# Unknown Ship



## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

My father was sent to the far east at the back of WW2, about Jun 45. The attached photo gives little to the untrained eye on the name of the ship and my searches have not been fruitful.

Can anyone help in identifying the ship's name?


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## jg grant (Nov 22, 2007)

Welcome, Bonkers to the site. You never know, there are so many clued up people on this site. The oval plaque on the front of the bridge will have the information you require including the name and number and builders yard. How to enhance it is another matter.
All the best.


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## Ystradgynlais (Nov 2, 2013)

Welcome Bonkers - It could be Clan Chisholm/GFBY, my first trip to sea around the same date: it was a DEMS ship (Carried approx. 20 Naval Ratings) If the photo was taken by your father at the time, it has port and starboard Gun Turrets! Also it was one of the first ships to have Radar (Operated by RN personnel) The voyage was from London to Calcutta. There is a Photo of the ship in the Gallery. What was the name of your father ?


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

Thank you. Unfortunately the actual picture is only about an inch & half and as with others of this types, it is one blurry mess when zooming in. Nether the less, your direction is helpful, again thank you.


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

Thank you for the name Clan Chisholm but there are slight differences. Through your direction I have found a site that seems to have pictures of most of the Clan ships. Whilst I do not know about ships or even their design, there are similar features in the older ones. I will update you accordingly when I finally get through them all. PS. the route fits nicely.


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## seaman38 (Mar 16, 2016)

Ystradgynlais said:


> it was a DEMS ship (Carried approx. 20 Naval Ratings) QUOTE]
> 
> Just a note DEMS had nothing to do with whether a vessel carried naval ratings or not. It was literature for Defense and Emergency Measures for Shipping carried in a sealable lead weighted bag and contained various do***ents to be opened when reaching certain latitudes and longitudes whether in convoys or not with latest instructions and precautions and radio frequencies to be used in that area in an emergency situation, the information was restricted to Masters. I was a Marine Supt for a British Company in the 1960's and our vessels still carried these bags and had to be periodically checked by the Master of the vessels when receiving instruction to do so and in the office copies (by myself), as confidential information updates were received on a regular basis, this carried on into the 70's. Don't know when it ceased as I left UK in mid 70's to become a Mar Supt for a Swiss Company


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Ivan, I think the context Bonkers is referring to is Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships [DEMS] which would carry naval ratings as well as army personnel all as part of the crew having signed on the articles of agreement.

Regards
Hugh


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## seaman38 (Mar 16, 2016)

Hugh MacLean said:


> Ivan, I think the context Bonkers is referring to is Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships [DEMS] which would carry naval ratings as well as army personnel all as part of the crew having signed on the articles of agreement.
> 
> Regards
> Hugh


Probably misread the context, but glad to be on the same ship with you again Hugh, Regards


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Feeling is mutual Ivan  (Thumb)
Regards
Hugh


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## Samsette (Sep 3, 2005)

We used to see busloads of gunners en-route Liverpool to HMS Queen Charlotte for gunnery training. That was on the Formby Bypass, circa 1944-45 and each buss had the letters DEMS on its destination thingy.
We also saw target towing planes (Skuas), that must have been flown by very courageous pilots.(Smoke) 

HMS Queen Charlotte was the former Lido at Ainsdale.


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## Ystradgynlais (Nov 2, 2013)

Thanks Hugh, I was beginning to doubt myself! I knew DEMS was an acronym for Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship - the Clan Chisholm was a DEMS ship - the crew totalled 100 (including a Doctor) On the return voyage from Calcutta, hostilities ceased and the ship was ordered to dump all ammunition. The 4.7 shells were encased in teak boxes, the Captain purloined the boxes and built a ship's garden in them!


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## samarah2 (Oct 1, 2012)

Bonkers, I'm quite certain that your Dad's ship is not Clan Chisholm. I've numerous photos of the Clan Chisholm of the wartime years and the bridge front is quite different. You can also see the top of the funnel above the wheelhouse, which is probably buff in colour. Clan Line vessels all had black funnel tops. As JG Grant pointed out the builder's plate would reveal all but no amount of enhancement is likely to help there. If you were able to find out who were the ship's owners, I would probably be able to identify her.


