made in Sheffield (not England or EU ) , or King Dick spanners. I think Rabone Chesterman was Sheffield also. Then there was all your cutlery made in Sheffield. Whats there now?

I have a couple of pintles from injectors, will be Ruston genny size injectors, not lifeboat, far too thin. Yes make good centre pops.
Like Frosty, as an apprentice at the traing school, made a centre punch, scribing block, learning how to scrape with engineer's blue chequer pattern. Later on scraped main and bottom end bearings on steam trawler engines after remetalling and boring, undersize crankshaft pins and bearings to suit.
The blacksmiths used to shape a 1 1/2 " flat file to a cow mouth scraper. Looked similar to a mushroom but flat with an 1/8 " edge. Bottom half of main bearings were scraped to engineers blue off the shaft and top halves to leads to get the clearance. Great fun and experience.
We made some Foot Prints (plumbers tools before Stilsons arrived). Either somebody swopped the block with teeth on or I filed the lead on the teeth facing wrong way, needless to say they are useless.Both jaws were case hardened MS so could not be re filed.

We carried our tools in a steel locked toolbox ( well the fitters labourer did). Talking to a neighbour who is ahgv mechanic and he said his tool kit cost £30k, takes a bit of believing, but they all want the latest tool these days, all paid for on the never never, perhaps why.
We very rarely used socket sets, just rings and open enders and good flogging spanners, 2 1/2 lb hammer, or 1/4 hammer. On steamship bearings it was a 1/2 hammer and a 28 pounder on Prop nuts ( left that to the labourers).


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## Bill Morrison (May 25, 2013)

Shipbuilder you started this thread enquiring about a simple home made tool. It expanded into reminiscing about the many companies which made tools of various types. I wondered what happened to them as I can recall many famous names. Presto. Dormer Etc. Etc.
While looking on the internet for information on an engineering co. I came across this web site a few years ago. 
Grace's Guide To British Industrial History.
I don't know if any on this thread has used this site but you can spend days researching all those old companies we used to know.
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

There were a lot Bill, but many have probably been swallowed up in mergers or via take overs these days. Hand tool brand name I recall from the Dockyard loan tool store for specialist items were Bonney and Bluepoint flogging ring spanners, Starret and Moore and Wright micrometers, Creastaloy and Crescent big shifters, Yale pull lifts etc. Machine tool makes were prolific then with Asquith, Churchill, Denham, Colchester , Do-All, etc. Then there were the tool steel makers , Balfour and others now superseded by tip tools made of ceramics. Many trade names escape me and it would be interesting to see how many still exist from those early times.

Bon


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## Rosels (Dec 30, 2013)

And now an iconic engineering company in NZ is going into liquidation, A & G Price, part of the original CPD group along with long gone Wm. Cable ltd in Wellington. Many an apprentices tools were made from scrap parts from the ships in port forged by the old blacksmith. Great times at Cables and the Jubilee floating dock


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

Yes Rosels, this is a big loss to NZ's engineering skills. The original AAnd G Price was established 149 years ago and grew to be able to build the majority of the country's steam locomotives that served for many years. Over the years they amalgamated with dry dock and ship repair company William Cable and then Downer construction to become the CPD group. A Brieley take over saw much asset stripping and deterioration and a bitter end for many. A familiar story .
I spent time as manager of CPD engineering in Auckland during the times of the ill fated NZ Navy's ill fated purchase of off shore Patrol craft from Brook Marine UK in the 1970's, a debarked of the Navy's own making.

Bob


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## spongebob (Dec 11, 2007)

One of the biggest engineering industry retrenchments in Britain over my working life is that of electric motor manufacture. I can remember names such as Brooks, Higgs, Brush, English Electric, Lawrence Scott, GEC, Metropolitan Vickers and more. When I retired GEC were linked with Chinese manufacturer Teco. 
I guess that this is a familiar story across many areas of British manufacture.

Bob


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

Little need for a big box of tools nowadays. When a "Makers Man" comes on board he has a screwdriver and a laptop, the days of King Dick are over. Long live the PLC. (Not).


