# Ship-handling question



## bobs (Aug 12, 2006)

I'll tell you a story but I'll try to keep it short.

In the 1980s, I was the technical editor of a well-known, weekly shipping magazine. My main job was to cover the 'nuts and bolts' of merchant ships, keeping the reader up-to-date with the latest ship technology. Yet I had never been a seaman or a marine engineer. 

Anyway, one day I was sent to Germany to see a new ship simulator, built by Krupp-Atlas Elektronik. This was an amazing bit of kit; a full-size ship's bridge mounted on hydraulic rams, just like an aircraft simulator, and with a huge, wrap-round video screen. 

After a demonstration, during which we experienced, all at the flick of a switch, a large container ship, a vlcc, a navy frigate, dead calm and a real seasick-makinq Atlantic gale, a volunteer was sought, to 'have a go'. I got volunteered by my mates because they knew I'd never done it for real so they were likely to get some laughs.

The ship was Hapag-Lloyd's then-new, 58,000gt twin-screw motor container ship 'Frankfurt Express' . The scenario: sailing down the Elbe.

After ten minutes of not running aground, colliding with another vessel or even clouting a channel marker buoy, they tried to liven things up by 'throwing things at me'. First, a fishing boat suddenly appeared dead ahead, collision inevitable. "Now what?" I was asked. 
"Blast on the horn. Where is it?"
"Right answer, nothing else you can do. But we haven't got one." Whereupon the fishing boat suddenly disappeared from the screen.
"That jetty half a mile ahead; go alongside!"
Hell's bells, we were doing about 15 knots at the time. Oh well! Both engines full astern in one throw of the lever. I'm told lots of you real ship drivers longed to do that! Of course, nothing much happens for ages, until the engines can overcome the "watermilling" screw(s) and get into reverse. 
So I tried a technique I learned in my days in the rowing club to make an 'emergency stop': full rudder one side or the other, then, immediately, before the head starts coming round, full the other way, repeating this procedure until the way comes off the ship. It worked on a 45ft long rowing 'four' and - at least on that simulator- it seemed to work just as well on that big box-ship.
I then had to make a fetch on the jetty, with no help from tugs, tide, wind or winches. Much to my own and everybody else's surprise, I managed it ,using just the bow thruster and the transverse thrust of the propellers - but that is another story. 
What I want to know is, would my emergency stop really have worked on a real ship? How would you real ship-drivers have made a crash stop like that? Everything else on that simulator was so life-like, yet the Germans reckoned at the time that my technique was " mmm! veree interesting!" Did I invent a new ship-handling technique that, perhaps, I could have had named after me? The Bob stop!!??


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

I am an ex-rower myself (40 odd years ago sadly!). As I recall, the standard way of stopping quickly involved angling the blades and forcing them downwards into the water - decrepitude has resulted in my forgetting the name of this action. I would not expect movement of the rudder of a four in full flight to have a great deal of effect. In the worst case, the failure of the rudder in a coxed four on the Thames would at worst lead to you going aground. 

I would also be interested to hear the expert view on what would happen in a large ship if you tried what you suggested. My gut feeling is that this manouevre would put enormous strain on the rudder and steering mechanism that would lead to at best shortening its life, and at worse rapid catastrophic failure. 

Maybe the simulator simply didn't know how to interpret what you did because nobody thought it would be attempted?

Brian


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## captainchris (Oct 29, 2006)

Basically Bobs, you should know the berth you are going on in advance. The vessel being twin screw, and presumably with bow thruster, you would not approach at that speed, however, you control the vessel by your twin engines and reduce speed, either turn the boat to meet the tide, or just leave her head to tide, and then put her alongside. Twin screw and thrusters is easy. In the old days, single screw and no thrusters was simple as well, just a case of good ship handling. It doesn't really matter if you have tugs etc, if you know ship handling, even without pilots and tugs, it is your own experience that counts.
Regards,
Chris


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## bobs (Aug 12, 2006)

Yes, Chris, everything you say is spot on but this was not a real situation. It was a crazy, make-believe one played out on a very sophisticated simulator. What I want to know is, could a ship be stopped effectively using the technique I described"
Regards
Bob