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

Samarah2, thank you for your confirmation. The Bridge front does seems to be unique and yes I have tried enhancing the plaque but that's a no go. Thank you for the offer of identification but unfortunately all I have is the photo and a time frame, which admittingly, could be a month either side of Jun 45. Again, thank you for your time looking at this, much appreciated.


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## seaman38 (Mar 16, 2016)

samarah2 said:


> . You can also see the top of the funnel above the wheelhouse, which is probably buff in colour. .


Don't think that is the funnel you can see, it is more than likely the protection cladding for the standard compass on the monkey island atop the wheelhouse, the protection for the navigator when taking azimuths and bearings in inclement weather, and it can be very inclement on the monkey island in a gale blowing you off your feet


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Was your father in the Merchant Navy? If so we could try records if he was a member of 
crew on that ship.
Rrgards
Hugh


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

Hugh, sorry my father was called up into the Army - RASC and the service records transcripts are rather scarce of info, expect, I know this was the ship he was on when travelling to India, or at least India Command. He would have only been 18 at the time. I have recently asked for a copy of the originals, which may help but I suspect this is more hope than anything else. Thank you for the thought.


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## samarah2 (Oct 1, 2012)

Seaman38, that's a good point you raised about the monkey island cladding but you can clearly see the curved shape at the top which could really only be the funnel. Apart from anything else most merchant ships of this vintage had tall funnels that would certainly have been visible from the aft end of the crew's fo'castle accommodation where this photo was taken. Bonkers, I will keep looking.


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

The best clue I can see in that photo is the pair of cranes at the after end of #2 hatch... not a very common arrangement 

Permanent awnings between wheelhouse and the bridgewing cabs suggest a ship employed in eastern service...

One of Paddy Hendersons maybe?


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## Ystradgynlais (Nov 2, 2013)

Bonkers original request has certainly raised some odd comments! and my original response that "It could be" the Clan Chisholm, based on Bonker's date and reference to the far east! which coincided with my first trip as 3rd R/O. samarah2 reference wartime Clan line ships should not apply to Clan Chisholm (There was a previous Clan Chisholm!) as from memory (which is a long time ago) it was only it's second voyage, since commissioning. Also, again from memory, was in battleship grey colour, with no company distinguishing marks. I doubt whether Bonkers photo,was of a wartime ship, as no Rafts are showing! I did question my own suggestion, as in the centre of the monkey island, there is a small curvature which may be the D/F Bellini Tosi Marconi loop whereas the ship, being a Siemens ship used the single loop Adcock & Brown system of D/F. Are the structures on each side of the monkey island, gun turrets?

The posts have brought back many memories which have remained dormant for over 70 years! Thanks Bonkers, hope you can find the information you are seeking.


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

I can see guns P & S above the bridge wings and a bit of a raft against the shrouds on the port side.... that combined with peacetime colours suggest very soon after August 1945... 

I also think the structure on top of the wheelhouse that is painted white is indeed the monkey island structure around the binnacle....

BI?


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## samarah2 (Oct 1, 2012)

I'm not sure about the "ODD" comments, Ystradgynlais, but the obvious armament certainly supports the fact that this was a wartime photo even if the ship was built well pre-war. Cisco's points about the bridge wing awnings are probably dead right and there's no doubt that the deck cranes are very unusual. Paddy Hendersons is a good suggestion as well. I'll look into it tomorrow as it's knocking off time here in Australia!


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## seaman38 (Mar 16, 2016)

samarah2 said:


> Seaman38, that's a good point you raised about the monkey island cladding but you can clearly see the curved shape at the top which could really only be the funnel. Apart from anything else most merchant ships of this vintage had tall funnels that would certainly have been visible from the aft end of the crew's fo'castle accommodation where this photo was taken. Bonkers, I will keep looking.


Not being pedantic about this samarah, but if you expand the picture and look at it through a powerful magnifying glass, you will see the top of a D/F loop poking out your funnel (which will never happen), also their is all-round morse light mast at stb'd aft of alleged funnel, if you look further you will see the top of a black funnel top abaft the all-round light, as said not being pedantic about this, just trying to help trace the correct vessel, rather than raising red herrings. 

Whilst I agree that in some instances the funnel can be seen when taking photos from the foc'le not all vessels had woodbine funnels, as have taken a few photos myself from that position and a lot depends upon what trim the vessel is in what the results of the picture are. But as always I stand to be corrected, rgds


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

If that is the top of a black topped funnel it is set well to stbd of centreline...