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## Rennie Cameron (May 25, 2005)

*Fuel Valve Spindle*

It is the "spindle" from a Fuel Valve (Injector) which looks like a Harland and Wolff engine. I suspect it originally has a mitred end (now ground to a point), with a flat end. When new (or overhauled) they were ground face to face with the internal of the nozzle. The nozzle is a single part with the spray holes included. I am sure you can find a drawing of this type and you will see it at the end of the injector where the nozzle unit is held on by a cap. I used to work in Kincaids and spent a year of my apprenticeship in the Fuel Valve shop. We seldom converted the spindles to punches as they do tend to be brittle. Hope this helps


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## berbex (Feb 17, 2013)

Looks like the 'pintle' from a diesel injector. Something like this: https://blog.genosgarage.com/wordpress1/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/72i12.jpg

Used to regularly dismantle and lapp.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Rennie Cameron said:


> It is the "spindle" from a Fuel Valve (Injector) which looks like a Harland and Wolff engine. I suspect it originally has a mitred end (now ground to a point), with a flat end. When new (or overhauled) they were ground face to face with the internal of the nozzle. The nozzle is a single part with the spray holes included. I am sure you can find a drawing of this type and you will see it at the end of the injector where the nozzle unit is held on by a cap. I used to work in Kincaids and spent a year of my apprenticeship in the Fuel Valve shop. We seldom converted the spindles to punches as they do tend to be brittle. Hope this helps


During my apprenticeship dealing with all sorts of makes of medium speed engines, the pintle and guide were never lapped together, but pintle was machine ground to 1/2 ° different to the lapped face in the pintle guide, thus acheiving a knife edge seat. We had a dummy pintle for lapping the guide and used jewellers rouge only on the tip, making sure no abrasive was on the parallel part of the guide, otherwise you lost pressure.
And with that info and a bus pass now I can get into town free.


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## david freeman (Jan 26, 2006)

Shipbuilder said:


> In 1972, the inter 2nd engineer of _Windsor Castle_ asked me if I wanted a centre punch. I did, and he gave me this, and I have used it regularly for over 40 years. I am fairly sure that he said it was a broken needle for the fuel injector system, The right hand side had been broken off, and filed down. Every time I use it, I tend to think of the _Windsor Castle,_ and have got to wondering what role this part actually played. I have searched for fuel injector needles on Google, and this seems more in keeping with a diesel engine, and I am thinking it looks a bit small for the steam engines of _Windsor Castle._ I don't know if the ship had smaller diesels for auxiliary uses.
> Bob


just wonder is this a fuel valve needle from a common rail system, and not a jerk pump system??? I am a mere steam man, all those sulzer, doxford H&W, stork men out there, plus the other diesel men.


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## Brushy (Dec 2, 2007)

*injector needle*



Shipbuilder said:


> In 1972, the inter 2nd engineer of _Windsor Castle_ asked me if I wanted a centre punch. I did, and he gave me this, and I have used it regularly for over 40 years. I am fairly sure that he said it was a broken needle for the fuel injector system, The right hand side had been broken off, and filed down. Every time I use it, I tend to think of the _Windsor Castle,_ and have got to wondering what role this part actually played. I have searched for fuel injector needles on Google, and this seems more in keeping with a diesel engine, and I am thinking it looks a bit small for the steam engines of _Windsor Castle._ I don't know if the ship had smaller diesels for auxiliary uses.
> Bob


It sure is an injector needle. I still have one --from a Bryce injector fitted to a Allen 16 vee engine on Christmas Island. The original CAV nozzles were not all that good and were replaced by Italian made ones over time. Bob Broome.


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## double acting (Sep 14, 2008)

It is indeed the pintle from a C.A.V. injector, probably from an Allen generator, too small to be from the injectors used in a Doxford. Please don't tell me all Doxfords had a mechanical fuel valve. The Daru had C.A.V. injectors, the seal was formed by a difference of 0.5 degrees between the pintle and the body and lapping should only be used as a last resort, in an emergency.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

double acting said:


> It is indeed the pintle from a C.A.V. injector, probably from an Allen generator, too small to be from the injectors used in a Doxford. Please don't tell me all Doxfords had a mechanical fuel valve. The Daru had C.A.V. injectors, the seal was formed by a difference of 0.5 degrees between the pintle and the body and lapping should only be used as a last resort, in an emergency.


No, the 'P' type Doxford had CAV type injectors and I assume the 'J' type as well.
The old mechanical type injectors were a 3rd Engineers worst nightmare , when you had 2 six cylinder ME's , that's 24 fuel valves. The mechanical gubbins was a 2 man lift job. 

Now the B&W Double bangers would have had 4 fv's/ unit, I assume, 6-8 cylinders , twin screw, were they common rail or CAV type.

I spent a week or two as an apprentice ashore in the Injector/fuel pump overhaul department, so was told about the 0.5°, in fact was able to overhaul a needle and nozzle whilst there.


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## Duncan112 (Dec 28, 2006)

sternchallis said:


> No, the 'P' type Doxford had CAV type injectors and I assume the 'J' type as well.
> The old mechanical type injectors were a 3rd Engineers worst nightmare , when you had 2 six cylinder ME's , that's 24 fuel valves. The mechanical gubbins was a 2 man lift job.
> 
> Now the B&W Double bangers would have had 4 fv's/ unit, I assume, 6-8 cylinders , twin screw, were they common rail or CAV type.
> ...