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## captainchris (Oct 29, 2006)

Basically, if you do full astern on both, no need for rudder, then see which way she goes, then apply a bit on which ever engine to stop the swing, and you should be OK!!! I seem to remember some one I met who left a rig North of Shetland, after using the after controls, handing over to the 2nd Mate to take her back to Aberdeen and forgot to change over to the forward controls. When they arrived in Aberdeen, he reduced speed approaching the berth only to find he was still going at 12+ knots. Slinging her back full astern, no response, he realised it was still on the after controls!! Quickly going on the after controls, he managed to pull her up and put her alongside. Everyone one said after that, "Flash B******d" after doing a really good tie-up, but nobody knew the full story at the time.
Regards,
Chris


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## Pat McCardle (Jun 12, 2005)

Strange one that Chris. How did he manage to steer let alone use auto if he never 'Hit the tit' to take control? A good yarn to spin in the Crown & Anchor though!!


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## bobs (Aug 12, 2006)

As I understand things, you can go from full ahead to full astern relatively quickly when you have a controllable pitch propeller or even, I suppose, when you have a unidirectional, medium or high-speed engine with a gearbox between it and the shaft. But in this crazy, simulator situation I found myself in, it was supposed to be one of the world's biggest, diesel-driven containerships of the time. 
The engines on Frankfurt Express were big, 9-cylinder 90cm-bore, low-speed, reversing MAN 2-strokes (MAN K9SZ90/160B, to be precise), each coupled directly to its own shaft and fixed-pitch propeller. To go from ahead to astern you had to stop the engine and then make it go round in the opposite direction. 
This, I have been led to believe, cannot be done instantaneously at higher speeds through the water because the forward motion of the vessel causes the propeller(s) to windmill or - more accurately - to watermill for a bit, lengthening the time the engine(s) will take to slow down and stop so that it/they can be reversed. 
On that simulator it seemed that the ship would definitely have overshot the jetty had I not tried that 'fishtailing' of the rudder, using it as a spoiler to get the way off the ship quicker so that the engines could take over by going astern. 
The technique apparently worked on the simulator. But the simulator is only as good as the people who programmed its computer. Would using the rudder as a brake work in a real situation? That's what I'm trying to ascertain.
Regards
Bob


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## JoK (Nov 12, 2006)

How fast did the rudder react in the simulatar? It wasn't instantaneous was it?

Was it programmed full over 35* to full over 35* in 30 seconds?

I would think that this kind of time delay would make impractical-but I am not a ship handler either.
All I could think was, oh my steering gear


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## Geoff Garrett (May 2, 2006)

Under routine cir***stances, fishtailing the rudder is a very good way to take way off a ship without using the engine and in a crash stop situation in the River Elbe, apart from dropping and dragging both anchors, what else could you have done whilst waiting for the props to have some effect in cavitating water. "bobs", you're a natural!


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## bobs (Aug 12, 2006)

JoK, it was a long time ago to remember but yes, it was probably about half a minute one extreme to the other but on that huge ship it seemed to take an age for the ship to react to the rudder. As I remember, I could get the rudder full one way and then the other without the ship starting to swing. I managed about three or four full-rudder applications before the engines finally started to get going astern. From what I could see on the wrap-round video screen, that use of the rudder did slow the ship down more quickly. Then, when the engines got going the whole bridge started vibrating and the sound effects, too, were just like the real thing. It was quite an experience; one which I came out of sweating buckets and knocking at the knees. Great fun. though - playing with a £millions toy!


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## JoK (Nov 12, 2006)

Simulators are better then Nitendo.
I had a blast doing mine.


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## bobs (Aug 12, 2006)

Thanks, Geoff, for those kind words but if I was a "natural", it wasn't without a bit of effort of my own part. 
As a "shipspotter" being chucked in the deepend to become the technical expert on a highly respected shipping industry magazine I had a lot to learn -fast. So I immersed myself for a while in seamanship manuals, technical papers on marine diesels, books on hydrodynamics (despite the association with water, they could make for some real dry reading) and, fortunately for this job, a book on basic shiphandling. 