If the OP's father joined in the UK in (late?) June 1945 bound east it is possible that the photo was taken soon after early August .... and I know -from what my father once told me- that many ships went back to peace time colours as fast as they could...

That would explain why the guns are still in the tubs... she hasn't called at a port where they can be landed ashore...

Now here is a funny thing ... the heel of the port #1 derrick is where you would expect it to be... the heel of the other visible #1 derrick is on the centre line...


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## seaman38 (Mar 16, 2016)

Cisco said:


> If that is the top of a black topped funnel it is set well to stbd of centreline...
> 
> 
> 
> Now here is a funny thing ... the heel of the port #1 derrick is where you would expect it to be... the heel of the other visible #1 derrick is on the centre line...


As the photo was taken from the port side for'd the funnel would appear to be set to stb'd.

I sailed on six ships with four derricks all at the same end of the hatch served by only two winches, down the WCSA the stevedores used rope runners on the drum ends to discharge overside port and stb'd at the same time, the winches were left running continuously much to the electricians delight!. In Liverpool they used three of the derricks rigging the runner from the quay side derrick through a block on the warehouse to discharge the fore end of the hatch and the other two to discharge the aft end, again using rope runners on continuous running winches

You see some strange things at sea.


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

seaman38 said:


> As the photo was taken from the port side for'd the funnel would appear to be set to stb'd.
> 
> I sailed on six ships with four derricks all at the same end of the hatch served by only two winches, down the WCSA the stevedores used rope runners on the drum ends to discharge overside port and stb'd at the same time, the winches were left running continuously much to the electricians delight!. In Liverpool they used three of the derricks rigging the runner from the quay side derrick through a block on the warehouse to discharge the fore end of the hatch and the other two to discharge the aft end, again using rope runners on continuous running winches
> 
> You see some strange things at sea.


I would expect the funnel to look as if it was offset to port....

Moving right along..... years ago there was a 'need identified' photo here on SN with a ship that had 4 to a hatch.... each end... don't think it was ever solved....
The only ships I have seen with it were SS&A 'W's from the 40's.

Moving further along... I am thinking that maybe the OP's father sailed from the UK to India on a different ship... and then went coastwise on this one.... awnings set on the upper deck... dohbi lines rigged... someone still has their towel out to dry... looks like a 'country ship' rather than a 'home boat'.

Asiatic S.N.Co.?


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

seaman38 said:


> As the photo was taken from the port side for'd the funnel would appear to be set to stb'd.
> 
> I sailed on six ships with four derricks all at the same end of the hatch served by only two winches, down the WCSA the stevedores used rope runners on the drum ends to discharge overside port and stb'd at the same time, the winches were left running continuously much to the electricians delight!. In Liverpool they used three of the derricks rigging the runner from the quay side derrick through a block on the warehouse to discharge the fore end of the hatch and the other two to discharge the aft end, again using rope runners on continuous running winches
> 
> You see some strange things at sea.


Moving a bit off topic.... I have a photo of Lautaro ( ex Glengyle, later River Swift )in my gallery... was she one of the ships you were on? My pic shows her alongside a meatworks somewhere down by Natales ...

While I can get into my gallery... I can't open individual photos....


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## samarah2 (Oct 1, 2012)

Just fired up the computer after a local fun run to find some great contributions from everyone since last night! Certainly I saw the top of the DF loop and the all round light, Seaman38, but I don't think you can be certain that these are actually within the boundaries of my 'funnel' or aft of it and the only funnel shaped object on the c/l is my 'funnel'! Anyway there's much conjecture here and the unusual bridge front layout, timber wheelhouse and deck cranes are going to be the defining points of recognition. I've already looked at thousands of other ships of the period and as yet have not discovered another that replicates what we can see in the photo. Will keep looking!


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## seaman38 (Mar 16, 2016)

Cisco said:


> Moving a bit off topic.... I have a photo of Lautaro ( ex Glengyle, later River Swift )in my gallery... was she one of the ships you were on? QUOTE]
> 
> Vessels were :-
> 
> ...