Yes, J type had hydraulic fuel valves - Finn Orbeck did a mod for Bank Line that enabled the fitment of B&W type valves with detachable tips, the needle being a separate cartridge ( http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Zq-0r86V7iE/UefnM3dS8SI/AAAAAAAAApM/ZunDWV91ANc/s1600/Untitled.bmp ). Unfortunately we had a Chief Engineer who thought he knew better and fitted tips that would, on a B&W fire into the centre of the combustion space - in this instance they fired downwards onto the piston crown - eventually burning them out and causing the lub oil to enter the combustion space - lovely!


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## Barrie Youde (May 29, 2006)

What is this thing, called love ? (Cole Porter.)

What is this thing called, love? (Eric Morecambe.)

(Submitted on behalf of the Punctuation Society. I'll get my coat.)


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

Once had a visit to Kincaids engine works and was shown around their fuel injection room. We were shown how they achieved and measured surface finish on their injector needles with diamond wheels and diamond paste. Also the differential angle between the needle and guide to achieve point contact. Most impressed with the technology and the medical cleanliness of the workspace.

Back to sea.
Main engine exhaust getting darker, exhaust temp rising etc. No probs, change fuel valve....... Few spares. No fancy equipment. Lap the needle and guide together using Brasso, check if the Second has any jewellers rouge in Fort Knox. No.

Another lesson in marine engineering theory and practice. And we all got home safely and lived happily ever after.


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## Engine Serang (Oct 15, 2012)

I'll get my coat.

Do. And don't phone us Mr Wise, we'll phone you.


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## Dave Lambert (Oct 26, 2013)

I remember when you always used to have a M.E fuel valve nozzle assy in your boiler suit pocket, wrapped in a clean rag. You used to take it out and give the needle a rub when you had a free moment and then put it back. You also had a little kit in a wooden box for servicing the nozzles. Soon became history though! The valves still worked though, after cleaning, lapping and re-assy. Engines more forgiving in those days with lower peaks and less power per unit. In later years, I remember telling my E.R guys not to bother anymore with maintenance. Box 'em up and send ashore for a proper overhaul.


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## Rennie Cameron (May 25, 2005)

Further to my comments; I seem to recall they may have been from Four stroke engines but certainly opposed piston. After these came the fuel valves with the detachable nozzles. The nozzles in question were machine ground and handed over to us where we ground in the mitre face to face with decreasing carborundum paste. This then produced a face to face of about 0.75 mm at the outer edge. They were cleaned by a rag and a 12in long stick then dipped in paraffin and air hose applies. The diameter was produced by the turners. We did not grind the diameters!...only the touching face. The nozzle then had two pins fitted into the face which met with the fuel injector body; held the nozzle in place; screw up the cover and hammer up. It was then put onto the pressure pump and tested to injection pressure. These were large bore slow speed engines of Harland B&W design built under licence at Kincaids. I left Kincaids (circa 1966) long before fancy hydraulic operated valves arrived. I may just clarify we called them "valves" but now everyone refers to injectors!.....same thing.l


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Whatver it is, it definitely came from the _Windsor Castle_ that was a twin-screw steam turbine ship, but I have no idea if they had auxiliary diesel machinery as well, maybe generators, I just don't know! It was given to me aboard the ship by the inter 2nd engineer who said he had just put a new one in!
Bob


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## lazyjohn (Mar 3, 2011)

Shipbuilder said:


> In 1972, the inter 2nd engineer of _Windsor Castle_ asked me if I wanted a centre punch. I did, and he gave me this, and I have used it regularly for over 40 years. I am fairly sure that he said it was a broken needle for the fuel injector system, The right hand side had been broken off, and filed down. Every time I use it, I tend to think of the _Windsor Castle,_ and have got to wondering what role this part actually played. I have searched for fuel injector needles on Google, and this seems more in keeping with a diesel engine, and I am thinking it looks a bit small for the steam engines of _Windsor Castle._ I don't know if the ship had smaller diesels for auxiliary uses.
> Bob


Windsor had three very large Harland & Wolf medium speed diesel generators. We used to climb into the crankcases to work on the bearings and hammer test nuts etc. That is the very tip of one injector needle, back end has been ground off at some time. Generators were H & W reverse engineered, near copies, of Sulzers with bits of near B & W's thrown in so as to avoid patent problems. Mind you, I haven't worked on the type since 1974/6 so am willing to be found wrong. In my day Terry Norris was the Inter 2nd Eng. I seem to remember all Inter 2nd Eng's were Motor men getting in some steam time and could often be recognised by their grey boiler suits.