I don't think I'm boastful by nature but I have been known to brag about the time I berthed the Frankfurt Express single-handedly and without any training or experience!

By the way, that simulator I was playing with back in about 1986, was heading for the Royal Australian Navy. With its help, the RAN hoped to reduce the amount of at-sea training their officers and ratings had to do before they could go out and drive ships for real on their own.

Cheers

Bob Scott


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## barnsey (Apr 19, 2007)

Yup Bob ... fishtailing the rudder is a recognised means of slowing her down, you were quite correct in doing it. The effect becomes less as she slows down of course and letting her wander a touch either side of the heading doesnt hurt either. They were very unkind springing that on you in the Elbe as the others have said ... normally she would be on Harbour revs everyone standing by and so on...

When I did simulator they gave us a play on the Houston ship canal which by all accounts is terrifying in real life when vessels pass one another. Anyway we were maiking a right mess of berthing and going down the canal. Then they put another meter of water depth .... different kettle of fish altogether. Swines !!!

Barnsey


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## tunatownshipwreck (Nov 9, 2005)

I wonder if they have a setting for Columbia River Bar?


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## bobs (Aug 12, 2006)

Never been to the Columbia River. Is the Bar a drinking-hole or a sandbank?
Bob


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## Pilot mac (Jun 28, 2005)

Bobs, simulators can be a useful tool but I would suggest that your instructor would have been better suited working for 'game boy'. He placed you in an unrealistic scenario but perhaps he had never been to sea either?

Dave


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## Orcadian (Jan 27, 2006)

Having been on a ship simulator course I was alwasy of the impression that you could put someone in a nightmare scenario and see what happened. Sounds like Bobs did what he thought was best and managed to get away with it. They are very good for what if scenarios and trying out things that you wouldnt normally get to do in real life. They have limitations but they are much better than they used to be and can be used to assess situations and are a very useful tool.


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## Hague (Feb 23, 2007)

Pilot mac said:


> Bobs, simulators can be a useful tool but I would suggest that your instructor would have been better suited working for 'game boy'. He placed you in an unrealistic scenario but perhaps he had never been to sea either?
> 
> Dave


Dave,
I am not believer in simulators. Nothing prepares you for the unexpected which all Pilots get used to. Incidentially, there is a new post on Jebsens which I know you will be interested in.


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

On a simulatr in New York (it was not very realistic) going down the "Seaway" at a very narrow and rocky part they programmed a complete engine failure and blackout.
What do you do.
Rang the general alarm and said repeat after me
Our Father etc.
Not the response they were looking for but there was nothing else to do as you are going with a very strong current and your chances of negating a major problem are nil.
Its too deep to anchor by the way.
Bill


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## Tony Crompton (Jul 26, 2005)

When handling large loaded bulk carriers up to 200,000dw I would invariably put the rudder hard over when I had stopped the engine, making tugs fast and approaching the berth. Watched the ships head like a ****ehawk and as soon as I could see movement put the helm hard over the other way. Doing this a few times did'nt half get the way off the ship before needing to come astern.

Think of the braking effect of a large rudder hard over with the engine stopped!! Much more controlled than an astern movement on the engine which came later in the manoeuvre.
--------------------------------
Tony C


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## tunatownshipwreck (Nov 9, 2005)

bobs said:


> Never been to the Columbia River. Is the Bar a drinking-hole or a sandbank?
> Bob


Oddly enough, no tavern owner has named their establishment Columbia River Bar, but there was once an underground newspaper that called itself the Clatsop Spit.
Both geographic points can be found at the mouth of the river, a rather tricky navigation even with two jetties.


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## Cap'n Pete (Feb 27, 2006)

I'll always remember what one captain told me just before I was promoted; 

A good captain is not one that can get himself out of an dangerous situation. A good captain is one that never gets himself into such a situation in the first place.

Ship simulators can be games for boys. However, the best simulators simulate real life which means that situations progress to the stage that they become dangerous - but only if you let them!


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## Hague (Feb 23, 2007)

Sounds like that may have been Capt Peter Daniel??