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## samarah2 (Oct 1, 2012)

Seaman38, I was with Lamports as a cadet and later with Richard W Jones and China Nav. You're right about timber wheelhouses of course, but this one is unusual. I think the general bridge front layout, as well as the cranes of course, will be what eventually gives her away.


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## kewl dude (Jun 1, 2008)

If you scan that picture at a high DPI you may be able to read that builders plaque.

I scanned a photograph measuring one inch high x 1-1/2 inches wide at 4800 DPI providing an 8192 x 4862 pixels image. See attached images:

Hayden-Family-Business.jpg (137.6 KB) 
20151022.jpg (131.0 KB)

Greg Hayden


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## samarah2 (Oct 1, 2012)

Hi Kewl Dude! Thanks for the tip, but all I get is a mish mash! I'm afraid the original has only the clarity of the age and the builder's plate's a long way from the camera. Would that the identification had been that easy!


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

All, thank you all for your tips, hints and very knowledgeable insights in what to look for. I appreciate the thought, the picture was scanned at 4800 but unfortunately the quality of the original isn't that good, although, if the dark plague wasn't in the shade it probably would have helped. My original thoughts were that he sailed from Briton to India (India Command) directly but thinking on the comments, I have nothing to indicate he didn't take two ships to get there, all I know is the journey(s) would have been Jun 45 with an outside chance of plus or minus 1 month. It was remis of me not to state that I had looked at many ship photos on-line but nothing yet and hence my original question to this forum. Being a complete novice in this area I have learned a great deal, thank you all. I will keep looking and particularly for the items that have been noted as unique but in the meantime all inputs assisting this search will always be welcome and very much appreciated by my family.


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## samarah2 (Oct 1, 2012)

Bonkers, don't feel remiss about not telling us specifically of the month as we're simply trying to match your photo with a ship with the same bridge front layout that was afloat in 1945. It's gratifying to know that you're looking through ship photos on the web, but I know how difficult a task that is for you. I have an enormous file of photos of ships from sail to the present day that I'm gradually working through matching ship names of the correct age with British shipping company vessel listings available on www.theshipslist.com. It's not a quick job, but I'm hopeful of eventually getting there!


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

Bonkers, do you know where exactly your father ended up in India?

I can envision your father going out to Bombay or Calcutta in a 'liner' and then onwards to, say, Rangoon or Karachi on something like our mystery ship....


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## alaric (Feb 27, 2012)

Cisco said:


> I would expect the funnel to look as if it was offset to port....
> 
> Moving right along..... years ago there was a 'need identified' photo here on SN with a ship that had 4 to a hatch.... each end... don't think it was ever solved....
> The only ships I have seen with it were SS&A 'W's from the 40's.
> ...


What an interesting discussion developing around one old small photo.
The ship is most definitely not a SS&A Wai, which had a far greater beam and had 3 posts abreast, but only on the after hatches.
What about the laundry hanging out to dry?


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

Samarah2, thank you and I appreciate the patience. I have been to that site but with the quantity (as with this site) there is a high chance I missed something, especially as OC Home Command keeps wanting me to do other things. Ho hum.

Cisco, unfortunately I do not know if he changed ships during his outbound journey and is something I had not thought of before starting this thread.


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

alaric said:


> What an interesting discussion developing around one old small photo.
> The ship is most definitely not a SS&A Wai, which had a far greater beam and had 3 posts abreast, but only on the after hatches.
> What about the laundry hanging out to dry?


Quite so... that was just part of an off topic ramble that took us as far as Puerto Natales.....

Now a further thought.... I have had a pretty good looksee at a lot of pix of ships trading around India in peace time.... what if she is Hong Kong owned? Lots of them ended up trading as far away as the Med during the war years.....


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## John A. Aikenhead (Sep 8, 2009)

*Mystery Ship*

As one reader mentioned, the one thing that might help to identify this ship is the 2 Deck Cranes aft of the Foremast and in front of the Bridge. Not too many dry cargo ships featured cranes in those days, might help to narrow it down a bit.
Ex Chippie


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

Some KPM ships had cranes frd of the bridge... I imagine quite a few of them spent the war in eastern waters...


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

CISCO, Thank you for the steer. From this I have found another site to look at and busy reviewing their photos, nothing yet that matches.