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

Thanks for the info. At the time, the inter-2nd who gave it to me was Ken Challice, a definite steam man! I went down below with him on one occasion in Cape Town to watch one of the generator commutators being skimmed - very interesting. I was there from 2nd July 1970 to 8th May 1972. Can't remember when Ken left, but his replacement showed no inclination to mix with the rest of us on the bridge deck, so never even got to know his name!
Bob


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

For all of you who use a B&W centre, punch, particularly with a B&B thumb I found this in a 1947 mag.(read very carefully) of a M&W centre punch. Very useful in a car crash, train crash or stealing a car. Good for breaking wind screens etc. its what a fireperson uses.(Thumb)


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

A.D.FROST said:


> For all of you who use a B&W centre, punch, particularly with a B&B thumb I found this in a 1947 mag.(read very carefully) of a M&W centre punch. Very useful in a car crash, train crash or stealing a car. Good for breaking wind screens etc. its what a fireperson uses.(Thumb)
> View attachment 174313


Excellent piece of kit. I have one and have used it for the 'alternative' purpose as well as the proper use. 
When entering a locked vehicle it is best practice to go for a quarter light. All an onlooker sees is you putting your fist to the glass which suddenly explodes and disappears.

PS - Just checked; mine is an Eclipse.


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## sternchallis (Nov 15, 2015)

Whats a B&B thumb?


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

Shipbuilder said:


> I have something by Rabourne chesterman, but can't think what it is offhand. I have looked at all my steel rules, and it is none of them. I do use a vice that is over 100 years old, plus several hand tools that I have been using for 60 years. My Unimat SL lathe I have had for 44 years, and it was 2nd hand when I got it for £69 in Fareham. All original parts apart from one chuck that wore out several years ago, and wouldn't grip anything. Got a new (2nd hand) chuck from USA.
> Bob


I must be a little bit younger than you. I do have a 6inch but I do not use it as a rule.(I was told you can tell a good rule by running your nail across the markings to see they are stamped in)


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## Shipbuilder (Jun 30, 2005)

I have a number of steel rules of various lengths, picked up on car boot sales over the years. Some of them have oval cut outs in them, that have always puzzled me. I recently came across a one foot ruler with "Rabone" written on it. I placed the others over it one by one, lining up the measurements and found that the word Raborne then appeared in the cut outs, so it looks like someone has gouged the names out for some reason. Don't know how they did it, because the cut-outs are very neat!
Bob
PS, I am 73.


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## A.D.FROST (Sep 1, 2008)

Shipbuilder said:


> I have a number of steel rules of various lengths, picked up on car boot sales over the years. Some of them have oval cut outs in them, that have always puzzled me. I recently came across a one foot ruler with "Rabone" written on it. I placed the others over it one by one, lining up the measurements and found that the word Raborne then appeared in the cut outs, so it looks like someone has gouged the names out for some reason. Don't know how they did it, because the cut-outs are very neat!
> Bob
> PS, I am 73.


Now all made in China
PS There's just a Chesterman between us I'm 69 with sea weed between my toes.


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## Mad Landsman (Dec 1, 2005)

Shipbuilder said:


> I have a number of steel rules of various lengths, picked up on car boot sales over the years. Some of them have oval cut outs in them, that have always puzzled me. I recently came across a one foot ruler with "Rabone" written on it. I placed the others over it one by one, lining up the measurements and found that the word Raborne then appeared in the cut outs, so it looks like someone has gouged the names out for some reason. Don't know how they did it, because the cut-outs are very neat!
> Bob
> PS, I am 73.


Two possibilities occur to me (there could be more!)
1. Rabone may have sold 'seconds' which were not top quality and had the name punched out, in bulk.
2. Rabone did supply tools etc for WD use. Maybe the crow's foot was marked over the maker's name and also had the whole marking punched out prior to disposal.


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## Bill Morrison (May 25, 2013)

Shipbuilder said:


> I have something by Rabourne chesterman, but can't think what it is offhand. I have looked at all my steel rules, and it is none of them. I do use a vice that is over 100 years old, plus several hand tools that I have been using for 60 years. My Unimat SL lathe I have had for 44 years, and it was 2nd hand when I got it for £69 in Fareham. All original parts apart from one chuck that wore out several years ago, and wouldn't grip anything. Got a new (2nd hand) chuck from USA.
> Bob


Hi Bob. You started this thread with a query about a centre punch made from an injector needle and it has expanded into a toolbox trawl.
I found your article on the Unimay SL lathe very interesting as I have something rather similar. Around the late 1970's I purchase a Myford ML2 lathe through the Exchange & Mart price £130 + £30 carriage. It had flat belt drive which slipped a lot so converted it to vee. pulleys with link belting, sadly I have never really put it to the use which I bought it for. I also never considered the amount of hand tools I have amassed building up my workshop until the last few days going through my tool boxes.
Bill


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