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## Pat McCardle (Jun 12, 2005)

Captain Hagar, ex Headlam's of Whitby, from South Shields college used to use the same phrase but for all bridge watchkeepers. Very good advice too.


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## captainchris (Oct 29, 2006)

When we doing our simulator around 10 years ago in Saudi Shields, a couple of dredger men were doing Dover Harbour, when they were berthing the alarm went out (in an English voice, but obviously Russian accent) that they had run aground. Seeing as they had dredged the berth previously to around 7m they said it was impossible, and the simulator was out of date. No the lecturer said our equipment is up to date!! Keep up with technology I say!
Regards,
Chris


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## benjidog (Oct 27, 2005)

So are the engineers among the responders to this thread saying that the proposed method of slowing down would not cause damage to the rudder and steering mechanism if done regularly rather than as a one-off in an exercise? I must say that I am surprised if this is the case.

Brian


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## bobs (Aug 12, 2006)

Brian, Working ships just ain't built with rudders that will break off if you use them too much. Modern racing rowing boats (as we discussed earlier) might be; but with them you have the extra braking and steering capability of the oarsmen rowing easy one side or "holding water" one, other or both sides (the latter to stop the boat). I'm feeling quite chuffed that the real professionals have told me I did the right thing in that simulator "game". Thank you, gentlemen, you have done great things for my ego!


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## Tony Crompton (Jul 26, 2005)

There's an old Pilots saying:-

"Any idiot can put way on a ship buit it takes skill and experience to take it off"
--------------------------
Tony C


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## Ventry (Apr 18, 2007)

Tony Crompton said:


> There's an old Pilots saying:-
> 
> "Any idiot can put way on a ship buit it takes skill and experience to take it off"
> --------------------------
> Tony C


Tony,

I remember it as simply:

New speed is easy to find. Old speed is difficult to lose!


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## Cap'n Pete (Feb 27, 2006)

Hague said:


> Sounds like that may have been Capt Peter Daniel??


It may well have been because I sailed with Capt Daniel on several occasions. I saw his photograph on the Blue Star website last week when he attended a reunion - I'm glad to say he looked very well!


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## smoothride (Apr 4, 2007)

There's a couple sayings we have in naval aviation that apply here more or less:

1) "There's old pilots, and there's bold pilots, but there's no old bold pilots. " It means that if you do stupid things, you won't live long enough to be an old pilot. 

2) "I use my superior judgement in order not to have to use my superior flying skills." This one often applies in simulators, where you are training to do things that are too dangerous to try in the airplane. 

Beers,
SR


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## Hague (Feb 23, 2007)

Cap'n Pete said:


> It may well have been because I sailed with Capt Daniel on several occasions. I saw his photograph on the Blue Star website last week when he attended a reunion - I'm glad to say he looked very well!


Peter,
Capt Peter Daniel is keeping very well and devotes a lot of his time to taking handicapped children on the canal boats based in Ellesmere Port.


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## lakercapt (Jul 19, 2005)

Ship handling is a skill that you can learn but there are also "naturals" that seem to manage with the ease that is surprising.
The tricks that work on one boat don't neccessarily work on another.
With modern boats with Kort nozzle and VPP is is possible to go from full ahead to stopped in just over three ships lengths using the kort nozzle to keep the heading.
Having docked many thousands of time it becomes second nature as we went to the same berths many times and knew what to expect.
When I say thousands I know many will question that but on occassion loading in Thunder Bay it was not uncommon to go to five elevators in one day. One occasssion I went to ten berths and at one we loaded less than 750kg. I was mifted and told the dispatcher that had I known thats all I would have sent a taxi.


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## Geoff Garrett (May 2, 2006)

The best definition of approach speed I have ever heard is that of "an old lady on a bicycle".


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## R.Philip Griffin (Jan 16, 2006)

I was with a Dutch Captain on a Smit-LLoyd AHST who showed me a very speccy stop from full sea speed [ahead]. The rudder went hard to stbd and the stbd CP was put full astern. Spectacular "destroyer turn" and ship stopped within 3-400 feet by going sideways. As the rig had been ahead of us and we had just entered the buoy pattern I needed an underwear change, but it did work.


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