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

Thank you all for your inputs on this thread. I now believe the ship to be the MS Tabinta but it would appreciated to have your expert eyes confirm this. The picture I'm looking at is the second postcard picture on this link.

http://www.stoomvaartmaatschappijnederland.nl/ms-tabinta/


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## Stephen J. Card (Nov 5, 2006)

No doubt about it.... unless there was a sistership! Here are two clear photos. The first photo, stern view, clearly shows the wartime crow's nest on the mizzen mast. It can clearly be seen on you original photo. The broadside photo, nice clear, shows all of the details.

Case closed!


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

*Stephen*,

Thank you. Yes there are sister ships or at least similar ones on that link given but there are subtle differences. The one thing missing in most of the Tabinta pictures is the window vent. I suspect these are early pictures, i.e. pre WW2. The link below has a picture which clearly shows a window vent has been fitted in or prior to 1946. It is amazing what you find once you have a name.

https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/memorix/6ecd387a-0ef5-3066-8fec-78d93fbcfc7d

*All*,

Thank you for all the inputs it has been most welcome and very interesting but most of all the identification of certain items helped me greatly. Yes case closed.

Again, thank you.


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## Hugh MacLean (Nov 18, 2005)

Good effort all round with the ship id.

You can download her movement card from the National Archives Kew for £3.50. The file is held in piece BT 389/43/100 you can cross refer them to those below from the convoyweb site.

Departed Pearl Harbor, May 9, 1945, Independent, arrived	Eniwetok, May 16, 1945	
Departed Eniwetok, May 20, 1945, Independent, arrived Ulithi, May 25, 1945	
Departed Ulithi, Jun 12, 1945, Independent, arrived Okinawa, Jun 17, 1945	
Departed Okinawa, Jun 28, 1945, Independent, 
Departed Saipan, Jul 4, 1945, Independent, arrived Pearl Harbor, Jul 14, 1945	
Departed Pearl Harbor, Jul 16, 1945,	Independent, arrived San Francisco, Jul 22, 1945	
Departed San Francisco, Aug 13, 1945, Independent, arrived Pearl Harbor, Aug 18, 1945	
Departed Pearl Harbor, Aug 23, 1945, Independent, arrived Eniwetok, Sep 1, 1945	
Departed Eniwetok, Sep 4, 1945, Independent	

Regards
Hugh


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

Hugh,

Thank you for extra notes on her movements but now I have a small problem with timelines. The Tabinta was in the Pacific at least between May 45 and Sep 45, probably even longer. This means my father did not travel to India in Jun 45 on the Tabinta. Given the ship in the picture is the Tabinta but it was in the Pacific and my father went to India in Jun 45, then the family info passed to me is incorrect, i.e. he sailed out on this ship. Can't wait to tell them they're wrong.

Knowing my father left India in Oct 46 for Singapore and then home in Dec 47, I can only assume it was during one of these trips he was on the Tabinta. For me, I suspect the journey home being the most likely.

Again, thank you for the movement card info. Hopefully they cover the new timeframe.


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

Well done all hands!!

A photo here of her painted grey http://www.usshelena.org/mstabinta.html of her in US service....released in Jan/Feb 46.

Which suggests to me that the original photo is post Jan/Feb 46 as she is back in peacetime colours...


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## Cisco (Jan 29, 2007)

A small point... the gun tubs above the bridge wings in our photo appear to be circular.... the tubs in the photo of Tabinta in the link posted by me just above ^^ appear to be square....

According to theshipslist.com there were a number of this class that survived the war.. Tabian, Tabinta , Talise, Tarakan, and Tawali.


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## Bonkers (Aug 6, 2018)

CISCO,

Thank you and given the facts above, I now agree my fathers picture looks like it is post war, something I can't wait to correct various family members with. 

I have looked at the other sister ships and I will bow to the experts but to my untrained eye, looking at the various subtle differences in the bridge front, i.e. the length the wheelhouse windows drop down to, the slight variations in wheelhouse & top portal windows and the slight variations in the position of the ships identification plate, leads me to believe the ship in my photo id the MS Tabinta. I appreciate things change over time but the picture in the link I posted at #43 clinches it for me.

Reference the tubs, they are circular at the front and back but have straight sides, thus they can look square or circular dependant on the photo. This I have seen on other MS Tabinta photos, sorry didn't save those links.


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